NationStates Jolt Archive

I finally figured it out... The thing that has always bothered me but I could never, until now, figure out exactly what it was. It finally dawned on me this weekend.

About two thirds of the way through Return of the Jedi the Rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace and begins the assault on Death Star II. Meanwhile, an Imperial blockade of Star Destroyers arrives to block their escape. (How a single large clump of ships prevents a hyperspace capable fleet from leaving in a 3 dimensional space I'll never understand, but that's not the issue here.)

The battle rages on and ultimately the Emperor is defeated and the Rebels win. Later, they incorporate the New Republic and, according to the canon novels (Heir to the Empire) the Imperial fleet retreats to the outer rim to regroup.

Here's the problem:

Wouldn't you think in a galactic civil war, especially one in which one side has been known to commit genocide, that there would be mass defections from the Empire to the Rebels? Why wouldn't the Rebel fleet have been composed, not only of converted Mon Calamari cruisers and frigates, but also of turncoat Star Destroyers and personnel? The destruction of Alderaan and the subsequent Rebel victory at Yavin 4 should have triggered a surge of recruits to the rebel cause, especially Imperial military. Where were these forces at Endor?

And why didn't the Rebelss eem to have any formerly Imperial assets in the later stories? I mean, one could argue that once the Death Star II was destroyed that the remaining Imperial forces may have surrendered, but the continuing story in the Zahn novels implies that at most that would only have been the fleet present at the Battle of Endor.

Furthermore, once the New Republic was constituted, they appear to have continued using Rebel equipment exclusively. This makes no sense to me. The New Republic should have had, at its disposal, a complete star navy with all classes of ships, fighters, support vessels, etc. Why wouldn't they have taken the Star Destroyers, painted them up red and white, and employed them as the Republic military? After all, there was still fighting to be done. Loyalist worlds, insurgents, Thrawn's forces, etc. still represented a security threat. Imagine the effectiveness of Republic Star Destroyers with squadrons of X-Wings supported by TIE fighters as scouts?

I have thought long and hard about your post and can only reach the following conclusion:

Meh!

a. It was more like a colonial revolt, the Redcoats didn't defect, did they?
b. thinking on that, but it wasn't shown in the movie, so...

i havent spent 10 minutes thinking about return of the jedi since i saw it on opening day 25 years ago.

About two thirds of the way through Return of the Jedi the Rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace and begins the assault on Death Star II. Meanwhile, an Imperial blockade of Star Destroyers arrives to block their escape. (How a single large clump of ships prevents a hyperspace capable fleet from leaving in a 3 dimensional space I'll never understand, but that's not the issue here.)

Interdictor-class cruisers. Seesh, n00b. ;)


Why wouldn't the Rebel fleet have been composed, not only of converted Mon Calamari cruisers and frigates, but also of turncoat Star Destroyers and personnel?

Because people woulnd't understand who the baddies are!


And why didn't the Rebelss eem to have any formerly Imperial assets in the later stories? I mean, one could argue that once the Death Star II was destroyed that the remaining Imperial forces may have surrendered, but the continuing story in the Zahn novels implies that at most that would only have been the fleet present at the Battle of Endor.

In some comics they have.



Anyway, you're right. Meh.

This is the result of Battlestar Galactica withdrawal. I admit it.

But seriously... I mean, GAH!

Imagine how much cooler and more believable it would have been if Ackbar's flagship had been an Imperial class Star Destroyer! Rebel TIEs backing up the attack force and running interference for the Death Star run... Epic! Just set the IFF on those puppies and you're good to go!

IIRC TIE fighters have no FTL drives, and would thus make poor scouts. If one looks at the prequel movies, however, it's likely that Imperial Stormtroopers are derived from Galactic Republic clone troopers, and thus they are more docile than normal humans, more innovative than droids, and personally subservient to the will of the Emperor.

[/nerdgassing]

Star Wars - the late nineties re-releases, that is - are what originally introduced me to science fiction. Despite Lucas' more recent blatant incompetence, they still hold a special place in my heart. You don't really get space opera like that much these days (probably because it's expensive to produce); about the only one I can think of is The Fifth Element.

Here's the problem:

Wouldn't you think in a galactic civil war, especially one in which one side has been known to commit genocide, that there would be mass defections from the Empire to the Rebels? Why wouldn't the Rebel fleet have been composed, not only of converted Mon Calamari cruisers and frigates, but also of turncoat Star Destroyers and personnel? The destruction of Alderaan and the subsequent Rebel victory at Yavin 4 should have triggered a surge of recruits to the rebel cause, especially Imperial military. Where were these forces at Endor?

And why didn't the Rebelss eem to have any formerly Imperial assets in the later stories? I mean, one could argue that once the Death Star II was destroyed that the remaining Imperial forces may have surrendered, but the continuing story in the Zahn novels implies that at most that would only have been the fleet present at the Battle of Endor.

Furthermore, once the New Republic was constituted, they appear to have continued using Rebel equipment exclusively. This makes no sense to me. The New Republic should have had, at its disposal, a complete star navy with all classes of ships, fighters, support vessels, etc. Why wouldn't they have taken the Star Destroyers, painted them up red and white, and employed them as the Republic military? After all, there was still fighting to be done. Loyalist worlds, insurgents, Thrawn's forces, etc. still represented a security threat. Imagine the effectiveness of Republic Star Destroyers with squadrons of X-Wings supported by TIE fighters as scouts?

"If you only knew the power of the Dark Side!"

Interdictor-class cruisers. Seesh, n00b. ;)


Weren't those only in the games TIE Fighter and Rebellion? I don't remember...


Because people woulnd't understand who the baddies are!


IFF and sportin' a coat of rebel red and white and you're in there!


In some comics they have.


Yah but usually comics are non-canon. (Which is a shame 'cause there are good stories in those...)


Anyway, you're right. Meh.

Yeah I know meh... but it's raining, I'm tired, and I'm in danger of being caught up in a serious debate thread here so I had to blow the escape hatch ;)

Just set the IFF on those puppies and you're good to go!

Yay.
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1959/see.html

Weren't those only in the games TIE Fighter and Rebellion? I don't remember...
Righty-ho. And also in the Zahn novels.
Btw the SSD has tractor beams (see final chase in SW5)... maybe they also have gravity well projectors.



IFF and sportin' a coat of rebel red and white and you're in there!

People in the movie theatre, not people at Endor.


Yah but usually comics are non-canon. (Which is a shame 'cause there are good stories in those...)

Yah. Some.


Yeah I know meh... but it's raining, I'm tired, and I'm in danger of being caught up in a serious debate thread here so I had to blow the escape hatch ;)
:D

because imperial ships are built out of evil, and thus disintegrate when used for good. duh.

One and only one thing comes to mind and so far tops my list every time. Ewoks! We should force them to remake it removing these vile creatures.

In World War II, how many German soldiers defected to the French resistance?

because imperial ships are built out of evil, and thus disintegrate when used for good. duh.

That reminds me of the end of the movie Time Bandits...

"Mum! Dad! Don't touch it!"

*BOOM*

In World War II, how many German soldiers defected to the French resistance?

Dunno... but there was a 5th Column, and the genocide being committed by the Nazis wasn't widely known.

...blowing up a core world like Alderaan would be damn hard to hide ;)

I have thought long and hard about your post and can only reach the following conclusion:

Meh!
This.
i havent spent 10 minutes thinking about return of the jedi since i saw it on opening day 25 years ago.

You were alive!?

One and only one thing comes to mind and so far tops my list every time. Ewoks! We should force them to remake it removing these vile creatures.

The original version called for wookies instead. *nod*

Wouldn't you think in a galactic civil war, especially one in which one side has been known to commit genocide, that there would be mass defections from the Empire to the Rebels?depends on your sources.

some books, like X-Wing series, do have former Imperial soldiers in the rebel Fleet. Tycho Chelu (a very breif appearance in RotJ) is an Alderaan survivor who defected from the imperial forces to the Rebel Alliance.

Going stricktly by the Movies, Biggs and Wedge are Imperial Academy Grads (Luke Mentions applying for the academy and supposidly, there is a cut scene where Biggs leaves for the Imperial Academy and is saying goodby to Luke.)

another factor is that the Clones (stormtroopers) are programmed to 'obey'.

Why wouldn't the Rebel fleet have been composed, not only of converted Mon Calamari cruisers and frigates, but also of turncoat Star Destroyers and personnel? they may be. but after a few, perhaps the Imperial Secret Service (there would be one) would find some way to track any ships that start going missing?

However, again, going by the books, there are.
The destruction of Alderaan and the subsequent Rebel victory at Yavin 4 should have triggered a surge of recruits to the rebel cause, especially Imperial military. Where were these forces at Endor? again, depends on your sources.

Books show hints of the Imperial Propoganda machine at work. Alderaan was blamed on the Rebel Forces (Read the X-Wing Series.) and the DS II was an "Imperial Mining Facility" that was taken over by the Rebels and converted into a planet destroyer. the Emperor gave his life to destroy the Rebel Weapon.

Movies alot can be going on off screen that we don't know about.

And why didn't the Rebelss seem to have any formerly Imperial assets in the later stories? I mean, one could argue that once the Death Star II was destroyed that the remaining Imperial forces may have surrendered, but the continuing story in the Zahn novels implies that at most that would only have been the fleet present at the Battle of Endor.
consider the 'director's wank job'. where they show people celebrating the Emperor's death even on his 'throne world'. if he couldn't hold the citizen's hearts on the planet located as his center of power... his entire forces could've been spread so thin that yes, it was one or a few fleets at endor and not his 'entire forces'.

Furthermore, once the New Republic was constituted, they appear to have continued using Rebel equipment exclusively. This makes no sense to me. The New Republic should have had, at its disposal, a complete star navy with all classes of ships, fighters, support vessels, etc. Why wouldn't they have taken the Star Destroyers, painted them up red and white, and employed them as the Republic military? After all, there was still fighting to be done. Loyalist worlds, insurgents, Thrawn's forces, etc. still represented a security threat. Imagine the effectiveness of Republic Star Destroyers with squadrons of X-Wings supported by TIE fighters as scouts?
Several points. using Star Destroyers may work against the New Republic's attempts to bolster confidence. Star Destroyers were a symbol of the Empire. as soon as it was possible, they would've scrapped the Star Destroyers and replaced them with designs to symbolize the new Government.

as for Tie/X-Wing mix. again, read the X-Wing series. some of the pilots in Wraith Squadron were working on tactics to employ the two types.

Dunno... but there was a 5th Column, and the genocide being committed by the Nazis wasn't widely known.

...blowing up a core world like Alderaan would be damn hard to hide ;)

it's called Propaganda.

Weren't those only in the games TIE Fighter and Rebellion? I don't remember...

They were in the Books also.

add to the fact that you gather that many captial ships and have them turn on their tractor generators, it could possibly simulate a small gravitational body. which would make jumping to lightspeed (not hyperspace) difficult to impossible (remember Han's speech when they were fleeing Tatoonie?)

Escaping the influence of the Empire and joining the resistance movement? That's easy.

Bringing a Star Destroyer with you? That's more complicated. It depends on how many of those forty-thousand on board won't shoot you when you try.

In the Core and Expanded Universes, a lot of people did defect from the Empire to the Rebellion. Among these:

Jan Dodonna (Rebel CO of Yavin IV base in Ep. IV): Imperial General. Retired and awarded a moon (I kid you not) for services by the Emperor. Defected approx. 12 months later.

Crix Madine (CO of Echo Base in Ep. V): Imperial General. Defected whilst on mission. Served the Rebel Alliance with distinction.

The list (at least in the EU) goes on quite a bit. An explicit mention (post-Endor) of the New Republic owning and operating at least two Star Destroyers is also worth a mention. Those they captured at Endor, but also at least one other defected - the Freedom, under Captain Sair Yonka, defected approx. 4 years post-Endor.

Given that an ISD II has 37,000 crewmen, getting one of those to defect is not easy. Especially given Imperial Intelligence's penchant for planting agents aboard its own ships.

I don't know or care.

A fair number of the Rebel ships are Imperial turncoats. The Nebulon-B Frigates (the type you see the Falcon attached to at the end of Empire) is an Imperial light capital ship - one they use for patrol and scouting duties. Many of those ships defected.

However, the big stuff - Victory, Imperial and Super class Star Destroyers and Strike class Cruisers - carried such large crews that mutinies and attempts to defect would be almost certain to fail, as any conspiracy to do so would be discovered or betrayed long before it could get a majority of the crew onside.

I finally figured it out... The thing that has always bothered me but I could never, until now, figure out exactly what it was. It finally dawned on me this weekend.....


Evasive maneuvers, this posts a TRAP!

That's what's always bugged you?

Search your feelings.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/4/48/Ewoks.jpg

That's what's always bugged you?

Search your feelings.


Well I just felt going on an anti-Ewok tirade would be redundant ;)

lol

There was a stormtrooper who killed him CO (who was about to shoot Luke Skywalker, even) and started feeding information to the rebels in the EU.

For your first point: The rebel fleet couldn't just escape back into hyperspace at that point because they were too close into Endor's gravity well, the imperial fleet trapped them there, meaning that the rebels only escape route was through the imperial fleet.

For your second point: Fair enough, but what you have to remember is that at Endor, the rebellion was still rather small. The fleet the rebels used at Endor was everything they had, and seeing as a ISD takes 47,000 personal to crew, while a Mon Calamari cruiser only takes around 5,200, and are nearly as good.

And your third point: Answer: They did, but again, see that is takes more than eight times as many men to crew a ISD as a mol cal cruiser.

NeoB! You spoiled RoJ for me. :(
I will go apeshit on your Dark Knights!!

I finally(....) scouts?

If you start going out again, chances are sooner or later you'll get lucky.

NeoB! You spoiled RoJ for me. :(
I will go apeshit on your Dark Knights!!

Bring it on :p

Rolling squid;14673117']For your first point: The rebel fleet couldn't just escape back into hyperspace at that point because they were too close into Endor's gravity well, the imperial fleet trapped them there, meaning that the rebels only escape route was through the imperial fleet.


I dunno even if hyperspace wasn't an option I could see the ships darting toward the planet, going low orbit and doing a slingshot away. I realize I'm way overanalyzing here, but the Imperial ships were all prettymuch coming from one direction. Not exactly a mousetrap.

Rolling squid;14673117']
For your second point: Fair enough, but what you have to remember is that at Endor, the rebellion was still rather small. The fleet the rebels used at Endor was everything they had, and seeing as a ISD takes 47,000 personal to crew, while a Mon Calamari cruiser only takes around 5,200, and are nearly as good.

And your third point: Answer: They did, but again, see that is takes more than eight times as many men to crew a ISD as a mol cal cruiser.

That makes sense, but I still think the weakness in the story is they definitely portrayed it as white hats vs. black hats and really lost an opportunity for some good drama. I mean honestly, wouldn't we remove some of the Ewok filler in favor of a scene or two of some Imperial forces defecting over?

If you start going out again, chances are sooner or later you'll get lucky.

The beauty of being married to a geek chick is I can get lucky AND be a nerd. :D

it's called Propaganda.

See all of your points make sense, and would have made the movie better had they at least spent a few minutes on stuff like that rather than mourning over dead Ewoks and such.

Bring it on :p

You do know what you proposed made sense. Pity Lucas is such an arse. It would've made the movies, the ones from the 70s and 80s and the ones from '00 to '05 waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better.

Dude, the minute you start to seriously analyize Star Wars and think even remotely deep about it, the whole series goes to shit :D

Dude, the minute you start to seriously analyize Star Wars and think even remotely deep about it, the whole series goes to shit :D

Yeah. It's why I like the Warhammer 40,000 Series so much more. Despite the fact that there haven't been any movies (Thank God)

Yeah. It's why I like the Warhammer 40,000 Series so much more. Despite the fact that there haven't been any movies (Thank God)

Do you know how awful a 40k movie would probably be? Itd be, like, awful on awful steriods. Itd redefine 'awful'.

Games Workshop can barely make codexes consistant.

And theyd probably get Uwe to direct it.

Do you know how awful a 40k movie would probably be? Itd be, like, awful on awful steriods. Itd redefine 'awful'.


And it'd probably be made by Uwe Boll.


Games Workshop can barely make codexes consistant.
:D

EDIT: Curse your ninja editing! You didn't have my comment when I quoted it! But I suppose great minds think alike.:p

And it'd probably be made by Uwe Boll.


:D

EDIT: Curse your ninja editing! You didn't have my comment when I quoted it! But I suppose great minds think alike.:p

:D:D:D:D


<---- is the winner.

Bring it on :p
I dunno even if hyperspace wasn't an option I could see the ships darting toward the planet, going low orbit and doing a slingshot away. I realize I'm way overanalyzing here, but the Imperial ships were all prettymuch coming from one direction. Not exactly a mousetrap.


That was probably the original plan until they realized that the Death Star was operational and could have picked them off one at a time if they tried to flee. At that point their only real option was to get as close to the imperial fleet as possible and hope to either break through it or survive long enough that the ground forces would disable the shield generator and allow them to destroy the shield generator.

You do know what you proposed made sense. Pity Lucas is such an arse. It would've made the movies, the ones from the 70s and 80s and the ones from '00 to '05 waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better.

Amen to that.

Yeah. It's why I like the Warhammer 40,000 Series so much more. Despite the fact that there haven't been any movies (Thank God)

Don't hold your breath :rolleyes:

Do you know how awful a 40k movie would probably be? Itd be, like, awful on awful steriods. Itd redefine 'awful'.

Games Workshop can barely make codexes consistant.

And theyd probably get Uwe to direct it.

And it'd probably be made by Uwe Boll.


You guys should be beaten to death with a railroad tie for suggesting such a thing.

Don't hold your breath :rolleyes:

Please, let me cling desperately to hope for a few more years.

You guys should be beaten to death with a railroad tie for suggesting such a thing.
If it wasn't so likely, I'd agree with you. But you can't stop the truth, man!:p:p

My first inclination would be to side with the chaps that can blow a planet up.

Secondly, defecting would mean hanging out with the rebels who are, let's face it, a bit naff.

The extremely long dieing scenes always turned me off RoJ.

Yoda especially, that little bastard took more time to die than he appeared in the original trilogy altogether. "...um...ff...fhh..." They dragged out his dialogue for a good ten minutes.

Then there was Darth, he took forever. When I first watched it, it was more about the moment, seeing the guy's face for the first time. Second time watching, all I saw was an old fat guy (which is strange considering he's so buff) in a suit taking his sweet time dieing.

My first inclination would be to side with the chaps that can blow a planet up.

Secondly, defecting would mean hanging out with the rebels who are, let's face it, a bit naff.

Naff?:confused:

This is the result of Battlestar Galactica withdrawal. I admit it.

But seriously... I mean, GAH!

Imagine how much cooler and more believable it would have been if Ackbar's flagship had been an Imperial class Star Destroyer! Rebel TIEs backing up the attack force and running interference for the Death Star run... Epic! Just set the IFF on those puppies and you're good to go!

TIE fighters suck. No shields, no missiles, and no hyperdrive make TIE fighters < X-Wings. Hell, in the right hands, a Y-Wing, lumbering pig as it is, > TIE fighters.

Righty-ho. And also in the Zahn novels.
Btw the SSD has tractor beams (see final chase in SW5)... maybe they also have gravity well projectors.

IIRC, Interdictor class ships also appeared in Michael Stackpole's X-Wing series books. And no, Executor class Super Star Destroyers don't have gravity well projectors (according to Wookieepedia).

Dunno... but there was a 5th Column, and the genocide being committed by the Nazis wasn't widely known.

...blowing up a core world like Alderaan would be damn hard to hide ;)
"Space is really really big...."

This.


You were alive!?
Hee. I was alive to see the FIRST movie, Star Wars, in the first release. And when it ran the next summer. BEFORE they started calling it "A New Hope."

This.


You were alive!?
yes yes i was.

i was .....27 years old (assuming that it opened after my birthday)

yes yes i was.

i was .....27 years old (assuming that it opened after my birthday)
I was ten or eleven.

In the books they use all types of Imperial ships. They don't use TIE fighters because the rebels value their pilots more.

I was ten or eleven.
you probably enjoyed it more than i did then.

The original version called for wookies instead. *nod*

I believe it also called for the planet to be Kashyyyk, instead of Endor.

you probably enjoyed it more than i did then.
LOL yes... my FIRST PG MOVIE!

Hee, and I still have ALL the figures and space craft and stuff.

depends on your sources.

some books, like X-Wing series, do have former Imperial soldiers in the rebel Fleet. Tycho Chelu (a very breif appearance in RotJ) is an Alderaan survivor who defected from the imperial forces to the Rebel Alliance.

Going stricktly by the Movies, Biggs and Wedge are Imperial Academy Grads (Luke Mentions applying for the academy and supposidly, there is a cut scene where Biggs leaves for the Imperial Academy and is saying goodby to Luke.)

another factor is that the Clones (stormtroopers) are programmed to 'obey'.

they may be. but after a few, perhaps the Imperial Secret Service (there would be one) would find some way to track any ships that start going missing?

However, again, going by the books, there are.
again, depends on your sources.

Books show hints of the Imperial Propoganda machine at work. Alderaan was blamed on the Rebel Forces (Read the X-Wing Series.) and the DS II was an "Imperial Mining Facility" that was taken over by the Rebels and converted into a planet destroyer. the Emperor gave his life to destroy the Rebel Weapon.

Movies alot can be going on off screen that we don't know about.


consider the 'director's wank job'. where they show people celebrating the Emperor's death even on his 'throne world'. if he couldn't hold the citizen's hearts on the planet located as his center of power... his entire forces could've been spread so thin that yes, it was one or a few fleets at endor and not his 'entire forces'.


Several points. using Star Destroyers may work against the New Republic's attempts to bolster confidence. Star Destroyers were a symbol of the Empire. as soon as it was possible, they would've scrapped the Star Destroyers and replaced them with designs to symbolize the new Government.

as for Tie/X-Wing mix. again, read the X-Wing series. some of the pilots in Wraith Squadron were working on tactics to employ the two types.

General Madine was also an Imperial defector. Han Solo was kicked out of the Imperial Academy for stopping an officer from beating Chewbacca.

The original version called for wookies instead. *nod*

It's true, oversized bears with explosive crossbows make for much better storytelling than midget koalas with stone spears.

I agree about "it's a trap", unless those star destroyers had some kind of forcefield of their own that made light-speeding out of there impossible.

As for the rest of the OP... *snickers audibly* You read the novels *laughs uproariously*

It's true, oversized bears with explosive crossbows make for much better storytelling than midget koalas with stone spears.

Stupid fucking Ewoks.

The first Staw Wars movie was pretty lame, but okay. The second, a little better. The third was shit - and, unfortunately - apparently the template for continued noncing around for another quarter of a century.

If I ever meet an Ewok, I'm gonna choke it.

Stupid fucking Ewoks.

The first Staw Wars movie was pretty lame, but okay. The second, a little better. The third was shit - and, unfortunately - apparently the template for continued noncing around for another quarter of a century.

If I ever meet an Ewok, I'm gonna choke it.

Choke an Ewok... Is that what they're calling it now?:p

Choke an Ewok... Is that what they're calling it now?:p

No, they call that Force Choking Vader.

Ugh... don't even put the image of goopy-matted-furred Ewoks in my head, you sicko.

Hmm, let me take a crack at this.

I finally figured it out... The thing that has always bothered me but I could never, until now, figure out exactly what it was. It finally dawned on me this weekend.

What, something other than the Ewoks? At least you win points for originality.;)

About two thirds of the way through Return of the Jedi the Rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace and begins the assault on Death Star II. Meanwhile, an Imperial blockade of Star Destroyers arrives to block their escape. (How a single large clump of ships prevents a hyperspace capable fleet from leaving in a 3 dimensional space I'll never understand, but that's not the issue here.)

Well, I've heard speculation (probably based on the novel) that there were two groups of ships that emerged on either side of the Rebel fleet. Then there's Endor and the Death Star. Finally, there's the fact that both Endor and the Death Star presumably create a significant gravity well, which impedes the use of hyperdrives (as well as what look suspiciously like an interdictor destroyer in at least one shot), which means that as long as the Imperial fleet could engage the Rebels and keep them from moving into open space, they couldn't flee by hyperdrive.

The battle rages on and ultimately the Emperor is defeated and the Rebels win. Later, they incorporate the New Republic and, according to the canon novels (Heir to the Empire) the Imperial fleet retreats to the outer rim to regroup.

Here's the problem:

Wouldn't you think in a galactic civil war, especially one in which one side has been known to commit genocide, that there would be mass defections from the Empire to the Rebels?

Because Palpatine was a very skilled propogandist? He was made Emperor by a cheering Senate, and the novelizations of the films portray him as highly popular, who is seen by the Galactic populace as a benevolent old man who is unaware of or unable to stop the corruption around him?

Why wouldn't the Rebel fleet have been composed, not only of converted Mon Calamari cruisers and frigates, but also of turncoat Star Destroyers and personnel?

First of all, not every ship was Mon Calimari. The Nebulon B Frigate, for example (aka, the medical firgate, though there were actually quite a few of the class at Endor, as you can see in some scenes of the battle). There were also Corillean designs, especially the little blockade runners. And the novelization details quite a variety of vessels at Endor.

Secondly, not evey Rebelious world nessissarly contributed a lot of ships. I believe Alderan is described in the Episode 4 novel as a source of munitions, though my memory is a bit fuzzy. Similarily, the Bothans were very helpful in the form of their spy network. The Calimari seem to have speciallized in star ship production, so that's what they contributed.

And actually, in the EU, there are Imperial defectors, even pre-Endor. Hell, Han Solo used to be in the Imperial fleet I believe (briefly, before his time as an outlaw). The problem is, defecting with something the size of a destroyer could be quite dificult. Not only would you have to have a sizeable portion of the crew who wanted to defect just to crew the damn thing (or rig it up like the Katana fleet), you'd have to deal with the highly loyal stormtrooper force (numbering in the thousands) aboard a typical destroyer. Also, didn't Palpatine install systems to remotely destroyer or sabotauge a destroyer as related in the Thrawn Trilogy?

After Endor, the reason the Rebels were able to take control is in large part because the Empire fragmented upon the Emperor's death, but a lot of the Empire's officers didn't join the Rebels, instead trying to form there own empires as war lords.

The destruction of Alderaan and the subsequent Rebel victory at Yavin 4 should have triggered a surge of recruits to the rebel cause, especially Imperial military. Where were these forces at Endor?

That is odd, but maybe Palpatine turned Tarkin into the fall guy, and claimed he had acted without authorization?

Or perhaps, in a galactic civilization, one world is coniserded (by some at least) to be acceptable collateral damage? Remember that those who joined the Imperial fleet would often have been those who agreed with Palpatine's policies and were loyal to him (more so for those who rose high enough to be command cruisers they could defect with).

And why didn't the Rebelss eem to have any formerly Imperial assets in the later stories? I mean, one could argue that once the Death Star II was destroyed that the remaining Imperial forces may have surrendered, but the continuing story in the Zahn novels implies that at most that would only have been the fleet present at the Battle of Endor.

No, the fleet at Endor didn't just surrender. At least some of it retreated under a probably illegal order. Which is probably a reason why they had so few Imperial ships. Maybe not that many were taken intact.

Also, there are political reasons. Star Destroyers would be associated with the Emperor's reign of terror.

Finally, maybe the Rebel's felt there designs were better. Post-Endor, they would have gained access to lots of shipyards, so couldn't they just produce there own designs rather than scavenging Imperial ships?

That said, I believe some stories do have refferences to the Rebels using Star Destroyers, though I'm not positive.

Furthermore, once the New Republic was constituted, they appear to have continued using Rebel equipment exclusively. This makes no sense to me. The New Republic should have had, at its disposal, a complete star navy with all classes of ships, fighters, support vessels, etc. Why wouldn't they have taken the Star Destroyers, painted them up red and white, and employed them as the Republic military? After all, there was still fighting to be done. Loyalist worlds, insurgents, Thrawn's forces, etc. still represented a security threat. Imagine the effectiveness of Republic Star Destroyers with squadrons of X-Wings supported by TIE fighters as scouts?

The Rebel star fighter forces did just fine against the Empire as they were. As for capital units, why not keep using the units that you're trained and familiar with, that have been beating the Empire just fine, and that lack the political assossiations of the Empire's designs?

a. It was more like a colonial revolt, the Redcoats didn't defect, did they?
b. thinking on that, but it wasn't shown in the movie, so...

This mostly.

Sure there were imperial defectors... but I'd imagine that very seldom an entire Star Destroyer would defect at once... thats over thrity-thousand people.

Whats more is it seems like the Empire would have an easier time tracking down imperial defectors cruising the galaxy in one of the largest starships ever made. Also, there where stolen ships, Nebulon B frigates, for example, were initially an Imperial design, but they were frequently hijacked bu rebel insurgents.

This mostly.

Sure there were imperial defectors... but I'd imagine that very seldom an entire Star Destroyer would defect at once... thats over thrity-thousand people.

Whats more is it seems like the Empire would have an easier time tracking down imperial defectors cruising the galaxy in one of the largest starships ever made. Also, there where stolen ships, Nebulon B frigates, for example, were initially an Imperial design, but they were frequently hijacked bu rebel insurgents.

Nitpick, but Star Destroyers were not one of the largest designs ever made. There were t least 25,000 of them in the Imperial fleet, plus you have multiple classes of cruisers and "Super Star Destroyers" or Star Dreadnoughts that were larger. There were even Mon Calimari ships larger than ISDs.

Star Destroyers look impressive, but on the scale used in Star War's galactic civilization, they are mere destroyer-level ships at worst, cruisers at best.

Nitpick, but Star Destroyers were not one of the largest designs ever made. There were t least 25,000 of them in the Imperial fleet, plus you have multiple classes of cruisers and "Super Star Destroyers" or Star Dreadnoughts that were larger. There were even Mon Calimari ships larger than ISDs.

Star Destroyers look impressive, but on the scale used in Star War's galactic civilization, they are mere destroyer-level ships at worst, cruisers at best.
I'm going to call you on that, since I've actually, y'know, read the Zahn books that pretty much started the whole "let's write lots of Star Wars novels moving the series forward." And when I was a young lad, TIE Fighter was one of the most exciting things I got to play on my computer.

And I remember quite clearly that the Katana fleet was composed of things called dreadnoughts which were a good bit smaller and weaker than Victory Star Destroyers, which were in turn a fraction the size and power of Imperial Star Destroyers, and yet those dreadnoughts mattered an awful lot. You also had strike cruisers, which were less potent than those dreadnoughts, but played a support role in Thrawn's fleet.

So.... no. Let's apply a little common sense here. "Star Destroyer" refers to something huge and scary, a super (or in the case of Vader's ship, ultra mega of doom etc) battleship.

Going back to the original topic at hand... I think whatever happened after RoJ is not a reflection on the movie itself, really, and it's seems really unlikely that many whole Star Destroyers would defect. Entire warships defecting is a rare thing in history - it takes a lot of disloyal people together with at least some of them willing to push the issue.

Why doesn't Star Wars have an Internet?

Why doesn't Star Wars have an Internet?

I think the Holonet counts, although I think it's restricted to Military use.

I'm going to call you on that, since I've actually, y'know, read the Zahn books that pretty much started the whole "let's write lots of Star Wars novels moving the series forward." And when I was a young lad, TIE Fighter was one of the most exciting things I got to play on my computer.

And I have also read the Zahn books, and other EU books (which officially mean nothing if they contradict the films, incidently).

And I remember quite clearly that the Katana fleet was composed of things called dreadnoughts

A name means nothing. The term dreadnought as a specific meaning in military nomenclature.

Also, this was during the days of the rather demilitarized Old Republic. Back then, the Katana Dreadnoughts might have actually been dreadnoughts. However, by the time of Return of the Jedi, the Empire had a vast fleet of more powerful ships. So, to a lesser extent, did the Mon Calimari. The real Dreadnoughts are ships like the Executor.

Perhaps the Katana Dreadnoughts were top battleships in their times. And during WW1, Battleships were the top warships. 30 years later, carriers had gone a long way towards making them useless.

which were a good bit smaller and weaker than Victory Star Destroyers, which were in turn a fraction the size and power of Imperial Star Destroyers, and yet those dreadnoughts mattered an awful lot.

The best explanation I've heard for that is that the two sides were closely matched in strength, and that these were ships not currently tied up with defensive duties that could help shift the balance of power (easy to crew, to). Other explanations might be possible as well, but it was not due to them being exceptionally powerful warships.

You also had strike cruisers, which were less potent than those dreadnoughts, but played a support role in Thrawn's fleet.

Military nomenclature is all over the place in Star Wars. For example, the Executor class is referred to in the EU as a type of "Star Dreadnought," and the Mon Calimari ships (star destroyer size), are called cruisers. The novelization of RotJ even refers to the Rebel "Headquaters Frigate."

So.... no. Let's apply a little common sense here. "Star Destroyer" refers to something huge and scary, a super (or in the case of Vader's ship, ultra mega of doom etc) battleship.

No, it isn't. Star Destroyers are mass-produced, multipurpose ships (25,000 according to another EU book, one written by Zahn too if I recall correctly). Sounds like a cruiser to me.

I think the Holonet counts, although I think it's restricted to Military use.

Actually, that might just be under the Empire. Isn't there a reference in the Revenge of the Sith novel to Holonet news broadcasts?

Star Wars - the late nineties re-releases, that is - are what originally introduced me to science fiction. Despite Lucas' more recent blatant incompetence, they still hold a special place in my heart. You don't really get space opera like that much these days (probably because it's expensive to produce); about the only one I can think of is The Fifth Element.

...which is a better film anyways.

*ducks*

...which is a better film anyways.

*ducks*

^This, however the Star Wars universe has to be one of the coolest thing ever. To bad it was screwed up IMHO by Lucas.

I finally figured it out... The thing that has always bothered me but I could never, until now, figure out exactly what it was. It finally dawned on me this weekend.

About two thirds of the way through Return of the Jedi the Rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace and begins the assault on Death Star II. Meanwhile, an Imperial blockade of Star Destroyers arrives to block their escape. (How a single large clump of ships prevents a hyperspace capable fleet from leaving in a 3 dimensional space I'll never understand, but that's not the issue here.)

The battle rages on and ultimately the Emperor is defeated and the Rebels win. Later, they incorporate the New Republic and, according to the canon novels (Heir to the Empire) the Imperial fleet retreats to the outer rim to regroup.

Here's the problem:

Wouldn't you think in a galactic civil war, especially one in which one side has been known to commit genocide, that there would be mass defections from the Empire to the Rebels? Why wouldn't the Rebel fleet have been composed, not only of converted Mon Calamari cruisers and frigates, but also of turncoat Star Destroyers and personnel? The destruction of Alderaan and the subsequent Rebel victory at Yavin 4 should have triggered a surge of recruits to the rebel cause, especially Imperial military. Where were these forces at Endor?

And why didn't the Rebelss eem to have any formerly Imperial assets in the later stories? I mean, one could argue that once the Death Star II was destroyed that the remaining Imperial forces may have surrendered, but the continuing story in the Zahn novels implies that at most that would only have been the fleet present at the Battle of Endor.

Furthermore, once the New Republic was constituted, they appear to have continued using Rebel equipment exclusively. This makes no sense to me. The New Republic should have had, at its disposal, a complete star navy with all classes of ships, fighters, support vessels, etc. Why wouldn't they have taken the Star Destroyers, painted them up red and white, and employed them as the Republic military? After all, there was still fighting to be done. Loyalist worlds, insurgents, Thrawn's forces, etc. still represented a security threat. Imagine the effectiveness of Republic Star Destroyers with squadrons of X-Wings supported by TIE fighters as scouts?

I can't believe I'm actually getting into this discussion, but no, I wouldn't expect Imperial Troops to defect.
Civilisations on earth have committed genocide many times over, and there has never been a mass-defection of people away from them. They're the winners, after all.

How many US troops defected when Native American tribes were eradicated? How many Germans defected when Jews were killed? How many Russians defected when Stalin killed of half of Ukraine? And all that is just recent history...

People don't work like that.
It's very easy for you to sit in front of your telly and go "But they're the bad guys! The baddies!! Run away from them and become good guys, for god's sake!".

No, it isn't. Star Destroyers are mass-produced, multipurpose ships (25,000 according to another EU book, one written by Zahn too if I recall correctly). Sounds like a cruiser to me.

Not correct. The Star Wars Encyclopedia lists the number of Star Destroyers at about 25,000... between the different makes and models... perhaps there are still a lot of older model SD's running around with patrol duty? You mentioned that because Vader's one singular command ship was bigger, that Imperator-class SD's must not actually be that big... though you don't seem aware that only three of them were at the time constructed... also, I didn' say ISDs were the biggest ship in the SW Universe, but that they were one of the largest, which is not only correct, but maintained in every canon, and non-canon source -'m aware of... and if you want to disclude non-canon sources, I'm even more correct, as only the Executor, and Death Stars were larger than a mkI ISD.

Also, Ewoks suck, and don't very accurately display the power relation of the Vietnam War, contrary to George Lucas' attempt at thought.

I finally figured it out... The thing that has always bothered me but I could never, until now, figure out exactly what it was. ...

I don't claim to know you, let alone understand you, Neo Bretonnia, but I'm truly surprised that you seem to have (mis-)spent so much of your life pondering this. There are all kinds of possible reasons why defections didn't take place, but Lucas doesn't help us with that.

At various times I've seen a good deal of what George Lucas had to say about the "world" of Star Wars, including stuff on the enhanced DVDs. It seems obvious to me that he didn't provide, and didn't intend to provide, enough of the background of that "world" to make this kind of speculation possible or fruitful. There's surprisingly little depth there. As for the canon novels, it also seems clear that Lucas was happy to ignore them (and any other considerations) for the sake of making good films according to his criteria for film goodness. E.g., look at his explanations for deleted scenes: he was quite ruthless about changing or dropping anything that slowed the films down or made them too thought-provoking.

Was he right to do this? Who knows? But I suspect if we took this to him, he might say he never gave it a moment's thought. Or he might just say "meh".

Having said that, I suppose it's just possible that if somebody sat down and listened carefully to all the films again with your point in mind, we might hear passing dialogue about (though not see) evidence of such defections as you suggest. But then again, maybe Vader or his master had some kind of "Dark Side Radar"™ that warned them of imminent defections, and they usually got to the would-be defector and killed him before he could succeed. ;)

Not correct. The Star Wars Encyclopedia lists the number of Star Destroyers at about 25,000... between the different makes and models... perhaps there are still a lot of older model SD's running around with patrol duty?

Like the Victories that are more powerful than your dreadnoughts?

Also, Venators (comparable to Victories in size I think) are the main ship in the Republic fleet if the new Clone Wars cartoon is any indication.

You mentioned that because Vader's one singular command ship was bigger, that Imperator-class SD's must not actually be that big...

How much of my reply did you read?

That was far from the only argument that I gave. I pointed out that Star Destroyers fit the role of cruisers, and that there are numerous ships besides Vader's ship that are bigger (all the SSDs, Mon Cal command ships, oh, and I'm pretty sure Trade Federation Lucrehulks from the Clone Wars, plus Grievious's ship in the new cartoon. For a start.)


though you don't seem aware that only three of them were at the time constructed...

I've heard more like a dozen. But at the very least, the Executor, the Lusankya, from the larger Eclipse Class the Eclipse and Eclipse 2 (I think), and the Sovereign Class.

also, I didn' say ISDs were the biggest ship in the SW Universe, but that they were one of the largest, which is not only correct, but maintained in every canon, and non-canon source -'m aware of... and if you want to disclude non-canon sources, I'm even more correct, as only the Executor, and Death Stars were larger than a mkI ISD.

One, EU novels are canon, unless they contradict something higher up the ladder. So are comics, and even games to an extent.

And while they might be one of the largest in the sense of being larger than 95-99% of other classes, they were very common, and there are still many larger classes, and probably hundreds or thousands of larger ships during the Episodes 1-6 period. Shall I go look up a more thorough list?

Also, Ewoks suck, and don't very accurately display the power relation of the Vietnam War, contrary to George Lucas' attempt at thought.

You may think they suck, but their victory wasn't all that implausible under the circumstances. They had terrain advantage, a prepared ambush, superior numbers, support from Rebel commandos, and they still would have lost if Chewbaca hadn't taken control of or destroyed up to half of the available Imperial armored support, and by taking the walker, allowed the Rebels to trick the officer in the base into opening the bunker and sending more forces into a trap. Besides, the Imperials were grossly incompetant not to demand a valid ID before opening up the bunker.

LOL yes... my FIRST PG MOVIE!

Hee, and I still have ALL the figures and space craft and stuff.


So if you choose the right auction, that's your kids' college education sorted. :D

Why doesn't Star Wars have an Internet?

To keep the rebels from spending all their time playing NationStates and in forums like this one, thus allowing the Empire to annihilate them?

At various times I've seen a good deal of what George Lucas had to say about the "world" of Star Wars, including stuff on the enhanced DVDs. It seems obvious to me that he didn't provide, and didn't intend to provide, enough of the background of that "world" to make this kind of speculation possible or fruitful. There's surprisingly little depth there.

Nonsense. Especially if you look at the backstory in the various EU works, which, while sometimes contradictory, are generally canon as long as they don't contradict something higher up. Look at the speculation in this thread. It is often based off of actual evidence.

As for th.e canon novels, it also seems clear that Lucas was happy to ignore them (and any other considerations) for the sake of making good films according to his criteria for film goodness. E.g., look at his explanations for deleted scenes: he was quite ruthless about changing or dropping anything that slowed the films down or made them too thought-provoking.

Often with good reason. But their is a hierarchy, a structure wherein generally, its canon if nothing above it is contradicted. Also, all those things get Lucas's approval.

Having said that, I suppose it's just possible that if somebody sat down and listened carefully to all the films again with your point in mind, we might hear passing dialogue about (though not see) evidence of such defections as you suggest. But then again, maybe Vader or his master had some kind of "Dark Side Radar"™ that warned them of imminent defections, and they usually got to the would-be defector and killed him before he could succeed. ;)

You mean Force precognition?

Plus, its not like the Empire didn't have fanatically loyal troops, and intelligence forces.

You may think they suck, but their victory wasn't all that implausible under the circumstances.

Nope, still implausible. The Ewoks were certainly no stronger than the average human under the best of circumstances, and were equipped with vines, stone spears, bolos and rocks at the very best. None of which would be able to do more than annoy anyone in full plate mail, much less some person in full hard shell future armor.

Terrain advantage, element of surprise and foreknowledge of enemy disposition can account for a lot of weakness in numbers and firepower, but not when the disparity is that huge and their tactics suck that much. It would have been more plausible had they made greater use of the terrain with more log falls and pit traps, but with so much emphasis on melee, the Ewoks would have faced the same fate as the Light Brigade. A complete and total slaughter well before Chewbacca found a pair of idiots driving an AT-ST.

Nope, still implausible. The Ewoks were certainly no stronger than the average human under the best of circumstances, and were equipped with vines, stone spears, bolos and rocks at the very best. None of which would be able to do more than annoy anyone in full plate mail, much less some person in full hard shell future armor.

Terrain advantage, element of surprise and foreknowledge of enemy disposition can account for a lot of weakness in numbers and firepower, but not when the disparity is that huge and their tactics suck that much. It would have been more plausible had they made greater use of the terrain with more log falls and pit traps, but with so much emphasis on melee, the Ewoks would have faced the same fate as the Light Brigade. A complete and total slaughter well before Chewbacca found a pair of idiots driving an AT-ST.

Well, we have no idea how long that battle went on for. And its very clear that, without Rebel support, the Ewoks would have had their asses handed to them in short order.

Also, the Ewoks had very good cover in the forest, while the Empire, for all Palpatine's talk about "an entire legion," had to all appearances a few dozen to a few hundred light infantry and 4 scout walkers, and some speeder bikes to hunt them down.

Well I just felt going on an anti-Ewok tirade would be redundant ;)

Never enough hate for Ewoks. The appearance of the bloody muppets made me suddenly shift from the Rebel side to the Imperial side.

Also, the Ewoks had very good cover in the forest, while the Empire, for all Palpatine's talk about "an entire legion," had to all appearances a few dozen to a few hundred light infantry and 4 scout walkers, and some speeder bikes to hunt them down.

Ideal imperial strategy?
Very simple: retreat to the shield generator and close the doors. Vaporize the whole forest with a squadron of T/B armed with FAEs.

I love the smell of toasted Ewoks in the morning...

Never enough hate for Ewoks. The appearance of the bloody muppets made me suddenly shift from the Rebel side to the Imperial side.
It's perhaps not well-executed in the film, but the Ewoks' triumph over Stormtroopers and AT-ST's can be seen, I think, as a sort of a culmination of the entire trilogy's (confused) message; that good eventually triumphs over evil, no matter the odds or technological/psychological inferiority. Belief in doing good will see you through.

"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Unless your a Sith, then you're just a ****."

Ideal imperial strategy?
Very simple: retreat to the shield generator and close the doors. Vaporize the whole forest with a squadron of T/B armed with FAEs.

They might have been worried about taking the prisoners back into the bunker. But if they were properly searched and guarded, it shouldn't have been an issue.

Really, it all comes down to Imperial incompetance. I mean, had that one officer not opened the bunker, the whole battle might have been won by the Empire.

Of course, their's the irony that the Empire would still have been fucked, as it would have disintegrated without Palpatine. Or maybe not. If the Death Star had survived, whoever controlled it would have probably maintained control over most of the Empire.

Never enough hate for Ewoks. The appearance of the bloody muppets made me suddenly shift from the Rebel side to the Imperial side.

When I was a little girl, I so wanted to own an Ewok for a pet. Does that makes me sick?:eek2:

When I was a little girl, I so wanted to own an Ewok for a pet. Does that makes me sick?:eek2:

Well, given that they're clearly sentient, that would be slavery.

Well, given that they're clearly sentient, that would be slavery.

Then yes, I was a sick child.:(

When I was a little girl, I so wanted to own an Ewok for a pet. Does that makes me sick?:eek2:

No. Just don't move while I aim the Death Star cannon on the muppet...

;)

No. Just don't move while I aim the Death Star cannon on the muppet...

;)

Rofl! The muppet. LOL!:D

They might have been worried about taking the prisoners back into the bunker. But if they were properly searched and guarded, it shouldn't have been an issue.

When you're the Evil Empire, why should you care for the prisoners and take them back into the bunker? They can stay outside with the Ewoks and fry all together.


Really, it all comes down to Imperial incompetance. I mean, had that one officer not opened the bunker, the whole battle might have been won by the Empire.

Yes, after all the purpose of a fortification is to keep it SHUT!


Of course, their's the irony that the Empire would still have been fucked, as it would have disintegrated without Palpatine. Or maybe not. If the Death Star had survived, whoever controlled it would have probably maintained control over most of the Empire.
Thrawn and Pelleaon, yay.

When you're the Evil Empire, why should you care for the prisoners and take them back into the bunker? They can stay outside with the Ewoks and fry all together.

Except that Palpatine probably wanted them alive.

Thrawn and Pelleaon, yay.

Actually, the winner would have presumably been the highest ranking officer on the Death Star, or in the Endor fleet.

Though I could see Thrawn trying to take power when he came back. And if anyone could have taken down a death star with less than a thousand cruisers, it would be Thrawn.

Why wouldn't they have taken the Star Destroyers, painted them up red and white, and employed them as the Republic military?

Well, Star Destroyer is pretty fail design, who the hell locates bridge of military starship outside the main hull? Thats like painting red dot on the part of ship where captain is sitting so that enemy would have no aiming problems.

Olmedreca;14675701']Well, Star Destroyer is pretty fail design, who the hell locates bridge of military starship outside the main hull? Thats like painting red dot on the part of ship where captain is sitting so that enemy would have no aiming problems.

Star Destroyers are actually not a bad design in some respects: they're multipurpose ships small enough to be mass produced, but able to hold their own on long solo missions or against most adversaries. Very good for the type of policing actions and patrol duties that would have formed a large portion of the Imperial fleet's activities.

However, they do suffer from the the flaw that you mentioned, as well as a blind spot to the rear of the ship, which Han Solo made very good use of. The large hanger is arguably a liability as well, due to probable losses in structural integrity and possibly power generation capabilities.

Well, we have no idea how long that battle went on for.

Less than a few hours, given that the battle began somewhere in mid-afternoon and was over by early evening judging by daylight.


Also, the Ewoks had very good cover in the forest

Which they made absolutely no use of by running around screaming and yelling.

I still maintain that the Ewoks should have been killed, stuffed and sold at plushy stores for kids.

I agree about "it's a trap", unless those star destroyers had some kind of forcefield of their own that made light-speeding out of there impossible.

As for the rest of the OP... *snickers audibly* You read the novels *laughs uproariously*

Well I tried to read them... got bored. Most of what I know about the post RoJ story comes from friends who love it.

I don't claim to know you, let alone understand you, Neo Bretonnia, but I'm truly surprised that you seem to have (mis-)spent so much of your life pondering this.

Don't be surprised. I analyze sci fi movies the way some people study Shakespeare or Hemmingway.

Ahhhh Ron Moore... you complete me...

Never enough hate for Ewoks. The appearance of the bloody muppets made me suddenly shift from the Rebel side to the Imperial side.

I don't blame you. Not one little bit.

Olmedreca;14675701']Well, Star Destroyer is pretty fail design, who the hell locates bridge of military starship outside the main hull? Thats like painting red dot on the part of ship where captain is sitting so that enemy would have no aiming problems.

I agree it's not a great design but there seems to be some question as to where, exactly, the bridge IS.

On the Executor we saw an A-wing ram the bridge after the bridge deflector screens were disabled by the exploding sensor tower. Clearly it was on the 'T' shaped structure on the dorsal hull.

BUT... On an Imperial class Destroyer... remember when they were chasing the Millenium Falcon and Solo was able to maneuver in such a way as to cause the two star destroyers to collide? The ships appeared to hit and slide along each other on the sides, like two wedges placed side by side and rubbed together... So contact was nowhere near the dorsal structure.

But remember the shot of the bridge, when the officers stumbled form the impact? The other ship was clearly visible immediately outside the viewports.

Hmph.

And I have also read the Zahn books, and other EU books (which officially mean nothing if they contradict the films, incidently).

A name means nothing. The term dreadnought as a specific meaning in military nomenclature.
A specific meaning that involves being a capital ship. Dreadnoughts are larger and more massive than cruisers as a general rule.
Also, this was during the days of the rather demilitarized Old Republic. Back then, the Katana Dreadnoughts might have actually been dreadnoughts. However, by the time of Return of the Jedi, the Empire had a vast fleet of more powerful ships. So, to a lesser extent, did the Mon Calimari. The real Dreadnoughts are ships like the Executor.

Perhaps the Katana Dreadnoughts were top battleships in their times. And during WW1, Battleships were the top warships. 30 years later, carriers had gone a long way towards making them useless.
And 30 years later, refitted dreadnoughts were still in play. I'm a bit of a battleship buff. The last refitted dreadnought wasn't taken out of the line of the Turkish navy until the 60s.

The HMS Dreadnought, dating back to 1906, outmassed anything that wasn't called a battlecruiser or battleship, or turned out to be some kind of aircraft carrier. (The Kirov class might be ambiguous, but Western sources usually call it a battlecruiser.) Even today, most nuclear cruisers are around 10,000 tons, less than the Dreadnought.

It's crystal clear that all the big Imperial ships are called Star Destroyers, from the Victory class on up.
The best explanation I've heard for that is that the two sides were closely matched in strength, and that these were ships not currently tied up with defensive duties that could help shift the balance of power (easy to crew, to). Other explanations might be possible as well, but it was not due to them being exceptionally powerful warships.

Military nomenclature is all over the place in Star Wars. For example, the Executor class is referred to in the EU as a type of "Star Dreadnought," and the Mon Calimari ships (star destroyer size), are called cruisers. The novelization of RotJ even refers to the Rebel "Headquaters Frigate."
"Frigate" being one of the world's most flexible naval terms.

Any super Star Destroyer - any Imperial ship larger than a regular Star Destroyer - is worth making a huge fuss about. We've seen that time and time again. We've also seen that almost every common ship out there is way smaller.

The Carrack light cruiser, which you might remember from games, is all of 350m. What defines the traditional naval role of a destroyer is that it protects big ships from tiny ships. The Carrack actually fits that bill; the Imperial Star Destroyer doesn't.
No, it isn't. Star Destroyers are mass-produced, multipurpose ships (25,000 according to another EU book, one written by Zahn too if I recall correctly). Sounds like a cruiser to me.
A heavy aviation cruiser, perhaps, but not an actual destroyer. 25,000 sounds like a lot to us, but it's not actually a huge number compared to the number of worlds the Emperor terrorizes.

Less than a few hours, given that the battle began somewhere in mid-afternoon and was over by early evening judging by daylight.



Which they made absolutely no use of by running around screaming and yelling.

I still maintain that the Ewoks should have been killed, stuffed and sold at plushy stores for kids.
I think merchandising them to kids was the general idea.

Dude, if it turns out Leia is Luke's sister, then that kiss in Empire Strikes Back was like totally nasty.

A specific meaning that involves being a capital ship. Dreadnoughts are larger and more massive than cruisers as a general rule.[QUOTE]

Yes. Which is why the Clone Wars era "Dreadnoughts" don't fit the name. The fact that they're called dreadnoughts mean nothing. You have to look at where they fit in relation to other ships.

[QUOTE]And 30 years later, refitted dreadnoughts were still in play. I'm a bit of a battleship buff. The last refitted dreadnought wasn't taken out of the line of the Turkish navy until the 60s.

Proving what? They were still second-tier warships at best, where they not?

The HMS Dreadnought, dating back to 1906, outmassed anything that wasn't called a battlecruiser or battleship, or turned out to be some kind of aircraft carrier. (The Kirov class might be ambiguous, but Western sources usually call it a battlecruiser.) Even today, most nuclear cruisers are around 10,000 tons, less than the Dreadnought.

Again, how is this relevant to the facts that ISDs fit the cruiser role better than the dreadnought role, that Clone Wars era "dreadnoughts" are much too small for the name, and that Star Wars nomenclature is screwy as hell?

It's crystal clear that all the big Imperial ships are called Star Destroyers, from the Victory class on up.

Indeed. But big is a relative term. An ISD is bigger than a Clone Wars era dreadnought. But it is far smaller than an Imperial Star Dreadnought such as the Eclipse or Executor class vessels.

"Frigate" being one of the world's most flexible naval terms.

When was the last time you heard "Frigate" applied to a command ship (presuming it meant Home One, that's a vessel much bigger than the standard Star Destroyers in the films)?

Any super Star Destroyer - any Imperial ship larger than a regular Star Destroyer - is worth making a huge fuss about. We've seen that time and time again. We've also seen that almost every common ship out there is way smaller.

Yes, cruisers, like regular ISDs, are much smaller and more common. Dreadnoughts and command ships, like the Executor, are a big deal.

The Carrack light cruiser, which you might remember from games, is all of 350m. What defines the traditional naval role of a destroyer is that it protects big ships from tiny ships. The Carrack actually fits that bill; the Imperial Star Destroyer doesn't.

I'm not very familiar with the Carrack, but it is, from what I've heard, at the very low end of the scale with regards to cruisers. I'd say its a light cruiser, while the ISD is a heavy cruiser or attack cruiser.

A heavy aviation cruiser, perhaps, but not an actual destroyer. 25,000 sounds like a lot to us, but it's not actually a huge number compared to the number of worlds the Emperor terrorizes.

Maybe, but the Empire was building up a military from a largely demilitarized Republic, and had no outside threat able to bring them down to compel them to build faster. Also, they had lots (as in probably tens or hundreds of millions) of smaller ships, and 25,000 hyperdrive equipped cruisers that can melt a planet's crust is not an insignificant force.

probably didnt defect that much as the Empire has better tailoring

A name means nothing. The term dreadnought as a specific meaning in military nomenclature.Did you already know that the ships to which it applies in RL nearly had a rather different designation instead? They were named after 'HMS Dreadnought' because it was the very first "all-'big gun'" battleship to be launched, but the Japanese actually had one under construction that should have beaten it to that record: If the Japanese hadn't decided to reduce the size of some of their ship's guns, so that they'd have more money available to spend on its engines instead, then these ships would have been Satsumas...
^_^

Yes. Which is why the Clone Wars era "Dreadnoughts" don't fit the name. The fact that they're called dreadnoughts mean nothing. You have to look at where they fit in relation to other ships.
Which is to say for the most part larger and more powerful. So, no, Zahn wasn't giving them an inappropriate name.
Proving what? They were still second-tier warships at best, where they not?
Dreadnoughts in WWII... Katana dreadnoughts in Zahn. Both occupying that second-tier warship role - bigger than almost everything else, but simply not in the league of the real first-tier warships.
Again, how is this relevant to the facts that ISDs fit the cruiser role better than the dreadnought role, that Clone Wars era "dreadnoughts" are much too small for the name, and that Star Wars nomenclature is screwy as hell?
Actually, given they have an identical-caliber main battery (look at the model) and are much bigger than 99.99+% of all other ships running around, they fit that role pretty well except for the fact that they carry small craft.
Indeed. But big is a relative term. An ISD is bigger than a Clone Wars era dreadnought. But it is far smaller than an Imperial Star Dreadnought such as the Eclipse or Executor class vessels.
The term "Imperial Star Dreadnought" is an invention of Dr. Saxton and shows up very rarely in Star Wars novels. Back when I was reading a lot of Star Wars novels, nobody was using the term yet at all. You'll notice it is controversial even on Wikipedia and Wookieepedia, and that they are also called super star destroyers. Much as the ridiculously large battleships you see people RPing with here on NS are called super battleships.

Things like the Eclipse are really one-off superweapons designed to replace entire fleets of regular battleships.
When was the last time you heard "Frigate" applied to a command ship (presuming it meant Home One, that's a vessel much bigger than the standard Star Destroyers in the films)?
The last time I talked about 19th century naval warfare. "Frigate" is one of the most ambiguous roles, go read about it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigate) before you make a fool of yourself. Currently, frigates are escort ships, but in different eras it has been synonymous with the modern ideas of battleship (19th century) or cruiser (18th century).
Yes, cruisers, like regular ISDs, are much smaller and more common. Dreadnoughts and command ships, like the Executor, are a big deal.
The difference between regular Imperial cruisers and Imperial Star Destroyers is as big as the difference between them and the smallest "super star destroyers."
I'm not very familiar with the Carrack, but it is, from what I've heard, at the very low end of the scale with regards to cruisers. I'd say its a light cruiser, while the ISD is a heavy cruiser or attack cruiser.
Largest ship the US Navy used as a "heavy cruiser" - usually called a battlecruiser and properly a capital ship under the Treaty of Washington: 246m (Alaska), almost 30,000 tons.
Smallest light cruiser of WWII in the USN that I'm aware of: 146m (Atlanta), nominally 6,000 tons.

Notice that? 146m to 246m. That's close to the difference between a Victory class and an Imperial class (1600 to 900). But 1600m to 350m? A ~50m ship in WWII would fall in between a PT boat and a light destroyer. It's not remotely near the same class, nor does it have the same role. The Carrack is an anti-fighter picket (i.e., filling a role common to destroyers in WWII) while the Imperial is something like a heavy aviation cruiser (i.e., battleship/carrier hybrid).
Maybe, but the Empire was building up a military from a largely demilitarized Republic, and had no outside threat able to bring them down to compel them to build faster. Also, they had lots (as in probably tens or hundreds of millions) of smaller ships, and 25,000 hyperdrive equipped cruisers that can melt a planet's crust is not an insignificant force.
If they have ten to hundreds of millions of other little ships down in the "this is smaller than a Clone Wars dreadnought" range - as is the case with every Imperial ship not called a Star Destroyer - then that's all the more reason to call the Star Destroyer as some kind of super-battleship, seeing as they're larger than >99.9% of all other ships fielded by the Imperial Navy.

I would also say that's probably also grievous exaggeration on the firepower.

I can't believe I'm actually getting into this discussion, but no, I wouldn't expect Imperial Troops to defect.
Civilisations on earth have committed genocide many times over, and there has never been a mass-defection of people away from them. They're the winners, after all.


Also, the Empire clearly uses both overt and covert behaviour modification.

It's more of a surprise that there's hint of insurrection, than that there's a lack of mass-defection.

...which is a better film anyways.

*ducks*

Much, much, much better film.

What annoys me about ROTJ is that there was no leia on jabba action. She is prejudiced against fat people. And speaking of her, the other thing that annoys me is that there was metal on her breasts. They clearly blocked my view of her breasts.

Ideal imperial strategy?
Very simple: retreat to the shield generator and close the doors. Vaporize the whole forest with a squadron of T/B armed with FAEs.

I love the smell of toasted Ewoks in the morning...

This.

If you're going to make the one weakness of your vessel a remote device - don't put it in the middle of heavy cover populated by intelligent natives.

I realise it would have shat in Lucas' custard, but the CORRECT behaviour for putting a shield generator on Endor, would have been to nuke the thing from orbit till it was a cold, dead cinder.

Watch the Ewoks hide in no fucking trees.

Watch the Ewoks hide in no fucking trees.

But then they would become mimes! And since everyone knows that mimes are the Devils spawn...

But then they would become mimes! And since everyone knows that mimes are the Devils spawn...

Well, no one said nuking it from orbit was a one-off. If you find Ewok Mimes infesting your moon, you burn them out, just like you would with the tree-dwelling form.

Well, no one said nuking it from orbit was a one-off. If you find Ewok Mimes infesting your moon, you burn them out, just like you would with the tree-dwelling form.
Considering the fact that all the cheesy, plasticky might of the Empire didn't suffice to win against what basically were morbidly obese hamsters equipped with the latest in stick-and-pebble technology, what would happen if the aforementioned rodents suddenly gained access to unlimited imaginary weaponry? No-one would be able to stand against their silent and yet expressive onslaught!

Considering the fact that all the cheesy, plasticky might of the Empire didn't suffice to win against what basically were morbidly obese hamsters equipped with the latest in stick-and-pebble technology, what would happen if the aforementioned rodents suddenly gained access to unlimited imaginary weaponry? No-one would be able to stand against their silent and yet expressive onslaught!

What's everyone got against the Ewoks? I loved them! Caravan of Courage and Ewoks: The Battle for Endor were 2 of my fave movies growing up.

What's everyone got against the Ewoks? I loved them! Caravan of Courage and Ewoks: The Battle for Endor were 2 of my fave movies growing up.

Imagine Gollum, festering, psychotic shell of a sentient. Now imagine him played by Barney the Dinosaur.

That's what Ewoks are to the rest of us.

Imagine Gollum, festering, psychotic shell of a sentient. Now imagine him played by Barney the Dinosaur.

That's what Ewoks are to the rest of us.

Dude... it is WAY too early in the morning for a mental image like that.

This.

If you're going to make the one weakness of your vessel a remote device - don't put it in the middle of heavy cover populated by intelligent natives.

I realise it would have shat in Lucas' custard, but the CORRECT behaviour for putting a shield generator on Endor, would have been to nuke the thing from orbit till it was a cold, dead cinder.

Watch the Ewoks hide in no fucking trees.

Or, and this might just be a crazy crazy idea, you put the shield generator inside the thing that it is supposed to shield..

Or, and this might just be a crazy crazy idea, you put the shield generator inside the thing that it is supposed to shield..
That way madness lies!

Next thread title should be: You know whats always bugged me about The Bridges of Madison County? And i dare you to make it last as long as this thread.

Its really funny to still be bugged about any movie that was made before over half the posters here were even alive.

Next thread title should be: You know whats always bugged me about The Bridges of Madison County? And i dare you to make it last as long as this thread.

Its really funny to still be bugged about any movie that was made before over half the posters here were even alive.

Well you know how it is... LucasFilm moving heaven and earth to keep trying to make these movies sell like new... redoing special effects, remastering, reshuffling the self-congratulatory special features...

I want you guys to observe something; You're offering a lot of detail and explanations about these things by going to supplemental material like novels, comic books and so on. That's perfectly fine, and those are perfectly valid sources.

I'm not trying to say that Star Wars left these things open. If I've given that idea then forgive me... What I'm trying to say here is that the movies THEMSELVES would have benefited from more exposition on these things.

I mean, think about it... Return of the Jedi would have been a WAY better movie if, instead of wasting time on 45 minutes of rescuing Han from Jabba and seemingly endless shots of Ewoks running around, we could have introduced a subplot of maybe a particular Star Destroyer that would symbolize a growing movement in the Imperial Navy that defects to the Rebels.

Even better: THEY, instead of Bothan spies, provided the location of Death Star II.
Icing on the cake: THAT is where the Rebels got the shuttle Tyderion.
Orgasmically awesome: Rebel TiE fighters, painted red, running interference for the Death Star run.
Pass out from ZOMG!!!!!: The Star Destroyer is renamed "The Dagger of Justice" and rams the Executor's bridge instead of a pansy A-Wing.

Now THAT would be worth the price of admission.

That would have taken an epic story and made it truly EPIC.

You know, that's not a bad idea. Maybe even make it an officer who was under Darth Vader in the second film, and decided he couldn't take any more of serving under a murderer like that (to add continuity).

Sounds like something a fanfic would be written about.

What annoys me about ROTJ is that there was no leia on jabba action. She is prejudiced against fat people. And speaking of her, the other thing that annoys me is that there was metal on her breasts. They clearly blocked my view of her breasts.

considering that they didn't have bras back then (old interview with Carrie Fisher) yet they obviously did when Padme was alive (See Carrie's Complaint about the first three episodes.)... Leia in a metal bikini is definately fan service.

My complaint was why her clothes wern't wet after the trash compactor bit. :tongue:

I want you guys to observe something; You're offering a lot of detail and explanations about these things by going to supplemental material like novels, comic books and so on. That's perfectly fine, and those are perfectly valid sources.

I'm not trying to say that Star Wars left these things open. If I've given that idea then forgive me... What I'm trying to say here is that the movies THEMSELVES would have benefited from more exposition on these things.

I mean, think about it... Return of the Jedi would have been a WAY better movie if, instead of wasting time on 45 minutes of rescuing Han from Jabba and seemingly endless shots of Ewoks running around, we could have introduced a subplot of maybe a particular Star Destroyer that would symbolize a growing movement in the Imperial Navy that defects to the Rebels.

Even better: THEY, instead of Bothan spies, provided the location of Death Star II.
Icing on the cake: THAT is where the Rebels got the shuttle Tyderion.
Orgasmically awesome: Rebel TiE fighters, painted red, running interference for the Death Star run.
Pass out from ZOMG!!!!!: The Star Destroyer is renamed "The Dagger of Justice" and rams the Executor's bridge instead of a pansy A-Wing.

Now THAT would be worth the price of admission.

That would have taken an epic story and made it truly EPIC.

or you have a totally overwhelming imperial fleet at endor... and you have about a quarter to half of them switch sides.

but you know that wouldn't work with the backbone of the imperial forces being loyal clones.

Yes, defections of individual officers or smaller ships are plausible. Defections mid-battle of half the enemy fleet? Almost impossible. Even a Star Destroyer defecting is implausible.

Yes, defections of individual officers or smaller ships are plausible. Defections mid-battle of half the enemy fleet? Almost impossible. Even a Star Destroyer defecting is implausible.

You're talking about a movie in which semi-intelligent bears defeated an Imperial ground assault force and you want to talk to us about implausible?
:p

You're talking about a movie in which semi-intelligent bears defeated an Imperial ground assault force and you want to talk to us about implausible?
:p

Yes, but most people take offense to the incident described above, so it might not be the best argument against plausibility.;)

Also, Ewoks are not "semi-intelligent," unless stone age humans were as well. They have a technological society, with language, religion, and at least a crude understanding of military tactics. I mean, they built gliders and catapults. Aren't you setting the bar rather high for intelligence?

It doesn't seem like Executor size ships are all that rare in the Star Wars world. In the movie canon at least. I'll be honest and admit I'm basing that on really one line of dialogue.

(While approaching Endor to infiltrate and nearing the Executor).

Luke: Vader's on that ship.
Han: Don't get jittery, there are a lot of command ships in the galaxy.

That's paraphrased, I'm sure someone can find the correct dialogue, but I thought that nonchalant attitude towards that impressive a ship interesting.

To be fair, that's open to interpretation. The designation of command ship might be bestode on any vessel that served as a flagship of a sector fleet or an important official's personal vessel, regardless of the power of said ship. Its certainly suggestive, but not conclusive.

Just keep re-watching the parts with Leia in the slave girl suit until you forget about the inconsistencies in the space battle.

Yes, but most people take offense to the incident described above, so it might not be the best argument against plausibility.;)

Also, Ewoks are not "semi-intelligent," unless stone age humans were as well. They have a technological society, with language, religion, and at least a crude understanding of military tactics. I mean, they built gliders and catapults. Aren't you setting the bar rather high for intelligence?

Well yeah... but I'm feeling bitter toward them at the moment.

To be fair, that's open to interpretation. The designation of command ship might be bestode on any vessel that served as a flagship of a sector fleet or an important official's personal vessel, regardless of the power of said ship. Its certainly suggestive, but not conclusive.

I disagree, since Han seemed to interpret Luke's unease as resulting from a visual recognition of the ship, as opposed to a stirring in the Force. If Han thought Luke meant something like "That looks like Vader's ship," then it does imply that there are indeed many ships of that class.

...

I'm not trying to say that Star Wars left these things open. If I've given that idea then forgive me... What I'm trying to say here is that the movies THEMSELVES would have benefited from more exposition on these things.

I mean, think about it... Return of the Jedi would have been a WAY better movie if, instead of wasting time on 45 minutes of rescuing Han from Jabba and seemingly endless shots of Ewoks running around, we could have introduced a subplot of maybe ...

Now THAT would be worth the price of admission.

That would have taken an epic story and made it truly EPIC.

Neo Bretonnia, that's the kind of idea I was getting at when I posted before. It's been quite some time since I watched the DVDs but the way I remember the interviews and other extra bits, Lucas made a point of saying -- more than once -- that they ended up deleting scenes because although they added more cool stuff like background, character development, details of setting and so on, they didn't move the story along fast enough so they were removed. And it's a pity. Maybe if they'd done more of that stuff instead of less, we wouldn't even be having this thread. (And maybe they would've realized that instead of filling a whole planet with The Teddy Bears From Hell, they could've invented a plausible species to populate it.)

Of course then we'd have to have other threads about all those extra things.

We could even have time for threads about other things completely. For example, how can anyone find so much time to complain about Ewoks when there are so many reasons to loathe the Gungans, especially Jar Jar Binks? I know he/they were in other episodes than RoJ, but for me, they make Ewoks almost bearable. I'd strangle Jar Jar myself, except that I just know I'd regret not making him suffer more.

We could even have time for threads about other things completely. For example, how can anyone find so much time to complain about Ewoks when there are so many reasons to loathe the Gungans, especially Jar Jar Binks? I know he/they were in other episodes than RoJ, but for me, they make Ewoks almost bearable. I'd strangle Jar Jar myself, except that I just know I'd regret not making him suffer more.

^This especially. So very, very this.

Although I do also concur with the rest of your post ;)

I've just had a brain-wave: Jar Jar could be killed off fittingly and at the same time, my other hated character could be done away with. Just put Jar Jar into a pit with C-3PO and make them fight to the death. C-3PO's endless stream of neurotic narcissistic blather versus Jar Jar's excessively stumbling version of a "Step'n'Fetchit" routine should make them about even, and a likely outcome will be that just as Jar Jar manages to rip 3PO's body to bits, with his last ramblings C-3PO will make Jar Jar suicidal. After Jar Jar smashes 3PO's head and its computer to bits, thus "killing" him, he will pick up a bit of one of 3PO's arms or legs and beat his own brains out as well.

Ah-h-h-h. Bliss!

I always pictured Jar-Jar going down in political flames after his sudden elevation from exile to senator leaves him unable to cope with the sudden influx of wealth and power.

He would meet his end laying naked, face down, on the carpet in his apartment on Coruscant with cocaine and mucus oozing out of his nose, a few objects of questionable moral use scattered around the room and the hired Twi'lek prostitutes going through his pockets for loose change before slipping away to catch a transport out of the area.

Epic.

Wookies on Endor would have been so much cooler than Ewoks.

I always pictured Jar-Jar going down in political flames after his sudden elevation from exile to senator leaves him unable to cope with the sudden influx of wealth and power.

He would meet his end laying naked, face down, on the carpet in his apartment on Coruscant with cocaine and mucus oozing out of his nose, a few objects of questionable moral use scattered around the room and the hired Twi'lek prostitutes going through his pockets for loose change before slipping away to catch a transport out of the area.

Epic.

I've always pictured Jar Jar's head ending up on Emperor Palpatine's wall. after all, it was Jar Jar who campaigned for Senator Palpatine's rise to Emperor.

Wookies on Endor would have been so much cooler than Ewoks.It was originally supposed to be a boarding party of Wookies that defeated the original Death Star...
Yes, "seriously".

Well, we have no idea how long that battle went on for. And its very clear that, without Rebel support, the Ewoks would have had their asses handed to them in short order.

Also, the Ewoks had very good cover in the forest, while the Empire, for all Palpatine's talk about "an entire legion," had to all appearances a few dozen to a few hundred light infantry and 4 scout walkers, and some speeder bikes to hunt them down.

The Empire was so outmatched simply because it had to be, for the story to work. A Roman Legion was 6000 soldiers, in a setting where the Imperial Army may well have had well over a billion Stormtroopers it makes no sense for this number to be less, and likely much, much higher than a piddly 6000, especially at such an important bunker... also considering the space-borne support (which amount to at least as couple hundred thousand stormtroopers in SD's alone).

He initially wanted Wookiees, but was addled, and decided that Ewoks would be a good way to draw children and ridiculously parady the Vietnam War... George Lucas must not have realized that the Empire doesn't seem to be the "limited warfare" type... which is confusing, considering they opened by pretty much annihilating a peaceful core planet for pretty much no reason.

I finally figured it out... The thing that has always bothered me but I could never, until now, figure out exactly what it was. It finally dawned on me this weekend.

About two thirds of the way through Return of the Jedi the Rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace and begins the assault on Death Star II. Meanwhile, an Imperial blockade of Star Destroyers arrives to block their escape. (How a single large clump of ships prevents a hyperspace capable fleet from leaving in a 3 dimensional space I'll never understand, but that's not the issue here.)

The battle rages on and ultimately the Emperor is defeated and the Rebels win. Later, they incorporate the New Republic and, according to the canon novels (Heir to the Empire) the Imperial fleet retreats to the outer rim to regroup.

Here's the problem:

Wouldn't you think in a galactic civil war, especially one in which one side has been known to commit genocide, that there would be mass defections from the Empire to the Rebels? Why wouldn't the Rebel fleet have been composed, not only of converted Mon Calamari cruisers and frigates, but also of turncoat Star Destroyers and personnel? The destruction of Alderaan and the subsequent Rebel victory at Yavin 4 should have triggered a surge of recruits to the rebel cause, especially Imperial military. Where were these forces at Endor?

And why didn't the Rebelss eem to have any formerly Imperial assets in the later stories? I mean, one could argue that once the Death Star II was destroyed that the remaining Imperial forces may have surrendered, but the continuing story in the Zahn novels implies that at most that would only have been the fleet present at the Battle of Endor.

Furthermore, once the New Republic was constituted, they appear to have continued using Rebel equipment exclusively. This makes no sense to me. The New Republic should have had, at its disposal, a complete star navy with all classes of ships, fighters, support vessels, etc. Why wouldn't they have taken the Star Destroyers, painted them up red and white, and employed them as the Republic military? After all, there was still fighting to be done. Loyalist worlds, insurgents, Thrawn's forces, etc. still represented a security threat. Imagine the effectiveness of Republic Star Destroyers with squadrons of X-Wings supported by TIE fighters as scouts?

in fantasy wars, beamed at joe sixpack audiences, the need to tell opposing forces appart apear to have predominated.

in real science fiction of course, your point would be totally valid. the kiff 'defections' in chanure's home comming, which in many ways were really the pivotal point of the story, make my (and the op's) case in point.

of course chenure earned her sffffik. and the games being played by the mahendosat, make for beleivable complications.

anyway, i've loved hilfy since the kiff strike back too.