NationStates Jolt Archive

I am a fan of these sort of polls as it is interesting. I was surprised by my other poll, but this one is more general.

Ya live, ya die, ya rot.

Havn't got one, and I see no poll.

Ya live, ya die, ya rot.

Yep...when you're gone you're gone for good

I could use eternal life however to spend some time reducing my golf handicap

I am a fan of these sort of polls as it is interesting. I was surprised by my other poll, but this one is more general.

I do not believe that there is one.

I don't see any reason to believe in any kind of afterlife.

Cectic has put it better than I could:
http://cectic.com/comics/056.png (http://cectic.com/056.html)

I hope that we will be able to live forever* soon/in the future.

*: Through merging with nano-bots who take over and maintain our brain pathways,
amongst other bodily systems.

Beer volcano and stripper factory.

We may not know how it all actually works but thier is a spirit world.

Beer volcano and stripper factory.

Pastafarian?

Beer volcano and stripper factory.

Now I could get with that!:D

We may not know how it all actually works but thier is a spirit world.
I call it the internet :)
Pastafarian?
Among other things.
Now I could get with that!:D

Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

Apart from quoting Joni Mitchell, "We are stardust", I have no belief in an afterlife.

EDIT: And if there was some form of afterlife, it would be so totally different, so separated from our physical life, that I would hesitate to call it some continuation.

I don't believe in heaven or hell; rebirth, reincarnation or any of that. However, I am unsure about it and it may be possible that there is an afterlife in the form of a spiritual realm. Of all the possibilities, this makes sense to me. No one is punished; no one is brought back. Of course, I do realise that this is a silly notion, but it does make fiction writing for me amusing.

I don't see any reason to belief in any kind of afterlife.
I sometimes don't even see any reason to belief in life to begin with.

I believe we merge with conciousness. That we become part of an emptiness.

Among other things.


Ya got the gospel?

There's a Heaven where the hurts are healed, cares and fears no longer exist, and tears are forever wiped away. I believe that all but those who deliberately choose evil and never repent of it (Repent meaning to truly feel regret and remorse for what one has done, understand that one was wrong, and ask forgiveness for it) are bound for it, though not all may pass into the presence of God. What kind of existence is there, I don't know. I'll find out soon enough I imagine.

Ya got the gospel?

Indeedy. A fun read. I must fish it out again one of these days.

Indeedy. A fun read. I must fish it out again one of these days.

I've got 1 it's much more interesting than the bible.

I do not believe that there is one.

A poll, or an afterlife?

Cus one of 'em can be proven quite easily. :D

Ya live, ya die, ya rot.

Rather baldly put, but yeah, this ^^^

Rather baldly put, but yeah, this ^^^

Blunt is all I know.

I could never be sure, I suppose. I do not imagine our consciousness goes anywhere, despite how perfectly incredible it is to be self-aware. When one loses and eye, it is half darkness; when one loses two eyes, it is total darkness; when one loses all of one's sense, all ends--like sleep. But if humans have no "eternal consciousness", then why should they have any more rights than highly developed robots?

I could never be sure, I suppose. I do not imagine our consciousness goes anywhere, despite how perfectly incredible it is to be self-aware. When one loses and eye, it is half darkness; when one loses two eyes, it is total darkness; when one loses all of one's sense, all ends--like sleep. But if humans have no "eternal consciousness", then why should they have any more rights than highly developed robots?

Cos we created them, we are more intelligent than they are.

I could never be sure, I suppose. I do not imagine our consciousness goes anywhere, despite how perfectly incredible it is to be self-aware. When one loses and eye, it is half darkness; when one loses two eyes, it is total darkness; when one loses all of one's sense, all ends--like sleep.

I expect our consciousness goes to the same place the pictures go when you turn your TV off.

But if humans have no "eternal consciousness", then why should they have any more rights than highly developed robots?
Because we like having them and are in a position to grant them to ourselves.

When you're dead, you're done, aside from the final act of rotting in a pine box or being incinerated. I find it most hard to believe that your soul (not proven to exist) somehow flies through space-time into another dimension where punishments and rewards are meted out according to how you lived your life. Wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking.
But that's the best kind of thinking!:(

dead is dead.

Cos we created them, we are more intelligent than they are.

Supposing we are more intelligent? Should the robots still be denied basic human rights, once they reach a certain level of sophistication?

Supposing we are more intelligent? Should the robots still be denied basic human rights, once they reach a certain level of sophistication?

They're not human.

They're not human.

And therefore........what?

They're not human.

But they might be able to function with the equivalent awareness and intelligence of someone with an I.Q. of 60.

But they might be able to function with the equivalent awareness and intelligence of someone with an I.Q. of 60.

A German Shepeard has an IQ of 60. Any lower and a human is considered retarded.

A German Shepeard has an IQ of 60. Any lower and a human is considered retarded.

Even retarded humans have rights...Hell, even German Shepherds have rights and cannot be treated cruelly.

...A German Shepherd does not have an IQ of anywhere near 60. The only way it could even come within the same league would be in a specialised canine IQ test, in which case it would be significantly over 100, on average.

In any case, there's no reason to deny any theoretical AI robots any rights they desire. There's also no reason we couldn't build in blocks to prevent them from wanting rights in the first place. Much more convenient that way.

Even retarded humans have rights...Hell, even German Shepherds have rights and cannot be treated cruelly.

I know that, but they shouldn't have "human" rights, they should have robot rights. (is it rites or rights?) They are not "alive".

I know that, but they shouldn't have "human" rights, they should have robot rights. (is it rites or rights?) They are not "alive".

What kind of rights?

Please define "alive".

...A German Shepherd does not have an IQ of anywhere near 60. The only way it could even come within the same league would be in a specialised canine IQ test, in which case it would be significantly over 100, on average.

In any case, there's no reason to deny any theoretical AI robots any rights they desire. There's also no reason we couldn't build in blocks to prevent them from wanting rights in the first place. Much more convenient that way.

But would it be immoral to deny them rights?

What kind of rights?

Please define "alive".

1) less than us and animals
2) to respire, to move, to reproduce, ect.

But would it be immoral to deny them rights?

Not if they don't want the rights, no. Although if you can think a reason it would be immoral, that would be pretty awesome. At the moment I can only put my unease over such an action down to my ingrained belief in freedom and civil rights.

I know that, but they shouldn't have "human" rights, they should have robot rights. (is it rites or rights?) They are not "alive".

So what? How does not being alive invalidate their desire for rights?

1) less than us and animals

Why less than animals? if they were equivalent to retarded humans.

2) to respire, to move, to reproduce, ect.

The way they would make use of types of power is only mechanically different from how humans use oxygen.

They probably could move...unless we are talking about HAL.

They could conceivably build more of themselves.

Not if they don't want the rights, no.

There might have been plenty of 19th century women who did not want more rights.

Although if you can think a reason it would be immoral, that would be pretty awesome. At the moment I can only put my unease over such an action down to my ingrained belief in freedom and civil rights.

If it can move and feel, think and interact, why does deserve to be classified as an irrelevant entity? Why would it deserve fewer right than humans with whom it is equal in capability?

2) to respire, to move, to reproduce, ect.

I assume you mean the classic characteristics of life. Robots can't fit them all now, but they may be able to in the future. Would you accept granting them rights then?

All we are is dust in the wind..

There might have been plenty of 19th century women who did not want more rights.

True, but women are biologically almost identical to men. The idea of women craving power wasn't exactly a long shot - indeed, it had been well documented throughout history. Besides, we had no way to block the desire for rights among women, and in any case it would absolutely be immoral to apply that block without personal consent (which would probably not be given).

When working with the blank slate of an artificial mind, none of this applies.

If it can move and feel, think and interact, why does deserve to be classified as an irrelevant entity? Why would it deserve fewer right than humans with whom it is equal in capability?

The concept of "deserving" something is based in the context of the human psyche. We feel we deserve a reward for services rendered. Is that necessarily a given among robots? Not with the correct programming. By creating an intelligent mind we create an entire new set of ethics and morals to be employed.

So why not make those ethics overwhelmingly beneficial to humans? Why not make a robot which is satisfied only through the happiness of humans? Can that be said to be less moral than creating a machine in man's image?

All we are is dust in the wind..


Love that song.

I believe in life after death. I believe in the spirit body. It looks and acts very much like your bodies now. In the spirit body if you have lost any limbs they will still be present in the spirit body. The spirit body is a younger version of yourself. You can see the world as you do now. You can hear, interact to a degree. You can see people but they can't see you.

How instantaneous the whole process is, is somewhat of a mystery.


Question: How long did Christ stay on earth after His resurrection?

Answer: Christ stayed on earth forty days after His resurrection to show that He was truly risen from the dead, and to instruct His Apostles.

At some point you are called or get draw ino the light osrt of like tunnel made of light.

With regard to Heaven and Hell at some point afterwords you will be judged, you will be completely unable to tell a lie. Then the charges against you will be "read' and hopefully the outcome will be positive.

There are these vortex and there are several that lead to Heaven and to Hell and they are sometimes called gates.


I am told Hell is a very large pit approximately 1 mile in diameter. You feel tired and weak. The darkness that surrounds you is an inky black kind. You will see all kinds of strange creatures, some of them chained to the wall. These creatures are huge between 10 and 13 feet tall. The look scaly like a reptile but have human features.

True, but women are biologically almost identical to men. The idea of women craving power wasn't exactly a long shot - indeed, it had been well documented throughout history. Besides, we had no way to block the desire for rights among women, and in any case it would absolutely be immoral to apply that block without personal consent (which would probably not be given).

Many 19th Century women might have given consent.

When working with the blank slate of an artificial mind, none of this applies.

It depends upon how advanced one is making the mind.

The concept of "deserving" something is based in the context of the human psyche. We feel we deserve a reward for services rendered. Is that necessarily a given among robots? Not with the correct programming. By creating an intelligent mind we create an entire new set of ethics and morals to be employed.

So why not make those ethics overwhelmingly beneficial to humans? Why not make a robot which is satisfied only through the happiness of humans? Can that be said to be less moral than creating a machine in man's image?

Yes, it can be. It would be as moral as genetically engineering select children to make them only wish to serve.

Cectic has put it better than I could:
http://cectic.com/comics/056.png (http://cectic.com/056.html)

I wonder what is in knowing that a person believes in the idea of an afterlife that makes people think that they are not 'living life to the fullest'.

is there an afterlife? I believe so.

what is in that afterlife? who knows.

I wonder what is in knowing that a person believes in the idea of an afterlife that makes people think that they are not 'living life to the fullest'.

is there an afterlife? I believe so.

what is in that afterlife? who knows.

I sure do not consider fucking around with adrenaline to be "living life".

I sure do not consider fucking around with adrenaline to be "living life".

Well said. There are many way to enjoy life without risking it. The beauty of nature comes to mind. Exploring all sections of the great big beautiful world or just sit back on a crowded city street and watch it all unfold before your eyes.


We live in a time where you can:

Fly through the air without risking yourself too much

We can communicate with all type of devices with people on the other side of the world

Where just about everything is accessible with the right amount of effort and time

Well said. There are many way to enjoy life without risking it. The beauty of nature comes to mind. Exploring all sections of the great big beautiful world or just sit back on a crowded city street and watch it all unfold before your eyes.


We live in a time where you can:

Fly through the air without risking yourself too much

We can communicate with all type of devices with people on the other side of the world

Where just about everything is accessible with the right amount of effort and time

Or helping others.

I sure do not consider fucking around with adrenaline to be "living life".

me neither. but some do.

Or helping others.

Yeah that too I think when we lose that adolescence marvel at how wonderful thing are we start to grow old quickly.


Do not go gently in that good night, rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Supposing we are more intelligent? Should the robots still be denied basic human rights, once they reach a certain level of sophistication?

I'd suggest not building something like that in the first place.

I'd suggest not building something like that in the first place.

Do you fear such an entity?

http://www.wjbriggs.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/skynetlogo.gif

Do you fear such an entity?

http://www.wjbriggs.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/skynetlogo.gif

No. Though I wouldn't build some self aware self governing fuck off awesome killer combatz robot. But that's just common sense. It's an inherently dangerous activity.

The reason why I wouldn't want something like that built is the amount of hassle it would inevitably cause. If we construct something that arguably should or could have human rights, then there are inevitably going to be arguments about whether or not it should get them once built. (Probably tedious annoying ones which will cause no end of pointless drama and grief).

Then, once it is built, and say it does get it's human rights, do we have to keep on building, or do we just let the first ones expire and commit 'genocide'.

It's a fucking minefield no doubt. So I'd rather just avoid it by not doing it in the first place. Let us redefine progress...yada yada yada.

Still I expect sensible people like myself will have no say in the matter, so if it is possible, it's bound to happen anyway.

(The Brits launched Skynet a few years back. Fortunately it's not self referencing yet)

I expect our consciousness goes to the same place the pictures go when you turn your TV off...

Dave?

Do you fear such an entity?


Do you?
http://techlahore.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/summer-glau-sarah-connor-chronicles-1.jpg

Do you?
http://techlahore.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/summer-glau-sarah-connor-chronicles-1.jpg

I fear anything that has the potential of malfunctioning and tearing my limbs out of the sockets. Even if it does look like summer glau.

Didn't we learn from the Connecticut chimpanzee event.

I fear anything that has the potential of malfunctioning and tearing my limbs out of the sockets. Even if it does look like summer glau.

Didn't we learn from the Connecticut chimpanzee event.

so... you let the Wookie win? :D

Dave?

Just imagine debating it on NSG: "Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye."

I believe that after I die, I will go to Summerland where I will be with the Gods and Goddess, and I can stay as long as I want to, and I can be reincarnated if I want to.

A poll, or an afterlife?

Cus one of 'em can be proven quite easily. :D

At the time of my post, both...
Although I was referring to an afterlife.

Blunt is all I know.

*pokes RoI with a sharpened stick*
Now you know sharp as well...

I have no particular belief nor do I think about it. Really, no one can know, no one will know until it happens. It just causes uncalled for stress to worry about it.

I cant say for sure until I see it for myself...

But, until then, im going with no, which doesnt scare me, I look forward to eternal sleep, Although I prettymuch do that in real life as well, lol...

Ya live, ya die, ya rot.

"Ya live, ya die, a corpse rots", to be more accurate.

I am told Hell is a very large pit approximately 1 mile in diameter. You feel tired and weak. The darkness that surrounds you is an inky black kind. You will see all kinds of strange creatures, some of them chained to the wall. These creatures are huge between 10 and 13 feet tall. The look scaly like a reptile but have human features.

where did you get that?

Yes, there is an afterlife.

I am a fan of these sort of polls as it is interesting. I was surprised by my other poll, but this one is more general.
Unfortunately, these polls are only a reflection of NSG and are not truly representative of the real world. All you will find out from this poll is that there are more non-believers than believers here at NSG.

Unfortunately, these polls are only a reflection of NSG and are not truly representative of the real world. All you will find out from this poll is that there are more non-believers than believers here at NSG.

I think its as good a sample as any of the "internet culture"...

I think its as good a sample as any of the "internet culture"...
Not really. It's a good sample of NSG and its demographics, but given that the Internet covers the planet and is no longer the exclusive domain of just college students and techies (Or even English speakers)...

Unfortunately, these polls are only a reflection of NSG and are not truly representative of the real world. All you will find out from this poll is that there are more non-believers than believers here at NSG.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/World_religions_pie_chart.png

where did you get that?


Well I could say something wiseguy like I am a "Planewalker" but actually it comes from "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Wiese

I believe in heaven and hell and I know where I'm going and I'm loving that feeling. You can go where I'm going. Just send me a message and I will tell you how.

I believe in heaven and hell and I know where I'm going and I'm loving that feeling. You can go where I'm going. Just send me a message and I will tell you how.

Hell ain't any great shakes....

Hell ain't any great shakes....
I am not going to hell and anyway certainty feels good dude.

Of course theres an afterlife...you know how damned hard it is to fight it off!?

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/6-tips-to-safely-kill-zombie-projects.jpg

I am not going to hell and anyway certainty feels good dude.

"[C]ertainty" is not a good thing.

Well I could say something wiseguy like I am a "Planewalker" but actually it comes from "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Wiese
why believe him instead of someone like..... st. julian of norwich who had a vision that indicated that hell has no one in it?

who is he that you would take his word for what hell is like?

why believe him instead of someone like..... st. julian of norwich who had a vision that indicated that hell has no one in it?

who is he that you would take his word for what hell is like?

You can find him on Youtube if you are interested. His story seem fairly believable to me and a lot of scripture backs up what he says. I suppose you can make the claim he was just trying to get famous or just trying to sell books. From his account I can't find any reason to believe he was making the whole ordeal up.

To Hell And Back (part 1, part 2, and part 3)

I believe, when we die, we are ghosts for at most three days, then we cross over into heaven or other otherworldly realm. If we are a ghost for more than 3 days, we have unfinished business. Once our unfinished business is finished, then we cross over, and wait until it is our time to reincarnate into a new body, either here on Earth, or another planet entirely. We can live hundreds of lifetimes, and each lifetime, we learn and grow, until we gain enough wisdom and experience that we become one with whoever rules the cosmos.

General is obviously not a representative sample of the population. Surprise surprise.

I believe in reincarnation. There's a sum total of matter in the universe, why not a sum total of souls as well?

I believe in reincarnation. There's a sum total of matter in the universe, why not a sum total of souls as well?

Sort of the Tolstoy thing?

Do you believe the signals in our brains are the physical manifestations of our conciseness?

Sort of the Tolstoy thing?
Can't say I'm well-read enough to comment on that.
Do you believe the signals in our brains are the physical manifestations of our conciseness?
Pretty much.

Can't say I'm well-read enough to comment on that.

Pretty much what you are talking about; I think Alan Moore is writing a graphic novel which explores that.

Pretty much.

Do not the signals attenuate?

Do not the signals attenuate?
Don't your conscience and consciousness also do so over the years?

Personally, I hope Dante was accurate. :D

The reason why I wouldn't want something like that built is the amount of hassle it would inevitably cause. If we construct something that arguably should or could have human rights, then there are inevitably going to be arguments about whether or not it should get them once built. (Probably tedious annoying ones which will cause no end of pointless drama and grief).

The NSG "Aw Jeez, Not This Shit Again" topic of the future. :D


You can find him on Youtube if you are interested. His story seem fairly believable to me and a lot of scripture backs up what he says. I suppose you can make the claim he was just trying to get famous or just trying to sell books. From his account I can't find any reason to believe he was making the whole ordeal up.

To Hell And Back (part 1, part 2, and part 3)
So...you just decided to prefer him over the visions of the saints and Biblical prophets? The question remains: What makes you think his experience is more true than the saint's experience?

Don't your conscience and consciousness also do so over the years?

I believe a conscience is part of basic mental development. I do not think consciousness slowly decays, unless you are talking about the pangs of dotage. When an organ stops functioning, the body dies, and the brain ceases to run.

The brain is sort of like an electrical generator.

I'd like there to be reincarnation, but more likely than than not you'll end up making up part of a lovely chandelier in a church in the Czech Republic.

My own opinion: I voted unsure, but believe in an afterlife. I'm not sure that's 100% accurate, though. I am unsure about it -- I'm sure of that. ;) But I always stumble over the "after" in the word "afterlife."

See, it's like this: I believe in souls. I believe that the soul and the consciousness are essentially the same thing. I believe souls are immortal and last forever, though not always in the same form. To me, physical manifestation is little more than a container for the soul. It's like a suit of clothes, changeable, not that important. You lose one, you take on another of some kind. Or not. You remain spirit. Whatever.

I see death as a process of physical life/manifestation. But death does not affect or change the soul. It only affects the soul's container. The body dies. The soul does not. And if the soul is the self (see, "consciousness", above), then what is it that is dying? When I die, will I have died? Or will it actually be accurate, and not a euphemism, to say that I have "moved on"?

If so, then in a certain sense, there is no such thing as death. And if there is no such thing as death, then there can be no such thing as life after death. There can only be life. Continuous. With no interruptions, only changes.

Now, what about those changes? I am even more unsure about that, about what actually happens to us when we "die". I tend to view the universe as a continuous whole, much as I view life. I mean, that I don't think of "this world" and a "spirit world", etc, as being really separate from each other. I tend to default assume that, even if there are different places, they are all parts of the one and the same universe/multiverse/place/thing/whatever. The point is that I think we do and can do a lot of things and make choices about what we will do next after our current life/incarnation ends, and we may end up very far from where we started (or we may not), but none of that is something I think of as a "new life."

When each of my grandparents died (the most recent deaths in my family, though years ago), I thought of them not as "dying" but as "leaving." And all I could wish for them was that they would do better and have more fun in their next incarnation than they did in the ones they just vacated. To this day, I don't really think of them as dead, but just gone, not here.

I'm sure this makes no sense at all.

I'd like there to be reincarnation, but more likely than than not you'll end up making up part of a lovely chandelier in a church in the Czech Republic.
Why can't you do both? I think it would be kind of fun to be reincarnated and retain memories of your prior incarnations so you could go to that church and take pictures of your former bits and brag about them to your friends and co-workers. "What did you do on your vacation, Bob?" "I went to the Czech Republic to find myself. HAW!"

Can you imagine the one-upmanship that would spark? Who got which parts incorporated into the better decorative elements?

I would do that. I would be, like, "See that bone right there in the middle above the altar? That's MY femur, bitches!" :D

The NSG "Aw Jeez, Not This Shit Again" topic of the future. :D



So...you just decided to prefer him over the visions of the saints and Biblical prophets? The question remains: What makes you think his experience is more true than the saint's experience?

For me I believe it was the details which he shares about his experience. He gave a lot of descriptions about how large things were. The smell, the sounds, the dryness, the fear, the pain, and the horror. He told how massively powerful these creatures were, how the almost delighted in inflicting pain. Sounds pretty much like the real deal.

I have the book as well and I have watched him on YouTube and it seems pretty believable to me. I think hell is a very real place. I am doing whatever I can now to avoid going there.

Honestly, if Heavens means spending an eternity with Jerry Falwell, Ted Haggard, Billy and Frank Graham, The WBC, then maybe Hell won't be so bad.

General is obviously not a representative sample of the population. Surprise surprise.
No, no surprise at all.

For me I believe it was the details which he shares about his experience. He gave a lot of descriptions about how large things were. The smell, the sounds, the dryness, the fear, the pain, and the horror. He told how massively powerful these creatures were, how the almost delighted in inflicting pain. Sounds pretty much like the real deal.

I have the book as well and I have watched him on YouTube and it seems pretty believable to me. I think hell is a very real place. I am doing whatever I can now to avoid going there.
Dante gave a lot of detail, too. Why don't you believe what he said about Heaven and Hell was fact?

Is it that he had no scaly lizard creatures in The Divine Comedy?

Anybody can add sense-engaging detail to a story. What you said only reinforces that you opted for his account out of personal preference for his storytelling style.

For me I believe it was the details which he shares about his experience. He gave a lot of descriptions about how large things were. The smell, the sounds, the dryness, the fear, the pain, and the horror. He told how massively powerful these creatures were, how the almost delighted in inflicting pain. Sounds pretty much like the real deal.

I have the book as well and I have watched him on YouTube and it seems pretty believable to me. I think hell is a very real place. I am doing whatever I can now to avoid going there.
that doesnt make any sense eh?

where is this very real physical place supposed to be? jupiter?

do you think of heaven as a very real physical place too?

that doesnt make any sense eh?

where is this very real physical place supposed to be? jupiter?

do you think of heaven as a very real physical place too?
Hell = Hoboken, New Jersey. Everyone knows that (who has been to Hoboken).


(I'm teasing, of course, both TB and Hoboken.)

Yes, there is an afterlife.

Afterlife for common people. For posh people, there will be an après vie.

My afterlife is going to be filled with people mocking me for not believing in it.

"Hey guys, I'm going to the shop for a few beers"
"Oh sure you find it easy to believe that the shop is going to have beers, but not that this world would exist and have both shops and beers! Loser!"

It's going to be enough to make me try to end it all, which is going to cause me all sorts of problems in the second afterlife.

Dante gave a lot of detail, too. Why don't you believe what he said about Heaven and Hell was fact?

Is it that he had no scaly lizard creatures in The Divine Comedy?

Anybody can add sense-engaging detail to a story. What you said only reinforces that you opted for his account out of personal preference for his storytelling style.

Let's face it a lot of what we think of as Hell is from Dante and Milton. The Divine Comedy is a very good piece of literature.



"Through me the way into the suffering city,
Through me the way to eternal pain,
Through me the way that runs among the lost.
Justice urged on my artificer;
My maker was divine authority,
The highest wisdom and the primal love.
Before me nothing but eternal things were made,
And I endure eternally.
Abandon every hope, ye who enter here."



Damn that is some powerful imagery. It really is brilliant work. The one thing is Dante never claim to have actually visited Hell.

Milton writes about the fall of the Devil and what motivates him to do evil.

“Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.”

Again Milton never claims to have been there he just wrote about it. He lost two wives and a son. He was also fully blind when he wrote his masterpiece. So we can see what may of had him in a "bad mood".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Milton

After bearing him four children—Anne, Mary, John, and Deborah—Milton’s wife, Mary, died on 5 May 1652 from complications following Deborah's birth on 2 May. In June, John died at age 15 months; Milton’s daughters survived to adulthood, but he always had a strained relationship with them. On 12 November 1656, Milton remarried, this time to Katherine Woodcock. She died on 3 February 1658, less than four months after giving birth to their daughter, Katherine, who also died.


Bill Wiese on the other hand had pretty much everything going well for him and then a very strange event happened that changed his life. After his account you can see why. I might be a little freaked out if that were to happen to me.

Hell = Hoboken, New Jersey. Everyone knows that (who has been to Hoboken).


(I'm teasing, of course, both TB and Hoboken.)

Hoboken is getting better actually it has cleaned up a bit. I take the train through there everyday. Bars are much better now. Still could use some more work on clean up but what can you do it is pretty much a railyard.

that doesnt make any sense eh?

where is this very real physical place supposed to be? jupiter?

do you think of heaven as a very real physical place too?

Hell is supposedly in the middle of the earth. Every account I have every heard of make the same claim. That and the Bible seems to say something similar. Also there supposed non-canon documents such as...

"And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see the light. (Book of Enoch 10:4-7)



Heaven is a little more tricky. There have been several people who mention the "Great White Tunnel Of Light". However everything is cloudy but they feel warm and loved. You do not get a sense of what it looks like, sounds like...I believe it is a real place.

I am not going to hell and anyway certainty feels good dude.

Unless it turns out that you've been worshipping Yahweh* wrong...

* assuming that Yahweh exists solely for the sake of this post

Bill Wiese on the other hand had pretty much everything going well for him and then a very strange event happened that changed his life. After his account you can see why. I might be a little freaked out if that were to happen to me.

Bill Wiese is a fucking liar.

Hell is supposedly in the middle of the earth. Every account I have every heard of make the same claim. That and the Bible seems to say something similar. Also there supposed non-canon documents such as...

"And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see the light. (Book of Enoch 10:4-7)

So if we dig down far enough into the Earth would we find Hell?

So if we dig down far enough into the Earth would we find Hell?

Likely not because there is no reason to dig down that far. I guess it would better say that Hell is a real place but metaphysically created.

Likely not because there is no reason to dig down that far.

To discover Hell is a good enough reason for me.

To discover Hell is a good enough reason for me.

How could you? Isn't it too hot? And aren't there magnetic forces and blah blah science nonsense?

"Through me the way into the suffering city,
Through me the way to eternal pain,
Through me the way that runs among the lost.
Justice urged on my artificer;
My maker was divine authority,
The highest wisdom and the primal love.
Before me nothing but eternal things were made,
And I endure eternally.
Abandon every hope, ye who enter here."


Let's see if my memory still works.

"Per me si va ne la città dolente,
per me si va ne l'etterno dolore,
per me si va tra la perduta gente.
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore:
fecemi la divina potestate,
la somma sapienza e il primo amore.
Avanti a me non fur cose create,
Se non etterne, e io etterno duro.
Lasciate ogni speranza, o voi ch'intrate!"

Um...WHUT?! TB, you have said some wild stuff on this forum, but, man, I think you've topped yourself today.

Hell is supposedly in the middle of the earth.
Frodo is Satan?! I KNEW it!! Never trusted that smarmy little shrimp.

Every account I have every heard of make the same claim.
Every account you have "heard of"? Not every account you have actually heard with your own ears, though? So you're going on rumors of what stories say? So that would be...what? That Weise guy and...the Left Behind books maybe...and some stuff that some other people told you they read somewhere?

That and the Bible seems to say something similar.
You're not sure? Don't you know what the Bible says about Hell?

Also there supposed non-canon documents such as...

Ah, right..."non-canon". That's another term for stuff somebody made up that no church gives any credence to, right? You know, like that Weise guy and the Left Behind books.

Likely not because there is no reason to dig down that far.
No one could find Hell because there's no reason for them to try? Seriously?

I guess it would better say that Hell is a real place but metaphysically created.
Hedging your bets now, eh -- just in case someone does decide they've got a reason to start excavating?

You know what I would bet on? I'd bet that Hell is 100% metaphysical, and everything else, including the S&M club for lizard people at the center of the planet, is all just fairy tales.

How could you? Isn't it too hot? And aren't there magnetic forces and blah blah science nonsense?
What? Science? Bah! The Devil just made that science shit up to discourage people from digging through his roof. I've heard that somebody read that somewhere once, and there's even a chance some of the canon might be interpretable to seem similar, too. So that cinches it.

TB, my beliefs include things that other people almost certainly dismiss as some crazy-ass shit. Whatever, you know? We each have to find our own way through life. We're all entitled to believe as we please. But really, if you're going to claim factuality for your beliefs, you are really going to have to do better than all this "heard of", "seems to", not really canon, etc, stuff. Seriously.

I don't *know* what will happen. I suspect nothing.

I suspect that as preception of external stimuli begins to be cut off at the moment of death, the perception of time stretches and the last moments of life can last considerably longer from the perception of they dying; perhaps even indefinitely. This new perception becomes a reality shaped by your life experiences and lived by you through the lens of your subconscious.

What this amounts to is that those that believe in Heaven or Hell and believe they are destined to one or the other end up exactly where they know in their subconscious that they deserve to be. Those that believe in other forms of afterlife experience that afterlife as shaped by their experiences, beliefs and self-image. Those that believe there is nothing after death experience nothing. Hopefully a brief nothing and not an extended nothing because that would kind of suck.

I further suspect that my own afterlife will probably look a bit like a giant carnival in a lake of mud. :)

Hell is supposedly in the middle of the earth. Every account I have every heard of make the same claim. That and the Bible seems to say something similar. Also there supposed non-canon documents such as...

"And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see the light. (Book of Enoch 10:4-7)



Heaven is a little more tricky. There have been several people who mention the "Great White Tunnel Of Light". However everything is cloudy but they feel warm and loved. You do not get a sense of what it looks like, sounds like...I believe it is a real place.
yes but do YOU believe that hell exists in the center of the earth? do YOU believe in a physical place called hell? where is it?

To discover Hell is a good enough reason for me.

I did an RP once; it never really got started, but the premise involved a The Core-like mission through Hell. Might have been fun. :D

Let's see if my memory still works.

"Per me si va ne la città dolente,
per me si va ne l'etterno dolore,
per me si va tra la perduta gente.
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore:
fecemi la divina potestate,
la somma sapienza e il primo amore.
Avanti a me non fur cose create,
Se non etterne, e io etterno duro.
Lasciate ogni speranza, o voi ch'intrate!"

Nicely done. Hats off.

Um...WHUT?! TB, you have said some wild stuff on this forum, but, man, I think you've topped yourself today.

Yeah weird is kind of my thing. Yes I know I am kind of out there.



Frodo is Satan?! I KNEW it!! Never trusted that smarmy little shrimp.


Middle of the Earth, not MiddleEarth. Sauron on the other hand now we are getting closer.


Every account you have "heard of"? Not every account you have actually heard with your own ears, though? So you're going on rumors of what stories say? So that would be...what? That Weise guy and...the Left Behind books maybe...and some stuff that some other people told you they read somewhere?

I have heard them with my own ears on Youtube close enough. Do I have a first hand account. No I am probably the biggest cosmic lodestone in the country. No physic power, no ability to predict, no ghosts, and no spirits. However I do not dismiss account outright which is what I think you need in an investigator.


You're not sure? Don't you know what the Bible says about Hell?

Well the do not give you map to get there or anything but yes it is mentioned often in fact some would say there are more descriptions of Hell than other stuff. However they seem to be preoccupied with what gets you to go there.


Ah, right..."non-canon". That's another term for stuff somebody made up that no church gives any credence to, right? You know, like that Weise guy and the Left Behind books.

Some other church do accept the works. The catholic church does not. Likely because it came from Ethiopia. Left behind seems to be fiction. With regard to Weise he could just come out and make it a story a sell way more books however he claims the account are real. The Exorcist and The Omen series all have way more following. It all comes down to believability. Does the account seem believable? It does to me but maybe I too easily accept these things.


No one could find Hell because there's no reason for them to try? Seriously?

Sure we have only a fraction of the way into the Earths crust. The deepest mines on go down a small bit of the way. Not to mention the cost would be astronomical.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/11/071106-africa-mine.html

The Gold Fields Ltd company intends to set a new record by drilling down 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) at its Driefontein mine, about 37 miles (60 kilometers) southwest of Johannesburg. An estimated 8.5 million ounces (240 million grams) of gold is thought to lie at such depths. (See a map of South Africa.)


Hedging your bets now, eh -- just in case someone does decide they've got a reason to start excavating?

There would be some type of separation between our world and theirs. Even if we did dig down that low it is not likely you would hear screams or see any spooky shadows.


You know what I would bet on? I'd bet that Hell is 100% metaphysical, and everything else, including the S&M club for lizard people at the center of the planet, is all just fairy tales.

Yes I am just interested in how things work. I would agree with you that Hell is mostly metaphysical however I think there has to be a "Gateway" to ours


What? Science? Bah! The Devil just made that science shit up to discourage people from digging through his roof. I've heard that somebody read that somewhere once, and there's even a chance some of the canon might be interpretable to seem similar, too. So that cinches it.

What make you think he is confined there in the first place. He was Cherubim. I think he knows the way to Earth. He says so in Job and many other places. You can't tempt people if you have no access.


TB, my beliefs include things that other people almost certainly dismiss as some crazy-ass shit. Whatever, you know? We each have to find our own way through life. We're all entitled to believe as we please. But really, if you're going to claim factuality for your beliefs, you are really going to have to do better than all this "heard of", "seems to", not really canon, etc, stuff. Seriously.

I believe in keeping an open mind. I don't mind being called crazy.

life after life after life, all different enough to all be fun. each on different worlds, of which there are nearly infinite. mostly as the dominant sentient on each of them. with maybe some kind of spirit r&r place inbetween. maybe not.

Well the do not give you map to get there or anything but yes it is mentioned often in fact some would say there are more descriptions of Hell than other stuff. However they seem to be preoccupied with what gets you to go there.
So the Bible does not actually say that Hell is in the middle of the planet, then?

Some other church do accept the works. The catholic church does not. Likely because it came from Ethiopia.
What? What came from Ethiopia? The works, which you somehow change from plural to singular? If so, which work(s)? Or the Catholic Church. If so, that would be news to me.

Left behind seems to be fiction. With regard to Weise he could just come out and make it a story a sell way more books however he claims the account are real. The Exorcist and The Omen series all have way more following. It all comes down to believability. Does the account seem believable? It does to me but maybe I too easily accept these things.
Left Behind IS fiction. Doesn't just "seem like." IS. Ask the authors.

Same with The Omen. Pure fiction. Nothing in it ever happened.

The Exorcist claims to be based on a real exorcism case, but the account is sensationalized.

I think you do indeed accept things too easily.

Sure we have only a fraction of the way into the Earths crust. The deepest mines on go down a small bit of the way. Not to mention the cost would be astronomical.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/11/071106-africa-mine.html

The Gold Fields Ltd company intends to set a new record by drilling down 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) at its Driefontein mine, about 37 miles (60 kilometers) southwest of Johannesburg. An estimated 8.5 million ounces (240 million grams) of gold is thought to lie at such depths. (See a map of South Africa.)

You're kidding, right?


There would be some type of separation between our world and theirs. Even if we did dig down that low it is not likely you would hear screams or see any spooky shadows.



Yes I am just interested in how things work. I would agree with you that Hell is mostly metaphysical however I think there has to be a "Gateway" to ours
You've got it all figured out, huh?

What make you think he is confined there in the first place. He was Cherubim. I think he knows the way to Earth. He says so in Job and many other places. You can't tempt people if you have no access.
Who said anything about being confined? Are you confined to your house? Just because you can go in and out, does that mean you want people digging through your roof?

Seriously, if you took that remark of mine literally -- or even seriously -- then you really do accept things too easily.


I believe in keeping an open mind. I don't mind being called crazy.

Skepticsm =/= a closed mind. Skepticism allows an open mind to sort through all the things it is open to, not just give everything the same stamp of acceptance/approval, regardless of what it is.

There is a difference between acknowledging that a work of fiction is a good representation of a religious concept and believing that the work of fiction is real.

For example, I consider Neil Gaiman's novel American Gods to be the best representation of an animistic worldview/spiritual experience that I have read outside of the diaries of shamans. But that does not make American Gods a holy text, nor does it mean that anything in it is real. It is a work of literary art that expresses an idea that happens to resonate with my religion. Just like, say, The Omen is a work of fiction, literary art, that expresses an idea found within Christian belief. That does not make it true, the way history is true. Nor does it make it a true account of a personal spiritual experience of the author.

I expect our consciousness goes to the same place the pictures go when you turn your TV off.

What? Continues to travel off into space?

To quote one of my favorite songs:

Jesus finished the work he resurrected on High
that means he beat death and best believe so will I
see some believe they can fly but I believe I can die
resurrect leave the earth and live forever with God
He will march through the sky while the stars sing his praises
the planets dance around and the universe is amazed
and me I get to gaze upon his beauty for days
man if I could be anything baby I'd be a saint

So the Bible does not actually say that Hell is in the middle of the planet, then?

It seem to imply that it is in the Earth but never really says where. So you are correct.


What? What came from Ethiopia? The works, which you somehow change from plural to singular? If so, which work(s)? Or the Catholic Church. If so, that would be news to me.

The reason I said works is because it is several chapters. Enoch is the one who talks about the "Watcher" Angels. The books were found in Ethiopia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

While this book today is non-canonical in most Christian Churches, it was explicitly quoted[2]:8 in the New Testament (Letter of Jude 1:14-15) and by many of the early Church Fathers. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical.

He is the one who talks about the "Watcher" Angels


Left Behind IS fiction. Doesn't just "seem like." IS. Ask the authors.

Same with The Omen. Pure fiction. Nothing in it ever happened.

The Exorcist claims to be based on a real exorcism case, but the account is sensationalized.

I think you do indeed accept things too easily.

I agree, no argument from me.


You're kidding, right?


You've got it all figured out, huh?

I wish I had it all figured out.



Who said anything about being confined? Are you confined to your house? Just because you can go in and out, does that mean you want people digging through your roof?

Seriously, if you took that remark of mine literally -- or even seriously -- then you really do accept things too easily.

That is likely true.


Skepticism =/= a closed mind. Skepticism allows an open mind to sort through all the things it is open to, not just give everything the same stamp of acceptance/approval, regardless of what it is.

There is a difference between acknowledging that a work of fiction is a good representation of a religious concept and believing that the work of fiction is real.

For example, I consider Neil Gaiman's novel American Gods to be the best representation of an animistic worldview/spiritual experience that I have read outside of the diaries of shamans. But that does not make American Gods a holy text, nor does it mean that anything in it is real. It is a work of literary art that expresses an idea that happens to resonate with my religion. Just like, say, The Omen is a work of fiction, literary art, that expresses an idea found within Christian belief. That does not make it true, the way history is true. Nor does it make it a true account of a personal spiritual experience of the author.

I agree, the Omen did have a lot of religious quotes, symbolism, and artwork on how the Rise of the Anti-Christ might come about. I really "liked" Omen 2, where he first came of age. I was freaked out for weeks afterwords. The scene with the crows, yaaaah. Wow, I can think of nothing scarier than waking up one day with the realization that you are doomed and not only that but you are the cause of many other people's doom too.

Skepticism is healthy and to be expected. I don't think I made the claim that I personally verified these events. I was just putting forward as something to discuss. I like this subject and have read a lot of stuff. It was purely for my own amusement. I do enjoy discussing stuff with you. You have a very sharp mind and are quick to see weakness in arguments of which I have very many.

I will look up the American Gods it sounds very interesting. Animistic beliefs do seem very popular lately. It kind of reminds me of the "Force" from Star Wars before they screwed it up with Midi-chlorians.

It seem to imply that it is in the Earth but never really says where. So you are correct.



The reason I said works is because it is several chapters. Enoch is the one who talks about the "Watcher" Angels. The books were found in Ethiopia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

While this book today is non-canonical in most Christian Churches, it was explicitly quoted[2]:8 in the New Testament (Letter of Jude 1:14-15) and by many of the early Church Fathers. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical.

He is the one who talks about the "Watcher" Angels

Which church do you follow?

I'm just wondering because I always thought the Christian churches kind of like to maintain their own doctrines and are not so much into the mixing and matching.


I agree, no argument from me.



I wish I had it all figured out.




That is likely true.



I agree, the Omen did have a lot of religious quotes, symbolism, and artwork on how the Rise of the Anti-Christ might come about. I really "liked" Omen 2, where he first came of age. I was freaked out for weeks afterwords. The scene with the crows, yaaaah. Wow, I can think of nothing scarier than waking up one day with the realization that you are doomed and not only that but you are the cause of many other people's doom too.

Skepticism is healthy and to be expected. I don't think I made the claim that I personally verified these events. I was just putting forward as something to discuss. I like this subject and have read a lot of stuff. It was purely for my own amusement. I do enjoy discussing stuff with you. You have a very sharp mind and are quick to see weakness in arguments of which I have very many.

I will look up the American Gods it sounds very interesting. Animistic beliefs do seem very popular lately. It kind of reminds me of the "Force" from Star Wars before they screwed it up with Midi-chlorians.
It's a good book.

Also, animistic beliefs have always been popular. Many cultural historians and religion scholars believe it to be the oldest form of religion in the world. Many people engage in animistic thinking without even realizing they are doing it, and the mindset of it permeates countless cultures and other religions (even Catholicism), probably just because it has likely been with us for over 10,000 years -- so it's kind of a habit. But yes, recently, recognizable animistic concepts have been getting more of the pop culture spotlight. I think this is due to the current relative instability within the major Abrahamic religions at the moment, and to the popularity of entertainment from Japan. Japanese Shinto, which is the official state religion, is also one of the foundations of Japanese culture and practiced by a good portion of the population. Shintoist beliefs, along with syncretized Buddhist beliefs, are prominent in manga, anime, movies, and much of Japanese art. As those things have gained in popularity outside of Japan, the presence of animistic imagery and ideas has, by default, become more widespread as well.

EDIT: Pop entertainment from Korea has this kind of stuff in it, too. Korean culture is, possibly, even more strongly animistic than the Japanese.

It's a good book.
One of Gaiman's best.

I'd second your recommendation

Which church do you follow?

I'm just wondering because I always thought the Christian churches kind of like to maintain their own doctrines and are not so much into the mixing and matching.



It's a good book.

Also, animistic beliefs have always been popular. Many cultural historians and religion scholars believe it to be the oldest form of religion in the world. Many people engage in animistic thinking without even realizing they are doing it, and the mindset of it permeates countless cultures and other religions (even Catholicism), probably just because it has likely been with us for over 10,000 years -- so it's kind of a habit. But yes, recently, recognizable animistic concepts have been getting more of the pop culture spotlight. I think this is due to the current relative instability within the major Abrahamic religions at the moment, and to the popularity of entertainment from Japan. Japanese Shinto, which is the official state religion, is also one of the foundations of Japanese culture and practiced by a good portion of the population. Shintoist beliefs, along with syncretized Buddhist beliefs, are prominent in manga, anime, movies, and much of Japanese art. As those things have gained in popularity outside of Japan, the presence of animistic imagery and ideas has, by default, become more widespread as well.

EDIT: Pop entertainment from Korea has this kind of stuff in it, too. Korean culture is, possibly, even more strongly animistic than the Japanese.

I'm catholic. I was raised protestant. I became catholic through marriage. So one could say I am mixed up to say the least.

I will look up the American Gods it sounds very interesting. Animistic beliefs do seem very popular lately. It kind of reminds me of the "Force" from Star Wars before they screwed it up with Midi-chlorians.

I have read American Gods, and I don't find it "animistic" at all. If anything, it's a multi-pantheon polytheistic story.

I have read American Gods, and I don't find it "animistic" at all. If anything, it's a multi-pantheon polytheistic story.

Yes, it is that, but the kind of experience/journey the hero goes on, the way he interacts with the gods in the story, the way the gods are "transferred" from the old country to the US via immigration, the way the lifestyle/culture of the US generates new gods, all that is very animistic. I doubt (I don't know if) Gaiman had any intention in that direction at all. It just worked out that way.

I have read American Gods, and I don't find it "animistic" at all. If anything, it's a multi-pantheon polytheistic story.
The new gods, the ones referred to in the title of the book, are very animistic; spirits of Americana and US features, etc.

The new gods, the ones referred to in the title of the book, are very animistic; spirits of Americana and US features, etc.

Yes, but as I read it, they were depicted as actual gods, not just spirits, and as having as their domains (to use D&D terminology) things like modern technological developments. I may be wrong on this but that's how it read to me.

Other characters were actual gods from Norse, Germanic, Russian and other pantheons.

Yes, but as I read it, they were depicted as actual gods, not just spirits, and as having as their domains (to use D&D terminology) things like modern technological developments. I may be wrong on this but that's how it read to me.
Perhaps, though the distinction between 'gods' and 'spirits' is admittedly vague.

I seem to remember, for example, the internet being an embodied spirit in the novel.

But, meh.

Yes, but as I read it, they were depicted as actual gods, not just spirits, and as having as their domains (to use D&D terminology) things like modern technological developments. I may be wrong on this but that's how it read to me.

Other characters were actual gods from Norse, Germanic, Russian and other pantheons.

Perhaps, though the distinction between 'gods' and 'spirits' is admittedly vague.

I seem to remember, for example, the internet being an embodied spirit in the novel.

But, meh.
these spoilers should help tighten up the pages on NSG.....sorta environmentally friendly. :D

Yes, but as I read it, they were depicted as actual gods, not just spirits, and as having as their domains (to use D&D terminology) things like modern technological developments. I may be wrong on this but that's how it read to me.

Other characters were actual gods from Norse, Germanic, Russian and other pantheons.

Perhaps, though the distinction between 'gods' and 'spirits' is admittedly vague.

I seem to remember, for example, the internet being an embodied spirit in the novel.

But, meh.

The distinction in animist religions is notoriously vague. Gods often seem to be pretty much supercharged spirits, when they are included at all. Animists tend to treat all that sort of being the same. I was more talking about the way the story was structured and the way the main character interacted with the various gods.