NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm about to go on the great search for which college I'm planning to attend. Consequently, that means I'm about to go from $42 in debt (my library fees) to as high as $80,000 - $100,000 in debt (said debt including grad school). First, I have to ask, is college worth getting shackled into debt for? And second, why should I have to go into debt to get trained for a job when, arguably, it would be in society's best interest to give me job training so that I can join the workforce and contribute to the nation's economy? Basically, why are the youth shackled to debt? Or is this how the elitists stay on top, by limiting higher education to those who can pay (preferably their own) and making slaves of the middle and lower class? I'm really criticizing higher education in the U.S., but I'd also like to hear about how higher education works in other countries (particularly Canada).

EDIT: Please mention where you go to college (nation or state).

First, I have to ask, is college worth getting shackled into debt for?
You'll make up for all your expenses in the first two years. Or in the first year if you take into account only the tuition fees.


And second, why should I have to go into debt to get trained for a job when, arguably, it would be in society's best interest to give me job training so that I can join the workforce and contribute to the nation's economy?
Well, get your training from the society then! It's called high school. There are also some essentially free community colleges.

Or you don't want to. You want to get a way higher quality training, from private or semi-private institutions, employing people whose time is valuable and could be used otherwise. You want it because you'll earn way more then.
Well - so why shouldn't you pay a small fraction of your future earnings back as a gratitude for this expensive service done to you?

Grad school often has opportunities for TA/RA positions. Of a half dozen or so people I know over in physics, none of them are paying for their tuition, and most get a small stipend. They just have to teach a few lab sections, and most assist with research. Some are even using part of their stipend to pay down their old undergrad debt.

Depends on the field of study, of course.

I'm about to go on the great search for which college I'm planning to attend. Consequently, that means I'm about to go from $42 in debt (my library fees) to as high as $80,000 - $100,000 in debt (said debt including grad school). First, I have to ask, is college worth getting shackled into debt for? And second, why should I have to go into debt to get trained for a job when, arguably, it would be in society's best interest to give me job training so that I can join the workforce and contribute to the nation's economy? Basically, why are the youth shackled to debt? Or is this how the elitists stay on top, by limiting higher education to those who can pay (preferably their own) and making slaves of the middle and lower class? I'm really criticizing higher education in the U.S., but I'd also like to hear about how higher education works in other countries (particularly Canada).

Here in Canada, I've been told University is gonna cost me about $6000 a year. I'm staying with my parents though so that's just tuition and books, nothing else.

Depending on how "good" (read expensive) of a college you plan on going to you can get out with little to no debt. The tuition at the college locally is like $2000 a semester, I can make $4000 a year plus figure out food/lodging. No problem.

You'll make up for all your expenses in the first two years. Or in the first year if you take into account only the tuition fees.

I forgot to mention room and boarding. I don't think food will be much of a problem, so it's probably not worth mentioning (unless someone can testify otherwise).

Well, get your training from the society then! It's called high school. There are also some essentially free community colleges.

Let's get something straight: American high schools don't train students for specialized future career paths (as opposed to the liceos in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Italy), which is still considered high school age-wise ).

Or you don't want to. You want to get a way higher quality training, from private or semi-private institutions, employing people whose time is valuable and could be used otherwise. You want it because you'll earn way more then.

I understand that. But doesn't that leave lower-class citizens at a disadvantage? Doesn't that perpetuate the cycle of poverty, by keeping the poor... poor and the rich rich?

Well - so why shouldn't you pay a small fraction of your future earnings back as a gratitude for this expensive service done to you?

Because society will benefit from my joining the workforce, regardless of whether or not I go to college. However, getting a higher education only guarantees me debt, not a job and a higher standard of life.

Depending on how "good" (read expensive) of a college you plan on going to you can get out with little to no debt. The tuition at the college locally is like $2000 a semester, I can make $4000 a year plus figure out food/lodging. No problem.

2k a semester is really decent. I would imagine its accredited, you could transfer credits up to another school if you needed to, yeah?

Very doable, and probably the same curriculum, books, etc, as the pricier schools out there.

I forgot to mention room and boarding. I don't think food will be much of a problem,
Room, boarding and food is stuff you would have to pay for anyway. And renting a studio would cost you more than the college r&b.


I understand that. But doesn't that leave lower-class citizens at a disadvantage? Doesn't that perpetuate the cycle of poverty, by keeping the poor... poor and the rich rich?
That's exactly what the student loans are for - so that even the poor can go to college and rise.


Because society will benefit from my joining the workforce, regardless of whether or not I go to college.
Exactly. Exactly. Everyone wants a cushy white-collar job. What the society lacks is skilled craftsmen. Community college graduates. But everyone wants to be a manager, no matter how low-level a "manager" he gets to be. The society will benefit more from a skilled technician than from another historian/political-studyist/whatever.


However, getting a higher education only guarantees me debt, not a job and a higher standard of life.
Well... yeah. It's an investment, no investment is without risk.

What profession specifically are you aiming for?

what area of study were you thinking of? what career path would you most like to take? some fields are greatly helped by going to the most expensive private school (for the connections) and some can be done by starting at community college and ending your degree at a state university.

i would never recommend amassing a huge debt unless you really need to.

2k a semester is really decent. I would imagine its accredited, you could transfer credits up to another school if you needed to, yeah?

Very doable, and probably the same curriculum, books, etc, as the pricier schools out there.

It's accredited. It's a big 12 school (like sports have anything to do with anything) the key is to live in state and live off campus.

What profession specifically are you aiming for?

what area of study were you thinking of? what career path would you most like to take? some fields are greatly helped by going to the most expensive private school (for the connections) and some can be done by starting at community college and ending your degree at a state university.

i would never recommend amassing a huge debt unless you really need to.

Well, I'd like to do something along the lines of translating/interpreting. I don't really know how I would go about that, though. Until recently, I was more into political science, but I don't think I have the moral flexibility to become a politician.

It's accredited. It's a big 12 school (like sports have anything to do with anything) the key is to live in state and live off campus.

Yeah, nice.

I"m a fan of living off campus. Dorm life is not as cool as Steven Baldwin's homoerotic performance opposite Josh Charles and what's her face would lead one to believe.

At one school, I did find the food plan worked out okay, though, but you can do that and still live off campus.

I recommend - a two year or community college for your AA/ASc degree, make sure you get appropriate counseling so you can maximize transfer units. During this time you can get a good idea of what your interests are so you can minimize the number of times you change your major and, thus, minimize the number of years you're in school. After community college, transfer to a good state college or university - the undergraduate education you get will be just as good, for the most part, as any high-priced private university. Get the best grades you can manage - try to maintain at least a 3.5 gpa. Save the pricy, elite schools for your graduate degree.

My daughter got her ASc. from Riverside Community College, her BSc. from Cal State San Bernardino and her MPH/Epidemiology from Loma Linda University. Be warned it will probably cost you a lot more than you expect. She had the GI bill to pay for her first three years, after that it was loans and grants - adding up to about $90,000.00.

Depending on your major, some employers will, as a bonus, pay for a percentage of your college debt.

Well, I'd like to do something along the lines of translating/interpreting. I don't really know how I would go about that, though. Until recently, I was more into political science, but I don't think I have the moral flexibility to become a politician.
Haha. And you were saying, 'it would be in society's best interest to give you job training as a politician'? Funny.

You'd be doing a great disservice to the society on that route, the last thing it needs is more politicians. Actually, it would be outrageous if such counterproductive education was state-funded.

Haha. And you were saying, 'it would be in society's best interest to give you job training as a politician'? Funny.

You'd be doing a great disservice to the society on that route, the last thing it needs is more politicians. Actually, it would be outrageous if such counterproductive education was state-funded.

Meh... While I do have utter contempt and skepticism of politicians on a general basis, I would definitely take a political science course to get a better understanding of politics.

I recommend - a two year or community college for your AA/ASc degree, make sure you get appropriate counseling so you can maximize transfer units. During this time you can get a good idea of what your interests are so you can minimize the number of times you change your major and, thus, minimize the number of years you're in school. After community college, transfer to a good state college or university - the undergraduate education you get will be just as good, for the most part, as any high-priced private university. Get the best grades you can manage - try to maintain at least a 3.5 gpa. Save the pricy, elite schools for your graduate degree.

My daughter got her ASc. from Riverside Community College, her BSc. from Cal State San Bernardino and her MPH/Epidemiology from Loma Linda University. Be warned it will probably cost you a lot more than you expect. She had the GI bill to pay for her first three years, after that it was loans and grants - adding up to about $90,000.00.

Depending on your major, some employers will, as a bonus, pay for a percentage of your college debt.

Thanks for the advice... I don't really understand most of what you said, but I'm going to print this out, show it to my counselor and ask him if you have the right idea (no offense) and then ask him to explain the acronyms to me.

First, I have to ask, is college worth getting shackled into debt for?

That's a question only you can answer for yourself. I was typing out a response and turned rather bloggy and long winded. Long story short, I didn't like the prospect that I'd be stuck in a program I didn't enjoy watching my money get sucked away. So it's been three years and now I'm finally getting interested in a 6 month trades program offered at a small time college. Still not interested in formal schooling, growing up or any of that shit however.

Exactly. Exactly. Everyone wants a cushy white-collar job. What the society lacks is skilled craftsmen. Community college graduates. But everyone wants to be a manager, no matter how low-level a "manager" he gets to be. The society will benefit more from a skilled technician than from another historian/political-studyist/whatever.

I'm not really into "cushy white-collar jobs;" sounds way too sedentary for me. I would like to get into engineering, specifically military engineering. However, I wouldn't make military engineering my profession, just something to have on hand as I go through life.

That's a question only you can answer for yourself. I was typing out a response and turned rather bloggy and long winded. Long story short, I didn't like the prospect that I'd be stuck in a program I didn't enjoy watching my money get sucked away. So it's been three years and now I'm finally getting interested in a 6 month trades program offered at a small time college. Still not interested in formal schooling, growing up or any of that shit however.

Umm... I'd actually like to read your "bloggy" reply. I like to hear other people's experience (particularly in a situation I'm most definitely about to encounter).

Higher Education? It depends.

Sounds vague and indecisive of an answer, I know, but there's a very important thing that some people haven't touched on very well - your overall work experience. People who graduate from colleges and universities don't get their desired for a few reasons. They might not have work experience in a field that's experience-dependent (like particular fields of engineering or writing, whether it be prose-related or technical), and therefore require additional education which may cost more. This undermines the importance of a post-secondary education.

Another factor you need to remember is that people have different things they look for in life. Particular jobs are only in demand in particular areas, and people are only willing to go for those jobs because it fits their own particular work habits and values. It does nothing if you're unwilling to move somewhere and spend months or years at a time in that particular place to get set up in terms of your occupation. This is especially true of many secondary and primary school teachers, as they tend to move either really south or up north in North America for jobs because of the low demand and high supply of the market.

Furthermore, you need to know whether your particular interest requires a degree. If they do, tough luck. Some occupations may slide because of sheer work experience and networking, but the amount of effort you put into it will require to be virtually the same as if you were in higher education. Education is structured to be the most valuable level of investment, and I do believe that it is entirely worth. However, there's a difference between investing in higher education, and automatically thinking that you will get a great job from the get-go. You need to be motivated and above all else, consider that there will be people who will have better credentials and more experience, so you need to be able to compete.

So yes, Higher Education is worth it.

I went to college, I got a BA, and I ended up going into business for myself. While college may be worth it for some people, I don't think it was worth it for me.

Make sure you do your research before you pick a school, or you'll be stuck in a school you hate, like me!

:)

Make sure you do your research before you pick a school, or you'll be stuck in a school you hate, like me!

:)

What school is this, now? *opens e-mail inbox full of college recruitment ads*

Let me ask you this, what are your hobbies? What do you enjoy doing?

I went to college, I got a BA, and I ended up going into business for myself. While college may be worth it for some people, I don't think it was worth it for me.

But are you able to discern the differences between your own personal, unbridled accomplishments and those that were college influenced? Sure, you went into business for yourself, but were there any values, ethics or information that you acquired from enrolling in college?

But are you able to discern the differences between your own personal, unbridled accomplishments and those that were college influenced? Sure, you went into business for yourself, but were there any values, ethics or information that you acquired from enrolling in college?

My BA was in History, I run a Pet Boarding business and I am training to become a dog trainer so that I can train dogs for my local police department as well as train therapy dogs and service dogs.

You tell me.

My BA was in History, I run a Pet Boarding business and I am training to become a dog trainer so that I can train dogs for my local police department as well as train therapy dogs and service dogs.

You tell me.

Well, I have no idea what courses you took, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, now would I?

Let me ask you this, what are your hobbies? What do you enjoy doing?

Well, I'm particularly interested in learning foreign languages. As I've stated earlier, I'd hopefully like to become a translator/interpreter (as a marketable skill).

Sure, you went into business for yourself, but were there any values, ethics or information that you acquired from enrolling in college?
If I may, I think he didn't. Or if he did, they were of little value.

Information is easily found in books, or from your subordinates.

Values taught by the college are the wrong ones. Especially wrong for business.

And ethics - well, these are just plain harmful. Whatever they are. An unethical person always has an advantage over an ethical one.


He's able to run a business despite having been to college, not thanks to.

If I may, I think he didn't. Or if he did, they were of little value.

Information is easily found in books, or from your subordinates.

Values taught by the college are the wrong ones. Especially wrong for business.

And ethics - well, these are just plain harmful. Whatever they are. An unethical person always has an advantage over an ethical one.


He's able to run a business despite having been to college, not thanks to.

Wow, just wow. I'm really sorry you think that you need to think that way. I can give you one example of a situation where an ethical businessperson always has the advantage over an unethical one - return business. An unethical businessperson can make a quick dollar, but once his/her customers realize they've been had, they won't come back. The ethical person may not make as much money as quickly, but once his/her customers realize they're being treated fairly, they'll return.

Wow, just wow. I'm really sorry you think that you need to think that way. I can give you one example of a situation where an ethical businessperson always has the advantage over an unethical one - return business. An unethical businessperson can make a quick dollar, but once his/her customers realize they've been had, they won't come back. The ethical person may not make as much money as quickly, but once his/her customers realize they're being treated fairly, they'll return.

The trick is to appear ethical but really be unethical.
If only Machiavelli had written a book on business.

An unethical businessperson can make a quick dollar, but once his/her customers realize they've been had, they won't come back. The ethical person may not make as much money as quickly, but once his/her customers realize they're being treated fairly, they'll return. No.

You don't need to be ethical to do that.
You just need to pretend to be ethical.
Act ethical, as long as it profits you. On occasion, act better than the ethics command you to - make yourself look extra-good.

Unethical doesn't equal stupid. An unethical person isn't the one who overcharges everyone three cents for the sake of it. It's the one who will overstep any bounds, for they have none, if that benefits them. The benefit doesn't have to be immediate.

Thus, an unethical person always has an advantage. They can act ethical or not act ethical or act seemingly ethical - whatever serves them best at the moment. An ethical person doesn't have this choice.

http://www.amazon.com/MANAGEMENT-MACHIAVELLI-Prescription-Success-Business/dp/0136026087
there you go Vault

Umm... I'd actually like to read your "bloggy" reply. I like to hear other people's experience (particularly in a situation I'm most definitely about to encounter).

Damn you!

Pretty much what happened was that all of my friends applied to universities, colleges or started a trade. They were excited; going to school, moving out it was the first big step towards real life. Fuck that. Like I said, I didn't enjoy the prospect of being stuck in a 4 or 5 year program that I may not like 2 years into it. So instead I called a phone number I had regarding a job in the oil patch.

Next thing I know, I'm riding around in the largest truck I've ever seen on ice roads cleaning sludge out of tanks. If you think you've seen or done a dirty, hard job it was nothing compared to this. By the next winter I had upgraded my license and had my own truck to drive, other new guys train. None of the messes oil companies threw at me seemed to phase me. It became mundane so I quit. But it was a great experience. I worked with a great crew of guys, learned a hell of a lot and essentially grew up.

So now I had this big pile of cash I'd bankrolled. All my friends in university said I should go to school, hang out with them, blow it all on tuition fees and cover charges on the big city clubs. School still didn't interest me though, so I said fuck it and bought a backpack and a tent.

I spent 4 months in Europe, starting in Ireland and worked my way slowly to the Mediterranean. I lived as cheep as a could. I hung out with buskers I met along the way. Camped in abandoned castles. Climbed mountains. I think the only thing I splurged on was scuba diving in the Mediterranean. I fell in love with a cute American girl. Then I broke my neck. Insurance flew me home first class. ;)

So I sat around home in neck brace, family and friends telling me how lucky it was that I could still walk and that recovery would take time. Again they all asked if I would go to school once I got the okay from the doctors. I'd be able to apply for the spring semester and finally start my real life. I bought a snowboard instead.

About three months after I got out of that neck brace I was living out of a dumpy little hotel room with 6 crazy Swedish skiers and we'd spend our days touring out into the backcountry riding some of the most intense terrain I've ever had the opportunity to experience. Again I learned so much, my riding progressed beyond what I thought I was capable of and it was an absolute waste of my time in the conventional sense.

So here I am now. It's been 3 years since high school and those 3 years have given me the opportunity to grow up and learn about the world around me. More importantly it's taught me a lot about myself, stuff I would never have learned in school. I am spontaneous, I dislike monotony and structure. I enjoy seeing what is 'out there', trying new things and going new places. Life is one big adventure to me and I just can't sit by and not dabble in all it has to offer.

I'm finally getting around to applying for a college program. It isn't a university degree or a college diploma to hang up on my wall. It's technical trade, wind turbine maintenance. I know, it sound hypocritical, going back to school. I don't feel that way. The program is short, 6 months, something that appeals to me. Tuition and books are relatively cheap. It's a growing industry that clearly has a place in our future. Hell, it's an international accreditation with job opportunities all over this globe. On top of all that, it is something I'm genuinely interested in.

There. That's my bloggy post.

First, I have to ask, is college worth getting shackled into debt for?

There is no rewind button to life. Living it full of fear and doubt will do nothing but satisfy the expectation that you made the wrong choice. Take chances, dive in head first no regrets and don't look back.

Damn you!

Pretty much what happened was that all of my friends applied to universities, colleges or started a trade. They were excited; going to school, moving out it was the first big step towards real life. Fuck that. Like I said, I didn't enjoy the prospect of being stuck in a 4 or 5 year program that I may not like 2 years into it. So instead I called a phone number I had regarding a job in the oil patch.

Next thing I know, I'm riding around in the largest truck I've ever seen on ice roads cleaning sludge out of tanks. If you think you've seen or done a dirty, hard job it was nothing compared to this. By the next winter I had upgraded my license and had my own truck to drive, other new guys train. None of the messes oil companies threw at me seemed to phase me. It became mundane so I quit. But it was a great experience. I worked with a great crew of guys, learned a hell of a lot and essentially grew up.

So now I had this big pile of cash I'd bankrolled. All my friends in university said I should go to school, hang out with them, blow it all on tuition fees and cover charges on the big city clubs. School still didn't interest me though, so I said fuck it and bought a backpack and a tent.

I spent 4 months in Europe, starting in Ireland and worked my way slowly to the Mediterranean. I lived as cheep as a could. I hung out with buskers I met along the way. Camped in abandoned castles. Climbed mountains. I think the only thing I splurged on was scuba diving in the Mediterranean. I fell in love with a cute American girl. Then I broke my neck. Insurance flew me home first class. ;)

So I sat around home in neck brace, family and friends telling me how lucky it was that I could still walk and that recovery would take time. Again they all asked if I would go to school once I got the okay from the doctors. I'd be able to apply for the spring semester and finally start my real life. I bought a snowboard instead.

About three months after I got out of that neck brace I was living out of a dumpy little hotel room with 6 crazy Swedish skiers and we'd spend our days touring out into the backcountry riding some of the most intense terrain I've ever had the opportunity to experience. Again I learned so much, my riding progressed beyond what I thought I was capable of and it was an absolute waste of my time in the conventional sense.

So here I am now. It's been 3 years since high school and those 3 years have given me the opportunity to grow up and learn about the world around me. More importantly it's taught me a lot about myself, stuff I would never have learned in school. I am spontaneous, I dislike monotony and structure. I enjoy seeing what is 'out there', trying new things and going new places. Life is one big adventure to me and I just can't sit by and not dabble in all it has to offer.

I'm finally getting around to applying for a college program. It isn't a university degree or a college diploma to hang up on my wall. It's technical trade, wind turbine maintenance. I know, it sound hypocritical, going back to school. I don't feel that way. The program is short, 6 months, something that appeals to me. Tuition and books are relatively cheap. It's a growing industry that clearly has a place in our future. Hell, it's an international accreditation with job opportunities all over this globe. On top of all that, it is something I'm genuinely interested in.

There. That's my bloggy post.



There is no rewind button to life. Living it full of fear and doubt will do nothing but satisfy the expectation that you made the wrong choice. Take chances, dive in head first no regrets and don't look back.

That's sort of what my kids did. They joined the Navy. My son travelled to Asia and Australia, learned electronics, learned to ski in Japan, learned to water ski in Thailand, went bungee jumping in the Phillipines, had Chinese food in Hong Kong. My daughter went to the Mediterranean - rode a camel in Egypt, learned Chinese at DLI, went spelunking in Spain, got a tattoo in Toulon. They both came back with the GI bill. My son used it to get a certificate in computer engineering, my daughter used it to get a Master's in Public Health. They both now have rewarding jobs that offer lots of travel and variety.

I apologize in advance because this reply is probably at far more length and with more personal anecdote than anyone wants to read, so please feel free to skip it, but since my major matches the likely major of the OP based off what he said, I feel compelled:

First, I attend a small state university and will graduate approximately 20,000 US dollars in debt. Second, my major is in Foreign Language with a French concentration and a German auxillary with a minor in international studies with concentrations in European Politics and Economics.

The first thing you should prepare yourself for is how to avoid debt. For the saavy student, the debt figures you quoted are absurdly high. To start with, a foreign language major doesn't have any real big name school, so skip the Ivy League 40k+ a year and out of state schools (unless you live in like Wyoming or something, in which case, by all means run run far away). My entire tuition, room/board, fees books, etc is less than $20,000 a year (that includes my OFF-CAMPUS 2 BR. Though my boyfriend helps pay for that, though we attend the same school in the same major so hey...).

Also, be prepared to work, at least part time and possibly full time during the summer. This has made the difference for me between taking additional debt and barely getting by versus where I'm at now, living reasonably, and being able to spend a year studying in France because I want to. This is especially true if you can work in a field that has some germane focus for your major (I'm a background screening specialist specializing in screenings in the francophone world, for example, which is a direct use of pretty much every skill I'm acquiring). Just be vigilante and STABLE in this regard.

Also, be proactive. Money is out there for the taking. Make the best possible grades in the hardest possible classes you have in high-school (though this may be too late now if you haven't been doing this already). Good grades and achievement are worth A LOT of scholarship money. Of course, don't ignore any other qualities you have toe. Seriously, I get 4,000 a year for being a gay atheist. There are people who exist to give you money for the most bizarre things you can imagine.

For your specific interest, consider going somewhere and specializing in a less common but vital national security language, such as Arabic, Chinese, Hindi, etc. The US government is giving out inordinate amounts of money for people studying ANY subject it considers in the interest of national security (this includes other things like chemical engineering, chemistry, physics, medicine, life sciences, etc besides just languages). Also, don't be afraid of looking at the embassy of nations that speak the language your interested in. As a good example, the French government will PAY something like 400 euros a month to students for housing costs to study French there, so long as you stay for at least 3 months. They also offer a program wherein you teach English at a French school wherein you get paid a salary, and you live in subsidized housing. I'm given to understand that China and Israel both offer something similar as well. You just have to ASK.

Last but not least, as for translation/interpretation and/or political science.

First off, political science isn't just for politicians. That said, it isn't for the naive or idealistic. Understanding law and the why political systems evolve in certain ways and why they work as they do is an extremely valuable skill. Or at least, it keeps my boss from bashing his bigoted useless head (and I mean that with humility and love) into a wall continuously as he fails to comprehend the socio-political structure of Sub-Saharan Francophone Africa.

Second, if you're really interested in becoming a translator and/or interpretor, have you grown up enough yet to handle it? There's a lot more involved than just being able to speak the language. Translators and interpretors also need to be masters of the place of their chosen language in the world, masters of general linguistics, capable of memorizing the geographies of the nations that speak their chosen language, empathetic enough to be able to slip into the cultural mindset of each of those nations, and analytical and detached enough to be able to analyze the socio-political climates, influences and institutions of those nations as well. There's a lot about communicating in a language that we don't consciously think about or realize is there until we try to communicate in another one and then we realize what a profound miracle it is that we're ever able to comprehend one another at all.

In my quest to study French, my work experience made the issues of that previous paragraph necessary. Just in trying to comprehend and then translate a single court case from France I need geography to be able to place the events in a location, politics and culture to tell me what the crime is in practical terms, literature to translate the literary allusions and turn of phrase that are employed in learned writing, and modern culture and socio-economic information to be able to decide how grave the offense is within the French legal system all in addition to being able to literally translate the words on the page (a person who can only do that will produce an unreadable text that my computer can surpass). I'm not trying to frighten anyone, but I don't want anyone to have false illusions that foreign language study is an easy "stupid BA degree" that doesn't require work. Try reading French literature in the native French, it's even more demanding than the above.

Now that I've been exceedingly longwinded, I guess I should some it up. To start with, I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of debt you'll end up with, but you need to do some work to graduate with less debt. As to whether or not its worth it, you need to evaluate whether or not you're really ready to grow up and expend that much effort on learning something to then turn around and expend at least as much effort on a daily basis if you want to to be of any use.

I recommend - a two year or community college for your AA/ASc degree, make sure you get appropriate counseling so you can maximize transfer units. During this time you can get a good idea of what your interests are so you can minimize the number of times you change your major and, thus, minimize the number of years you're in school. After community college, transfer to a good state college or university - the undergraduate education you get will be just as good, for the most part, as any high-priced private university. Get the best grades you can manage - try to maintain at least a 3.5 gpa. Save the pricy, elite schools for your graduate degree.

My daughter got her ASc. from Riverside Community College, her BSc. from Cal State San Bernardino and her MPH/Epidemiology from Loma Linda University. Be warned it will probably cost you a lot more than you expect. She had the GI bill to pay for her first three years, after that it was loans and grants - adding up to about $90,000.00.

Depending on your major, some employers will, as a bonus, pay for a percentage of your college debt.

I doubt I'll agree with ASD very often, but this is good advice. Get your credits as cheap as possible for prerequisite/general study classes and get an associate of arts/associate of science/similar degree that can transfer to another institution. Depending on your career path of choice, you may not need to move beyond the community college level of education. A fancy diploma from a major university may not be worth the debt it may bring, after all.

*edit* MAKE SURE YOUR INSTITUTION OF CHOICE IS ACCREDITED AND THE CREDITS ARE ACCEPTED AT ANY MAJOR COLLEGE YOU ARE CONSIDERING!!! I know a guy who went to a trade school for two years and found most of his classes had to be re-taken because the credits didn't transfer. Be careful of degrees from institutions like this! (http://www2.itt-tech.edu/index.cfm?code=TFL-INK-2) The instruction quality may be good, but credits that don't transfer are wasted time if you plan on moving to another academic institution during your course of study. research and verify everything.

I'm 20 and a civil engineer major at a fairly small and cheap school that has a damn good reputation on the public level for civil engineers.

Tuition costs me about $1200 per quarter, and along with about $400 in books and few other costs (I live with my parents, but I generally pay for my gas and phone, even if I've gotten behind on other expenses), it costs me about $5k even to go to school for a year.

Last I checked, US News (IIRC) ranked my university 15th in public universities in the country in Civil Engineering. Our program rivals those of the big colleges around us (we're but a 30 minute drive from UCLA, USC, CSLB, UC Davis, et al.) and even beats them without surprise.

Grads, the last time I heard, were being offered $70k a year straight out of school, giving their passage of the EIT exam and would be offered a raise pending the passing of their PE exam. Given how the demand for engineers seems to project upwards, given the amount of works that the government has funded, this may just go up...

I never finished college. It was the biggest waste of time and money in my life. I wouldn't go back even if someone put a gun to my head.

I'm about to go on the great search for which college I'm planning to attend. Consequently, that means I'm about to go from $42 in debt (my library fees) to as high as $80,000 - $100,000 in debt (said debt including grad school). First, I have to ask, is college worth getting shackled into debt for? And second, why should I have to go into debt to get trained for a job when, arguably, it would be in society's best interest to give me job training so that I can join the workforce and contribute to the nation's economy? Basically, why are the youth shackled to debt? Or is this how the elitists stay on top, by limiting higher education to those who can pay (preferably their own) and making slaves of the middle and lower class? I'm really criticizing higher education in the U.S., but I'd also like to hear about how higher education works in other countries (particularly Canada).

EDIT: Please mention where you go to college (nation or state).

education should always be free. sadly, mine (and that of my generation) wasn't for higher education, but it was still heavily subsidised. i'm only about £3k in debt after mine, but i only stayed for 2 years, that £3k is a government loan though, meaning its linked with inflation to be 0% interest.

was it worth it? for that price, yes, even if i didn't finish it was a valuable experience. for $80k+, fuck no. at that price i'm surprised anybody goes through with it in the US, but clearly it is going to be a lot easier for wealthier families to afford, which definitely goes against the grain for me.

however, i would also add that having been in full time work for about 5 years now, i have learned far more valuable skills and matured a lot more than i did at university. maybe work/real life is just better for me. to each their own


edit: in this country, though, the government aims to get 40% (or was it 50?) into higher education of some sort. with that many people having degrees, it devalues them. the only people i know, of my friends, who will really benefit from their degree are a soon-to-be dentist (starting at £30k pa, up to £50-£60k pa after 2 years) and a soon-to-be surgeon. everyone else got in debt and found their degree was a worthless piece of paper that didn't help them get a job at all. having experience (and no degree) in many fields is just as good as having a degree, if not better, when degrees are so common. i've said it before, and i'll say it again, a common joke amongst the people i work with (entrepreneurs and owner/managers of businesses) is; "so you have an astrophysics degree? good for you, go mop the floors."
so the availability of higher education, from my experience, devaules the point of having a degree on an individual level. on the other hand, though, how can one deny people the chance (i daresay right) to better themselves through higher education?

I never finished college. It was the biggest waste of time and money in my life. I wouldn't go back even if someone put a gun to my head.

Brown's recruiting budget is down this year. They're using knives.

I'm really criticizing higher education in the U.S., but I'd also like to hear about how higher education works in other countries (particularly Canada).

EDIT: Please mention where you go to college (nation or state).
Finland, I'm reapplying to a University due to originally choosing way wrong line of study.


The cost per semester is around 50 euros (+ study material [books et al which aren't borrowable]) which basically covers the healthcare plan (eg. fixing a dental cavity costs less than 10 euros), the actual education is technically free of charge.

Then there are student benefits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_benefit) too: Actual money handed out by the government for studying.

btw. Studying at an uni is free for foreigners also so... ;)

Finland, I'm reapplying to a University due to originally choosing way wrong line of study.


The cost per semester is around 50 euros (+ study material [books et al which aren't borrowable]) which basically covers the healthcare plan (eg. fixing a dental cavity costs less than 10 euros), the actual education is technically free of charge.

Then there are student benefits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_benefit) too: Actual money handed out by the government for studying.

btw. Studying at an uni is free for foreigners also so... ;)

*sigh* You Europeans have it good over there... I've always wondered why people used to pack around Europe after high school.

Yeah, I know some colleges/universities in Europe offer free tertiary education to foreign nationals. Since I've been taking an Italian language course, I had considered going to Italy for university, but I'm not too sure because I also hear that the standards are raised for foreign students. Honestly, I'm not too confident in myself as a student to maintain higher grades, especially in a different country.

I took 5 years off school after high school, stayed living with my dad, went travelling, explored the world and myself a little bit. Got a decent paying job, saved enough, climbed high enough that now I'm making enough to more or less comfortably be able to afford school plus now living on my own if I save dilligently.

My tuition costs me about $1200 a semester, but I'm also working full time, school part time. I don't like the idea of debt or being without an income, so this is the road I'm taking. I also plan to take a year off in the middle to live and work in another country, before coming back and finishing up my degree full time.

Ok here's the gist of it. First I go to a community college in Missouri. Second, we just addressed this issue in class, essentialy, there is a high demand for higher education so as a result of this, price goes up (that's why higher education shackles you in debt). 3rd, as a result of your higher education you will contribute to your country more than you would if you just started now, so it is in the countries best intrest for you to go to college rather than not. And finally, yes it is worth it because in the end you will make more money than you would without that education.

The combined effects of studying and alcohol makes the college students where I live weak and pliable. Just trick any you find into giving you their knowledge for free.

And don't worry about a diploma or any of that jazz. A good desktop publishing program may be expensive, but nowhere near the cost of tuition. Besides, this way allows you to choose the font you want, something people who pay to attend "good" schools can't do.

Let's get something straight: American high schools don't train students for specialized future career paths (as opposed to the liceos in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Italy), which is still considered high school age-wise ).

Don't be a menace by being blatantly wrong, it's called "vocational education", and American high schools do offer it. Ranging from automotive technology, fashion to food service, electronics technology and even food service and hospitality, you can get this sort of training from an American high school.

Well, I'd like to do something along the lines of translating/interpreting. I don't really know how I would go about that, though. Until recently, I was more into political science, but I don't think I have the moral flexibility to become a politician.

Uh, political science really doesn't have a whole lot to do with becoming a politician...

I'm a faithful, independent and professional bureaucrat and civil servant, whose career is independent of those filthy, filthy politicians.

1. $80,000 for undergrad AND grad school? Dream on, my child! My mom's grad loan was $40K TEN YEARS AGO.

2. College doesn't prepare you to enter the workforce, it prepares you for a specialized field. The government doesn't feel it necessary to fund that, since the rewards of a higher salary will compel enough people to shell out the necessary tuition on their own.

If you're having to pay or go into debt for grad school you're probably doing something wrong...

Yeah I'm going to be about 20k in debt at the end of my course. Suck it up, you will earn more than people didn't go.

Don't be a menace by being blatantly wrong, it's called "vocational education", and American high schools do offer it. Ranging from automotive technology, fashion to food service, electronics technology and even food service and hospitality, you can get this sort of training from an American high school.

Well, I'm certain such "vocational education" is not offered in New York high schools, which is to say around where I am. In NY high schools, a lot of emphasis is placed on our state's standardized tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_Examinations#Current_Regents_Exam_List), which is for the most part academic. I have to admit, I don't know much about high schools in other states and whether they offer vocational education. And since NY has a relatively incompetent education system, I will also admit that I may be wrong in generalizing vocational education in American schools.

Uh, political science really doesn't have a whole lot to do with becoming a politician...

Regardless, it's definitely relevant.

1. $80,000 for undergrad AND grad school? Dream on, my child! My mom's grad loan was $40K TEN YEARS AGO.

2. College doesn't prepare you to enter the workforce, it prepares you for a specialized field. The government doesn't feel it necessary to fund that, since the rewards of a higher salary will compel enough people to shell out the necessary tuition on their own.

When I did the OP at the time, I honestly believed the $80,000 - $100,000 range to be true. So in retrospect, I'll admit I did exaggerate the cost. That's why I created this thread: to see if my perception of higher education is realistic (so feel free to correct any misconceptions I have; I'll also take (constructive) criticism). So from I've learned, debt incurred from higher education doesn't seem to be as bad I thought it be.
But when I asked my english teacher about his under-graduate debt, he told me that he's still in debt. Granted, high school teachers don't have the highest salary. But still, hearing that really worried me and moved me to question the financial cost of college.

Just wondering, but doesn't college prepare you to enter the workforce by giving training you into a professional? I mean, you can't have a specialized field that isn't in the workforce.

If you're having to pay or go into debt for grad school you're probably doing something wrong...

And what would that be? There are many perfectly intelligent, well-educated people who are too poor to pay without taking out loans and too well-off to qualify for grants. Their grades and GRE scores were good enough to gain acceptance, but not good enough to get stipends. What were they doing wrong?

When I did the OP at the time, I honestly believed the $80,000 - $100,000 range to be true. So in retrospect, I'll admit I did exaggerate the cost. That's why I created this thread: to see if my perception of higher education is realistic (so feel free to correct any misconceptions I have; I'll also take (constructive) criticism). So from I've learned, debt incurred from higher education doesn't seem to be as bad I thought it be.
But when I asked my english teacher about his under-graduate debt, he told me that he's still in debt. Granted, high school teachers don't have the highest salary. But still, hearing that really worried me and moved me to question the financial cost of college.

Oh, no, you have me wrong--I think it'll cost you MORE. Tuition goes up every year, and by the time you get through undergrad and grad school--a minimum of 6 years, often 7--you'll have seen 7 tuition hikes. $80K is not at all overestimating.

And what would that be? There are many perfectly intelligent, well-educated people who are too poor to pay without taking out loans and too well-off to qualify for grants. Their grades and GRE scores were good enough to gain acceptance, but not good enough to get stipends. What were they doing wrong?

I'm wondering the same thing. I had to get loans for all four years of undergrad, though I paid for my year and a half of credential training with money I saved working after undergrad. My family's too well-off to get any grants, but all of our money is in the equity in our house--we certainly didn't have $25K or whatever the total came to for school. I got a $1,000 "governor's scholarship" for my score on the PSAT, but didn't make National Merit, didn't play a sport, etc. Perhaps there were some obscure scholarships out there I didn't know about (likely, really), but I researched them and there just was NOT that kind of money out there for someone in my situation.

NOTHING is worth getting shackled into debt. and there ARE other ways of going to collage.

as for which collage, the closest cheapest that teaches subjects your interested in, and has at least some credentialled compitence in doing so.

then round up all the grants and fee wavers you can get your paws on.

On a semi-related note, are there any meaningful, (relatively) well-paying degrees that don't require a piece of paper?

Just wondering, but doesn't college prepare you to enter the workforce by giving training you into a professional?

depends on what you're doing. if its vocational and you need the degree to get into the field, then yes. otherwise, in my experience, you tend to learn the theory at university, but only when you enter the workforce can you learn how to put it into practice. depends on the uni, the job/field, you, etc, though. that's why i've argued on this thread that having a number of years of practial working experience can make up for not having a degree in many fields.

it also depends what you mean by 'professional'
if you mean the traditional professional jobs like lawyer, doctor, architecht, etc, then yes the degree would train you to enter the workforce as its vocational and you need the qualification to work in those fields. but if you just mean 'being professional' then, in business at least, there's a massive difference between the academic way of doing things and the professional business/commercial way of doing things. university doesn't train you for that at all (in my/friends' experience)

I have been incredibly lucky with my education - I came out of my masters with only a couple of grand debt to family, which I swiftly repaid and I have managed to get a scholarship for my PhD. I did have to work my way throughout my BSc and MSc, which was difficult but in the end gave me good experience of office work (enough to know I don't want to ever do an admin job again) and a work environment I would not have otherwise gotten. Since I managed both a 1st and a Distinction on my MSc it didn't seem to have affected my results either.

This said I would not have begrudged getting a student loan if I could have (since I counted as an EU student I couldn't) since they only do inflation rate interest and have reasonable repayment terms. I do thoroughly oppose however what the universities are trying to push through to raise the cap even higher and thus allow 'price competition'. I am a firm believer that a) the government should offer appropriate support to students to go to university (even if it does need repaying, it's important student loans remain government provided) and b) price should never be a deciding factor in whether I can go to a particular university - only my academic ability should decide that.

I would say to do it. I struggled with the idea of going into debt, myself, but decided that bettering myself as a person (via acquiring a formal education) was worth it. Unfortunately, such a thing is not free, but it should be, and also lifelong.

Going to college to get a job wasn't a concern, there isn't anything worth doing for a living.

I"m a fan of living off campus. Dorm life is not as cool as Steven Baldwin's homoerotic performance opposite Josh Charles and what's her face would lead one to believe. Lara Flynn Boyle.

Seriously, I get 4,000 a year for being a gay atheist.*is intrigued*

NOTHING is worth getting shackled into debt. and there ARE other ways of going to collage.

as for which collage, the closest cheapest that teaches subjects your interested in, and has at least some credentialled compitence in doing so.

then round up all the grants and fee wavers you can get your paws on.

This is the nice thing about the UK system. Sure, I'm going to have debts, but that's basically constant regardless of which University I go to. There's no need to make the tradeoff between quality and price.

If I was in the states, I'd need to say "well, I can try to go to MIT, for $40000 a year or however much, or go to the state uni, which is cheaper but gives a worse education". As I'm in the UK, I get to go anywhere that will take me - from Cambridge (incredible) to Sheffield Hallam (incredibly bad) for basically the same cost.

I'm about to go on the great search for which college I'm planning to attend. Consequently, that means I'm about to go from $42 in debt (my library fees) to as high as $80,000 - $100,000 in debt (said debt including grad school). First, I have to ask, is college worth getting shackled into debt for? And second, why should I have to go into debt to get trained for a job when, arguably, it would be in society's best interest to give me job training so that I can join the workforce and contribute to the nation's economy? Basically, why are the youth shackled to debt? Or is this how the elitists stay on top, by limiting higher education to those who can pay (preferably their own) and making slaves of the middle and lower class? I'm really criticizing higher education in the U.S., but I'd also like to hear about how higher education works in other countries (particularly Canada).

EDIT: Please mention where you go to college (nation or state).

In an ideal world all education would be free, but seeing as many goverments the world over do not currently have a glut of cash, and seeing that teachers, cleaning staff, library staff, maintianance staff and any other staff needed to run a place of education, all need paying then the cash has to come from somewhere.

Are you then after a higher education for free so that you can better your own situation and enable you to make pot loads of cash at a latter date? How does that help society again?

In an ideal world all education would be free, but seeing as many goverments the world over do not currently have a glut of cash, and seeing that teachers, cleaning staff, library staff, maintianance staff and any other staff needed to run a place of education, all need paying then the cash has to come from somewhere.

Are you then after a higher education for free so that you can better your own situation and enable you to make pot loads of cash at a latter date? How does that help society again?

I personally would be happy to pay a graduate tax on my university education, indeed I'd probably prefer that to a student loan both because of what debt means both practically and psychologically and because I feel it would affect people more fairly based on income. More, it would ensure that universities don't try and use price as opposed to quality of education for attracting students (as some less good ones do now and it looks like a lot of universities want to do if they remove the fee cap) and mean that I am helping build our universities for the future. BUT it would have to be ensured all the money raised by the tax went to support Higher Education.

I know universities need money but how they are paid for should ensure that cost does not become a deciding factor in where or if people go to university, only desire/relevance to future career and academic ability.

I personally would be happy to pay a graduate tax on my university education, indeed I'd probably prefer that to a student loan both because of what debt means both practically and psychologically and because I feel it would affect people more fairly based on income. More, it would ensure that universities don't try and use price as opposed to quality of education for attracting students (as some less good ones do now and it looks like a lot of universities want to do if they remove the fee cap) and mean that I am helping build our universities for the future. BUT it would have to be ensured all the money raised by the tax went to support Higher Education.

I know universities need money but how they are paid for should ensure that cost does not become a deciding factor in where or if people go to university, only desire/relevance to future career and academic ability.

That does seem like a sensible idea, but you know that old line about priceing out those from poor backgrounds no longer holds any water.

Student grants are avaliable to all students who wish to attend higher education, rich and poor alike.

That does seem like a sensible idea, but you know that old line about priceing out those from poor backgrounds no longer holds any water.

Student grants are avaliable to all students who wish to attend higher education, rich and poor alike.

Currently yes, however given the cost of living there are nonetheless students who will study at universities nearer home so they can still live with parents. This is because, despite the levels of the student loans, they will often not be enough to fully support you - especially if your parental income is just over the cut-offs for enhanced grants.

Furthermore, should universities get the lifting of the gap they desire the level of debt could sky-rocket which will not only be off-putting to a lot of people but will also give new graduates an added financial burden that many can ill-afford, especially if they do not necessarily have the parental safety-net many of those of richer background have. I know of many people who go back home to live with parents after graduating whilst they try and find a job - a degree will no longer guarentee one.

Overall I'm more or less happy with the current system, it has managed to find a medium which though not ideal, works. But I do fear that the universities are just going to keep pushing at the cap and eventually we'll have a market-based system like the US, and I do not believe that will be beneficial for anyone except university vice-chancellors.

And what would that be? There are many perfectly intelligent, well-educated people who are too poor to pay without taking out loans and too well-off to qualify for grants. Their grades and GRE scores were good enough to gain acceptance, but not good enough to get stipends. What were they doing wrong?

Okay so maybe saying having to pay was a little much, but having to go into debt still stands. As to what they did wrong... you mentioned it, their grades were too low. And if they were too well off to qualify for grants they won’t have into debt. Now if they are they were to poor to pay without loans… Maybe they could have chosen an undergrad degree(s) that wouldn’t have been useless or at least less then desired so as to allow them to maintain a sufficient income. That is to say working on campus doing whatever, or having a job in a field related to your major should allow them to pay for all but the most expensive grad programs, and those are often the ones that give the most to their students in need as it is.

Choosing to go into debt is different than having to.

Choosing to go into debt is different than having to.


Most assuredly,but I still find this senatce a little odd.

Debt and living are kinda inseprable, unless one lives at home with mum and dad for their whole lives, rent and bills need to be paid, and of course, these are always in arears.

It maybe be a little odd but it is true, mostly anyways. At least for what was being talked about.
Almost everyone will go into debt when buying a house and most will go into debt when buy a car, at least if its new. Some will even go into debt when buying the latest and greatest whatever. That however is still a choice and they could chose to do without most of those, or get cheaper versions or models of whatever it is they wish to purchase.
Education however shouldn't have to be one of those things due to when it happens in the course of one’s life, as well as the opportunities given to people to avoid it.

Oh and all of this is in relation to long term debt, not short term debt.

*is intrigued*

Indeed, tell us more! I'm a half-gay atheist--think I could get $2,000?

Okay so maybe saying having to pay was a little much, but having to go into debt still stands. As to what they did wrong... you mentioned it, their grades were too low. And if they were too well off to qualify for grants they won’t have into debt. Now if they are they were to poor to pay without loans… Maybe they could have chosen an undergrad degree(s) that wouldn’t have been useless or at least less then desired so as to allow them to maintain a sufficient income. That is to say working on campus doing whatever, or having a job in a field related to your major should allow them to pay for all but the most expensive grad programs, and those are often the ones that give the most to their students in need as it is.

Choosing to go into debt is different than having to.

You're right; I did choose to go into debt. I chose to take on government loans for school, which generally have the lowest interest of any loans you will ever get, rather than ask my parents to sell our house and liquidate our main cache of money--the equity in our house.

My grades certainly weren't low--I graduated with a 4.0, took Honors and AP classes, earned Honors and High Honors on every state test and got a 1450 in the SATs--but I went to a school where there were 17 valedictorians with 4.5 GPAs, so I wasn't eligible for many scholarships, like National Merit, that I may have been at another school. So my second mistake (well, my parents' mistake) was going to an excellent school.

So, okay--I could be debt-free. But I think the way I did it was certainly the "smarter" way.

Are you then after a higher education for free so that you can better your own situation and enable you to make pot loads of cash at a latter date? How does that help society again?

Honestly, I've developed a certain dislike for capitalism. I really don't want to play in this game that everyone seems to be playing, this rat race to make as much money as possible. Free education, like many have said, would be ideal, but it's not possible in this world. I'm really worried about the possibility that I could amass a massive amount of debt with no way to pay it all back. To me, it seems that society shackles the youth to debt as some perverse means of initiation into higher education, so that they will be motivated to play the capitalist game (which, needless to say, disgusts me). So no, I'm not simply looking to "better my situation," and then make "pot loads of cash."

Honestly, I've developed a certain dislike for capitalism. I really don't want to play in this game that everyone seems to be playing, this rat race to make as much money as possible. Free education, like many have said, would be ideal, but it's not possible in this world. I'm really worried about the possibility that I could amass a massive amount of debt with no way to pay it all back. To me, it seems that society shackles the youth to debt as some perverse means of initiation into higher education, so that they will be motivated to play the capitalist game (which, needless to say, disgusts me). So no, I'm not simply looking to "better my situation," and then make "pot loads of cash."


Meh! Like it or loathe it Capitalism IS the way the world works. As long as we have the concept of money, I guess it will always be this way. We must therefore all play the game to some extent in order to live.

Well, I'm certain such "vocational education" is not offered in New York high schools, which is to say around where I am. In NY high schools, a lot of emphasis is placed on our state's standardized tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_Examinations#Current_Regents_Exam_List), which is for the most part academic. I have to admit, I don't know much about high schools in other states and whether they offer vocational education. And since NY has a relatively incompetent education system, I will also admit that I may be wrong in generalizing vocational education in American schools.

After a quick review, I've been able to determine that there are, indeed, some schools in New York State which offer vocational education--regardless of a focus towards a test.



Regardless, it's definitely relevant.

What's relevant? That you don't want to be a politician? I used my political science degree to study public sector administrative processes in the national security community in graduate school. I will never have to run for office, and my job is not held hostage by an elected official. I studied a discipline more akin to economics with a few motivational wrenches thrown into the mess.

I'm about to go on the great search for which college I'm planning to attend. Consequently, that means I'm about to go from $42 in debt (my library fees) to as high as $80,000 - $100,000 in debt (said debt including grad school). First, I have to ask, is college worth getting shackled into debt for? And second, why should I have to go into debt to get trained for a job when, arguably, it would be in society's best interest to give me job training so that I can join the workforce and contribute to the nation's economy? Basically, why are the youth shackled to debt? Or is this how the elitists stay on top, by limiting higher education to those who can pay (preferably their own) and making slaves of the middle and lower class? I'm really criticizing higher education in the U.S., but I'd also like to hear about how higher education works in other countries (particularly Canada).

EDIT: Please mention where you go to college (nation or state).


I'm going to approach this from a slightly different issue as I in fact teach undergraduates and MA students as a fellow at a (British) university, and have been involved in higher education in the USA (undergraduate), UK (postgraduate), and Australia (post-doctoral fellow). So I've been about as far in higher education as it's possible to go, and am still involved - though now from the other end.

1) "First, I have to ask, is college worth getting shackled into debt for?" That depends on what you want to do with your life. If you want to be an academic like me, then yes it is (and I'm going to be paying off my debt for another decade yet - into my 50s). If you want to be a doctor or lawyer, then yes. If you want to be a military engineer, as hinted at by previous posts, then, well, maybe not so much. Others here have posted perfectly good advice that I won't re-hash, but if you do want to follow a career in military engineering, then it strikes me as a logical decision to actually enter the US military, and then take advantage of the college tuition support offered by the military. Even if you later decide that military engineering in the private sector is your preferred career path, rather than military engineering within the military, having the actual hands-on first hand military experience can surely only be a benefit in the longer term.

Unless, of course, you get shipped to Afghanistan to build a hydroelectric dam. In which case my only advice is to learn fluent Arabic and/or Persian and grow a beard (works for my colleagues currently in Kabul).


2) "second, why should I have to go into debt to get trained for a job when, arguably, it would be in society's best interest to give me job training so that I can join the workforce and contribute to the nation's economy?" Well, a good anti-capitalist like you might note that it suits a Reaganite deregulated capitalist economy to only offer quality education to those who can prove their competitive worth (through proving their ability by successfully competing for scholarships or by simply having the money anyway) while inculculating an acceptance of a culture of consumerist debt in the next generation of consumers.

3) "Basically, why are the youth shackled to debt? See above. If we're all encouraged to spend beyond our means from our very first major adult decision, then we accept more easily the core concept of deregulated liberal capitalism that accumulating debt to acquire what we might not need is a natural state of affairs (and look where that's managed to get us) - though I'd argue that this is a side 'benefit' rather than the actual goal of tuition fees. A more sympathetic liberal capitalist would argue that the top universities provide a premium product, and have therefore earned the right to charge a premium rate, much as a bottle of Chateau Margaux costs considerably more than table wine from Michigan. They would probably follow that up by arguing that the more expensive education from the premium institution increases your chances (though by no means guarantees) of earning more money later in life by trading off the reputation of that institution.

4) "Or is this how the elitists stay on top, by limiting higher education to those who can pay (preferably their own) and making slaves of the middle and lower class?" Given the differences between tuition levels at different institutions I think that's a more American phenomenon, though I think your use of 'slave' might overplay things slightly. But so long as top-level private American institutions allow for legacy places for select undergraduates, their claim to have democratised entry through scholarships rings a little hollow.

In Britain and Australia, tuition fees are currently equal for all institutions. That's right, you pay the same whether you're going to Oxford University or Portsmouth University (with apologies to students in my native city). Assuming you can afford the base tuition rate, your ability to study at a specific university is based on your academic ability, not your ability to pay for a specific course. As Eofaerwic notes, there's been some noises in the UK about allowing variation of fees, which would essentially have the impact of doubling tuition rates at the very top universities to c.£7000 a year (US$10500), and institute the very financial discrimination that you find so objectionable. Up until the 1990s, British university courses were free (though there were comparatively fewer courses available); Australian university places were free for about 30 years between Whitlam and Howard.


But that's so much guff. The basic answer to 'is it worth going so far in debt for university' is 'only you know the answer, and it depends on what you want out of life'.

...Portsmouth University (with apologies to students in my native city).

lol @ Pompey :D

lol @ Pompey :D

And I have to move down there :(

Not actually IN pompey, but Fareham ain't all that much better.

And I have to move down there :(

Not actually IN pompey, but Fareham ain't all that much better.

It could be worse.

It could be Southampton....


(with apologies to other readers for the Hampshire thread hijack).

It could be worse.

It could be Southampton....


(with apologies to other readers for the Hampshire thread hijack).

Well I should be thankful for small mercies :p