NationStates Jolt Archive

The basics of my question is that it seems to me that the entire Christian belief of Salvation which is all that many Christians focus on is based on a few verses, whereas the entirety of Jesus's message and ministry as HE taught and lived it was different. By listening to most Christians talk today you would think that Jesus's whole ministry should have been him going around saying, "If you don't believe I am the Father, then you are going to hell" which he NEVER directly said. If this was so important, and the entire purpose of his life was to tell people that he was the ONLY way to get to God from there on out then why did he not specify this throughout his Ministry? What you see many people lacking in general though is Love and Unconditional Love, which many preachers yelling about Hell and Salvation only do not seem to get.

Imagine you were someone who did not know anything, 0 about Christianity but you picked up the Holy Bible. Just looking at it independent, the general message of Jesus's life and teachings (in my view) would NOT be how it is portrayed. Or imagine if you had ONLY Jesus's words, but none of the Apostles commentary.

For example:

Luke 10:25-28 KJV
25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Matthew 22:36-4 KJV
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28-31 KJV
28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

1 Peter 4:8 KJV
8And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

1 John 3:14 KJV
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1 John 4:11-12
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The Entire Ministry of Jesus Christ seems to be about Loving God and loving others.

Why has the entire Ministry been summed up as "Believe in Jesus, go to Heaven. Not believe in Jesus, and go to hell"? Or at least be very uncertain of your salvation.

Some answers may be that most Christians are in fact Paulians, but Paul disagreed with even the other Apostles.

Because many people feel the need to be able to say they are better than everyone else?

The Entire Ministry of Jesus Christ seems to be about Loving God and loving others.

Why has the entire Ministry been summed up as "Believe in Jesus, go to Heaven. Not believe in Jesus, and go to hell"? Or at least be very uncertain of your salvation.

Basicly because the Old testament pretty much boils down to "Do what God orders, or suffer His sadistic wrath".

Jesus can protect you from the God beast. If you do not follow Jesus, you are prey.

...because no matter how much you wave around the carrot of heaven, it's the stick of hell that gets people donating.

Basicly because the Old testament pretty much boils down to "Do what God orders, or suffer His sadistic wrath".

Jesus can protect you from the God beast. If you do not follow Jesus, you are prey.

Jebus ain't in the old testament.

Jebus ain't in the old testament.

The Bible consists of both the Old and New Testaments.

Jebus ain't in the old testament.

Correct. The old testament threatens, the new testament tells you how to avoid the looming threat. God - not Satan - is the threat, Jezus is the way to safety without submitting yourself entirely to fear. Hence the"follow Jesus or be doomed" teachings.

Islam and the Mormons improved this even further.

Correct. The old testament threatens, the new testament tells you how to avoid the looming threat. God - not Satan - is the threat, Jezus is the way to safety without submitting yourself entirely to fear. Hence the"follow Jesus or be doomed" teachings.

Islam and the Mormons improved this even further.

Improved? Not the word I would use. And what's up with you guys and your Z's?

Because many people feel the need to be able to say they are better than everyone else?

True, which is my point that it seems Christianity directly contradicts the life of Christ and what he was trying to convey.

Jesus seems like a great teacher if you read his direct teachings, but then when you get to his followers it is a wonder what happened.

Jesus seems like a great teacher if you read his direct teachings, but then when you get to his followers it is a wonder what happened.

Gandhi said it best: I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Gandhi said it best: I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

He also said: "An eye for an eye only make the whole world blind."

Edit: I know that's irrelevant, but meh.

Improved? Not the word I would use.

"Explored this avenue of manipulation even further" then

And what's up with you guys and your Z's?

Good question. I found myself mixing spellings from different languages several times today already.

Are we ignoring John 14:6 or do we think it means something other than what it says?

The basics of my question is that it seems to me that the entire Christian belief of Salvation which is all that many Christians focus on is based on a few verses, whereas the entirety of Jesus's message and ministry as HE taught and lived it was different. By listening to most Christians talk today you would think that Jesus's whole ministry should have been him going around saying, "If you don't believe I am the Father, then you are going to hell" which he NEVER directly said. If this was so important, and the entire purpose of his life was to tell people that he was the ONLY way to get to God from there on out then why did he not specify this throughout his Ministry? What you see many people lacking in general though is Love and Unconditional Love, which many preachers yelling about Hell and Salvation only do not seem to get.

Imagine you were someone who did not know anything, 0 about Christianity but you picked up the Holy Bible. Just looking at it independent, the general message of Jesus's life and teachings (in my view) would NOT be how it is portrayed. Or imagine if you had ONLY Jesus's words, but none of the Apostles commentary.

For example:

Luke 10:25-28 KJV
25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Matthew 22:36-4 KJV
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28-31 KJV
28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

1 Peter 4:8 KJV
8And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

1 John 3:14 KJV
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1 John 4:11-12
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The Entire Ministry of Jesus Christ seems to be about Loving God and loving others.

Why has the entire Ministry been summed up as "Believe in Jesus, go to Heaven. Not believe in Jesus, and go to hell"? Or at least be very uncertain of your salvation.
because you dont notice the times/sects that have a more nuanced approach to christianity.

Jesus also said to walk around barefoot, and to live an ascetic lifestyle in general.

Jesus also said to walk around barefoot, and to live an acetic lifestyle in general.

Um...no.

True, which is my point that it seems Christianity directly contradicts the life of Christ and what he was trying to convey.

Jesus seems like a great teacher if you read his direct teachings, but then when you get to his followers it is a wonder what happened.

Umm, I'm pretty sure Jesus Himself said that He was the only way into Heaven.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" -- John 14:6 (NKJV)

There are other verses where Jesus makes it clear that He is the key to salvation ("Not all who say to me 'Lord Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven." and such)

Gee, well, if Christians ascribe to the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus claims that He is the righteous saviour who will deliver us from sin... I wonder why Christians would think that!

Are we ignoring John 14:6 or do we think it means something other than what it says?

Smunkee, you're a real jerk when you post sense-making posts ahead of me! :tongue:

Um...no.

Luke, IX, 13.

And in Luke, XIV, 26, he says one must hate his family to follow.

You have John 14:6, John 3:16, and the Great Commission, along with his teachings concerning the Kingdom of God being at hand and/or of the end times. That establishes that Jesus preached that he is indeed the one and only Messiah. The passages quoted are his summation of the law, as he is its fulfillment according to the Sermon on the Mount. Based upon his teachings, he calls those who desire to follow him to a much higher standard than what the Law and the Prophets had required. Both he and the Old Testament Prophets spoke out against the injustices in the world and demanded that they be corrected. To show that the Lord is a God of love, mercy, and justice, not hate and evil, John 3:16, Revelation 22, Psalm 23, and the entire books of Jonah, Hosea, with portions of Malachi, and probably Amos...read those texts and you get a good idea of what God is truly like.

Luke, IX, 13.

And in Luke, XIV, 26, he says one must hate his family to follow.

Okay first.....I don't do roman numerals well after 1 1/3 hours of sleep, and second, you should read on in the second passage.

Umm, I'm pretty sure Jesus Himself said that He was the only way into Heaven.

Yes, he also said one had to be Jewish in John 4:22

He strongly implies he is not God in: Matthew 19:16-17.

Luke, IX, 13.

And in Luke, XIV, 26, he says one must hate his family to follow.

In Luke 16:26, Jesus is likely using hyperbole, something He is rather known for doing, because while He says this, He also claims to remove not even a tittle from the law of the prophets, in which is included "Honor your mother and father."

As for Luke 9:13... Jesus told His disciples to feed the crowd, and they responded with how much food they had... not actually related to sandals, or ascetism at all.

Yes, he also said one had to be Jewish in John 4:22

He strongly implies he is not God in: Matthew 19:16-17.

"Salvation is from the Jews." "From" not "For, and only for". Note that the Samaritans were also pagan.

I get no implication of undeification from Matthew 19:16-17, especially as Jesus continues by suggesting the young man follow Him, even after the young man purportedly did 'everything' he needed to. To get an accurate context of a verse, you might try reading what Jesus is actually talking about, before making premature judgements based off of one sentence.

Okay first.....I don't do roman numerals well after 1 1/3 hours of sleep, and second, you should read on in the second passage.

Ugh, you need to sleep...less.


By ascetic I do not mean forfeiting all one's money, I merely meaning giving up many of life pleasures. Such as sex, as Matthew 19:12 mentions.

Yes, he also said one had to be Jewish in John 4:22

John 3:16 also refutes this notion, as does Jesus forgiving the thief on the cross.

Ugh, you need to sleep...less.


By ascetic I do not mean forfeiting all one's money, I merely meaning giving up many of life pleasures. Such as sex, as Matthew 29:12 mentions.

You have an amazing Bible... in mine, Matthew ends at 28:20.

Okay first.....I don't do roman numerals well after 1 1/3 hours of sleep, and second, you should read on in the second passage.

9, and 14 :tongue:

Ugh, you need to sleep...less.


By ascetic I do not mean forfeiting all one's money, I merely meaning giving up many of life pleasures. Such as sex, as Matthew 19:12 mentions.

You should read Matt 19:1-12.

It will make more sense to you.

"Salvation is from the Jews." "From" not "For, and only for". Note that the Samaritans were also pagan.

But Matthew 10:5 he makes it clear he does not want Samaritans or "gentiles".

I get no implication of undeification from Matthew 19:16-17, especially as Jesus continues by suggesting the young man follow Him, even after the young man purportedly did 'everything' he needed to. To get an accurate context of a verse, you might try reading what Jesus is actually talking about, before making premature judgements based off of one sentence.

He not to ask himself about "what is good", for God is the only "one who is good". This implies that Jesus was defining God as separate from himself at the time.

Umm, I'm pretty sure Jesus Himself said that He was the only way into Heaven.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" -- John 14:6 (NKJV)

There are other verses where Jesus makes it clear that He is the key to salvation ("Not all who say to me 'Lord Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven." and such)

Gee, well, if Christians ascribe to the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus claims that He is the righteous saviour who will deliver us from sin... I wonder why Christians would think that!

You forgot Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

...and John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

However, we also have Matthew 5:20, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 19:17, Matthew 25:41-46, Luke 10:26-28, John 5:29 and other verses that show clearly that loving others is as important or more important than simply faith in Jesus as god.

Like in so many other ways, the Bible contradicts itself on this, or at least requires extensive interpretation. Why do most Christian sects focus on the faith interpretation as opposed to the good works interpretation. I would argue that it's easier to create social cohesion if you separate people by hwat they profess rather than what they do.

It's a lot easier to define your community based on what particualr theology they have rather than simply define it as 'people who are good'.

And it seems strange that he can forsake himself: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Like in so many other ways, the Bible contradicts itself on this, or at least requires extensive interpretation. Why do most Christian sects focus on the faith interpretation as opposed to the good works interpretation.

I don't think it's contradiction. There is a strong faith element... but Jesus makes it clear that faith in Him also entails attempting to live to His standards, He frequently references following after Him, and doubtful He meant "Hey, trail after me, make sure I don't drop anything."

And it is indeed sad that so much seems only faith-based, though my home church also focuses a lot on the doing good stuff as well.

And it seems strange that he can forsake himself: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

He's actually quoting scripture there, Isaiah I think.

And it seems strange that he can forsake himself: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

That was the moment in which Christ, who was until this point sinless, was burdened with the sin of humanity, He, who was fully man, and fully God was now sheltered, and removed from God, who cannot, by His nature abide sin, He was now alone, a mand crushed, and desperate... and crucified.

He also was very spiritual, speaking to God in other contexts as not Himself, wand while He may still have been God, the relation of Jesus to the less tangible God before His resurrection is hard to speculate on.

That was the moment in which Christ, who was until this point sinless, was burdened with the sin of humanity, He, who was fully man, and fully God was now sheltered, and removed from God, who cannot, by His nature abide sin, He was now alone, a mand crushed, and desperate... and crucified.

He also was very spiritual, speaking to God in other contexts as not Himself, wand while He may still have been God, the relation of Jesus to the less tangible God before His resurrection is hard to speculate on.

So Jesus was not God until after the resurrection?

He's actually quoting scripture there, Isaiah I think.

Yes, but why?

But Matthew 10:5 he makes it clear he does not want Samaritans or "gentiles".

But Jesus doesn't say "Never go to the samaritans, or to the gentiles... I refuse to save them." He said "Nah, don't go there right now." The end of Matthew, as well as, again, John 3:16 show that the message of Christ is for everyone.

He not to ask himself about "what is good", for God is the only "one who is good". This implies that Jesus was defining God as separate from himself at the time.

Implies... but it's a light implication. He hadn't publicly proclaimed Himself as God yet, and perhaps did not want to shake this man's confidence... and who's to say He wasn't speaking in the third person, DT thinks that fairly reasonable. ;)

Yes, but why?

It was a prayer. It was Psalm 22, sorry I was mistaken, I'm still a bit asleep.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22

So Jesus was not God until after the resurrection?

Perhaps you can quote the exact words of mine that said, or suggested that as likely.

He certainly was God...but He was also a human, with the very human need for a spiritual connection to something bigger.

But Jesus doesn't say "Never go to the samaritans, or to the gentiles... I refuse to save them." He said "Nah, don't go there right now." The end of Matthew, as well as, again, John 3:16 show that the message of Christ is for everyone.

At the very least he strongly prefers Jews--Christ was not a Christian.

Implies... but it's a light implication. He hadn't publicly proclaimed Himself as God yet, and perhaps did not want to shake this man's confidence... and who's to say He wasn't speaking in the third person, DT thinks that fairly reasonable. ;)

Third person with a split personality: "Why you are you asking me? ask him."

So Jesus was not God until after the resurrection?

The current orthodox interpretation of the crucifixion requires Jesus to be both wholly divine and wholly human. Yes, this is profoundly illogical, but that's why it's defined as a miracle.

Perhaps you can quote the exact words of mine that said, or suggested that as likely.

You confused me by saying something about "tangible".

He certainly was God...but He was also a human, with the very human need for a spiritual connection to something bigger.

What is bigger than God (in est, himself)? Or was he just talking to himself?

You confused me by saying something about "tangible".

Sorry, it was the best word I found while fishing for words to confuse you with. :tongue:

What is bigger than God (in est, himself)? Or was he just talking to himself?

Not necessarily impossible, I do it, and I'm awesome, so Jesus, who was like, super-awesome, could've done it too.

Not necessarily impossible, I do it, and I'm awesome, so Jesus, who was like, super-awesome, could've done it too.

But do you accuse yourself of deserting yourself, and tell someone who wants advice from you to ask you instead? :confused:

At the very least he strongly prefers Jews--Christ was not a Christian.

The parable of the Good Samaritan seems to disagree with you... perhaps you can show some evidence? No doubt Jews are going to be more receptive to their Messiah, than pagans are to the Jewish Messiah.

Correct, Jesus was Christian, "Christian" was first recorded around 100 AD, before that, why would any "Christian" call themselves anything but a Jew?

In theory... if Jesus was the Messiah, then all the Christians are the 'real' Jews, and the Jews are just... old-timey Jews or something.

But do you accuse yourself of deserting yourself, and tell someone who wants advice from you to ask you instead? :confused:

You know... I'm such a ridiculous weirdo... it's really not improbable to have happened.

Besides, this was a long time ago, everyone was weird back then... and short... except Goliath....

The parable of the Good Samaritan seems to disagree with you... perhaps you can show some evidence? No doubt Jews are going to be more receptive to their Messiah, than pagans are to the Jewish Messiah.

Matthew 15:24.


Correct, Jesus was Christian, "Christian" was first recorded around 100 AD, before that, why would any "Christian" call themselves anything but a Jew?

I do not know.

In theory... if Jesus was the Messiah, then all the Christians are the 'real' Jews, and the Jews are just... old-timey Jews or something.

Not at all. There are sects of Judaism that consider Christ the Messiah. And Christ advocated total obedience to Jewish law, which he considered universal (Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17).

If Jesus is the ONLY Way...

Then the antitrust law kicks in and splits him into three different deities... oh wait.

Correct, Jesus was Christian, "Christian" was first recorded around 100 AD, before that, why would any "Christian" call themselves anything but a Jew?

Maybe they were annointed ? "Christ" is a honorific after all.
But that indeed is guesswork. Let us keep it at Jew.

Then the antitrust law kicks in and splits him into three different deities... oh wait.

Jesus hated trusts.

http://thepatriotaxe.com/jesus.jpg

And Christ advocated total obedience to Jewish law, which he considered universal (Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17).

While speaking to Jews. I am not, nor have I ever been a Jew, so I must assume that while still spiritually valid, much of the OT is more like a guideline, than a set of rules.

While speaking to Jews. I am not, nor have I ever been a Jew, so I must assume that while still spiritually valid, much of the OT is more like a guideline, than a set of rules.

You could convert. :D

Anyway, how are we to tell guidelines from rules?

I'll take a stab at it.

The basics of my question is that it seems to me that the entire Christian belief of Salvation which is all that many Christians focus on is based on a few verses, whereas the entirety of Jesus's message and ministry as HE taught and lived it was different. By listening to most Christians talk today you would think that Jesus's whole ministry should have been him going around saying, "If you don't believe I am the Father, then you are going to hell" which he NEVER directly said.


Of course not, since Jesus =/= God the Father.

(I know this is where Trinitarians disagree with me. I get it. Trinitarians: Don't flame me, just write your own responses.)

But He did say "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Which is pretty unambiguous.


If this was so important, and the entire purpose of his life was to tell people that he was the ONLY way to get to God from there on out then why did he not specify this throughout his Ministry?


How many times would be enough? He did say it at least once. Does it not count unless He says it at least 5 times? 10? Besides, we only know how many times such lessons were recorded, not how many times they were said.

At any rate, I don't think that was the entire purpose of His life on Earth at all. Among other things, He came to fulfill the Gospel, to teach the next dispensation, to set an example, and perhaps most important, to suffer and die for our sins.


What you see many people lacking in general though is Love and Unconditional Love, which many preachers yelling about Hell and Salvation only do not seem to get.


That's very true. It's a sad commentary on many congregations that they focus more on avoiding punishment than on the love.


Imagine you were someone who did not know anything, 0 about Christianity but you picked up the Holy Bible. Just looking at it independent, the general message of Jesus's life and teachings (in my view) would NOT be how it is portrayed. Or imagine if you had ONLY Jesus's words, but none of the Apostles commentary.

That's kind of a general issue though, since how His life is portrayed varies from denomination to denomination. Not that this is a good thing, mind you, but some do a much better job than others.


Luke 10:25-28 KJV
25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Matthew 22:36-4 KJV
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28-31 KJV
28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


That's absolutely a perfect example, since every one of the Original Ten Commandments falls under the category of the above. The Golden Rule, defined here by the Lord, is the higher, more advanced version. Think of the Ten Commandments as the high school level course and the Golden Rule as the College level.

Also under the umbrella of what Jesus said here is obedience to God (which follows naturally from loving Him as Jesus describes here.)


1 Peter 4:8 KJV
8And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

1 John 3:14 KJV
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1 John 4:11-12
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The Entire Ministry of Jesus Christ seems to be about Loving God and loving others.


Mostly, yes.


Why has the entire Ministry been summed up as "Believe in Jesus, go to Heaven. Not believe in Jesus, and go to hell"? Or at least be very uncertain of your salvation.

People shouldn't sum it up that way, you're right. To do so is to ignore many of the most important elements.

But there is more than that.


6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So here we have some specific details on the necessity to be a follower of Christ. These aren't ambiguous. Now, did He dwell on this part? No. Why should He have needed to? They're pretty clear. He was here to emphasize the positive, to motivate by example and by focusing on the goodness. The rest needed to be said, yes, but not dwelt upon.

To the OP: You have an issue with many churches putting so much emphasis on the necessity for belief and not enough on the love, and you're right to feel that way, but do understand that your post almost sounds like you would expect the Bible itself to do th every thing you criticize those people for. ;)

Aww you didnt say there would be spoilers.

Jebus ain't in the old testament.

"And when they were by Jebus, the day was far spent; and the servant said unto his master, Come, I pray thee, and let us turn in into this city of the Jebusites, and lodge in it" - Judges 19:11, KJV.

"And when they were by Jebus, the day was far spent; and the servant said unto his master, Come, I pray thee, and let us turn in into this city of the Jebusites, and lodge in it" - Judges 19:11, KJV.

But Jesus is simply the Greek version of Yoshua; I do not know where "Jebus" could possibly come from.

But Jesus is simply the Greek version of Yoshua; I do not know where "Jebus" could possibly come from.

In the old testament, it was an old name for Jerusalem. I think referring to Jesus as 'Jebus' came from the Simpsons.

To those who have Ears to hear and Eyes to see ... :hail:

http://www.ccci.org/wij/index.aspx

To those who have ears to hear and Eyes to see ...

http://www.ccci.org/wij/index.aspx

Kormanthor, could you pull a VS and make a thread out of this?

Kormanthor, could you pull a VS and make a thread out of this?


Just check out the link I gave you then if you have any questions I will do my best to answer them.

Just check out the link I gave you then if you have any questions I will do my best to answer them.

This. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy)

Thanks a lot for all the discussions.

This. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy)


I agree that Evil is the problem, however the God of the Bible is not that author of evil. Rather Satan the so called God of this World is.

I agree that Evil is the problem, however the God of the Bible is not that author of evil. Rather Satan the so called God of this World is.

God still has the power to stop him. If I stand by while a girl is raped, I am partially to blame.

Thanks a lot for all the discussions.

I don't believe you had time to read the link I gave you. Instead I believe you only wish to argue. While I will discuss these issues with you I will not argue with you.

God still has the power to stop him. If I stand by while a girl is raped, I am partially to blame.


Yes he does have the power to stop it, however we all also have the responsiblity to pray and ask God to have Mercy on us his children and save us from the one who is truely evil.

Yes he does have the power to stop it, however we all also have the responsiblity to pray and ask God to have Mercy on us his children and save us from the one who is truely evil.

If I stand by while a girl is being raped, I am partially responsible, even if she fails to ask for help.

In other news today, I report to you that God generally fails to help those being raped, even when they ask him to help.

You're right Aerion, and 2,000 years of tradition and billions of followers are wrong? That's pretty amazing when you think about it. Some of the greatest minds were fooled by all this, people like Tertullian, Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Kant, Tillich... but you saw what they didn't see?

That's an interesting idea, but not one I can subscribe to in good conscience.

Jesus said that if you've seen Him, you've seen God the Father, meaning that if you've seen Jesus you've seen love, mercy, compassion, purity.. These are the qualities of God (or so we Christians believe).

Compare that to the Greek gods who were as petty and violent as most regular people can be, or compare it to strands of European paganism which said it was virtuous to be as merciless as Mother Nature.

A Christian doesn't see any of the qualities of God our Father in those things. But we see them all in Jesus. That's why we believe that the only way to God the Father is through God the Son.

If I stand by while a girl is being raped, I am partially responsible, even if she fails to ask for help.

In other news today, I report to you that God generally fails to help those being raped, even when they ask him to help.

When they or another ask him he will save them. I you doubt it ask him yourself. If you are serious when you go to him, he will answer you. If you doubt his existance why should he answer you?

In other news today, I report to you that God generally fails to help those being raped, even when they ask him to help.

If you want the Christian take on suffering, read this:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

It's John Paul II's encyclical on the Christian meaning of human suffering, and although it is quite long it's still well worth the read.

When they or another ask him he will save them. I you doubt it ask him yourself. If you are serious when you go to him, he will answer you. If you doubt his existance why should he answer you?

You seriously believe that God will always prevent a danger if someone prays for him to?

Again, even if he did (utterly wrong), I still hold him responsible for standing by and eating popcorn while mothers are forced to watch their infants being roasted and eaten.

You seriously believe that God will always prevent a danger if someone prays for him to?

Again, even if he did (utterly wrong), I still hold him responsible for standing by and eating popcorn while mothers are forced to watch their infants being roasted and eaten.


Why don't you hold Satan responsible? I haven't heard you say anything about him even though I have meantioned him before. He is the one who causes evil, not God.

Then the antitrust law kicks in and splits him into three different deities... oh wait.

No, three persons in one being. Just like you can be a daughter, a wife, and a mother all at the same time. You're always one being, but to your father, your husband, and your kids you may as well be three different people, the roles being so different and heavily defined in each case.

Why don't you hold Satan responsible? I haven't heard you say anything about him even though I have meantioned him before. He is the one who causes evil, not God.

Because God is letting Satan run around the place creating evil. This does not look well upon His Omnibenevolence/Omnipotence

Why don't you hold Satan responsible? I haven't heard you say anything about him even though I have meantioned him before. He is the one who causes evil, not God.

So Satan is responsible, and God is more benevolent than Satan. I still find it hard to worship a God who lets him do what he does.

You seriously believe that God will always prevent a danger if someone prays for him to?



Not always. Because God never promised to save us from all physical harm.

Not always. Because God never promised to save us from all physical harm.

And because he does not I bite my thumb at him. He is a like government that refuses to stop crime when it can, but demands loyalty.

Why don't you hold Satan responsible? I haven't heard you say anything about him even though I have meantioned him before. He is the one who causes evil, not God.

According to your religion Yahweh created everything, yes?

Therefore he created evil, and is the one ultimately responsible.

And because he does not I bite my thumb at him. He is a like government that refuses to stop crime when it can, but demands loyalty.

You're parents couldn't/wouldn't save you from never getting hurt when you were a kid. You bite your thumb at them, too?

You're parents couldn't/wouldn't save you from never getting hurt when you were a kid. You bite your thumb at them, too?

If they let someone rape or torture me? yes.

According to your religion Yahweh created everything, yes?

Therefore he created evil, and is the one ultimately responsible.

Unless evil isn't a "thing", but rather a state of being, a state of separation from God. I can't speak for other denominations, but as a Catholic, that's what I got taught. God gives us free will, the freedom to walk toward Him or away from Him. Someone can walk away from all that love, mercy, and purity, and decide to live a life of selfishness, greed, etc, and that will lead to awful things, or "evil".

It's not a creation, it's a choice, and we're the ones who make it.

This just in: Christianity contradicts itself? Find out tonight at 9.

Basicly because the Old testament pretty much boils down to "Do what God orders, or suffer His sadistic wrath".

Jesus can protect you from the God beast. If you do not follow Jesus, you are prey.

So, pray or prey. Got it.

Unless evil isn't a "thing", but rather a state of being, a state of separation from God. I can't speak for other denominations, but as a Catholic, that's what I got taught. God gives us free will, the freedom to walk toward Him or away from Him. Someone can walk away from all that love, mercy, and purity, and decide to live a life of selfishness, greed, etc, and that will lead to awful things, or "evil".

It's not a creation, it's a choice, and we're the ones who make it.

But why should the good have to suffer for someone else choosing to be evil?

If they let someone rape or torture me? yes.

Did you read the encyclical yet? It explains all this far better than I can:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

But why should the good have to suffer for someone else choosing to be evil?

What if ultimately good comes out that suffering? Then what?

Jesus didn't save even Himself from suffering. Instead, He brought about good from it. Maybe it's the same with human suffering. The saints speak of suffering as a holy thing if one approaches it that way. A share in the Cross.

Did you read the encyclical yet? It explains all this far better than I can:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

Please just paste the important parts here. I was exhausted reading "suffering is inherent to man" and whatnot.

So Satan is responsible, and God is more benevolent than Satan. I still find it hard to worship a God who lets him do what he does.


Is that your choice then?

Unless evil isn't a "thing", but rather a state of being, a state of separation from God. I can't speak for other denominations, but as a Catholic, that's what I got taught. God gives us free will, the freedom to walk toward Him or away from Him. Someone can walk away from all that love, mercy, and purity, and decide to live a life of selfishness, greed, etc, and that will lead to awful things, or "evil".

It's not a creation, it's a choice, and we're the ones who make it.

But you were just saying that satan is responsible for all evil, yahweh created satan, therefore he (yahweh) is ultimately responsible for evil.

What if ultimately good comes out that suffering? Then what?

No good comes out of the amount of suffering many endure.

Is that your choice then?

It still, to this day, baffles me that people actually try and change each other's minds in a religion thread.

Is that your choice then?

God is not benevolent. Why would I worship him? because he has the power? He sounds an awful lot like the "Big Brother" of 1984 to me.

But you were just saying that satan is responsible for all evil, yahweh created satan, therefore he (yahweh) is ultimately responsible for evil.

No, someone else said that. But I'll take it up here if you want.

Satan walked away, too. There ya go.

No, someone else said that. But I'll take it up here if you want.

Satan walked away, too. There ya go.

And we suffer for Satan's adolescent angst. Yea!

It still, to this day, baffles me that people actually try and change each other's minds in a religion thread.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Some misconceptions about the faith were made, I tried to straighten it out, as did others. That's all. I'm no seeker-of-converts.

Correct, Jesus was Christian, "Christian" was first recorded around 100 AD, before that, why would any "Christian" call themselves anything but a Jew?

No, Jesus was a Jew. He never claimed to be anything else.

Am I the only one who finds it somewhat amusing that if Jesus did his ministry today, that he would most likely be labeled a schizophrenic?

No good comes out of the amount of suffering many endure.

How do you know that?

And I'm not going to copy and paste that encyclical's content. If I can be troubled to read the whole thing, I'm sure you can, too. If not now, then later maybe.

According to your religion Yahweh created everything, yes?

Therefore he created evil, and is the one ultimately responsible.

Thats why Jesus had to come in order to make a way for us to get back to God. God gave Adam dominion over the world in the garden. When Adam and Eve allowed satan to cause them to go against God they gave that dominion to Satan. Jesus came to take that dominion back, thats why he the only way to God.


( Note: Got to go my library time is almost up, talk to you all later.)

How do you know that?

And I'm not going to copy and paste that encyclical's content. If I can be troubled to read the whole thing, I'm sure you can, too. If not now, then later maybe.

"How do you know that?" fails as an argument, unless you can give an example of the good that it does.

I can be troubled to read the whole Illuminatus! trilogy, so I suppose you can, too.

I don't get it.. I mean, if you don't believe, you don't believe. Getting on the forum and trying to take apart Christianity is just as weird as those people who go around trying to convert every forum they happen into.

I believe, you don't. I don't have a problem with that. Do you?

I don't get it.. I mean, if you don't believe, you don't believe. Getting on the forum and trying to take apart Christianity is just as weird as those people who go around trying to convert every forum they happen into.

I believe, you don't. I don't have a problem with that. Do you?

This is the thread topic. Do you understand that we use these forums to debate?

"How do you know that?" fails as an argument, unless you can give an example of the good that it does.

I can be troubled to read the whole Illuminatus! trilogy, so I suppose you can, too.

It fails on your side then unless you can give an example of the good it does NOT do.

And 30 pages compared to 800? C'mon...

Unless evil isn't a "thing", but rather a state of being, a state of separation from God. I can't speak for other denominations, but as a Catholic, that's what I got taught. God gives us free will, the freedom to walk toward Him or away from Him. Someone can walk away from all that love, mercy, and purity, and decide to live a life of selfishness, greed, etc, and that will lead to awful things, or "evil".

It's not a creation, it's a choice, and we're the ones who make it.

I'm going to nit pick here, It's Yahweh, Y-a-h-w-e-h. God is a title, not a name.

What if someone walks away from Yahweh, but still doesn't live a life of selfishness, greed and other things that'll lead to evil or harmful things?

I worship Woden and Freya, and I still follow the Golden Rule, so am I evil for not worshiping Yahweh?

No, someone else said that. But I'll take it up here if you want.
My apologies...
Satan walked away, too. There ya go.
And yahweh allowed it, show me where it says in the bible that angels were given free will.

In addition the bible isn't really clear about whether or not humans even have free will...
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.
Choose you this day whom ye will serve.... But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
These indicate that the answer is yes.



And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation. These on the other hand, seem to indicate that humans do not have free will.
Based on pure volume of evidence from the bible, I would have to say that according to christianity (as defined by the bible) humans do not have free will.

This the thread topic. Do you understand that we use these forums to debate?

But this isn't a debate. These threads never are. It's one guy after another bitching about how some nun wrapped him too hard on the knuckles with a ruler when he was in third grade.

If you had any real interest in an intellectual investigation of this thing you so heartily disagree with, you'd go to the library, check out some books, and then we'd talk like two educated people do from time to time.

It fails on your side then unless you can give an example of the good it does NOT do.

Ah, no it does not. If the government lets some hoodlums burn my house down, it is not up to me to prove they did no good by burning down the house.

And 30 pages compared to 800? C'mon...

It is a crappy read anyway. Stupid anarchist-hippie-sex-drugs-nonsense.

Anyway, I am debating you, not John. If you want to quote him in the debate, that is fine. I will try to read it sometime, but that is not my responsibility.

I worship Woden and Freya, and I still follow the Golden Rule, so am I evil for not worshiping Yahweh?

That's up to God to decide. That ain't my gig. I like to live and live and I do my thing on Sunday and you do yours and that's that. I only started posting in this thread because someone made a factual error with the content of scripture. That's it.

But this isn't a debate. These threads never are. It's one guy after another bitching about how some nun wrapped him too hard on the knuckles with a ruler when he was in third grade.
I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that not everyone who is a non-christian made that choice because of some mistreatment by a church figure.
If you had any real interest in an intellectual investigation of this thing you so heartily disagree with, you'd go to the library, check out some books, and then we'd talk like two educated people do from time to time.
I rather thought that's what I was doing.

II worship Woden and Freya, and I still follow the Golden Rule, so am I evil for not worshiping Yahweh?

Do you believe Woden has one eye? :)

Do you believe Woden has one eye? :)

I think it healed by now. I mean he is a God, why shouldn't it be healed? lol

That's up to God to decide. That ain't my gig. I like to live and live and I do my thing on Sunday and you do yours and that's that. I only started posting in this thread because someone made a factual error with the content of scripture. That's it.

Which error was that (not that I'm automatically saying you're wrong)? I may have simply missed it.

Anyway, I am debating you, not John. If you want to quote him in the debate, that is fine. I will try to read it sometime, but that is not my responsibility.

No. If you're gonna take such issue with the Christian philosophy on suffering, you very well do have a responsibility to read up on what you're trying to criticize.

You can't call the Godfather a pretentious, bloated film until you actually see the thing. Fair's fair.

But this isn't a debate. These threads never are. It's one guy after another bitching about how some nun wrapped him too hard on the knuckles with a ruler when he was in third grade.

Generally. I am still trying to aim for a debate, which is what the spirit of this is.

If you had any real interest in an intellectual investigation of this thing you so heartily disagree with, you'd go to the library, check out some books, and then we'd talk like two educated people do from time to time.

I have read much on the subject, including the whole Bible. I still can not get past the problem of evil.

No. If you're gonna take such issue with the Christian philosophy on suffering, you very well do have a responsibility to read up on what you're trying to criticize.

I have read the Bible.

You can't call the Godfather a pretentious, bloated film until you actually see the thing. Fair's fair.

What if I see it, then you say I cannot call it a pretentious, bloated film until I read all the critical commentary and philosophy?

Looking at your link, first question: "Suffering makes man what he is, and allows him to transcend...." Why can some mend "transcend" with just a little suffering, while others have to watch their families burned alive?

Generally. I am still trying to aim for a debate, which is what the spirit of this is.


I have read much on the subject, including the whole Bible. I still can not get past the problem of evil.

I, too, have read the whole Bible. Now we can have a club with jackets and cards and we'll meet on Tuesdays if that works for everyone..? Anyone wanna second the motion? ;-)

When I finished it, I was left with the overwhelming message of God's mercy. And my Catholic Church has had people like JPII to expand on the idea of suffering. And that's it.

I'm sorry (truly, not sarcastically) that you didn't come away with the same message, and I'm sorry that whoever was responsible for your religious instruction didn't do a better job on these points, but what can I do?

What's in your heart is your business.. It has nothing to do with me. You drive me a little nuts with some of this back and forth, but I like ya anyway..

I gotta go for the afternoon.

Later.

This is my main problem with Christ being the only way to Heaven. What about 2/3rd of mankind who aren't Christian? What about Buddha, Ghandi? What if an atheist cures Breast Cancer, and yet because they didn't choose the right path, or even follow a path, they're damned?

"Hey, thanks for enlightening your people, but you didn't accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, so down you go."

"Thanks for curing Breast Cancer, but you didn't even believe in me, down ya go."

Christians are expected to follow the accounts of Jesus, and yet New Testament was written 40 years after the events of Jesus, and the Bible was complied by people who have their own agenda and message that they want to put into the Bible, which is probably the reason why The Bible has so much contradictions in it.

I think it healed by now. I mean he is a God, why shouldn't it be healed? lol

Since he got to have all that knowledge, he should have to forfeit something.

Anyway, did you ever see all of Wagner's Ring cycle?

I, too, have read the whole Bible. Now we can have a club with jackets and cards and we'll meet on Tuesdays if that works for everyone..? Anyone wanna second the motion? ;-)

Sure. You will have to put-up with a lot of smart-ass liberals, though.

When I finished it, I was left with the overwhelming message of God's mercy. And my Catholic Church has had people like JPII to expand on the idea of suffering. And that's it.

Many of the things God did in the Old Testament did not sound merciful to me. Anyway, I happen to be an admirer of the Catholic Church, at least in historical context; I just cannot believe many of things they believe.

I'm sorry (truly, not sarcastically) that you didn't come away with the same message, and I'm sorry that whoever was responsible for your religious instruction didn't do a better job on these points, but what can I do?

My "religious instructor" tried his best. Nobody ever explained to me why this world is built in such a way that one needs to be evil to succeed.

What's in your heart is your business.. It has nothing to do with me. You drive me a little nuts with some of this back and forth, but I like ya anyway..

I gotta go for the afternoon.

Later.

Hurm.

Since he got to have all that knowledge, he should have to forfeit something.

Hmm true.

Anyway, did you ever see all of Wagner's Ring cycle?

I never even heard of Wagner's Ring Cycle, what is it about?

Hmm true.

Sure, if it regenerates he is scamming the universe.



I never even heard of Wagner's Ring Cycle,

You should at least be familiar with the parody: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJAXJWm8G4A

what is it about?

It is a series of four operas about the Norse Gods.

Here is an excerpt, animated (yup!), and in English: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA2zGYkY-mM

Luke, IX, 13.

And in Luke, XIV, 26, he says one must hate his family to follow.

According to your religion Yahweh created everything, yes?

Therefore he created evil, and is the one ultimately responsible.

Ah, but sin is defined as the essence of rebellion against all things Godly (i.e. God, godliness, goodness, God's design, etc). So God couldn't have created that which is without him. Therefore sin isn't a "thing", but the rather the absence of that thing.

Therefore Evil = lack of Good.

I can be troubled to read the whole Illuminatus! trilogy, so I suppose you can, too.


And I'm not going to copy and paste that encyclical's content. If I can be troubled to read the whole thing, I'm sure you can, too. If not now, then later maybe.

Shit! Fold man, fold!

Do you believe Woden has one eye? :)

Funny thing, that rule was apparently created to limit the amount of vengence one could take. Less, "this guy murdered your sister? Fucking kill him!" and more "Yes, I know this guy killed your sister. No you cannot kill his entire family."

And then it gets interesting. Later Jesus says to turn the other cheek, so then why say eye for an eye in the first place? Was God taking it a step at a time? Waiting for people to get used to the idea of justice before laying down a law, yet tempering their actions in the meantime?

This is my main problem with Christ being the only way to Heaven. What about 2/3rd of mankind who aren't Christian? What about Buddha, Ghandi? What if an atheist cures Breast Cancer, and yet because they didn't choose the right path, or even follow a path, they're damned?

"Hey, thanks for enlightening your people, but you didn't accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, so down you go."

"Thanks for curing Breast Cancer, but you didn't even believe in me, down ya go."

Christians are expected to follow the accounts of Jesus, and yet New Testament was written 40 years after the events of Jesus, and the Bible was complied by people who have their own agenda and message that they want to put into the Bible, which is probably the reason why The Bible has so much contradictions in it.

Exactly.

I believe in Jesus, but NOT in Salvationist theory. Some might call me a Universalist (universal salvation) but that quiet does not define it either.

The Apostles argued amongst themselves until the NT was writte 40 years after. If the Apostles argued, how do we have a clear picture? Jesus did not make his entire ministry about saying he was the only way, and when he does speak this way he could very well be speaking of his soon to come death and resurrection. Meaning that he was the only way to cleanse the world of sins. This is just as valid an interpretation as Salvationist interpretation.

You're right Aerion, and 2,000 years of tradition and billions of followers are wrong? That's pretty amazing when you think about it. Some of the greatest minds were fooled by all this, people like Tertullian, Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Kant, Tillich... but you saw what they didn't see?


Appeals to both popularity AND authority?

I suppose, if you're going to resort to logical fallacies, you might as well at least commit.


Jesus said that if you've seen Him, you've seen God the Father, meaning that...


...we are created in His image.


Compare that to the Greek gods who were as petty and violent as most regular people can be...


Just like Jehovah God in the Hebrew scripture.

The parable of the Good Samaritan seems to disagree with you... perhaps you can show some evidence? No doubt Jews are going to be more receptive to their Messiah, than pagans are to the Jewish Messiah.


Jesus told his followers not to preach to anyone but Jews.

All that stuff about a great commission was added later - it's not in the oldest extant manuscripts.

Don't forget about all the gospels that were left out of The Bible.

The Gospel of Judas and The Gospel of Mary Magdalene are two that comes to mind.

Unless evil isn't a "thing", but rather a state of being, a state of separation from God. I can't speak for other denominations, but as a Catholic, that's what I got taught. God gives us free will, the freedom to walk toward Him or away from Him. Someone can walk away from all that love, mercy, and purity, and decide to live a life of selfishness, greed, etc, and that will lead to awful things, or "evil".

It's not a creation, it's a choice, and we're the ones who make it.

I believe this as well. It is extremely good to hear from you all. Thank you!

I believe this as well.

But the problem with it is this: If someone chooses to walk away from him, the innocent have to suffer for it. I do not find it benevolent of God to allow this.

Unless evil isn't a "thing", but rather a state of being, a state of separation from God. I can't speak for other denominations, but as a Catholic, that's what I got taught. God gives us free will, the freedom to walk toward Him or away from Him. Someone can walk away from all that love, mercy, and purity, and decide to live a life of selfishness, greed, etc, and that will lead to awful things, or "evil".

It's not a creation, it's a choice, and we're the ones who make it.

This ignores those who suffer evil through no choice of their own. Those who suffer at the hands of evil people are not making a choice to 'walk away from god' yet they have to deal with the consequences of evil. Why would an omnibenevolent and omnipotent being allow that to happen?

But the problem with it is this: If someone chooses to walk away from him, the innocent have to suffer for it. I do not find it benevolent of God to allow this.

I will take a shot at this. Lately for the record my apologetics have been getting knocked around.


Ahem.

Why evil?

First I think there is an opposite to just about everything. What may be viewed as 'evil" may be just be the opposite of the desired outcome for lack of a better word.

God in the beginning created all of us. Free Will applies to everyone in his organization right down to the janitor. I think he created Lucifer for "Good" purposes, he then some time afterwords he chose to do evil. He would not just undo his creation for some reason. Can an Angel seek forgiveness? I don't know. You would think he could if he wanted to. That seems to also be a central theme. If he didn't create people with the ability to fail they would never fail due to the design not due to choice. I think God believes choice must be freely given. He told what the right thing to do is [Bible] and with Jesus he showed us what the right thing to do was. Jesus was able to be tempted by they same things we are and yet did not succumb. Jesus was part divine but he was also part human while on earth. I really believe Jesus really did feel pain on the cross. I really do feel at that brief moment he felt alone. Hence the why have you forsaken me.


Many humans do evil things but he could just un-create you but he will not, he needs you to decide for yourself that what you are doing is wrong and change. That change needs to come from within. It seems to be really important to God. Why? You will have to ask him when you meet him.

Also I think it is a challenge for human. Famine could be corrected by humans and yet we choose not to. War for the most part could be ended for the most part and yet it does not. God is willing to wait for us to come to the realization that we have a vested interest in making this world a better place.

Times like this I wish I was more eloquent. It is a starting point at least.

God still has the power to stop him. If I stand by while a girl is raped, I am partially to blame.

Perhaps God allows evil so that good can defeat it, and allow humanity to see what happens when good triumphs. Maybe we have to see darkness to truly see the light. i.e. would good times be as good if we didn't know what bad times were like?

Perhaps God allows evil so that good can defeat it, and allow humanity to see what happens when good triumphs. Maybe we have to see darkness to truly see the light. i.e. would good times be as good if we didn't know what bad times were like?

Please never use that to comfort a pair of grieving parents when their child has died due to some painful and protracted illness. I doubt they'll agree that it will make the rest of their life happier in comparison.

Perhaps God allows evil so that good can defeat it, and allow humanity to see what happens when good triumphs. Maybe we have to see darkness to truly see the light. i.e. would good times be as good if we didn't know what bad times were like?

Can you imagine any other 'loving parent' pulling the same crap?

I'm not sure there's a court in the land that would accept the excuse that you were letting your partner rape and beat your child, so that your child would learn the triumphant power of Right, when he or she finally escaped.

The Entire Ministry of Jesus Christ seems to be about Loving God and loving others.

Why has the entire Ministry been summed up as "Believe in Jesus, go to Heaven. Not believe in Jesus, and go to hell"? Or at least be very uncertain of your salvation.

My sect of Christianity (Orthodox) says no one should judge and say, "Oh, Bob is going to hell, and Joe over there is going to heaven."

Only God can decide.

Plus the Bible isn't the sole authority, As John says at the end of his Gospel and as Saint Paul says in 2 Thess.

I will take a shot at this. Lately for the record my apologetics have been getting knocked around.


Ahem.

Why evil?

First I think there is an opposite to just about everything. What may be viewed as 'evil" may be just be the opposite of the desired outcome for lack of a better word.

God in the beginning created all of us. Free Will applies to everyone in his organization right down to the janitor. I think he created Lucifer for "Good" purposes, he then some time afterwords he chose to do evil. He would not just undo his creation for some reason. Can an Angel seek forgiveness? I don't know. You would think he could if he wanted to. That seems to also be a central theme. If he didn't create people with the ability to fail they would never fail due to the design not due to choice. I think God believes choice must be freely given. He told what the right thing to do is [Bible] and with Jesus he showed us what the right thing to do was. Jesus was able to be tempted by they same things we are and yet did not succumb. Jesus was part divine but he was also part human while on earth. I really believe Jesus really did feel pain on the cross. I really do feel at that brief moment he felt alone. Hence the why have you forsaken me.


Many humans do evil things but he could just un-create you but he will not, he needs you to decide for yourself that what you are doing is wrong and change. That change needs to come from within. It seems to be really important to God. Why? You will have to ask him when you meet him.

Also I think it is a challenge for human. Famine could be corrected by humans and yet we choose not to. War for the most part could be ended for the most part and yet it does not. God is willing to wait for us to come to the realization that we have a vested interest in making this world a better place.

Times like this I wish I was more eloquent. It is a starting point at least.

So the evil persons have choice, understandable; why should the good have to suffer for it?

So the evil persons have choice, understandable; why should the good have to suffer for it?

I don't think anyone is safe from suffering. There seems to me to be two types. Active and Passive.

Passive
Sometimes the most merciful thing that can happen is the end. If we think about someone who has a serious illness. Earthquakes, floods, car accidents, bad luck, all fall in this category. All you can do is live a good life and hope for the best. You can do simple things like using your seat belt not the best example but you get the idea. Some will have an affect and some will not. Don't get attached to material things. Make an effort to put everything you have into your relationships. To bite your lip when your friend says that mean thing to you. Do not respond with anger.

Active
If you look to the Bible you can find many times when righteous people suffered at the hands of evil men and women. If we think about it, murder is preventable. Adultery is preventable. Stealing is preventable. Lying is preventable. Do I think we will see a end of these in my lifetime, not likely. In any ones, maybe.

No one should suffer, some of it is our own doing and some of is not. Look for the ones you can have an affect on and do something about it.


I don't think any answer will solve this issue but again it is a start.

If we think about it, murder is preventable. Adultery is preventable. Stealing is preventable. Lying is preventable. Do I think we will see a end of these in my lifetime, not likely. In any ones, maybe.

And God has not prevented them.

No one should suffer, some of it is our own doing and some of is not. Look for the ones you can have an affect on and do something about it.

And yet God lets everyone suffer.

My sect of Christianity (Orthodox) says no one should judge and say, "Oh, Bob is going to hell, and Joe over there is going to heaven."

Only God can decide.

Plus the Bible isn't the sole authority, As John says at the end of his Gospel and as Saint Paul says in 2 Thess.

I know somewhat about Orthodox. If that is the actual on the ground view of the Orthodox then that is much more spiritually mature, and very good to hear.

I wonder why Protestant Christianity (in example esp Baptists) tend to be of the other type.

You that understand need to stop explaining. Non believers will not understand. It's faith, not sources.


Believe what you will, harm no one.

Unless of course you got someone coming at you to kill you or your family.. then bust a cap in their ass.. .. or well the knees.

Are we ignoring John 14:6 or do we think it means something other than what it says?
The Inigo Montoya Syndrome?
Why would that *ever* happen with religious tracts?
My guess is, it's better explained with Legos.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_life_of_jesus/jesus_run_out_of_nazareth/mk06_02pjn14_06.html

You that understand need to stop explaining. Non believers will not understand. It's faith, not sources.


Believe what you will, harm no one.

Whoa ... talking like a nut ... without actually being a nut. Whodathunkit?

Instead of creating a new thread, I found the passage in another thread about Jesus saying that the end time will come in the then current generation. It was Matthew 24:34.

I tell you the truth, this generation[a] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

This was in reference to the end of times.

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

Instead of creating a new thread, I found the passage in another thread about Jesus saying that the end time will come in the then current generation. It was Matthew 24:34.



This was in reference to the end of times.May they never tire of being wrong, so we may never turn around and gaze upon our own empty existence in the stead of our amusement at their folly.

Now I know why preachers and denominations emphasize the Bible being fully God Inspired and confusing the Word and the man-made Bible. It is totally clear why one must "accept the full Bible as the inspired Word of God". If people thought about it the entire faith would be on shaky grounds indeed!

Of course they could choose to believe and recognize Jesus Christ's beautiful message of LOVE and charity, which his ministry seemed to be about instead of being hell, fire, and brimstone salvationists.

The awesome, num-nummy coinkydinky about this is that, right now, on The Colbert Report, Bart Ehrman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman
is discussing with Colbert his new book, Jesus, Interrupted.

There's a couple good ones about Ducks, and Vines & Branches.
Also, Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani? And the blind men & the elephant approach.

It ends with both agreeing to wish for death.
Ah, satisfaction.
*pats tummy*

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

/thread

/thread

Only if you take a narrow salvationist view of it. That is only ONE verse. If the entire salvationist theory (that it seems like most Christians have built their theology upon) hinges on one possibly symbolic/mystical verse and tradition (as it sounds like verses from other mystical works) then that is not as valid as it sounds.

Then by the same token it could be said in an interpretation that he is speaking of his death and resurrection.

Now I know why preachers and denominations emphasize the Bible being fully God Inspired and confusing the Word and the man-made Bible. It is totally clear why one must "accept the full Bible as the inspired Word of God". If people thought about it the entire faith would be on shaky grounds indeed!

Of course they could choose to believe and recognize Jesus Christ's beautiful message of LOVE and charity, which his ministry seemed to be about instead of being hell, fire, and brimstone salvationists.

Very well said. The idea about focus on the beam/plank in you own eye then remove the splinter in your neighbors.



Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank that is in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye (Matthew 7:3-5).

And God has not prevented them.

It not possible to prevent them without affecting Free Will. If you can think of a way. Tell him may be he will do it.



And yet God lets everyone suffer.

He gave the tools not to suffer. He showed us the way not to suffer. We have to get up and walk the path. It is the only way.

You that understand need to stop explaining. Non believers will not understand. It's faith, not sources.


Believe what you will, harm no one.

Unless of course you got someone coming at you to kill you or your family.. then bust a cap in their ass.. .. or well the knees.

Whoa...I understand the faith part, as in I have faith that Obama did not cheat in the election. But I still want something to stand upon--I need some evidence, if not proof, that God is a reasonable being before I start having faith that he is. The fact that he allows a psychopathic entity with supernatural puissance (Satan) to rule the earth and torment his followers disturbs me.

It not possible to prevent them without affecting Free Will. If you can think of a way. Tell him may be he will do it.

So if a policeman sees a woman being raped, he should not intervene, because he would be affecting the rapist's free-will to deprive the woman of her free-will?

He gave the tools not to suffer. He showed us the way not to suffer. We have to get up and walk the path. It is the only way.

No he did not. If some ass chains me to a wall, and saws-off my leg, God never gave me the "tools" to stop the ass in question.

So if a policeman sees a woman being raped, he should not intervene, because he would be affecting the rapist's free-will to deprive the woman of her free-will?

The policemam would likely try to stop the offense from happening in which he is exercising his free will

The rapist is exercising his/her free will by trying to commit the offense

The victim in this case is exercising her free will by trying to resist the rape



No he did not. If some ass chains me to a wall, and saws-off my leg, God never gave me the "tools" to stop the ass in question.

He did, you can beat that "chainer" to a pulp, using whatever you have in question. God never said not to protect yourself.

Hopefully, using the "tools" he did give you would be able to avoid this unpleasantness in the first place.

The policemam would likely try to stop the offense from happening in which he is exercising his free will

The rapist is exercising his/her free will by trying to commit the offense

The victim in this case is exercising her free will by trying to resist the rape

So God has no free-will? or is he just refusing to exercise it?




He did you can beat that "chainer" to a pulp using whatever you have in question. God never said not to protect yourself.

Hopefully, using the "tools" he did give you would be able to avoid this unpleasantness in the first place.

What if the man captured me at gun-point?

So God has no free-will?

God has Free Will as well. He can choose to act or to not act. His reasoning would be far beyond us. His ways are not our ways and our ways are not his ways.




What if the man captured me at gun-point?

Well you can risk getting shot I suppose.

You can pray even for a split second that the gun will miss or jam or whatever. You can knock that sucker out. You can also yell for the police and or help.

If you don't at least try to get away then what other choice is there?

You can hope, that is IF you do get captured, that you can talk the person out of committing this offense.

Failing all that, you can pray that when you do get free, the doctors can sew the leg back on or that you can adjust as well as possible to walking on one leg. Maybe you can get an eye patch and go for a pirate look. j/k on this last sentence.



If you don't get free you can pray that the end will be as swift and painless as possible and that you will be Welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven and your "chainer" be brought to justice.

God has Free Will as well. He can choose to act or to not act. His reasoning would be far beyond us. His ways are not our ways and our ways are not his ways.

Fine. But how do you know he is benevolent, then?





Well you can risk getting shot I suppose.

You can pray even for a split second that the gun will miss or jam or whatever. You can knock that sucker out. You can also yell for the police and or help.

If you don't at least try to get away then what other choice is there?

You can hope, that is IF you do get captured, that you can talk the person out of committing this offense.

Failing all that, you can pray that when you do get free, the doctors can sew the leg back on or that you can adjust as well as possible to walking on one leg. Maybe you can get an eye patch and go for a pirate look. j/k on this last sentence.



If you don't get free you can pray that the end will be as swift and painless as possible and that you will be Welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven and your "chainer" be brought to justice.

It sounds like God is leaving my ass to twist slowly in the wind. You said I can "pray", but in my experience prayers fail to do much of anything, and I know there were many Christians who were tortured by Stalin despite their prayers. Anyway, I do not want "justice" for the "chainer"; even if he deserved it I would not want him to go to Hell; I would just prefer my leg not be cut-off, and God could oblige that desire but chooses not to.

Fine. But how do you know he is benevolent, then?

He is benevolent it your attacker that is not.





It sounds like God is leaving my ass to twist slowly in the wind. You said I can "pray", but in my experience prayers fail to do much of anything, and I know there were many Christians who were tortured by Stalin despite their prayers. Anyway, I do not want "justice" for the "chainer"; even if he deserved it I would not want him to go to Hell; I would just prefer my leg not be cut-off, and God could oblige that desire but chooses not to.

Why would you not want justice for the "chainer" he/she made his/her own choices? If Hell is what he or she deserves then Hell is what he or she should get.

With regard to Stalin and herein lies my problem with humanity you have touched on it nicely. If you don't at least try to resist the atrocities that are happening to your people then where can God help you? You have to resist. You can do so peacefully as in the case of Gandhi or you can do so violently as many of the rest of do. If escape is your only option take it. If you are handy with a weapon, use it. You don't have to just sit there and hope for the best.

I would say, not that we should judge anyone, that Stalin was an evil man, should we not try to resist his policies and actions? Yes, we should with everything we have. The question becomes will you trade/risk your life for his, so that many of your country men might be spared suffering?

He is benevolent it your attacker that is not.

No, of course the attacker is not. But God could stop him, yet chooses not to. You say that God's ways are beyond comprehension. Alright, God is obviously not evil--but how you know that he is purely good?

Why would you not want justice for the "chainer" he/she made his/her own choices? If Hell is what he or she deserves then Hell is what he or she should get.

He deserves it, but I would prefer to forgive him. Does this mean I am more merciful than God?

With regard to Stalin and herein lies my problem with humanity you have touched on it nicely. If you don't at least try to resist the atrocities that are happening to your people then where can God help you? You have to resist. You can do so peacefully as in the case of Gandhi or you can do so violently as many of the rest of do. If escape is your only option take it. If you are handy with a weapon, use it. You don't have to just sit there and hope for the best.

Um, many did try to resist. Just like there was a group of persons who were going to be executed in the Holocaust, but they managed to break into a weapons room and take guns and grenades. These persons were, of course, eventually killed in very painful ways.

I would say, not that we should judge anyone, that Stalin was an evil man, should we not try to resist his policies and actions? Yes, we should with everything we have. The question becomes will you trade/risk your life for his, so that many of your country men might be spared suffering?

Many did, and they did not succeed. God had the power stop Stalin, but instead let millions suffer so Stalin could have free-will.

Just like there was a group of persons who were going to be executed in the Holocaust, but they managed to break into a weapons room and take guns and grenades. These persons were, of course, eventually killed in very painful ways.

They don't count/matter, they're only jews...

They don't count/matter, they're only jews...

I know. :( All Jews are going to Hell...poor Christ.

No, of course the attacker is not. But God could stop him, yet chooses not to. You say that God's ways are beyond comprehension. Alright, God is obviously not evil--but how you know that he is purely good?

He is purely good. We know from both his actions and his words.



He deserves it, but I would prefer to forgive him. Does this mean I am more merciful than God?

You gave him mercy when he didn't deserve it of course you should be commended then.


Um, many did try to resist. Just like there was group of persons who were going to be executed in the Holocaust who took guns and grenades. These persons were, of course, eventually killed in very painful ways.

Right and this brings up another very good point. Stalin didn't do what he did alone he had help. Lots and lots of help by lots of men and women. Those that resisted will be reward we hope both in history and in the afterlife. They will also be an example to their fellow country men and women that you can do the right thing even if it means risking your own life. They would be considered heroes and heroines in my book. Some rebels are going to die that is just the way it is.



Many did, and they did not succeed. God had the power stop Stalin, but instead let millions suffer so Stalin could have free-will.

We could also have done something as well. We could not let this maniac come to power in the first place. Did we know at the time, well I think we knew he was not exactly a nice guy, what do you think?

He is purely good. We know from both his actions and his words.

What actions? He forgives, occasionally. But according to the Bible he has no qualms about killing innocents. What is more, he once took away the sacred "free-will" of a certain Pharaoh--not to make that man good, but to make him evil.

Words mean nothing--how do we know God is not lying?




You gave him mercy when he didn't deserve it of course you should be commended then.

Christ recommends that--I am surprised that not many Christians listen to him.



Right and this brings up another very good point. Stalin didn't do what he did alone he had help. Lots and lots of help by lots of men and women. Those that resisted will be reward we hope both in history and in the afterlife. They will also be an example to their fellow country men and women that you can do the right thing even if it means risking your own life. They would be considered heroes and heroines in my book. Some rebels are going to die that is just the way it is.

That is the way it is because God allows it.


We could also have done something as well. We could not let this maniac come to power in the first place. Did we know at the time, well I think we knew he was not exactly a nice guy, what do you think?

He was our ally.

http://cidoc.ics.forth.gr/crm_core/images/yalta.jpg

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/Nachkriegsjahre_photoGrosseDrei/index.jpg

What actions? He forgives, occasionally. But according to the Bible he has no qualms about killing innocents. What is more, he once took away the sacred "free-will" of a certain Pharaoh--not to make that man good, but to make him evil.

Words mean nothing--how do we know God is not lying?

He wrote the in stone and gave them to us. He sent his only son to die for us.


Pharaoh, yes, a man who did not even believe in him. A man who probably committed many acts against his wishes even if he did know such as Incest possibly, Adultery possibly. Of thinking that he himself was God. Who oppressed his people for 400 years. He was not innocent. As for hardening his heart, I do not know the reason for that. He could have just let them go and not acted on his large desire to oppress the Jews. As you already know from the story he had many opportunities to do.


Christ recommends that--I am surprised that not many Christians listen to him.

We do listen to him. He was an envoy of peace. He was the best example of what mankind could be like if we would only try. His words were for peaceful human, law abiding humans. If you find yourself in that situation you have a choice then although you will risk pain.


That is the way it is because God allows it.

The rules are the same for all. Punishment may have to wait until the afterlife.


He was our ally.

http://cidoc.ics.forth.gr/crm_core/images/yalta.jpg

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/Nachkriegsjahre_photoGrosseDrei/index.jpg

Exactly my point we allow him to this. In those pictures we were at war with a common enemy. Which evil was worse, well we chose the Germans, but both were pretty bad.

He wrote the in stone and gave them to us. He sent his only son to die for us.

He obviously can be kind, so he is not evil. Yet he killed many innocents, so I doubt he is purely good.

He could have just let them go and not acted on his large desire to oppress the Jews. As you already know from the story he had many opportunities to do.

He tried to do these things, but God took away his free-will.

We do listen to him. He was an envoy of peace. He was the best example of what mankind could be like if we would only try. His words were for peaceful human, law abiding humans. If you find yourself in that situation you have a choice then although you will risk pain.

So God says we cannot blame him, because it our duty to fight attackers. Then he claims we should "Turn the other cheek".


The rules are the same for all. Punishment may have to wait until the afterlife.

Homosexuals (supposing they are as abominable as you say they are), do not deserve eternal punishment. They did not inflict enough harm (they actually inflicted none) to suffer Hell.



Exactly my point we allow him to this. In those pictures we were at war with a common enemy. Which evil was worse, well we chose the Germans, but both were pretty bad.

And God allowed both Hitler's and Stalin's crimes. Tens of millions tortured and murdered so two creeps can have free-will.

He obviously can be kind, so he is not evil. Yet he killed many innocents, so I doubt he is purely good.

You are going to have to ask him on this case. I can not answer for him.


He tried to do these things, but God took away his free-will.

Again you are going to ask him on this one.



So God says we cannot blame him, because it our duty to fight attackers. Then he claims we should "Turn the other cheek".

We should try to turn the other cheek. If we can not do this without losing lives of the people we care about. Kick butt!


Homosexuals (supposing they are as abominable as you say they are), do not deserve eternal punishment. They did not inflict enough harm (they actually inflicted none) to suffer Hell.

Firstly I was not judging any one person's actions. If any of you took it that way I sincerely apologize.

Secondly no sin is worse than any other. If they want to escape punishment they can follow the instructions at the beginning of this thread.

Love God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, and with all your strength. The second is Love your neighbor as yourself.

Accept Jesus as your savior

Accept that everyone has fallen short of the glory of God and make an effort to not sin. When you do sin ask for forgiveness.

Everything else is just adds to your credit. If you can do a few good works all the better.


And God allowed both Hitler's and Stalin's crimes. Tens of millions tortured and murdered so two creeps can have free-will.

Each will have to answer for his/her crimes in the end. All we can do is to seek to prevent them in the future.

You are going to have to ask him on this case. I can not answer for him.

I did, he refused to answer.

Again you are going to ask him on this one.

I did, he refused to answer. Maybe he does not like me. Could you ask him?



We should try to turn the other cheek. If we can not do this without losing lives of the people we care about. Kick butt!


You said I should do some rather rude things to the "chainer".

Firstly I was not judging any one person's actions. If any of you took it that way I sincerely apologize.

Secondly no sin is worse than any other. If they want to escape punishment they can follow the instructions at the beginning of this thread.

Love God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, and with all your strength. The second is Love your neighbor as yourself.

Accept Jesus as your savior

Accept that everyone has fallen short of the glory of God and make an effort to not sin. When you do sin ask for forgiveness.

Everything else is just adds to your credit. If you can do a few good works all the better.


I do not think all of those who are going to be tortured for eternity ought to be, and I find it difficult to believe an all-loving God would disagree.

Each will have to answer for his/her crimes in the end. All we can do is to seek to prevent them in the future.

I would prefer a God who prevents the crimes to one that just tortures the criminal to our satisfaction.

I did, he refused to answer.


I did, he refused to answer. Maybe he does not like me. Could you ask him?

He doesn't answer me either but maybe someday. Maybe we can go fishing together or something
:)


You said I should do some rather rude things to the "chainer".

Yeah well that is me not Jesus.



I do not think all of those who are going to be tortured for eternity ought to be, and I find it difficult to believe an all-loving God would disagree.

Like when your own crew rebels against you. I might be pissed as well. Not only did they go against his wishes but tried to create a revolution. What kind of being rebels against an all powerful entity that he has no hope of out doing? What did you think was going to happen? Out of his mind.

Yeah I know mostly Milton but it supposedly happened.




I would prefer a God who prevents the crimes to one that just tortures the criminal to our satisfaction.

We have to wait for paradise for that.

He doesn't answer me either but maybe someday. Maybe we can go fishing together or something
:)

But what makes you certain that he is all-loving? Maybe he is just an all-powerful being who sometimes makes mistakes, and looses his temper like everyone else? Sometimes he is kind, other times he is mean, occasionally he feels sorry, other times he feels happy.


Yeah well that is me not Jesus.

:$ A devout Christian who's advice contradicts Christ's.


Like when your own crew rebels against you. I might be pissed as well. Not only did they go against his wishes but tried to create a revolution. What kind of being rebels against an all powerful entity that he has no hope of out doing? What did you think was going to happen? Out of his mind.

Yeah I know mostly Milton but it supposedly happened.

Perhaps a ruler with limited power and a bad temper might be forced to take stringent action. But an immortal being with unlimited power and an all-loving attitude should not condemn so many to so much suffering. Hell, even the American government is more benevolent than God (no "cruel or unusual punishment").

We have to wait for paradise for that.

Why?

But what makes you certain that he is all-loving? Maybe he is just an all-powerful being who sometimes makes mistakes, and looses his temper like everyone else? Sometimes he is kind, other times he is mean, occasionally he feels sorry, other times he feels happy.

I think and I hope and I pray that he sees us for what we could be instead of what we are. We have the potential for great acts of mercy, kindness, thoughtfulness, and gentleness. Likewise we have the capacity for great evil. Sometimes we start out with the right idea but get lost somewhere along the way. Sometimes we sit back when we could do something. It is very difficult from our vantage point to see what will happen if we fail to act. I hope he knows that. I think he does. I think he is wonderful and makes a really great planet. We just need to step up and become what we are capable of becoming.



:$ A devout Christian who's advice contradicts Christ's.

Jesus was right where you can try to avoid a fight.

My advice when you can't, kick butt. 911 changed pretty much everything for me. It is not just your own life that you risk if you fail to act. So it all about choices, how do you choose to go if you have to. Are you going to be a sheep and just let it happen or take action and see what happens. We all die sooner or later it just how would you like to be remembered? I pray that I have the metal I have now when I am faced with a potentially deadly situation.



Perhaps a ruler with limited power and a bad temper might be forced to take stringent action. But an immortal being with unlimited power and an all-loving attitude would should not condemn so many to so much suffering. Hell, even the American government is more benevolent than God (no "cruel or unusual punishment).

Hell was created supposedly for the fallen angels it was never meant for us. We do know they way to avoid this and yet again some of us take no action. Either he bends the rules or he sticks to them and in that way it is fair to all. Who's to say maybe he does rule on a case by case basis. It remains to be seen but the critical thing is why take that chance, you already know what to do.


Why?

You have a point there. Why wait? Let's make this place the best it can possibly be. Just for an example do you know with just 2 countries. The USA and Canada we could end world hunger if we put our minds to it and yet we are ruled by the all mighty dollar. Farmers are paid in this country not to grow things to affect the price of grain?

We can do something and yet we do not, why?

I will tell you why ...

The Armor of God
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

19Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

Side note that is what I want my title to be. Ambassador in Chains. Alice in Chains is probably a little cooler but that is not bad either.

I think and I hope and I pray that he sees us for what we could be instead of what we are. We have the potential for great acts of mercy, kindness, thoughtfulness, and gentleness. Likewise we have the capacity for great evil. Sometimes we start out with the right idea but get lost somewhere along the way. Sometimes we sit back when we could do something. It is very difficult from our vantage point to see what will happen if we fail to act. I hope he knows that. I think he does. I think he is wonderful and makes a really great planet. We just need to step up and become what we are capable of becoming.

He makes a really great planet? For you, sure. Maybe if you saw some of the pictures of the Darfur Massacre you would feel differently.




Jesus was right where you can try to avoid a fight.

My advice when you can't, kick butt. 911 changed pretty much everything for me. It is not just your own life that you risk if you fail to act. So it all about choices, how do you choose to go if you have to. Are you going to be a sheep and just let it happen or take action and see what happens. We all die sooner or later it just how would you like to be remembered? I pray that I have the metal I have now when I am faced with a potentially deadly situation.

Christ was a total pacifist. Do you truly understand what "Turn the other cheek" means? If someone starts hitting your face, you offer him the other the cheek; if he starts sawing off your leg, you offer him the other leg.




Hell was created supposedly for the fallen angels it was never meant for us. We do know they way to avoid this and yet again some of us take no action. Either he bends the rules or he sticks to them and in that way it is fair to all. Who's to say maybe he does rule on a case by case basis. It remains to be seen but the critical thing is why take that chance, you already know what to do.

So, many of us are stupid dips. I would still expect an all-loving God to forgive stupid dips.


You have a point there. Why wait? Let's make this place the best it can possibly be.

God could make this place "the best it can possibly be". He could make this a paradise, but instead fills it with theft, poverty, disease, rape, murder, and NSG.

Just for an example do you know with just 2 countries. The USA and Canada we could end world hunger if we put our minds to it and yet we are ruled by the all mighty dollar. Farmers are paid in this country not to grow things to affect the price of grain?

Are you intending to run for President?

We do not end world hunger--and we do not suffer for it.

http://www.ourworldfoundation.org.uk/0021172.jpg

He does. God could feed him.

We can do something and yet we do not, why?


God could, too. He has a much greater power than we do, and is (supposedly) a loving father.

I will tell you why ...

The Armor of God
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

19Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

http://osmoothie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/holocaust-remnants2.gif

There are numerous Christian Ministries that endeavor everyday to feed, cloth and
drill water wells in Africa. So instead of accusing God of not doing anything shouldn't we be asking ourselves what we are going to do about it?

There are numerous Christian Ministries that endeavor everyday to feed, cloth and
drill water wells in Africa.

I commend your efforts. I think Christians are doing a great a job alleviating the pain of poverty.

So instead of accusing God of not doing anything shouldn't we be asking ourselves what we are going to do about it?

I am doing things; but God demands worship, I do not. If I am going to worship God as an all-loving perfect being, I expect to see some action on his part.

Love God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, and with all your strength. The second is Love your neighbor as yourself.

I do that. I love God and worship God and pray daily.

Accept Jesus as your savior
I do not believe Jesus asks for this nor requires it.

Accept that everyone has fallen short of the glory of God and make an effort to not sin. When you do sin ask for forgiveness.

I do that as well though I feel that sin is closer to animal tendencies, and is more ignorance.


Everything else is just adds to your credit. If you can do a few good works all the better.

If you think all you have to do is be "saved" to be close to God I would say you are very wrong. You should try to embody Love and Charity if possible, as Jesus lived as an example of. Actually the more spiritual and pure you are the closer to God you are. I believe the Earth is so bad because this mortal existence is temporary, and God wants us to acknowledge mainly him.

If everyone indeed followed Jesus's lifelong example, and all Christians REALLY DID follow Jesus's example of Love and Charity then the world would be almost perfect (or a lot better than now) because most supposedly Christian nations filled with supposedly Christian wealthy people would alleviate ALL hunger they could, and alleviate as much disease as possible. Instead people need to keep 90% of their income for their own pleasures, their $200+ thousand dollar houses, and their luxury cars.

Matthew 19:23-24 KJV
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

UHOH! A lot of Christians are not going to make it by Jesus Christ's own words if read as literally as most Christians read everything else in the Bible (conveniently ignoring verses like these). Especially many of the supposed Christians in the wealthy western world. But lets focus on the only single verse where he mentions he is the way, the truth, and the light (which sounds like other mystical writings) and ignore some of the more important verses he teaches.

I realize that most Christians who believe Jesus is the only way are Paulians actually.

I realize that most Christians who believe Jesus is the only way are Paulians actually.


What does Ron Paul have to do with this? Jesus IS the only way to the Father. God inspires Christians to feed, cloth, and give water to all poor people of the Earth. So he is doing something to help. So the question remains .... what will you all do to help them?

I do that. I love God and worship God and pray daily.


I do not believe Jesus asks for this nor requires it.



I do that as well though I feel that sin is closer to animal tendencies, and is more ignorance.




If you think all you have to do is be "saved" to be close to God I would say you are very wrong. You should try to embody Love and Charity if possible, as Jesus lived as an example of. Actually the more spiritual and pure you are the closer to God you are. I believe the Earth is so bad because this mortal existence is temporary, and God wants us to acknowledge mainly him.

If everyone indeed followed Jesus's lifelong example, and all Christians REALLY DID follow Jesus's example of Love and Charity then the world would be almost perfect (or a lot better than now) because most supposedly Christian nations filled with supposedly Christian wealthy people would alleviate ALL hunger they could, and alleviate as much disease as possible. Instead people need to keep 90% of their income for their own pleasures, their $200+ thousand dollar houses, and their luxury cars.

Matthew 19:23-24 KJV
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

UHOH! A lot of Christians are not going to make it by Jesus Christ's own words if read as literally as most Christians read everything else in the Bible (conveniently ignoring verses like these). Especially many of the supposed Christians in the wealthy western world. But lets focus on the only single verse where he mentions he is the way, the truth, and the light (which sounds like other mystical writings) and ignore some of the more important verses he teaches.



So now you are getting into the faith vs works realm. James comes to mind:

James 2
Favoritism Forbidden
1My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder."[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12[B]Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!


Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.




This has to be one of my favorite lines

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.



You are right we need to back it up with action. I think the way it works is first you get the faith and then come the deeds. However reading it just the way it is it could be considered contradictory.

When however you look at the intent and the context it says something very different. You have to put in practice what you believe not just pay it lip service.

/thread... it wouldn't appear so. Funny, that, with religious threads .... :(

It not possible to prevent them without affecting Free Will. If you can think of a way. Tell him may be he will do it...

God is supposedly omnipotent. In other words, it is possible for god to prevent evil without affecting free will. And an omnibenevolent being would definitely avoid undue suffering. Yet evil exists. Therefore god is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent. Or possibly neither.

God is supposedly omnipotent. In other words, it is possible for god to prevent evil without affecting free will. And an omnibenevolent being would definitely avoid undue suffering. Yet evil exists. Therefore god is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent. Or possibly neither.


Satan is the evil one, not God ... this is pretty simple. So why don't you get it? God is giving satan enough rope to hang himself, and satans time here is nearly at an end. You must choose, choose wisely.

satan is the evil one, not god ... This is pretty simple. So why don't you get it? God is giving satan enough rope to hang himself, and satans time here is nearly at an end. You must choose, choose wisely.I CHOOSE YOU, PIKATCHU!

notinallcaps