NationStates Jolt Archive

Nutshell: Alberto Fujimori, former President of Peru (1990-2000), has been sentenced to 25 years' imprisonment (http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN0746237820090407).

Thoughts?

Hale-fucking-llujah!!!!

Brought economic stability and uprooted terrorism and in the process violated civil rights, is that the case in a nutshell?

Wow, doesn't that sound familiar. :p

the tupac amaru revolutionary movement was the first revolutionary group i learned anything about, so fujimori counts as my first capitalist oppressor

Fujimori did bring very profound economic changes - for better or worse, or both - and he did (for the most part) end the civil war there. However, he was also a massive kleptocrat (embezled $600 million+ according to Transparency International), and committed gross human rights abuses, including the forced sterilization of hundreds of thousands of indigenous women.

I'd say he deserves to be in prison.

the tupac amaru revolutionary movement was the first revolutionary group i learned anything about, so fujimori counts as my first capitalist oppressor

And a famous rapper was named after the guy for whom that movement was named. ;)

fixed the economy but squashed a few hippies. He should have gotten a medal not a prison sentence.

In my opinion, almost every single Latin-American country has been plagued by civil war and economic mismanagement along with corruption and human rights abuses. So when a right wing government comes along that atleast sucessfully stabalizes society and solves two out of 4 of those issues, even somewhat, that is better than what Leftist governments in Latin-America historically do, which is destablize society, the economy and are corrupt and commit human rights abuses.

Fujimori did bring very profound economic changes - for better or worse, or both - and he did (for the most part) end the civil war there. However, he was also a massive kleptocrat (embezled $600 million+ according to Transparency International), and committed gross human rights abuses, including the forced sterilization of hundreds of thousands of indigenous women.

I'd say he deserves to be in prison.

Sounds about right.

Nutshell: Alberto Fujimori, former President of Peru (1990-2000), has been sentenced to 25 years' imprisonment (http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN0746237820090407).

Thoughts?

I call a toast for the rule of law!

Oh great, I'm gonna hear about this for the next few weeks now... *grumbles*

Jeez, violate a few measly human rights and they condemn you forever...or I guess 25 years, in this case.

Jeez, violate a few measly human rights and they condemn you forever...or I guess 25 years, in this case.

That's what happens when you let those dirty leftists live.

Any man who crushes scum like Sendero Luminoso deserves a medal, not a prison cell.

Oh great, I'm gonna hear about this for the next few weeks now... *grumbles*

Haha... sucks to be you.

Anyway I think its awesome he got to be dictator, its a story that can put hope into any evil genius's labyrinthine mind.

The Shining Path are scum, of the lowest variety, but many innocent people were tortured, killed, "disappeared," etc. under Fujimori's government, too.

In a fight against murderous organizations like the Shining Path, many actions otherwise reprehensible become possible, and sometimes necessary. Such actions will always be controversial, but clearly they can be argued as exigencies of the situation.

Fujimori's problem was that he continued to conduct such actions, and others designed solely to enrich himself and his cronies, after the fight was won. This is a fair sentence.

So he killed some communist scumbags, and now has to go to prison?

So he killed some communist scumbags, and now has to go to prison?

No, he stole millions of dollars from the Peruvian people, so now he has to go to prison. The fact that he saved the country before that doesn't give him a "get out of jail free" card.

Hale-fucking-llujah!!!!

Hale-vaffancul-lujah!!! ;)
No, he stole millions of dollars from the Peruvian people, so now he has to go to prison.

A bit more than that: from the OP article,

[...]was found guilty in his own country of rights abuses.
A three-judge panel convicted him for ordering a military death squad to carry out two massacres that killed 25 people during his 1990-2000 rule.

Rot in jail Fujimori you sick bastard!

Yeah... as I remain convinced you can in fact have a stable economy and battle terrorism without extrajudicial killings and clamping down on civil rights, a jail sentence is in order. No one gets arrested for what they did right.

I thought this thread was going to be about a circus performer

The list of US-supported heads of state being charged with horrific crimes seems to be getting longer and longer.

The list of US-supported heads of state being charged with horrific crimes seems to be getting longer and longer.

And always will. We can support governments we think are going the right way, but we can't stop them doing things we don't like, then or later.

The only other option is isolationism - which isn't an option in the modern world.

And always will. We can support governments we think are going the right way, but we can't stop them doing things we don't like, then or later.

The only other option is isolationism - which isn't an option in the modern world.

The US government could easily stop supporting those governments when they do such horrendous things, or even better, not support coups that put obvious maniacs into power. Or the US government could simply stop meddling in the affairs of sovereign states.

Many nations are capable of having relations with other countries without trying to strongarm the local government for their own ends. What makes the US so special?

Most maniacs aren't obvious maniacs until well after they're in charge...at
which point, it's too late to pull the plug.

What support did the US provide Fujimori?

Most maniacs aren't obvious maniacs until well after they're in charge...at
which point, it's too late to pull the plug.

My readings of history show that the CIA was usually aware of the bloodthirstiness of those they helped put in power.

My readings of history show that the CIA was usually aware of the bloodthirstiness of those they helped put in power.

Sure - they were at least as bloodthirsty as the maniacs they were deposing.

The problem, G-o-G, is that you still think there are good guys. Reality is not as nice - everyone has their own points of view, everyone's trying to put their interests first. The US happens to be rather good at this - which is why the US has a great standard of living and more money than god. Do not imagine that anyone else, in the same situation, would do any different.

Rot in jail Fujimori you sick bastard!

A body count of 25 is quite low for a bloody tyrant, ain't it? :D

Before I got ripped to shreds, I'd like to point out I realise the body count here is not a complete listing of his actions. I was somewhat amused by how Risottia put an emphasis on just this one - was this some kind of sarcasm, or sending out death squads is particularly atrocious to you? Just asking, no sarcasm on my part intended.

The Shining Path are scum, of the lowest variety, but many innocent people were tortured, killed, "disappeared," etc. under Fujimori's government, too.
We call them "desaparecidos".

The list of US-supported heads of state being charged with horrific crimes seems to be getting longer and longer.
Maybe compiling a list is in order? Nominations?

Sure - they were at least as bloodthirsty as the maniacs they were deposing.

The problem, G-o-G, is that you still think there are good guys. Reality is not as nice - everyone has their own points of view, everyone's trying to put their interests first. The US happens to be rather good at this - which is why the US has a great standard of living and more money than god. Do not imagine that anyone else, in the same situation, would do any different.

You have no evidence to indicate that the people deposed were as bad as those supported. But if you wish to conitune believing that, I would suggest ignoring things like Pinochet and Allende, Videla and Isabel Peron, Somoza and Sacasa, Banzer and Torres, etc. I am just discussing Latin America here, to stay somewhat related to the OP.

You seem to be saying that all countries are equally amoral in their dealings with other nations. I do not think this is the case. While this sort of behaviour is most often seen at the international level, it would be foolish to conclude that all behaviour at the international level can be described this way.

You have no evidence to indicate that the people deposed were as bad as those supported. But if you wish to conitune believing that, I would suggest ignoring things like Pinochet and Allende, Videla and Isabel Peron, Somoza and Sacasa, Banzer and Torres, etc. I am just discussing Latin America here, to stay somewhat related to the OP.

You seem to be saying that all countries are equally amoral in their dealings with other nations. I do not think this is the case. While this sort of behaviour is most often seen at the international level, it would be foolish to conclude that all behaviour at the international level can be described this way.

Perhaps. But I cannot get away from the historical fact that when Britain was on top, it did the exact same thing. When the USSR was vying for the position, exact same thing. Spain, at it's height, exact same thing. Rome...Persia...Greece...Egypt...

Nobody sets out to create a monster - they just support the faction that suits them best. And no, we can't generally foresee what they're going to do if the man we support gets into power. Maybe we'll have a Pinochet, maybe a Raul Alfonsin. And in the precise case we're talking about, the US is in no way to blame for Fujimori's rise to power - he was freely elected by the people of Peru. The support he got was to fight the Shining Path - and however bad Fujimori was, the other option was far, far worse.

Perhaps. But I cannot get away from the historical fact that when Britain was on top, it did the exact same thing. When the USSR was vying for the position, exact same thing. Spain, at it's height, exact same thing. Rome...Persia...Greece...Egypt...

Like I said, it is not unknown at the international level. That does not mean it is universal. There is a reason why no one complains about Canadian or Finnish imperialism.

Nobody sets out to create a monster - they just support the faction that suits them best.

What if the faction that suited them best was a monstrous one?

And no, we can't generally foresee what they're going to do if the man we support gets into power. Maybe we'll have a Pinochet, maybe a Raul Alfonsin. And in the precise case we're talking about, the US is in no way to blame for Fujimori's rise to power - he was freely elected by the people of Peru. The support he got was to fight the Shining Path - and however bad Fujimori was, the other option was far, far worse.

One could argue that continued military support in the guise of 'anti-narcotic' aid after Fujimori's illegal suspension of the Peruvian Congress was essentially supporting someone after it has become evident that they are corrupt. I will grant you that the majority of civilian deaths in the civil war were at the hands of the Sendero Luminoso rather than government forces.

But even then, it has been shown that his government engaged in many human rights abuses during that time, many of which are eerily similar to charges being levelled at former US administration officials.

There is a reason why no one complains about Canadian or Finnish imperialism.
Namely, that neither Canada nor Finland has ever had any power. His point was that every nation which has been a great power has done similar things.

Brought economic stability and uprooted terrorism and in the process violated civil rights, is that the case in a nutshell?

Wow, doesn't that sound familiar. :p

Not really..

Like I said, it is not unknown at the international level. That does not mean it is universal. There is a reason why no one complains about Canadian or Finnish imperialism.

Not a fair comparison. I believe it was Frederick Douglass who said that the true test of a man was whether, given the opportunity, he would become a slaveholder; likewise, we'd have to see if Finland or Canada would act the same way if they were the major governing power of the world. Inability is not virtue.



What if the faction that suited them best was a monstrous one?

Then, they must ask questions, such as: is their opponent also monstrous? Then we do not make the situation worse, and by our influence may improve things. If their opponent is not monstrous, then is the goal worth achieving by monstrous means? Usually, no, but sometimes yes.



One could argue that continued military support in the guise of 'anti-narcotic' aid after Fujimori's illegal suspension of the Peruvian Congress was essentially supporting someone after it has become evident that they are corrupt.

The argument can be made; it can also be refuted. Fujimori initially suspended the Congress - a clearly and undeniably unconstitutional act - in order to fight the Shining Path without interference from a recalcitrant and defeatist Congress - or so he has claimed, at least. It is neither unheard of, nor necessarily wrong for a national leader to make otherwise illegal decisions in times of extreme emergency, "the wrong thing for the right reasons". The US had the choice at that point to either leave him twisting in the wind and pretty much certain to lose against the SP, or give him the benefit of the doubt. Ultimately, I don't think they made the wrong decision here.


But even then, it has been shown that his government engaged in many human rights abuses during that time, many of which are eerily similar to charges being levelled at former US administration officials.

Yes, it has been shown that this occurred. And it is fair that he answer those charges.

Interesting thread.

Whatever good things a (wo)man does (curtailing the Shining Path) can never excuse a more blatant evil (the death squads against innocent people and the embezzlement). Let Fujimori go to jail for the crimes he did commit.

I thought this thread was going to be about a circus performer

Sorry to disappoint. :(

Any man who crushes scum like Sendero Luminoso deserves a medal, not a prison cell.

Any man who violates civil rights of several innocents deserves a prison cell and constant anal rape. But why would I expect you, Leeroy, to know what the hell you're talking about?

Any man who violates civil rights of several innocents deserve a prison cell and constant anal rape. But why would I expect you, Leeroy, to know what the hell you're talking about?

Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

So he killed some communist scumbags, and now has to go to prison?

No, you're thinking last week's GI Joe re-run. Reality is way more complicated than you seem to think, and the reality is, Fujimori killed lots of innocents and screwed with the rule of law.

Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

In this case, Fujimori's.

In this case, Fujimori's.

So your saying he is a martyr for the cause of law and order?
How noble of him.

Any man who violates civil rights of several innocents deserve a prison cell and constant anal rape. But why would I expect you, Leeroy, to know what the hell you're talking about?

What if they want that!? :eek:

So your saying he is a martyr for the cause of law and order?
How noble of him.

If an unwilling one.

死ね, 藤森 謙也.

What if they want that!? :eek:

Then, 藤森 謙也 DOESN'T get it. :p

Then, 藤森 謙也 DOESN'T get it. :p

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38493000/jpg/_38493889_fujimori150ap.jpg

"Why not?"

If an unwilling one.

死ね, 藤森 謙也.

So he is the equivalent of a saint for Peru. And everyone should honor him for his noble sacrifice. Or maybe the patron saint of democracy in all of South America.

So he is the equivalent of a saint for Peru. And everyone should honor him for his noble sacrifice. Or maybe the patron saint of democracy in all of South America.

No. Rather, his soul should be bound to the confines of Hell for all eternity.

So he is the equivalent of a saint for Peru. And everyone should honor him for his noble sacrifice. Or maybe the patron saint of democracy in all of South America.

The good things Fujimori did are outweighed by the bad; and even if the good outweighed the bad, he should still be punished for his crimes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38493000/jpg/_38493889_fujimori150ap.jpg

"Why not?"

You do realize that, by definition, "rape" is when someone DOESN'T want it? :p

You do realize that, by definition, "rape" is when someone DOESN'T want it? :p

Touché. :tongue:

The good things Fujimori did are outweighed by the bad; and even if the good outweighed the bad, he should still be punished for his crimes.

Unless he did the bad so that way the good will come about afterward. I will use my inside connections with the Palatine I mean the pope to get him fast tracked to sainthood when he dies.

Unless he did the bad so that way the good will come about afterward. I will use my inside connections with the Palatine I mean the pope to get him fast tracked to sainthood when he dies.

No can do. Already bound his soul to my toilet brush.

No can do. Already bound his soul to my toilet brush.

You are to challenge the dark lord of the Sith? I mean pope he can excommunicate you with a snap of his fingers.

No can do. Already bound his soul to my toilet brush.

My advice: Get a new brush. :p

My advice: Get a new brush. :p

He is sacred the pope will make him patron saint of Brazil if the does.

He is sacred the pope will make him patron saint of Brazil if the does.

Scared or sacred? In any case, I would be terrified of the Pope. He looks like Emperor Palpatine.:eek:

Scared or sacred? In any case, I would be terrified of the Pope. He looks like Emperor Palpatine.:eek:

And appoints dictators to the saint hood with uncanny ease.

And appoints dictators to the saint hood with uncanny ease.

Yes... he does... now that you mention it...

>.>

<.<

And appoints dictators to the saint hood with uncanny ease.

Go on...

Go on...

He just set up Bush W. to be beatified.

Go on...

Doesn't that sound, suspiciously like... Commander Ikari Gendou!:eek:

Doesn't that sound, suspiciously like... Commander Ikari Gendou!:eek:

*Folds hands in front of face*

Doesn't that sound, suspiciously like... Commander Ikari Gendou!:eek:

too much neo genesis for you.

*Folds hands in front of face*

http://www.nervarchives.com/images/icon.200x150.gendo.jpg

too much neo genesis for you.

Let me be or your doom will be the Spear of Longinus!

Let me be or your doom will be the Spear of Longinus!

what good is a weapon that if you use it gets stuck on the moon ?

what good is a weapon that if you use it gets stuck on the moon ?

You got a point. I grant it. Still, let me be or I will spear you with the spear and this one won't tell you you're a Womanizer, and shyte. Yes...

You got a point. I grant it. Still, let me be or I will spear you with the spear and this one won't tell you you're a Womanizer, and shyte. Yes...

I ama womanizer ?? quite the opposite. Women always hurt me. I am such a poor boy who is always taken advantage of.

I ama womanizer ?? quite the opposite. Women always hurt me. I am such a poor boy who is always taken advantage of.

You sound like someone I know... too much really... except you're not using the ''innocent Southern boy'' routine. Hm...

<.<

>.>

You sound like someone I know... too much really... except you're not using the ''innocent Southern boy'' routine. Hm...

<.<

>.>

I am a southern Gentleman.

I am a southern Gentleman.

Do you chase women around like a rooster with an itch?

Do you chase women around like a rooster with an itch?

Roosters with itches chase women?

Do you chase women around like a rooster with an itch?

Its the opposite they come to me. I am but a sweet and proper southern boy.
Wait a minute.... Spanish likes anime. Are you that Spanish chick i hooked up with about 5 years ago?

Roosters with itches chase women?

According to this Southern expression... yes...

Wait a minute.... Spanish likes anime. Are you that Spanish chick i hooked up with about 5 years ago?

Oh no, that was my twin sister. BTW, you owe her 15,000 euros on child support. *nod*

Roosters with itches chase women?

Hen is a term for woman down here. So if a guy chases women around he is often called a rooster.

Oh no, that was my twin sister. BTW, you owe her 15,000 euros on child support. *nod*

Bull shit I wear condoms religiously until after 6 months of dating and proof she is on the pill. Well if you are I am sorry it ended the way it did. Didn't mean to be an asshole back then.

Bull shit I wear condoms religiously until after 6 months of dating and proof she is on the pill. Well if you are I am sorry it ended the way it did. Didn't mean to be an asshole back then.

You need to stop using drugs, you know.

Oh, and she ruffied you.

My my my this thread got real useless real fast. Even with g&d on ignore, I still just see a ton of empty boxes :p

You need to stop using drugs, you know.

Oh, and she ruffied you.

Actually haven't used drugs since that last senorita I had from Mexico destroyed her life on drugs. Always my greatest failure be unable to wake her up.

Actually haven't used drugs since that last senorita I had from Mexico destroyed her life on drugs. Always my greatest failure be unable to wake her up.

Ok, I'm about to enter a psychotic state if this doesn't stop.:eek:

Ok, I'm about to enter a psychotic state if this doesn't stop.:eek:

Seems rum and coffee makes me a sap.

Guys, could we please stick to the topic? Thanks.

Guys, could we please stick to the topic? Thanks.

There really isn't anything more to discuss. A guy committed some crimes and is in jail, yeah he saved the Peruvian economy while he did it but drowning the baby to make the crib clean is a bad idea.

There really isn't anything more to discuss.

If that's so, then let's leave it at that and let the thread die.

If that's so, then let's leave it at that and let the thread die.

where is the fun in that.

where is the fun in that.

If you want to continue, you can do so in a new thread, or relocate the conversation to the Spam forum.

Its the opposite they come to me. I am but a sweet and proper southern boy.

Hey. No stealing my routine!

Hey. No stealing my routine!

Yes, yours is enough as it is, Gallo-dono. <_<