Japanese War Crimes
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 07:04
Well, after reading several posts about the Holocaust, I find that nobody yet has mentioned anything about Japan and it's crimes against humanity being unreported.
Live disections of human beings, rapes, the murder of so many innocent people by unit 731. It rarely is ever mentioned in the western.
Nanjing's brutal massacres, Comfort Women, and Unit 731 are always ignored by west.
Nobody feels the pain of hearing our ancestors massacred, and it makes me feel their pain. It makes me angry because the world doesn't care about us. My Grandmother was murdered by Japanese soldiers, but somewhere I know that someone is laughing at my pain. The pain of Genocide.
I can't go on typing. I can't take it. Anyways, I am hear to ask, what do you think about the atrocities that the Japanese Empire commited against Asia?
Barringtonia
22-04-2009, 07:08
In South Korea they had the Hitler Cafe, adorned with Nazi memorabilia, the owner didn't really realise the significance.
It works both ways, we relate to that closest to us first.
EDIT: The Hitler Bar, close...
http://www.who-sucks.com/people/dining-with-hitler-in-asia-hitler-themed-bars-restaurants
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 07:09
In South Korea they had the Hitler Cafe, adorned with Nazi memorabilia, the owner didn't really realise the significance.
It works both ways, we relate to that closest to us first.
That is quite cruel, I heard that the Isreali and German consulate complained to have them close and they reopened.
Dragontide
22-04-2009, 07:10
Well they sure screwed up when they started harrasing US marines in China back then. But they did pay for it dearly later on in WWII when they were beaten to a bloody pulp and begging for surrender but we nuked them anyway.
Christmahanikwanzikah
22-04-2009, 07:10
And then the experiments that were performed on them in the name of Japanese imperialism...
Then again, Americans detained the all the Japs we could find so, again, it's not a one way street.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 07:12
In South Korea they had the Hitler Cafe, adorned with Nazi memorabilia, the owner didn't really realise the significance.
It works both ways, we relate to that closest to us first.
EDIT: The Hitler Bar, close...
http://www.who-sucks.com/people/dining-with-hitler-in-asia-hitler-themed-bars-restaurants
A large part of that I suspect is a cultural misunderstanding. The reverse of the swastika is a good luck symbol is Buddhism, and they are everywhere and on necklaces. So my guess is they(the customers) don't exactly understand what the fuss is about.
Garmidia
22-04-2009, 07:15
In South Korea they had the Hitler Cafe, adorned with Nazi memorabilia, the owner didn't really realise the significance.
:eek:
Gauthier
22-04-2009, 07:17
A large part of that I suspect is a cultural misunderstanding. The reverse of the swastika is a good luck symbol is Buddhism, and they are everywhere and on necklaces. So my guess is they(the customers) don't exactly understand what the fuss is about.
The Buddhist swastika and the Nazi swastika have opposite facings, just as a note.
Barringtonia
22-04-2009, 07:19
A large part of that I suspect is a cultural misunderstanding. The reverse of the swastika is a good luck symbol is Buddhism, and they are everywhere and on necklaces. So my guess is they(the customers) don't exactly understand what the fuss is about.
I suspect they know exactly who Hitler is and the role of the Swastika, it's just not that close to them in terms of impact.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 07:20
The Buddhist swastika and the Nazi swastika have opposite facings, just as a note.
That's what I meant by the reverse of.
It could be that no one mentioned Japanese war crimes in the Holocaust thread because the Holocaust doesn't include what was happening in Asia.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 07:22
I suspect they know exactly who Hitler is and the role of the Swastika, it's just not that close to them in terms of impact.
I haven't sat in a on a WWII history class in Korea so no idea.
Though Asians are often Asian centric in their history, with the exception of they have a good grasp of US history.
Garmidia
22-04-2009, 07:22
Well, if you set up a Unit 731 Cafe across the street you wouldn't be selling out to fast.
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 07:24
It could be that no one mentioned Japanese war crimes in the Holocaust thread because the Holocaust doesn't include what was happening in Asia.
That's not what I meant. I was trying to say that Americans and the West could care less about victims of Japanese War Crimes. Which, I think is because of Japanese Cultural influence like Anime making a positive impact in the west. People just don't think Japanese can be evil.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 07:26
Well, if you set up a Unit 731 Cafe across the street you wouldn't be selling out to fast.
I suspect few people in Europe or the US would know the significance.
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 07:28
I suspect few people in Europe or the US would know the significance.
This. Asians do know about the Holocaust... Perhaps there are heartless individuals who open SS restaurants and Auschwitz Fried Chicken, but they do have a fair amount of knowledge about the painful Holocaust.
Garmidia
22-04-2009, 07:29
I suspect few people in Europe or the US would know the significance.
Exactly.
Skallvia
22-04-2009, 07:29
I suspect few people in Europe or the US would know the significance.
only if you put Japanese War flags and blatantly show WWII pictures of Japanese people committing crimes....
Short of that, probably not...
Japan just panders to us too much for us to bitch about them, lol...
Barringtonia
22-04-2009, 07:30
People just don't think Japanese can be evil.
Well people of any nation can be evil.
We forget the global ties formed during the Cold War where former enemies, Japan and Germany, technically became the front line in the fight against communism.
I also feel people separate Germans from the Nazis and, similarly, separate Japanese from the Imperial Army.
Furthermore, I believe it would be a good step forward if the Chinese government stopped using anti-Japan rhetoric to tap into populist feelings in order to legitimize themselves.
It's less about commemoration and more about political ends these days.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 07:30
only if you put Japanese War flags and blatantly show WWII pictures of Japanese people committing crimes....
Short of that, probably not...
Japan just panders to us too much for us to bitch about them, lol...
And Koreans love their BMW's.
also saw imperial war flag here http://www.toonamifan.com/Images/Map_of_World_on_Japanese_Flag_RJ_War.jpg
represented in Toonami on cartoon network.
also the bar has Hitler pictures yes, but not war crime pictures.
So the hypothetical bar could get by with pictures of Japanese in Uniform and emperor Hirohito pictures, and be on the same level.
Milks Empire
22-04-2009, 07:30
Well, after reading several posts about the Holocaust, I find that nobody yet has mentioned anything about Japan and it's crimes against humanity being unreported.
Live disections of human beings, rapes, the murder of so many innocent people by unit 731. It rarely is ever mentioned in the western.
Nanjing's brutal massacres, Comfort Women, and Unit 731 are always ignored by west.
Nobody feels the pain of hearing our ancestors massacred, and it makes me feel their pain. It makes me angry because the world doesn't care about us. My Grandmother was murdered by Japanese soldiers, but somewhere I know that someone is laughing at my pain. The pain of Genocide.
I can't go on typing. I can't take it. Anyways, I am hear to ask, what do you think about the atrocities that the Japanese Empire commited against Asia?
Look at what Britain, Spain, France, and the successor states to their colonies did to three continents (North America, South America, and Africa) over a span of three hundred plus years. My own lineage is likely a result of the atrocities committed here. No one really talks about that either.
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 07:36
Well people of any nation can be evil.
We forget the global ties formed during the Cold War where former enemies, Japan and Germany, technically became the front line in the fight against communism.
I also feel people separate Germans from the Nazis and, similarly, separate Japanese from the Imperial Army.
Furthermore, I believe it would be a good step forward if the Chinese government stopped using anti-Japan rhetoric to tap into populist feelings in order to legitimize themselves.
It's less about commemoration and more about political ends these days.
This is true, but every Japanese I talk to always will deny unit 731. It is the opposite of Germany.
Skallvia
22-04-2009, 07:41
This is true, but every Japanese I talk to always will deny unit 731. It is the opposite of Germany.
Thats because they have the opportunity to, they wont be shunned by society by doing so...
Germans will...
Barringtonia
22-04-2009, 07:42
This is true, but every Japanese I talk to always will deny unit 731. It is the opposite of Germany.
Certainly different, Germany went through de-Nazification, Japan was reasonably spared, I think due to certain sensitivities over the Emperor, someone else might know why, or I could look it up online.
Asia has always been far more ambiguous over Hitler, while most certainly understand that the Holocaust was wrong, one has to remember that, before WW11, most of Asia was controlled by France and Britain, Hitler was seen as a strong unifier of Germany - something desired by many Asians - as well as someone who stood up to the Empires.
He wasn't the out and out enemy compared to how he was seen by the UK, France and. consequently, the US.
That's not what I meant. I was trying to say that Americans and the West could care less about victims of Japanese War Crimes. Which, I think is because of Japanese Cultural influence like Anime making a positive impact in the west. People just don't think Japanese can be evil.
Hardly. The US Government went Librarian poo when PM Abe tried to deny comfort women and Rep. Honda recieved a huge amount of support for his resolution. There are also a number of documenteries about the Pacific theater and what happened.
Also, of the Japanese I've mentioned it to, I haven't found one to deny Unit 731.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 07:44
Certainly different, Germany went through de-Nazification, Japan was reasonably spared, I think due to certain sensitivities over the Emperor, someone else might know why, or I could look it up online.
Asia has always been far more ambiguous over Hitler, while most certainly understand that the Holocaust was wrong, one has to remember that, before WW11, most of Asia was controlled by France and Britain, Hitler was seen as a strong unifier of Germany - something desired by many Asians - as well as someone who stood up to the Empires.
He wasn't the out and out enemy compared to how he was seen by the UK, France and. consequently, the US.
We(the US) were all for holding the emperor accountable for war crimes. Then the cold war started. MacArthur changed is policy to the Emperor must remain in power so Japan has some stability and will recover quickly to fight those communist.
Certainly different, Germany went through de-Nazification, Japan was reasonably spared, I think due to certain sensitivities over the Emperor, someone else might know why, or I could look it up online.
The history is... complicated. Do you really want a post on it (Before I spend a page or so explaining the occupationand what happened)?
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 07:44
Certainly different, Germany went through de-Nazification, Japan was reasonably spared, I think due to certain sensitivities over the Emperor, someone else might know why, or I could look it up online.
Asia has always been far more ambiguous over Hitler, while most certainly understand that the Holocaust was wrong, one has to remember that, before WW11, most of Asia was controlled by France and Britain, Hitler was seen as a strong unifier of Germany - something desired by many Asians - as well as someone who stood up to the Empires.
He wasn't the out and out enemy compared to how he was seen by the UK, France and. consequently, the US.
Yes, but still.... That Nazi Restaurant idea is so wrong.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 07:45
Hardly. The US Government went Librarian poo when PM Abe tried to deny comfort women and Rep. Honda recieved a huge amount of support for his resolution. There are also a number of documenteries about the Pacific theater and what happened.
Also, of the Japanese I've mentioned it to, I haven't found one to deny Unit 731.
I got to admit the whole Japan denies its war crimes has more to do with Chinese and Koreans bitching. Then with actual attitudes of the Japanese.
We(the US) were all for holding the emperor accountable for war crimes. Then the cold war started. MacArthur changed is policy to the Emperor must remain in power so Japan has some stability and will recover quickly to fight those communist.
On the contrary, MacArthur NEVER wanted to put the Emperor on trial for war crimes, and indeed did everything in his power to keep Washington from ordering it.
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 07:47
The history is... complicated. Do you really want a post on it (Before I spend a page or so explaining the occupationand what happened)?
Go on ahead. But I kinda think it's going to fall along the lines of "Exaggerations, and Lies by Chinese and Koreans"
Skallvia
22-04-2009, 07:47
Hardly. The US Government went Librarian poo when PM Abe tried to deny comfort women and Rep. Honda recieved a huge amount of support for his resolution. There are also a number of documenteries about the Pacific theater and what happened.
Also, of the Japanese I've mentioned it to, I haven't found one to deny Unit 731.
Imll be honest, over here this could be a problem, were it not for the History Channel, I probably would never heard of Unit 731, its not talked about in School...
Furthermore, the war crimes were always talked about in very vague terms, and only briefly mentioned, although thats prettymuch the whole Pacific Theater in School, for the most part it goes Pearl Harbor, D-Day, Atomic Bomb, section on the Holocaust, end of chapter on WWII....
greed and death
22-04-2009, 07:47
On the contrary, MacArthur NEVER wanted to put the Emperor on trial for war crimes, and indeed did everything in his power to keep Washington from ordering it.
I meant to say he changed the policy not his. Your correct he was the main US advocate for protect the emperor.
I got to admit the whole Japan denies its war crimes has more to do with Chinese and Koreans bitching. Then with actual attitudes of the Japanese.
*Nodds* I get to sit in the middle of this argument (Between the three countries) and sometimes I feel like someone should send all three to their rooms without supper for being childish.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 07:48
*Nodds* I get to sit in the middle of this argument (Between the three countries) and sometimes I feel like someone should send all three to their rooms without supper for being childish.
Mostly I just drink all the Sake/Soju/whatever to keep them from getting so drunk they start fighting, sometimes it is good to be the foreigner.
Sapient Cephalopods
22-04-2009, 07:50
The Buddhist swastika and the Nazi swastika have opposite facings, just as a note.
Absolutely untrue. Svastikas go both ways.
Nazi Flag:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Flag_of_Germany_1933.svg/180px-Flag_of_Germany_1933.svg.png
Heaps of other svastikas that turn the same way. (http://reclaimtheswastika.com/photos/)
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 07:52
What makes me angry is how some Japanese think they "liberated" Asia.
Skallvia
22-04-2009, 07:54
What makes me angry is how some Japanese think they "liberated" Asia.
I think my Country claims that one actually, lol...
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 07:57
I think my Country claims that one actually, lol...
The confederacy? lol.... Just Kidding
Brutland and Norden
22-04-2009, 07:58
We(the US) were all for holding the emperor accountable for war crimes. Then the cold war started. MacArthur changed is policy to the Emperor must remain in power so Japan has some stability and will recover quickly to fight those communist.
This. America needed a strong base from which to fight communism. They considered countries such as South Vietnam, Thailand, and Japan as frontlines of the battle. Consider the American treatment of Japan, its former enemy, and the Philippines, its wartime ally. Both suffered much devastation. America poured in million$ into the reconstruction of Japan, while America hastily granted the Philippines independence in 1946 so as not to bear the cost of rebuilding the destroyed country. America did provide 'aid' but on the condition that the Philippines would amend its constitution so as to give favorable treatment towards foreigners, Americans in particular, when it comes to owning land, doing business, etc.
Skallvia
22-04-2009, 07:59
The confederacy? lol.... Just Kidding
Actually, There is a source for that, lol...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebel_Flag#The_Confederate_Flag
During World War II some U.S. military units with Southern nicknames, or made up largely of Southerners, made the flag their unofficial emblem. The USS Columbia (CL-56) flew a Confederate Navy Ensign as a battle flag throughout combat in the South Pacific in World War II. This was done in honor of the ship's namesake, the capital city of South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union. Some soldiers carried Confederate flags into battle. After the Battle of Okinawa a Confederate flag was raised over Shuri Castle by a soldier from the self-styled "Rebel Company" (Company A of the 5th Marine Regiment). It was visible for miles and was taken down after three days on the orders of General Simon B. Buckner, Jr. (son of Confederate General Simon Buckner), who stated that it was inappropriate as "Americans from all over are involved in this battle". It was replaced with the flag of the United States.
But, no I meant the United States, :tongue:
Brutland and Norden
22-04-2009, 08:01
What makes me angry is how some Japanese think they "liberated" Asia.
Hah, that "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere"...
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 08:02
Actually, There is a source for that, lol...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebel_Flag#The_Confederate_Flag
But, no I meant the United States, :tongue:
My state has the Russian Bear and a Communist Star.
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 08:03
Hah, that "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere"...
Such a terrible name.
Ledgersia
22-04-2009, 08:04
This. America needed a strong base from which to fight communism. They considered countries such as South Vietnam, Thailand, and Japan as frontlines of the battle. Consider the American treatment of Japan, its former enemy, and the Philippines, its wartime ally. Both suffered much devastation. America poured in million$ into the reconstruction of Japan, while America hastily granted the Philippines independence in 1946 so as not to bear the cost of rebuilding the destroyed country. America did provide 'aid' but on the condition that the Philippines would amend its constitution so as to give favorable treatment towards foreigners, Americans in particular, when it comes to owning land, doing business, etc.
Hadn't the U.S. already been planning to grant the Philippines independence, anyway?
Skallvia
22-04-2009, 08:04
Hah, that "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere"...
You mean the Republic of Greater East Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Royale), lol
Ledgersia
22-04-2009, 08:06
What makes me angry is how some Japanese think they "liberated" Asia.
Agreed. What also makes me angry is how often the Allies are completely whitewashed, and all their atrocities are ignored. World War II wasn't a black and white "good vs. evil" conflict; all sides were evil (although some were obviously more evil than others, with Nazi Germany being the most evil of all, by far).
Go on ahead. But I kinda think it's going to fall along the lines of "Exaggerations, and Lies by Chinese and Koreans"
Er... no. It has nothing to do with the Chinese and Koreans and everything to do with SCAP policy, changes in Washington, the Cold War, and the sudden need to get Japan back on its feet economically.
Imll be honest, over here this could be a problem, were it not for the History Channel, I probably would never heard of Unit 731, its not talked about in School...
Furthermore, the war crimes were always talked about in very vague terms, and only briefly mentioned, although thats prettymuch the whole Pacific Theater in School, for the most part it goes Pearl Harbor, D-Day, Atomic Bomb, section on the Holocaust, end of chapter on WWII....
I didn't hear of it in high school, but it was covered quite well in college. Of course that goes for just about everything.
I meant to say he changed the policy not his. Your correct he was the main US advocate for protect the emperor.
Ah! Ok. Yes.
Ok, the occupation.
Before Japan’s surrender in WWII Washington, under Presidents Roosevelt and Truman starting planning for the best way to de-militarize Japan and turn it into a democracy. The troops that hit the ground after the surrender were mostly China hands from the State Department who, when building SCAP (Supreme Commander Allied Powers), tended to be liberal in view and who wanted to rip out the old system root and branch and replace it with a American style democracy.
To this end, the Diet was suspended (more or less), the government was not allowed to act without direct approval of SCAP, and anyone suspected of contributing to Japan’s military conquests from the Imperial Army and Navy to the civilian government was suspended from ever holding power.
SCAP further more instituted sweeping reforms across Japan, including forbidding all school text books, removal of the imperial image from everywhere, outlawing the great conglomerates (Zaibatsu), liberalizing the presses, outlawing the crime of insulting the Emperor (Which had been used to silence people), destroying the secret police, removing the thought laws, allowing all political parties, and forbidding censorship (Er, non SCAP censorship). It also started a nationwide education program of telling what crimes the Japanese had committed during WWII (This was in preparation for the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, SCAP wanted the Japanese public to know what they were accused of and just who was to blame). These China hands felt that Japanese had been misled by their government and by the military. They also felt that the State Dept.’s Japan hands would be far too easy on Japan. They wanted a root and branch change.
And, in the beginning, it worked. Excepting MacArthur’s insistence that the Showa Emperor not stand trial, a LOT of what happened was shown. The feeling was intense anger by the Japanese at their military (Returning troops were not treated kindly) and their government for what they had done in their name. Political parties exploded and Japan saw more publications start than any other time in its history, many of them being extreme left wing.
So what happened? As greed and death said, the cold war. Washington suddenly went from focusing on rehabilitating Japan into worrying that the out of control left would mean that Japan would fall to communism. The economic situation in Japan was still highly chaotic, leading to more worries of a revolution. In China, Mao was on the move and the USSR was butting heads with the US in Korea and in Berlin. It was felt that the breaks needed to be slammed on the left in Japan, hard, and the country rebuilt to an economic powerhouse ASAP, allowing US troops to focus on the surely coming war with the Soviet Union. Pretty much overnight those people who had been running the government before the war and had been kicked out found themselves rehabilitated and back running the show, just because they were firmly anti-communist. The idea of showing what happened lost its importance and with the return to power of the pre-war class… well, who likes to really emphasize their own crimes?
That’s the short of it. I’m skipping over a LOT of what was going on. But that’s more or less what happened.
Brutland and Norden
22-04-2009, 08:14
Hadn't the U.S. already been planning to grant the Philippines independence, anyway?
Ten years after the Tydings-McDuffie Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tydings-McDuffie_Act) passed in 1934. Independence should be granted by 1944. But then the war happened. I'm of the opinion that the granting of independence doesn't really matter as long as they did sincerely help rebuild the country... like what they did in Europe. But they gave that 'aid' for reconstruction and that hasty granting of independence sure looked as if they were avoiding rebuild a country they embroiled in a destructive war. AFAIK aside from the nuked cities, Manila was the second most destroyed city in WWII after Warsaw.
Ledgersia
22-04-2009, 08:16
Ten years after the Tydings-McDuffie Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tydings-McDuffie_Act) passed in 1934. Independence should be granted by 1944. But then the war happened. I'm of the opinion that the granting of independence doesn't really matter as long as they did sincerely help rebuild the country... like what they did in Europe. But they gave that 'aid' for reconstruction and that hasty granting of independence sure looked as if they were avoiding rebuild a country they embroiled in a destructive war. AFAIK aside from the nuked cities, Manila was the second most destroyed city in WWII after Warsaw.
Or better yet, we should have never colonized the Philippines in the first place. Every U.S. soldier who died trying to subjugate the place richly deserved it.
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 08:16
Er... no. It has nothing to do with the Chinese and Koreans and everything to do with SCAP policy, changes in Washington, the Cold War, and the sudden need to get Japan back on its feet economically.
I didn't hear of it in high school, but it was covered quite well in college. Of course that goes for just about everything.
Ah! Ok. Yes.
Ok, the occupation.
Before Japan’s surrender in WWII Washington, under Presidents Roosevelt and Truman starting planning for the best way to de-militarize Japan and turn it into a democracy. The troops that hit the ground after the surrender were mostly China hands from the State Department who, when building SCAP (Supreme Commander Allied Powers), tended to be liberal in view and who wanted to rip out the old system root and branch and replace it with a American style democracy.
To this end, the Diet was suspended (more or less), the government was not allowed to act without direct approval of SCAP, and anyone suspected of contributing to Japan’s military conquests from the Imperial Army and Navy to the civilian government was suspended from ever holding power.
SCAP further more instituted sweeping reforms across Japan, including forbidding all school text books, removal of the imperial image from everywhere, outlawing the great conglomerates (Zaibatsu), liberalizing the presses, outlawing the crime of insulting the Emperor (Which had been used to silence people), destroying the secret police, removing the thought laws, allowing all political parties, and forbidding censorship (Er, non SCAP censorship). It also started a nationwide education program of telling what crimes the Japanese had committed during WWII (This was in preparation for the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, SCAP wanted the Japanese public to know what they were accused of and just who was to blame). These China hands felt that Japanese had been misled by their government and by the military. They also felt that the State Dept.’s Japan hands would be far too easy on Japan. They wanted a root and branch change.
And, in the beginning, it worked. Excepting MacArthur’s insistence that the Showa Emperor not stand trial, a LOT of what happened was shown. The feeling was intense anger by the Japanese at their military (Returning troops were not treated kindly) and their government for what they had done in their name. Political parties exploded and Japan saw more publications start than any other time in its history, many of them being extreme left wing.
So what happened? As greed and death said, the cold war. Washington suddenly went from focusing on rehabilitating Japan into worrying that the out of control left would mean that Japan would fall to communism. The economic situation in Japan was still highly chaotic, leading to more worries of a revolution. In China, Mao was on the move and the USSR was butting heads with the US in Korea and in Berlin. It was felt that the breaks needed to be slammed on the left in Japan, hard, and the country rebuilt to an economic powerhouse ASAP, allowing US troops to focus on the surely coming war with the Soviet Union. Pretty much overnight those people who had been running the government before the war and had been kicked out found themselves rehabilitated and back running the show, just because they were firmly anti-communist. The idea of showing what happened lost its importance and with the return to power of the pre-war class… well, who likes to really emphasize their own crimes?
That’s the short of it. I’m skipping over a LOT of what was going on. But that’s more or less what happened.
Wow, that was a great explanation. I really never understood it that much to be honest.
Wow, that was a great explanation. I really never understood it that much to be honest.
If you want a REALLY good look at what was going on (And all the stuff I skipped), I highly recomend Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II by John W. Dower as a good starting point.
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 08:27
If you want a REALLY good look at what was going on (And all the stuff I skipped), I highly recomend Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II by John W. Dower as a good starting point.
I'll try, thank you!
Garmidia
22-04-2009, 08:30
I think we've established that Nazi restaurants shouldn't be opened.
Skylar Alina
22-04-2009, 08:31
And then the experiments that were performed on them in the name of Japanese imperialism...
Then again, Americans detained the all the Japs we could find so, again, it's not a one way street.
No one ever mentions the Italians and Germans that were detained either.
Garmidia
22-04-2009, 08:33
I'll try, thank you!
Suppose you'll be heading off to the library tomorrow? :)
Black Road
22-04-2009, 08:33
I heard tell that the Japanese government are censoring that part of history in their schools. Wouldn't want their future generations to know how much of a monster their grand dads and mums were...
Way to go to all those foul gits that thought up that idea!
(Oh, and I'm pinoy by the way so I have thing against that generation of Japs; Not this generation though. Hooray for anime and all those cool games they keep producing)
Garmidia
22-04-2009, 08:35
I heard tell that the Japanese government are censoring that part of history in their schools.
Ah, the Textbook scandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies)
I heard tell that the Japanese government are censoring that part of history in their schools. Wouldn't want their future generations to know how much of a monster their grand dads and mums were...
Not... exactly. One, there are a number of textbooks that the Japanese government approves. Most of them do mention Japan's war crimes. 2. The one that DOES whitewash things is used by less than 1% of junior high schools in Japan because the local boards of education refuse to buy it due to pressure from parents. 3. Most teachers go out of their way to teach about Japan's war crimes (In fact I got to read the board of one of my 3rd grade classes during lunch because they have history right before that. UA will be happy to know that Unit 731 was covered). And 4. Please don't use the word Jap. It offends.
Skylar Alina
22-04-2009, 08:48
Well, after reading several posts about the Holocaust, I find that nobody yet has mentioned anything about Japan and it's crimes against humanity being unreported.
Live disections of human beings, rapes, the murder of so many innocent people by unit 731. It rarely is ever mentioned in the western.
Nanjing's brutal massacres, Comfort Women, and Unit 731 are always ignored by west.
Nobody feels the pain of hearing our ancestors massacred, and it makes me feel their pain. It makes me angry because the world doesn't care about us. My Grandmother was murdered by Japanese soldiers, but somewhere I know that someone is laughing at my pain. The pain of Genocide.
I can't go on typing. I can't take it. Anyways, I am hear to ask, what do you think about the atrocities that the Japanese Empire commited against Asia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#War_crimes_trials
I don't think anyone is laughing at your pain
Black Road
22-04-2009, 08:51
Sorry about the word that offends. I apologize. But man you guys sure post fast...
Anyways, don't really much want to think about that. Bygones and all. Though I still want to see justice done!
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 08:52
Suppose you'll be heading off to the library tomorrow? :)
Indeed!
Garmidia
22-04-2009, 08:53
OOC: Nice signature, Anacreon. :D:D
OOC edit: GALLARTESE is online! Lets hold our breath as we GEt NUKed by THE USs GALLarTEse! Damn, that thread made my day.
Garmidia
22-04-2009, 09:09
I swear the forums are lagging for me.
edit: or not.
Rhursbourg
22-04-2009, 10:10
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_itxeexAFd4U/RugPQ4IA19I/AAAAAAAABTk/oCK8nDPh_kA/s400/RonaldSearle2.jpg
shouldnt let it happen agian
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 10:36
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_itxeexAFd4U/RugPQ4IA19I/AAAAAAAABTk/oCK8nDPh_kA/s400/RonaldSearle2.jpg
shouldnt let it happen agian
I'm afraid that History repeats itself.
Sorry about the word that offends. I apologize. But man you guys sure post fast...
Welcome to NSG. :p
Anyways, don't really much want to think about that. Bygones and all. Though I still want to see justice done!
Well, people were tried for the crimes, convicted, and a number hanged so I'm not too sure what else can be done.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 10:46
Sorry about the word that offends. I apologize. But man you guys sure post fast...
Anyways, don't really much want to think about that. Bygones and all. Though I still want to see justice done!
you can get programs to auto complete words. Sometimes it will pick the wrong word though.
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 10:54
Welcome to NSG. :p
Well, people were tried for the crimes, convicted, and a number hanged so I'm not too sure what else can be done.
Quite right. They have even paid reparations. The only thing they can try to do, which most of you will disagree is censor the far-right views and stop visiting the Yasukuni shrine.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 10:59
and stop visiting the Yasukuni shrine.
Good luck with that. Principles of Confucianism make that very unlikely.
Seriously do you think there are not some "bad soldiers" buried in Arlington ?
Should the president stop visiting on memorial day because of them?
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 11:03
Good luck with that. Principles of Confucianism make that very unlikely.
Seriously do you think there are not some "bad soldiers" buried in Arlington ?
Should the president stop visiting on memorial day because of them?
Have you ever read the english sign in the Yasukuni shrine? Sure there are bad soldiers in Arlington but nowhere near as bad as Yasukuni.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 11:09
Have you ever read the english sign in the Yasukuni shrine? Sure there are bad soldiers in Arlington but nowhere near as bad as Yasukuni.
You mean the FDR forced us into the war sign ???
I found it amusing.
I suspect if we were ever occupied like Japan was at the end of the war we would have our fair share of War criminals. (Curtis Lemay perhaps) buried at Arlington.
Blouman Empire
22-04-2009, 11:11
Well, after reading several posts about the Holocaust, I find that nobody yet has mentioned anything about Japan and it's crimes against humanity being unreported.
Live disections of human beings, rapes, the murder of so many innocent people by unit 731. It rarely is ever mentioned in the western.
Nanjing's brutal massacres, Comfort Women, and Unit 731 are always ignored by west.
Nobody feels the pain of hearing our ancestors massacred, and it makes me feel their pain. It makes me angry because the world doesn't care about us. My Grandmother was murdered by Japanese soldiers, but somewhere I know that someone is laughing at my pain. The pain of Genocide.
I can't go on typing. I can't take it. Anyways, I am hear to ask, what do you think about the atrocities that the Japanese Empire commited against Asia?
Because people just don't give a shit, they aren't taught about it and hardly any mention is made of it and never brought up, neither do they have the influence to be able to get recognition. It is why I think it was bogus that the UN simply made a day for the holocaust instead of bringing attention to other genocides and atrocities.
United Anacreon
22-04-2009, 11:35
Because people just don't give a shit, they aren't taught about it and hardly any mention is made of it and never brought up, neither do they have the influence to be able to get recognition. It is why I think it was bogus that the UN simply made a day for the holocaust instead of bringing attention to other genocides and atrocities.
*sigh* The world truly is cruel.
The Archregimancy
22-04-2009, 11:44
In South Korea they had the Hitler Cafe, adorned with Nazi memorabilia, the owner didn't really realise the significance.
It works both ways, we relate to that closest to us first.
EDIT: The Hitler Bar, close...
http://www.who-sucks.com/people/dining-with-hitler-in-asia-hitler-themed-bars-restaurants
Your slight confusion over the Hitler Cafe - as opposed to bar - probably stems from the Hitler's Cross Cafe in Mumbai:
NAVI MUMBAI: Hitler, dressed in full military uniform with the trademark swastika armband on his sleeve, no longer stares down from a poster at the busy road in Kharghar.
The management of the controversial eatery, Hitler's Cross, has removed the offending photograph of the Nazi leader from the restaurant's window though the establishment's title remains.
While the Jewish community expressed happiness at this development, its members said full justice would be done only when the title of the restaurant was changed.
The Jews have found support from none other than the influential guardian minister of Navi Mumbai, Ganesh Naik. "I think it is totally wrong to have any place named after a horrible man like Hitler.
Such a practice completely goes against our Indian culture," Naik said. He said he would soon talk to the proprietors, Satish Sabhlok and Puneet Sabhlok, to persuade them to change the name of the eatery.
While Puneet, who is also the MD of the restaurant, was unavailable for comment on Wednesday, he has reportedly told other mediapersons that he
can legally have a registered trademark like Hitler's Cross because there are already 12 other establishments in India with 'Hitler' in the title, including five in Mumbai.
But Jews said that whoever tries to market their business by using Hitler's name was ethically "very wrong". "I just hope that better sense prevails, and people do not glorify Hitler or his mad ideas.
If anyone else has also named their shops after Hitler, they must question their souls if it is the right thing they have done," said Ariela Massil, a young Jew from Navi Mumbai.
A Bombay HC lawyer, Suresh Chandrashekhar, suggested, "If there are any other shops or hotels named after Hitler, then a law must be enacted to stop titles that glorify bad people, so that others are not hurt.
The perpetrators of the World War II genocide, in which six million women, children and civilians were killed, must not be remembered through hotels, shops or even roadside dhabas.
Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1921109.cms
Note that in this case the cafe owner didn't try to claim ignorance of the Holocaust and Hitler's general unpleasantness, but rather tried to excuse the cafe's name on the grounds that since there were a dozen other establishments in India with the word 'Hitler' in their name - 5 of them in Mumbai alone - he wasn't doing anything wrong. The poster of Hitler in full military uniform rather suggests that he did know what he was doing.
It's perhaps worth noting in the context of the broader debate that we have plenty of Soviet-chic restaurants and bars in the industrialised west which plenty of people who grew up under communism find inexplicably offensive. Without meaning to get into a discussion of whether Hitler or Stalin was the worse mass-murderer, it does suggest that insensitivity to 20th-century mass murder is hardly unique to our south and east Asian cousins.
We might be waiting some time for the Independent Manchukuo Restaurant, though.
The_pantless_hero
22-04-2009, 11:46
Well, after reading several posts about the Holocaust, I find that nobody yet has mentioned anything about Japan and it's crimes against humanity being unreported.
No massacre in history is as important as the Holocaust, with Darfur in a distant second in the list of importance. Everything else ties for third, even if the number of people killed is greater than either.
That aside, the Japanese like to pretend all their bad history never happened.
Dumb Ideologies
22-04-2009, 11:49
Having recently read up on the 'comfort women' system, I'm horrified that I was previously ignorant of such despicable acts. I still don't know much about the rest, but systematic and institutionalized rape is more than enough to profoundly disgust me.
Linker Niederrhein
22-04-2009, 11:55
It is not possible for the Japanese to commits heinous acts. Their army of chibis just wanted to spread join and tentacle porn in mainland China >:(
I strongly object to the despicable demonisation of the Japanese people by commie propaganda from Red China. Bloody reds need to be put down a notch or two.
Blouman Empire
22-04-2009, 11:58
*sigh* The world truly is cruel.
Nothing against you mate, I know where you are coming from I am indeed angry that these crimes by the Imperial Army is not recognised and taught as much as the holocaust is something I don't like and when I see other atrocities being promoted as the only bad thing that has happened in the world and get special days solely to that then I believe that it is wrong.
The Archregimancy
22-04-2009, 12:00
No massacre in history is as important as the Holocaust, with Darfur in a distant second in the list of importance. Everything else ties for third, even if the number of people killed is greater than either.
That aside, the Japanese like to pretend all their bad history never happened.
This may be veering dangerously close to a threadjack, but just out of curiosity, on what grounds - other than perhaps selective recent media publicity - do you consider Darfur 'second' in terms of any genocide ever, above any genocide except the Holocaust?
Just taking the first three random examples from the last 200 years that pop into my head... Clearly worse than Rwanda? Clearly worse than Tasmania? Clearly worse than Armenia?
That's a fairly big statement on your part. Can you back it up objectively, or is this just a subjective opinion?
Quite right. They have even paid reparations. The only thing they can try to do, which most of you will disagree is censor the far-right views and stop visiting the Yasukuni shrine.
While I'm all for idiot Diet members not going there, sadly (And you can blame us Americans for this one, we wrote it too well perhaps) the Japanese constitution does guarantee freedom of speech, religion, and thought.
Unfortunately that means that anytime I wander into Tokyo or some other major city I have to listen to very stupid statements made by Japan's right wing-nuts broadcasting over those thrice damned sound trucks!
Barringtonia
22-04-2009, 12:31
Having recently read up on the 'comfort women' system, I'm horrified that I was previously ignorant of such despicable acts. I still don't know much about the rest, but systematic and institutionalized rape is more than enough to profoundly disgust me.
Well the US and South Korea have conspired to ensure a steady supply of clean Korean women to the US army up until late,
The army and prostitution go hand in hand.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-34403242_ITM
It's occurring in Iraq as well, though less 'official'
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-kbr-war-profiteers-feb21,0,3494273.story
Ashmoria
22-04-2009, 12:52
Well, after reading several posts about the Holocaust, I find that nobody yet has mentioned anything about Japan and it's crimes against humanity being unreported.
Live disections of human beings, rapes, the murder of so many innocent people by unit 731. It rarely is ever mentioned in the western.
Nanjing's brutal massacres, Comfort Women, and Unit 731 are always ignored by west.
Nobody feels the pain of hearing our ancestors massacred, and it makes me feel their pain. It makes me angry because the world doesn't care about us. My Grandmother was murdered by Japanese soldiers, but somewhere I know that someone is laughing at my pain. The pain of Genocide.
I can't go on typing. I can't take it. Anyways, I am hear to ask, what do you think about the atrocities that the Japanese Empire commited against Asia?
we have a re-enactment of the bataan death march every year here in new mexico. does that count?
Hurdegaryp
22-04-2009, 13:32
This is true, but every Japanese I talk to always will deny unit 731. It is the opposite of Germany.
What else can you expect from a nation whose leading politicians deliberately visit shrines containing the wretched remains of known war criminals?
What else can you expect from a nation whose leading politicians deliberately visit shrines containing the wretched remains of known war criminals?
2 little points. 1. The last three prime ministers of Japan have not visited Yasukuni-jinja. 2. The shrine does not contain the remains, wretched or otherwise, of the class A war criminals.
Post Liminality
22-04-2009, 15:02
2 little points. 1. The last three prime ministers of Japan have not visited Yasukuni-jinja. 2. The shrine does not contain the remains, wretched or otherwise, of the class A war criminals.
Eh? I thought the very last prime minister underwent a huge fiasco regarding a visit to the shrine? I have a distinct memory of this happening within the last, I want to say, four years. Actually, I'm pretty sure it was 4 years ago, because I remember getting into a bit of argument with a Japanese student regarding WWII (completely unsolicited, I should add--"We'll just disagree and you'll get pissed." And, what a surprise, that's exactly what happens.).
greed and death
22-04-2009, 15:11
2 little points. 1. The last three prime ministers of Japan have not visited Yasukuni-jinja. 2. The shrine does not contain the remains, wretched or otherwise, of the class A war criminals.
Shinzō Abe visited it one month before becoming Prime minister, and he wanted to visit as Prime minister but gave in to pressure and visited a cometary instead.
Yasuo Fukuda does genuinely wish to end visits to the shrine.
Lets see what Taro Aso does in August he has been PM for less then a year. Also worth pointing out in 2006 he suggested the emperor visit the shrine.
Nanatsu no Tsuki
22-04-2009, 15:12
Yasuo Fukuda does genuinely wish to end visit to the shrine.
Which is why he gets so much criticism.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 15:13
Eh? I thought the very last prime minister underwent a huge fiasco regarding a visit to the shrine? I have a distinct memory of this happening within the last, I want to say, four years. Actually, I'm pretty sure it was 4 years ago, because I remember getting into a bit of argument with a Japanese student regarding WWII (completely unsolicited, I should add--"We'll just disagree and you'll get pissed." And, what a surprise, that's exactly what happens.).
Japan has gone through a prime minster every year for the last 3 years.
your thinking of Junichiro Koizumi who was the 4th to last PM.
Post Liminality
22-04-2009, 15:14
Shinzō Abe visited it one month before becoming Prime minister, and he wanted to visit as Prime minister but gave in to pressure and visited a cometary instead.
Ah....I am fairly certain this is what I was referring to. So, I guess it is still correct to say no acting prime minister has visited the shrine in the last three rounds.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 15:14
Which is why he gets so much criticism.
No PM can be as cool as Elvis(Junichiro Koizumi) for the Japanese people.
Nanatsu no Tsuki
22-04-2009, 15:18
No PM can be as cool as Elvis(Junichiro Koizumi) for the Japanese people.
Koizumi-sama... cool as the koi fish.:D
greed and death
22-04-2009, 15:23
Koizumi-sama... cool as the koi fish.:D
You ever see where him and the Bushes are in grace land ?
Nanatsu no Tsuki
22-04-2009, 15:27
You ever see where him and the Bushes are in grace land ?
Link, like, onegai, hayaku!!!!:eek2:
greed and death
22-04-2009, 15:34
Link, like, onegai, hayaku!!!!:eek2:
it is pretty choppy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOlZ2uUqS2g
I think he sung blue suede shoes. not certain if it is in that clip.
Nanatsu no Tsuki
22-04-2009, 15:35
it is pretty choppy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOlZ2uUqS2g
I think he sung blue suede shoes. not certain if it is in that clip.
*rolls around the floor, laughing her ass off*
greed and death
22-04-2009, 15:36
*rolls around the floor, laughing her ass off*
That was likely Bush's best diplomacy.
People in Asia weren't the only ones who suffered Japanese war crimes.
My grandfather was a Japanese POW for 3 years in Changi, many, many Australian, New Zealand and other "westerners" died.
I do not hold this against Japan though.
Nanatsu no Tsuki
22-04-2009, 16:09
People in Asia weren't the only ones who suffered Japanese war crimes.
My grandfather was a Japanese POW for 3 years in Changi, many, many Australian, New Zealand and other "westerners" died.
I do not hold this against Japan though.
True that. The Japanese in the US were also relocated to concentration camps during WWII.
Chumblywumbly
22-04-2009, 16:11
In South Korea they had the Hitler [Bar], adorned with Nazi memorabilia, the owner didn't really realise the significance.
It works both ways, we relate to that closest to us first.
In Glasgow, there's a bar called Mao, which features Warhol-style pictures of the Chairman.
It's odd, to say the least.
Nanatsu no Tsuki
22-04-2009, 16:13
In Glasgow, there's a bar called Mao, which features Warhol-style pictures of the Chairman.
It's odd, to say the least.
I know that there's a bar called Fidel's in New Zealand. It features all about Castro and Communist Cuba.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 18:50
In Glasgow, there's a bar called Mao, which features Warhol-style pictures of the Chairman.
It's odd, to say the least.
Its okay. The Chinese say Mao was 7 fingers good and 3 fingers bad. You don't kill the person because he had 3 bad fingers do you ?
Glorious Freedonia
22-04-2009, 19:35
Well, after reading several posts about the Holocaust, I find that nobody yet has mentioned anything about Japan and it's crimes against humanity being unreported.
Live disections of human beings, rapes, the murder of so many innocent people by unit 731. It rarely is ever mentioned in the western.
Nanjing's brutal massacres, Comfort Women, and Unit 731 are always ignored by west.
Nobody feels the pain of hearing our ancestors massacred, and it makes me feel their pain. It makes me angry because the world doesn't care about us. My Grandmother was murdered by Japanese soldiers, but somewhere I know that someone is laughing at my pain. The pain of Genocide.
I can't go on typing. I can't take it. Anyways, I am hear to ask, what do you think about the atrocities that the Japanese Empire commited against Asia?
The japanese were downright evil. I do not think anybody stands up for them. The holocaust post was about the holocaust so do not expect to find other attrocities mentioned there.
Anti-Social Darwinism
22-04-2009, 19:48
True that. The Japanese in the US were also relocated to concentration camps during WWII.
Yes, and while our actions vis a vis the Japanese in America weren't exactly honorable, they were, given the circumstances, understandable. We took the property and put them in camps. Camps where they weren't tortured, had enough to eat, had warm clothes in the winter, had adequate medical care and their children went to school. I'm not saying it was right, I am saying that, compared to their counterparts in Germany and Asia, they were treated, if not fairly, at least humanely.
New Manvir
22-04-2009, 20:18
That's not what I meant. I was trying to say that Americans and the West could care less about victims of Japanese War Crimes. Which, I think is because of Japanese Cultural influence like Anime making a positive impact in the west. People just don't think Japanese can be evil.
Of course, the people who made my Playstation, my MP3 player and my TV could never be evil. :p
Nanatsu no Tsuki
22-04-2009, 20:41
Yes, and while our actions vis a vis the Japanese in America weren't exactly honorable, they were, given the circumstances, understandable. We took the property and put them in camps. Camps where they weren't tortured, had enough to eat, had warm clothes in the winter, had adequate medical care and their children went to school. I'm not saying it was right, I am saying that, compared to their counterparts in Germany and Asia, they were treated, if not fairly, at least humanely.
I hear you, Darwy-sama.
greed and death
22-04-2009, 20:45
Yes, and while our actions vis a vis the Japanese in America weren't exactly honorable, they were, given the circumstances, understandable. We took the property and put them in camps. Camps where they weren't tortured, had enough to eat, had warm clothes in the winter, had adequate medical care and their children went to school. I'm not saying it was right, I am saying that, compared to their counterparts in Germany and Asia, they were treated, if not fairly, at least humanely.
Funny story only slight off subject.
My university became the first university in Texas with Air conditioning. Because we were located next to a German Prisoner of war camp and the Red cross felt it would be inhumane to subject Germans to the Texas heat. So after the war our university president acquired the air conditioners.
Yootopia
22-04-2009, 20:51
And then the experiments that were performed on them in the name of Japanese imperialism...
Then again, Americans detained the all the Japs we could find so, again, it's not a one way street.
Of course, because detention is the same as the extermination of millions of Chinese. Yes.
Lackadaisical2
22-04-2009, 23:32
Well the US and South Korea have conspired to ensure a steady supply of clean Korean women to the US army up until late,
The army and prostitution go hand in hand.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-34403242_ITM
It's occurring in Iraq as well, though less 'official'
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-kbr-war-profiteers-feb21,0,3494273.story
I don't see anything regarding institutionalized rape (which is my understanding fo the Japanese system), in either of the links. Beyond of course the usual "feminist" whining that all prostitution is coercive by nature.
The blessed Chris
22-04-2009, 23:41
In Glasgow, there's a bar called Mao, which features Warhol-style pictures of the Chairman.
It's odd, to say the least.
I suspect it owes much to the fact that Hitler, and to a lesser extent, Staln, have dominated British history lessons for the past few decades. Mao, by contrast, simply does not recieve equivalent coverage or analysis, and is thus, much like Che Guevera, more easily evoked as a popular image.
In regard to this topic, I do feel, given the extent to which current British history syllabi focus on Nazism and creating a pantomime villain of Hitler and a morality tale of the second world war, that the absence of any real attention on Chinese efforts, and death figures, is odd.
I find comparisions between the American detention of Japanese Americans, many of whom joined the military and fought in all theaters of the war, which was a serious violation of their civil rights, to the horrific atrocities commited by the Imperial Japanese army, offensive.
Its like comparing school uniforms to Jim Crow Laws.
Chumblywumbly
22-04-2009, 23:52
In regard to this topic, I do feel, given the extent to which current British history syllabi focus on Nazism and creating a pantomime villain of Hitler and a morality tale of the second world war, that the absence of any real attention on Chinese efforts, and death figures, is odd.
History is taught oddly in the UK (or at least was when I was being taught, a decade back; standards may well have changed).
I understand why educators believe WW2 should be focused on in history education, and I certainly don't think it should be ignored, but it is (or, again, was) looked at in isolation; as a kind of spontaneous event in Europe. And that's another point, history teaching is incredibly Anglocentric; I don't think I studied a historical event east of Moscow.
That said, how on earth you adequately teach world history with enough depth to high-schoolers is beyond me.
The blessed Chris
23-04-2009, 00:06
History is taught oddly in the UK (or at least was when I was being taught, a decade back; standards may well have changed).
I understand why educators believe WW2 should be focused on in history education, and I certainly don't think it should be ignored, but it is (or, again, was) looked at in isolation; as a kind of spontaneous event in Europe. And that's another point, history teaching is incredibly Anglocentric; I don't think I studied a historical event east of Moscow.
That said, how on earth you adequately teach world history with enough depth to high-schoolers is beyond me.
What vexes me more is that, however Eurocentric state history teaching is, it still leaves lacunae in knowledge of our own history that I find staggering. The omission of nigh on everything from Alfred, through the Norse invasions, Norman invasions, Angevin empire, Magna Carta, Plantaganet juridical and political system, War of the Roses to pre-Reformation Tudors in most schools is just inadequate, and deprives students of an oppurtunity to study the basis of post-Reformation England.
World history is a different matter. I'd prefer to devote A and AS level teaching to wider history; it is rather more specialised, esoteric knowledge than the rudiments of British history which I feel should be compulsory study.
Admittedly, I am a history student, aspiring academic et al., however, it strikes me as odd that Hitler and Stalin recieve more attention than do genuinely significant events in British history, which have equal contemporary significance.
only if you put Japanese War flags and blatantly show WWII pictures of Japanese people committing crimes....
Short of that, probably not...
Japan just panders to us too much for us to bitch about them, lol...
Reminds me of that South Park episode. "We cannot be taking over, for you see, you American have VERY BIG penis, and we only small!"
The Romulan Republic
23-04-2009, 00:17
Unit 731's attrocities and other Japanese warcrimes are grossly underreported (for that matter, the non-Jewish deaths from the Holocaust seem to go somewhat iggnored, if only as a consequence of the Jewish death toll being the highest).
Speaking of Unit 731, I only heard about them a few years ago as a result of a book about some of the true stories the X-Files was based on. Apparently, their was concern at the time among the people working on the show that audience members wouldn't realize they were basing a story on a real event.
Chumblywumbly
23-04-2009, 00:38
What vexes me more is that, however Eurocentric state history teaching is, it still leaves lacunae in knowledge of our own history that I find staggering. The omission of nigh on everything from Alfred, through the Norse invasions, Norman invasions, Angevin empire, Magna Carta, Plantaganet juridical and political system, War of the Roses to pre-Reformation Tudors in most schools is just inadequate, and deprives students of an oppurtunity to study the basis of post-Reformation England.
One of the benefits of sour-tasting Scottish nationalism being pumped into you from an early age is that Scottish history, and by necessity English history, is fairly well-covered in high schools up here - at least, up to a point.
Thanks to primary/high school history lessons I could talk for hours on the history of Scotland, from Skara Brae onwards... but ask me a question about Scotland post-Highland Clearances and (unless I had studied it in my own time) I'd know diddly-squat.
Admittedly, I am a history student, aspiring academic et al., however, it strikes me as odd that Hitler and Stalin recieve more attention than do genuinely significant events in British history, which have equal contemporary significance.
Um... you're not saying the reigns of Hitler and/or Stalin were insignificant to British history, are you?
Speaking of Unit 731, I only heard about them a few years ago as a result of a book about some of the true stories the X-Files was based on. Apparently, their was concern at the time among the people working on the show that audience members wouldn't realize they were basing a story on a real event.
Based loosely as fuck, though.
Unless 731 were mucking about with shape-changing aliens...
The blessed Chris
23-04-2009, 00:48
One of the benefits of sour-tasting Scottish nationalism being pumped into you from an early age is that Scottish history, and by necessity English history, is fairly well-covered in high schools up here - at least, up to a point.
Thanks to primary/high school history lessons I could talk for hours on the history of Scotland, from Skara Brae onwards... but ask me a question about Scotland post-Highland Clearances and (unless I had studied it in my own time) I'd know diddly-squat.
Um... you're not saying the reigns of Hitler and/or Stalin were insignificant to British history, are you?
Of course not. I simply think they're studied ought of their political, global and economic context, out of a misplaced, idealistic, moralistic aim to inculcate into students the evils of absolutism and intolerance. History isn't a morality tale.
Regarding Scottish history teaching, I envy you. Inveterate history geek that I am, I studied Classical, late-Antique and Medieval history on my own steam; however, I do think the rudiments of British history should be taught above anything else at pre-GCSE and GCSE secondary level.
Chumblywumbly
23-04-2009, 00:54
Of course not.
I didn't think so.
History isn't a morality tale.
Hmmm... I don't know if I agree or not.
*ponders*
The Romulan Republic
23-04-2009, 00:56
Based loosely as fuck, though.
Unless 731 were mucking about with shape-changing aliens...
True, that. Its unfortunate that some people's only knowldege of this event may come from a work of science fiction, especially if it causes them to dismiss the actual event as a work of fiction as well.
The blessed Chris
23-04-2009, 01:04
I didn't think so.
Hmmm... I don't know if I agree or not.
*ponders*
Not if we're even attempting objectivity it isn't.
James_xenoland
23-04-2009, 03:06
Well, after reading several posts about the Holocaust, I find that nobody yet has mentioned anything about Japan and it's crimes against humanity being unreported.
Live disections of human beings, rapes, the murder of so many innocent people by unit 731. It rarely is ever mentioned in the western.
Nanjing's brutal massacres, Comfort Women, and Unit 731 are always ignored by west.
It makes me angry because the world doesn't care about us.
Because, the Japanese are the wrong color/race.
In the past it may have been because they were/are such close allies. (politics) But that doesn't explain the state of things today, on this issue.
Kayazistan
23-04-2009, 04:40
I have huge problems with the crimes of the Japanese for personal reasons. My mother, who immigrated from Japan in the 1970s, strongly and sincerely believes that Japan was completely in the right to do what it did - she even goes so far as to argue that the Chinese really don't begrudge the Japanese and secretly admire them and the dropping of the atomic bombs was completely unjustified - to which my American father and myself just gape. The result is that I have difficult talking about these events, due to the degree to which my mother will defend her own country (as she is a Japanese citizen despite having lived in the US for 30-odd years). It's really kind of sad.