NationStates Jolt Archive

While he's not going nearly as far as I'd like him to (i.e., restoring full diplomatic relations, ending the embargo, this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090413/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_cuba) isn't too bad a start. Hopefully Cuba-U.S. relations will continue to thaw, and eventually we can put the bad old days behind us once and for all.

And yes, I copied the thread title from the article, but that's only because I couldn't think of something better.

Thoughts? (On the article, not the title.)

It's still pants.

A two week visit every 3 years limited to immediate family? Land of the free indeed.

soon all the novelty and smugness of me visiting Cuba will be gone :(

The embargo never worked if its goal was to remove Castro from power. The Cuban people have always been firmly behind him, and continued to support him even as the economic (and sometimes military, see the Bay of Pigs) war we waged resulted in immense suffering for the Cuban people.

I am glad we are finally setting aside this childishness and beginning to act like adults in the community of nations. It is cruel not to allow people to see their families.

Hopefully we will have some student exchanges in the near future. The Cuban healthcare system is great, as Michael Moore's film demonstrated, and nothing could help dispel Cold War myths like genuinely learning from the advances made by other nations.

I like it.

The one thing which seemed unclear was if this just applied to people with relatives in Cuba, or to all Americans. Basically, what am I, as an American citizen with no links to Cuba, permitted to do?

im wondering if its in his power to rescind the whole cuban embargo thing or if he could only undo what bush did while he was in office and the rest has to be done by congress.

I like it.

The one thing which seemed unclear was if this just applied to people with relatives in Cuba, or to all Americans. Basically, what am I, as an American citizen with no links to Cuba, permitted to do?
family only

I know some people (not Americans, mind; New Zealanders) who went on holiday to Cuba once. I think you have to fly there out of El Salvador or Venezuela or somewhere like that.

I've always thought that the fastest way to get Castro out of power would be to drop the embargo and let Cuba experience the full power of this armed and fully operational battlesta ... erm, economy. Partially operational economy right now. The American economy managed to bring down the USSR and infiltrate China from within, and Cuba is teensy. Victory is assured!

I've always thought that the fastest way to get Castro out of power would be to drop the embargo and let Cuba experience the full power of this armed and fully operational battlesta ... erm, economy. Partially operational economy right now. The American economy managed to bring down the USSR and infiltrate China from within, and Cuba is teensy. Victory is assured!

I thought that was rock and roll? what we need are horrendous 80's power ballads!

im wondering if its in his power to rescind the whole cuban embargo thing or if he could only undo what bush did while he was in office and the rest has to be done by congress.

It was undo able by executive order alone until 1992.
In 1992 Democracy act was passed.
Putting conditions of Cuba Reforming its government and economy for trade.

I know some people (not Americans, mind; New Zealanders) who went on holiday to Cuba once. I think you have to fly there out of El Salvador or Venezuela or somewhere like that.

I've always thought that the fastest way to get Castro out of power would be to drop the embargo and let Cuba experience the full power of this armed and fully operational battlesta ... erm, economy. Partially operational economy right now. The American economy managed to bring down the USSR and infiltrate China from within, and Cuba is teensy. Victory is assured!

Americans could always go through Canada in the past. Just hop a flight of maple syrup to Havana.

Americans could always go through Canada in the past. Just hop a flight of maple syrup to Havana.

Yeah and the Cubans instead of stamping your passport stable a piece of paper to your passport and stamp the visa there. Then you can remove the Piece of paper and there will be no evidence as long as you paid for the ticket in Cash.

Yeah and the Cubans instead of stamping your passport stable a piece of paper to your passport and stamp the visa there. Then you can remove the Piece of paper and there will be no evidence as long as you paid for the ticket in Cash.

Aye, that works. You sound like a good friend of mine. Always thinking of the way around. :tongue:

Aye, that works. You sound like a good friend of mine. Always thinking of the way around. :tongue:

Cuba is a non extradition/non disclosure country with very stable banks.
Hot beaches and hotter women cant hurt either.

Cuba is a non extradition/non disclosure country with very stable banks.
Hot beaches and hotter women cant hurt either.

True, a lot of potential babies momma's there. However I don't think Cuban banks can be used for regular banking. Maybe a quiet place to store excess capital though.

Damn it. Long live the embargo!

True, a lot of potential babies momma's there. However I don't think Cuban banks can be used for regular banking. Maybe a quiet place to store excess capital though.

They will hold and pay interest on Euros. And since they have adopted a economy depended on European tourism They wont cease the accounts or even run a tax on the interest. you would have to live there of course to use as a normal bank. No one in the states take checks based from a bank in Havana.

soon all the novelty and smugness of me visiting Cuba will be gone :(
You'll always have the illegitimate son that you fathered with a 16-year old prostitute. Well, you won't actually have him, because he's still in Cuba and you're not and you don't pay child support or legally acknowledge him in any way, but at least you know he's there.

Sooooo, say I've been sending money and bullion to Cuba for years. This new act will mean that was all okay, right? Right?

Sounds fair.

Fucking finally.

I thought that was rock and roll? what we need are horrendous 80's power ballads!

And blue jeans.

I mean, for godsakes, the ROK's have built the world's largest pair on the border with the DPRK. The ultimate weapon!

Damn it. Long live the embargo!

Hahaha, it won't! :D

Hahaha, it won't! :D

Alas and alack for cigar quality :(

Sooooo, say I've been sending money and bullion to Cuba for years. This new act will mean that was all okay, right? Right?

Depends. Funding Castro Regime. Still wrong, just putting a rounding error on your taxes in a bank because you might retire there is ok.

Its a start.

I know some people (not Americans, mind; New Zealanders) who went on holiday to Cuba once. I think you have to fly there out of El Salvador or Venezuela or somewhere like that.

Or Toronto.

Wait wait wait. The embargo will work just give it more time! It's will work in maybe 100 years! Maybe.....

Where is the change?

Wait wait wait. The embargo will work just give it more time! It's will work in maybe 100 years! Maybe.....

What are you talking about, it's working perfectly. Slowly but surely, Fidel Castro's life is leaving him, just as we planned. Maybe the exploding cigar would have been faster, but we'll take what we can get.

As it is related I will post this same post on the "Obama allowing travel, money transfers to Cuba" thread. lol, Where to begin. While it would be nice to visit family in Cuba as many times a year as we wish despite the restrictions now lifted Cuban Americans send Cuban American family remittances $ upto $1200 a year, care packages and visited every so years.

Cuban family remittances $ are charged a 20 % to 30 % surcharge in the exchange rate. Exchanged for CUC Pesos $, Cuban Convertible Pesos $. Our families in Cuba are then allowed to buy $ many products in so called government dollar $ stores at high prices $ in a currency they do not earn $. A form of ranson $ or blackmail, so they can live a little better Cuban Style. Change we can believe in.

As Cubans in Cuba should be paid in CUP Pesos $ and buy all products in CUP Pesos $ thier national currency.

Dont blame the evil American embargo, the Cuban government trades with many nations of the world, has economic, political and or social relations with almost every nation in the world if not all, including limited relations with the USA, buys agricultural products from the USA on a cash basis $ what it lacks are American loans $ and credits $.

2,348,460 tourist guests visited Cuba in 2008, mostly Canadians and Europeans as well as some Americans.

I guess now the democratic Cuban government of Fidel and Raul for life, will release all Cuban political prisoners within Cuba not exile. Not demand the release of its five revolutionary heroes in exchange for the Cuban political prisoners along with thier entire families to Miami or other parts of the USA, change we can believe in.

Will now allow freedoms of the press and assembly. Allow multi political party elections to the Cuban National Assembly Parliment, change I can believe in, Change you can believe in, change President Obama can believe in, Change we can all believe in, read my Sig.

Recently a family member of mine emigrated legally from Cuba. The family as am I are helping him out financially $ until he gets settled on his own.

His family still in Cuba, my family too, wishes to also emigrate from that sane democratic socialist island paradise many-some of you praise so much that has relations with the entire world.

I happen to have at least 2 former Cuban political prisoner family members that for family reasons I cant post thier names. I happen to have 2 family members who are part of the privileged governing elite, mid level I would say but known. As far as I am concerned they are not family as I am sure they consider me the same way, yet for family reasons I cant post thier names.

The Cuban government proclaims to the world it is a government for life, it is the most democratic government in the world, has Committes for the Defense of the Revolution, Cuban Americans are called the hardline intransigent ones, Cuban American Miami Mafia members, escoria scum, gusano worms by the Cuban government and many of its allies, but send us your Cuban American family remittances $. has relations with every government leader in the world, then most of you not all wonder why those crazy Cuban Americans like myself say and do the darnest things, feel the way they feel, most of you not all dont call us crazy Cuban Americans for nothing. That is why we are crazy Cuban Americans.
__________________
lol.

As it is related I will post this same post on the "Obama allowing travel, money transfers to Cuba" thread. lol, Where to begin. While it would be nice to visit family in Cuba as many times a year as we wish despite the restrictions now lifted Cuban Americans send Cuban American family remittances $ upto $1200 a year, care packages and visited every so years.

Cuban family remittances $ are charged a 20 % to 30 % surcharge in the exchange rate. Exchanged for CUC Pesos $, Cuban Convertible Pesos $. Our families in Cuba are then allowed to buy $ many products in so called government dollar $ stores at high prices $ in a currency they do not earn $. A form of ranson $ or blackmail, so they can live a little better Cuban Style. Change we can believe in.

As Cubans in Cuba should be paid in CUP Pesos $ and buy all products in CUP Pesos $ thier national currency.

Dont blame the evil American embargo, the Cuban government trades with many nations of the world, has economic, political and or social relations with almost every nation in the world if not all, including limited relations with the USA, buys agricultural products from the USA on a cash basis $ what it lacks are American loans $ and credits $.

2,348,460 tourist guests visited Cuba in 2008, mostly Canadians and Europeans as well as some Americans.

I guess now the democratic Cuban government of Fidel and Raul for life, will release all Cuban political prisoners within Cuba not exile. Not demand the release of its five revolutionary heroes in exchange for the Cuban political prisoners along with thier entire families to Miami or other parts of the USA, change we can believe in.

Will now allow freedoms of the press and assembly. Allow multi political party elections to the Cuban National Assembly Parliment, change I can believe in, Change you can believe in, change President Obama can believe in, Change we can all believe in, read my Sig.

Recently a family member of mine emigrated legally from Cuba. The family as am I are helping him out financially $ until he gets settled on his own.

His family still in Cuba, my family too, wishes to also emigrate from that sane democratic socialist island paradise many-some of you praise so much that has relations with the entire world.

I happen to have at least 2 former Cuban political prisoner family members that for family reasons I cant post thier names. I happen to have 2 family members who are part of the privileged governing elite, mid level I would say but known. As far as I am concerned they are not family as I am sure they consider me the same way, yet for family reasons I cant post thier names.

The Cuban government proclaims to the world it is a government for life, it is the most democratic government in the world, has Committes for the Defense of the Revolution, Cuban Americans are called the hardline intransigent ones, Cuban American Miami Mafia members, escoria scum, gusano worms by the Cuban government and many of its allies, but send us your Cuban American family remittances $. has relations with every government leader in the world, then most of you not all wonder why those crazy Cuban Americans like myself say and do the darnest things, feel the way they feel, most of you not all dont call us crazy Cuban Americans for nothing. That is why we are crazy Cuban Americans.
__________________
lol.



What?

What are you talking about, it's working perfectly. Slowly but surely, Fidel Castro's life is leaving him, just as we planned. Maybe the exploding cigar would have been faster, but we'll take what we can get.

As has economic, political and social relations of the world worked with the democratic Cuban government for life of Fidel and Raul perhaps in a 100 years.

Exploding cigars or not, forget the exploding cigars.

TRVE, do you not believe my post is as I say it is?

Do others of you not believe my post is as I say it is?

As has economic, political and social relations of the world worked with the democratic Cuban government for life of Fidel and Raul perhaps in a 100 years.

So you admit that the US embargo wasnt doing anything.

So why keep it?
TRVE, do you not believe my post is as I say it is?

I dont even know what the fuck you are saying.

So you admit that the US embargo wasnt doing anything.

So why keep it?


I dont even know what the fuck you are saying.

Why get rid of it? Communist governments need to have an embargo placed on them no matter what.

TRVE I also said that trade relations with every nation in the world, including tourists has not worked either because the Cuban government is a dictatorship elite that will not change because the world asks it nicelly too.

Why get rid of it? Communist governments need to have an embargo placed on them no matter what.

What a compelling arguement. I disagree.
TRVE I also said that trade relations with every nation in the world, including tourists has not worked either because the Cuban government is a dictatorship elite that will not change because the world asks it nicelly too.
Whats your point? You seem to be admitting that no matter what we do nothing will work.

What a compelling arguement. I disagree.

Whats your point? You seem to be admitting that no matter what we do nothing will work.

That's because your a liberal.

Oh, so the goal is to get Castros out of power? Then lets invade and liberate the Cuban people. Again.

That's because your a liberal.
You have won! I am vanquished!:rolleyes:
Oh, so the goal is to get Castros out of power? Then lets invade and liberate the Cuban people. Again.
Where have I said thats the goal?

You have won! I am vanquished!:rolleyes:

Where have I said thats the goal?

You said it not me.:tongue:

You said it not me.:tongue:

What a pretty strawman. Its clear you have no interest in an actual discussion. Maybe when you do, Ill start responding to your posts.

What a pretty strawman. Its clear you have no interest in an actual discussion. Maybe when you do, Ill start responding to your posts.

You only use the strawman thing because you know I'm right and don't want to admit it. And stop breaking rule 14.

That's because your a liberal.

Oh, so the goal is to get Castros out of power? Then lets invade and liberate the Cuban people. Again.

Hey, why not? Why stop with only Arab Countries? Seems the height of Discrimination that we dont Wrought our Destruction equally!

TRVE, do you not believe my post is as I say it is?

Do others of you not believe my post is as I say it is?

I believe your post wholeheartedly, Im just not seeing how the embargo is helping, or hurting the situation...

So whats the point? Especially with the prospect, however unlikely, that eventually we could Americanize the place...

Im not saying that its even possible right now, but being that nothing but the status quo is possible atm, why keep up with an obviously flawed strategy?

Hey, why not? Why stop with only Arab Countries? Seems the height of Discrimination that we dont Wrought our Destruction equally!

I never said anything about arab countries....

I never said anything about arab countries....

Yeah, but I did, we should get on this immediately, :p

Yeah, but I did, we should get on this immediately, :p

Nah. I prefer ground zero ocean.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/Fox1Hoodlum/GroundZeroOcean.jpg

Nah. I prefer ground zero ocean.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/Fox1Hoodlum/GroundZeroOcean.jpg
It appears you missed Somalia and Pakistan somehow, and also appear to have clipped the quite good state of Bahrain.

It appears you missed Somalia and Pakistan somehow, and also appear to have clipped the quite good state of Bahrain.

They can be taken care of in round two, ;)

And, collateral damage, small loss at best.....

It appears you missed Somalia and Pakistan somehow, and also appear to have clipped the quite good state of Bahrain.
This. Gosh, the world would be so much more simple and stress-free.


Imagine there's no Islam
It's easy if you try
No bombs oppose us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no Islam
It isn't hard to do
No virgins to kill or die for
And no Allah too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no Islam
I wonder if you can
No need for Jihad or Sharia
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

This. Gosh, the world would be so much more simple and stress-free.

The problem is, that can easily be said for religion in general across the world...

The problem is, that can easily be said for religion in general across the world...
Meh, I'd disagree. I'm hardly religious but I'll have to point out that most of the religious strife that influences governmental policy, preaches violence and promotes oppression is Islam. Not to say that other religions don't, but as of today they don't to the level of Islam. (Of course, historically, that's a whole other issue) :p

Meh, I'd disagree. I'm hardly religious but I'll have to point out that most of the religious strife that influences governmental policy, preaches violence and promotes oppression is Islam. Not to say that other religions don't, but as of today they don't to the level of Islam. (Of course, historically, that's a whole other issue) :p

Idk, no doubt that there are alot more radicals in Islam as of late, but, Ive heard some things from that new Pope...

Idk, no doubt that there are alot more radicals in Islam as of late, but, Ive heard some things from that new Pope...
Lol...come on Skallvia, be rational. Like I said, I'm secular and not the biggest fan of religion, and indeed the Pope does say some dumb stuff (condoms don't help fight AIDs in Africa:rolleyes:) but it's not even close.

The pope is responsible for 100000000000 times less strife, violence and oppression than the extreme Islam that is quite powerful today, or than the theocratic muslim governments that exist. . .

*sigh*

Religion isn't the reason for doing anything, ever, it's an excuse.

"So err why are we attacking the Moors, sir?"
"Well to spread Christianity (also take back land and shit)"

"So eh why do these infidels need blowing up"
"God wills it and such (also because it's the best land in the Levant)"

"Why are you always chillaxed?"
"Because Haile Sellassi is here to guide us (also we loves the wacky backy)"

Meh, I'd disagree. I'm hardly religious but I'll have to point out that most of the religious strife that influences governmental policy, preaches violence and promotes oppression is Islam. Not to say that other religions don't, but as of today they don't to the level of Islam. (Of course, historically, that's a whole other issue) :p

Yeah, true, but you cant just demonize all of Islam, Turkey I hear is quite nice...

Besides, we can always point to the death tally of Catholicism vs Islam and its just no contest...

Also, what Yootopia said...

*sigh*

Religion isn't the reason for doing anything, ever, it's an excuse.

"So err why are we attacking the Moors, sir?"
"Well to spread Christianity (also take back land and shit)"

"So eh why do these infidels need blowing up"
"God wills it and such (also because it's the best land in the Levant)"

"Why are you always chillaxed?"
"Because Haile Sellassi is here to guide us (also we loves the wacky backy)"
Agree on some cases, disagree on others. Though it's not worth arguing, because you'd have to prove that the extreme religious people (for example the theocratic council in Iran) don't actually beleive, religiously, what they dictate, but use their religion as an excuse to dictate.

You can't prove that, it's impossible. You may be right, or not. Nobody will ever know.

Alas and alack for cigar quality :(

Actually it declined awhile ago. The cigar makers found more money in the other islands.....

Yeah, true, but you cant just demonize all of Islam, Turkey I hear is quite nice...
Turkey still has quite a few problems with extremist Islam, it is just fortunate to have a government that is opposed to that.
Besides, we can always point to the death tally of Catholicism vs Islam and its just no contest...
Hence why I made it very clear that I was speaking about "today" as in 'currently'. ;)

Turkey still has quite a few problems with extremist Islam, it is just fortunate to have a government that is opposed to that.

Hence why I made it very clear that I was speaking about "today" as in 'currently'. ;)

Yeah, but thats "Extremist Islam" not Islam in general, if you amended it for Extremist Islam, Id have no problem with that...

Besides, arguably the US has a real problem with extremist Christians, aka, Fundamentalists, Bush was very religious...

Im just glad we have a President who is largely opposed to that...

Yeah, I was just saying as a reference to which is more destructive...

The Cuban privileged governing dictatorship elite in Havana, of which I happen to have 2 family members, may very well be laughing at the so called hardline Cuban American community in Miami they call Cuban American Miami Mafia members, escoria scum, gusano worms but send us your Cuban American family remittaces $. But I guarantee you they are also laughing at every democratic world leader that supports thier govenment dictatorship for life through trade, $ diplomatic relations, tourists $ and constructive dialogue, denials and excuses. The democratic liberal democrats who recently went to Cuba and came back with praise of the democratic Cuban government for life. That is the main point that I am trying to make.

The other main point I am trying to make, that is why Cuban Americans like myself are crazy Cuban Americans who say and do the darnest things, why we are called by many crazy Cuban Americans, why we feel the way we do that the wold dosent care. At leas now do you understand our feelings? That is all I ask.

The other main point I am trying to make, that is why Cuban Americans like myself are crazy Cuban Americans who say and do the darnest things, why we are called by many crazy Cuban Americans, why we feel the way we do that the wold dosent care. At leas now do you understand our feelings? That is all I ask.

Oh, we understand your feelings. We just don't give a damn about them.

You see, LOTS OF people of Cuba would benefit from the end of the embargo. The Embargo also isn't doing JACK SHIT against Fidel. Those two bits of information matter. Your feelings do not. That simple.

You see, LOTS OF people of Cuba would benefit from the end of the embargo.

Everyone but the government would benefit.

Communist governments need to have an embargo placed on them no matter what.

Why?

Why?

Because HE WANNA!!! :p

Because HE WANNA!!! :p

lol

Seriously, there is no reason we can't have warm relations with communist countries (or countries that call themselves that) if we truly want to. After all, we got along just fine with the former SFRY, and we have pretty good relations with Viet Nam today.

Why?

lol

Seriously, there is no reason we can't have warm relations with communist countries (or countries that call themselves that) if we truly want to. After all, we got along just fine with the former SFRY, and we have pretty good relations with Viet Nam today.

If you could, would you embargo Stalin led USSR? Communism is evil. Its 100% pure evil and oppression.

No, I would never embargo any country, period. Who you choose to trade with, and what items you wish to trade with them, is your business, not mine.

No, I would never embargo any country, period. Who you choose to trade with, and what items you wish to trade with them, is your business, not mine.

The only thing that should be trade with communist countries is out going artillery.

If you could, would you embargo Stalin led USSR? Communism is evil. Its 100% pure evil and oppression.

Which is, of course, why you'd never support an embargo with CAPITALIST oppressive dystopias. :rolleyes:

Snip.

Those aren't posts, those are neocon bumper stickers.

Which is, of course, why you'd never support an embargo with CAPITALIST oppressive dystopias. :rolleyes:

No because Brazil has stuff we need. :tongue:

1010102, would you support an embargo on, say, Pinochet's Chile? Why or why not?

No because Brazil has stuff we need. :tongue:

Brazil's not an oppressive dystopia, bub. ;)

No because Brazil has stuff we need. :tongue:

I'm thinking of a suggestion I'd give you right now about something you might go do.

1010102, would you support an embargo on, say, Pinochet's Chile? Why or why not?

Yes because he was brutal mass murderer. Assholes have no one set ideology.

I'm thinking of a suggestion I'd give you right now about something you might go do.

I was joking dude, calm down.

Yes because he was brutal mass murderer. Assholes have no one set ideology.

Okay. You earned my respect.

I was joking dude, calm down.

I didn't say WHAT suggestion, did I? :p

Yes because he was brutal mass murderer. Assholes have no one set ideology.

At least you're consistent.

Okay. You earned my respect.

Well thanks, now I can sleep at night because some translator from Brazil has my respect. Good bye insomnia!

Well thanks, now I can sleep at night because some translator from Brazil has my respect. Good bye insomnia!

Don't let the bedbugs bite.

Don't let the bedbugs bite.

Great, I forgot about those. Now I'm scared to go to bed. :rolleyes:

At least you're consistent.

One of the few things you can judge on man on that matter.

Great, I forgot about those. Now I'm scared to go to bed. :rolleyes:

Well, I'm going, honey, so you'll have to decide if we wanna have fun before or after... :p

Well, I'm going, honey, so you'll have to decide if we wanna have fun before or after... :p

I've got to admit, that this first time you've ever posted anything I thought was funny.

Oh, we understand your feelings. We just don't give a damn about them.

You see, LOTS OF people of Cuba would benefit from the end of the embargo. The Embargo also isn't doing JACK SHIT against Fidel. Those two bits of information matter. Your feelings do not. That simple.

As long as they under the Cuban dictatorship for life is no problem.

What the world wants the Cuban American community to say and do is Viva Fidel, Viva Raul, Viva La Revolucion for life $ no problem.

And you think I am surprised that most persons and world leaders dont care as as Grave_n_idle also correctly stated, that is also part of my point.

Would they have the same views and feel the same way if it were thier nation of origin. I NS Bet $ not.

Also apart from Anti American feelings no matter who is the USA president including President Obama thier is an affinity felt by democratic European Socialists with the Cuban dictatorship government elite even if they abhor the dictatorship nature of the Cuban government because they are supposedly fellow socialists. This affinity is strongest in so called intellectual world figures of the left including American liberal politicians, like Senator Christopher Dodd, Senator John Kerry, Rep Jose Serrano and others.

Too bad the solution seems to be a bureaucrat's wet dream and the traveler's nightmare. Props to BO for starting in the right direction but let's try going all the way and restoring full diplomatic relations and trade.

Too bad the solution seems to be a bureaucrat's wet dream and the traveler's nightmare. Props to BO for starting in the right direction but let's try going all the way and restoring full diplomatic relations and trade.

And Viva Fidel, Viva Raul, Viva La Revolucion forever, no problem right Lord Tothe?

And Viva Fidel, Viva Raul, Viva La Revolucion forever, no problem right Lord Tothe?

And how has marginalizing Cuba helped that nation or the USA in any way, shape, or form whatsoever? If we believe in freedom, why not exercise it and demonstrate it?

He is trying to help Cuba and Mexico build up relations, also there is a plan for canada, us and mexico to have 1 currency. Well this is what the documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw) says. I personally think Cuba will join up with the U.S again in the near future.

And how has marginalizing Cuba helped that nation or the USA in any way, shape, or form whatsoever? If we believe in freedom, why not exercise it and demonstrate it?

With all due respect Lord Tothe have you not been reading my posts that relations with the world have not worked out either because of international support and excuses for the dictatorship government elite. I guarantee you that dictatorship elite of which I happen to have 2 family members are laughing as well at all the democratic world leaders that support it.

Marginalizing the world has done everything but marginalize it.

Will all due respuect Lord Tothe have you not been reading my posts that relations with the world have not worked out either because of international support and excuses for the dictatorship government elite. I guarantee you that dictatorship elite of which I happen to have 2 family members are laughing as well at all the democratic world leaders that support it.

Marginalizing the world has done everything but marginalize it.

You've yet to show that the embargo has done anything useful.

Or that lifting the sanctions will cause more harm than good.

Hell, you're yet to show anything. Your posts are long, twisting rants that are pretty much copy and pasted together from every other thread you post in, relying entirely on your word alone as authority.

You've yet to show that the embargo has done anything useful.

Or that lifting the sanctions will cause more harm than good.

Hell, you're yet to show anything. Your posts are long, twisting rants that are pretty much copy and pasted together from every other thread you post in, relying entirely on your word alone as authority.

My so called rants are the feelings of the Cuban American Community that is crazy at the international support of all the nation leaders of the world for the Cuban dictatorship elite.

You have yet not proven that relations with the world has done anything to mellow and change that dictatorship government's nature.

Favoring open international relations does not equal supporting the government or ideology of other nations. It means supporting the idea of freedom as I understand it, and showing other nations that have less freedom how greater freedom is beneficial to all. Castro is dictator and he has done little good and much evil for his nation, but how does that excuse our adding an economic burden to the nation that will only harm the average Cuban even more?

My so called rants are the feelings of the Cuban American Community that is crazy at the international support of all the nation leaders of the world for the Cuban dictatorship elite.

You have yet not proven that relations with the world has done anything to mellow and change that dictatorship government's nature.

Since I haven't argued that (I think you've been arguing the reverse, honestly, I don't know what you're on about half the time), I'll back up my own argument; that the US embargo does nothing good.

Source (http://mun.berkeley.edu/Conference/WTO1.pdf)

Sadly, however, poverty in Cuba has become rampant; after Soviet aid petered out as the Soviets faced their own tumultuous contemporary history, Cuba was put into a recession, leading to the economic plight that is a reality for a majority of Cuban people. As discussed in the New York Times, “hardship and hunger” have become the “cruel reality” of the Cuban people as the salaries of everyone from doctors to taxi drivers have plummeted, and setting up unusual but crippling situations. For example, although the Cuban government offers free education all the way up to the university level, jobs are extremely rare for academic work, and therefore, many Cuban citizens are forced to choose low paying jobs over education so that they can survive. The embargo certainly has had its effects, but they have targeted the wrong audience.

The article argues that the US embargo would be far more effective if the rest of the world backed it; but we don't, so essentially Cuba is being fucked over by it's neighbour, the world's economic superpower. The Cuban population is starved, while Castro et al can point to the US and say, "Look! The West hates us! That's why you're suffering!"

Favoring open international relations does not equal supporting the government or ideology of other nations. It means supporting the idea of freedom as I understand it, and showing other nations that have less freedom how greater freedom is beneficial to all. Castro is dictator and he has done little good and much evil for his nation, but how does that excuse our adding an economic burden to the nation that will only harm the average Cuban even more?

Exactly. Further, I'd add that the only way to properly bring down a dictatorship is to expose its true nature to the population. The best way to do that is to let the population see what they're missing, rather than turning your back on them and pretending they don't exist.

I think the Cuban people in Cuba like my family member who recently legally emigrated from Cuba knows the Cuban government trades with the world, buys agricultural products from the USA on a cash basis, ect, ect.

I can agree with Lord Tothe that favoring open international relations does not necessarilly equal supporting the government or ideology of other nations. But it does favor it and helps it $.

The Cuban government dosent need relations with the USA or any nation in the world to stop being a dictatorship government.

All in all I would say this has been a good exchange of views with my fellow nations and a good exchange of the views and feelings of a majority of the Cuban American Community.

I think the Cuban people in Cuba like my family member who recently legally emigrated from Cuba knows the Cuban government trades with the world, buys agricultural products from the USA on a cash basis, ect, ect.

I can agree with Lord Tothe that favoring open international relations does not necessarilly equal supporting the government or ideology of other nations. But it does favor it and helps it $.

The Cuban government dosent need relations with the USA or any nation in the world to stop being a dictatorship government.

All in all I would say this has been a good exchange of views with my fellow nations and a good exchange of the views and feelings of a majority of the Cuban American Community.

Yes, but removing the embargo would improve the economic life of the island nation. It's ridiculous to keep it in this day and age, the Castro and their officials don't feel it, but the common folk do.

My so called rants are the feelings of the Cuban American Community that is crazy at the international support of all the nation leaders of the world for the Cuban dictatorship elite.

You have yet not proven that relations with the world has done anything to mellow and change that dictatorship government's nature.
Irrelevant. Cuban affairs are a huge fucking double standard. If we were to treat every tyrannical dictatorship like we do Cuba, the US would be boycotting China, Russia, the Middle East, and other countries we do plenty of business with. It's all the bullshit Cuban expat voting block. If Chinese expats had the same kind of political power the Cuban exceptions do, politicians would be lining up to offer their summer homes to the Uighurs from Guantanamo Bay.

Yes, but removing the embargo would improve the economic life of the island nation. It's ridiculous to keep it in this day and age, the Castro and their officials don't feel it, but the common folk do.

but if we open up with Cuba where am I going to hide my money from the government.

I think the Cuban people in Cuba like my family member who recently legally emigrated from Cuba knows the Cuban government trades with the world, buys agricultural products from the USA on a cash basis, ect, ect.

I can agree with Lord Tothe that favoring open international relations does not necessarilly equal supporting the government or ideology of other nations. But it does favor it and helps it $.

That is a valid argument. Or rather it would have been 50 years ago when the embargo was started. It has done exactly one thing for 50 years - make the US look ineffectual and stupid.

but if we open up with Cuba where am I going to hide my money from the government.

Switzerland or the Caribbean like all the other rich people.

Switzerland or the Caribbean like all the other rich people.

So much easier to be rich in Cuba.

My so called rants are the feelings of the Cuban American Community

Did they appoint you their spokesman now? Or maybe you'll call those who don't echo your feelings "Un-Cuban Americans" hmm?

but if we open up with Cuba where am I going to hide my money from the government.

Yo' bum... <_<

Yo' bum... <_<

Just taking care of Number 1

Just taking care of Number 1

:fluffle:

My so called rants are the feelings of the Cuban American Community that is crazy at the international support of all the nation leaders of the world for the Cuban dictatorship elite.

You have yet not proven that relations with the world has done anything to mellow and change that dictatorship government's nature.

You do not speak for the entire Cuban-American community. In fact, you speak for just 57% of it.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-03-20-miami-cuba-poll_N.htm

The archaic embargo will come to an end. It is merely a matter of time.

You do not speak for the entire Cuban-American community. In fact, you speak for just 57% of it.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-03-20-miami-cuba-poll_N.htm

The archaic embargo will come to an end. It is merely a matter of time.

Unfortunately the way our system is set up those 57% of Cubans in Miami can speak for the entire state of Florida come presidential elections.

I think the current move is Obama putting out feelers to see if he can go farther or not.

Snip.

Dude, you don't know what you're talking about.

Dude, you don't know what you're talking about.

Dude I am a Cuban born now Cuban American citizen. The information I have contributed to this thread is as it is. I know the feelings of a majority of the Cuban American community as it is my community.

Dude I am a Cuban born now Cuban American citizen. The information I have contributed to this thread is as it is. I know the feelings of a majority of the Cuban American community as it is my community.

And the fact remains you're letting your (justified or not) hatred towards Castro blind you to obvious facts and make you hope for the continuation of a policy that isn't harming HIM but is harming most Cuban people, all the while decrying as "anti-Americans" or other MOTHERFUCKING BULLSHIT whoever dares to disagree with you.

And the fact remains you're letting your (justified or not) hatred towards Castro blind you to obvious facts and make you hope for the continuation of a policy that isn't harming HIM but is harming most Cuban people, all the while decrying as "anti-Americans" or other MOTHERFUCKING BULLSHIT whoever dares to disagree with you.

He is right though. You see Cuba is an island. Islands are not part of the continent. So if your for Cubans your for an Island and against the Americas, both North and South.

He is right though. You see Cuba is an island. Islands are not part of the continent. So if your for Cubans your for an Island and against the Americas, both North and South.

*Pies GaD*

*Pies GaD*

*Embargoes HKK*

The only thing harming the Cuban people is the privileged dictatorship elite of dictators for life Fidel and Raul which the world leaders support no matter what thier reasons.

Today in fact many have been bought $ by Hugo Chavez oil money $. All these so called hispanic brother presidents who have recently traveled to Cuba and taken pictures with Fidel. But thier support for the Castro brothers has been there even before Hugo Chavez oil money $. Hugo Chavez oil money $ has just added to thier reasons of support of dictators Fidel and Raul.

As I stated the Cuban dictatorship does not need relations with any nation in the world to stop being a dictatorship government.

Agree on some cases, disagree on others. Though it's not worth arguing, because you'd have to prove that the extreme religious people (for example the theocratic council in Iran) don't actually beleive, religiously, what they dictate, but use their religion as an excuse to dictate.

You can't prove that, it's impossible. You may be right, or not. Nobody will ever know.

Yet previously you argued that they are doing it for religious reasons. So, now that you have admitted that you can't possibly know if religion is actually a motivation, will you continue to blame Islam for the acts of some of its followers?

Dude I am a Cuban born now Cuban American citizen. The information I have contributed to this thread is as it is. I know the feelings of a majority of the Cuban American community as it is my community.

The feelings of the Cuban-American population are to end the embargo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7762565.stm

Most Cuban-Americans living in Miami want an end to the US embargo against Cuba, a new poll suggests.

With 55% of those interviewed opposing the embargo, the poll result marks a major shift of opinion among Miami's Cuban-Americans, researchers said.

Snip.

So, how many more noses do you want cut off until you're done spiting the face?

Gift of God you of all persons should wish the end of the Cuban dictatorship for life of Fidel and Raul instead of supporting it as your past posts have indicated.

Well its a start.

Gift of God you of all persons should wish the end of the Cuban dictatorship for life of Fidel and Raul instead of supporting it as your past posts have indicated.

SCREW THE CASTROS!

This is about the Cuban people. Did the Embargo do the fucking Castros ANY harm at all? Did it? NO! They're still in power. Did it harm the Cuban people, whom you claim to support? Fucking YES. THAT'S the issue here, not your delusions of "if you're against the Embargo, you support Castro".

I don't care about your delusions. Neither does reality. And neither do the Cuban people left starving by the Embargo while Castro isn't the least bit inconvenienced by it.

SCREW THE CASTROS!

This is about the Cuban people. Did the Embargo do the fucking Castros ANY harm at all? Did it? NO! They're still in power. Did it harm the Cuban people, whom you claim to support? Fucking YES. THAT'S the issue here, not your delusions of "if you're against the Embargo, you support Castro".

I don't care about your delusions. Neither does reality. And neither do the Cuban people left starving by the Embargo while Castro isn't the least bit inconvenienced by it.

You know H2, sometimes you need to relax and be more rational and less angry with your arguments.

You know H2, sometimes you need to relax and be more rational and less angry with your arguments.

You're shitting me? MS is acting like opposing the Embargo - which does not harm Castro at all - is supporting Castro, ranting and raving about communist sympathizers, and I need to be more rational and less angry?

SCREW THE CASTROS!

This is about the Cuban people. Did the Embargo do the fucking Castros ANY harm at all? Did it? NO! They're still in power. Did it harm the Cuban people, whom you claim to support? Fucking YES. THAT'S the issue here, not your delusions of "if you're against the Embargo, you support Castro".

I don't care about your delusions. Neither does reality. And neither do the Cuban people left starving by the Embargo while Castro isn't the least bit inconvenienced by it.

Without an intention to criticise, one needs to understand the mentality of the Cubans on exile. I don't know Miami Shores's particular situation, he was, after all, born in US soil (or so it seems), I don't know how his family had to abandon the Island nation and what they were forced to leave behind. I can, to a point, understand his reticience. But it is as you say. This is not about the Castros. They were not harmed by the embargo. This is about the Cuban people and how unfair it is that they're suffering the US's embargo on their nation.

SCREW THE CASTROS!

This is about the Cuban people. Did the Embargo do the fucking Castros ANY harm at all? Did it? NO! They're still in power. Did it harm the Cuban people, whom you claim to support? Fucking YES. THAT'S the issue here, not your delusions of "if you're against the Embargo, you support Castro".

I don't care about your delusions. Neither does reality. And neither do the Cuban people left starving by the Embargo while Castro isn't the least bit inconvenienced by it.

Could you do us a favor and not respond to any more posts in this thread? You do our side of the debate a great disservice by posting.

You're shitting me? MS is acting like opposing the Embargo - which does not harm Castro at all - is supporting Castro, ranting and raving about communist sympathizers, and I need to be more rational and less angry?

Yeah, all I got out of what you said is fuck. All your doing is making yourself look less intelligent by getting so angry. I'm trying to help.

Gift of God you of all persons should wish the end of the Cuban dictatorship for life of Fidel and Raul instead of supporting it as your past posts have indicated.
thats what we all want (if that turns out to be wish if the cuban people)

having american relatives visit and bring money and gifts, allowing cell phone and internet companies to operate in cuba (however that works) is a step to undermining the control the cuban government has over its people.

Could you do us a favor and not respond to any more posts in this thread?

Nah.

All your doing is making yourself look less intelligent by getting so angry. I'm trying to help.

You DO realize that I posted pretty nicely until MS turned this into a "baaaawww, you're with me or you're pro-castro!" rant?

You DO realize that I posted pretty nicely until MS turned this into a "baaaawww, you're with me or you're pro-castro!" rant?

Then you should have been happy with your victory instead of angry with his being a poor loser.

Then you should have been happy with your victory instead of angry with his being a poor loser.

Mmm.

Gift of God you of all persons should wish the end of the Cuban dictatorship for life of Fidel and Raul instead of supporting it as your past posts have indicated.

I support the efforts of the Cuban people to have the government they want. Not the government the US wants.

The embargo is about forcing Cuba to have the government the US wants, not about the Cuban people.

I support the efforts of the Cuban people to have the government they want. Not the government the US wants.

The embargo is about forcing Cuba to have the government the US wants, not about the Cuban people.

Bingo.

The Embargo is solely about injured American and Exile Pride, nothing more. Burma and North Korea show that isolating a regime economically and otherwise only serves to aid the regime's control over its populace. The people who continually hand Cuba to the Castros claiming the Embargo is meant to open up the country are at best sheep who buy into archaic "Kill a Commie For Mommy" rhetoric and at worst are disingenuous politicos who continue to exploit the situation for personal gain.

lol, where to begin. Gift of God the only thing not allowing the Cuban people like my family member who recently emigrated from Cuba from chosing what they want is the dictatorship government for life that does not respect all Cubans political and economic and social views.

I am Cuban born now Cuban American citizen, I have 2 former Cuban political prisoners in the family, I have 2 privileged family members of the Cuban government elite.

Does anyone believe the Cuban government would permit under relations any type of relations that would undermine thier control, I dont and I think you dont either.

Thank you Nanatus No Tsuki for your understading of our mentality even if you have different views.

Every person on this forum has a right to post thier views. As I have stated my so called rants are the feelings of a majority of the Cuban American community thats is crazy over the international support of world leaders for dictators for life Fidel and Raul no matter what thier reasons. The main goal of my posts is to point these feelings out in that goal I have succeded.

...the only thing not allowing the Cuban people...from chosing what they want is the dictatorship...

Can they choose to purchse US goods at market prices? No.

Why not? Because of the embargo.

Did Castro cause the embargo? No.

So, the dictatorship is not the only thing limiting the freedom of the Cuban people.

Every person on this forum has a right to post thier views. As I have stated my so called rants are the feelings of a majority of the Cuban American community thats is crazy over the international support of world leaders for dictators for life Fidel and Raul no matter what thier reasons. The main goal of my posts is to point these feelings out in that goal I have succeded.

Except for the fact that most Cuban Americans want to end the embargo.

I'll repeat it as you seem to have missed it the first time:

Most Cuban Americans want to end the embargo.

lol, where to begin. Gift of God the only thing not allowing the Cuban people like my family member who recently emigrated from Cuba from chosing what they want is the dictatorship government for life that does not respect all Cubans political and economic and social views.

That, unfortunately, is something your people expose themselves to when they decide to leave Cuba. Lifting the embargo, of course, won't change that. But that's the political reality of your nation.

I am Cuban born now Cuban American citizen, I have 2 former Cuban political prisoners in the family, I have 2 privileged family members of the Cuban government elite.

Then that should give you an understanding of both views on the subject you encounter on NSG.

Does anyone believe the Cuban government would permit under relations any type of relations that would undermine thier control, I dont and I think you dont either.

Governments do evolve, Miami Shores. Es algo difícil de entender, pero ocurre. No te ciegues a que ésto pueda ocurrir con el gobierno de Cuba.

Thank you Nanatus No Tsuki for your understading of our mentality even if you have different views.

No hay de qué. Crecí conociendo exiliados cubanos en España. Entiendo la mentalidad del que se vé forzado a abandonar la tierra por razones políticas. Mis abuelos maternos son exiliados españoles viviendo en Puerto Rico. Es una realidad muy dura.

SCREW THE CASTROS!

Which, coincidentally, removing the embargo will do.

This is about the Cuban people. Did the Embargo do the fucking Castros ANY harm at all? Did it? NO! They're still in power. Did it harm the Cuban people, whom you claim to support? Fucking YES. THAT'S the issue here, not your delusions of "if you're against the Embargo, you support Castro".

In fact, the embargo has done the exact opposite for the Brothers Castro. It's given them the "external threat" that is required to justify the perpetuation of the state of emergency and its associated repression.

If you could, would you embargo Stalin led USSR?

Yep. The US picked the wrong side back in '41. Shoulda kicked those Russkies while they were down.

Communism is evil. Its 100% pure evil and oppression.

Yep. That's why!

lol, where to begin. Gift of God the only thing not allowing the Cuban people like my family member who recently emigrated from Cuba from chosing what they want is the dictatorship government for life *snip*

Enough! It's like the twentieth time just in this thread you've used that "government for life" phrase.

"Government-for-life" would be much more readable.

Not your fault, obviously. American education, not big on punctuation from what I can tell, at least until senior high.

the younger generation of Habana immigrants in Miami are actually in favor of this (and voted for Obama!)

Fidel is dying; the old days are over

besides, i could really use a good cigar.

Not your fault, obviously. American education, not big on punctuation from what I can tell, at least until senior high.

That's only the government-funded public education system. Private schools, parochial schools, charter academies, and home school offer a superior level of academic instruction.

Not your fault, obviously. American education, not big on punctuation from what I can tell, at least until senior high.

Take it easy on him. English is not his first language and he wasn't born in the US.

Not your fault, obviously. American education, not big on punctuation from what I can tell, at least until senior high.
That's only the government-funded public education system. Private schools, parochial schools, charter academies, and home school offer a superior level of academic instruction.
God, both these statements are so full of shit I cant even enter this thread anymore without the smell making me feel kinda sick.

I'd at least like the option of visiting my extended family without having to jump through hoops.

This still leaves some of those hoops in place.

Took em long enough, and this still isn't totally fair, but it's a start and it's better than nothing.

Took em long enough, and this still isn't totally fair, but it's a start and it's better than nothing.

I agree that it isnt enough, but in politics, especially involving things that are "hot button issues" for a good chunk of a voting block, you need to do things gradually.

Obama is being cautious. Id wadger that if he had just flat out removed every restriction and dropped the embargo all it once that backlash would have been epic.

Take it easy on him. English is not his first language and he wasn't born in the US.

I'm fairly certain that he is a monolingual English speaker. At least, he has told me that he does not speak Spanish. This is, of course, assuming that Miami Shores and LaHabanaCuba are the same person. The writing style is exactly the same.

Its great for the family he made a great decision!

I'm fairly certain that he is a monolingual English speaker. At least, he has told me that he does not speak Spanish. This is, of course, assuming that Miami Shores and LaHabanaCuba are the same person. The writing style is exactly the same.

I don't think he is LaHabanaCuba, but I could be mistaken. This poster understands Spanish and writes in it. And to the best of my knowledge, so does LaHabanaCuba.

Take it easy on him. English is not his first language and he wasn't born in the US.

In retrospect, it does seem rather mean. It was meant to be funny and the mockery directed at the US not at the poster. I guess it just didn't work.

Except insofar as it provoked Lord Tothe to say something even sillier. :p

In retrospect, it does seem rather mean. It was meant to be funny and the mockery directed at the US not at the poster. I guess it just didn't work.

Well, the thing is that one needs to try and place oneself on the context of the exiled person. I don't know, it's been very hard for my family to cope, although it's been decades (40 years) that my grndparents had to exile themselves from Spain for political reasons.

Many Cubans allege that no matter what, not even if it rains gold through the streets of Cuba, they'll never go back to their country. Rather drastic, I think that if they had the chance, they would go back. That has happened to my grandparents, even after 30 years of Franco's defeat, they still refuse to go back home and they can. I don't want to think how Cubans feel when many know that, although still having family there, they may not be able to go back.

Well, the thing is that one needs to try and place oneself on the context of the exiled person. I don't know, it's been very hard for my family to cope, although it's been decades (40 years) that my grndparents had to exile themselves from Spain for political reasons.

Many Cubans allege that no matter what, not even if it rains gold through the streets of Cuba, they'll never go back to their country. Rather drastic, I think that if they had the chance, they would go back. That has happened to my grandparents, even after 30 years of Franco's defeat, they still refuse to go back home and they can. I don't want to think how Cubans feel when many know that, although still having family there, they may not be able to go back.

the exile I talked to wants to go back and just talk shit with his relatives(his words). But can't as he would be locked up and tortured again as a political dissident. Can't say his view on the embargo he danced around questions about it fairly well.

the exile I talked to wants to go back and just talk shit with his relatives(his words). But can't as he would be locked up and tortured again as a political dissident. Can't say his view on the embargo he danced around questions about it fairly well.

I think that the main problem with the Cuban exiles is not really the embargo, it's all about political ideology.

I think that the main problem with the Cuban exiles is not really the embargo, it's all about political ideology.

The impression I got is they don't want to back down in any way shape or form until the Castro bothers are dead.

The impression I got is they don't want to back down in any way shape or form until the Castro bothers are dead.

Again, political ideology.

Again, political ideology.

or stubbornness I guess the same difference.

or stubbornness I guess the same difference.

Perhaps. Still a sad reality.

The impression I got is they don't want to back down in any way shape or form until the Castro bothers are dead.

Bothers or Brothers? Cos the meaning changes greatly either way.

Bothers or Brothers? Cos the meaning changes greatly either way.

Brothers.

Lol, where to begin. At the risk of repeating myself, lol, I apologize for repeating myself. My best material but I wanted to post these articles of which I have to comment on according to the NS Jolt rules.

Well according to these articles Fidel and Raul or whomever is running Cuba seems serious about full Cuba, US relations.

Dont get all excited by the first words of the following article until it is official as we have all been there before only to be disappointed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Castro says Cuba willing to talk on equal terms
The Associated Press

CUMANA, Venezuela -- Cuban President Raul Castro says his government is willing to discuss "everything" with Washington, including human rights, political prisoners and freedom of the press.

Castro says Havana has "sent word to the U.S. government in private and in public" that it is open to talking about anything, as long as it's "on equal terms."

His comments came Thursday during a speech to leaders at a summit hosted by Venezuela's Hugo Chavez.

Castro spoke hours after President Barack Obama said he wants Havana to make the next move to improve U.S.-Cuba relations.

He did not specifically mention Obama's comments.
----------------------------------------------------------

I can understand your theory tourists, economic relations and they loose political control. Yet I (We) see the Cuban government (dictatorship) trading with the world as they are, Recieving 2,348,340 tourists during 2008 including 50,000 Americans as they are. And no democratic changes as that is the nature of the privileged dictatorship elite of which I happen to have 2 family members.

Unless Fidel, Raul or whomever is running Cuba have lost thier minds and are willing to commit political suicide under the theory of tourists, relations and they loose political control.

One would think the Cuban government (dictatorship) would not allow any form of economic relations that would undermine thier political control as they now have with the world leaders that support it for whatever reasons.

If the Cuban government (dictatorship) really wants full economic, political and social relations with the USA I have no doubt American, Cuban government issues can be negotiated. Cuban help in drug intradiction. American tourists of which I would think the Cuban government would have to set a quota to handle the extra flow while new hotel resorts are built. American loans $ and Credits, Guantanamo Bay, ect, ect.

I can support Cuban Americans traveling to Cuba to see thier families, I cant support American tourists $ going to Cuba. Tourists see the awesome tourist resorts.

Cuban Americans see thier families in need. Buying high priced $ products in so called dollar stores in CUC Pesos $ in a currency they do not earn. Provided by Cuban American hard currency family remittances $ in Dollars or Euros exchanged for CUC Pesos $. While it helps our families live a little better Cuban style to me it is a form of ransom $, a form of black mail.

The problem would be Cuban American issues, the release of all Cuban political prisoners within Cuba not exile. Freedoms of the press and assembly. Multi political party elections to the Cuban National Assembly Parliament. As the following article seems to call for. Then again who cares other than Cuban Americans.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted on Thursday, 04.16.09

By FRANCES ROBLES
frobles@MiamiHerald.com

PORT OF SPAIN, Trinidad -- Cuba should be reincorporated to the Organization of American States as the first step to its path to democracy, the hemispheric organization's secretary general said Thursday on the eve of the Fifth Summit of the Americas.

''I want to be clear: I want Cuba back in the Interamerican system,'' OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza said in an interview with The Miami Herald. ''I think it was a bad idea in the first place ... Cuba is a member of the OAS. Its flag is there.''

Insulza's statement came as President Barack Obama told CNN en espanol that if Cuba starts taking steps toward freedom, a îîthawing of relations'' would come next.

Cuba was suspended from the OAS in 1962. The reason: its alliance with the Soviet Union.

The hemispheric organization's top leader said that since the grounds for Cuba's suspension are outdated and were a ''bad idea in the first place,'' the hemisphere's last remaining communist nation should be welcomed back, despite an OAS clause that says the people of the Americas îîhave a right to democracy and their governments have an obligation to promote and defend it.''

Nearly three dozen heads of government began arriving in this capital city Thursday for for the three-day summit, which opens Friday. The 34 regional leaders are expected to tackle issues from energy to crime and the global economic crisis. The first of the hemispheric gathering was held 15 years ago in Miami.

But this is the first time that pressure has been so strong to bring Cuba back in the fold.

Cuba is not even officially on the summit agenda, but the topic looms large, as more and more Latin American leaders make it clear that they believe Cuba's time of isolation is over.

The timing coincides with new administration of Obama, who on Monday gave Cuban Americans the right to travel freely and send money to relatives to the island. On Thursday, Obama hinted that further steps toward normalized relations could take place if Havana made changes of its own.

''What we're looking for is some signal that there are going to be changes in how Cuba operates that assures that political prisoners are released, that people can speak their minds freely, that they can travel, that they can write and attend church, and do the things that people throughout the hemisphere can do and take for granted,'' Obama told the news network. ''And if there's some sense of movement on those fronts in Cuba, then I think that we can see a further thawing of relations and further changes.''

Insulza called Washington's lifting of restrictions for Cuban Americans an important step. But, he added, that the OAS General Assembly should repeal the outdated resolution that suspends member states with Soviet alliances.

He said once the resolution is revoked, Cuba would regain its membership, even though the organization in 2001 adopted rules that embrace democracy. In the past, Insulza has said discussions should begin to reincorporate Cuba, but it was the first time his position was so unequivocal.

''I am concerned that we still have standing a resolution that punishes a country for being a member of the Soviet-Chinese axis, for being Marxist Leninist and several other things from the cold war,'' he said. ''By repealing that resolution we begin a process, we begin a discussion.''

Insulza said the OAS's democratic charter does not prevent Cuba from rejoining the organization. If the democratic charter is going to be held against Cuba, then that would require a separate suspension on those grounds, he said.

But retired Cuban leader Fidel Castro has already rejected the notion of reintegration to the hemispheric organization. In a column published this week, he decried both Insulza and the OAS.

''Insulza claims that, to enter the OAS, Cuba first has to be accepted by that institution. He knows that we don't even want to hear the infamous name of that institution,'' Castro wrote. ''It has not provided a single service to our people; it is the incarnation of betrayal. If you add up all the aggressive actions in which it was an accomplice, they amount to hundreds of lives and tens of bloody years.''

Castro's brother Raúl, who replaced him as president 14 months ago, spent the day in the Venezuelan city Cumaní with Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, who is having his own pre-summit meeting with his closest allies just a few miles from Trinidad.

Chávez said he would veto the final declaration due to be issued by this weekend's summit. The declaration is essentially an agreement signed by the 34 member nations of the OAS to outline necessary actions needed to advance common issues in the hemisphere.

The document, Chávez said, was written ''as if time had not passed.''
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The Cuban government (dictatorship) has consistently refused the call of democratic changes from those Hispanic and European leaders who support the Cuban government (dictatorship) through relations, tourists and trade. For the obvious reasons that it is a dictatorship that will not democratize because the international community that supports it asks it too as those hispanic leaders are aware off.

Many persons like the Cuban government (dictatorship) call the Cuban American community the stuborn hardline intransigent ones. Yet no one calls the Cuban government (dictatorship) that refuses to democratize itself the stuborn hardline intrasigent ones.

If you were them would you change? I would not and dont blame them under the circumstances.

The Cuban government (dictatorship) dosent need relations with any nation in the world to democratize itself if it wants too.

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Funny how President Raul criticizes the same current hispanic leaders that support his government with trade, tourists and relations in the following article.

April 16, 20
WORLD NEWS

Hugo Chavez Receives Cuban President Raul Castro

HAVANA, Cuba, April 16 (acn) Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez received Cuban President Raul Castro who arrived in the Venezuelan city of Cumana, Sucre to attend the Summit of the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (ALBA).

Cuban News Agency

During a press conference, Raul Castro reaffirmed that the Cuban government has no interest in joining the Organization of American States (OAS), reported Prensa Latina news agency.

“There is an endless list of things they have done against us and that they intend to continue doing against other countries,” said the Cuban president during a press conference at the Antonio José de Sucre international airport. “I have already said this during the Sauípe Summit in Bahía, Brazil: We are not interested in joining the OAS. The OAS has to disappear,” said Raul.

Upon his arrival to Cumana, the Cuban president said that the ALBA Summit coincides with the 48th anniversary of the Bay of Pigs invasion carried out in April 1961 by Cuban counterrevolutionaries with the support of the US government.

During the ALBA summit, the leaders of the member countries —Bolivia, Cuba, Dominica, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Venezuela— will analyze the regional and global impact of the current international economic crisis, along with other priority issues.
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The Cuban American community is not the stuborn hardline intransigent ones.
If the Cuban government (dictatorship) were to democratize itself I would be the first to welcome it. The Cuban Americans would welcome it. but I am not going to hold my breath. We see thier refusal before the world to democratize.

Change the Cuban American Community can believe in? Change we can believe in? Change you can believe in? Anyone care to comment?

Only when we see it, all they have to do is do it. No one is forcing them not too.

Please read post 162 as a reference point.

I will post this article and my comments keeping with NS Jolt rules on both threads as they are related. If President Raul Castro is willing to release Cuban political prisoners within Cuba not exile. Willing to allow freedoms of the Press and Assembly awesome. Not to even mention allow multi political party elections to the Cuban National Assembly Parliament.

If President Raul Castro means to talk and proclaim Cuba as the most democratic nation in the world that respects all these rights in a one political party state than it will be more of the same stuborn hardline intransigent policy they have been proclaiming to the entire world. Time will tell.
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US, Cuba trade warmest words in half century

Obama says Cuba should make next move AP –

Vivian Sequera, Associated Press Writer – 3 mins ago

PORT-OF-SPAIN, Trinidad – The United States and Cuba are trading the warmest words in their half-century cold war. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called Cuban President Raul Castro's latest comments a "very welcome gesture." After a series of overtures from U.S. President Barack Obama, Castro said yesterday that he is ready to talk with the U.S. and put "everything" on the table, even questions of human rights and political prisoners.

"We welcome his comments, the overture they represent and we are taking a very serious look at how we intend to respond," Clinton said while visiting the Dominican Republic on her way to the Summit of the Americas in Trinidad.

Meanwhile, the head of the Organization of American States said Friday that he will ask its members to readmit Cuba 47 years after they ousted the communist nation.

Obama and Clinton had earlier said that Havana needs to reciprocate his "good faith" gesture of removing some of the restrictions that lock Americans and their money out of Cuba. But Castro's comments seem to be helping relations move forward even without a more concrete move by Cuba on issues that have long been U.S. sticking points.

OAS Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza announced his intention to back Cuba's readmission to his group as Western Hemisphere leaders began arriving for 34-nation summit that excludes Cuba.

The OAS is run by consensus, and "we're going step by step," Insulza said. He said he would ask the organization's general assembly in Honduras at the end of May to annul the 1962 resolution that suspended Cuba.

The resolution called Cuba's communist system incompatible with the organization's principles and coincided with the imposition of a U.S. trade embargo. Among OAS members, only Mexico didn't break relations with Cuba at the time.

Most countries in the hemisphere have since restored diplomatic ties and have been clamoring in recent months for an end to Cuba's exclusion.

Castro's offer to discuss any and all topics with Washington — from freedom of the press to freeing political prisoners — may provide even more of a political opening.

At a meeting in Venezuela of allied nations organized by President Hugo Chavez, the Cuban chief called for the OAS to "disappear." And Chavez said the OAS remains a tool of U.S. policy.

Washington provides more than 70 percent of the organization's budget, which affords it certain privileges.