NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30210535/

Seems to be the right decision.
discuss. Right Wrong ?

They couldn't make a conviction stick on this alleged 'war criminal' in an Israeli court. I think that barring a massive change in evidence, this man is being harassed.

They couldn't make a conviction stick on this alleged 'war criminal' in an Israeli court. I think that barring a massive change in evidence, this man is being harassed.

I agree. I think the US should tell the German government to worry about current issues.

It's a news story of events so I would be more interested in the evidence of his crimes.

If they have photos of him doing things or people can identify him, etc. Deport his ass!

One of my great-uncles was involved with liberating a couple camps. What he saw messed him up. Never said much about it but did say it justified the death of every German he killed.

It's a news story of events so I would be more interested in the evidence of his crimes.

If they have photos of him doing things or people can identify him, etc. Deport his ass!

One of my great-uncles was involved with liberating a couple camps. What he saw messed him up. Never said much about it but did say it justified the death of every German he killed.

To be honest the courts should rule this double Jeopardy and refuse to send him to trial regardless. I think the major reason for wanting the trial now is most of the witnesses who said he was not the guy involved with the murders are now dead.

This man deserves to be hanged.

This man deserves to be hanged.

Why?

They couldn't make a conviction stick on this alleged 'war criminal' in an Israeli court. I think that barring a massive change in evidence, this man is being harassed.

Yet his citizenship was revoked when it was discovered that he lied about his time at Sobibor. Either there's enough evidence to extradite him, or there isn't enough evidence to strip him of citizenship, but it shouldn't go both ways.

I have a feeling the accusation of being a Nazi doesnt get thrown around lightly.

To be honest the courts should rule this double Jeopardy and refuse to send him to trial regardless. I think the major reason for wanting the trial now is most of the witnesses who said he was not the guy involved with the murders are now dead.

I am hardly a legal expert but if it he was judged and a ruling was given; then you are correct.

Then what if new evicdence was discovered that showed he was involved?

I am hardly a legal expert but if it he was judged and a ruling was given; then you are correct.

Then what if new evicdence was discovered that showed he was involved?

He was already tried. And found innocent. Just because he is accused of something you didn't like does not mean you can ignore the rule of law.

He was already tried. And found innocent. Just because he is accused of something you didn't like does not mean you can ignore the rule of law.

Actually, he was found guilty and then the verdict was overturned on appeal. I think it amounts to the same thing though.

Actually, he was found guilty and then the verdict was overturned on appeal. I think it amounts to the same thing though.

I was summarizing.

Actually, he was found guilty and then the verdict was overturned on appeal. I think it amounts to the same thing though.

Israel tried him for being Ivan the Terrible, which he was not. Germany afaik is not trying him for the crimes of Ivan the Terrible, but for crimes they believe he committed as a death camp guard.

Needless to say, there appears to be enough evidence for the U.S. courts to revoke his citizenship for lying about his past.

Israel tried him for being Ivan the Terrible, which he was not. Germany afaik is not trying him for the crimes of Ivan the Terrible, but for crimes they believe he committed as a death camp guard.

Ivan the terrible was a guard who worked the diesel engine that produced Carbon monoxide to kill Jews.
The Germans simply dropped the name Ivan the terrible in their accusation.


Needless to say, there appears to be enough evidence for the U.S. courts to revoke his citizenship for lying about his past.

Okay remove his citizenship still no reason to allow the deportation.

If he wasn't a camp guard, then deporting him is a serious miscarriage of justice, to say the least.

If he was a camp guard, then he's probably going to die before any trial is completed, or shortly thereafter. In this case, the sad fact is, he got away with it for 60+ years, and there's little purpose in going through yet another trial now. He'll face judgment from a higher authority soon enough.

Either way, IMO the case should be stayed until nature takes its course.

They couldn't make a conviction stick on this alleged 'war criminal' in an Israeli court. I think that barring a massive change in evidence, this man is being harassed.
The Germans claim to have compelling evidence at hand. Would they have launched a case against him if they didn't think they had sufficient evidence?

Then last November, state prosecutors in Munich, where Mr Demjanjuk lived briefly after the war, said they had enough evidence to prove his involvement in the murders of 29,000 Jews at Sobibor between March and September 1943.

They said they had managed "to obtain hundreds of documents and also found a number of witnesses who spoke out against Demjanjuk".

"For the first time we have even found lists of names of the people who Demjanjuk personally led into the gas chambers. We have no doubt that he is responsible for the death of over 29,000 Jews", said Kurt Schrimm, head of the special office investigating Nazi crimes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7998947.stm

I agree. I think the US should tell the German government to worry about current issues.
So... After the US government have been pushing to deport him from the US for at least 7 years, they should now - suddenly - tell the Germans to leave well enough alone?

You are aware that the US tried to send him to Ukraine despite the fact that Ukraine said they wouldn't accept him? I doubt you'll get the US to suddenly change their minds on this one - and it's silly of you to try to blame the Germans for something here.

If he wasn't a camp guard, then deporting him is a serious miscarriage of justice, to say the least.

If he was a camp guard, then he's probably going to die before any trial is completed, or shortly thereafter. In this case, the sad fact is, he got away with it for 60+ years, and there's little purpose in going through yet another trial now. He'll face judgment from a higher authority soon enough.

Either way, IMO the case should be stayed until nature takes its course.
Wow. Lenient all of a sudden, are we? Must be because he's got the right skin colour and not the wrong faith.

To be honest the courts should rule this double Jeopardy and refuse to send him to trial regardless. I think the major reason for wanting the trial now is most of the witnesses who said he was not the guy involved with the murders are now dead.

This, as have been said several times in the previous thread on this man, has got nothing to do with double jeopardy.

He was found not guilty of murders and war crimes at Treblinka. Now he's charged with murder and war crimes at Sobibor.

Your stance is like saying that because you're found not guilty of murder in New York, you can't be charged due to a different murder in Los Angelses because that would be "double jeopardy". It's flat out wrong.

The Germans claim to have compelling evidence at hand. Would they have launched a case against him if they didn't think they had sufficient evidence?

If it is so strong they should forward that evidence to the country where the crimes took place Poland. Or to the country that the suspect has Citizenship at the time of the alleged crimes the Ukraine. And that's provided the charges are different enough not to rule out double jeopardy.



So... After the US government have been pushing to deport him from the US for at least 7 years, they should now - suddenly - tell the Germans to leave well enough alone?

We shouldn't Deport him to begin with. More over we should not deport him to a country that wishes to put him on trial. especially because the right of jurisdiction is weak. If the Ukraine, Poland, or Israel feel there is no need to try him what need is there for the Germans to try him ?


You are aware that the US tried to send him to Ukraine despite the fact that Ukraine said they wouldn't accept him? I doubt you'll get the US to suddenly change their minds on this one - and it's silly of you to try to blame the Germans for something here.

Yes, he was born there since we stripped his citizenship by a judge.
Blame the Germans for wanting to try and old man already acquitted once, yeah I do a bit silly to request to extradite him.

If it is so strong they should forward that evidence to the country where the crimes took place Poland. Or to the country that the suspect has Citizenship at the time of the alleged crimes the Ukraine. And that's provided the charges are different enough not to rule out double jeopardy.


We shouldn't Deport him to begin with. More over we should not deport him to a country that wishes to put him on trial. especially because the right of jurisdiction is weak. If the Ukraine, Poland, or Israel feel there is no need to try him what need is there for the Germans to try him ?

Yes, he was born there since we stripped his citizenship by a judge.
Blame the Germans for wanting to try and old man already acquitted once, yeah I do a bit silly to request to extradite him.

Wait, the German government did not request Demjanjuk's extradition, but the government of the United Stated did order his deportation. This is something entirely different.

Deportation to the Ukraine did seem to be impossible as it could not be granted that he would not be tortured there. As a result the US government decided to deport him to Germany.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6202319.stm
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/01/appeals_court_rules_against_de.html

So if you want to blame anybody, blame the US administration for wanting to get rid of an old man and not the German for announcing that he will be charged for crimes illegal under German law as everybody else also would be.

If it is so strong they should forward that evidence to the country where the crimes took place Poland. Or to the country that the suspect has Citizenship at the time of the alleged crimes the Ukraine.
Why?

And that's provided the charges are different enough not to rule out double jeopardy.
Show me that double jeopardy rule would be a factor here. You haven't been able to do that before...


We shouldn't Deport him to begin with.
Why not? His citizenship has been revoked because he lied. Should he be allowed to stay in the US regardless? On what grounds?

More over we should not deport him to a country that wishes to put him on trial.
Why not? Should a possible war criminal not face justice?

especially because the right of jurisdiction is weak.
How is it "weak"? It's stronger than when Israel got him extradited.

If the Ukraine, Poland, or Israel feel there is no need to try him what need is there for the Germans to try him ?
Where did you get that they feel there is "no need" to try him? Are you making stuff up as you go?

Yes, he was born there since we stripped his citizenship by a judge.
Blame the Germans for wanting to try and old man already acquitted once, yeah I do a bit silly to request to extradite him.
*Sigh*

Aquitted once for different crimes.

You are aware that if you're aquitted in a court of law, it's not a permanent status, right? That you can't go out and go on a crime spree without fear of prosecution because you were "aquitted once"?

One of my great-uncles was involved with liberating a couple camps. What he saw messed him up. Never said much about it but did say it justified the death of every German he killed.

Even those that had nothing to do with it?

We already had a thread on this a few weeks ago. He is being charged with different crimes.