NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.aol.com/article/great-wall-of-china/434884?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fgreat-wall-of-china%2F434884

BEIJING (April 20) -The Great Wall of China is even greater than once thought.
A two-year government mapping study has uncovered new sections of the ancient Chinese monument that total about 180 miles, according to a report posted on the State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping Web site.
Using mapping technologies such as infrared range finders and GPS devices, experts discovered portions of the wall — concealed by hills, trenches and rivers — that stretch from Hu Mountain in northern Liaoning province to Jiayu Pass in western Gansu province, the official China Daily reported Monday.
The newly mapped parts of the wall were built during the Ming Dynasy (1368-1644) to protect against northern invaders and were submerged over time by sandstorms that moved across the arid region, the study said.
The additional parts mean the Great Wall — which Chinese emperors began constructing 2,000 years ago to keep out Mongols and invaders — spans about 3,900 miles through the northern part of the country.
The joint project, conducted by the State Administration of Cultural Heritage and State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping, will continue for another year in order to map sections of the wall built during the Qin (221 B.C.-206 B.C.) and Han (206 B.C.-9 A.D.) Dynasties, the report said.
Recent studies by Chinese archaeologists have shown that sections of the wall in Gansu are being reduced to "mounds of dirt" by sandstorms and may disappear entirely in 20 years. They blamed destructive farming methods in the 1950s that desertified large areas of northern China. In addition, portions of the wall in Gansu were made of packed earth, which proved less resilient that brick and stone used in much of the wall's construction.
China in recent years has begun restoring parts of the wall as well as trying to rein in commercial development on and around it.

The marvels of the ancient world. What else can be unearthed from under those hills. China's Great Wall is indeed great! Comments.

But it's still not the only thing you can see from space.

221 B.C. Wholy crap.

But it's still not the only thing you can see from space.

*Dammit, Comrades, we'll need to build another 50 miles at least, THEN it will be seen from space*

http://www.cksinfo.com/clipart/people/famouspeople/soldiers/Genghis-Khan.png

/still not impressed

http://www.cksinfo.com/clipart/people/famouspeople/soldiers/Genghis-Khan.png

/still not impressed

Teh lulz!:D

*Dammit, Comrades, we'll need to build another 50 miles at least, THEN it will be seen from space*

Well, it can be seen from space, but it's not the only thing.

If only the Romans had been half as good in constructing fortifications, they might have been able to stop the Gothic hordes from invading Italy.

If only the Romans had been half as good in constructing fortifications, they might have been able to stop the Gothic hordes from invading Italy.

They tried that with Hadrian's Wall in England, and look where it got them. The Saxons kick their asses (although according to history, the Romans left before the Saxon invasion and all).

If only the Romans had been half as good in constructing fortifications, they might have been able to stop the Gothic hordes from invading Italy.

Wouldn't have worked. The Great Wall was a white elephant. China simply didn't have the manpower to man the wall to any great extent.

Addendum. They certainly had the manpower to defend big portions of it, but not all of it.

Wouldn't have worked. The Great Wall was a white elephant. China simply didn't have the manpower to man the wall to any great extent.

Addendum. They certainly had the manpower to defend big portions of it, but not all of it.

That... and it not being a single wall, but rather a large collection of structures not physically linked. Kinda stupid actually - allowing any enemy to waltz through between sections.

Wouldn't have worked. The Great Wall was a white elephant. China simply didn't have the manpower to man the wall to any great extent.

Addendum. They certainly had the manpower to defend big portions of it, but not all of it.

Perhaps it could be defined as having too great an ambition.

Wouldn't have worked. The Great Wall was a white elephant. China simply didn't have the manpower to man the wall to any great extent.

A Roman Great Wall erected in Italy would actually have been much more compact, which would make it much easier to properly man said fortification. This is all very hypothetical, of course.

That... and it not being a single wall, but rather a large collection of structures not physically linked. Kinda stupid actually - allowing any enemy to waltz through between sections.

This

Also I've heard that the wall can't really be seen from space, as its about the same color as the land around it. hm...

WIKI:
Visibility from low earth orbit

A more controversial question is whether the Wall is visible from low earth orbit, i.e an altitude of as little as 100 miles (160 km). NASA claims that it is barely visible, and only under nearly perfect conditions; it is no more conspicuous than many other man-made objects.[17] Other authors have argued that due to limitations of the optics of the eye and the spacing of photoreceptors on the retina, it is impossible to see the wall with the naked eye, even from low orbit, and would require visual acuity of 20/3 (7.7 times better than normal).[16]

Anecdotal reports

Astronaut William Pogue thought he had seen it from Skylab but discovered he was actually looking at the Grand Canal of China near Beijing. He spotted the Great Wall with binoculars, but said that "it wasn't visible to the unaided eye." U.S. Senator Jake Garn claimed to be able to see the Great Wall with the naked eye from a space shuttle orbit in the early 1980s, but his claim has been disputed by several U.S. astronauts. Veteran U.S. astronaut Gene Cernan has stated: "At Earth orbit of 100 miles (160 km) to 200 miles (320 km) high, the Great Wall of China is, indeed, visible to the naked eye." Ed Lu, Expedition 7 Science Officer aboard the International Space Station, adds that, "it's less visible than a lot of other objects. And you have to know where to look."

In October 2003, Chinese astronaut Yang Liwei stated that he had not been able to see the Great Wall of China. In response, the European Space Agency (ESA) issued a press release reporting that from an orbit between 160 and 320 km, the Great Wall is visible to the naked eye. In an attempt to further clarify things, the ESA published a picture of a part of the “Great Wall” photographed from Space. However, in a press release a week later (no longer available in the ESA’s website), they acknowledged that the "Great Wall" in the picture was actually a river.
Topographic maps put together showing the location of the eastern parts of the wall between the Yellow River and the Bohai Sea.

Neil Armstrong stated about the view from Apollo 11: "I do not believe that, at least with my eyes, there would be any man-made object that I could see. I have not yet found somebody who has told me they've seen the Wall of China from Earth orbit. ...I've asked various people, particularly Shuttle guys, that have been many orbits around China in the daytime, and the ones I've talked to didn't see it.[18]

Leroy Chiao, a Chinese-American astronaut, took a photograph from the International Space Station that shows the wall. It was so indistinct that the photographer was not certain he had actually captured it. Based on the photograph, the China Daily later reported that the Great Wall can be seen from space with the naked eye, under favorable viewing conditions, if one knows exactly where to look.[19]

They tried that with Hadrian's Wall in England, and look where it got them. The Saxons kick their asses (although according to history, the Romans left before the Saxon invasion and all).

I thought Hadrian's wall was built to re-route trade through tax-collecting checkpoints, rather than as a military defense (though it's been a while since I've read up on it).

221 B.C. Wholy crap.

I don't think that's what you meant to say...

I thought Hadrian's wall was built to re-route trade through tax-collecting checkpoints, rather than as a military defense (though it's been a while since I've read up on it).

That was one of it's purposes, yes. But it also served for defense.

All were built to prevent raids on Roman Britain by the Pictish tribes (ancient inhabitants of Scotland) to the north, to improve economic stability and provide peaceful conditions in Britain, and to mark physically the frontier of the Empire. Hadrian's Wall is the best known of the three because its physical presence remains most evident today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian%27s_Wall

So Hadrian's wall was actually a rather physical tariff barrier?

So Hadrian's wall was actually a rather physical tariff barrier?

Yup. Ingenious, eh?

Quite. Still the Roman Empire didn't last as long as the Chinese Empire, even though Roman Catholicism still is very much alive to this very day.

But it's still not the only thing you can see from space.

And still didn't keep the Mongols out.

A Roman Great Wall erected in Italy would actually have been much more compact, which would make it much easier to properly man said fortification. This is all very hypothetical, of course.

Still unfeasible, because if the Roman Empire had limited itself to its cisalpine part, it would have crippled its own economy.

Though I agree that if the Romans had chosen to block the alpine passes with fortifications, no one would have been able to break through short of using modern artillery.

That was one of it's purposes, yes. But it also served for defense.

Aha, cool. I think the fact that it's so short in some places made me forget over the years that it was used for purposes other than commerce. Neat. :)

Aha, cool. I think the fact that it's so short in some places made me forget over the years that it was used for purposes other than commerce. Neat. :)

Yes, I know what you mean.

If only the Romans had been half as good in constructing fortifications, they might have been able to stop the Gothic hordes from invading Italy.

I wouldn't exactly call the great wall effective. All 3 times foreigners took over China, they were from the other side of the wall. I think the wall was just sort of something to have people to do when there was an over supply of labor and they needed to put people to work.

Projects of that size often tend to gain a momentum of their own. I wouldn't be surprised if building the Great Wall became something of a rather expensive hobby for some of China's emperors.

Quite. Still the Roman Empire didn't last as long as the Chinese Empire, even though Roman Catholicism still is very much alive to this very day.

Actually, that isn't really true. Continuous government progressing from the Kingdom, to the Republic, to the Empire, to the Byzantine Empire (which certainly considered itself the continuation of Rome, and so called itself), lasted for close to 1900 years. No united Chinese Empire lasted that long - they were interspersed with periods of fragmentation and disunity.

And still didn't keep the Mongols out.

According to wiki, it was because somebody opened the door for them.

We in the West are good at freedom. The Chinese are good at building walls. Well done China *pats on head in patronising manner*

This

Also I've heard that the wall can't really be seen from space, as its about the same color as the land around it. hm...

WIKI:
Visibility from low earth orbit

A more controversial question is whether the Wall is visible from low earth orbit, i.e an altitude of as little as 100 miles (160 km). NASA claims that it is barely visible, and only under nearly perfect conditions; it is no more conspicuous than many other man-made objects.[17] Other authors have argued that due to limitations of the optics of the eye and the spacing of photoreceptors on the retina, it is impossible to see the wall with the naked eye, even from low orbit, and would require visual acuity of 20/3 (7.7 times better than normal).[16]

Anecdotal reports

Astronaut William Pogue thought he had seen it from Skylab but discovered he was actually looking at the Grand Canal of China near Beijing. He spotted the Great Wall with binoculars, but said that "it wasn't visible to the unaided eye." U.S. Senator Jake Garn claimed to be able to see the Great Wall with the naked eye from a space shuttle orbit in the early 1980s, but his claim has been disputed by several U.S. astronauts. Veteran U.S. astronaut Gene Cernan has stated: "At Earth orbit of 100 miles (160 km) to 200 miles (320 km) high, the Great Wall of China is, indeed, visible to the naked eye." Ed Lu, Expedition 7 Science Officer aboard the International Space Station, adds that, "it's less visible than a lot of other objects. And you have to know where to look."

In October 2003, Chinese astronaut Yang Liwei stated that he had not been able to see the Great Wall of China. In response, the European Space Agency (ESA) issued a press release reporting that from an orbit between 160 and 320 km, the Great Wall is visible to the naked eye. In an attempt to further clarify things, the ESA published a picture of a part of the “Great Wall” photographed from Space. However, in a press release a week later (no longer available in the ESA’s website), they acknowledged that the "Great Wall" in the picture was actually a river.
Topographic maps put together showing the location of the eastern parts of the wall between the Yellow River and the Bohai Sea.

Neil Armstrong stated about the view from Apollo 11: "I do not believe that, at least with my eyes, there would be any man-made object that I could see. I have not yet found somebody who has told me they've seen the Wall of China from Earth orbit. ...I've asked various people, particularly Shuttle guys, that have been many orbits around China in the daytime, and the ones I've talked to didn't see it.[18]

Leroy Chiao, a Chinese-American astronaut, took a photograph from the International Space Station that shows the wall. It was so indistinct that the photographer was not certain he had actually captured it. Based on the photograph, the China Daily later reported that the Great Wall can be seen from space with the naked eye, under favorable viewing conditions, if one knows exactly where to look.[19]

This is the simplified way someone once put it as to why it CANNOT be seen from space:

The Great Wall of China is smaller in width then a two-lane freeway, but you cannot even see a 4-lane freeway from space.

A Roman Great Wall erected in Italy would actually have been much more compact, which would make it much easier to properly man said fortification. This is all very hypothetical, of course.

you do realize that walls have this odd habit of falling down especially with Gypsies paving the driveway outside :p

That was one of it's purposes, yes. But it also served for defense.

don't forget providing vital building material for Northerners

Though I agree that if the Romans had chosen to block the alpine passes with fortifications, no one would have been able to break through short of using modern artillery.

or just getting on some sail boats ;)

don't forget providing vital building material for Northerners

And serve as tomb for dead workers.:wink:

And serve as tomb for dead workers.:wink:

I had no idea the Romans built a wall on top of Saudi oil fields :tongue:

I had no idea the Romans built a wall on top of Saudi oil fields :tongue:

I was talking about the Great Wall.:tongue:

http://news.aol.com/article/great-wall-of-china/434884?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fgreat-wall-of-china%2F434884



The marvels of the ancient world. What else can be unearthed from under those hills. China's Great Wall is indeed great! Comments.

... it's GROWING!!! :eek: ;)

... it's GROWING!!! :eek: ;)

Hahahahahahahaha!!!:D

This is the simplified way someone once put it as to why it CANNOT be seen from space:

The Great Wall of China is smaller in width then a two-lane freeway, but you cannot even see a 4-lane freeway from space.

Basically. But I wanted to represent the information on it's own with as little bias as possible, I don't think its possible to see it form space due to the small width of it. Considering almost everyone who has "seen" it later retracted their statement...

Quite. Still the Roman Empire didn't last as long as the Chinese Empire, even though Roman Catholicism still is very much alive to this very day.

I wouldn't call their imperial history as one unified rule.
Qin was a legalist(meaning what the emperor says is law) dynasty. Which lasted all of 15 years.
Then you have the Han dynasty which lasted about 400 years. That was based on Confucianism.
Then the empire fell apart into 3 kingdoms.
Then the Jin dynasty comes to power and lasted 150 years
Then the country falls apart into 16 kingdoms.
becomes 2 kingdoms north and south.
then you have the Sui dynasty that's last for 40 years
Followed by the tang dynasty that lasted for 300 years. Which is interesting because they didn't apply Confucianism, instead they applied Buddhism.
Then you have the period of 5 dynasties and 10 kingdoms.
then the song dynasty holds power for 200 years.
then the Jurchen take over for 100 years.
Then the Mongol take over for 100 years.
then the Ming takes power for 300 years.
Then the Manchus invade and take over for 300 years.

The Chinese empire spent as much time divided fighting among themselves as being an empire. And almost as much time being Ran by non Chinese. the governments of the various imperial groups were also based on different philosophies and rules of governance. The claim that China had one empire lasting thousands of years is liek the claim of Russia being the successor state of Rome.

Seems like I should have studied the given object a bit more. I see that the Chinese civilization is significantly more dynamic as I was assuming. But if I'm reading Greed And Death's list correctly, China has been more or less a united empire for over 900 years. That's a pretty good score, actually.

http://news.aol.com/article/great-wall-of-china/434884?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fgreat-wall-of-china%2F434884



The marvels of the ancient world. What else can be unearthed from under those hills. China's Great Wall is indeed great! Comments.

Pre-turn of the era China can build a wall around the whole of China of fucking stones. America can't put up a few thousand miles of chain-link fence.

I don't think that's what you meant to say...

What do you mean?

Seems like I should have studied the given object a bit more. I see that the Chinese civilization is significantly more dynamic as I was assuming. But if I'm reading Greed And Death's list correctly, China has been more or less a united empire for over 900 years. That's a pretty good score, actually.

There is a problem when you count the rule by foreigners. Which was 3 of the last 4 dynasties.
The really fun thing is how much their language shifts. Poetry from more then 200 years ago rarely rhymes. Because their written language doesn't preserve sound very well.

But it's still not the only thing you can see from space.

I look at pictures of China from space and I still cannot see it.

It's not so great. If they really wanted to make it great, they'd put in a taco stand every 20 miles. *nod*

Why not ask for wireless internet while you're at it?

http://news.aol.com/article/great-wall-of-china/434884?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fgreat-wall-of-china%2F434884



The marvels of the ancient world. What else can be unearthed from under those hills. China's Great Wall is indeed great! Comments.

It is great, and interesting to read... but even more interesting to know that the Mongols just rode around it to invade China.

It is great, and interesting to read... but even more interesting to know that the Mongols just rode around it to invade China.

That's why Genghis Khan wasn't impressed.:D

It's not so great. If they really wanted to make it great, they'd put in a taco stand every 20 miles. *nod*

I think they did something similar, LG. They just sell gyoza instead of tacos. *nod*:D

Genghis Khan simply went everywhere he wished to go. Those foolish enough to oppose him soon learned the errors of their ways, usually quickly followed by a grisly death.

Seems like I should have studied the given object a bit more. I see that the Chinese civilization is significantly more dynamic as I was assuming. But if I'm reading Greed And Death's list correctly, China has been more or less a united empire for over 900 years. That's a pretty good score, actually.
I wouldn't call it united. The wars that were fought during those 900 years to retain or gain power were particularly brutal. The Mongol conquest in the 13th Century is estimated to have killed 60 million - making it the 2nd deadliest war ever, after WWII (deadliest when compared as a proportion of the World population). The 17th Century Manchu conquest killed an estimated 25 million. The TaiPeng civil war in mid-19th Century killed at least 20 million, with some estimates of 200 million(!). There were 5 other civil wars during the 19th Century, each of which dispatched several million.

back to the Great Wall: Jackie Chan should be told about the state of it. I'm sure he'd love to help rebuild it. Keep him, and a few thousand other Chinese, in check and under control. Then they can stand about inside happy in their lack of freedoms.

The media were quick to quote Jackie Chan's statement out of context, happy to do some damage in the process. But you probably already knew that, Zombie PotatoHeads.

The media were quick to quote Jackie Chan's statement out of context, happy to do some damage in the process. But you probably already knew that, Zombie PotatoHeads.
It wasn't taken out of context, but you probably already knew that, Hurdegaryp.
He's just claiming it is in a desperate attempt to weedle his way out of the pit he's dug himself.
This is what he said:

"Sure, we've got 5,000 years of history, but our new country has just been around for 60 years and the reforms for 30 years. It's hard to compare us with other countries.
But I feel that in the 10 years after Hong Kong's return to Chinese rule, I'm not sure if it's good to have freedom or not. I'm really confused now. If you're too free, you're like the way Hong Kong is now. It's very chaotic. Taiwan is also chaotic.
I'm gradually beginning to feel that we Chinese need to be controlled. If we're not being controlled, we'll just do what we want."

How is that anything other than what it says?

He says shit like that all the time while in China. He knows his Hollywood career is all but over but China still likes his movies though. His retirement fund is dependent on keeping the Chinese authorities and investors happy - and they love hearing him say things like this. It makes getting funding and having his films okayed by PRC film censors that much easier (though it didn't work for his latest movie, despite being a ridiculously over-the-top, anti-Japanese, pro-China, propaganda piece. But maybe his comments were an attempt to woo the Chinese authorities into okaying it).

It is great, and interesting to read... but even more interesting to know that the Mongols just rode around it to invade China.

You'd think France would have learned a thing or two from that episode when they built the Maginot Line...

http://news.aol.com/article/great-wall-of-china/434884?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fgreat-wall-of-china%2F434884



The marvels of the ancient world. What else can be unearthed from under those hills. China's Great Wall is indeed great! Comments.

Yeah, I went to Disney World and saw the video of the Great Wall of China it looks awesome. I happen to very pro Chinese people not its government of course. I have a family member in the family of direct Spaniard Chinese descent. She looks Spaniard. She is a beautiful awesome lady with certain Chinese facial features.

We call her la China. La China or El Chino used to be a racial slur long ago. Now a days it is used with respect. The Chinese people have been highly respected in Cuba as great business people before the current government. Usually of private restaurants and other businesses. About 1 % of all Cubans are of Chinese or mixed Chinese descent.

No Cuban American neighborhood is complete without its Cuban Chinese restaurants.