NationStates Jolt Archive

Its Holocaust Rememberence Day. No agenda. No excluding certian groups.


Never Again.

Victims Killed
Jews 5.9 million
Soviet POWs 2–3 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll

Never forget.

AP Article from Isreal (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iMSPfNKtxFpBDnjVpVXaiRfn-HwAD97MSI1O0)

Only by acknowledging what happened and exposing those who deny it can we prevent it happening again.

It is shocking such a thing happened in Europe but 65 years ago.

So it does turn out way less (and I still think it's 5,000 - 15,000 too many) gays died than Jews, Gypsies etc?

It's truly horrible that we can't even get accurate numbers as to who all was killed (not just in the famous Holocaust but in almost every genocidal spree since) and that one can arguably be accurate enough in saying things like "give or take a million." The crimes are mind-boggling in scope and it's no surprise how difficult it is to truly comprehend it on an emotional level.

So it does turn out way less (and I still think it's 5,000 - 15,000 too many) gays died than Jews, Gypsies etc?

Please don't carry this argument in from the last thread...

Never again. Those who died in the Holocaust will never be forgotten. May they rest in peace and may we never forget.

So it does turn out way less (and I still think it's 5,000 - 15,000 too many) gays died than Jews, Gypsies etc?

Wow. If you want to point to where people denied that less gays died, be my guest. You wont find anyone denying that point. There could be many reasons. Gays being harder to 'find', for example.

Less Jehovah's Witnesses died then everyone else too. Clearly they dont matter as much.:rolleyes:


Any time a group of people is targeted and murdered it fucking matters. Hundreds, thousands, millions, whatever.

EDIT: Im done feeding you after this post, and I advise everyone else to do the same. If you want to be NM's pet, fine, but make him feed you, not us.

"Never Again" should mean just that. Not "Never Again For Some, But Not Others".

So it does turn ooofff

*Slaps hand over NNLDI's mouth*
yes, NNLDI, it turns out that it was a tragedy... a sad chapter in Human History.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1232550426_worf%20face%20palm.gif

Worf facepalm ftw

Clearly they dont matter as much.:rolleyes:

Where did I say that? I explicitly said in my post that 5,000 - 15,000 is 5,000 - 15,000 too many. I think persecution of people for things they cannot help or control, and aren't even problems, is disgusting. I was just pointing out that less gays were killed.

Where did I say that? I explicitly said in my post that 5,000 - 15,000 is 5,000 - 15,000 too many. I think persecution of people for things they cannot help or control, and aren't even problems, is disgusting. I was just pointing out that less gays were killed.

You know, we can read the numbers ourselves ;)

It's truly horrible that we can't even get accurate numbers as to who all was killed (not just in the famous Holocaust but in almost every genocidal spree since) and that one can arguably be accurate enough in saying things like "give or take a million." The crimes are mind-boggling in scope and it's no surprise how difficult it is to truly comprehend it on an emotional level.

On the other hand, it is terrifying that, relative to other genocides that occurred prior to the last couple of decades, we can accurately (again, relative for the time) get numbers.

That's why the Holocaust is terrifying (at least, to me), in its own right. Not strictly because it's yet another example of humanity's genocidal tendencies, but rather because of the mechanization and industrialization of such a primitive tendency. It goes to show the sad tragedy that even man's great capacities for ingenuity and creativity are still held in bondage to his apish and primitive natures.

The needless correction for the day: Less ≠ fewer.

Worf facepalm ftw

It should really be used in most of the threads, here.

So it does turn out way less (and I still think it's 5,000 - 15,000 too many) gays died than Jews, Gypsies etc?

Does it really matter how many human beings of any kind were brutally slaughtered for no reason except that Hitler and/or his followers wanted it - 60 or 6,000,000 does it make it any less reprehensible?

I don't quite understand where you are coming from. He posted the numbers. I'm not sure why there was a need to point out that fewer gays dies when the information was at the top of the page. It seemed almost an attempt to downplay it, regardless of how it was phrased.

DI, I think this thread will suffer the other Holocaust thread's fate. :(

Does it really matter how many human beings of any kind were brutally slaughtered for no reason except that Hitler and/or his followers wanted it - 60 or 6,000,000 does it make it any less reprehensible?

Exactly. It doesnt fucking matter. If even one person was killed for being gay, its still disgusting.

As I stated in the previous thread, I 'support' the Holocaust Remembrance Day, but not the state of Israel.

*Slaps hand over NNLDT's mouth*
yes, NNLDT, it turns out that it was a tragedy... a sad chapter in Human History.

NNLDT? Shouldn't it be NNLDI?

As I stated in the previous thread, I 'support' the Holocaust Remembrance Day, but not the state of Israel.

Unlike the other thread, this has nothing to do with Israel.

Can we please have a topic on the Halocaust without it resulting to such petty bullshit as arguing over whether or not less of any group died, such ignorant bullshit as claiming any particular group didn't die, or any of the other types of bullshit people can come up with?

Unlike the other thread, this has nothing to do with Israel.

Actually, it does. Many people supported the founding of a Jewish state purely because of the Holocaust. What I'm saying is that I pay my respect to the millions of people that have died, but I do not support the founding of Israel, for the land was originally plotted out for the Palestinians who had been promised their own country, hence the British mandate of Palestine.

Can we please have a topic on the Halocaust without it resulting to such petty bullshit as arguing over whether or not less of any group died, such ignorant bullshit as claiming any particular group didn't die, or any of the other types of bullshit people can come up with?

Who's saying that any particular didn't have members killed?

Can we please have a topic on the Halocaust without it resulting to such petty bullshit as arguing over whether or not less of any group died, such ignorant bullshit as claiming any particular group didn't die, or any of the other types of bullshit people can come up with?

Good luck with that.

Once the tape measure is on the table, it is difficult the prevent the dicks from coming out.

Actually, it does. Many people supported the founding of a Jewish state purely because of the Holocaust. What I'm saying is that I pay my respect to the millions of people that have died, but I do not support the founding of Israel, for the land was originally plotted out for the Palestinians who had been promised their own country, hence the British mandate of Palestine.

The other thread was talking about that; we are trying to keep politics out of this one.

The other thread was talking about that; we are trying to keep politics out of this one.

Trying being the operative word.

Do NOT try to drag me into the argument as well. Just drop it.

You dragged yourself in.

Can we please have a topic on the Halocaust without it resulting to such petty bullshit as arguing over whether or not less of any group died, such ignorant bullshit as claiming any particular group didn't die, or any of the other types of bullshit people can come up with?

Yes, let us remember the Covenant with dignity and respect.

Do NOT try to drag me into the argument as well. Just drop it.

Eh? I'm not dragging you anywhere. The argument you were referring to doesn't exist.

For you Parkus, anything.

Thanks, Sweetheart. :fluffle:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14723017&postcount=9

This post. Of course I know it matters, and I find it disgusting. I was merely pointing out that less gays died, and that NM was right.


It's a rather simple minded argument that offers no value to the debate. Never mind the fact that Hitler would have had them rounded up if they were out in the open.

It was a crime to be a homosexual before Hitler. It was a worst crime during Hitler. It returned to being a crime after Hitler.

The number of homosexuals who died will never be known.

Wow. If you want to point to where people denied that less gays died, be my guest. You wont find anyone denying that point. There could be many reasons. Gays being harder to 'find', for example.

Less Jehovah's Witnesses died then everyone else too. Clearly they dont matter as much.:rolleyes:


Any time a group of people is targeted and murdered it fucking matters. Hundreds, thousands, millions, whatever.

EDIT: Im done feeding you after this post, and I advise everyone else to do the same. If you want to be NM's pet, fine, but make him feed you, not us.

One might keep in mind relative populations. If you have 10,000,000 Jews and 6,000,000 are slaughtered that's 60%. If you have 15,000 homosexuals and 15,000 are slaugthered that's 100%. I'm not saying that these are the percentages because I have no idea what the percentages are. I'm saying that percentages of population will give a better picture of the scope of the atrocity. That is if you really want to quantify the value of life. That is if you really feel that 100 lives ended unjustly are more important than one life ended unjustly.

My particular Holocaust observance will be recognition of those who, against impossible odds, tried to mitigate the disaster - Oskar Schindler, Irena Sendler and hosts of anonymous others.

"Never Again" should mean just that. Not "Never Again For Some, But Not Others".

^ This.

My particular Holocaust observance will be recognition of those who, against impossible odds, tried to mitigate the disaster - Oskar Schindler, Irena Sendler and hosts of anonymous others.

There's this English guy as well. He's always forgotten because he was in Austria, which is never mentioned. He got about 10,000 Jews out the country.

So....about that Holocaust.....

So....about that Holocaust.....

Yeah...it was awful. There were varying elements and facets of awfulness within it, but the point is that it was awful.

The number of homosexuals who died will never be known.

Umm, no. It's 5,000 - 15,000. And I'll say it again, so I'm not jumped upon, THAT'S STILL 15 FUCKING THOUSAND TOO MANY.

If anyone tries to derail this again, I will start handing out red cards because guess what, I'm all out of yellow. Play nice.

I hope this helps, Trve.

If anyone tries to derail this again, I will start handing out red cards because guess what, I'm all out of yellow. Play nice.

I love how this thread went from 7 pages to 3.:D

Yeah...it was awful. There were varying elements and facets of awfulness within it, but the point is that it was awful.

I still regard it as the worst atrocity, as it was so deliberate, so immediate, so cold and calculated, no empathy, no remorse, no excuses, no mistakes, it was completely planned out, it showed how brutal humanity could be.

Nie Wieder.

Eh? My comment about the true number of homosexuals not being known was childish bickering?

Eh? My comment about the true number of homosexuals not being known was childish bickering?

Easier to mow the lawn and all that.

Thanks Kyro, but I think there are some you left out:

So it does turn out way less (and I still think it's 5,000 - 15,000 too many) gays died than Jews, Gypsies etc?

Please don't carry this argument in from the last thread...

Wow. If you want to point to where people denied that less gays died, be my guest. You wont find anyone denying that point. There could be many reasons. Gays being harder to 'find', for example.

Less Jehovah's Witnesses died then everyone else too. Clearly they dont matter as much.:rolleyes:


Any time a group of people is targeted and murdered it fucking matters. Hundreds, thousands, millions, whatever.

EDIT: Im done feeding you after this post, and I advise everyone else to do the same. If you want to be NM's pet, fine, but make him feed you, not us.

Where did I say that? I explicitly said in my post that 5,000 - 15,000 is 5,000 - 15,000 too many. I think persecution of people for things they cannot help or control, and aren't even problems, is disgusting. I was just pointing out that less gays were killed.

You know, we can read the numbers ourselves ;)

Does it really matter how many human beings of any kind were brutally slaughtered for no reason except that Hitler and/or his followers wanted it - 60 or 6,000,000 does it make it any less reprehensible?

DI, I think this thread will suffer the other Holocaust thread's fate. :(

Exactly. It doesnt fucking matter. If even one person was killed for being gay, its still disgusting.

Who's saying that any particular didn't have members killed?

The other thread was talking about that; we are trying to keep politics out of this one.

Trying being the operative word.

You dragged yourself in.

Eh? I'm not dragging you anywhere. The argument you were referring to doesn't exist.

Umm, no. It's 5,000 - 15,000. And I'll say it again, so I'm not jumped upon, THAT'S STILL 15 FUCKING THOUSAND TOO MANY.

What I think is important to remember is that it wasnt only ethnic minorities, etc that were targeted, but a lot of political enemies as well. Thats something that gets forgotten a lot.

Jesus Christ. Half the threads gone.

What I could never understand about the Holocaust, is why Hitler didn't just wait until after the war to kill his political enemies. Surely if he'd conscripted the "unclean" races, then they would've won the war? Especially considering they wouldn't have had to use so many troops to guard ghettoes, camps, etc?

Thanks Kyro, but I think there are some you left out:

What? How are either of mine childish or bickering?

Eh? My comment about the true number of homosexuals not being known was childish bickering?

Sorry, it seems to have been caught in my sweep. I've restored it.

I don't get why the rememberence day is just after Hitler's birthday.

What? How are either of mine childish or bickering?

I didn't say they were, just that they're off topic and pointless now that most of that conversation has been erased from this thread.

Sorry, it seems to have been caught in my sweep. I've restored it.

No worries. I was curious to the reason. Sometimes you think you are being brilliant and you turn out being childish. ;)

What I could never understand about the Holocaust, is why Hitler didn't just wait until after the war to kill his political enemies. Surely if he'd conscripted the "unclean" races, then they would've won the war? Especially considering they wouldn't have had to use so many troops to guard ghettoes, camps, etc?

If I remember correctly, there's still some debate over whether Hitler directly ordered it or whether it was a product of cumulative radicalization inherent in the chaotic Nazi system of government where all his subordinates were competing to "work towards the Fuhrer", doing what they thought Hitler would want them to do. I find it difficult to believe he didn't at least give verbal consent for something so significant, but the point is that in this kind of system, practicality goes out the window and everything goes to extremes with the radical momentum.

If I remember correctly, there's still some debate over whether Hitler directly ordered it or whether it was a product of cumulative radicalization inherent in the Nazi system when all his subordinates were competing to "work towards the Fuhrer", doing what they thought Hitler would want them to do. In that kind of system, practicality goes out the window and everything goes to extremes.

This guy is the worst.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich

What I think is important to remember is that it wasnt only ethnic minorities, etc that were targeted, but a lot of political enemies as well. Thats something that gets forgotten a lot.

Exactly.

I know this is kind of unrelated, but we must never forget Otto Wels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Wels), a man of courage and principle who stood up to Hitler when few other people had the courage to do so. Every living person should admire this man, regardless of their political convictions. It's a shame that a man this honest and principled isn't included among the pantheon of heroes with the likes of MLK, Jr., Rosa Parks, Gandhi, and the like.

This guy is the worst.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich

Thank God he met the end he so richly deserved.

If I remember correctly, there's still some debate over whether Hitler directly ordered it or whether it was a product of cumulative radicalization inherent in the chaotic Nazi system of government where all his subordinates were competing to "work towards the Fuhrer", doing what they thought Hitler would want them to do. I find it difficult to believe he didn't at least give verbal consent for something so significant, but the point is that in this kind of system, practicality goes out the window and everything goes to extremes with the radical momentum.

But it's not as if he didn't like it, or tried to stop it, or even postpone it to fight of the Soviets and the Allies.

Thank God he met the end he so richly deserved.

A slow agonising death in hospital. I hope he was conscious for that week he remained alive.

A slow agonising death in hospital. I hope he was conscious for that week he remained alive.

Me, too.

But it's not as if he didn't like it, or tried to stop it, or even postpone it to fight of the Soviets and the Allies.

Well, no. But expecting rationality from Hitler is a bit like expecting to get champagne from squeezing a lemon.

Never again. *moment of silence from me*

If anyone tries to derail this again, I will start handing out red cards because guess what, I'm all out of yellow. Play nice.

I hope this helps, Trve.

*+500 respect points , + 300 people not to mess with*
*level up!*


more to the point, Never Again.

Well, no. But expecting rationality from Hitler is a bit like expecting to get champagne from squeezing a lemon.

Hitler?

I call Godw*gets shot*

Never Ever Again

http://www.thescreamonline.com/images7-1/nonsequitur.jpg

and from the other thread.

I still remember the story that my grandpa told me. He was serving in the military during WW II, and one day his troop went to a concentration camp. He never told us what he saw in there, and this was a man who would vividly describe the landing on Normandy Beach. Anyways, after he came out of the Concentration camp, he told his commanding officer to never, ever make him go in one of those before. He'd rather go down in a hail of gun fire than to go into another camp.

http://www.thescreamonline.com/images7-1/nonsequitur.jpg

I saw this strip once. Great strip. Has its intended effect, too.

:(

Hitler?

I call Godw*gets shot*

This is getting to be a habit for you, isn't it? :p

Never Ever Again
Not until the 1960s, at least.

This is getting to be a habit for you, isn't it? :p

Oh, no, not at a*gets sh*gets shot**

What I could never understand about the Holocaust, is why Hitler didn't just wait until after the war to kill his political enemies. Surely if he'd conscripted the "unclean" races, then they would've won the war? Especially considering they wouldn't have had to use so many troops to guard ghettoes, camps, etc?

If I remember correctly, there's still some debate over whether Hitler directly ordered it or whether it was a product of cumulative radicalization inherent in the chaotic Nazi system of government where all his subordinates were competing to "work towards the Fuhrer", doing what they thought Hitler would want them to do. I find it difficult to believe he didn't at least give verbal consent for something so significant, but the point is that in this kind of system, practicality goes out the window and everything goes to extremes with the radical momentum.
There was a little club of Jew-killers among Hitler's inner circle, but it was the inner circle, so I don't believe for a second he did not know about it. Then of course, there are all the orders concerning the camps and the "Final Solution" that Hitler himself signed off on, so I think any quibbles over what Hitler knew and when he knew are crap. He knew, he approved, he signed off on it.

As for why they didn't wait until after the war, many History Channel specials about it indicate that they probably were going to do exactly what NNLDI suggests -- use the prisoners for slave labor until their Reich was completely established (and rebuilt after the war) and then kill them, but they could see perfectly well that they were running out of time, that they were likely to lose the war. So they ramped up the extermination efforts, converting labor camps into death camps. All of the serious, factory-line killing started relatively close to the end of the war. Before, they just worked and starved people to death. Later, they were just shoveling people into the gas chambers, straight off the trains. Those sick, evil bastards, knowing they were going to lose, just wanted to kill as many Jews as they could before they lost power.

The scum.

I personally think it was poor for the UN to simply issue a Holocaust Remembrance Day, instead of not issuing a day to remember all genocides throughout history many of which have also happened in the past 200 years.

Why is the holocaust more important or disgusting than other genocides? Why don't other genocides deserve the same treatment as the Holocaust?

I personally think it was poor for the UN to simply issue a Holocaust Remembrance Day, instead of not issuing a day to remember all genocides throughout history many of which have also happened in the past 200 years.

Why is the holocaust more important or disgusting than other genocides? Why don't other genocides deserve the same treatment as the Holocaust?

Probably because it's the best-known and because it occurred (fairly) recently. But I agree, all genocides should be remembered, whether they're world (in)famous, like the Holocaust, or relatively unknown, like the genocide of the Herero in Namibia.

Probably because it's the best-known and because it occurred (fairly) recently. But I agree, all genocides should be remembered, whether they're world (in)famous, like the Holocaust, or relatively unknown, like the genocide of the Herero in Namibia.

Well I'm sure that's part of the reason that it is best known but Stalin was still committing his atrocities well after the end of WWII. I suppose Latvians, lithuanians, Polish and others don't have the same influence over people as other people. Regardless the UN should be bringing attention and remembrance to all genocides and the people killed as part of them rather than just one.

I personally think it was poor for the UN to simply issue a Holocaust Remembrance Day, instead of not issuing a day to remember all genocides throughout history many of which have also happened in the past 200 years.

Why is the holocaust more important or disgusting than other genocides? Why don't other genocides deserve the same treatment as the Holocaust?

I completely agree; a day should be issued to remember all historic genocides. However, I think that most people treat the Holocaust in this manner because it involved more deaths than any other genocide in a relatively short period of time. In addition, many of the methods used by the Nazi supremacists have, unfortunately, served as a basis for modern day perpetrators of genocide.

Although all genocides should be remembered, and regretted in a day of dedication, it may not draw as much attention as Holocaust Remembrance Day, simply because the term "Holocaust" seems to strike a chord with many people, including the affected and unaffected.

Well I'm sure that's part of the reason that it is best known but Stalin was still committing his atrocities well after the end of WWII. I suppose Latvians, lithuanians, Polish and others don't have the same influence over people as other people. Regardless the UN should be bringing attention and remembrance to all genocides and the people killed as part of them rather than just one.

Eh, Stalin didnt really kill people because they were a certian ethnicity.


Stalin killed people because he was Stalin.

I personally think it was poor for the UN to simply issue a Holocaust Remembrance Day, instead of not issuing a day to remember all genocides throughout history many of which have also happened in the past 200 years.

Why is the holocaust more important or disgusting than other genocides? Why don't other genocides deserve the same treatment as the Holocaust?

You're right. I will 'remember' that many jews and others were killed, not all executed-most died from typhus. Also there were never 6 million jews in the areas that were taken over by the Nazis-proof is in the census at the time before the war and a bunch of documents that have come up that israel is still trying to keep out of the publics eyes. There was another time in history that the jews cried over 6 million...so is it just a coincidence or an accepted exaggeration??

Also remember the victims of Dresden, the Albanians, the Rwandans, the Native Americans, the Japanese, the Chinese....nope just the poor jews get the attention. Never mind that when Rwandans were murdered, there has never been a death rate of so many that quick at anytime in history except by a natural disaster, the Japanese didn't even have as many casualties that quick with 2 A bombs dropped on them....:confused:

You're right. I will 'remember' that many jews and others were killed, not all executed-most died from typhus. Also there were never 6 million jews in the areas that were taken over by the Nazis-proof is in the census at the time before the war and a bunch of documents that have come up that israel is still trying to keep out of the publics eyes. There was another time in history that the jews cried over 6 million...so is it just a coincidence or an accepted exaggeration??

Haha. I was waiting for a holocaust denier.

Also remember the victims of Dresden, the Albanians, the Rwandans, the Native Americans, the Japanese, the Chinese....nope just the poor jews get the attention. Never mind that when Rwandans were murdered, more died in 24 hours, the Japanese didn't even have as many casualties that quick with 2 a bombs dropped on them....:confused:

And we all care about those too.

Eh, Stalin didnt really kill people because they were a certian ethnicity.


Stalin killed people because he was Stalin.

Stalin doesn't kill people. People kill people.

>.>

<.<

*Gets shot*

You're right. I will 'remember' that many jews and others were killed, not all executed-most died from typhus. Also there were never 6 million jews in the areas that were taken over by the Nazis-proof is in the census at the time before the war and a bunch of documents that have come up that israel is still trying to keep out of the publics eyes. There was another time in history that the jews cried over 6 million...so is it just a coincidence or an accepted exaggeration??

The few "historians" making this claim have very dubious credentials at best.

You're right. I will 'remember' that many jews and others were killed, not all executed-most died from typhus. Also there were never 6 million jews in the areas that were taken over by the Nazis-proof is in the census at the time before the war and a bunch of documents that have come up that israel is still trying to keep out of the publics eyes. There was another time in history that the jews cried over 6 million...so is it just a coincidence or an accepted exaggeration??


You also forgot to note that before World War II, Germany was just a nation in Northern Europe. During the war it included many parts of Northern Africa, Eastern Europe, and parts of the Middle East. 6 million Jews may not have been inside Germany before the war, but during the war, there were far more. Second of all, these numbers were created under harsh scrutiny of many nations; they were not just manufactured by Israel, looking for attention. And yes, many Jews did die of typhus, but they wouldn't have to worry about that if they weren't exposed to such inhumane conditions, now would they?

You also forgot to note that before World War II, Germany was just a nation in Northern Europe. During the war it included many parts of Northern Africa, Eastern Europe, and parts of the Middle East. 6 million Jews may not have been inside Germany before the war, but during the war, there were far more. Second of all, these numbers were created under harsh scrutiny of many nations; they were not just manufactured by Israel, looking for attention. And yes, many Jews did die of typhus, but they wouldn't have to worry about that if they weren't exposed to such inhumane conditions, now would they?

No no, you dont understand, its all a ZOG plot.

Haha. I was waiting for a holocaust denier.

not a denier, just show some real proof....numbers don't lie. where are all the records?? the nazis were known for their meticulous record keeping. Why is the austrian government being threatened with sanctions if they release a bunch of files?? Why is israel fighting tooth and nail to keep certain documents/records sealed?? search for your self, its not denial, its common sense. 4.1 million jews (documented) lived across the nazi's occupied territories...where did the other 2 million come from?? Also, what about the 3 million that didn't die?? What about the 1.6 million jews that were executed along with 1.1m German/axis and Nazi POWs through 1951?? Why is it that the supposed gas chambers in Auschwitz had no seals on the doors?? I know that many jews were murdered by the SS for being jewish, but there are also exaggerations and straight out lies that were told also.

You also forgot to note that before World War II, Germany was just a nation in Northern Europe. During the war it included many parts of Northern Africa, Eastern Europe, and parts of the Middle East. 6 million Jews may not have been inside Germany before the war, but during the war, there were far more. Second of all, these numbers were created under harsh scrutiny of many nations; they were not just manufactured by Israel, looking for attention. And yes, many Jews did die of typhus, but they wouldn't have to worry about that if they weren't exposed to such inhumane conditions, now would they?

Exactly.

Eh, Stalin didnt really kill people because they were a certian ethnicity.


Stalin killed people because he was Stalin.

Well not everyone Hitler killed because they were a certain ethnicity.

So what about other genocides around the world which are not be remembered by the UN, no we are only going to focus on one, do not the others matter as much? Aren't they as terrible as the holocaust?

not a denier, just show some real proof....numbers don't lie. where are all the records?? the nazis were known for their meticulous record keeping. Why is the austrian government being threatened with sanctions if they release a bunch of files?? Why is israel fighting tooth and nail to keep certain documents/records sealed?? search for your self, its not denial, its common sense. 4.1 million jews (documented) lived across the nazi's occupied territories...where did the other 2 million come from?? Also, what about the 3 million that didn't die?? What about the 1.6 million jews that were executed along with 1.1m German/axis and Nazi POWs through 1951?? Why is it that the supposed gas chambers in Auschwitz had no seals on the doors?? I know that many jews were murdered by the SS for being jewish, but there are also exaggerations and straight out lies that were told also.

Lets see proof of any of this. And Stormfront doesnt count.

Also remember the victims of Dresden, the Albanians, the Rwandans, the Native Americans, the Japanese, the Chinese....nope just the poor jews get the attention. Never mind that when Rwandans were murdered, there has never been a death rate of so many that quick at anytime in history except by a natural disaster, the Japanese didn't even have as many casualties that quick with 2 A bombs dropped on them....:confused:

Dresden and Hiroshima/Nagasaki weren't genocides. They were atrocities and arguably war crimes. Also, yes, the genocide that occurred in Rwanda is absolutely mind-boggling, with a higher death ratio than anything else recorded, and primarily carried out by machete.

The Holocaust deserves a certain special attention because, as I said earlier, it was such an industrialized process. That's what's most terrifying about it as a specific incidence of human brutality.

not a denier, just show some real proof....numbers don't lie. where are all the records?? the nazis were known for their meticulous record keeping. Why is the austrian government being threatened with sanctions if they release a bunch of files?? Why is israel fighting tooth and nail to keep certain documents/records sealed?? search for your self, its not denial, its common sense. 4.1 million jews (documented) lived across the nazi's occupied territories...where did the other 2 million come from?? Also, what about the 3 million that didn't die?? What about the 1.6 million jews that were executed along with 1.1m German/axis and Nazi POWs through 1951?? Why is it that the supposed gas chambers in Auschwitz had no seals on the doors?? I know that many jews were murdered by the SS for being jewish, but there are also exaggerations and straight out lies that were told also.


Yeah, because I'm sure that survivors of the Holocaust just made up the same horror story to scare everyone.

not a denier, just show some real proof....numbers don't lie. where are all the records?? the nazis were known for their meticulous record keeping. Why is the austrian government being threatened with sanctions if they release a bunch of files?? Why is israel fighting tooth and nail to keep certain documents/records sealed?? search for your self, its not denial, its common sense. 4.1 million jews (documented) lived across the nazi's occupied territories...where did the other 2 million come from?? Also, what about the 3 million that didn't die?? What about the 1.6 million jews that were executed along with 1.1m German/axis and Nazi POWs through 1951?? Why is it that the supposed gas chambers in Auschwitz had no seals on the doors?? I know that many jews were murdered by the SS for being jewish, but there are also exaggerations and straight out lies that were told also.

There are thousands of scholarly publications documenting the Holocaust in exhaustive detail. All the Holocaust "revisionists" have is baseless speculation or, at best, flimsy "evidence" that wouldn't survive more than a few seconds of scrutiny.

You also forgot to note that before World War II, Germany was just a nation in Northern Europe. During the war it included many parts of Northern Africa, Eastern Europe, and parts of the Middle East. 6 million Jews may not have been inside Germany before the war, but during the war, there were far more. Second of all, these numbers were created under harsh scrutiny of many nations; they were not just manufactured by Israel, looking for attention. And yes, many Jews did die of typhus, but they wouldn't have to worry about that if they weren't exposed to such inhumane conditions, now would they?
Same could be said about the Russian gulags and the US internment camps for Japanese Americans. I still have some of the newspaper articles about the diseases and the relocation papers sent to my grand parents telling them that are being relocated because of this. That is right here in Newport News in what is now the Copeland Park business district. In 1992 I worked out there and the CDC and ACoE was there to supervise the removal of soils that were still contaminated...:rolleyes:

Lets see proof of any of this. And Stormfront doesnt count.

Neither does David Irving.

Same could be said about the Russian gulags and the US internment camps for Japanese Americans. I still have some of the newspaper articles about the diseases and the relocation papers sent to my grand parents telling them that are being relocated because of this. That is right here in Newport News in what is now the Copeland Park business district. In 1992 I worked out there and the CDC and ACoE was there to supervise the removal of soils that were still contaminated...:rolleyes:


Anecdotal evidence that I dont believe. Still waiting.

Positive:
Communists 2–3 million
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000
2,202,500-3,255,000

Negative:
Jews 5.9 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
8,005,000-9,615,000

Final Score: -5,802,500 to -6,360,000

Yes, the Holocaust was a bad thing

Anecdotal evidence that I dont believe. Still waiting.

Don't hold your breath, Trve.

Positive:
Communists 2–3 million
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000
2,202,500-3,255,000

Negative:
Jews 5.9 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
8,005,000-9,615,000

Final Score: -5,802,500 to -6,360,000

Yes, the Holocaust was a bad thing

How is killing communists, disabled people, or Jehovah's Witnesses "positive?"

Positive:
Communists 2–3 million
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000
2,202,500-3,255,000

Negative:
Jews 5.9 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
8,005,000-9,615,000

Final Score: -5,802,500 to -6,360,000

Yes, the Holocaust was a bad thing

ROFL

At you that is.

Positive:
Communists 2–3 million
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000
2,202,500-3,255,000

Negative:
Jews 5.9 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
8,005,000-9,615,000

Final Score: -5,802,500 to -6,360,000

Yes, the Holocaust was a bad thing

I like your factual evidence. I think it's safe to say that every disabled person is possessed and every Russian supported communism.

Positive:
Communists 2–3 million
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000
2,202,500-3,255,000

I'd not celebrate that if I were you. The mentally handicapped were also killed, you know.

I'd not celebrate that. The mentally handicapped were also killed, you know.

Yeah he included the communists. :p

I don't understand Holocaust deniers. Why do they deny it? What's their point?

Yeah he included the communists. :p

Communists are not mentally handicapped.

Edit: I assume you are joking, though, due to the inclusion of the ":p"

I don't understand Holocaust deniers. Why do they deny it? What's their point?

They are either attention whores or severely allergic to the truth.

Communists are not mentally disabled.

*Sigh*

There are reasons why people include smilies in their posts.

*Sigh*

There are reasons why people include smilies in their posts.

I edited my post. :)

I edited my post. :)

Just saw it cheers, yes it was a joke ;)

*Sigh*

There are reasons why people include smilies in their posts.

I agree. :confused: And it's fine. :mad: I know you meant no harm. :soap:

Anyways, I gotta get back to work. Have a good night. :upyours:

I agree. :confused: And it's fine. :mad: I know you meant no harm. :soap:

Anyways, I gotta get back to work. Have a good night. :upyours:

lol

This sort of thing will get you shot H2. :D

lol

This sort of thing will get you shot H2. :D

Oh, I'm sure he's used to it. ;)

lol

This sort of thing will get you shot H2. :D

*quickly conceals gun behind his back*

Oh, I'm sure he's used to it. ;)

What do you mea*gets shot*

What do you mea*gets shot*

My irony meter just exploded. :p

Eh, Stalin didnt really kill people because they were a certian ethnicity.


Stalin killed people because he was Stalin.
Stalin was extremely anti-semetic and certainly often singled out Jews 'because they were Jewish.'

Okay folks, documents on the holocaust detailing the atocities from the Nazi's themselves: http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/resource/DOCUMENT/document.htm

Visual evidence, pictures from the holocaust: http://http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blpictures.htm (http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blpictures.htm)

And yes from the Boer War to Dafur, the madness continues. Never forget? How could we.

And for those of you convinced these documents and pictures are made up, I here there are some lovely vacation spots in the Central African Republic.

Okay folks, documents on the holocaust detailing the atocities from the Nazi's themselves: http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/resource/DOCUMENT/document.htm

Visual evidence, pictures from the holocaust: http://http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blpictures.htm (http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blpictures.htm)

And yes from the Boer War to Dafur, the madness continues. Never forget? How could we.

And for those of you convinced these documents and pictures are made up, I here there are some lovely vacation spots in the Central African Republic.

The CAR has some lovely national parks. And no, the documents are not made up. :p

Stalin was extremely anti-semetic and certainly often singled out Jews 'because they were Jewish.'
True. But then there were not a lot of Jews hiding among the Ukrainians. I'd say that Stalin killed anybody he felt like killing at any moment, but he did indeed hate every single one of them for something.

Actually, I would say the same about Hitler. Scumbags like Heydrich definitely had a sick obsession with Jews over other groups, but I don't believe Hitler would have stopped at Jews, Gypsies, gays, and political opponents if he had won the war and held onto power. No one -- nobody -- would have been safe.

Okay folks, documents on the holocaust detailing the atocities from the Nazi's themselves: http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/resource/DOCUMENT/document.htm

Visual evidence, pictures from the holocaust: http://http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blpictures.htm (http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blpictures.htm)

And yes from the Boer War to Dafur, the madness continues. Never forget? How could we.

And for those of you convinced these documents and pictures are made up, I here there are some lovely vacation spots in the Central African Republic.
Thank you! I was going to do that, but I was waiting for my brain to stop boiling from that other poster's complaint of "not a denier...just show some real proof. Numbers don't lie..." I mean, how does he think we know any of this shit anyway? The Nazis compiled all our best evidence themselves!

So it does turn out way less (and I still think it's 5,000 - 15,000 too many) gays died than Jews, Gypsies etc?

"How many deaths will it take 'till he knows/That too many people have died?"

Bob Dylan had the right idea when he wrote "Blowin' In The Wind."

Any deaths as a result of the Holocaust are horrendous. We'll pay an emotional price that won't go away for another hundred years.

True. But then there were not a lot of Jews hiding among the Ukrainians. I'd say that Stalin killed anybody he felt like killing at any moment, but he did indeed hate every single one of them for something.
I'm not going to argue that Stalin didn't hate everyone, but he 100% also hated Jews often 'because they were Jewish'.

According to historian Iakov Etinger, many Soviet state purges of the 1930s were anti-Semitic in nature, and after more intense anti-Semitic policy toward the end of World War II,[3] Stalin in 1946 allegedly said privately that "every Jew is a potential spy."[12][3] A few years later, after purportedly ordering the development of bombers capable of reaching America and supposedly convinced that Harry Truman was Jewish, Stalin reportedly remarked in private that "we will show this Jewish shopkeeper how to attack us!"[13]

The antisemitic campaign of 1948-1953 against so-called "rootless cosmopolitans," destruction of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, the fabrication of the "Doctors' plot," the rise of "Zionology" were officially carried out under the banner of "anti-Zionism," but the use of this term could not obscure the antisemitic content of these campaigns,[original research?] and by the mid-1950s the state persecution of Soviet Jews emerged as a major human rights issue in the West and domestically.

Actually, I would say the same about Hitler. Scumbags like Heydrich definitely had a sick obsession with Jews over other groups, but I don't believe Hitler would have stopped at Jews, Gypsies, gays, and political opponents if he had won the war and held onto power. No one -- nobody -- would have been safe.
Agreed, mostly. I also think Hitler had a sick obsession with Jews over other groups, though . . . and you can see it if you read Mein Kampf. :p

Eh, Stalin didnt really kill people because they were a certian ethnicity.


Stalin killed people because he was Stalin.

Mass operations of the NKVD also targeted "national contingents" (foreign ethnicities), such as Poles, Ethnic Germans, Koreans, etc. A total of 350,000 (144,000 of them Poles) were arrested and 247,157 (110,000 Poles) were executed.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

And I feel like I should also post something on topic.

The Holocaust was awful, for every individual in it, whether Jewish or non-Jewish, gay or straight, religious or not.

I'd like to visit Auschwitz one day.

And I feel like I should also post something on topic.

The Holocaust was awful, for every individual in it, whether Jewish or non-Jewish, gay or straight, religious or not.

I'd like to visit Auschwitz one day.

Not me. I could never handle it. Way too intense for me.

Not me. I could never handle it. Way too intense for me.

I went to Dachau when I was in München. It wasn't "horrible" to be there. You know what was done...

Not me. I could never handle it. Way too intense for me.

Well, when I was studying in Germany we were taken to visit Dachau, and it was quite interesting to visit, but I felt that I should see Auschwitz to actually try to comprehend how the Holocaust was because, well, Dachau was actually a work camp and not officially a death camp.

I went to Dachau when I was in München. It wasn't "horrible" to be there. You know what was done...
Ah, I didn't know you'd been to Munich before. When and how come?

And for me, the strangest thing about the Dachau camp was of how....close it was to civilization. It's literally a suburb of Munich.

Ah, I didn't know you'd been to Munich before. When and how come?

And for me, the strangest thing about the Dachau camp was of how....close it was to civilization. It's literally a suburb of Munich.

My mother had a couple of friends living in the Taufkirchen Neighborhood of Munich. We spent a while in Germany with them as hosts. Don't tell me you've been to the Donisl Restaurant too. :p

And yeah, if I recall correctly, the camp could be seen from some houses. It's like Desperate Housewives, only with a concentration camp right by it.

My mother had a couple of friends living in the Taufkirchen Neighborhood of Munich. We spent a while in Germany with them as hosts. Don't tell me you've been to the Donisl Restaurant too. :p
Verrrry cool. I love Munich. How did you like the city? Are you a beer drinker? :p

Nah, I haven't. I have, of course been to the Hofbräuhaus though. More than once. ;)



And yeah, if I recall correctly, the camp could be seen from some houses. It's like Desperate Housewives with a concentration camp right by it.
Well, they could see the compound atleast, not into the camp. . . but yeah, that was a bit freaky to me. :confused:

Verrrry cool. I love Munich. How did you like the city? Are you a beer drinker? :p

Nah, I haven't. I have, of course been to the Hofbräuhaus though. More than once. ;)




Well, they could see the compound atleast, not into the camp. . . but yeah, that was a bit freaky to me. :confused:

1- I liked it quite a lot, yes. We went to Salzburg too, and so on. I don't drink, though...

2- Sorry, don't know what that is. Well, wait. Bräu, brew. Haus, house, obvious. Right. Well, yeah, I don't think I visited (or got enough interest to remember) a brewery, sorry. :p

3- Well, yes, but the compound can be seen. Mind you, those things - all of them - require civilization. Those people got the worst part of all that is called civilization, but they got civilization...

Ah, I didn't know you'd been to Munich before. When and how come?

And for me, the strangest thing about the Dachau camp was of how....close it was to civilization. It's literally a suburb of Munich.

The question is, however, while Dachau is very close to houses was it like that in the 1930's-1940's. I am sure Munich has grown since then.

1- I liked it quite a lot, yes. We went to Salzburg too, and so on. I don't drink, though...
Ah, well then I'm glad you atleast enjoyed Central Europe. Even if you missed a vital component of its culture. ;)

2- Sorry, don't know what that is...
Well, if I told you I'd have to kill you. :p

3- Well, yes, but the compound can be seen. Mind you, those things - all of them - require civilization. Those people got the worst part of all that is called civilization, but they got civilization...
I meant, from studying the holocaust, I got the impression that the camps were like out in the middle of butt-fucking-nowhere, Eastern Europe. But from actually going there, I realized that some of the camps were located in literally the middle of neighborhoods that are only suburbs of big cities like Munich. It was a huge shock.

The question is, however, while Dachau is very close to houses was it like that in the 1930's-1940's. I am sure Munich has grown since then.

I don't think people would choose to live near a concentration camp AFTER realizing what it was.

And yeah, if I recall correctly, the camp could be seen from some houses. It's like Desperate Housewives, only with a concentration camp right by it.

But it may have been like living near a jail. After all people knew political prisoners were being sent there first.

2- Sorry, don't know what that is.

You don't know about the Hofbrauhaus? :eek:

Next time you are there you must go and I recommend having the Roast Pork Knuckle.

Ah, well then I'm glad you atleast enjoyed Central Europe. Even if you missed a vital component of its culture. ;)


Well, if I told you I'd have to kill you. :p


I meant, from studying the holocaust, I got the impression that the camps were like out in the middle of butt-fucking-nowhere, Eastern Europe. But from actually going there, I realized that some of the camps were located in literally the middle of neighborhoods that are only suburbs of big cities like Munich. It was a huge shock.

1- Oh, I did enjoy.

2- Ethymology. It cures what ails ya. :p

3- Sometime I'd like to see a suicide rate research of people living near concentration camps in relation to people who don't...

I don't think people would choose to live near a concentration camp AFTER realizing what it was.

I don't know I wouldn't have much qualms living near Dachau, Aushwitz maybe Dachau not so much. Really depends what the neighbourhood is like.

But it may have been like living near a jail. After all people knew political prisoners were being sent there first.

There is "knowing" and KNOWING.

They "knew". Now they KNOW.

I "know" Katrina was bad. Ray Nagin KNOWS.

There is "knowing" and KNOWING.

They "knew". Now they KNOW.

I "know" Katrina was bad. Ray Nagin KNOWS.

Is that kind of what I am saying in regards to this hypothesis?

The question is, however, while Dachau is very close to houses was it like that in the 1930's-1940's. I am sure Munich has grown since then.
Of course. Dachau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau)has been a village/town since like the stone age, lol. Literally. I mean, the camp wasn't built directly in the centrum of town, but it's a bit off to the side of town, on the east side.

Is that kind of what I am saying in regards to this hypothesis?

I don't know, man. :p

I don't know, man. :p

Well you were talking about them living right near one, I was suggesting that they knew something was going on in their but the didn't know what it was but as they knew that some people going their were political prisoner then they wouldn't mind living there as it is similar to living near a jail. Besides that the camp would have been built after these people had moved in.

Of course. Dachau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau)has been a village/town since like the stone age, lol. Literally. I mean, the camp wasn't built directly in the centrum of town, but it's a bit off to the side of town, on the east side.

No need to laugh, I wasn't aware of that I was thinking more along the lines of the expansion of Munich. IIRC Dachau is within the A99 or A90 (I forget) and was using that as a basis of Munich. I do not correctly recall the layout of Dachau only been there once and that was simply to visit the camp.

Well you were talking about them living right near one, I was suggesting that they knew something was going on in their but the didn't know what it was but as they knew that some people going their were political prisoner then they wouldn't mind living there as it is similar to living near a jail. Besides that the camp would have been built after these people had moved in.

We can assume they even knew people died and suffered there.

Hitler was extremely successful in making groups into "the Other". They might know fully well. It was like...

It was like living near a slaughterhouse for them. Humans weren't being tortured there. Communists were. Jews were. Homosexuals were. And so on. The Other was being tortured there. The Not-Us, the Monster. Das Unheimlisce. Die Üntermenschen. And, thus, good, normal people allowed that. Group psychology. Boys will be boys, the Nazi regime will be the Nazi regime.

We can assume they even knew people died and suffered there.

Hitler was extremely successful in making groups into "the Other". They might know fully well. It was like...

It was like living near a slaughterhouse for them. Humans weren't being tortured there. Communists were. Jews were. Homosexuals were. And so on. The Other was being tortured there. And, thus, good, normal people allowed that. Group psychology.
I mean, I'm willing to bet that people knew bad stuff was going on, maybe even stories from prison guards or rumors from people who had heard stuff from prison guards, but the German government was certainly serious about keeping the official explanation of what was going on there top secret. It wasn't exactly public information.

No need to laugh, I wasn't aware of that I was thinking more along the lines of the expansion of Munich. IIRC Dachau is within the A99 or A90 (I forget) and was using that as a basis of Munich. I do not correctly recall the layout of Dachau only been there once and that was simply to visit the camp.
I wasn't really laughing. I suppose that post could have done without the 'lol', sorry.

Dachau is about 20km from Munich.

Dachau is about 20km from Munich.

Can be reached easily by their (pretty good!) subway system.

I wasn't really laughing. I suppose that post could have done without the 'lol', sorry.

Dachau is about 20km from Munich.

Shit, just looked on the map and it is much further out than I remembered. I thought it was within the A99 but yes it is a fair way out. It didn't seem to take that long to get there but I guess that is due to the good road network within Germany and the good flow of traffic, something we don't yet hve herein Australia. Not to mention the difference in how cities and the population is settled in Germany.

Can be reached easily by their (pretty good!) subway system.

Best public transport system I have ever been on, though since it was out of the centre of the city (by a lot) we used the car that and I went to Nymphenberg in the afternoon.

Can be reached easily by their (pretty good!) subway system.
It's not a subway, it doesn't go underground! :p

Shit, just looked on the map and it is much further out than I remembered. I thought it was within the A99 but yes it is a fair way out. It didn't seem to take that long to get there but I guess that is due to the good road network within Germany and the good flow of traffic, something we don't yet hve herein Australia. Not to mention the difference in how cities and the population is settled in Germany.
You probably would have taken the Munich S-Bahn. It connects Munich to its suburbs, like Dachau.

We can assume they even knew people died and suffered there.

Hitler was extremely successful in making groups into "the Other". They might know fully well. It was like...

It was like living near a slaughterhouse for them. Humans weren't being tortured there. Communists were. Jews were. Homosexuals were. And so on. The Other was being tortured there. The Not-Us, the Monster. Das Unheimlisce. Die Üntermenschen. And, thus, good, normal people allowed that. Group psychology. Boys will be boys, the Nazi regime will be the Nazi regime.

That's true Hitler and the Nazi party did have a good propaganda system going that and alon with those that spoke out against the government were sent to places like Dachau

You probably would have taken the Munich S-Bahn. It connects Munich to its suburbs, like Dachau.

No we did drive, but then I wasn't driving but yes I used the S-Bahn when I was going to be in the city centre for the day. Very quick trip from my home base of Bad Tolz into Munich. If it was similar to Australia's it would have taken 4 times as long and may even had to have changed trains. Sorry about the rant I am just pissed at my state governments and our culture when I see the Germans making it work properly.

No we did drive, but then I wasn't driving but yes I used the S-Bahn when I was going to be in the city centre for the day. Very quick trip from my home base of Bad Tolz into Munich. If it was similar to Australia's it would have taken 4 times as long and may even had to have changed trains. Sorry about the rant I am just pissed at my state governments and our culture when I see the Germans making it work properly.
Yeah but Australia is much more open, large and spread out, I'm sure? Australia has legit reasons for not having super-efficient mass transit systems . . .

Italy, on the other hand . . . *glares at Italy*

Yeah but Australia is much more open, large and spread out, I'm sure? Australia has legit reasons for not having super-efficient mass transit systems . . .

Italy, on the other hand . . . *glares at Italy*

Not really, you see I am not talking about intercity transport but rather intracity transport. The thing to remember about Australian towns is that we have our cities in large clumps rather than in Germany that may have 5-6 individual cities spread over an area, in Australia these towns would all be together and the population would all be living in the one town. Which does mean our cities do spread out. For example Germany only has a population of 3.5 million people now considering the population of Germany is 80 million that is a smallish city. Sydney has a population of 4.3 million from a population of 21 million. I do remember driving through the countryside of Germany and you would see on the map and outside 3-4 towns surrounding you, as I say in Australia you would more likely to find it just one town.

So when I talk about public transport system I am talking about it in one town, since the town I live in has the same population as Munich and I can see that people can get around Munich and it has a good public transport system and is on time (always when I was over there) I do get pissed off that we can't get people around our town well not to mention even getting people 20km away from the centre of the city (which is still apart of the same city) with the same efficiency as in Germany.

When the town I live in is still debating if we should go electric or remain on diesel powered trains then something is wrong. But then that is just this state, we are about 15 years behind the other states.

Rom and his brown shirts were homosexuals, I guess every one had a gay old time getting drunk, braking windows beating up poor little jewish shop owners and political opponeants, and sodmising each other with the gleaful expectation of a 1000 years to go.
Oh whats that its all over in just over a decade? "Gays were persicuted, o that bad hitler he so persecuted us!"
Hitler the tramp surrounded himself with homosexuals, and is thought by many to have been one due to his frantic push to obtain his criminal records when he invaded Austria. (Not enough evidence for me however.)
Readings:
Rise and fall of the Third Reich, William L. Shirers
The fact that the Nazi party was filled with pronogrphers, sexual perverts (Homosexuals, baby rapers) and extortioners is no big secret to historians.
In Elie Wisel's famous book "Night", he decribes one of the nazi death camp commanders under the table bussiness ventures, where he prostutued out little jewish boys to homosexuals. I guess when "hitler wasn't busy pursicuting homosexuals they just happened to use their free time to mosi over to the nearest CC to rape some jewish boys.
Moreover, their was an organization in germany from the late eighteen hundreds up until the Wiermar call the "wandering youth" (Sort of like NABLA in the US-they should be exicuted.) most of the brownshirts and early nazi revolutionarys like romh came out of this organization. Look it up!
I can remember when even the atheists (Ayn Rand) and the socialists (George Orwell) could except the fact that homosexuals were (And still indeed are.) perverts. They are evil and not to be trusted.
Now did hitler use the homosexualaity of certain nazis or political opposition which were out or had fallen out of his graces to put them to public ridaquil, yes he did. But the Nazis leadership was filled with homosexuals from the revolution until the longknives and beyond. Read your history!!!!!!!!!

Rom and his brown shirts were homosexuals, I guess every one had a gay old time getting drunk, braking windows beating up poor little jewish shop owners and political opponeants, and sodmising each other with the gleaful expectation of a 1000 years to go.
Oh whats that its all over in just over a decade? "Gays were persicuted, o that bad hitler he so persecuted us!"
Hitler the tramp surrounded himself with homosexuals, and is thought by many to have been one due to his frantic push to obtain his criminal records when he invaded Austria. (Not enough evidence for me however.)
Readings:
Rise and fall of the Third Reich, William L. Shirers
The fact that the Nazi party was filled with pronogrphers, sexual perverts (Homosexuals, baby rapers) and extortioners is no big secret to historians.
In Elie Wisel's famous book "Night", he decribes one of the nazi death camp commanders under the table bussiness ventures, where he prostutued out little jewish boys to homosexuals. I guess when "hitler wasn't busy pursicuting homosexuals they just happened to use their free time to mosi over to the nearest CC to rape some jewish boys.
Moreover, their was an organization in germany from the late eighteen hundreds up until the Wiermar call the "wandering youth" (Sort of like NABLA in the US-they should be exicuted.) most of the brownshirts and early nazi revolutionarys like romh came out of this organization. Look it up!
I can remember when even the atheists (Ayn Rand) and the socialists (George Orwell) could except the fact that homosexuals were (And still indeed are.) perverts. They are evil and not to be trusted.
Now did hitler use the homosexualaity of certain nazis or political opposition which were out or had fallen out of his graces to put them to public ridaquil, yes he did. But the Nazis leadership was filled with homosexuals from the revolution until the longknives and beyond. Read your history!!!!!!!!!


Wow. You are so full of shit its not even funny.

Just read the two books I quoted, and look up the wanderingyouth on the internet.
I'm full of history (My Major) and its not funny.

Rom and his brown shirts were homosexuals, I guess every one had a gay old time getting drunk, braking windows beating up poor little jewish shop owners and political opponeants, and sodmising each other with the gleaful expectation of a 1000 years to go.
Oh whats that its all over in just over a decade? "Gays were persicuted, o that bad hitler he so persecuted us!"
Hitler the tramp surrounded himself with homosexuals, and is thought by many to have been one due to his frantic push to obtain his criminal records when he invaded Austria. (Not enough evidence for me however.)
Readings:
Rise and fall of the Third Reich, William L. Shirers
The fact that the Nazi party was filled with pronogrphers, sexual perverts (Homosexuals, baby rapers) and extortioners is no big secret to historians.
In Elie Wisel's famous book "Night", he decribes one of the nazi death camp commanders under the table bussiness ventures, where he prostutued out little jewish boys to homosexuals. I guess when "hitler wasn't busy pursicuting homosexuals they just happened to use their free time to mosi over to the nearest CC to rape some jewish boys.
Moreover, their was an organization in germany from the late eighteen hundreds up until the Wiermar call the "wandering youth" (Sort of like NABLA in the US-they should be exicuted.) most of the brownshirts and early nazi revolutionarys like romh came out of this organization. Look it up!
I can remember when even the atheists (Ayn Rand) and the socialists (George Orwell) could except the fact that homosexuals were (And still indeed are.) perverts. They are evil and not to be trusted.
Now did hitler use the homosexualaity of certain nazis or political opposition which were out or had fallen out of his graces to put them to public ridaquil, yes he did. But the Nazis leadership was filled with homosexuals from the revolution until the longknives and beyond. Read your history!!!!!!!!!

Just read the two books I quoted, and look up the wanderingyouth on the internet.
I'm full of history (My Major) and its not funny.

You're full of something mate lol

But seriously how about you provide the sources for your claim instead of us looking them up?

Just read the two books I quoted, and look up the wanderingyouth on the internet.
I believe you, really.
I'm full of history (My Major) and its not funny.
I believe you. Really.

Snip.

Shut up.

Hey, I did one better. I looked up the auther of "The Pink Swastika", where the "wandering youth" is mentioned. Scott Lively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Lively
Leader of a conservative Christian group that 'defends family values'. Also a noted anti-gay activist.

Oh, and this bears mentioning: Along with Kevin E. Abrams, he co-authored the book The Pink Swastika, a book based on supposed links between homosexuals and the Nazi Party, though professional historians have dismissed the book's claims.

Some history major you are dude. Youre an insult to my discipline. Get the fuck out of here.

The Holocaust deserves a certain special attention because, as I said earlier, it was such an industrialized process. That's what's most terrifying about it as a specific incidence of human brutality.

See the Holocaust doesn't horrify me as much as the Rwandan genocide because it was so clinical and industrialised. The Rwandan genocide terrifies me because it was so unrestrained - people just hacking others to death in the streets, nuns and priests murdering people. It was awful.

Hey, I did one better. I looked up the auther of "The Pink Swastika", where the "wandering youth" is mentioned. Scott Lively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Lively
Leader of a conservative Christian group that 'defends family values'.

Oh, and this bears mentioning:

Some history major you are dude. Get the fuck out of here.

Well done KoL, I didn't pick up the link he was trying to make till you pointed it out.

Yes, a few top Nazis were homosexuals (Ernst Röhm, for example), but no one with any knowledge of history can deny that homosexuals were viciously persecuted by the National Socialist regime.

I also cant find any evidence what so ever that anything William L. Shirers' book or Elie Wisel's book that substantiates the claim that the Nazi party was just one big militant gay pride movement.

Yes, a few top Nazis were homosexuals (Ernst Röhm, for example),

Röhm was killed by Hitler too.


So much for Hitler loving teh gayz.

I also cant find any evidence what so ever that anything William L. Shirers' book or Elie Wisel's book that substantiates the claim that the Nazi party was just one big militant gay pride movement.

Having read Shirer's book, I can attest that there is no such evidence.

Röhm was killed by Hitler too.


So much for Hitler loving teh gayz.

I never said he loved the gays. The other guy did.

Actually, it does. Many people supported the founding of a Jewish state purely because of the Holocaust. What I'm saying is that I pay my respect to the millions of people that have died, but I do not support the founding of Israel, for the land was originally plotted out for the Palestinians who had been promised their own country, hence the British mandate of Palestine.

They had their chance. They declined. Screw them. I'm sick of this whole thing with the Palestinians. Carve your chunk outta Jordan or Syria -- or are the Arab/Islamic brethren too goddamned greedy to give up a fraction of their nations? Israel has it's TINY SLIVER of land, and took the chance when it was available. The same chance was offered to the Palestinians, but because they were under the same delusion they now suffer, they just couldn't see past their own stupid delusional triumphalism to realize they were screwing themselves. Tough shit.

Israel fought off many attempts to wrest what they'd been apportioned. So the Arab/Islamic world even tried to take from them by force what was already established just because you think your God has a bigger dick than the Jews' God. Suck it, Palestinians. You blew your shot. Find another way to statehood, 'cause it's not happening through the usurpation of Israel.

Why is it these threads are inevitably hijacked? Could yez not leave it lie for once?

Rom and(....)your history!!!!!!!!!

Hitler tolerated certain Homosexuals. You're exaggerating to validate your own somewhat frothy attitude towards gay men. I'd suggest a chill pill.


Israel fought off (.....)usurpation of Israel.

I'd suggest finding out what the occupied territories are before spouting more babble.

See the Holocaust doesn't horrify me as much as the Rwandan genocide because it was so clinical and industrialised. The Rwandan genocide terrifies me because it was so unrestrained - people just hacking others to death in the streets, nuns and priests murdering people. It was awful.

I didn't mean to downplay the Rwandan genocide, it was truly a horrible thing. But, I think prior to the Holocaust, people saw technological progress as a way to subdue our more violent nature--that as our industries grows, our tendencies toward cruelty and what can only be called insanity will eventually subside. The Holocaust quite pointedly proved that wrong. That's why when people ask how the Holocaust was successful, I always have to point that out. The genocide itself wasn't the terrifying aspect (again, be sure to not misinterpret this as downplaying a genocide...each and every one is terrible), it was the calculated, clinical psychopathy of not just a single person but, at least an entire subset of society, if not the greater society as a whole.

-SNIP-

Nod-sama, check your TGs, please.

why is it these threads are inevitably hijacked? Could yez not leave it lie for once?

THIS! IS! NSG!!!!

mandatory lowercase letters

AP Article from Isreal (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iMSPfNKtxFpBDnjVpVXaiRfn-HwAD97MSI1O0)

Only by acknowledging what happened and exposing those who deny it can we prevent it happening again.
The problem I have with this is that the article, like nearly every other article on the subject of the Holocaust, only ever says 6 million Jews were killed. Not one mention in that entire article about all the others who perished. Do they not matter?
By only ever mentioning the Jewish loss of life while ignoring the 7 million others who were murdered along side them, articles such as these are, imo, almost as bad as the Holocaust deniers.
It (the Holocaust) killed 13 million, 6 million of which were Jews.

I never said he loved the gays. The other guy did.

I know.

I believe the death toll was 11 million, not 13 million. If someone has a source to support the 13 million statistic, I would be interested in seeing it.

Regardless, even one death would be one too many.

I believe the death toll was 11 million, not 13 million. If someone has a source to support the 13 million statistic, I would be interested in seeing it.

Regardless, even one death would be one too many.

As Trostia said earlier, this is one of those sad instances where saying "Give or take a million" still means youre really accurate.

Truth is, we dont have a solid number.

As Trostia said earlier, this is one of those sad instances where saying "Give or take a million" still means youre really accurate.

Truth is, we dont have a solid number.

Whenever such a large amount of people have been killed that there is dispute over the exact amount, it was clearly a disaster. Actual numbers aren't all too important, given that we have an accurate general number. While there is still disagreement, we need to remember that we are still talking about millions of deaths.

I'd suggest finding out what the occupied territories are before spouting more babble.

:rolleyes:

Right, so Israel didn't have the right to claim buffer territory after being ganged up on multiple times? If they didn't want their territory occupied, they should have accepted the 1947-48 resolution and gotten on with life, or at the very least NOT INVADED AND STARTED A FEW WARS. But no. Our God is better than their God. If they get a country, we don't want one.

Tough shit. I say again, they had their chance, they thumbed their collective noses at it. They acted like children, and now they get treated as though they had that level of understanding, which is the case, on average. Some really smart ones, some really dumb ones, and the ones with avarice for power in the middle, controlling the dumb ones so that the smart ones can't effect change and get on with life.

Whenever such a large amount of people have been killed that there is dispute over the exact amount, it was clearly a disaster. Actual numbers aren't all too important, given that we have an accurate general number. While there is still disagreement, we need to remember that we are still talking about millions of deaths.

Apparently, some people think that splitting millions of hairs is worth doing. All these quibbles over precisely how many were killed sound like such a weaseling attempt to downplay a horrific atrocity.

:rolleyes:

Right, so Israel didn't have the right to claim buffer territory after being ganged up on multiple times? If they didn't want their territory occupied, they should have accepted the 1947-48 resolution and gotten on with life, or at the very least NOT INVADED AND STARTED A FEW WARS. But no. Our God is better than their God. If they get a country, we don't want one.

Tough shit. I say again, they had their chance, they thumbed their collective noses at it.

Given that the median age of a Palestinian is 17.4 (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html) years don't you think it's slightly unfair to blame the current ones for what happened over fifty years ago? "Sins of the fathers" and all that jazz.

Given that the median age of a Palestinian is 17.4 (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html) years don't you think it's slightly unfair to blame the current ones for what happened over fifty years ago? "Sins of the fathers" and all that jazz.

That is actually one of the most thoughtful responses I've seen on this issue in forever.

edit: but wouldn't the Palestinians in power (in both Gaza and West Bank) still be much older, senior authorities? I hardly think the Palestinians in charge of domestic and international issues are teenagers, or even that young.

Given that the median age of a Palestinian is 17.4 (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html) years don't you think it's slightly unfair to blame the current ones for what happened over fifty years ago? "Sins of the fathers" and all that jazz.

Indeed. Otherwise there'd be no Germans, Japanese etc left at this stage.

Nod-sama, check your TGs, please.

Tis done, my Asturian lady.

Tis done, my Asturian lady.

Answered in kind, my Irish gentleman. And thanks.

Tis done, my Asturian lady.

Answered in kind, my Irish gentleman. And thanks.

Aww...

R

Read your history!!!!!!!!!

I read the Rise and I am not buying your claim.

For a history major you seem to have forgotten that simply mentioning a book title is not proof to your claim......

I read the Rise and I am not buying your claim.

Great book, isn't it? :)

Even though it's well over 1,000 pages, I breezed through it relatively quickly.

Great book, isn't it? :)

Even though it's well over 1,000 pages, I breezed through it relatively quickly.

Indeed. But I can't say I breezed through it.

Did you pick up his other book?

Indeed. But I can't say I breezed through it.

Did you pick up his other book?

Which one? He wrote many.

Which one? He wrote many.

Guess the name would help. ;)

Berlin Diary

I read the Rise and I am not buying your claim.

For a history major you seem to have forgotten that simply mentioning a book title is not proof to your claim......

Nonsense. Argumentum ad verecundiam is a perfectly acceptable scholarly practice to undue work....

Guess the name would help. ;)

Berlin Diary

Not yet. I want to read that one, as well as his book on the French Third Republic (can't recall the title at the moment).

Nonsense. Argumentum ad verecundiam is a perfectly acceptable scholarly practice to undue work....

Not when you are an unknown student.

Now if his name was William L. Shirer, then yes but then again we would be concerned about talking to a Zombie.

-snip-

Hitler also 'surrounded himself' with Jews, your argument is not convincing. Hitler was mostly unaware of the homosexuality in the SA, but he did find out whilst on the hunt for the SA leaders, and it added further justification for him to execute them.

Given that the median age of a Palestinian is 17.4 (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html) years don't you think it's slightly unfair to blame the current ones for what happened over fifty years ago? "Sins of the fathers" and all that jazz.

You're kidding right? In a culture that's taught the entire world how a grudge is held? The surrounding Arab nations invaded. Israel fought them off. They kept small strips of land as buffers. How unfair is it that just because Israel took the offer of statehood and the Palestinians rejected it, that all the surrounding Arab nations rose up to try and wipe Israel off the map? Were that you, I don't think you'd give two shits for the children of those delusional, triumphalist people who are now whining for a homeland. How can they demand "back" what they never really had? Let them become Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese.

"Never Again" should mean just that. Not "Never Again For Some, But Not Others".

Aye. Never again. Not just to the Jews. Not even to every group that was targeted. Never again. Never again for anyone, anywhere. Skin color, gender, religion, orientation, politics... not for any of these. Nor for the rest.

See the Holocaust doesn't horrify me as much as the Rwandan genocide because it was so clinical and industrialised. The Rwandan genocide terrifies me because it was so unrestrained - people just hacking others to death in the streets, nuns and priests murdering people. It was awful.

I go the other way on that. Both, of course, were horrible beyond comprehension and remain so to this day. The thing about the Rwandan genocide is that it's slightly easier for me to stomach because it was so unrestrained. It was pure chaos, it didn't have to make sense. Inexcusable, of course. But it was borne of pure and unbridled wrath. There was no plan, only anger.

The same cannot be said for the Holocaust. There was logic and reason put into it. As though someone calmly sat down, pointed at several groups, said "I don't want you to be alive anymore" and then went about looking for the best way to do it.

Even a vicious death by machete can be understood as savage passion or as temporary madness and a suspension of higher faculties. But the Holocaust? No. Higher faculties were not only present, they were required. That's what disturbs me. Rwanda was horrifying, or would have been had I been more than a wee lad at the time, but the Holocaust required its perpetrators to rein in their anger, and yet kill all the same. It defies understanding, and that's why it terrifies me.

I go the other way on that. Both, of course, were horrible beyond comprehension and remain so to this day. The thing about the Rwandan genocide is that it's slightly easier for me to stomach because it was so unrestrained. It was pure chaos, it didn't have to make sense. Inexcusable, of course. But it was borne of pure and unbridled wrath. There was no plan, only anger.

The same cannot be said for the Holocaust. There was logic and reason put into it. As though someone calmly sat down, pointed at several groups, said "I don't want you to be alive anymore" and then went about looking for the best way to do it.

Even a vicious death by machete can be understood as savage passion or as temporary madness and a suspension of higher faculties. But the Holocaust? No. Higher faculties were not only present, they were required. That's what disturbs me. Rwanda was horrifying, or would have been had I been more than a wee lad at the time, but the Holocaust required its perpetrators to rein in their anger, and yet kill all the same. It defies understanding, and that's why it terrifies me.


It's the possibility that this is maybe where our primal instincts lead us that scares me. The thought that we are so close to such madness and violence - all of us. I like to think that we have subdued that animalistic primitive violence, but events like Rwanda make me realise that this is not the case.

But I understand why the Holocaust is so terrifying and awful, and why many people feel it is the worst.

It's the possibility that this is maybe where our primal instincts lead us that scares me. The thought that we are so close to such madness and violence - all of us. I like to think that we have subdued that animalistic primitive violence, but events like Rwanda make me realise that this is not the case.

But I understand why the Holocaust is so terrifying and awful, and why many people feel it is the worst.
Personally, I don't experience the images of the meachanistic slaughter and shoveling of corpses into pits from the Holocaust as being less horrifically and inhumanly savage than the interpersonal destruction of Rwanda. Neither set of crazed murderers strikes me as fully human.

You're kidding right? In a culture that's taught the entire world how a grudge is held? .

...sez the man advocating punishing the current generation for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers......


They kept small strips of land as buffers. .

The West Bank isn't that small. Secondly, they aren't using them as mine fields and tank traps, but are building civillian housing in them.


Were that you, I don't think you'd give two shits for the children of those delusional, triumphalist people who are now whining for a homeland. How can they demand "back" what they never really had? Let them become Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese.

So we might say the same to Israel, if we were to sink to that level....even more so, in the case of the lunatic settlers.

You're kidding right? In a culture that's taught the entire world how a grudge is held? The surrounding Arab nations invaded. Israel fought them off. They kept small strips of land as buffers. How unfair is it that just because Israel took the offer of statehood and the Palestinians rejected it, that all the surrounding Arab nations rose up to try and wipe Israel off the map? Were that you, I don't think you'd give two shits for the children of those delusional, triumphalist people who are now whining for a homeland. How can they demand "back" what they never really had? Let them become Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese.

That's an.....interesting....take on the situation. As Nodina has mentioned, the strips of land aren't exactly small, nor are they buffers. You can see for yourself (http://geology.com/world/israel-map.gif), if you want. Even so, to wish misery and death on a people because of their culture, well fine sentiments if you want to become the Grand Wizard, but it's hardly productive to a nuanced understand of the situation. Talk of a homeland is a red herring, frankly. What the Palestinians want is an end Israeli settlement stealing their land now and resources and an end to the Israeli-made hardship that has made their lives at this present time a living hell. Ancient history and homeland can wait. The finest quote I've heard in years on the situation came from the Israeli ambassador to Ireland when he said "It would be a mistake to think of this conflict as between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between the extremists and moderates, from both communities".

Oh, and the Palestinians can't become Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese because Jordan, Syria and Lebanon won't touch them with a ten foot pole. They're fine when it comes to ranting how evil Israel is for mistreating Palestinians, because that gets the population all riled up at an external enemy which keeps the elites in power, but they'd never do anything to try and fix the situation.

Oh, and the Palestinians can't become Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese because Jordan, Syria and Lebanon won't touch them with a ten foot pole. They're fine when it comes to ranting how evil Israel is for mistreating Palestinians, because that gets the population all riled up at an external enemy which keeps the elites in power, but they'd never do anything to try and fix the situation.

Yeah, because they need an external enemy to draw attention from the many issues plaguing their countries, and it placates the extremists within their borders without them having to actually provide them with what they really want. In the case of Lebanon and Jordan at least. But they don't want the problems that displaced and very angry Palestinians would bring to their lands. So they won't lift a finger to actually help.

Personally, I don't experience the images of the meachanistic slaughter and shoveling of corpses into pits from the Holocaust as being less horrifically and inhumanly savage than the interpersonal destruction of Rwanda. Neither set of crazed murderers strikes me as fully human.

I think they are both equal in terms of inhuman savagery. Just that the Rwandan genocide scares me more. Probably because I am aware of those animalistic tendencies within myself.

Neither set of crazed murderers strikes me as fully human.

I think they are both equal in terms of inhuman savagery.
What upsets me most is that the people who took part in the Rwandan genocide and the Holocaust were very much human and, from all evidence, not 'crazed' at all.

The Holocaust was a terrible Tragedy.

Never had any family that was Physically affected by it though, so I cant compare to others.

I think they are both equal in terms of inhuman savagery. Just that the Rwandan genocide scares me more. Probably because I am aware of those animalistic tendencies within myself.
Good to know. *makes note while edging slowly away*


What upsets me most is that the people who took part in the Rwandan genocide and the Holocaust were very much human and, from all evidence, not 'crazed' at all.

I was using those words more descriptively than diagnostically.

The Holocaust was a terrible Tragedy.

Never had any family that was Physically affected by it though, so I cant compare to others.

So the Jews deserved it on grounds of Hubris? Oh well done. You've inadvertently referred to a dramatic convention through, in your emotional incontinence, capitalising "tragedy".

Why is "Physically" capitalised also?

T
Oh, and the Palestinians can't become Jordanian, ......

Well Arafat did try to overthrow old King Hussein.

Its Holocaust Rememberence Day. No agenda. No excluding certian groups.


Never Again.

Victims Killed
Jews 5.9 million
Soviet POWs 2–3 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll

This hierarchy shouldn't stop at the Jews, how about the Russian civilians or Chinese civilians that were killed during WWII?

This hierarchy shouldn't stop at the Jews, how about the Russian civilians or Chinese civilians that were killed during WWII?

Or the Japanese. Why not say, then, that the Holocaust of WWII was a human tragedy? We're getting friggin' touchy. Victims, as Brandon Lee said on The Crow, Victims are we all.

Stalin was extremely anti-semetic and certainly often singled out Jews 'because they were Jewish.'

Who wasn't anti-Jewish back in those days besides Jews?

So the Jews deserved it on grounds of Hubris? Oh well done. You've inadvertently referred to a dramatic convention through, in your emotional incontinence, capitalising "tragedy".

Why is "Physically" capitalised also?

Romeo, O Rome*Gets shot*

Romeo, O Rome*Gets shot*

How many times has this been?

How many times has this been?

Look for "gets shot" posted by me and count the posts, Ledg*Gets shot*

Look for "gets shot" posted by me and count the posts, Ledg*Gets shot*

*tracks down and shoots the shooter*

There, problem solved. :)

Who wasn't anti-Jewish back in those days besides Jews?
Ironically, German/Prussian and Austrian society before Hitler. :p:rolleyes::p

i think what we really need to be vigilent and concerned about is there is so much of the values and priorities of today's popular culture, expecially the pseudoconservative inclination, that are identical to what and how creates markets for all tyrants.
did then. did before then. have since too.

what we really need to remember is to not every again be so damd careless about what incentives our priorities are creating. that's the real difference between talking the talk and walking the REAL walk.

Röhm was killed by Hitler too, but not for being a homosexual. (Although he was found with two 12-14 old naked boys at a fag party the night Hitler had him done in.) But becuause the Wirmark high comand gave Hitler an altermatim and the Armys further cooparation was dependent upon certain terms including Rom's assasination. Why becuase he was homsexual? No but becuase he wouldn't discontinue the revolution, beating up communists,jews, and political emimys and contiuing the terror tactics which were unpopular with the right wing which Hitler was now trying to wow. At this point Capt. Gregorian and the socialist left wing of the party is gone. For hitler only need the socialists to get the Nazi party in office, that is now complete. At this point he is trying to consolidate the Army, bussiness (Especialy banking), and those that where promised a (by hitler) a restoration of the Holinsolen Monarcy (The Right). All political calculations of a mechiaveilian demagog and not homophbia!

I have given you an 1100 pg. book. by an American journalist living in the third rhich.
He covers the dubachary of the Nazi high comand.
And the credible account (about 90pg) of a concentration camp surviver.
This was not only to show a specific case, but to should a contrast. The contrast being that you didn't see jews, JW's, and gipcys going to the cc on their free time to do bussiness with the nazis. I have no need to give another source at this time for I have furnished enough to make my point. Nevertheless, it will not ever be enough to penitrate the minds of poor brainwashed idiologs like your self.

Its Holocaust Rememberence Day. No agenda. No excluding certian groups.


Never Again.

Victims Killed
Jews 5.9 million
Soviet POWs 2–3 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000



I don't see Serb victims here!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_persecution_of_Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp

And after that the west recognized first Croatia(whose nationalistic ideologies in the late 20th centuries looked a lot like the Ustasha ideology), and backed them up in the war.
Than recognized and helped Kosovo and Albanians who were also with Hitler and persecuted Serbs.
Said nothing regarding the operation Storm(USA sent generals to train Croats and prepare them for it)



Approximately 150,000 to 200,000[9] Serbs fled approaching Croat forces to Serb-held parts of Bosnia and Serbia. The European Union Special Envoy to the Former Yugoslavia Carl Bildt called it on Aug. 7, 1995, "the most efficient ethnic cleansing we've seen in the Balkans.

source: wikipedia
and don't get me started with what's been going on in Kosovo from 1999 'til today

You're all a bunch of hypocrites...

Man, the Balkans are soooo difficult. The Balkans is like Europe's retarded cousin who is always involved in family fueds. Europe would rather pretend the Balkans don't exist. It's like the Middle East of Europe. No matter what you do to 'help', it doesn't work and it make a differnet group pissed off.

Reminds me of the Balkan proverb:

"Have village, will burn."

The problem is very, very old..
But whenever nationalist come to power they cause wars because each ethnicity wants more territory.And when it comes to my people, Serbs, we have a problem in our way of thinking :D We always think we're much stronger then we really are, and act all tough, believing Russia will protect us.

And I have never heard that proverb...

Its Holocaust Rememberence Day. No agenda. No excluding certian groups.


Never Again.

Victims Killed
Jews 5.9 million
Soviet POWs 2–3 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll

It's very sad such things happened, but they happen all the time.

Did you celebrate the following stuff:

1994 – Ruanda – About 1 million people died in a genocide by extremist Hutu militias.

2004-2007 - Darfur - About 500,000 people died in a genocide.

And how many people died in WWII, Vietnam, Iraq, etc?

It's very sad such things happened, but they happen all the time.

Did you celebrate the following stuff:

1994 – Ruanda – About 1 million people died in a genocide by extremist Hutu militias.

2004-2007 - Darfur - About 500,000 people died in a genocide.

And how many people died in WWII, Vietnam, Iraq, etc?

True.. But those aren't Jews.

True.. But those aren't Jews.
Oh give me a fucking break. :rolleyes: You're one of those . . .

True.. But those aren't Jews.

In the Holocaust not only Jews lost their life.

My point is, that 'the world' seems to pay a lot of attention to that awful event, which happened a long time ago, but that the same 'world' is blind for similar events that happened yesterday.

In the Holocaust not only Jews lost their life.

True but usually what is taught is that Hitler killed the Jews without mention of anybody else.

My point is, that 'the world' seems to pay a lot of attention to that awful event, which happened a long time ago, but that the same 'world' is blind for similar events that happened yesterday.

^This.

In the Holocaust not only Jews lost their life.Right, and we learn about the others who were killed too. The reason why there is so much focus on Jews is because they were public enemy #1 in the Nazi regime. The whole idea of the holocaust was set up to deal with the Jewish question.

My point is, that 'the world' seems to pay a lot of attention to that awful event, which happened a long time ago, but that the same 'world' is blind for similar events that happened yesterday.
While it probably won't be nice to hear, it's natural that we 'care' more about things that happend in our own neighborhoods than in some far off corner of the world. We focus more on what happend in Germany because Germany was part of the industrialized 'Western', progressive world . . . and nobody thought something like that could happen here. It's natural that we would move to stop genocide in the Balkans because that's part of Europe and the problems (with refugees for example) spill over into Europe proper. I know this isn't a nice way of looking at it, but people don't care as much about things that don't affect them.

True but usually what is taught is that Hitler killed the Jews without mention of anybody else.
If that's true, then that says more about your shitty teachers who taught you about the holocaust than about "what is taught". I learned about the other people that died, and even at the concentration camp I've been to, Dachau, they broke down exactly who/what kind of people were sent to the camp.

In the Holocaust not only Jews lost their life.

My point is, that 'the world' seems to pay a lot of attention to that awful event, which happened a long time ago, but that the same 'world' is blind for similar events that happened yesterday.

My point was that Jews had enough money and influence in the U.S.(Or U.S. had interests in the middle east so they created an ally there and used Holocaust as a reason and told that story numerous times) to have their story told, and told so everyone knows how Jews have suffered.
People usually don't know about the other victims of genocides..

If that's true, then that says more about your shitty teachers who taught you about the holocaust than about "what is taught". I learned about the other people that died, and even at the concentration camp I've been to, Dachau, they broke down exactly who/what kind of people were sent to the camp.

I'm glad someone else agrees with me that they're a lot of shitty teachers (didn't help that I had to correct my teacher on a lot of things when he was teaching us about WWII), but despite people going out and finding it for themselves, they will simply hear about what is taught to them and what they hear about in general pop culture.

(didn't help that I had to correct my teacher on a lot of things when he was teaching us about WWII),
That's probably due to you spending too much time on NSG debating WWII and running back and forth between the forum and Wiki so much that you know the entire war by heart. ;)

I'm glad someone else agrees with me that they're a lot of shitty teachers but despite people going out and finding it for themselves, they will simply hear about what is taught to them and what they hear about in general pop culture.
Sure, but I still don't really know of anyone who knows about the holocaust who doesn't know there were other people involved in it as well.
My point was that Jews had enough money and influence in the U.S.(Or U.S. had interests in the middle east so they created an ally there and used Holocaust as a reason and told that story numerous times) to have their story told, and told so everyone knows how Jews have suffered.
People usually don't know about the other victims of genocides..
Well I'm afraid your reckless anti-semetic rant has just ran into my road block of facts:

Fact. Jews did not have that much influence in America prior to or during WWII like they do now a days.

Fact. America did not create Israel, and how the fuck could it? The British controlled the land and then the U.N. (not U.S.) partitioned the land into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews accepted that, the Arabs did not, then declared war on the Jewish state and the rest is history.

That's an.....interesting....take on the situation. As Nodina has mentioned, the strips of land aren't exactly small, nor are they buffers. You can see for yourself (http://geology.com/world/israel-map.gif), if you want. Even so, to wish misery and death on a people because of their culture, well fine sentiments if you want to become the Grand Wizard, but it's hardly productive to a nuanced understand of the situation.

Not what I did, but go on.

Talk of a homeland is a red herring, frankly. What the Palestinians want is an end Israeli settlement stealing their land now and resources and an end to the Israeli-made hardship that has made their lives at this present time a living hell. Ancient history and homeland can wait. The finest quote I've heard in years on the situation came from the Israeli ambassador to Ireland when he said "It would be a mistake to think of this conflict as between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between the extremists and moderates, from both communities".

Oh, and the Palestinians can't become Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese because Jordan, Syria and Lebanon won't touch them with a ten foot pole. They're fine when it comes to ranting how evil Israel is for mistreating Palestinians, because that gets the population all riled up at an external enemy which keeps the elites in power, but they'd never do anything to try and fix the situation.

Excellent post.

Even the Arabs surrounding them don't want them. Seems to me that the Palestinians need to drop the bombs and rocks. If their own Islamic brethren won't take them in, they're attacking the one country that will even talk with them. The Moderates need to get the Extremists in check and keep them there. This thing will never end so long as God is seen to be choosing sides.

That's probably due to you spending too much time on NSG debating WWII and running back and forth between the forum and Wiki so much that you know the entire war by heart. ;)

lol, actually NSG or wikipedia wasn't even around during this time, well Wiki might have been I'm not to sure. But the reason why I did know a lot about the war was because ever since I was 6 or 7 I have been reading many books and watched many reputable documentaries on the subject.

Sure, but I still don't really know of anyone who knows about the holocaust who doesn't know there were other people involved in it as well.

Unfortunately I know a lot of people who went through the South Australian education system.

I learned about the non-Jews killed in the Holocaust - from Jewish sources. By coincidence, my mother was the person who first told me about the Holocaust - she substituted at Sunday school that day. I knew from the beginning that non-Jews perished in the death camps.

lol, actually NSG or wikipedia wasn't even around during this time, well Wiki might have been I'm not to sure. But the reason why I did know a lot about the war was because ever since I was 6 or 7 I have been reading many books and watched many reputable documentaries on the subject.
Commendable, good sir. I've also been interested in WWII forevvver. By the way, how old are you?



Unfortunately I know a lot of people who went through the South Australian education system.
I had no idea it was that bad. Cool that you're an Aussie though. You just went up in my book. I like you guys. :p

I learned about the non-Jews killed in the Holocaust - from Jewish sources. I knew from the beginning that non-Jews perished in the death camps.
This.

My point was that Jews had enough money and influence in the U.S.(Or U.S. had interests in the middle east so they created an ally there and used Holocaust as a reason and told that story numerous times) to have their story told, and told so everyone knows how Jews have suffered.
People usually don't know about the other victims of genocides..

*sniff, sniff* I smell Mom's ol' fashioned bullshit brewin'!

I still cannot believe how recent this was, and how so many say it was not that many that died. Many of us have been to the concentration camps in Germany. It is truly saddening. We must always remember and learn.

*sniff, sniff* I smell Mom's ol' fashioned bullshit brewin'!

You got that right, brother. *good, strong whiff*

Bullshit with a side of horseshit.

Commendable, good sir. I've also been interested in WWII forevvver. By the way, how old are you?

Unfortunately I have reached the ripe old age of 23. :p

I had no idea it was that bad. Cool that you're an Aussie though. You just went up in my book. I like you guys. :p

:) Cool man cool, everyone loves Aussies. :D

*sniff, sniff* I smell Mom's ol' fashioned bullshit brewin'!

And she still hasn't sent me the recipe! :mad:

Its Holocaust Rememberence Day.

?
Here in Italy we have the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz as Remembrance Day.

Never Again.
Never forget lest history repeats.


Victims Killed
Jews 5.9 million
Soviet POWs 2–3 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000


Also, many italian POWs, after the armistice, were executed on the spot (see Cefalonia massacre) or sent to their deaths in concentration camps, because both Nazi Germany and the fascist puppet state (RSI) refused to grant them military POW status.

About the Eastern European front: see wiki: generalplan_ost , the extermination campaign against soviet civilians.


The Death Toll
The Russian Academy of Science in 1995 reported civilian victims in the USSR at German hands, including Jews, totaled 13.7 million dead, 20% of the 68 million persons in the occupied USSR. This included 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 2.2 million deaths of persons deported to Germany for forced labor; and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths in occupied territory. There were an additional estimated 3.0 million famine deaths in the USSR not under German occupation. These losses are for the entire territory of the USSR in 1946-1991 borders, including territories annexed in 1939-40 [6] The deaths of 8.2 million Soviet civilians, including Jews, were documented by the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission [7]

Who wasn't anti-Jewish back in those days besides Jews?

Lots of communist/socialist/catholic/liberal partisans fighting and getting killed while protecting Jews in Italy, France etc.
Also lots of catholic priests, friars and nuns who hid and protected the Jews, even when the catholic authorities discouraged that.

My point was that Jews had enough money and influence in the U.S.(Or U.S. had interests in the middle east so they created an ally there and used Holocaust as a reason and told that story numerous times) to have their story told, and told so everyone knows how Jews have suffered.


They barely let them in the universities till the 1950's, as far as I recall. I'd suggest getting your facts straightened out.


Even the Arabs surrounding them don't want them

And if 150 Million Mexicans came across the border because some other country decided to colonise down there, America would be there with open arms.

they're attacking the one country that will even talk with them.

I wonder why.......
Construction has begun on approximately 60 new homes in a Jewish settlement in Israeli-occupied East Jerusalem, the Israeli campaign group Peace Now says.

The work, in East Talpiot settlement, is aimed at creating a belt around East Jerusalem that would sever it from the rest of the West Bank, the group says.

Settlements on occupied land are illegal under international law.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8020825.stm

I would like to direct viewers of this thread to the following websites, in regards of the "Holocaust". http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/HOLOHOAX.htm

and

http://christianparty.net/holocaust.htm

I will not be held responsible for any eruptions of the brain.

The truth can be a bit hard for some to swallow. You've been warned.

I would(....)been warned.

Shite is hard to swallow too, funny enough.

I would like to direct viewers of this thread to the following websites, in regards of the "Holocaust".....You've been warned.

That these sites are nothing but baseless conjecture designed to propagate anti-semitism? Yes, I can clearly see that, and you know what? If you were confident in your views, you would post your views and use the sites you've posted to back it up. But it seems you're not and you'd rather just post this garbage in an attempt to troll.