NationStates Jolt Archive

What is metal? What is the defining characteristic that links Iron Maiden to say, Cradle of Filth, but excludes bands like Nirvana, and according to some, even bands like Rammstein?

Nirvana is crap. Iron Maiden is not.:D

Metals are sometimes described as a lattice of positive ions surrounded by a cloud of delocalized electrons. They are one of the three groups of elements as distinguished by their ionization and bonding properties, along with the metalloids and nonmetals. On the periodic table, a diagonal line drawn from boron (B) to polonium (Po) separates the metals from the nonmetals. Most elements on this line are metalloids, sometimes called semi-metals; elements to the lower left are metals; elements to the upper right are nonmetals (see the periodic table showing the metals).

An alternative definition[citation needed][unreliable source?] of metals is that they have overlapping conduction bands and valence bands in their electronic structure[2]. This definition opens up the category for metallic polymers and other organic metals, which have been made by researchers and employed in high-tech devices. These synthetic materials often have the characteristic silvery-grey reflectiveness (luster) of elemental metals.

Glad to help. :)

By the way, my favorite metal is Ruthenium.

Glad to help. :)

By the way, my favorite metal is Ruthenium.

*gets a big chunk of Ruthenium and clobbers LG over the head with it*

:p

With roots in blues-rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, massive sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion, extended guitar solos, emphatic beats, and overall loudness. Heavy metal lyrics and performance styles are generally associated with masculinity and machismo


I don't know. Labeling of music has always confused me.

Metal is described as a Hardcore Rock with lots of lyrics and bass. The lyrics can be political, war related, or just anything. Bands like System of a Down, Rise Against, and Rage Against the Machine are polictical and war relates/killing/death. While Nirvana is low and has good guitar bu not enough. If you listen to any of the three bands above, you'll know what I'm talking about. :D Hope this helps.

I don't know. Labeling of music has always confused me.

Yeah, but people seem to be very confident in differentiating between metal and non metal bands. I can think of many bands that use loud, distorted guitars and long solos, that aren't considered metal.

i'd argue that music genres work on family resemblances rather than necessary and sufficient conditions.

Bands like System of a Down, Rise Against, and Rage Against the Machine are polictical and war relates/killing/death.

Great, but none of those bands are metal.

Metal is a less poppy, heavier rock. Its hard to explain. When you listen to enough of the real stuff, you know it when you hear it.

A key aspect of most metal is the level of musicianship, even if that musicianship isnt in the form of technicallity. Metal also tends to incorperate aspects of classical music, more in regards to theory and less in regards to sound.

Yeah, but people seem to be very confident in differentiating between metal and non metal bands. I can think of many bands that use loud, distorted guitars and long solos, that aren't considered metal.

Us metalheads can be very protective of our genre. Especially those of us who have been one for a very long time. Metal comes and goes as the new 'trend', and the posers that infiltrate the scene tend to annoy us more then posers in other scenes.

While Nirvana is low and has good guitar bu not enough.

What do you mean by low? Also, I'd propose that many Nirvarna songs have as much (if not more) loud and distorted guitars as many Metal bands, although I wouldn't actually label them metal myself.

Metal also tends to incorperate aspects of classical music, more in regards to theory and less in regards to sound.

Depends on the musician/band. Listen to Iron Maiden and then Malmsteen. They both incorporate Classical theory, but Malmsteen goes all out with it.

Thrash is metal.

Depends on the musician/band. Listen to Iron Maiden and then Malmsteen. They both incorporate Classical theory, but Malmsteen goes all out with it.

Of course, thats why I should have said usually simply in the form of theory. Sometimes bands incorperate style, arrangements, and instruments from 'classical' music, but my point was that incorperating those things is not a criteria.

Yeah, but people seem to be very confident in differentiating between metal and non metal bands. I can think of many bands that use loud, distorted guitars and long solos, that aren't considered metal.

With bands of today, the boundaries of genre's are quite blurred with crossovers in genre's by artists being quite common so yea it is quite hard to differentiate between a metal band and a non metal band. What makes a band like Iron Maiden metal is that they were a defining act of metal itself while still a young genre. They were a band brought that epic, bigger than life feel to what was generally regarded as trash.

A band like Nirvana never was metal, nor ever intended to be metal. In fact Nirvana was rather the opposite of what metal was and had become. They weren't the over the top and ungodly loud type of music that metal had become known as.

A key aspect of most metal is the level of musicianship, even if that musicianship isnt in the form of technicallity. Metal also tends to incorperate aspects of classical music, more in regards to theory and less in regards to sound.

Seconded. Another favourite genre of mine happens to be punk and the similarities in both the subject matter, bands themselves and fans are uncanny. Both have this mob mentality that can't quite be compared to any other form of music. The big difference I find is really is the musicianship and not that punk is a poor form of music, but there is just this level of technical awesome that metal has that can't be reached by much other.

*gets a big chunk of Ruthenium and clobbers LG over the head with it*

:p

Ahh! That's gonna leave a bump right next to my protactinium scar. :(

Simply use the Cartman Test of Metal Music. According to Eric Cartman, hippies can not stand the rage of metal music. Thus, if you doubt the 'metal-ness' of any piece of music, simply play it over a speaker system near any group of hippies. Check the dispersal rate compared to the standard model, and if it is in acceptable range, then the music is metal.

I hope this helps, for you will need to have your arsenal fully prepared should a hippie-jam-band-fest start up in your town. God be with you.

Simply use the Cartman Test of Metal Music. According to Eric Cartman, hippies can not stand the rage of metal music. Thus, if you doubt the 'metal-ness' of any piece of music, simply play it over a speaker system near any group of hippies. Check the dispersal rate compared to the standard model, and if it is in acceptable range, then the music is metal.

I hope this helps, for you will need to have your arsenal fully prepared should a hippie-jam-band-fest start up in your town. God be with you.

I must correct that episode. They refer to Slayer as death metal. When in fact, Slayer is thrash.

Ahh! That's gonna leave a bump right next to my protactinium scar. :(

So that's why you no longer appreciate protactinium. Next time, might I suggest that you choose an Alkaline-earth metal? It's soft, cuttable with a knife, and will dissolve away by reacting with atmospheric moisture without the explosive effects that sodium and lithium tend to have.

I must correct that episode. They refer to Slayer as death metal. When in fact, Slayer is thrash.

It's still a sub-type of metal. Granted, actual use of death metal might cause hippies to explode upon auditory exposure. We could probably detail the fact that if we tried, Heavy Metal is hippie Kryptonite, and different types of metal are like different colors of Kryptonite rocks.

So that's why you no longer appreciate protactinium. Next time, might I suggest that you choose an Alkaline-earth metal? It's soft, cuttable with a knife, and will dissolve away by reacting with atmospheric moisture without the explosive effects that sodium and lithium tend to have.

Yes, sodium is bad. My eyebrows have grown back nicely though. :)

It's still a sub-type of metal. Granted, actual use of death metal might cause hippies to explode upon auditory exposure. We could probably detail the fact that if we tried, Heavy Metal is hippie Kryptonite, and different types of metal are like different colors of Kryptonite rocks.

The idea of Cannibal Corpse making hippies explode makes me giggle.

Simply use the Cartman Test of Metal Music. According to Eric Cartman, hippies can not stand the rage of metal music. Thus, if you doubt the 'metal-ness' of any piece of music, simply play it over a speaker system near any group of hippies. Check the dispersal rate compared to the standard model, and if it is in acceptable range, then the music is metal.

I hope this helps, for you will need to have your arsenal fully prepared should a hippie-jam-band-fest start up in your town. God be with you.

So what about me? I dress like a hippy-snowbum guy yet I listen to pretty much metal all the time. Am I a medical anomaly of some sort? A physically superior human being? What?

Yes, sodium is bad. My eyebrows have grown back nicely though. :)

Glad that's the case. Might I suggest that you try Beryllium as your next favorite metal? It doesn't even react with water.

Glad that's the case. Might I suggest that you try Beryllium as your next favorite metal? It doesn't even react with water.

Sounds boring.

The idea of Cannibal Corpse making hippies explode makes me giggle.

Yet, it's somehow, so very appropriate.

So what about me? I dress like a hippy-snowbum guy yet I listen to pretty much metal all the time. Am I a medical anomaly of some sort? A physically superior human being? What?

Dressing like a hippy does not a hippy make. hippies (unCapitalized for a reason, Grammar be Damned!) ask for an unrealistic socialist doctrine, much like that of China, without realizing both their own good fortune due to capitalist systems and the costs associated with commie-regimes.

If you do ascribe to this, then I'm afraid you're like Superboy-Prime/Superman-Prime: Immune to everything but the exact counter to your physiology. Our crazy parallel Kryptonian had to be kept in a junior red-sun eater. For you...I'll figure it out.

Sounds boring.

How about Radium? Decomposes to Radon and Helium, and even the Radon is still dangerous. Fun times. Plus, it's a luminescent paint additive!

Yet, it's somehow, so very appropriate.



Dressing like a hippy does not a hippy make. hippies (unCapitalized for a reason, Grammar be Damned!) ask for an unrealistic socialist doctrine, much like that of China, without realizing both their own good fortune due to capitalist systems and the costs associated with commie-regimes.

If you do ascribe to this, then I'm afraid you're like Superboy-Prime/Superman-Prime: Immune to everything but the exact counter to your physiology. Our crazy parallel Kryptonian had to be kept in a junior red-sun eater. For you...I'll figure it out.

Hmmm, suppose I don't quite fit in that crowd. But that doesn't represent a good cross-section of hippies. Having grown up in a rather hippy infested town, I can assure you many (especially the old timers) just enjoy a good toke. I'd say its more of the neo-hippy, fresh from the eye-opening experience of college or university that propogate the unrealistic and quite-frankly, dumb socialist-extreme leftest program.

The big difference I find is really is the musicianship and not that punk is a poor form of music, but there is just this level of wankery that metal has that can't be reached by much other.

fixed!

fixed!

:rolleyes:

Iron, lead, scandium, strontium, europium, and their ilk.

Hmmm, suppose I don't quite fit in that crowd. But that doesn't represent a good cross-section of hippies. Having grown up in a rather hippy infested town, I can assure you many (especially the old timers) just enjoy a good toke. I'd say its more of the neo-hippy, fresh from the eye-opening experience of college or university that propogate the unrealistic and quite-frankly, dumb socialist-extreme leftest program.

Well, those are the hippies that metal was found to be most useful for. As for the old-timers: Who the hell is so much a jack@$$ that they want to ban a simple escape whose lethality is well documented as below that of alcohol.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the government. And that accursed and alleged 'moral majority'. But other than them?

How about Radium? Decomposes to Radon and Helium, and even the Radon is still dangerous. Fun times. Plus, it's a luminescent paint additive!

Didn't radium kill Marie Curie?

Well, those are the hippies that metal was found to be most useful for. As for the old-timers: Who the hell is so much a jack@$$ that they want to ban a simple escape whose lethality is well documented as below that of alcohol.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the government. And that accursed and alleged 'moral majority'. But other than them?

Tipper Gore is the bane of my existance.

Didn't radium kill Marie Curie?
Radiation killed Marie Curie. :p

At least now she can kill others too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curium) with radiation... :D

Radiation killed Marie Curie. :p

At least now she can kill others too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curium) with radiation... :D

Yay! :D

Excuse me, I've got to go downtown and finish picking up my collection of sexually transmitted diseases from rough looking hookers.

fixed! :p

Didn't radium kill Marie Curie?

Most of the exposure was actually due to Uranium. Radium was, when discovered, the most radioactive element of the time.

Radiation killed Marie Curie. :p

At least now she can kill others too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curium) with radiation... :D

Not really, Seaborgium works better.

Metal is.

Thrash is metal.

Thrash Metal is metal, Thrashcore is punk, and Cross-Over Thrash is metal meets punk. In fact I'd say "thrash" means more punk, as "Thrash Metal" usually has the punk aesthetic influence.

Metal is like obscenity. You may not always be able to describe it perfectly, but you usually know it when you see it.

If you can't mosh to it, it ain't fuckin' metal.

As for what is Metal:

Heavy metal (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s, largely in England and the United States. With roots in blues-rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, massive sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion, extended guitar solos, emphatic beats, and overall loudness. Heavy metal lyrics and performance styles are generally associated with masculinity and machismo.

Early heavy metal bands such as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple attracted large audiences, though they were often critically reviled, a status common throughout the history of the genre. In the mid-1970s, Judas Priest helped spur the genre's evolution by discarding much of its blues influence; Motörhead introduced a punk rock sensibility and an increasing emphasis on speed. Bands in the New Wave of British Heavy Metal such as Iron Maiden followed in a similar vein. Before the end of the decade, heavy metal had attracted a worldwide following of fans known as "metalheads" or "headbangers".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music

And as for why Nirvana doesnt qualify:

The era of metal's mainstream dominance in North America came to an end in the early 1990s with the emergence of Nirvana and other grunge bands, signaling the popular breakthrough of alternative rock. Grunge acts were influenced by the heavy metal sound, but rejected the excesses of the more popular metal bands, such as their "flashy and virtuosic solos" and "appearance-driven" MTV orientation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#New_fusions:_1990s_and_early_2000s

Nirvana is not metal because it doesn't have enough guitars.

Nirvana is not metal because it doesn't have enough guitars.

How many is required? They went through a period where they had two...but the second one was a douche, and when they dropped him prettymuch all the other Seattle bands told them to keep it a Power Trio, cause they thought he cluttered the sound...


I always thought it was a poor decision, Kurt was a much better guitarist when he didnt have all the pressure on him...

And as for why Nirvana doesnt qualify:

The era of metal's mainstream dominance in North America came to an end in the early 1990s with the emergence of Nirvana and other grunge bands, signaling the popular breakthrough of alternative rock. Grunge acts were influenced by the heavy metal sound, but rejected the excesses of the more popular metal bands, such as their "flashy and virtuosic solos" and "appearance-driven" MTV orientation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#New_fusions:_1990s_and_early_2000s

The bolded parts apply only to bad 80's hair bands...which are not metal, so contrasting Nirvana in that way does not disqualify them from being "metal"

metal is a chemical element whose atoms readily lose electrons to form positive ions, and form metalic bonds between other metal atoms and ionic bonds between nonmetal atoms.

Metal is cold to the touch because it's endothermic or something.

The bolded parts apply only to bad 80's hair bands...which are not metal, so contrasting Nirvana in that way does not disqualify them from being "metal"

Much of the 80's hair bands are metal despite what you think, and Nirvana in no way will ever be metal, sorry.

aggressive, guitar-based and overdriven music, with a bassey sound either coming from the bassist and/or the drummer

any more than that and you start to exclude things that are clearly metal


of course, the real answer is: whatever i say it is. ;)

What is metal? What is the defining characteristic that links Iron Maiden to say, Cradle of Filth, but excludes bands like Nirvana, and according to some, even bands like Rammstein?

Metal, and sometimes hard rock, are polyphony - as blues.
Standard rock, pop etc are monody.

Btw.
Metal is metal. A=A. Take that! No, I meant...

What is metal?
It's like wood, but a bit harder.

Much of the 80's hair bands are metal despite what you think, and Nirvana in no way will ever be metal, sorry.

I never said Nirvana was metal, I said that noting the differences between them and hair bands does not disqualify them from being metal...

...and hair bands will in no way ever be metal, sorry. ;)

Nirvana is crap. Iron Maiden is not.:DWhile the second part of this statement is correct, the first part is wrong, and indeed the first part is more wrong than the second is right.

As for what is Metal:


I've heard people on this thread claim that neither Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath nor Deep Purple are metal. This is why I treat many peoples claims with such suspicion when they declare something absolutely not metal, since they often contradict music historians and journalists. Also, I think people need to remember that music labels are often originally applied by the media, who normally don't even understand the scene exactly.

i'd argue that music genres work on family resemblances rather than necessary and sufficient conditions.
This, pretty much. Carcass sounds similar to Arsis, and both sound more like Metallica or Mr. Bungle, than they sound like Nirvana or the Dresden Dolls.
Metal is a less poppy, heavier rock. Its hard to explain. When you listen to enough of the real stuff, you know it when you hear it.
...Megadeth?
A key aspect of most metal is the level of musicianship, even if that musicianship isnt in the form of technicallity. Metal also tends to incorperate aspects of classical music, more in regards to theory and less in regards to sound.
Hip hop, pop, progressive rock, et al, have all dipped into the Classical pool for one reason or another. Metal prefers certain appropriations (Bach, for example), but that doesn't make it special.
Us metalheads can be very protective of our genre. Especially those of us who have been one for a very long time. Metal comes and goes as the new 'trend', and the posers that infiltrate the scene tend to annoy us more then posers in other scenes.
People like this are the worst part of metal, or any other music scene. You're no better than the assholes who talk about that "goddamned loud kid's music that sounds like shit" and guard the vaunted halls of academic culture against anything produced since World War 2.
Not really, Seaborgium works better.
Seaborgium isn't true metal! It is just a passing fad (aka Transitional Metal) with a half-life you could measure in seconds.
Metal is like obscenity. You may not always be able to describe it perfectly, but you usually know it when you see it.
This. I like metal, and I know it when I hear it. Fuck the purists.

Well, though I may not be able to speak for the rest of metal, I do know this: BLACK METAL IST KRIEG!!!.

In all seriousness, when one listens to enough real metal, they will come to know the difference. Metal means different things for different people, though in the end, I tend to follow the MA (Metal Archives) test as to whether or not a band is metal.

i'd argue that music genres work on family resemblances rather than necessary and sufficient conditions.

Yeah but pretty much all music is in one big family of resemblances, how far removed from the family do you have to be until you are no longer metal?

Alternative = "I don't give a shit."
Metal = "I give a shit about things you hate."
Rock = "I give a shit but I don't care if you do."
Pop = "I give a shit about money."
Country = "I give a shit."
Classical = "I'd give a shit but I'm too pretentious."
Showtunes = "I give a shit, why don't you?"
Spiritual = "I pretend to give a shit."


*Note, these are generalizations meant to entertain and satirize. They should not, in any way, be considered actual characterizations of all examples of the indicated categories. Void where prohibited. Participating locations only. See insert for details. Not valid in TX, AZ, NM, CA and ME.

Alternative = "I don't give a shit."
Metal = "I give a shit about things you hate."
Rock = "I give a shit but I don't care if you do."
Pop = "I give a shit about money."
Country = "I give a shit."
Classical = "I'd give a shit but I'm too pretentious."
Showtunes = "I give a shit, why don't you?"
Spiritual = "I pretend to give a shit."


*Note, these are generalizations meant to entertain and satirize. They should not, in any way, be considered actual characterizations of all examples of the indicated categories. Void where prohibited. Participating locations only. See insert for details. Not valid in TX, AZ, NM, CA and ME.

Alternative: Fuck your standards!
Metal: Fuck you, and fuck this world!
Rock: Fuck yeah!
Pop: Fuck me, baby!
Country: Fuck y'all!
Classical: Fuck you philistines!
Showtunes: Let's all have a gay old fuck!
Spiritual: Fuck Satan!

Metal is characterised by talented musicians producing awful noise. Truly awful. I don't know how you can listen to that shit.

By putting a Cd/Record/Tape/Mp3/MD and pressing play and getting your mind out. Or you could get off the computer, leave the house/flat and watch a band live. . . and then get your mind out.

Yeah but pretty much all music is in one big family of resemblances, how far removed from the family do you have to be until you are no longer metal?
An indeterminate distance.

Genres blur, and drawing a clear line in the sand between metal and x genre is impossible. Sure, we can point to something that clearly is metal, and something that clearly isn't, but there's border-line bands which can't really be distinguished.

Which is a great opportunity to post (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNqm5cH760A) a song by one of my new favourite bands: I Am S/H(im)e[r] As You Am S/H(im)e[r] As You Are Me And We Am I And I Are All Our Together by Giraffes? Giraffes!.

It's not really metal, but it kinda is at times.

Metal is characterised by talented musicians producing awful noise. Truly awful. I don't know how you can listen to that shit.

Because it's good.

Metal seems to be rock and roll with a fast tempo. But what do I know I cant even read music. No wait I think I can sorta. Arent the open spaces FACE and the lines EGBDF? But wait, why are there Es and Fs on both the lines and the open spaces. Arrgggggghhh!

Yeah but pretty much all music is in one big family of resemblances

yeah, but such is life.

how far removed from the family do you have to be until you are no longer metal?

i don't think this is something that can be determined antecedently - there are just variations on previous stuff (with the occasional big innovation) that form things identified by convention as clustering together, and every once in awhile one of those variations will draw its own cluster around it.


you know who has genre-envy bad? electronic music. those fuckers declare a new genre every time one of their songs ends.

...Megadeth?
What part of what I said excludes Megadeth? Unless youre claiming megadeth is poppy, in which cause I laugh at you.
Hip hop, pop, progressive rock, et al, have all dipped into the Classical pool for one reason or another. Metal prefers certain appropriations (Bach, for example), but that doesn't make it special.
Which is why you need more then that to define metal.
People like this are the worst part of metal, or any other music scene. You're no better than the assholes who talk about that "goddamned loud kid's music that sounds like shit" and guard the vaunted halls of academic culture against anything produced since World War 2.
Cool story bro:rolleyes:
Well, though I may not be able to speak for the rest of metal, I do know this: BLACK METAL IST KRIEG!!!.

A Nargaroth fan. I approve.
Metal is characterised by talented musicians producing awful noise. Truly awful. I don't know how you can listen to that shit.
Says the emo kid. Delicious irony.

Emo kid? What?

I never said Nirvana was metal, I said that noting the differences between them and hair bands does not disqualify them from being metal...

...and hair bands will in no way ever be metal, sorry. ;)

:confused: So Van Halen is no longer metal? Same goes for Def Leppard now? How about the glam boys like W.A.S.P., Motley Crue, Quiet Riot and Ratt? Twisted Sister isn't metal anymore!? I must have missed the memo where metal kicked out one of it's largest, most influential and popular genres of all time.

And no Nirvana will never qualify as a metal band, there isn't a gray are for them to sit in, no sideline to hang out on. From there inception, Nirvana and many other grunge bands set out to be everything metal wasn't, skinny ass white boys singing about how rough life was in suburbia. :p

I'd say look at the evolution of it.

What made Black Sabbath metal? They started with a blues feel and changed it. What were the changes?

I once heard that Judas Priest distilled metal. What did they remove?