NationStates Jolt Archive

Should we in the United States, implement income based affirmative action instead of racially based?
For example, low-income people are given preference?

No.

No. People should get jobs based on how skilled they are, not on how much money they currently make.

I'm sorry, I meant for College admissions.

I'm sorry, I meant for College admissions.

I was of the impression that if your grades are high enough there are ample grants and low interest loans about that you could get into college regardless of your familial income. I know my brother went through college, and is still going through it a decade later, on grants, loans et cetera.

I'm sorry, I meant for College admissions.

Again, no. You should get into college based on your intelligence, not on your income.

Again, no. You should get into college based on your intelligence, not on your income.

What you just sed...:D

I was of the impression that if your grades are high enough there are ample grants and low interest loans about that you could get into college regardless of your familial income. I know my brother went through college, and is still going through it a decade later, on grants, loans et cetera.

Oh, how I wish that were true ... as it stands, my scholarships are running out this year, and I have to find enough money to finish my degree. Gonna take a minor miracle this time.

And on affirmative action, well, it's hard to argue against something that works so obviously in my favor. I'm a female in engineering. However, I earned my way into college on merit-based scholarships (grades and standardized test scores), so I might not be the best person to reply to this topic.

I'm sorry, I meant for College admissions.

*In before colleges don't offer places based on rape*

However, from what I have heard about the American system I would support colleges giving some preference to people from low income families, or at least the governments giving more money to colleges to provide more places so as to allow these people in. Provided they still reach the academic requirements first.

And on affirmative action, well, it's hard to argue against something that works so obviously in my favor. I'm a female in engineering. However, I earned my way into college on merit-based scholarships (grades and standardized test scores), so I might not be the best person to reply to this topic.

See if you got it from getting good grades and good test scores then what is wrong with that? Did you gain because you were female? Did your results have to be lower simply because you were female?

See if you got it from getting good grades and good test scores then what is wrong with that? Did you gain because you were female? Did your results have to be lower simply because you were female?

I do agree with this. Acceptance to colleges should be based on merit.

But what about the poor kid who has to help his mother or father work after school? He/She
works hard in school, tries to participate, but can't stay after school?

I'm really confused, It's 4/20 and I should smoke.

See if you got it from getting good grades and good test scores then what is wrong with that? Did you gain because you were female? Did your results have to be lower simply because you were female?

All I'll say is there are scholarships for my college where one of the qualifications is being female. I don't have time to stay and debate this, I have a senior design project due Friday and an ethics paper (embryonic stem-cell research and cloning) due Wednesday. :)

I do agree with this. Acceptance to colleges should be based on merit.

But what about the poor kid who has to help his mother or father work after school? He/She
works hard in school, tries to participate, but can't stay after school?

I'm really confused, It's 4/20 and I should smoke.

Then more help for that family, rather then automatic college entry would seem to be a better idea.

All I'll say is there are scholarships for my college where one of the qualifications is being female. I don't have time to stay and debate this, I have a senior design project due Friday and an ethics paper (embryonic stem-cell research and cloning) due Wednesday. :)

Now the question is this scholarship part of you getting the offer or did you have to get into the univeristy beforehand?

Yeah I have a few assignments due myself better get to it.

I do agree with this. Acceptance to colleges should be based on merit.

But what about the poor kid who has to help his mother or father work after school? He/She
works hard in school, tries to participate, but can't stay after school?

I'm really confused, It's 4/20 and I should smoke.

Why would they stay after school? Unless you mean they can't do their homework?

I sometimes do think some things need to be fixed after I see some intelligent people miss out because they didn't have the money to go and then you see some absolute dumb asses who drop out after the first year because they can afford to go.

I can't say a whole lot on how to fixthe American system as I don't know a whole lot about it but I can say a few things on what I think is right or wrong.

Being at school essentially teaches you to be at school, the more you do it, the better you do.

People are disadvantaged from receiving as much teaching as others and this has a marked effect. As people we should assist those who lack nothing other than time, and the environment, to study.

Poor people generally fall within this demographic and so I don't see much problem with creating some 'equality' in terms of affirmative action using poverty as an indicator.

Why would they stay after school? Unless you mean they can't do their homework?

I sometimes do think some things need to be fixed after I see some intelligent people miss out because they didn't have the money to go and then you see some absolute dumb asses who drop out after the first year because they can afford to go.

I can't say a whole lot on how to fixthe American system as I don't know a whole lot about it but I can say a few things on what I think is right or wrong.

Well, all through high school I had to do extracurricular activities, join clubs, etc.... Basically I saw my friends have to go home and have to work and such and the school I went to, Mariner HS did little to help them stay on track.

It's because I've personally seen so many of my friends rejected into WSU, and UCSB because of a lack of extracurricular activity and relatively low 3.5 GPA that lead to them going to Everett Community College.

Well, all through high school I had to do extracurricular activities, join clubs, etc.... Basically I saw my friends have to go home and have to work and such and the school I went to, Mariner HS did little to help them stay on track.

It's because I've personally seen so many of my friends rejected into WSU, and UCSB because of a lack of extracurricular activity and relatively low 3.5 GPA that lead to them going to Everett Community College.

See and this is something, I do know about the American system and is something I think is wrong. The need to have these extracurricular activities. What is the point of them? How exactly does playing on the football team or being a member of the school paper make you a better student of economics or studying engineering. I understand it for a job but really you would think that having to work after school would count as an extracurricular activity after all it gives you reponsisbility and actually have to deal with many more things then simply playing a sport after school.

See and this is something, I do know about the American system and is something I think is wrong. The need to have these extracurricular activities. What is the point of them? How exactly does playing on the football team or being a member of the school paper make you a better student of economics or studying engineering. I understand it for a job but really you would think that having to work after school would count as an extracurricular activity after all it gives you reponsisbility and actually have to deal with many more things then simply playing a sport after school.

Exactly! But the colleges think differently :(

See and this is something, I do know about the American system and is something I think is wrong. The need to have these extracurricular activities. What is the point of them? How exactly does playing on the football team or being a member of the school paper make you a better student of economics or studying engineering. I understand it for a job but really you would think that having to work after school would count as an extracurricular activity after all it gives you reponsisbility and actually have to deal with many more things then simply playing a sport after school.

The schools have to profit from a system that rewards having sports students for that to be viable, which they do.

Having said that, at least sports students receive, or should receive, further education rather than leave school at 16 to punt on a chance for the European leagues.

The schools have to profit from a system that rewards having sports students for that to be viable, which they do.

Having said that, at least sports students receive, or should receive, further education rather than leave school at 16 to punt on a chance for the European leagues.

So why should they get a spot simply because they are good at sports? How does that make them a better student?

So why should they get a spot simply because they are good at sports? How does that make them a better student?

It improves the university's sports team which arguably brings in more money to further fund academic activities. Granted, this isn't actually what happens--what actually happens is the money just gets sunk right back into sports at the sacrifice of other academic endeavors.

I'm somewhat torn on the sports thing. On the one hand, no matter how stupid and inane I think college sports are, others feel differently and thus they DO bring money into universities. On the other, it feels somewhat contrary to the entire point of universities.

It improves the university's sports team which arguably brings in more money to further fund academic activities. Granted, this isn't actually what happens--what actually happens is the money just gets sunk right back into sports at the sacrifice of other academic endeavors.

I'm somewhat torn on the sports thing. On the one hand, no matter how stupid and inane I think college sports are, others feel differently and thus they DO bring money into universities. On the other, it feels somewhat contrary to the entire point of universities.

See the thing is in your top paragraph that is exactly why they do but I would argue that the system is wrong, part of which is because it does miss the entire point of universties

You end up with the "Robin Hood" dilemma. Steal from the rich, give to the poor, now the poor are rich, you have to steal from them. Where does it end?

And edit to add: No, I couldn't be arsed to actually read the thread first, and discover this is supposedly about college admissions, although I don't see how.

So why should they get a spot simply because they are good at sports? How does that make them a better student?

They get a spot because it's profitable for a school to attract good sportspeople, and they are made better students simply by being at school.

In my opinion, affirmative action is also 'profitable' in net effect. it's not blocking the best from going to the best schools, it's allowing those disadvantaged to overcome some of those disadvantages.

See the thing is in your top paragraph that is exactly why they do but I would argue that the system is wrong, part of which is because it does miss the entire point of universties

I do think it's a workable model if college sports were forced to undergo some reforms. First would be that only so much of the money a university draws in from its sports program is allowed to go back into the sports program.

This would do two things that I'd like to see. It would reemphasize academics in university, rather than sports. It would also encourage the development of less popular sports simply by virtue of those potentially having a better cost-profit ratio.

A pretty good argument against this is that it may result in various universities gaining an insurmountable sports advantage as their teams already bring in so much money that they could maintain their teams through such a model. I'm honestly not familiar enough with the college sports world to say either way, though. This would change if Ultimate Frisbee was considered a proper sports at schools. =p

Affirmative action=fail, although it'd be slightly more acceptable if it went towards poor people. Honestly I don't know anyone who dropped out that did it because they didn't have the money- anyone will give you a loan that you don't have to repay until after college(the loan can even include living expenses), and theres plenty of decent, but not inaccessible state schools where tuition is quite low. So I rather like the system, my parents didn't pay for anything for me during the past 4 years (with the exception of crashing at their place and a few meals over summer), and I've come out with more money in my bank account and a little bit of debt.

Some affirmative action programs already target areas based on income. For instance, there are recruiting and tutoring efforts specifically targeted to low income areas. Because ethnic minorities tend to also be economically disadvantaged, these programs also end up helping them.

I shall dust off this weapon of mass destruction, and end this thread.


... I'm going to repeat some of what I have previously said and linked on the subject of affirmative action.

I'd love to see some of you try to show a U.S. law that requires quotas. You love to burn that strawman.

Here are some links and information about what affirmative action actually is and why it should exist and/or debunking some of the canards you have fallen for/perpetuate:

US Dept. of Labor: Facts on Executive Order 11246 -- Affirmative Action (http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/ofccp/aa.htm)

This part is particularly enlightening:



These are good sources of information. The first is short and summarizes some of the relevant law. The second is extremely detailed.

ABA Talking Points: Affirmative Action (http://www.abanet.org/publiced/lawday/talking/equal_aa.html)
Affirmative Action Review: Report to the President (http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/aa-index.html)

Equal Opportunity Employment Commission: Federal Laws Prohibiting Job Discrimination (http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html)
Ten Myths About Affirmative Action (http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm)
Reverse Discrimination Quiz (http://www.prrac.org/full_text.php?text_id=794&item_id=7812&newsletter_id=67&header=Race+%2F+Racism)
Whites Swim in Racial Preference (http://www.prrac.org/full_text.php?text_id=789&item_id=7807&newsletter_id=67&header=Race+%2F+Racism)

Some actual definitions of affirmative action:

Here are the U.S. Department of Labor's official definition(s):
http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/ofccp/aa.htm
http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/ofccp/fs11246.htm

http://www.usd.edu/equalopp/definitions.cfm
Affirmative Action: Proactively hiring and promoting qualified individuals in protected groups such as minorities, disabled veterans, Vietnam-era veterans and women

http://www.unmc.edu/ethics/words.html
Affirmative action*. Positive steps to enhance the diversity of some group, often to remedy the cumulative effect of subtle as well as gross expressions of prejudice. When numerical goals are set, they are set according to the group's representation in the applicant pool rather than the group's representation in the general population. For example, a medical school with an affirmative action program would seek to admit members of an underrepresented group in proportion to their representation in the population of those who had completed pre-medical requirements and wished to attend medical school. Affirmative action should be distinguished from reparations.

http://www.wwnorton.com/stiglitzwalsh/economics/glossary.htm
affirmative action
actions by employers to seek out actively minorities and women for jobs and to provide them with training and other opportunities for promotion

http://www.kumc.edu/eoo/glossary.html
Affirmative Action: Good faith efforts to ensure equal employment opportunity and correct the effects of past discrimination against affected groups. Where appropriate, affirmative action includes goals to correct underutilization and development of results-oriented programs to address problem areas.

http://www.oregon.gov/Gov/GovAA/definitions.shtml
Affirmative Action: procedures by which racial/ethnic minorities, women, persons in the protected age category, persons with disabilities, Vietnam era veterans, and disabled veterans are provided with increased employment opportunities. This will also include programs for monitoring progress and problem identification. It shall not mean any sort of quota system.

http://www.malyconsulting.com/Resources/terms.html#AffirmativeAction
Affirmative Action (AA) top ^
Actions, policies, and procedures to which a contractor commits itself that are designed to achieve equal employment opportunity. The affirmative action obligation entails: (1) thorough, systematic efforts to prevent discrimination from occurring or to detect it and eliminate it as promptly as possible, and (2) recruitment and outreach measures.

I was of the impression that if your grades are high enough there are ample grants and low interest loans about that you could get into college regardless of your familial income. I know my brother went through college, and is still going through it a decade later, on grants, loans et cetera.

Your 'impression' is wrong.

I shall dust off this weapon of mass destruction, and end this thread.

http://www.wwnorton.com/stiglitzwalsh/economics/glossary.htm
link doesn't work.

I shall dust off this weapon of mass destruction, and end this thread.

err... there are some UN Inspectors that want to talk to you about your WTD [Weapon of Thread Destruction]. :p

http://www.wwnorton.com/stiglitzwalsh/economics/glossary.htm
link doesn't work.

'tever.

No. Blacks represent 13.4% of the U.S. population as of the latest census, so they should be awarded 13.4% of admissions at all universities, from the greatest to the smallest. There is no shortage of qualified minority candidates, and don't give me any bs about the applicant pool or that they aren't as prepared as others. This is the only way we can end historic discrimination: admission proportional to the general population.

Likewise, Latinos should be allotted 14.8% of admission seats, Asians 4.4%, etc. with some exceptions made for international students. Women should also receive proportional representation and additional hiring incentives to work in traditionally male-dominated fields.

This is the only way we can reverse traditionally racist and sexist power structures in higher education and the workplace.

I, for one, don't believe in affirmative action, period.

Anti-discrimination laws that prevent discrimination for employment based on gener/race/sexual orientation/religion, sure.

But not affirmative action. It's a patronising pat on hte head, as if to say "Oh well, you can't make it on your own - let's give you a hand up, because you're special". Been there, received that (as well as been fired from jobs due to being one of teh gheyz). No thanks - make the playing field as level as possible, but let me succeed on my own merits.

Note: I do not refer to such things as scholarships and such like, only employment opportunities. I beleive in scholarships and enabling access to education for people from poor backgrounds.

America should be a place of equal opportunity. Is that not the American dream in itself? To be able to, through your own hard work and effort, be able to rise up to the highest and mightiest of society? I do not have anything wrong with a class system, but I do believe that all people are created equal and that everyone, regardless of race, gender, economics, etc, should have an equal opportunity to succeed. I LOATHE affirmative action due to the fact that it is blatantly destroying the American dream. It is an abomination of American society. To make it economically based would make it no better. Regardless, the middle class white male is always screwed in the deal. Economically they aren't poor enough, racially, their too common. Merit is the only way that guarantees equal opportunity. The only true blue American way of equality. Of securing the American dream for everyone.

I rather dislike how in graduate school the standard to get a fellowship from the university if you are an acceptable minority (i.e., women don't count) is to meet the minimum acceptance standards (3.0 GPA, above 75% on GRE/GMAT). If you're from the majority ethnic group, the standards are 3.6 and 90%.

I despise all forms of affirmative action.

I despise all forms of affirmative action.

oh? and why's that?

Ah, the old middle white class is under attack, the old chestnut...

A different perspective... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY)

Ah, the old middle white class is under attack, the old chestnut...

A different perspective... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY)

This is joyous :D

"We're not just going to fall from number one to number two...they're going to hold us down and fuck us in the ass forever...and we totally deserve it, but for now wheeeee!"

"If you're white and you don't admit that it's great, you're an asshole!"

*In before colleges don't offer places based on rape*

...which means...what?

I used to be very uncomfortable about affirmative action. Then I finished high school and joined the real world.

Affirmative action doesn't make everything all better, but at least it tries.

I used to be very uncomfortable about affirmative action. Then I finished high school and joined the real world.

Affirmative action doesn't make everything all better, but at least it tries.

We're keeping policies because they 'try to' now?

I used to be very uncomfortable about affirmative action.

Yeah, me too.

Then I finished high school and joined the real world.

Yeah, me too.

We're keeping policies because they 'try to' now?

Do you believe the Center for Disease Control can successfully control every disease?

Do you believe the Center for Disease Control can successfully control every disease?
It's actually "Centers for Disease Control," plural. The point remains, though.