NationStates Jolt Archive

10 years later, the real story behind Columbine

By Greg Toppo, USA TODAY
They weren't goths or loners.

The two teenagers who killed 13 people and themselves at suburban Denver's Columbine High School 10 years ago next week weren't in the "Trenchcoat Mafia," disaffected videogamers who wore cowboy dusters. The killings ignited a national debate over bullying, but the record now shows Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold hadn't been bullied — in fact, they had bragged in diaries about picking on freshmen and "fags."

Their rampage put schools on alert for "enemies lists" made by troubled students, but the enemies on their list had graduated from Columbine a year earlier. Contrary to early reports, Harris and Klebold weren't on antidepressant medication and didn't target jocks, blacks or Christians, police now say, citing the killers' journals and witness accounts. That story about a student being shot in the head after she said she believed in God? Never happened, the FBI says now.

A decade after Harris and Klebold made Columbine a synonym for rage, new information — including several books that analyze the tragedy through diaries, e-mails, appointment books, videotape, police affidavits and interviews with witnesses, friends and survivors — indicate that much of what the public has been told about the shootings is wrong.

In fact, the pair's suicidal attack was planned as a grand — if badly implemented — terrorist bombing that quickly devolved into a 49-minute shooting rampage when the bombs Harris built fizzled.

"He was so bad at wiring those bombs, apparently they weren't even close to working," says Dave Cullen, author of Columbine, a new account of the attack.

So whom did they hope to kill?

Everyone — including friends.

What's left, after peeling away a decade of myths, is perhaps more comforting than the "good kids harassed into retaliation" narrative — or perhaps not.

It's a portrait of Harris and Klebold as a sort of In Cold Blood criminal duo — a deeply disturbed, suicidal pair who over more than a year psyched each other up for an Oklahoma City-style terrorist bombing, an apolitical, over-the-top revenge fantasy against years of snubs, slights and cruelties, real and imagined.

Along the way, they saved money from after-school jobs, took Advanced Placement classes, assembled a small arsenal and fooled everyone — friends, parents, teachers, psychologists, cops and judges.

"These are not ordinary kids who were bullied into retaliation," psychologist Peter Langman writes in his new book, Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters. "These are not ordinary kids who played too many video games. These are not ordinary kids who just wanted to be famous. These are simply not ordinary kids. These are kids with serious psychological problems."

Deceiving the adults

Harris, who conceived the attacks, was more than just troubled. He was, psychologists now say, a cold-blooded, predatory psychopath — a smart, charming liar with "a preposterously grand superiority complex, a revulsion for authority and an excruciating need for control," Cullen writes.

Harris, a senior, read voraciously and got good grades when he tried, pleasing his teachers with dazzling prose — then writing in his journal about killing thousands.

"I referred to him — and I'm dating myself — as the Eddie Haskel of Columbine High School," says Principal Frank DeAngelis, referring to the deceptively polite teen on the 1950s and '60s sitcom Leave it to Beaver. "He was the type of kid who, when he was in front of adults, he'd tell you what you wanted to hear."

When he wasn't, he mixed napalm in the kitchen .

According to Cullen, one of Harris' last journal entries read: "I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't … say, 'Well that's your fault,' because it isn't, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. No no no don't let the weird-looking Eric KID come along."

As he walked into the school the morning of April 20, Harris' T-shirt read: Natural Selection.

Klebold, on the other hand, was anxious and lovelorn, summing up his life at one point in his journal as "the most miserable existence in the history of time," Langman notes.

Harris drew swastikas in his journal; Klebold drew hearts.

As laid out in their writings, the contrast between the two was stark.

Harris seemed to feel superior to everyone — he once wrote, "I feel like God and I wish I was, having everyone being OFFICIALLY lower than me" — while Klebold was suicidally depressed and getting angrier all the time. "Me is a god, a god of sadness," he wrote in September 1997, around his 16th birthday.

Klebold also was paranoid. "I have always been hated, by everyone and everything," he wrote.

On the day of the attacks, his T-shirt read: Wrath.

Shooter profiles emerge

Columbine wasn't the first K-12 school shooting. But at the time it was by far the worst, and the first to play out largely on live television.

The U.S. Secret Service and U.S. Education Department soon began studying school shooters. In 2002, researchers presented their first findings: School shooters, they said, followed no set profile, but most were depressed and felt persecuted.

Princeton sociologist Katherine Newman, co-author of the 2004 book Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings, says young people such as Harris and Klebold are not loners — they're just not accepted by the kids who count. "Getting attention by becoming notorious is better than being a failure."

The Secret Service found that school shooters usually tell other kids about their plans.

"Other students often even egg them on," says Newman, who led a congressionally mandated study on school shootings. "Then they end up with this escalating commitment. It's not a sudden snapping."

Langman, whose book profiles 10 shooters, including Harris and Klebold, found that nine suffered from depression and suicidal thoughts, a "potentially dangerous" combination, he says. "It is hard to prevent murder when killers do not care if they live or die. It is like trying to stop a suicide bomber."

At the time, Columbine became a kind of giant national Rorschach test. Observers saw its genesis in just about everything: lax parenting, lax gun laws, progressive schooling, repressive school culture, violent video games, antidepressant drugs and rock 'n' roll, for starters.

Many of the Columbine myths emerged before the shooting stopped, as rumors, misunderstandings and wishful thinking swirled in an echo chamber among witnesses, survivors, officials and the news media.

Police contributed to the mess by talking to reporters before they knew facts — a hastily called news conference by the Jefferson County sheriff that afternoon produced the first headline: "Twenty-five dead in Colorado."

A few inaccuracies took hours to clear up, but others took weeks or months — sometimes years — as authorities reluctantly set the record straight.

Former Rocky Mountain News reporter Jeff Kass, author of a new book, Columbine: A True Crime Story, says police played a game of "Open Records charades."

In one case, county officials took five years just to acknowledge that they had met in secret after the attacks to discuss a 1998 affidavit for a search warrant on Harris' home — it was the result of a complaint against him by the mother of a former friend. Harris had threatened her son on his website and bragged that he had been building bombs.

Police already had found a small bomb matching Harris' description near his home — but investigators never presented the affidavit to a judge.

They also apparently didn't know that Harris and Klebold were on probation after having been arrested in January 1998 for breaking into a van and stealing electronics.

The search finally took place, but only after the shootings.

Meticulous planning

What's now beyond dispute — largely from the killers' journals, which have been released over the past few years, is this: Harris and Klebold killed 13 and wounded 24, but they had hoped to kill thousands.

The pair planned the attacks for more than a year, building 100 bombs and persuading friends to buy them guns. Just after 11 a.m. on April 20, they lugged a pair of duffel bags containing propane-tank bombs into Columbine's crowded cafeteria and another into the kitchen, then stepped outside and waited.

Had the bombs exploded, they'd have killed virtually everyone eating lunch and brought the school's second-story library down atop the cafeteria, police say. Armed with a pistol, a rifle and two sawed-off shotguns, the pair planned to pick off survivors fleeing the carnage.

As a last terrorist act, a pair of gasoline bombs planted in Harris' Honda and Klebold's BMW had been rigged apparently to kill police, rescue teams, journalists and parents who rushed to the school — long after the pair expected they would be dead.

The pair had parked the cars about 100 yards apart in the student lot. The bombs didn't go off.

Looking for answers at home

Since 1999, many people have looked to the boys' parents for answers, but a transcript of their 2003 court-ordered deposition to the victims' parents remains sealed until 2027.

The Klebolds spoke to New York Times columnist David Brooks in 2004 and impressed Brooks as "a well-educated, reflective, highly intelligent couple" who spent plenty of time with their son. They said they had no clues about Dylan's mental state and regretted not seeing that he was suicidal.

Could the parents have prevented the massacre? The FBI special agent in charge of the investigation has gone on record as having "the utmost sympathy" for the Harris and Klebold families.

"They have been vilified without information," retired supervisory special agent Dwayne Fuselier tells Cullen.

Cullen, who has spent most of the past decade poring over the record, comes away with a bit of sympathy.

For one thing, he notes, Harris' parents "knew they had a problem — they thought they were dealing with it. What kind of parent is going to think, 'Well, maybe Eric's a mass murderer.' You just don't go there."

He got a good look at the boys' writings only in the past couple of years. Among the revelations: Eric Harris was financing what could well have been the biggest domestic terrorist attack on U.S. soil on wages from a part-time job at a pizza parlor.

"One of the scary things is that money was one of the limiting factors here," Cullen says.

Had Harris, then 18, put off the attacks for a few years and landed a well-paying job, he says, "he could be much more like Tim McVeigh," mixing fertilizer bombs like those used in Oklahoma City in 1995. As it was, he says, the fact that Harris carried out the attack when he did probably saved hundreds of lives.

"His limited salary probably limited the number of people who died."

Link (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm?se=yahoorefer)

I posted this because today marks the 10 year anniversary to one of the most horrific school shooting to ever happen in America, and 10 years later, we now have a clearer picture of what happened, and why it happened.

Thoughts?

Did we learn anything? Not much. Very sad day.

Did we learn anything? Not much. Very sad day.

We learned that tragedies like this can be exploited for our own political and personal agenda?

We sure did learn that.

*In before someone mention tighter gun control.*

On one hand, the media coverage helped raise awareness of bullying.

On the other hand, it damaged the reputation of video-gamers, and other nerd types.

So...

What exactly in this article wasn't known about, oh, I dunno...9 years and 11 months ago?

I don't know which is worse; saying that they were pushed to the edge by bullying, video games, etc, and that not being true, or just saying that "Eh, they were just completely psychopathic mass murderers." ten years late.

What exactly in this article wasn't known about, oh, I dunno...9 years and 11 months ago?

Nothing.

I think the point is what has changed? What did we learn? Other than some days it pays not to go to school?

Nothing.

Then where'd all the whining about gun control and violence in video games come from over this?

What exactly in this article wasn't known about, oh, I dunno...9 years and 11 months ago?

I don't know which is worse; saying that they were pushed to the edge by bullying, video games, etc, and that not being true, or just saying that "Eh, they were just completely psychopathic mass murderers." ten years late.

Eh, in the wake of events like this, people usually become stupider than they normally are, they begin to panic, that panic cause a mass hysteria, and they want to blame anything and everything tanigable. They need to find a way to prevent something like this from happening, they need to have a reason behind such an event.

So they blame guns, they blame gangs, they blame video games, they blame bullying. However, the more time that passes, the more we realize that some things may have a reason, but they're not the reason that we want. We also realize that we may not be able to prevent something like this from happening again, and that there was nothing we could do to prevent Columbine itself. We realize that Columbine was the result of two psychopathic teenagers, not from games, bullies, or guns.

Then the next tragic events happen and we rinse and repeat, never learning the lesson that we've learned from the last tragic event.

Then where'd all the whining about gun control and violence in video games come from over this?

Opportunism, of course.

This is too little too late.

I think one could say a wholesale lack of parental responsibility. I don't know about the rest of you but if I was making bombs in my garage I think my parents would have known about it.

I read like half...er I think the moral is we need more bullies in schools to keep these types down

Harris, who conceived the attacks, was more than just troubled. He was, psychologists now say, a cold-blooded, predatory psychopath — a smart, charming liar with "a preposterously grand superiority complex, a revulsion for authority and an excruciating need for control," Cullen writes.

goddamn trolls ruining it for everyone

On the other hand, it damaged the reputation of video-gamers, and other nerd types.

since when did they have a rep?

I think one could say a wholesale lack of parental responsibility. I don't know about the rest of you but if I was making bombs in my garage I think my parents would have known about it.

True, but remember, just because your a psychopath doesn't mean you don't know how to manipulate people or aren't as smart and cunning as a James Bond villain.

I am still amazed that one of the first responses of the school district to the Columbine tragedy was to ban students from wearing black trenchcoats. :rolleyes:

I am still amazed that one of the first responses of the school district to the Columbine tragedy was to ban students from wearing black trenchcoats. :rolleyes:

Which is why I brought a gray trenchcoat. *nod*

True, but remember, just because your a psychopath doesn't mean you don't know how to manipulate people or aren't as smart and cunning as a James Bond villain.

I'd like to remind you that the bombs didn't work which as any 3 fingered eXtremist will tell you is due to him not testing the detonator before hand

I am still amazed that one of the first responses of the school district to the Columbine tragedy was to ban students from wearing black trenchcoats. :rolleyes:

I think this was a perfect policy as the 80's was long over

I am still amazed that one of the first responses of the school district to the Columbine tragedy was to ban students from wearing black trenchcoats. :rolleyes:

A number of students in my high school were harassed by school authorities over wearing solid black because of Columbine. It finally ended when one parent threatened to sue.

I'd like to remind you that the bombs didn't work which as any 3 fingered eXtremist will tell you is due to him not testing the detonator before hand

No room for trial and error in that business. Good thing they didn't take more shop classes.




I think this was a perfect policy as the 80's was long over

Trench coats were never in were they? Unless of course you are trying to conceal a sawed off.

Link (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm?se=yahoorefer)

I posted this because today marks the 10 year anniversary to one of the most horrific school shooting to ever happen in America, and 10 years later, we now have a clearer picture of what happened, and why it happened.

Thoughts?
...and all this new information ten years later just HAPPENS to come in the form of books that these authors are all profiting from.

Yeah, I'll bet we now know something new... how to make money from someone else's tragedy.

Oh, wait....

From Columbine I learned...

...that my Middle School Principal only had a few more years of life left. During the moment of silence held at my middle school, he left the microphone on. The entire school could hear him heaving and chugging, just to sit there and keep his heart from giving out. Poor guy, life must have sucked to have to have that problem...

Did we learn anything? Not much. Very sad day.

We learned that we need to make it easier for people to buy and carry guns.

What exactly in this article wasn't known about, oh, I dunno...9 years and 11 months ago?

I am still amazed that one of the first responses of the school district to the Columbine tragedy was to ban students from wearing black trenchcoats. :rolleyes:

I'd say that, NA.

The cops (hopefully) learned to keep their mouths shut about causes and stick to the damned facts.

Nobody knew Harris was just plain broken, not sprained or bullied. For one, I'm glad the "do you believe in God" horseshit was false, too.

Anyone here ever see the movie Elephant?

We learned that we need to make it easier for people to buy and carry guns.

Oh yes, because that would have stopped them from carrying out their orginal plan, which was to blow up the school.

We learned that we need to make it easier for people to buy and carry guns.

So they can protect themselves from maniacs who attack them with guns because it's so damn easy to buy and carry guns...

Really, the moment someone learns to actually increase penis size, the NRA membership will go down 90%.

Really, the moment someone learns to actually increase penis size, the NRA membership will go down 90%.

As a member of the NRA, I find that highly offensive.

Just joined 2-3 weeks ago.

As a member of the NRA, I find that highly offensive.

Just joined 2-3 weeks ago.

I said 90%, not 100%. *Shrugs*

Not that it matters: NM, DK and others rabble on and on about "evil Muslims" and it's not modded, even though there are some Muslims here, so... *Shrugs*

Oh yes, because that would have stopped them from carrying out their orginal plan, which was to blow up the school.
Actually, their original plan was to play Marilyn Manson's Mechanical Animals on repeat until everyone died from boredom of his faux-goth bullshit.

As a member of the NRA, I find that highly offensive.

Just joined 2-3 weeks ago.

The NRA is made of fail. If you really support gun rights, join the GOA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Owners_of_America) or JPFO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_the_Preservation_of_Firearms_Ownership).

Link (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm?se=yahoorefer)

I posted this because today marks the 10 year anniversary to one of the most horrific school shooting to ever happen in America, and 10 years later, we now have a clearer picture of what happened, and why it happened.

Thoughts?

Well, besides all the "It was Marilyn Manson, it was Doom, it was that heavy metal music, it was teasing, it was bullying", which we learned that people always need scapegoats (bad ones, too) from, nothing at all. Of course, kids should learn to stop taking all the insults and jibes seriously.

Considering Ive seen interviews from people that were at the school talk about at least one of them being bullied, I dont really buy the 'they werent bullied' part, and never have.

Harris was always a sociopath. Why is this news? Guess what, when you commit that kind of mass violance, you are probably a fucking sociopath, or at the very least psychologically unhinged.

Actually, their original plan was to play Marilyn Manson's Mechanical Animals on repeat until everyone died from boredom of his faux-goth bullshit.

Not even funny. The rage stirred up against bands that were uninvolved, kind of kills the air of levity.

Not even funny. The rage stirred up against bands that were uninvolved, kind of kills the air of levity.

And you know whats funny? I dont like Manson. At all. But have you seen post-columbine interviews? Manson, hands down, has the smartest thing to say.

Considering Ive seen interviews from people that were at the school talk about at least one of them being bullied, I dont really buy the 'they werent bullied' part, and never have.

Harris was always a sociopath. Why is this news? Guess what, when you commit that kind of mass violance, you are probably a fucking sociopath, or at the very least psychologically unhinged.

He was a psychopath, not a sociopath. Sociopaths are just people who can't emotionally connect to others. Not every sociopath will go out and commit crimes; in fact, many will become successful members of society.

He was a psychopath, not a sociopath. Sociopaths are just people who can't emotionally connect to others. Not every sociopath will go out and commit crimes; in fact, many will become successful members of society.

Actually, psychopathy falls under the umbrella of sociopathy. The three types of sociopathy are:

Psychopathy
Antisocial personality disorder
Dissocial personality disorder

Dissocial seems to be what youre refering to. Harris was probably a psychopath, but I could see the arguement for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Really, the moment someone learns to actually increase penis size, the NRA membership will go down 90%.As a member of the NRA, I find that highly offensive.


As do I

As do I

Oh please, we joke about everything on here. Dont tell me you think the NRA is somehow off limits?

And you know whats funny? I dont like Manson. At all. But have you seen post-columbine interviews? Manson, hands down, has the smartest thing to say.

I didn't mind the earlier Manson. But I did like KMFDM, who self-destructed in the wake of accusations that they inspired the massacre.

As "Corporate Avenger" said:

"In the history of the human race
Of all the inspirations for the separation of man from his true tribal culture
Of all the inspirations for the acts of violence from one man onto another
From one nation onto another, from one oppressor onto the oppressed
There is no more guilty party and inspiration than those books known
As the Holy Bible, the Koran, and the Bagavad Gita to spread separation of mankind"

...but, let's attack the music, instead.

But have you seen post-columbine interviews? Manson, hands down, has the smartest thing to say.
At times, yes, young Brian has commented rather intelligently on the incident itself, and the subsequent furore.

Which only adds to the morbid hilarity, in my opinion, that anyone could be inspired to kill via his music.

Actually, psychopathy falls under the umbrella of sociopathy. The three types of sociopathy are:

Psychopathy
Antisocial personality disorder
Dissocial personality disorder

Dissocial seems to be what youre refering to. Harris was probably a psychopath, but I could see the arguement for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

You sure? The last time I checked (and I took a class on it not that long ago...), sociopathy was just another name for antisocial personality disorder, with dissocial personality disorder covered by it. Psychopathy was held as different because of the argument that not all psychopaths actually suffer from sociopathy; some actually emotionally connect quite well with others, but that doesn't stop them from being mass-murderers.

Edit: Not saying you're wrong. Just that the last time I checked, I had it right. I could easily be wrong, given the ever-evolving nature of psychology.

At times, yes, young Brian has commented rather intelligently on the incident itself, and the subsequent furore.

Which only adds to the morbid hilarity, in my opinion, that anyone could be inspired to kill via his music.

My favorite "They did it cause of the music!" will always be the kid who killed himself and his parents blamed Ozzy's song 'Suicide Solution'. Especially because if you read the album notes, the Ozzy explains the song is about getting through tough times and NOT killing yourself.

And if you like Ozzy enough to kill yourself over him, youd imagine the kid read the album notes.

Oh please, we joke about everything on here. Dont tell me you think the NRA is somehow off limits?

C'mon KoL, you should know me better than that by now. It's more that I don't believe Heik is joking.

Psychopathy is no longer in use as medical terminology according to the DSM - the correct terminology is antisocial personality disorder, which is equivilent to sociopathy. It's largely a linguistic difference, there's no real differentiation between symptoms except perhaps in their scale. "Psychopaths" are generally more impulsive and have little care if they're caught, "sociopaths" tend to be more calculating and cannot generally be easily identified.

You sure? The last time I checked (and I took a class on it not that long ago...), sociopathy was just another name for antisocial personality disorder, with dissocial personality disorder covered by it. Psychopathy was held as different because of the argument that not all psychopaths actually suffer from sociopathy; some actually emotionally connect quite well with others, but that doesn't stop them from being mass-murderers.

Apperantly sociopathy is just the umbrella term (I thought the same you did until I just looked it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath).

All though, sociopath is basically the slang term for Antisocial Personality disorder, just not the technical one.

It's more that I don't believe Heik is joking.

Perhaps, one day, I will deem fit to make your interpretation of what I say for you.

Then again, perhaps not.

Apperantly sociopathy is just the umbrella term (I thought the same you did until I just looked it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath).

All though, sociopath is basically the slang term for Antisocial Personality disorder, just not the technical one.

It's also worth noting that being a sociopath does not neccessarily imply that you wish to kill people. I, for example, have very little interest in violence.

Apperantly sociopathy is just the umbrella term (I thought the same you did until I just looked it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath).

All though, sociopath is basically the slang term for Antisocial Personality disorder, just not the technical one.

I'd rather have a better source than Wikipedia on this one, personally. Especially given how easily Wikipedia could be wrong.

Perhaps, one day, I will deem fit to make your interpretation of what I say for you.

Then again, perhaps not.

What?

I'd rather have a better source than Wikipedia on this one, personally. Especially given how easily Wikipedia could be wrong.

http://www.apsu.edu/oconnort/crim/crimtheory08.htm

Notice how they seperate Sociopathy from APD and how its much more general, with critera that applies to both.

EDIT: I was taught how you apperantly were taught, but keep in mind, the DSM is updated pretty regularly.

It's also worth noting that being a sociopath does not neccessarily imply that you wish to kill people. I, for example, have very little interest in violence.

Forgive me if I dont believe that youve been diagnosed as a sociopath

What?

To wit: What you believe about what I say is not mine to worry about. The fact remains that people here outright said worse things about all or most Muslims, and none got modded for what they said even though there are Muslims here.

Forgive me if I dont believe that youve been diagnosed as a sociopath

If he claims he has, will "you're a sociopath!" be a flame when dealing with him? :p

To wit: What you believe about what I say is not mine to worry about. The fact remains that people here outright said worse things about all or most Muslims, and none got modded for what they said even though there are Muslims here.

Yeah, this. 1010 or whatever has said far more offensive things about groups then wha you said about the NRA. Forgive me if I dont shed any tears over you hurting his feelings.

Forgive me if I dont believe that youve been diagnosed as a sociopath

No, I self-identify as a sociopath. I have been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder.

I have been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder.

This I believe even less.

No, I self-identify as a sociopath

Of course you do. This is the Internet after all.

No, I self-identify as a sociopath. I have been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder.

You're a sociopath!

(Whee! I get to blow off some steam with no harm!) :D

Of course you do. This is the Internet after all.

Yup.

Forgive me if I dont believe that youve been diagnosed as a sociopath
If Getbrett's amoralist position that he uses in posts -- his lack of empathy/sympathy with humans and nonhuman animals, his seeming inability to comprehend certain moral quandaries, etc. -- is his genuine one, and I see no evidence that it is not, then he would fall under the umbrella of antisocial personality disorder.

It's a fascinating position/condition.

If Getbrett's amoralist position that he uses in posts -- his lack of empathy/sympathy with humans and nonhuman animals, his seeming inability to comprehend certain moral quandaries, etc. -- is his genuine one, and I see no evidence that it is not, then he would fall under the umbrella of antisocial personality disorder.

It's a fascinating position/condition.

As I've elaborated on a previous post (not in this thread), I use the internet as a medium of honesty and transparency. In reality, I do not portray myself as I do here, because I understand that it would not be productive. I see little point in lying when there's a barrier of pseudo-anonymity and lack of potential retribution. I choose to be honest here because the reaction it elicits intrigues me - it gives me insight into how I'd be viewed should I drop my mask in the outside world.

As I've elaborated on a previous post (not in this thread), I use the internet as a medium of honesty and transparency. In reality, I do not portray myself as I do here, because I understand that it would not be productive. I see little point in lying when there's a barrier of pseudo-anonymity and lack of potential retribution. I choose to be honest here because the reaction it elicits intrigues me - it gives me insight into how I'd be viewed should I drop my mask in the outside world.

Well, assuming you *are* a sociopath, you'd be seen like a sociopath. o_O

Well, you'd be seen like a sociopath. o_O

No, I'd be seen as a ****. Most people don't understand the subtleties of the condition. My behaviour would simply be abhorrent. I limit myself because I have no desire to be punished - but that is the only limit upon my behaviour that I cognitively experience. In moments of existentialist awe I marvel at my own internal freedom. It's something so few get to experience.

It also comes with a price, of course. My freedom from the absurdities of remorse, guilt and meaningful human attachment also bring the burden of perpetual disassociation. With every passing day I feel further disconnected from both reality and what passes as "human". I float through life with no meaning or purpose and no desire for either, exploiting those I desire to exploit, never truly understanding why I exploit them. Though I don't feel anguish over this, it's nonetheless intellectually disturbing to think that I am something profoundly abnormal.

No, I'd be seen as a ****. Most people don't understand the subtleties of the condition. My behaviour would simply be abhorrent. I limit myself because I have no desire to be punished - but that is the only limit upon my behaviour that I cognitively experience. In moments of existentialist awe I marvel at my own internal freedom. It's something so few get to experience.

Okay, just so we're clear: Can we or can we not make jokes about it? o_O On one hand, I figure it'd be bad taste. On the other, you don't seem to care.

We learned that tragedies like this can be exploited for our own political and personal agenda?

What? We only learnt this ten years ago?

No, I'd be seen as a ****. Most people don't understand the subtleties of the condition. My behaviour would simply be abhorrent. I limit myself because I have no desire to be punished - but that is the only limit upon my behaviour that I cognitively experience. In moments of existentialist awe I marvel at my own internal freedom. It's something so few get to experience.

It also comes with a price, of course. My freedom from the absurdities of remorse, guilt and meaningful human attachment also bring the burden of perpetual disassociation. With every passing day I feel further disconnected from both reality and what passes as "human".

I don't pity nor applaud your way of being. You just are.

If Getbrett's amoralist position that he uses in posts . . . is his genuine one

Of course it isn't.

Okay, just so we're clear: Can we or can we not make jokes about it? o_O On one hand, I figure it'd be bad taste. On the other, you don't seem to care.

Feel free! Just remember, if I don't laugh, I'll kill you.

Of course it isn't.

Or else, he'd be a sociopath.

Feel free! Just remember, if I don't laugh, I'll kill you.

You're a sociopath! :p

Of course it isn't.
I have as much evidence for or against Getbrett having an antisocial personality disorder as I have for or against you being a lawyer.

From what I've seen, his position is constant.

http://www.apsu.edu/oconnort/crim/crimtheory08.htm

Notice how they seperate Sociopathy from APD and how its much more general, with critera that applies to both.

EDIT: I was taught how you apperantly were taught, but keep in mind, the DSM is updated pretty regularly.

Ah!

Damn. Now I have to update my cue cards.

Of course you do. This is the Internet after all.

Yep, where one could claim to be a pilot, a senator, even a lawyer! After all it's the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. :D

Yep, where one could claim to be a pilot, a senator, even a lawyer! After all it's the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. :D

Everyone seems to be a Lawyer on the internet...

I didn't mind the earlier Manson. But I did like KMFDM, who self-destructed in the wake of accusations that they inspired the massacre.

As "Corporate Avenger" said:

"In the history of the human race
Of all the inspirations for the separation of man from his true tribal culture
Of all the inspirations for the acts of violence from one man onto another
From one nation onto another, from one oppressor onto the oppressed
There is no more guilty party and inspiration than those books known
As the Holy Bible, the Koran, and the Bagavad Gita to spread separation of mankind"

...but, let's attack the music, instead.

KMFDM is still around just so you know, not with all the same band members of course, but Sascha K is still doing shit. I saw them in concert a few years ago.

On topic moreish:

I was targeted, to an extent by "the man" in the wake of Columbine because I listened to KMFDM, along with Thrill Kill Kult, which they didn't even know was a band and thought I was leading a cult haha...

Everyone seems to be a Lawyer on the internet...

Yea no one wants to be a pilot on the internet, unless an airline crashes, then everyone is an aviation expert. :rolleyes:

Yep, where one could claim to be a pilot, a senator, even a lawyer! After all it's the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. :D

You're quite right. Anyone could claim to be a lawyer, and we've had some pretty obvious liars try to do exactly that.

Fortunately for the sanctity of my profession, the ones who try to pose as lawyers are rather easy to expose. Usually it has to do with not knowing a damned thing about the law.

Everyone seems to be a Lawyer on the internet...

People often like to cloak themselves in an aura of authority. Makes them seem to know what they're talking about, and perhaps makes their posts appear to come from a more educated position. But, as I said, the fakers are easy to spot.

Yea no one wants to be a pilot on the internet, unless an airline crashes, then everyone is an aviation expert. :rolleyes:

Indeed, it's amazing how people who claim to have knowledge in certain topics, can they say something that someone with even the most cursory knowledge in the subject would know instantly to be false. Like, say, stating that if a battery died mid flight it could cause the plane to crash, when the battery is only useful for the ignition process, to supply the initial power surge to the pistons, and does absolutely nothing once in flight.

As I said, the fakers are easy to spot. They're the ones who claim knowledge, but fail to demonstrate it when given opportunity.

Indeed, it's amazing how people who claim to have knowledge in certain topics, can they say something that someone with even the most cursory knowledge in the subject would know instantly to be false. Like, say, stating that if a battery died mid flight it could cause the plane to crash, when the battery is only useful for the ignition process, to supply the initial power surge to the pistons, and does absolutely nothing once in flight.

As I said, the fakers are easy to spot. They're the ones who claim knowledge, but fail to demonstrate it when given opportunity.
OMG Neo Art is a pilot! ;)

Indeed, it's amazing how people who claim to have knowledge in certain topics, can they say something that someone with even the most cursory knowledge in the subject would know instantly to be false. Like, say, stating that if a battery died mid flight it could cause the plane to crash, when the battery is only useful for the ignition process, to supply the initial power surge to the pistons, and does absolutely nothing once in flight.

As I said, the fakers are easy to spot. They're the ones who claim knowledge, but fail to demonstrate it when given opportunity.

Ugh I know, or people who think that if the engine stop, then the aircraft will fall like a rock.

They just completely ignore the wings, the rudders, or the stabilizers. >.<

OMG Neo Art is a pilot! ;)

Please, everyone who knows how internal combustion engine works knows that.

I doubt he knows why aircrafts with internal combustion engines have two spark plug per cylinder instead of one like in cars.

Fortunately for the sanctity of my profession, the ones who try to pose as lawyers are rather easy to expose. Usually it has to do with not knowing a damned thing about the law.
Sure, but your knowledge of the law could have been achieved through extensive reading or education. There's nothing that definitively proves that you're not, for example, a talented yet lazy law school drop-out. But I choose to believe you, because it seems probable from your behaviour and words.

The same is true for Getbrett.

As you say:

...the fakers are easy to spot.
And unless I missed a phrase/post/thread where Getbrett showed himself not to have an unusual and extreme lack of empathy which very well could be the result of an antisocial personality disorder, I haven't spotted anything fake about his persona.

If you have, let's see it. (Admittedly, I'd be disappointed; amoralists are rare.)

Columbine reviewed, eh?

3/10.

Columbine reviewed, eh?

3/10.

So wrong...

And yet... And yet...

I laughed.

I doubt he knows why aircrafts with internal combustion engines have two spark plug per cylinder instead of one like in cars.

Of course I do, airplanes are not the mythical complex creatures you seem to think. The simple answer is "because the FAA requires it." Of course, if you want to know why they have that requirement, it's fairly simple. Magneto redundancy. The magneto is what induces the electric current in the coil, which creates the differential in the gap, causing the spark.

The primary magneto is keyed to the one set of plugs, and the second magneto wired to the second (typically if memory serves, the primary magneto is set up to the top plugs in the back of the bloc, and the bottom plugs in the top of the bloc, and the inverse is true, but I'm not sure if that's a hard and fast convention).

Of course, if you're looking for a very, very basic answer, the reason is "redundancy"

I'm a little concerned at how this article paints Harris and Kliebold as basically evil monsters who weren't actually the victims of bullying - because, true or not, it degrades the fact that someone bullied and ostracized enough will react in the same manner as these evil monsters. Hell, if I'd had access to firearms in high school there'd have been a lot of dead people, because I hated everything. I didn't do it, obviously, and I am no longer a depressed little ball of rage and hatred, but my point is that one need not be a psychopath to commit such atrocities, even if such atrocities are also committed by psychopaths.

I'm a little concerned at how this article paints Harris and Kliebold as basically evil monsters who weren't actually the victims of bullying - because, true or not, it degrades the fact that someone bullied and ostracized enough will react in the same manner as these evil monsters. Hell, if I'd had access to firearms in high school there'd have been a lot of dead people, because I hated everything. I didn't do it, obviously, and I am no longer a depressed little ball of rage and hatred, but my point is that one need not be a psychopath to commit such atrocities, even if such atrocities are also committed by psychopaths.

I disagree. It's easy to think you'd do it, it's easy to say you'd do it, it's easy to fantasize about doing it.

It's entirely different to actually do it. To willingly set in motion what they had planned is not merely a matter of being "bullied". To try and blow up a school takes a special level of depravity.

Of course I do, airplanes are not the mythical complex creatures you seem to think. The simple answer is "because the FAA requires it." Of course, if you want to know why they have that requirement, it's fairly simple. Magneto redundancy. The magneto is what induces the electric current in the coil, which creates the differential in the gap, causing the spark.

The primary magneto is keyed to the one set of plugs, and the second magneto wired to the second (typically if memory serves, the primary magneto is set up to the top plugs in the back of the bloc, and the bottom plugs in the top of the bloc, and the inverse is true, but I'm not sure if that's a hard and fast convention).

Of course, if you're looking for a very, very basic answer, the reason is "redundancy"

Half right, redundancy and for better performance.

You googled this, didn't you?

Not even funny. The rage stirred up against bands that were uninvolved, kind of kills the air of levity.

A good a cappella quartet who were local to the West Coast and were just starting to go national were called The Trenchcoats. Following Columbine, they felt the need (because of the fraudulent "trenchcoat mafia" crap) to change their name to just The Coats. Their popularity hovered and then diminished. I can't say for sure that there's a causality there, but it's pretty damned coincidental. Not that I'd suggest they sue the media or Littleton PD or anything, but sheesh.

A good a cappella quartet who were local to the West Coast and were just starting to go national were called The Trenchcoats. Following Columbine, they felt the need (because of the fraudulent "trenchcoat mafia" crap) to change their name to just The Coats. Their popularity hovered and then diminished. I can't say for sure that there's a causality there, but it's pretty damned coincidental. Not that I'd suggest they sue the media or Littleton PD or anything, but sheesh.

Culture, as ever, the victim of hysteria.

To wit: What you believe about what I say is not mine to worry about. The fact remains that people here outright said worse things about all or most Muslims, and none got modded for what they said even though there are Muslims here.

Ah, okay. Wasn't intending to take this to moderation, just expressing my displeasure at your opinion (or my perception thereof).

And you know whats funny? I dont like Manson. At all. But have you seen post-columbine interviews? Manson, hands down, has the smartest thing to say.

I concur.

You're quite right. Anyone could claim to be a lawyer, and we've had some pretty obvious liars try to do exactly that.

Fortunately for the sanctity of my profession, the ones who try to pose as lawyers are rather easy to expose. Usually it has to do with not knowing a damned thing about the law.

"Sanctity?"

Half right, redundancy and for better performance.

Not...really, no. There's no real appreciable gain in performance, because it's not like there are two sets of spark plugs working. At any given moment, one magneto is active, firing one set, and the other is not, and the other set doesn't fire. An unused system doesn't "increase performance", any more than having a backup GPS system doesn't make your position twice as accurate. It's a backup. Most of the time it is, and should be, sitting idle.

I suppose in some very round about way, if you have one set of plugs that's corroding you can switch to the auxiliary system and run off the "fresh" plugs, but, again, that doesn't really "increase performance" in any meaningful way, especially since if you're noticing an appreciable decline in performance from your main set of plugs, you should probably have them changed.

More to point, redundancies come with their own set of inefficiencies. Twice the plugs means twice the gaskets, twice the chance of a system failure, and twice the work in doing engine checks. Likewise, redundant systems also take up room, and add weight. Redundancy systems tend to, if anything, cause a bit of inefficiency, simply because it's more to check, more room on the block, and more weight due to the magneto. But when you need one, you're damned glad you have one (which is why I question any idea of "increased performance", if you're switching over to your auxiliary magneto and wearing down your backup plugs, you're rather defeating the purpose of a "oh shit I need this RIGHT FUCKING NOW!" redundancy.

You googled this, didn't you?

That's one possibility. There is another of course. Which largely consists of the fact that my grandfather flew a P-51 Mustang over Europe in World War 2, with limited action in the pacific theater. After V-Day he returned to the states, and flew small charter services, until signing on with the growing American Airlines international branch, and was one of the first pilots in the world to fly the Boeing 707s intercontinentally. Then in the 70s he switched from piloting to air traffic control, retiring, ultimately, as the domestic air traffic control manager for Laguardia airport.

Growing up, whenever I'd visit Long Island, he'd take me up in his friend's little prop plane. He'd show me the controls, pop the engine and show me where everything was, explain the control systems, the redundancies, the various controls. He'd show me old system manuals for ww2 fighter planes, and some of the commercial jets. He'd show me his medals, explain how he got each one. He'd quiz me, he'd test me, he'd show me how it all worked. All until he voluntarily surrendered his license when his vision started to go. But we'd still talk about it, every visit, up until his death, about 13 years ago.

But hell, if it creates cracks in your world view in which planes are this magical thing that only the chosen few in the universe can understand, and that others might actually have knowledge of a subject without feeling the need to endlessly point it out at every opportunity (and even creating some when that fails) then sure, what the hell, I googled it.

Btw, my "sanctity" comment wasn't meant to denigrate your profession, NA, it just seemed like an odd word to use. It sounds like the word you'd use to describe a priest, or something. :p

Btw, my "sanctity" comment wasn't meant to denigrate your profession, NA, it just seemed like an odd word to use. It sounds like the word you'd use to describe a priest, or something. :p

its use was a tad tongue in cheek :p