NationStates Jolt Archive

A police officer has been interviewed under caution for, and may be charged with, manslaughter after new post mortem evidence (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8004222.stm). Early reports only as yet, but this has the potential now to be a much bigger political firestorm.

Old Bill will get off on a technicality. Which is unfortunate.

Abdominal bleeding, the article says. That was not necessarily caused by the fall.

you' know (I'm just going to throw this out there so bear with me) maybe the protesters should of been law abiding and peaceful

A valid argument.

you' know (I'm just going to throw this out there so bear with me) maybe the protesters should of been law abiding and peaceful

Which this particular guy was. He was attacked from behind, and in fact, he wasn't even a protester - he was walking home from work.

Also, "should've". Should of is not a valid grammatical construct.

you' know (I'm just going to throw this out there so bear with me) maybe the protesters should of been law abiding and peaceful

Because a bloke not involved in the protests, walking away from the police with his hands in his pockets is causing so much trouble?

Because a bloke not involved in the protests, walking away from the police with his hands in his pockets is causing so much trouble?
Did you see how he walked? And that sour and sulky expression? He was clearly no good rolemodel for todays unruly youth. Besides that whole shoving-and-batoning business was only a friendly attempt at cheering him up, but those darn lefties pulled the whole thing out of context by cutting out the yakety sax playing in the background.:rolleyes:

Did you see how he walked? And that sour and sulky expression? He was clearly no good rolemodel for todays unruly youth. Besides that whole shoving-and-batoning business was only a friendly attempt at cheering him up, but those darn lefties pulled the whole thing out of context by cutting out the yakety sax playing in the background.:rolleyes:

Epic win.

Which this particular guy was. He was attacked from behind, and in fact, he wasn't even a protester - he was walking home from work.

Also, "should've". Should of is not a valid grammatical construct.

It sickening ain't it? The kettling is bad enough.. I honestly don't see how they get away with that..

Also, given it's prevelance within written english in Britain, how long do you think it will be 'til it's considered a valid grammatical contruct?

Which this particular guy was. He was attacked from behind, and in fact, he wasn't even a protester - he was walking home from work.

I never said he was being unruly just that the police were rather on the defensive in this situation

Also, "should've". Should of is not a valid grammatical construct.

its Friday afternoon :p

you' know (I'm just going to throw this out there so bear with me) maybe the protesters should of been law abiding and peaceful

Which perhaps explains why the police were in an aggressive mood, but doesn't excuse it.

How the hell did get develop abdominal hemorrhaging from that?

How the police treated the people protesting at the G20 summit honestly makes me sick. It's almost like it was an illegal protest. Very few protestors were acting illegally or aggressively. Those who were, were just kids who believe in anarchy. The police have no excuse for how they kettled in protestors, and the brutality they used.

Which perhaps explains why the police were in an aggressive mood, but doesn't excuse it.

Except this isn't "the Police". This is one identified cop who, it would seem, blew the lid off of his teakettle in a high intensity situation--something that is indicative that a guy shouldn't have been a cop in the first place.

And, anyways, the Police broke up in 1984, and Sting went on to be an activist/musician ;)

The police have no excuse for how they kettled in protestors, and the brutality they used.

how about all the previous G-unit protests?

Except this isn't "the Police". This is one identified cop who, it would seem, blew the lid off of his teakettle in a high intensity situation--something that is indicative that a guy shouldn't have been a cop in the first place.

hes a human who was clearing out bad protesters and saw some guy standing in his way when really if you have a load of coppers in riot gear standing behind you running is the most logical option

how about all the previous G-unit protests?

This is Britain dammit not Greece

how about all the previous G-unit protests?

Valid point, I'm just incredibly angry over how the UK has made more and more laws that give too much power to the police and the state, whilst limiting how we can protest.

For example, I've been arrested under the 2005 Prevention of Terrorism Act once, when I refused to allow a police search. They held me in a cell for 5days without evidence. They would have been allowed 28, without evidence. This isn't protecting the people, this is making them fearful.

Equally, you are no longer allowed to protest within a mile of Parliament, surely an infringement of ones right to protest.

Except this isn't "the Police". This is one identified cop who, it would seem, blew the lid off of his teakettle in a high intensity situation--something that is indicative that a guy shouldn't have been a cop in the first place.
Ah, yes, quite so.

And, anyways, the Police broke up in 1984, and Sting went on to be an activist/musician ;)

And saved Bart Simpson from a well :)

This is Britain dammit not Greece

or Melbourne or Berlin etc etc

Valid point, I'm just incredibly angry over how the UK has made more and more laws that give too much power to the police and the state, whilst limiting how we can protest.

baww the police don't find it very funny being pelted with eggs anymore and having to control spontaneous protests in the capital that can turn ugly

when I refused to allow a police search.

the police have a right to search you and its kind of stupid if the reason your being searched also involves protecting protesters themselves

Equally, you are no longer allowed to protest within a mile of Parliament, surely an infringement of ones right to protest.

oh gee I wonder why?

hes a human who was clearing out bad protesters and saw some guy standing in his way when really if you have a load of coppers in riot gear standing behind you running is the most logical option

That's why you grab the guy, ziptie his hands and haul him off to a tank for a couple of hours. It's what the police do at OSU on Michigan Weekend, it works remarkably well. Don't push him down--it honestly looks like the one cop just got so fed up with the protesters that he clobbered this guy.

And while I recognize that police are human beings, I hold them to a higher standard than the general populace--largely because I believe that police should be and are better than the general populace. Through their training, and the personal choice of a job serving their community which has high risks and low pay, I expect police to be some of the best amongst us. In turn, we give them a heightened degree of authority, but we also expect a heightened degree of personal responsibility and control.

Is that para even remotely coherent?

This is Britain dammit not Greece

Another valid point, British citizens are known for being fanatical about mildness. You can see it in our national sports - cricket, and our odd rituals formed from politeness, such as queing.

Surely, Chelmsford must be the only place in the world where you can see two 80 year old women having a fight because they 'insist that you were ahead of me in the que'

For example, I've been arrested under the 2005 Prevention of Terrorism Act once, when I refused to allow a police search. They held me in a cell for 5days without evidence. They would have been allowed 28, without evidence. This isn't protecting the people, this is making them fearful.

And what did you do to warrant detention?

That's why you grab the guy, ziptie his hands and haul him off to a tank for a couple of hours.

snip

For the record, I never said that quote you've attributed to me.

And what did you do to warrant detention?

Refused a police search because I was running late.

For the record, I never said that quote you've attributed to me.

And I fixed it...in cutting up Call to Power's comments, I somehow cut the wrong quote key out.

Refused a police search because I was running late.

When and where?

That's why you grab the guy, ziptie his hands and haul him off to a tank for a couple of hours. It's what the police do at OSU on Michigan Weekend, it works remarkably well. Don't push him down--it honestly looks like the one cop just got so fed up with the protesters that he clobbered this guy.

the way I was taught this was you clobber the guys in front of the shields down and two the officers to your rear handcuff him

unless of course the cells are full in which case the order is given out to just clobber à la NI

Is that para even remotely coherent?

sorta but you got the quote name wrong :p

Refused a police search because I was running late.

you trying to get shot boy? :D

This does suggest a possible lack of training - baiting the police into overreacting in front of cameras has been pretty much standard at every demo since Grosvenor Square 1968, at least by some people.

How the hell did get develop abdominal hemorrhaging from that?

He was apparently beaten before as well, and he's shoved pretty heavily to the ground.

the way I was taught this was you clobber the guys in front of the shields down and two the officers to your rear handcuff him

unless of course the cells are full in which case the order is given out to just clobber à la NI


What I've seen, especially when it's one or two people who are separated out from the group and essentially intermingled with the police (unsurprising that this happens when you're dealing with raging pack of drunk college kids) the nitwit who got into the crowd of cops gets grabbed, bagged, tagged and hauled off to one of the quonset hut/gymnasiums/temporary detention facilities the university and the CPD (best dressed police force in America, ftw!) set up on that particular weekend.

And I'm confused as to how that little misattribution worked.

How the hell did get develop abdominal hemorrhaging from that?
No kidding. Maybe a broken wrist, or something in the arms/shoulders, but where did he even touch the ground with his belly?

He was apparently beaten before as well, and he's shoved pretty heavily to the ground.

I haven't seen any videos of the guy being beaten, and I, for one, manage to launch myself forward like that on a bi-weekly basis, merely because my own two feet don't love me.

I haven't seen any videos of the guy being beaten, and I, for one, manage to launch myself forward like that on a bi-weekly basis, merely because my own two feet don't love me.

It wasn't caught on video, and you're not 47, and I doubt you have a diseased heart and liver.

What I've seen, especially when it's one or two people who are separated out from the group and essentially intermingled with the police

the police are doing bad drills and letting targets slip through the wall, next time go and bottle them from behind/pull one into an alley and beat him to death

be glad you don't have baton gunners or they would of been either heavily clubbed or if they are unlucky shot with a tear gas round which would of tenderized the bodies organs

It wasn't caught on video, and you're not 47, and I doubt you have a diseased heart and liver.

thank god London has CCTV and plenty of protesters were filming for some random reason (must of been holiday makers I suppose)

No kidding. Maybe a broken wrist, or something in the arms/shoulders, but where did he even touch the ground with his belly?

If you look at the video, you can just about see in the bottom left that his stomach hits the ground.

It wasn't caught on video,

Then I can't really speak to the veracity of this claim.

and you're not 47, and I doubt you have a diseased heart and liver.

From what I get though, the second examination is finding that the hemorrhaging is what killed him, independent of the diseased heart and liver.

the police are doing bad drills and letting targets slip through the wall, next time go and bottle them from behind/pull one into an alley and beat him to death

No dead end alley's around campus from my experience, and it's a less dangerous pack of drunks whom they're herding in a general, more controlled direction.

be glad you don't have baton gunners or they would of been either heavily clubbed or if they are unlucky shot with a tear gas round which would of tenderized the bodies organs



Fortunately, I was out of the way of the group, but the police had fired these demonic little knee-knockers into the crowd to get them out of the way. They looked painful.

This does suggest a possible lack of training - baiting the police into overreacting in front of cameras has been pretty much standard at every demo since Grosvenor Square 1968, at least by some people.

I am not so sure that that makes sense. As someone who has had to deal with police brutality towards protestors, there is nothing tempting about facing off with armed and armoured men who have little if any accountability, even if you do videotape them.

It wasn't caught on video, and you're not 47, and I doubt you have a diseased heart and liver.
Did this guy ever go to the vaunted NHS? Seems like the article said he died later that evening... Was it at home, on the operating table, or in the waiting room?

No dead end alley's around campus from my experience, and it's a less dangerous pack of drunks whom they're herding in a general, more controlled direction.

ah well we have Ireland rather close by which means that such police actions can often also include snipers on the prowl

maybe you could do them a favour and just give one a great big wedgie for being so lax :)

Fortunately, I was out of the way of the group, but the police had fired these demonic little knee-knockers into the crowd to get them out of the way. They looked painful.

technically the police are supposed to make sure the rounds land quite far from the targets which is why it can be oh such a bad idea to stand near the shields and give the gunners no such option ;)

I am not so sure that that makes sense. As someone who has had to deal with police brutality towards protestors, there is nothing tempting about facing off with armed and armoured men who have little if any accountability, even if you do videotape them.

then explain NI for me then

course its often the guys at the back doing this and pushing those at the front forward into police lines

No kidding. Maybe a broken wrist, or something in the arms/shoulders, but where did he even touch the ground with his belly?

It was probably the sharp blow to the abdomen that caused the bleeding. The same one that sent him sprawling.

...
then explain NI for me then

course its often the guys at the back doing this and pushing those at the front forward into police lines

NI? The New Internationalist magazine?

No kidding. Maybe a broken wrist, or something in the arms/shoulders, but where did he even touch the ground with his belly?
The Guardian website had a second video up last week showing the same police officer striking/shoving (can't remember which) the guy somewhere around one of his kidneys. I'll try and find it...

Edit: sorry, the second video clearly (well, sort of) shows the officer whacking him across the back of the legs. First video is the one that shows him being shoved.

Besides, just because his belly didn't hit the ground, how does that mean he couldn't get an abdominal haemorrhage? Firstly, it depends on the various forces on his body, and secondly you don't know the guy's medical history.

Did this guy ever go to the vaunted NHS? Seems like the article said he died later that evening... Was it at home, on the operating table, or in the waiting room?

It was 50 yards down the road.

A police officer has been interviewed under caution for, and may be charged with, manslaughter

There are a lot of policemen who like to bash people to death. Last week even in Milan Central Station, two policemen beated a homeless guy to death (they got arrested, yay).

In other news, water is still a lot more wet than the Sahara.

NI? The New Internationalist magazine?

I think Northern Ireland.

NI? The New Internationalist magazine?

Northern Ireland

Northern Ireland

What about it?

I am not so sure that that makes sense. As someone who has had to deal with police brutality towards protestors, there is nothing tempting about facing off with armed and armoured men who have little if any accountability, even if you do videotape them.

Small group of people influenced by Situationist ideas. It has been present at most of the big demos I have been on in the UK. Personally I think it is extremely counter-productive. The Poll Tax demo in Trafalgar Square 1990 started out as a real family day out, there were as many middle class pensioners as there were young people. I think that was a good thing in that it showed a broad opposition to the policy. However a small group of anarchists took an opportunity to provoke the police and it turned into a riot, in my opinion giving the Thatcher Government exactly what they wanted to spin it as a protest by a 'criminal minority'.

Small group of people influenced by Situationist ideas. It has been present at most of the big demos I have been on in the UK. Personally I think it is extremely counter-productive. The Poll Tax demo in Trafalgar Square 1990 started out as a real family day out, there were as many middle class pensioners as there were young people. I think that was a good thing in that it showed a broad opposition to the policy. However a small group of anarchists took an opportunity to provoke the police and it turned into a riot, in my opinion giving the Thatcher Government exactly what they wanted to spin it as a protest by a 'criminal minority'.

I see. Your single anecdote shows me that this is widespread and a standard tactic at most demonstrations.

I see. Your single anecdote shows me that this is widespread and a standard tactic at most demonstrations.

Well no it doesn't.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/apr/02/police-g20-protest-kettling

There is now an understanding that there are groups of infiltrators, usually parading under an anarchist flag, who are intent on provoking an overreaction from the police.

What about it?

40 years of violent rioting with police and army units that continues to some extent to this day

Well no it doesn't.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/apr/02/police-g20-protest-kettling

I see. Your single editorial shows me that this is widespread and a standard tactic at most demonstrations.

40 years of violent rioting with police and army units that continues to some extent to this day

Look, can you just get to the point where you tell me how Northern Ireland has anything to do with what I said?

Look, can you just get to the point where you tell me how Northern Ireland has anything to do with what I said?

for the past 40-odd years protesters have certainly not been scared of police in riot gear especially when you mix in groups who's very goal is police escalation such as the PIRA

However a small group of anarchists took an opportunity to provoke the police and it turned into a riot, in my opinion giving the Thatcher Government exactly what they wanted to spin it as a protest by a 'criminal minority'.
I obviously can't speak for the UK under Thatcher, but in Switzerland the police has more or less extensively been using Agents Provocateurs for quite some time now...

I see. Your single editorial shows me that this is widespread and a standard tactic at most demonstrations.




Things like the Black Block (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc) tactics that were used in settings ranging from Seattle to Toronto to Rostock. Even well before, in the 1770's these sorts of tactics were used to create incidents in Boston (such as the "Massacre") to be used for propaganda or to incite the populace. There's literature describing and supporting its use, and it's the sort of thing that gave us Kettling in response.

for the past 40-odd years protesters have certainly not been scared of police in riot gear especially when you mix in groups who's very goal is police escalation such as the PIRA

Or even Special Forces armed with guns and sat in APCs. See Bloody Sunday.

I see. Your single editorial shows me that this is widespread and a standard tactic at most demonstrations.



Look, can you just get to the point where you tell me how Northern Ireland has anything to do with what I said?

How many do you need? 'Cos I can find 'em

p82 of Fighting for Ireland

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bCy9m-_RQoMC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=provoking+the+police+into+overreacting&source=bl&ots=m77PzVrVYF&sig=ZfpM5GPwqbEyNHD5ElsQvrcKwu8&hl=en&ei=2djoSY_wCIrLjAe3p4ifCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1



"But McCann says the strategy of some local activists was "to provoke the police into over reaction" and this was easily achieved."

http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/Sunday_Times/arts2008/oct5_how_phoenix_lit_flames__LClarke.php

for the past 40-odd years protesters have certainly not been scared of police in riot gear especially when you mix in groups who's very goal is police escalation such as the PIRA

PIRA? Is that a typo or is that a real group?

Did this guy ever go to the vaunted NHS? Seems like the article said he died later that evening... Was it at home, on the operating table, or in the waiting room?

Operating room, although the police and paramedics claim that the protesters inhibited his removal from the scene by paramedics.

PIRA? Is that a typo or is that a real group?

Provisional Irish Republican Army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army

Operating room, although the police and paramedics claim that the protesters inhibited his removal from the scene by paramedics.

They would say that.

They would say that.

Yes, they would. And there is some video of at least a few things being tossed at the paramedics that is linked to in one of the other threads.

PIRA? Is that a typo or is that a real group?

Provisional IRA. That's what most people mean when they say the IRA.

Yes, they would. And there is some video of at least a few things being tossed at the paramedics that is linked to in one of the other threads.

No there isn't. There's a video of one protester throwing a plastic bottle at a police stood near Ian Tomlinson.

Operating room, although the police and paramedics claim that the protesters inhibited his removal from the scene by paramedics.
Which also turned out to be a false claim if I remember correctly. I havent yet found the video of the arrival of the paramedics but it's out there...somwhere.
Ooh but a shiny article: http://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2009-04-05-g2-tomlinson.html

Provisional IRA. That's what most people mean when they say the IRA.

How do you know so much?

No there isn't. There's a video of one protester throwing a plastic bottle at a police stood near Ian Tomlinson.

Works for me. How do you expect people to respond when you throw things at them? To just carry on as always, or to slow down, watch their backs and not move as fast as they could.

No there isn't. There's a video of one protester throwing a plastic bottle at a police stood near Ian Tomlinson.
Have you got the video at hand? I remember finding it through the Guardian but didn't find anything there.

Which also turned out to be a false claim if I remember correctly. I havent yet found the video of the arrival of the paramedics but it's out there...somwhere.
Ooh but a shiny article: http://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2009-04-05-g2-tomlinson.html

From the greens. Biiiiiiig shock.

From the greens. Biiiiiiig shock.

You don't like the greens?

Have you got the video at hand? I remember finding it through the Guardian but didn't find anything there.

No, sorry mate. I only saw it on the telly.

How do you know so much?

I'm old enough to remember the IRA. Terrorist scum.

Or was it a link from Chumblywumbly?
Chumbly, I summon thee!
:hail:

You don't like the greens?

No, I'm not surprised that the greens would take that position.

You don't like the greens?

As a general rule, I never trust articles coming from any political party. They're inherently biased.

How do you know so much?

Are you being sarcastic?

As a general rule, I never trust articles coming from any political party. They're inherently biased.

Especially when they're whiny leftists.

As a general rule, I never trust articles coming from any political party. They're inherently biased.

And are likely to attempt to use any situation to their advantage.

I'm old enough to remember the IRA. Terrorist scum.
I can't really remember anything those shitheads did. They have been active in my life, but I can't actually remember anything except the ones this year.
Are you being sarcastic?
Nah, lol. He does knovv ouite abit about stuff that no one cares aout.

for the past 40-odd years protesters have certainly not been scared of police in riot gear especially when you mix in groups who's very goal is police escalation such as the PIRA

I don,t believe you.

Things like the Black Block (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc) tactics that were used in settings ranging from Seattle to Toronto to Rostock. Even well before, in the 1770's these sorts of tactics were used to create incidents in Boston (such as the "Massacre") to be used for propaganda or to incite the populace. There's literature describing and supporting its use, and it's the sort of thing that gave us Kettling in response.

I see. Your single wikipedia article shows me that this is widespread and a standard tactic at most demonstrations.:rolleyes:

How many do you need? 'Cos I can find 'em

p82 of Fighting for Ireland

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bCy9m-_RQoMC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=provoking+the+police+into+overreacting&source=bl&ots=m77PzVrVYF&sig=ZfpM5GPwqbEyNHD5ElsQvrcKwu8&hl=en&ei=2djoSY_wCIrLjAe3p4ifCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

"But McCann says the strategy of some local activists was "to provoke the police into over reaction" and this was easily achieved."

http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/Sunday_Times/arts2008/oct5_how_phoenix_lit_flames__LClarke.php

Both of those links have just one quote from one personwhose opinion it is that the activists were doing waht you claim. I have yet to see any evidence that this occurs in a significany number of protests.

Operating room, although the police and paramedics claim that the protesters inhibited his removal from the scene by paramedics.

I thought he died at the demo.

Yes, they would. And there is some video of at least a few things being tossed at the paramedics that is linked to in one of the other threads.

No. There is no video. Someone claimed there was and Chumblywumbly asked for a link. No one ever posted one.

...Both of those links have just one quote from one personwhose opinion it is that the activists were doing waht you claim. I have yet to see any evidence that this occurs in a significany number of protests...

On the New Left, we were experts at instant organisation: there was no conflict that could not be orchestrated for political advantage.

And the object was always to show that the capitalist government — and especially its police force — were the true oppressors. We were sent off to demonstrations with instructions to provoke the police into as violent a response as possible — in the presence of as many cameras as possible. The Grosvenor Square demo against the Vietnam war was a spectacularly successful instance of this.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article559869.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article559869.ece

Ahem...

I see. Your single editorial shows me that this is widespread and a standard tactic at most demonstrations.

Ahem...

So someone saying they applied this tactic at a number of demonstrations doesn't convince you that this tactic at a number of demonstrations? Fine I give up.

So someone saying they applied this tactic at a number of demonstrations doesn't convince you that this tactic at a number of demonstrations? Fine I give up.

I'm sorry, but uncorroborated claims by someone who is expressing their opinion do not count as evidence. Especially when it is obviously hyperbole.

I'm sorry, but uncorroborated claims by someone who is expressing their opinion do not count as evidence. Especially when it is obviously hyperbole.

I don't know what hyperbole you're talking about, the article seems very balanced. Especially these lines:

"(the worst terrorist atrocity committed on mainland Britain in modern history)"

"How is it that one wrongful death committed mistakenly by our security forces can obliterate coverage of the greater number of deaths committed intentionally by people openly dedicated to destroying our society?"

I'm old enough to remember the IRA. Terrorist scum.

Ahahahaha.....

I don,t believe you.

you don't believe in the troubles O_o

you don't believe in the troubles O_o

Apparently he doesn't believe anything, several people all saying the same thing apparently doesn't count as corroboration.

Apparently he doesn't believe anything, several people all claiming the same thing apparently doesn't count as corroboration.

I'm glad you're finally starting to understand what does not in fact count as proof.

you' know (I'm just going to throw this out there so bear with me) maybe the protesters should of been law abiding and peaceful

Wow. That was an abosolutly idiotic statement.

you don't believe in the troubles O_o

No.

I don't believe that IRA terrorist attacks are evidence that police baiting activities at protests are widespread.

Apparently he doesn't believe anything, several people all saying the same thing apparently doesn't count as corroboration.

Oh, did you provide evidence of several verifiable studies or news articles describing how widespread this is? Because I must have missed those sources.

I'm sorry, but uncorroborated claims by someone who is expressing their opinion do not count as evidence. Especially when it is obviously hyperbole.

While trying not to derail the thread into a discussion about truth, what would be sufficient evidence for you to believe this sort of assertion that 'people with an agenda have subverted protests'? Or is it the assertion that it is widespread that you find hard to believe?

While trying not to derail the thread into a discussion about truth, what would be sufficient evidence for you to believe this sort of assertion that 'people with an agenda have subverted protests'? Or is it the assertion that it is widespread that you find hard to believe?

The widespread part. I'm sure it happens every now and then. But in all my many years of protests, I have yet to see it. If you just wanted to get film of cops beating protestors, it's not really necessary to stage or even attempt to instigate the event. Ian Tomlinson shows us that such violence can be brought upon oneself merely by walking by a protest. Why go to the effort of trying to do more?

The widespread part. I'm sure it happens every now and then. But in all my many years of protests, I have yet to see it. If you just wanted to get film of cops beating protestors, it's not really necessary to stage or even attempt to instigate the event. Ian Tomlinson shows us that such violence can be brought upon oneself merely by walking by a protest. Why go to the effort of trying to do more?

Well, I suppose there are some people that want to make sure such an event happens, and make sure it happens on (their / the press's) camera.

It seems logical that this would happen more on big protests, as it's easier to lose yourself in the crowd, and the situation can be more tense and prone to mob mentality. Plus they are more likely to on the news anyway in the first place. I don't have a hard time thinking most big protests have a small contingent that want to make trouble (even if it's just wanting to have a fight or smash something up), and care nothing about the actual protest. Much like in many football crowds.

The widespread part. I'm sure it happens every now and then. But in all my many years of protests, I have yet to see it. If you just wanted to get film of cops beating protestors, it's not really necessary to stage or even attempt to instigate the event. Ian Tomlinson shows us that such violence can be brought upon oneself merely by walking by a protest. Why go to the effort of trying to do more?

How many of your many years of protests have been in the UK? Perhaps you could tell us all about some of the tactics used without using any statements by people who took part or witnessed them?

Ahahahaha.....

I know you're in the IRA or whatever, Nodinia, but you can't deny that they were murderous bastards.

I know you're in the IRA or whatever, Nodinia, but you can't deny that they were murderous bastards.

In the IRA? Or just supports them?

I don't believe that IRA terrorist attacks are evidence that police baiting activities at protests are widespread.

Nor do you believe that people testifying to police bating activities are evidence that police baiting activities at protests are widespread. They certainly were in Northern Ireland. Look at Bloody Sunday for example.

"(the worst terrorist atrocity committed on mainland Britain in modern history)"

Except that's right though. No other terrorist attack on Britain has even come close to the scale of 7/7, at least in terms of casualties.

In the IRA? Or just supports them?

I'm not sure, but a while back he was talking about the IRA and used the word "we".

I'm not sure, but a while back he was talking about the IRA and used the word "we".

I hate those bastards.

I'm not sure, but a while back he was talking about the IRA and used the word "we".

Not in this thread he didn't.

The Jolt search function won't find a two letter word. But I looked at each page, and used my browser's search function.

Nodinia did not use the word "we" in this thread.

Quote, or retract please.

Not in this thread he didn't.

The Jolt search function won't find a two letter word. But I looked at each page, and used my browser's search function.

Nodinia did not use the word "we" in this thread.

Quote, or retract please.

I didn't mean in this thread. I'm talking about a couple of months ago.

I didn't mean in this thread. I'm talking about a couple of months ago.

The Jolt search function won't find a two letter word like "we."

I could search all of Nodinia's posts, using my browser's search function, back two months.

If I didn't find N to use the word "we" in reference to the IRA, I could bring it back up.

But you would probably say "well maybe more than two months."

Then it might be "well, maybe it was on some other forum"

Then it might be "oh, I remember. It was in an MSN message"

Let's cut to the chase. Quote, or retract.

Calling another poster a member of the IRA requires some real evidence.

The Jolt search function won't find a two letter word like "we."

I could search all of Nodinia's posts, using my browser's search function, back two months.

If I didn't find N to use the word "we" in reference to the IRA, I could bring it back up.

But you would probably say "well maybe more than two months."

Then it might be "well, maybe it was on some other forum"

Then it might be "oh, I remember. It was in an MSN message"

Let's cut to the chase. Quote, or retract.

Calling another poster a member of the IRA requires some real evidence.

He never said he was part of that shitty group.

Not in this thread he didn't.

The Jolt search function won't find a two letter word. But I looked at each page, and used my browser's search function.

Nodinia did not use the word "we" in this thread.

Quote, or retract please.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14581866#post14581866

This certainly makes it sound like he was/is.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14581866#post14581866

This certainly makes it sound like he was/is.

It does, but it may just mean he supports them. The use of "we" might just refer to those republican supporters.

He never said he was part of that shitty group.

Um, butt out please.

I think the IRA is pretty shitty too. That isn't the point in dispute.

=========

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14581866#post14581866

This certainly makes it sound like he was/is.

That was impressively quick. You either had it bookmarked/favourited or you remembered the thread.

Give me a minute to read the context please.

That was impressively quick. You either had it bookmarked/favourited or you remembered the thread.

Nope, just searched through his posts.

Um, butt out please.

I think the IRA is pretty shitty too. That isn't the point in dispute.

=========


It's the internet, you have no power over me whatsoever. Nor will you ever.

It's the internet, you have no power over me whatsoever. Nor will you ever.

Shh RoI, the grownups are talking.

Shh RoI, the grownups are talking.

"Petty grownups" might have been a better description.

"Petty grownups" might have been a better description.

Explain how we're being petty.

Explain how we're being petty.

Well, you argue over petty things, you say petty things like "the grownups are talking".

OK, I looked at the context.

I think "we" means Irish. That's all.

I find it quite plausible that one could hate the behaviour of British troops, yet not actively support the IRA.

Got anything else?

OK, I looked at the context.

I think "we" means Irish. That's all.

I find it quite plausible that one could hate the behaviour of British troops, yet not actively support the IRA.

Got anything else?

That's what I said, and you told me to but out.

"Petty grownups" might have been a better description.

I'm slow. I'm not just grown-up, I'm fucking old.

I would appreciate if you would give me five minutes at a time, to do the research which you whippersnappers apparently can do in the time it takes me to find and click the Submit Reply button.

If when my reply finally crawls onto your screen, it makes no sense to you until another three posters have patiently explained it to you ... there might be a reason for that.

I'm slow. I'm not just grown-up, I'm fucking old.

I would appreciate if you would give me five minutes at a time, to do the research which you whippersnappers apparently can do in the time it takes me to find and click the Submit Reply button.

If when my reply finally crawls onto your screen, it makes no sense to you until another three posters have patiently explained it to you ... there might be a reason for that.

Sorry, granddad. I didn't realise you were ancient. My apologies.

OK, I looked at the context.

I think "we" means Irish. That's all.

Seeing as Wanderjar had mentioned the PIRA, and Nodinia replied with "we", that's why I believe he was/is in the PIRA.

Well, you argue over petty things, you say petty things like "the grownups are talking".

And you're arguing over whether they're petty or not, which is even MORE petty. And if you argue against this, we'll be arguing over whether you're petty for arguing about whether NNLDI is petty or not, which is even pettier STILL. And then if you argue against that as well, we'll be even MORE.... ad infinitum.

And you're arguing over whether they're petty or not, which is even MORE petty. And if you argue against this, we'll be arguing over whether you're petty for arguing about whether NNLDI is petty or not, which is even pettier STILL. And then if you argue against that as well, we'll be even MORE.... ad infinitum.

Huh?

Seeing as Wanderjar had mentioned the PIRA, and Nodinia replied with "we", that's why I believe he was/is in the PIRA.

And you looked at the next post from Nodinia? This one:

Hmmmm, resisted for a few hundred years, won independence. Had "terrorist" campaign for few decades, "terrorists" now in coalition Government.

A lesson well learned.

... which appears to say that terrorism can achieve its political ends?

Still not conclusive.

To hate what the British did in NI, and to credit the IRA with winning a degree of independence ... is no more than partisanship. Preferring one side over the other. And in the second post, applauding the victory of (what I regard as) terrorists.

Freedom of speech. Not active terrorism (ie, being a member of the IRA.)

And for the record, I don't support an amnesty for those who committed crimes, simply because they are now part of a political process.

Huh?

Don't get distracted. Follow the quotes back to the thread British Forces return to Ireland. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14581866)

That is, if you want to discuss whether Nodinia is shitty IRA or not.

Don't get distracted. Follow the quotes back to the thread British Forces return to Ireland. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14581866)

That is, if you want to discuss whether Nodinia is shitty IRA or not.

I've already said, that NNLDI may have taken the comment out of context.

I think the fact that Wanderjar mentions teaching the PIRA a lesson, and then Nodinia repsonding with "I think we figured out shooting people that were face down on the ground was easy on our own" Is pretty conclusive evidence that we means the Provisional IRA.

I think the fact that Wanderjar mentions teaching the PIRA a lesson, and then Nodinia repsonding with "I think we figured out shooting people that were face down on the ground was easy on our own" Is pretty conclusive evidence that we means the Provisional IRA.

How does it?

I think the fact that Wanderjar mentions teaching the PIRA a lesson, and then Nodinia repsonding with "I think we figured out shooting people that were face down on the ground was easy on our own" Is pretty conclusive evidence that we means the Provisional IRA.

Uh-huh. Well, I disagree. I think he meant that British soldiers had done that, and it was common knowledge in Ireland (probably in all of Britain).

Here is another exchange from the same thread:

Gibraltar eh. The SAS got some really bad press for that, they got the right men, was the way they did it that got them criticised.
O that was one their far better known ones. Back in the north they did similiar, but with two eejits trying to rob a shop with a toy gun. Stood over one of them and put 13 rounds in him.

I'm for bed now.

I tried to find the origin of Nodinia's avatar. It appears with a google of West Belfast Mural but I couldn't find a street address or any explanation of what the shields along the bottom mean.

There are many excellent murals in Belfast it seems. One of them reads "Our revenge will be the laughter of our children."

I'm not sure what that means, but it kind of gets me.

There are many excellent murals in Belfast it seems. One of them reads "Our revenge will be the laughter of our children."


It's the Bobby Sands Mural. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bobby_sands_mural_in_belfast320.jpg)

I tried to find the origin of Nodinia's avatar. It appears with a google of West Belfast Mural but I couldn't find a street address or any explanation of what the shields along the bottom mean.

The shields bear the flags of the four provinces of Ireland: Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Ulster. It's a republican mural.

How many of your many years of protests have been in the UK? Perhaps you could tell us all about some of the tactics used without using any statements by people who took part or witnessed them?

What does any of this have to do with whether or not such tactics are widespread or occur in more than simply isolated cases?

Nor do you believe that people testifying to police bating activities are evidence that police baiting activities at protests are widespread. They certainly were in Northern Ireland. Look at Bloody Sunday for example.

You're right. I don't believe when one person of questionable veracity states in an obvioulsy biased piece about an isolated incident, it all of a sudden becomes evidence that such tactics are widespread.

It's called critical thinking.

If you think Bloody Sunday was an example, show me the evidence. I didn't make the claim, so I see no reason why I should have to go look for the evidence.