NationStates Jolt Archive

Now I know some of you are thinking who on NSG should be going to jail. I'm sure some of you are guilty of something. But here is a local story from my area:





FEDERAL WAY, Wash., April 14 (UPI) -- A 14-year-old Seattle-area girl suspected of killing her newborn baby has been arrested and could be charged with second-degree murder.

The eighth-grader told police that she delivered the baby girl last week in her mother's bedroom in their home in Federal Way, the Seattle Times reported. She allegedly told police she was afraid her mother would hear the baby if she cried so she put a blanket over her face and held it until it stopped moving, according to court papers.

Prosecutors say she is likely to be charged as a juvenile with second-degree murder and would be held in a juvenile facility until the age of 21 if she is convicted.

The alleged father of the baby, Leonel Guzman-Jacobo, 20, has been charged with sexually assaulting the girl. Investigators say that they had been dating with permission from the girl's mother and began having a sexual relationship in September.

The mother came home and found blood around the apartment. She thought her daughter had suffered a miscarriage, but a friend found the baby's body while mother and daughter were at the hospital.


http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/04/14/Girl-14-allegedly-killed-newborn/UPI-23101239732587/


This is a messed up young girl. Who out of this story do you think should go to jail? The girl of 14? The illegal immigrant(reported in other news reports) 20 year old pedophile? The mother of the 14 year old? Give me your opinion on who should get what in this case. Discuss....

Good lord.

I think lots and lots of therapy would be more appropriate than jail....

This is completely fucked up.

Whoever decided that single mothers are bad people.

Now I know some of you are thinking who on NSG should be going to jail. I'm sure some of you are guilty of something. But here is a local story from my area:



http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/04/14/Girl-14-allegedly-killed-newborn/UPI-23101239732587/


This is a messed up young girl. Who out of this story do you think should go to jail? The girl of 14? The illegal immigrant(reported in other news reports) 20 year old pedophile? The mother of the 14 year old? Give me your opinion on who should get what in this case. Discuss....

Death penalty for the 'father'. Life imprisonment for the mother. The mother of the other mother. That one.

The girl needs a stay in a hospital, not a jail.

I don't see why jail is inappropriate for either one of them.

was the baby developed enough to survive? her mother thought she had a miscarriage so perhaps it was too small to live anyway. that would require extensive therapy.

if the baby could reasonably have survived then she should spend the next few years in juvie (preferably with therapy).

her boyfriend should go to jail.

her mom should be charged with something if she condoned statutory rape.

her mom should be charged with something if she condoned statutory rape.

It doesn't really work that way...

was the baby developed enough to survive? her mother thought she had a miscarriage so perhaps it was too small to live anyway. that would require extensive therapy.

if the baby could reasonably have survived then she should spend the next few years in juvie (preferably with therapy).

her boyfriend should go to jail.

her mom should be charged with something if she condoned statutory rape.

The baby was apparently alive when she gave birth. They are doing an autopsy and I suppose more will be released later. As of now I'm not sure if the baby was considered "healthy".

A poor decision on her part, which i can empathize with. Juvenile jail seems appropriate.

I don't see why jail is inappropriate for either one of them.

Perhaps the better question, in terms of the 14 year old, is: why is it appropriate?

What benefit does either she or society gain from sending her to jail?

Is there an alternate solution that brings benefit to both?

The alleged father of the baby, Leonel Guzman-Jacobo, 20

this could of all stopped here if someone had kicked his arse

The baby was apparently alive when she gave birth. They are doing an autopsy and I suppose more will be released later. As of now I'm not sure if the baby was considered "healthy".
its a critical point for me. you cant murder a baby that isnt going to survive no matter what you do. but if it had a good chance had she cried for help and had been able to take the baby to the hospital in quick time, then she murdered it no matter that she was a frightened 14 year old.

It doesn't really work that way...

Well in the state of Washington we may have something to charge the mother with. I was listening to a station on the radio today and they were talking of the King County prosecutor looking at what they could charge the 14 year old's mother with. Which means to me if they find something that will stick it will be done.

Well they would have to explain what permission means in this instance. Did the mother specifically say date my 14 year old daughter, did she just ignore warning signs, did the twenty year old ask the mother if they could date, etc

But the fourteen year old should get help then probably put into a juvenile center until she's 18/old enough to live on her own as for the murder charge, not really enough information. Why did she fear her mother hearing the baby? If the mother thought she had a miscarriage that makes it seem that she knew that the daughter was pregnant and I don't really get why the fourteen year old would feel the need to hold a blanket over the baby for the minute or more it probably took to smother the baby instead getting the mother...

Really not enough information to get a good idea if and whom should be charged.

As for the "father" charge him for having sex with an underaged girl, provided he actually did do the crime...

this could of all stopped here if someone had kicked his arse

What bothers me is why the mom consented to them dating. of course a 20 year old is going to and take advantage of a 14(maybe 13 at the time) girl.

this could of all stopped here if someone had kicked his arse

Or if this pedophile never illegally came to this country.

Or if this pedophile never illegally came to this country.

sigh whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty, wait this is the internet. Hang the sucker, screw a trial!

With a mother like this, I am able to believe that girl had no idea what she was doing. The mother on the other hand and the father of the baby have no such excuse. They should have known better. He knocked up a 14 year old. She thought she could give permission to knock up a 14 year old. Then failed to help her daughter to know what to do. I wonder what kind of home environment that girl was in where she would not only give birth anywhere but a hospital, but felt such a pressing need for her mother not to hear the baby's cries. I suspect the mother is a deeply fucked up person and if there's any hope for her daughter now, it lies in a buttload of therapy.

What bothers me is why the mom consented to them dating. of course a 20 year old is going to and take advantage of a 14(maybe 13 at the time) girl.

She was 13 when they started "dating". Is that the right term for a pedophile having sex with this woman's 13 year old daughter?

its a critical point for me. you cant murder a baby that isnt going to survive no matter what you do. but if it had a good chance had she cried for help and had been able to take the baby to the hospital in quick time, then she murdered it no matter that she was a frightened 14 year old.

Given truth in the statement that sexual relations started only in September then the baby is probably premature at least though possibly not so premature that it wouldn't survive.

I'm just, what's prison for in this case? Is it rehabilitation? Does she need to sincerely show that she won't be killing any more babies? Is she a threat to society? Is it a value judgement on the punishment she should receive, like the ultimate grounding?

I just don't see any value to be gained from sending her to jail.

Well they would have to explain what permission means in this instance. Did the mother specifically say date my 14 year old daughter, did she just ignore warning signs...

If the OP is accurate, the mother thought the daughter might have miscarried.

That would mean she would KNOW that her daughter was pregnant. The questions then arise, what sort of relationship was being fostered, and why was the daughter terrified her mother might hear the baby crying?

sigh whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty, wait this is the internet. Hang the sucker, screw a trial!

Excuse me, "Alledgedly". BTW he will be going to trial.

Or if this pedophile never illegally came to this country.

Estamos en tu pais, chingando tus jovencitas. :rolleyes:

This could also have been prevented if USian culture didn't view teenage pregnancy as some shameful and horrible thing.

But let's blame the wetbacks instead, shall we?

With a mother like this, I am able to believe that girl had no idea what she was doing.

She knew she was just likely convinced by the guy he could pull out or some such.

If the OP is accurate, the mother thought the daughter might have miscarried.

That would mean she would KNOW that her daughter was pregnant. The questions then arise, what sort of relationship was being fostered, and why was the daughter terrified her mother might hear the baby crying?

Right, this could be much more twisted than the initial story.

Estamos en tu pais, chingando tus jovencitas. :rolleyes:

This could also have been prevented if USian culture didn't view teenage pregnancy as some shameful and horrible thing.

But let's blame the wetbacks instead, shall we?

Don't pull the brown skin bullshit. This guy is a pedophile that should not be in this country. That's it. Doesn't matter if he is from Mexico or Russia. It really doesn't.

If the OP is accurate, the mother thought the daughter might have miscarried.

That would mean she would KNOW that her daughter was pregnant. The questions then arise, what sort of relationship was being fostered, and why was the daughter terrified her mother might hear the baby crying?
or it may have been the blood pouring from her vagina.

or it may have been the blood pouring from her vagina.

Probably the most likely scenario.

Don't pull the brown skin bullshit. This guy is a pedophile that should not be in this country. That's it. Doesn't matter if he is from Mexico or Russia. It really doesn't.

I really wouldn't feel much comfort in the pedophile being in another country. Seems to me that the problem here is the pedophilia and a fucked up mom, not their country of origin.

Don't pull the brown skin bullshit. This guy is a pedophile that should not be in this country. That's it. Doesn't matter if he is from Mexico or Russia. It really doesn't.

You're the one who keeps bringing up his ethnicity.

Please provide a source that provides evidence of your claim that the father is an illegal immigrant.

What bothers me is why the mom consented to them dating. of course a 20 year old is going to and take advantage of a 14(maybe 13 at the time) girl.

where is the father in all this anyway? and where was the school plus everyone else who could of noticed such odd stuff

or it may have been the blood pouring from her vagina.

She came home and found blood around the apartment.

Her first thought on the sight of blood, wasn't murder, injury, accident or even menstruation... but miscarriage.

So - what piece of data did she already HAVE to process with the sight of blood, to jump to that conclusion?

She came home and found blood around the apartment.

Her first thought on the sight of blood, wasn't murder, injury, accident or even menstruation... but miscarriage.

So - what piece of data did she already HAVE to process with the sight of blood, to jump to that conclusion?
that her daughter was dating a 20 year old.

I said he was illegal nothing about his ethnicity. You did.

As for him being an illegal it was reported on KIRO news radio.

http://hotfeeder.com/politics/prosecutor_dead_babys_father_mexican_illegal_alien_started_sex_with_girl_at_13_1632287

that her daughter was dating a 20 year old.

And, what?

Dating doesn't equal miscarriage. There's only one piece of data that fits perfectly.

In order to come to the conclusion of miscarriage, she has to have known her daughter was pregnant. If I walked into the house and found my blood everywhere, I wouldn't assume miscarriage.

where is the father in all this anyway? and where was the school plus everyone else who could of noticed such odd stuff

Maybe she kept quite about it and didn't mention dating a man to her friends.

And, what?

Dating doesn't equal miscarriage. There's only one piece of data that fits perfectly.

In order to come to the conclusion of miscarriage, she has to have known her daughter was pregnant. If I walked into the house and found my blood everywhere, I wouldn't assume miscarriage.
well i doubt that blood was .... on the walls where a gunshot may have put it.

the girl gave birth. it was that kind of blood. the mother isnt smart enough to keep her daughter away from a 20 year old but that doesnt mean she is stupid.

I said he was illegal nothing about his ethnicity. You did.

As for him being an illegal it was reported on KIRO news radio.

http://hotfeeder.com/politics/prosecutor_dead_babys_father_mexican_illegal_alien_started_sex_with_girl_at_13_1632287

That link is a reprint of this article:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/42857417.html

The only difference between the two articles is the headline. The headline from your link claims that the father is an illegal immigrant. The makers of that website apparently got the headline from here:

www.the-two-malcontents.com/2009/04/12/prosecutor-dead-babys-father-mexican-illegal-alien-started-sex-with-girl-at-13/[/url]

Please note that there is material on this blog that may be considered racist, so I did not provide a direct link. There is a link at the bottom of the page that Marrakech linked to, if you really want to look around.

By the way, KIRO does not mention the father's immigration status on their webpage discussing this crime:

http://www.kirotv.com/vj/19150695/detail.html#-

I would say that you have no real evidence that this man is an illegal immigrant.

This could also have been prevented if USian culture didn't view teenage pregnancy as some shameful and horrible thing.
True
But let's blame the wetbacks instead, shall we?
In this case I think its fairly safe to assume that the 'wetback' in question is a scumbag.

True

In this case I think its fairly safe to assume that the 'wetback' in question is a scumbag.

Yes. He is.

This could also have been prevented if USian culture didn't view teenage pregnancy as some shameful and horrible thing.


I agree that there is no benefit to be gained by shaming preggers teens, but teenage pregnancy should be strongly discouraged and efforts taken to reduce its occurrence (through comprehensive sex education, The Importance of Education PSAs, etc).

Also, do fire stations in Washington accept abandoned babies No Questions Asked?

The man is no pedophile. A 14 year old and a 20 year old isn't that awful. He has a Hispanic name, and at least throughout Mexico, marriage of females is traditionally rather young. The traditional coming-of-age celebration for girls, the Quinceañera, is held at the fifteenth birthday, after all. Statutory rape charges are often very cruel and unreasonable. We should be certain that actual manipulation, actual abuse took place before ruining this young man's life.

As for the girl, it would be insane to punish this confused young woman. It was a tragic pregnancy and it is terrible that resources were not made available to her earlier. We should not hold this against her, and she should not be thrown into a correctional facility for the rest of her teenage years. She needs love and attention to restore her faith in the society that has failed her.

Well the father is he is indeed the father, paternity tests are required first, and the mother.

The man is no pedophile. A 14 year old and a 20 year old isn't that awful.


Amusing. The second sentence appears to contradict the first.


He has a Hispanic name, and at least throughout Mexico, marriage of females is traditionally rather young.


Which matters, how? Where do you think you saw 'marriage' mentioned?


The traditional coming-of-age celebration for girls, the Quinceañera, is held at the fifteenth birthday,


Which matters, how? Where do you think it said the girl was 15?


after all. Statutory rape charges are often very cruel and unreasonable.


If you don't want the punishment for statutory rape, don't fuck little girls.

It's really not that hard.

That link is a reprint of this article:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/42857417.html

The only difference between the two articles is the headline. The headline from your link claims that the father is an illegal immigrant. The makers of that website apparently got the headline from here:

www.the-two-malcontents.com/2009/04/12/prosecutor-dead-babys-father-mexican-illegal-alien-started-sex-with-girl-at-13/[/url]

Please note that there is material on this blog that may be considered racist, so I did not provide a direct link. There is a link at the bottom of the page that Marrakech linked to, if you really want to look around.

By the way, KIRO does not mention the father's immigration status on their webpage discussing this crime:

http://www.kirotv.com/vj/19150695/detail.html#-

I would say that you have no real evidence that this man is an illegal immigrant.

They stated it in the news updates on the radio. That was not in print and was talked about. I'm guessing I could link 4 different sources and you wouldn't be happy.

They stated it in the news updates on the radio. That was not in print and was talked about. I'm guessing I could link 4 different sources and you wouldn't be happy.

No. A single one that isn't a racist blog would be nice.

A single news article isn't too much to ask, is it?

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/709608.html

This one mentions that he is from Mexico. It also mentions the charges brought against him. No mention of any charges resulting from being in the country illegally.

Probably because he isn't an illegal immigrant.

its a critical point for me. you cant murder a baby that isnt going to survive no matter what you do.
Of course you can, just as you can murder a terminally ill person.

Simply because an individual is certain to die in the future, doesn't stop killing them now from being murder.


Her first thought on the sight of blood, wasn't murder, injury, accident or even menstruation... but miscarriage.
Your proof of that being...?


Or if this pedophile...
And you know he's a paedophile because...?

Yes, the girl was under-age, but this doesn't necessarily mean that the boyfriend was a paedophile, i.e., someone sexually attracted to children. A 13/14-year-old girl can look very much like a sexually-mature teen.

Though, obviously, this does not condone the boyfriend's actions.

Of course you can, just as you can murder a terminally ill person.

Simply because an individual is certain to die in the future, doesn't stop killing them now from being murder.

i dont think so.

would it be murder to poke a miscarried embryo with a stick?

if the baby was too unformed to survive then putting a blanket over its face did not cause it to die.

i dont think so.

would it be murder to poke a miscarried embryo with a stick?

if the baby was too unformed to survive then putting a blanket over its face did not cause it to die.

What sort of blanket are we talking about?
Did she clear the babies airways fully or did she interrupt the baby in the process of doing that?

if the baby was too unformed to survive then putting a blanket over its face did not cause it to die.
It may have.

Even if the baby would not have survived, if the blanket caused death through asphyxiation, even in conjunction with it's not fully-formed organs, then we can ascribe cause of death to the smothering. (Whether this poor girl should be criminally charged, however, is another matter.)

Going back to my example of the terminally ill patient, if my grandmother is dying of inoperable cancer, and I giver her a massive dose of morphine which allows her to die painlessly, it would be odd to assert that it was the cancer alone that caused her death. She may only have been given the morphine because of the cancer, but, from a technical point of view, the morphine killed her.

Your proof of that being...?


Reading the article.

Reading the article.
The article says, "She thought her daughter had suffered a miscarriage", but that doesn't say what the women first thought, or whether she talked to her daughter, etc.

You're basing the women's motivations or knowledge on one vague line in a brief article.

It may have.

Even if the baby would not have survived, if the blanket caused death through asphyxiation, even in conjunction with it's not fully-formed organs, then we can ascribe cause of death to the smothering. (Whether this poor girl should be criminally charged, however, is another matter.)

Going back to my example of the terminally ill patient, if my grandmother is dying of inoperable cancer, and I giver her a massive dose of morphine which allows her to die painlessly, it would be odd to assert that it was the cancer alone that caused her death. She may only have been given the morphine because of the cancer, but, from a technical point of view, the morphine killed her.
yes but your grandmother is a born person while an premature baby may just be a miscarriage that survived a short time before it expired as was inevitable.

The article says, "She thought her daughter had suffered a miscarriage", but that doesn't say what the women first thought, or whether she talked to her daughter, etc.

You're basing the women's motivations or knowledge on one vague line in a brief article.

The article says "The mother came home and found blood around the apartment. She thought her daughter had suffered a miscarriage, but a friend found the baby's body while mother and daughter were at the hospital."

She came home and found blood. No mention of the daughter - so it's not like we're basing this on her seeing a girl with blood running from between her legs. THEN, the next thing it says is'she thought her daughter had suffered a miscarriage'.

There is no indication of anything else - which means anything you want to add to the article is pure extrapolation.

What we KNOW (if the article is reliable), is that she came home, found blood everywhere, and assumed miscarriage.

Which, logically, leads to the conclusion she must have known her daughter was pregnant.

its a critical point for me. you cant murder a baby that isnt going to survive no matter what you do. but if it had a good chance had she cried for help and had been able to take the baby to the hospital in quick time, then she murdered it no matter that she was a frightened 14 year old.
the baby would be at least 1 month premature

considering she was afraid the mother would hear the baby cry would mean that the baby was healthy or at least had a high servival percentage.

If the OP is accurate, the mother thought the daughter might have miscarried.

That would mean she would KNOW that her daughter was pregnant. The questions then arise, what sort of relationship was being fostered, and why was the daughter terrified her mother might hear the baby crying?

and what fightens me is that the daughter didn't know what to do... including calling 911. that indicates to me that the daughter was not prepared for the birth.

yes but your grandmother is a born person while an premature baby may just be a miscarriage that survived a short time before it expired as was inevitable.
Ahh, perhaps I've misunderstood you.

It's possible that the baby died of natural defects, though there's also the possibility that it was killed by it's mother.


The article says "The mother came home and found blood around the apartment. She thought her daughter had suffered a miscarriage, but a friend found the baby's body while mother and daughter were at the hospital."
Quite.

But you said (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14701339#post14701339) "[the mother's] first thought on the sight of blood, wasn't murder, injury, accident or even menstruation... but miscarriage", which isn't indicated by the above.

She may have instantly thought of miscarriage, she may have known about the pregnancy, but she may have talked to/observed her daughter and put two and two together... the article doesn't indicate either way as it doesn't give a clear run-down of events. And it certainly doesn't show that she would know without a shadow of a doubt, prior to the event, that her daughter was pregnant.

As I said, that's just speculation. Accurate speculation, perhaps, but with the limited information available to us, speculation nonetheless.