NationStates Jolt Archive

I was walking to the store to pick up some cat food. There are two churches on my street and as I passed one of them, mass was just letting out. There were a lot of people walking in the opposite direction carrying pieces of palm leaves, some of them tied into crosses et c. As I got closer to the church, I noticed that there was a guy standing near the walkway holding a sign that read "Hungry Please Help". From the time I spotted him (about a block) to the time I eventually felt sorry for him and gave him the $0.50 in change I had after passing him and turning around, not a single person carrying a palm leaf or generally leaving the church gave him anything. They all walked past as though there wasn't someone there.

I sort of expect this on a day to day basis, usually there are a lot of people begging for money and you can't give everyone some change (and often I don't have any change to give). However, these people had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them. You would think that they would stop and throw the guy some change (maybe he did too, which is why he picked that spot). Instead, as far as I could tell, the only person who gave him anything (though I hope not $0.50 isn't going to buy much) is someone randomly passing by who doesn't even believe in any of this.

And this is why Christianity fails. Because so many people who follow it are either fundamentalist fools or hypocrites.

Thats why they had him die, so they wouldnt have to give anything anymore, duh...

That was the old Jesus. The new Jesus just expects them to compare snazzy outfits and sing songs once a week. ;)

And this is why Christianity fails. Because so many people who follow it are either fundamentalist fools or hypocrites.

I think it's more that a lot of people assume that they've done enough by listening to stories about Jesus that they don't have to behave in a way which is consistent with what he taught. It's probably more a problem with people than with the teachings. Or perhaps it's a problem with which part is emphasized about the teachings (i.e. the part where everyone is a sinner versus the help your fellow human part).

I don't even think that fundamentalists are particularly good with trying to help the homeless by and large.

They're probably of the mindset that he would just use it to buy booze

They're probably of the mindset that he would just use it to buy booze

Then they could offer him dinner.

They're probably of the mindset that he would just use it to buy booze

And they are probably right.

They're probably of the mindset that he would just use it to buy booze

Jesus wouldve bled it for Him..

Then they could offer him dinner.

That's what a friend of my mum's did (and still does for all I know). Well not quite, but she used to take them to a cafe and buy them a meal and a cup of tea. If they declined, then they obviously weren't that needy.

They're probably of the mindset that he would just use it to buy booze
That's not supposed to matter. From the Palm Sunday ritual described, I'm going to guess they were Catholics. The kind of judgmentalism you describe sounds too Calvinist for them to get away with. They're just hypocrites, and that's all there is to it. They can wave those palms all they like. When their god comes back, there isn't going to be a seat for them on the hippy bus to heaven unless they learn to care.

Instead, as far as I could tell, the only person who gave him anything (though I hope not $0.50 isn't going to buy much) is someone randomly passing by who doesn't even believe in any of this.
so you really don't know... do you?

They're probably of the mindset that he would just use it to buy booze

They have no idea whatsoever, but they're going to make the assumption that that dirty bum was just going to do something that, apparently, he's not supposed to do. This assumption - by coincidence, of course - conveniently justifies their collective decision to not stick their fat fingers into their pockets and bring out a piece of change.

And even if he was, to the people who don't give money to the homeless on the above basis, I ask you - Is the idea of giving a conditional one? Sort of like a loan? You're investing in the guy's future so you don't want to make the wrong investment? You want to make a contract and set forth terms and conditions? Just so you can feel comfortable with giving something you don't even need to someone in a very obviously worse condition than you who is asking for it?

Then they could offer him dinner.

They probably did and he turned them down.

so you really don't know... do you?

Shh... play along. ;)

They have no idea whatsoever, but they're going to make the assumption that that dirty bum was just going to do something that, apparently, he's not supposed to do. This assumption - by coincidence, of course - conveniently justifies their collective decision to not stick their fat fingers into their pockets and bring out a piece of change.

Here I agree with you

And even if he was, to the people who don't give money to the homeless on the above basis, I ask you - Is the idea of giving a conditional one? Sort of like a loan? You're investing in the guy's future so you don't want to make the wrong investment? You want to make a contract and set forth terms and conditions? Just so you can feel comfortable with giving something you don't even need to someone in a very obviously worse condition than you who is asking for it?

If I buy a homeless person anything it will be a necessity rather than giving them cash to enable a vice.

And this is why Christianity fails. Because so many people who follow it are either fundamentalist fools or hypocrites.
Not just christianity. Judaism and Islam are failures too, I think.

Am I wrong?

That's what a friend of my mum's did (and still does for all I know). Well not quite, but she used to take them to a cafe and buy them a meal and a cup of tea. If they declined, then they obviously weren't that needy.

Or maybe they were suspicious of your motives. Just because I need money to eat doesn't mean I want to have dinner with my employer. Let alone some random stranger. And what are those motives here, for wanting to buy them a meal?

I'm guessing: 1, you get to watch them eat, and it's a power trip and you feel awesome about yourself because of how generous you are. 2, you don't trust them, and believe they're just going to buy drugs or alcohol (Oh, No!) and by forcing them to eat a meal with you, you get to observe and control their behavior there.

And it's all bullshit. If they really want alcohol or drugs, you think they are going to wait for money from stingy, suspicious, hypocritical passers by to get it? By depriving them of money you're only depriving them of the freedom and opportunity that money represents. And if they're drug addicts, forcing them to steal. But at least you didn't accidentally pitch in a 25 cent piece on a bottle of wine! Way to go!

Then they could offer him dinner.

Exactly, I was leaving walking downtown Seattle with another person when a guy asked for change because he was hungry. Well he was standing in front of Jack in the Box. So I told him I would go in and buy him a meal if he wanted. He said great. I even asked him what he wanted. His response was anything.... So went in and bought him a meal and gave it to him. He was extremely happy about it. Anyway lesson is that buying someone food was far better for him and I then giving a dollar or two for liquor.

Not just christianity. Judaism and Islam are failures too, I think.

Am I wrong?
I think it would be more accurate to say human beings fail. I know plenty of ultra-liberal people who profess no religion, go on and on about social justice and equality, yet never give anything to a beggar on the street.

And I know others who always give something.

And I know conservatives who give, as well.

It's an issue of people's attitudes, not necessarily their club memberships.

What's WWJD?

Exactly, I was leaving walking downtown Seattle with another person when a guy asked for change because he was hungry. Well he was standing in front of Jack in the Box. So I told him I would go in and buy him a meal if he wanted. He said great. I even asked him what he wanted. His response was anything.... So went in and bought him a meal and gave it to him. He was extremely happy about it. Anyway lesson is that buying someone food was far better for him and I then giving a dollar or two for liquor.
Of course, since he accepted the food, what makes you think he would have spent that dollar on booze instead of food?

Or maybe they were suspicious of your motives. Just because I need money to eat doesn't mean I want to have dinner with my employer. Let alone some random stranger. And what are those motives here, for wanting to buy them a meal?

I'm guessing: 1, you get to watch them eat, and it's a power trip and you feel awesome about yourself because of how generous you are. 2, you don't trust them, and believe they're just going to buy drugs or alcohol (Oh, No!) and by forcing them to eat a meal with you, you get to observe and control their behavior there.

And it's all bullshit. If they really want alcohol or drugs, you think they are going to wait for money from stingy, suspicious, hypocritical passers by to get it? By depriving them of money you're only depriving them of the freedom and opportunity that money represents. And if they're drug addicts, forcing them to steal. But at least you didn't accidentally pitch in a 25 cent piece on a bottle of wine! Way to go!

Because the motives couldn't possibly be anything other than completely self-absorbed.

What's WWJD?

What Would Jesus Do

What's WWJD?
Stands for "What Would Jesus Do?" Someone wrote a some kind of Christian handbook with that title once. It was a bestseller, I believe.

Not just christianity. Judaism and Islam are failures too, I think.

Am I wrong?

Religion= epic fail.

What's WWJD?

What Would Jesus Do.... for a Klondike bar?:p

What Would Jesus Do

Oh, and there I was thinking that Dakini had mispelled a brand of alcopop.

Because the motives couldn't possibly be anything other than completely self-absorbed.

I'm beyond the point where I'm treating sentence fragments like well-reasoned arguments.

They're probably of the mindset that he would just use it to buy booze

Which part of Jesus' teachings involves judging others?

I was walking to the store to pick up some cat food. There are two churches on my street and as I passed one of them, mass was just letting out. There were a lot of people walking in the opposite direction carrying pieces of palm leaves, some of them tied into crosses et c. As I got closer to the church, I noticed that there was a guy standing near the walkway holding a sign that read "Hungry Please Help". From the time I spotted him (about a block) to the time I eventually felt sorry for him and gave him the $0.50 in change I had after passing him and turning around, not a single person carrying a palm leaf or generally leaving the church gave him anything. They all walked past as though there wasn't someone there.

I sort of expect this on a day to day basis, usually there are a lot of people begging for money and you can't give everyone some change (and often I don't have any change to give). However, these people had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them. You would think that they would stop and throw the guy some change (maybe he did too, which is why he picked that spot). Instead, as far as I could tell, the only person who gave him anything (though I hope not $0.50 isn't going to buy much) is someone randomly passing by who doesn't even believe in any of this.

"We've all seen the man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dreadlocked and full of mange
He ask the man for what he could spare with shame in his eyes
Get a job you fuckin' slob's all he replied

True.

I'm guessing: 1, you get to watch them eat, and it's a power trip and you feel awesome about yourself because of how generous you are. 2, you don't trust them, and believe they're just going to buy drugs or alcohol (Oh, No!) and by forcing them to eat a meal with you, you get to observe and control their behavior there.


This.

Shh... play along. ;) oops... *Ahem*

I was once approached by a woman who gave a story about how she borrowed her friends car and it got towed, now she needed to get back to her home on the other side of the island and needed cab fare (tho the bus that would take her cost $2 and the trip would be less than an hour) so that she could take her desperately needed medicine.

So I gave her a $10.

couple weeks later, she gave me the same story... exact same story. Gave her a $5 (and did not tell her that she gave me this story before.)

couple weeks after that, she gave the same story... this time, I really had no money on me... (yep... exact same story...)

Couple months later, she gave me the same story. this time, I was now working for a hospital, and offered to call an ambulance since this was a medical emergency and her need sounded dire...

boy she was a fast runner.

I give to people who ask (one time I offered to someone who didn't ask, they actually got 'offended') and I give when I can. To the point where some of the homeless actually stake out my travel routes.

That's what a friend of my mum's did (and still does for all I know). Well not quite, but she used to take them to a cafe and buy them a meal and a cup of tea. If they declined, then they obviously weren't that needy.

Or maybe they were suspicious of your motives. Just because I need money to eat doesn't mean I want to have dinner with my employer. Let alone some random stranger. And what are those motives here, for wanting to buy them a meal?

I'm guessing: 1, you get to watch them eat, and it's a power trip and you feel awesome about yourself because of how generous you are. 2, you don't trust them, and believe they're just going to buy drugs or alcohol (Oh, No!) and by forcing them to eat a meal with you, you get to observe and control their behavior there.

And it's all bullshit. If they really want alcohol or drugs, you think they are going to wait for money from stingy, suspicious, hypocritical passers by to get it? By depriving them of money you're only depriving them of the freedom and opportunity that money represents. And if they're drug addicts, forcing them to steal. But at least you didn't accidentally pitch in a 25 cent piece on a bottle of wine! Way to go!

Exactly, I was leaving walking downtown Seattle with another person when a guy asked for change because he was hungry. Well he was standing in front of Jack in the Box. So I told him I would go in and buy him a meal if he wanted. He said great. I even asked him what he wanted. His response was anything.... So went in and bought him a meal and gave it to him. He was extremely happy about it. Anyway lesson is that buying someone food was far better for him and I then giving a dollar or two for liquor.

Well, I'm not going to poo-poo on someone's motives for buying someone a hot meal from a cafe or restaurant, but I was referring more to inviting someone home for dinner. There's a level of trust associated with that; a generosity of spirit. In addition, I bet a warm meal, a hot shower and maybe a new set of clothes would be a lot more welcome to some people than a crumpled up buck.

And if not, there's always the crumpled up buck if he wants it.

Which part of Jesus' teachings involves judging others?

I think I should clarify for everyone that I don't agree with the mindset I posted about.

What's WWJD?

"What Would Jesus Do?"

It's a distant cousin of WWBBD?

so you really don't know... do you?

I watched this for a block, nobody slowed down as they passed him, most people even avoided walking within three feet of him (it was a wide path, but it might not have been intentional avoiding since people were generally turning the opposite direction to get to their cars). So maybe someone passed off money without slowing down at all, but I didn't see it.

out of curiosity what church do you know ?

"What Would Jesus Do?"

It's a distant cousin of WWBBD?

Rofl.

I'm beyond the point where I'm treating sentence fragments like well-reasoned arguments.

I kind of assumed you'd also be beyond the point where you decided other people's motives for them.

"What Would Jesus Do?"

It's a distant cousin of WWBBD?

I have to know.....What does 'BB' stand for?

Of course, since he accepted the food, what makes you think he would have spent that dollar on booze instead of food?

I didn't however as most people realize a lot of street people are also addicts. So to make myself feel better about giving I made sure it was something that would benefit that person instead of harming them. I also gave a pizza to a guy once and he threw it on the ground. It was a whole untouched pizza left over from a party I threw for employees. This guy was holding a sign that said "broke and hungry anything would help, god bless". Apparently anything wasn't food.

out of curiosity what church do you know ?

This one was a Catholic church on the corner of my street. There's another church right next door to me (I think Methodist) and the next street down has two other churches, I can't remember what kind they are, I don't walk past them often enough. The catholic church is really fancy though and everyone I saw looked like they could afford to give someone more money than I do (though someone's Sunday best might not be a good indication of this, but I'm a grad student... a lot of people can afford to give away more money than I can).

I have to know.....What does 'BB' stand for?

Your need to watch more bad TV.:tongue:

I kind of assumed you'd also be beyond the point where you decided other people's motives for them.

Brian Boitano. It's off The South Park Movie.

I didn't however as most people realize a lot of street people are also addicts. So to make myself feel better about giving I made sure it was something that would benefit that person instead of harming them. I also gave a pizza to a guy once and he threw it on the ground. It was a whole untouched pizza left over from a party I threw for employees. This guy was holding a sign that said "broke and hungry anything would help, god bless". Apparently anything wasn't food.

I did that with a hitchhiker who was clearly a meth head. Bought him some subway. Interesting conversation on the way the three hour drive though.

I have to know.....What does 'BB' stand for?

"What Would Brian Boitano Do?"

:D

Well, I'm not going to poo-poo on someone's motives for buying someone a hot meal from a cafe or restaurant, but I was referring more to inviting someone home for dinner. There's a level of trust associated with that; a generosity of spirit. In addition, I bet a warm meal, a hot shower and maybe a new set of clothes would be a lot more welcome to some people than a crumpled up buck.

And if not, there's always the crumpled up buck if he wants it.

As a society I think you would be hard pressed to find someone that would just invite a stranger into their home like that. There is enough crap that goes on to make us all suspicious.

This one was a Catholic church on the corner of my street. There's another church right next door to me (I think Methodist) and the next street down has two other churches, I can't remember what kind they are, I don't walk past them often enough. The catholic church is really fancy though and everyone I saw looked like they could afford to give someone more money than I do (though someone's Sunday best might not be a good indication of this, but I'm a grad student... a lot of people can afford to give away more money than I can).

The name of the church specifically.

"What Would Brian Boitano Do?"

:D

Took awhile for some to figure that out. I thought everyone watched SP.

I watched this for a block, nobody slowed down as they passed him, most people even avoided walking within three feet of him (it was a wide path, but it might not have been intentional avoiding since people were generally turning the opposite direction to get to their cars). So maybe someone passed off money without slowing down at all, but I didn't see it.
I can drop change in a cup without pausing. If I know the beggar is there (and presumably they would have seen him when they went into church), I'll usually have change for him ready in my pocket/hand before I get to him, and rush-by drop it. I do that because it makes me feel awkward to be thanked, so I try not to hesitate.

As a society I think you would be hard pressed to find someone that would just invite a stranger into their home like that. There is enough crap that goes on to make us all suspicious.

Yep. That might be something Christ would do. :tongue:

The name of the church specifically.

I don't know, it's a cathedral basilica (or those two words were swapped)... St Peter's maybe?

Why does it matter?

Took awhile for some to figure that out. I thought everyone watched SP.
Please do not insult my South Park knowledge. I already said:
Brian Boitano. It's off The South Park Movie.

I can drop change in a cup without pausing. If I know the beggar is there (and presumably they would have seen him when they went into church), I'll usually have change for him ready in my pocket/hand before I get to him, and rush-by drop it. I do that because it makes me feel awkward to be thanked, so I try not to hesitate.

He didn't have a cup or a hat. I put the money in his hand. The only other option would be tossing it on the ground. He was standing and holding a sign.

I don't know, it's a cathedral basilica (or those two words were swapped)... St Peters maybe?

what city you live in ?

Please do not insult my South Park knowledge. I already said:

Forgive my insolence. :p

I kind of assumed you'd also be beyond the point where you decided other people's motives for them.

Yes, I assume that automatically assuming the homeless are just going to buy alcohol and drugs with money you give them, and then using this as an excuse to not give them money, is a dick thing to do.

More to the point (that you clearly missed or couldn't be bothered to read), if I'm a homeless person, I have good reason to be suspicious of people's motives, considering how the homeless get targeted for all kinds of abuse, exploitation, and sick crimes.

what city you live in ?

Why does it matter?

At this point (and since I mentioned this place is near my house) I really don't want to go on with details of its location.

The name of the church specifically.

why would that matter?

I didn't however as most people realize a lot of street people are also addicts. So to make myself feel better about giving I made sure it was something that would benefit that person instead of harming them. I also gave a pizza to a guy once and he threw it on the ground. It was a whole untouched pizza left over from a party I threw for employees. This guy was holding a sign that said "broke and hungry anything would help, god bless". Apparently anything wasn't food.
You are still operating on an assumption about the given person based on prior beliefs about other people similar to him. There's a word for that...

As for the occasional person who will reject a gift of food or anything else that isn't money, that's another reason I avoid stopping to interact with beggars when I give to them. I will give what I can. I'm not going to get involved with them about whether it is what they were hoping for. If it's money, they can spend it on whatever they need or want. That's not my business. If it's food or clothing, they can eat it, use it, sell it, trade it, or throw it away. That's not my business, either.

I am not a conditional giver.

Forgive my insolence. :p

I will, but only this once.

Yep. That might be something Christ would do. :tongue:

Remember Christ can rise again once killed. As far as I know if us mortals get hacked to bits by some transient it's game over. Now if we could rise again maybe just maybe I would consider letting a homeless man or woman in my home for a hot shower and some grub.

One aspect of the problem is simple human nature.

Another is deeply rooted in the nature of Christianity, and it is this; the moment the Romans crucified Jesus, Christianity became about the manner of his death rather than the way he lived his life. The central element of Christianity is Christ's sacrifice for man by suffering on the cross. If he had lived to a ripe old age instead of being martyred at his prime I'm sure the resulting religion would be more about his laws of social action then about his death.

Although, of course, it might well not have survived; Christianity was strongly oppressed under the early Roman emperors, and in those circumstances the crucifixion was directly analogous to the martyrdoms of its later adherents. Plus if he'd lived to die of old age he'd have had time to grow cynical and crotchety and eventually go gaga until people thought that really, this guy isn't the Son of God.

why would that matter?

If I said I want to harass the church in email form would it make me a bad person ?

He didn't have a cup or a hat. I put the money in his hand. The only other option would be tossing it on the ground. He was standing and holding a sign.
You can still do that pretty fast, if you manage it right. *thinks about relay racing teams* The guy would have to learn to hold his hand out just right and not flinch.

"What Would Brian Boitano Do?"

:D

lmfao, He would go and kick an Ass or two, ;)

I was walking to the store to pick up some cat food. There are two churches on my street and as I passed one of them, mass was just letting out. There were a lot of people walking in the opposite direction carrying pieces of palm leaves, some of them tied into crosses et c. As I got closer to the church, I noticed that there was a guy standing near the walkway holding a sign that read "Hungry Please Help". From the time I spotted him (about a block) to the time I eventually felt sorry for him and gave him the $0.50 in change I had after passing him and turning around, not a single person carrying a palm leaf or generally leaving the church gave him anything. They all walked past as though there wasn't someone there.

I sort of expect this on a day to day basis, usually there are a lot of people begging for money and you can't give everyone some change (and often I don't have any change to give). However, these people had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them. You would think that they would stop and throw the guy some change (maybe he did too, which is why he picked that spot). Instead, as far as I could tell, the only person who gave him anything (though I hope not $0.50 isn't going to buy much) is someone randomly passing by who doesn't even believe in any of this.

BTW, how do you know that the people didn't give him money on the way to church?

BTW, how do you know that the people didn't give him money on the way to church?

Good point... :wink:

Yes, I assume that automatically assuming the homeless are just going to buy alcohol and drugs with money you give them, and then using this as an excuse to not give them money, is a dick thing to do.

More to the point (that you clearly missed or couldn't be bothered to read), if I'm a homeless person, I have good reason to be suspicious of people's motives, considering how the homeless get targeted for all kinds of abuse, exploitation, and sick crimes.

Way to miss the point. The issue I take with your post is that you ruled out anything besides malevolence or self-interest. You didn't acknowledge the possibility of misguided compassion or anything of the sort.

Remember Christ can rise again once killed. As far as I know if us mortals get hacked to bits by some transient it's game over. Now if we could rise again maybe just maybe I would consider letting a homeless man or woman in my home for a hot shower and some grub.

Here you go:

http://content.pyzam.com/funnypics/0/pyzam1up.jpg

:D

If I said I want to harass the church in email form would it make me a bad person ?

I don't know what the church itself has to do with this. It's the congregation who did this. And really, I'm not sure what harassing the church would accomplish. Unless they're going to give a special sermon about giving and taking the lessons they (should) learn during sermons and applying them outside the church...

BTW, how do you know that the people didn't give him money on the way to church?

How do you know he wasn't actually made up of money?


Way to miss the point. The issue I take with your post is that you ruled out anything besides malevolence or self-interest. You didn't acknowledge the possibility of misguided compassion or anything of the sort.

Misguided compassion? The kind that specifically involves not giving anything to a homeless man?

That's pretty misguided, alright. It's like trying to help an old lady across the street... and dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Oops! Well you can't always hit what you're aiming for, right?

You can still do that pretty fast, if you manage it right. *thinks about relay racing teams* The guy would have to learn to hold his hand out just right and not flinch.
He had both hands on the sign by default. He took one hand off when I approached him to hand him the money.

If I said I want to harass the church in email form would it make me a bad person ?... yes. since Dakini said it's possible money was given, and that it just wasn't seen.

How do you know he wasn't actually made up of money?



Huh?

Misguided compassion? The kind that specifically involves not giving anything to a homeless man?

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about giving a homeless person food or water or socks or whatever they need as opposed to giving them money.

Nice strawman though.

BTW, how do you know that the people didn't give him money on the way to church?

I find this a little doubtful. I wouldn't assume that he stood there for a couple of hours holding the sign (it's not a big street, the only major foot traffic on a Sunday is people going and leaving church) or that he left and came back

I don't know, it's a cathedral basilica (or those two words were swapped)... St Peter's maybe?

Why does it matter?

If its the St peter's in *****, I called, They running a soup kitchen out back today(until midnight every Sunday, actually) and the man you gave change to has been disruptive and threatened violence. Father Greggory has asked the community not to give change to him as they are trying to get him to move a long after he has had his soup without involving the police.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about giving a homeless person food or water or socks or whatever they need as opposed to giving them money.

As expected, you're not actually talking about anything I've said; let alone making a real argument.

Nice strawman though.

Oh! You learned a new word! *claps*

He had both hands on the sign by default. He took one hand off when I approached him to hand him the money.

You're not supposed to hand a homeless man money, you're supposed to throw the coins onto the pavement and laugh as you watch hims scramble. Toss your head back, put your hands on your hips and let out a long belly-laugh. Then when he's collected some of the coins you kick him and step on his hand, and say, "You know, you're only going to buy drugs and alcohol with the money, so I'm actually doing you good right now!" Laugh again as you walk off, knowing that you've earned your place in Heaven.

You're not supposed to hand a homeless man money, you're supposed to throw the coins onto the pavement and laugh as you watch hims scramble. Toss your head back, put your hands on your hips and let out a long belly-laugh. Then when he's collected some of the coins you kick him and step on his hand, and say, "You know, you're only going to buy drugs and alcohol with the money, so I'm actually doing you good right now!" Laugh again as you walk off, knowing that you've earned your place in Heaven.

Or Congress. :p

As expected, you're not actually talking about anything I've said; let alone making a real argument.

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Not the emoticon rebuttal! Holy shit that changes everything!

The new Jesus also wants them to hate gays...damn dirty gays!!!

The new Jesus also wants them to hate gays...damn dirty gays!!!

What if they were HOMELESS GAYS!!!? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Not the emoticon rebuttal! Holy shit that changes everything!

What exactly was I supposed to be rebutting?

I was walking to the store to pick up some cat food. There are two churches on my street and as I passed one of them, mass was just letting out. There were a lot of people walking in the opposite direction carrying pieces of palm leaves, some of them tied into crosses et c. As I got closer to the church, I noticed that there was a guy standing near the walkway holding a sign that read "Hungry Please Help". From the time I spotted him (about a block) to the time I eventually felt sorry for him and gave him the $0.50 in change I had after passing him and turning around, not a single person carrying a palm leaf or generally leaving the church gave him anything. They all walked past as though there wasn't someone there.

I sort of expect this on a day to day basis, usually there are a lot of people begging for money and you can't give everyone some change (and often I don't have any change to give). However, these people had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them. You would think that they would stop and throw the guy some change (maybe he did too, which is why he picked that spot). Instead, as far as I could tell, the only person who gave him anything (though I hope not $0.50 isn't going to buy much) is someone randomly passing by who doesn't even believe in any of this.

This is exactly why Jesus came. That is why he rubbed so many people the wrong way. It worse than that in New York people will step over someone who has fallen on the sidewalk. It really is a shame. For what it is worth I always try to give something. I saw 2 homeless people on the subway, I was about to walk away when I stopped and turned and went back. I gave them $5. They never even asked. Do the best you can do everyday and thank God for your blessings. There, but for the Grace of God, go I.

This is exactly why Jesus came.

:eek:
That is why he rubbed so many people the wrong way.

:eek:

I was walking to the store to pick up some cat food. There are two churches on my street and as I passed one of them, mass was just letting out. There were a lot of people walking in the opposite direction carrying pieces of palm leaves, some of them tied into crosses et c. As I got closer to the church, I noticed that there was a guy standing near the walkway holding a sign that read "Hungry Please Help". From the time I spotted him (about a block) to the time I eventually felt sorry for him and gave him the $0.50 in change I had after passing him and turning around, not a single person carrying a palm leaf or generally leaving the church gave him anything. They all walked past as though there wasn't someone there.

I sort of expect this on a day to day basis, usually there are a lot of people begging for money and you can't give everyone some change (and often I don't have any change to give). However, these people had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them. You would think that they would stop and throw the guy some change (maybe he did too, which is why he picked that spot). Instead, as far as I could tell, the only person who gave him anything (though I hope not $0.50 isn't going to buy much) is someone randomly passing by who doesn't even believe in any of this.

WWJD? Oh, I don't know. How about, maybe, referring to the owner of the vineyard who said to men at the end of the day, "Why are you still standing about idle?" Then when they said, "Nobody has hired us," he said "Go work in my vineyard." Or maybe, referring to the man to whom a talent had been given and who had just buried it in the ground and not done anything with it, He would have told him, "You worthless lazy bum," and given the talent to the men who had been given talents, invested them and doubled their money. Or maybe, referring to the prodigal son, He would have told him to go back home to his family and apologize for wasting his inheritance. Or maybe, He would have told him to change his sign to "LAZY Please Help."

Maybe "these people [who] had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them" already give to charities that do actual useful work in helping the poor and unfortunate, rather than feeding the habits of street drunks and drug addicts. Maybe "these people" have actually given handouts to this particular panhandler before. Maybe "these people" are tired of being harrassed on the way out of church by people who think they'll rake in a big payday by laying a guilt trip on them.

Maybe some people on this board are always on the lookout for reasons to mock, ridicule and sneer at Christians.

Maybe some people on this board who claim to be unbelievers in any religion are just flat-out Christophobes who wouldn't have the guts to mock, ridicule and/or sneer at adherents to other creeds that shall remain nameless.

I am shocked to see Christians behave in a very unChristlike manner.

Shocked I tell you.

See how shocked I am? This is my shocked face.

Give money to charity in order to be sure it is spent on necessities rather than addiction.

Give money to charity in order to be sure it is spent on necessities rather than addiction.

Charities dont have the best track record of always spending money on what it should be spent on.

WWJD? Oh, I don't know. How about, maybe, referring to the owner of the vineyard who said to men at the end of the day, "Why are you still standing about idle?" Then when they said, "Nobody has hired us," he said "Go work in my vineyard." Or maybe, referring to the man to whom a talent had been given and who had just buried it in the ground and not done anything with it, He would have told him, "You worthless lazy bum," and given the talent to the men who had been given talents, invested them and doubled their money. Or maybe, referring to the prodigal son, He would have told him to go back home to his family and apologize for wasting his inheritance. Or maybe, He would have told him to change his sign to "LAZY Please Help."

Maybe "these people [who] had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them" already give to charities that do actual useful work in helping the poor and unfortunate, rather than feeding the habits of street drunks and drug addicts. Maybe "these people" have actually given handouts to this particular panhandler before. Maybe "these people" are tired of being harrassed on the way out of church by people who think they'll rake in a big payday by laying a guilt trip on them.

Maybe some people on this board are always on the lookout for reasons to mock, ridicule and sneer at Christians.

Maybe some people on this board who claim to be unbelievers in any religion are just flat-out Christophobes who wouldn't have the guts to mock, ridicule and/or sneer at adherents to other creeds that shall remain nameless.

First of all, I don't sneer.

Second of all, I am an equal opportunity mocker and ridiculer. *nod*

Charities dont have the best track record of always spending money on what it should be spent on.

Then find one that does, or start your own. You really don't know if those church goers are givers or not just because they don't want to risk having a face to face encounter that may turn unpleasant. Many homeless people have poor mental health and behave unpredictably.

WWJD? Oh, I don't know. How about, maybe, referring to the owner of the vineyard who said to men at the end of the day, "Why are you still standing about idle?" Then when they said, "Nobody has hired us," he said "Go work in my vineyard." Or maybe, referring to the man to whom a talent had been given and who had just buried it in the ground and not done anything with it, He would have told him, "You worthless lazy bum," and given the talent to the men who had been given talents, invested them and doubled their money. Or maybe, referring to the prodigal son, He would have told him to go back home to his family and apologize for wasting his inheritance. Or maybe, He would have told him to change his sign to "LAZY Please Help."

Maybe "these people [who] had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them" already give to charities that do actual useful work in helping the poor and unfortunate, rather than feeding the habits of street drunks and drug addicts. Maybe "these people" have actually given handouts to this particular panhandler before. Maybe "these people" are tired of being harrassed on the way out of church by people who think they'll rake in a big payday by laying a guilt trip on them.

Maybe some people on this board are always on the lookout for reasons to mock, ridicule and sneer at Christians.

Maybe some people on this board who claim to be unbelievers in any religion are just flat-out Christophobes who wouldn't have the guts to mock, ridicule and/or sneer at adherents to other creeds that shall remain nameless.

Or maybe, just maybe, they are all just hypocrits, like so many Christians are, who listen to all the stories, and only take away the bigoted, hateful things in the bible and forget all the bits about enternal love and giving, maybe theyre just the type of Christian that is only a 'sunday christian', if that.

Maybe theyre just bad Christians. You demonstrate rather well how common they are.

Maybe some people on this board are always on the lookout for reasons to mock, ridicule and sneer at Christians.


No one needs to 'lookout for reasons to mock, ridicule and sneer at Christians". There are enough people that are poor examples of Christlike that most people can find an example to mock, sneer at or ridicule before they left their street. Maybe their house.

Christians often need to be better Christians. I'm sorry if you find that an inconvenient truth.

No one needs to 'lookout for reasons to mock, ridicule and sneer at Christians". There are enough people that are poor examples of Christlike that most people can find an example to mock, sneer at or ridicule before they left their street. Maybe their house.

For example, whenever NM posts, its a case of the reason to mock and ridicule Christians coming to me:D

Christians often need to be better Christians. I'm sorry if you find that an inconvenient truth.

Exactly.

WWJD? Oh, I don't know. How about, maybe, referring to the owner of the vineyard who said to men at the end of the day, "Why are you still standing about idle?" Then when they said, "Nobody has hired us," he said "Go work in my vineyard." Or maybe, referring to the man to whom a talent had been given and who had just buried it in the ground and not done anything with it, He would have told him, "You worthless lazy bum," and given the talent to the men who had been given talents, invested them and doubled their money. Or maybe, referring to the prodigal son, He would have told him to go back home to his family and apologize for wasting his inheritance. Or maybe, He would have told him to change his sign to "LAZY Please Help."

Maybe "these people [who] had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them" already give to charities that do actual useful work in helping the poor and unfortunate, rather than feeding the habits of street drunks and drug addicts. Maybe "these people" have actually given handouts to this particular panhandler before. Maybe "these people" are tired of being harassed on the way out of church by people who think they'll rake in a big payday by laying a guilt trip on them.

Maybe some people on this board are always on the lookout for reasons to mock, ridicule and sneer at Christians.

Maybe some people on this board who claim to be unbelievers in any religion are just flat-out Christophobes who wouldn't have the guts to mock, ridicule and/or sneer at adherents to other creeds that shall remain nameless.

The Biblical stories you quoted had nothing to do with Laziness. They had to do with faith. Some are given a little and do a lot with. Some are given a lot and do nothing with it. The very people you are trying to protect should reach out to this person. None are so blind as those who will not see. Christianity is not about what is convenient it is about what is right and what is wrong.

Matthew 25:34-40 (Today's New International Version)

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

First of all, I don't sneer.

Second of all, I am an equal opportunity mocker and ridiculer. *nod*

Minus the Sneering, This ^^^ ;)



Find me a Religion, Ill mock it, and be damned to those who get angered, lol..

The Biblical stories you quoted had nothing to do with Laziness. They had to do with faith. Some are given a little and do a lot with. Some are given a lot and do nothing with it. The very people you are trying to protect should reach out to this person. None are so blind as those who will not see. Christianity is not about what is convenient it is about what is right and what is wrong.

Matthew 25:34-40 (Today's New International Version)

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

And then there was cake. :)

True.

:hail:

Good song. Sad song, but good song.

No one needs to 'lookout for reasons to mock, ridicule and sneer at Christians". There are enough people that are poor examples of Christlike that most people can find an example to mock, sneer at or ridicule before they left their street. Maybe their house.

Christians often need to be better Christians. I'm sorry if you find that an inconvenient truth.

It's ok. He has a well-known problem with Inconvenient Truths.

Maybe some people on this board are always on the lookout for reasons to mock, ridicule and sneer at Christians.

"Maybe"? it is so; sad, but true.

The Biblical stories you quoted had nothing to do with Laziness. They had to do with faith. Some are given a little and do a lot with. Some are given a lot and do nothing with it. The very people you are trying to protect should reach out to this person. None are so blind as those who will not see. Christianity is not about what is convenient it is about what is right and what is wrong.

Matthew 25:34-40 (Today's New International Version)

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

This^^

:hail:

Good song. Sad song, but good song.

True this.

It's ok. He has a well-known problem with Inconvenient Truths.

And this. :)

It seems to me that a lot of Christians are a lot bigger on the "God hates fags" bit then the eternal love and giving bit.

And most Christians also seem to forget this one: "Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'" Matthew 19:23-24

"Thou shalt buy drugs for the needy."

Crazy Christians are actually some of the most generous persons out there.

http://www.brassdragon.biz/salvation-army-window-label-e6412.jpg

In September '08, my husband and I took in an 18 year old boy who was homeless from back east. He was in the park down the street from us. He is still with us.

We are not rich - my husband is retired and I work part time. We have a one bedroom condo and "our kid" sleeps on the couch.

We are not religious, at all. I've never been and my husband is a recovering catholic.

Not to boast, just letting people know there are atheists who do good.

We also give to panhandlers and do not give a rat's ass what they do with the money.

Just sayin'... :)

We also give to panhandlers and do not give a rat's ass what they do with the money.

Do you call those who do not give to such deviants "ungenerous"?

Do you call those who do not give to such deviants "ungenerous"?

Just saying that we give without "a contract" - what others do is their thing.

*edit*

I don't call them deviants. They are people.

What others choose to give or not is not my concern...

Just saying that we give without "a contract" - what others do is their thing.

Many Christians give without "a contract". There is a Church in my town that offers free food and lodging. They give lodgers a booklet of propaganda, but force nothing else on them.

*edit*

I don't call them deviants. They are people.

Deviant people.

What others choose to give or not is not my concern...

Whoa! Then you are against Government welfare?

This is exactly why Jesus came. That is why he rubbed so many people the wrong way.

*giggles* I tell Christian to not kneel! But they just keep doing it, wanting Christ to come into them! Poor poor Christians...

As for me, I work in the Soup Kitchen about twice a month, and I give some change to homeless people in my area.

They give lodgers a booklet of propaganda, but force nothing else on them.


'Else' being operative, obviously.

"Thou shalt buy drugs for the needy."


I love how you just assume the money would have been used for drugs.

It seems to me that people are just looking for ways they can justify not giving money to the needy.

I was only trying to make the point that atheists can be good people, too.

I was talking about what each individual citizen gives or not. I live in Canada and don't mind paying more to have a fairly good social safety net for those in need.

I really dislike you blanketing all the down-trodden as "deviants." It is not true. Shit happens in the best of lives.

I was walking to the store to pick up some cat food. There are two churches on my street and as I passed one of them, mass was just letting out. There were a lot of people walking in the opposite direction carrying pieces of palm leaves, some of them tied into crosses et c. As I got closer to the church, I noticed that there was a guy standing near the walkway holding a sign that read "Hungry Please Help". From the time I spotted him (about a block) to the time I eventually felt sorry for him and gave him the $0.50 in change I had after passing him and turning around, not a single person carrying a palm leaf or generally leaving the church gave him anything. They all walked past as though there wasn't someone there.

I sort of expect this on a day to day basis, usually there are a lot of people begging for money and you can't give everyone some change (and often I don't have any change to give). However, these people had just sat around for two hours listening to stories about a man who supposedly sacrificed his life for others. Someone who would tell others to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, invite beggars in for supper et c and they carried physical reminders of this sort of talk outside the building with them. You would think that they would stop and throw the guy some change (maybe he did too, which is why he picked that spot). Instead, as far as I could tell, the only person who gave him anything (though I hope not $0.50 isn't going to buy much) is someone randomly passing by who doesn't even believe in any of this.

I'm not surprised. They are paying lip service to a magic sky man they really don't care about. I don't pay lip service to any magic sky man but I do my part to live up to the standards supposedly set by him.

'Else' being operative, obviously.

I misspoke: the booklet is not forced on them. I let the Church wash my car once, they did not demand a thing.

I misspoke: the booklet is not forced on them. I let the Church wash my car once, they did not demand a thing.

And when I went to the local 'breakfast' they held at a church near me, I found out there was an hour long service attached.

Anecdotes are awesome.

I really dislike you blanketing all the down-trodden as "deviants." It is not true. Shit happens in the best of lives.

It appears to be an attack on you, of some sort - probably because there's nothing to actually attack in the post.

It's an intellectually dishonest debate technique... but not worth losing sleep over.

I love how you just assume the money would have been used for drugs.

Considering how easy one can attain basic food and shelter in this society, yes I do.

It seems to me that people are just looking for ways they can justify not giving money to the needy.

I give plenty of money to charities: my local classical radio station, hospitalization for those in India, money to the poor, but through safe channels; persons on the street asking for money nearly always want to buy drugs, cigarettes, or alcohol.

Considering how easy one can attain basic food and shelter in this society, yes I do.

This is the part where I realized you have no idea what you're talking about. Kind of a red flag.

I was only trying to make the point that atheists can be good people, too.

I know...you evidently missed my Humanist thread a while back.

I was talking about what each individual citizen gives or not. I live in Canada and don't mind paying more to have a fairly good social safety net for those in need.

Good for you.

I really dislike you blanketing all the down-trodden as "deviants." It is not true. Shit happens in the best of lives.

I would be an idiot if I assumed any poor person was a "deviant". I am merely speaking of persons who do nothing but beg and buy drugs all day.

...persons on the street asking for money nearly always want to buy drugs, cigarettes, or alcohol.

Or food.

Considering how easy one can attain basic food and shelter in this society, yes I do.

I agree with Trostia's comment about this.

persons on the street asking for money nearly always want to buy drugs, cigarettes, or alcohol.

Source or youre full of shit/justifying not giving to the needy.

This is why I have a real issue with many of my Christian friends. Not only do I give to charities, I also help out people, whether that be by giving a homeless man my change, or giving up my seat to the elderly/pregnant/differently abled on the train. However, too many of my Christian friends speak long and loud about the example of Jesus and how atheists and agnostics like myself don't live in a Christlike manner, but seem completely ignorant about what Christ actually lived and preached.

This is the part where I realized you have no idea what you're talking about. Kind of a red flag.

Actually, I do know what I am talking about. I live in California, and while we do suffer from an alarming poverty rate, there is nothing difficult about getting food and lodging from the government or some church.

Of course, things might be drastically different where the OP lives, which I did not initially consider.

Actually, I do know what I am talking about. I live in California, and while we do suffer from an alarming poverty rate, there is nothing difficult about getting food and lodging from the government or some church.

Of course, things might be drastically different where the OP lives, which I did not initially consider.

I know youd have no problem here...

And I think thats prettymuch the polar opposite of California...

Actually, I do know what I am talking about. I live in California, and while we do suffer from an alarming poverty rate, there is nothing difficult about getting food and lodging from the government or some church.


How much time have you spent on the street?

How much time have you spent homeless, maybe drug-addicted, maybe alcoholic... maybe clinically ill in the head?

I'm just wondering - you talk about how easy it is... but I'd bet you're toeing the party line, rather than speaking from experience.

How much time have you spent on the street?

How much time have you spent homeless, maybe drug-addicted, maybe alcoholic... maybe clinically ill in the head?

I'm just wondering - you talk about how easy it is... but I'd bet you're toeing the party line, rather than speaking from experience.

Ive spent sometime homeless, Hurricane induced Slab and all that...

I mean, of course that was natural disaster related, but still....

Fortunately, MS is much better organized than Louisiana so we were able to get supplies easy enough...

Source or youre full of shit/justifying not giving to the needy.

I do give to the needy, just through proper charity services. Did you neglect noticing I said this, or did you just want my tax-deductions as a source?

I fear I have no statistics (I will look for some online). I have occasionally given money to those on the street before. But smell of alcohol, and empty cigarette boxes are and instant turn-off. I generally go into a market and buy food for such people. The last time I did that the guy just said "Aw, no. Fuck."

I totally support charity, just not giving away money to buy drugs. I know many cannot find jobs.

Actually, I do know what I am talking about. I live in California, and while we do suffer from an alarming poverty rate, there is nothing difficult about getting food and lodging from the government or some church.

I live in California too. How many homeless persons do you know? Have you yourself ever been homeless? For how long? Where? Why? See, you say things like "there is nothing difficult" which is plainly just not true. Food and shelter do not just grow on trees, and while there are avenues of support, they are not universal, they are certainly not "easy" by any stretch.

And furthermore you seem to have forgotten that many homeless have mental or physical disorders which further limit their opportunities and abilities. I suppose you might say it's easy to get medical care too? Yet you've already dismissed the entire lot as drug addicts and alcoholics.

Which struck me as rather naive, to say the least.

How much time have you spent on the street?

Not much, though my mother spent years under such conditions. She recently went back to that lifestyle.

How much time have you spent homeless, maybe drug-addicted, maybe alcoholic... maybe clinically ill in the head?

Those persons need medical attention, which is why my state funds health care and I donate to appropriate charities. Just giving alcoholics money is not good for anyone.

I'm just wondering - you talk about how easy it is... but I'd bet you're toeing the party line, rather than speaking from experience.

Speaking from watching my mother and listening to her recant her past experiences. "[P]arty line" is a stupid thing to say, because I support dramatic increases in welfare.

Ive spent sometime homeless, Hurricane induced Slab and all that...

I mean, of course that was natural disaster related, but still....

Fortunately, MS is much better organized than Louisiana so we were able to get supplies easy enough...
As you note, being made homeless due to a natural disaster is not the same as becoming homeless due to persistent poverty or drug addiction or mental illness.

Presumably, if you had your shit together enough to care for yourself before the hurricane hit, you would have the wherewithal to make good use of public assistance afterwards.

Unlike a person with an addiction or mental illness, or both. Such conditions tend to make it harder to get and keep one's shit together and to get it together again once it comes apart.

And of course, the kinds of public assistance programs that are available for disaster victims are different from the ones available to the poor, addicted and sick. There is no FEMA for mental illness, addiction or poverty. There are only state programs struggling with constant budget cuts and shortfalls, and private programs dependent on donations.

Not much, though my mother spent years under such conditions. She recently went back to that lifestyle.


So... not much means 'none'?


Those persons need medical attention, which is why my state funds health care and I donate to appropriate charities. Giving alcoholics money is not good for anyone.


If they ARE alcoholics, rather than that just being your judgment... and... it's good for them if they're hungry.


Speaking from watching my mother and listening to her recant her past experiences.

Paging Dr Freud?

I wouldn't have given them money, but I wouldn;t have ignored them. I'd have very gladly showed them where they could get food at no cost. Of course I am also wactive in helping the local Homeless Outreach group, so all I'd have to do is call them and someone would come get them...

I live in California too. How many homeless persons do you know? Have you yourself ever been homeless? For how long? Where? Why? See, you say things like "there is nothing difficult" which is plainly just not true. Food and shelter do not just grow on trees, and while there are avenues of support, they are not universal, they are certainly not "easy" by any stretch.

And furthermore you seem to have forgotten that many homeless have mental or physical disorders which further limit their opportunities and abilities. I suppose you might say it's easy to get medical care too? Yet you've already dismissed the entire lot as drug addicts and alcoholics.

Which struck me as rather naive, to say the least.

My mother has been, and is now homeless. I shall probably be sending her money soon.

Let me make this brief: I fully support giving money to charity, just through proper channels. Should I give a dollar to a man who may well spend the money on drugs, or should I give it to a foundation that makes sure the money feeds the starving?

My mother has been, and is now homeless. I shall probably be sending her money soon.

Let me make this brief: I fully support giving money to charity, just through proper channels. Should I give a dollar to a man who may well spend the money on drugs, or should I give it to a foundation that makes sure the money feeds the starving?

Man sitting there, hungry, before you - but you decide to tangle your dollar in red tape. If any of it gets to him, it'll take a week.

Hope he wasn't that hungry.

My mother has been, and is now homeless. I shall probably be sending her money soon.

Let me make this brief: I fully support giving money to charity, just through proper channels. Should I give a dollar to a man who may well spend the money on drugs, or should I give it to a foundation that makes sure the money feeds the starving?
You can do anything you like. Giving to established charities is certainly a good thing.

What you are being criticized for -- at least what I would criticize you for -- is blanket dismissing all the homeless as "deviants," blanket assuming that all homeless are addicts or alcoholics, that all of them will do nothing with money but drink it, shoot it, or smoke it. That just is not true.

You might say it's true of many homeless, but it is not true of all of them.

So... not much means 'none'?

Correct.



If they ARE alcoholics, rather than that just being your judgment...

The judgment of my nose.

and... it's good for them if they're hungry.


Certainly, if they spend the money on food.

Paging Dr Freud?

No, my mother is just a hypocritical idiot. She complains that the government would only give money to "illegals", but the moment she hits the street, she gets money. Though she regretted living on the street previously, she recently withdrew the feeling.

I called, They running a soup kitchen out back today(until midnight every Sunday, actually) and the man you gave change to has been disruptive and threatened violence. Father Greggory has asked the community not to give change to him as they are trying to get him to move a long after he has had his soup without involving the police.

I'm sorry, what part of "don't post about where I live" don't you understand?! Please remove the relevant information.

Also, I very much doubt your conversation took place. A perusal of the website showed no "Father Greggory" currently employed. Apparently there used to be one who worked there until January, but does not anymore. Thanks for coming out.

Even if this conversation did take place, why exactly should a man who is in need (i.e. going to a soup kitchen) be prohibited from asking for money (especially if the soup kitchen is only open one day a week)? I would hardly call someone standing out of the way of the flow of traffic quietly holding a sign "disruptive".

My mother has been, and is now homeless. I shall probably be sending her money soon.

Let me make this brief: I fully support giving money to charity, just through proper channels. Should I give a dollar to a man who may well spend the money on drugs, or should I give it to a foundation that makes sure the money feeds the starving?

It isn't one or the other. Should you give money to charity just to excuse yourself the responsibility of giving money to a man who maybe buys drugs with it? (And therefore maybe compelling him to continue panhandling, instead of his alternatives of prostitution and theft?)

Well, give to whoever you want, but it is simply foolish to assume someone you don't know is a drug addict.

My mother has been, and is now homeless. I shall probably be sending her money soon.

Let me make this brief: I fully support giving money to charity, just through proper channels. Should I give a dollar to a man who may well spend the money on drugs, or should I give it to a foundation that makes sure the money feeds the starving?

I used to struggle with issues like this. Am I just making his/her situation worse by giving? Recently I said I will give them the money and it is up to God to work out the details. I suppose if you are not a Christian then this hold no weight but then it would be up to the Fates or whatever.

You can do anything you like. Giving to established charities is certainly a good thing.

The fact that most do not makes me disgusted with mankind.

What you are being criticized for -- at least what I would criticize you for -- is blanket dismissing all the homeless as "deviants," blanket assuming that all homeless are addicts or alcoholics, that all of them will do nothing with money but drink it, shoot it, or smoke it. That just is not true.

I just felt like acting like a conservative asshole. I, in no way, believe all the homeless are drug addicts, I am just very skeptical. Deviant is a fun and snotty word.

You might say it's true of many homeless, but it is not true of all of them.

Of course not.

Then they could offer him dinner.

And they are probably right.

Been there, done that. Working as a publishing company assistant you make very little (my first job), but I saw this person every day on the corner looking for money... so I bought two coffees and two egg sandwiches one morning and offered them the extra coffee and sandwich.

They weren't that hungry, apparently.

I prefer to write a check to a soup kitchen or Salvation Army rather than hand out cash.

Correct.


Right. Argument from LACK OF experience is unusually non-compelling.


The judgment of my nose.


When I went to see "Ministry" at Rock City, some prick poured about a pint of cider over the balcony, and I caught, and subsequently wore, most of it for about the next 6 hours.

Living on the street often means being around alcohol, even if you don't drink it. It could easily mean ending up wearing alcohol. And I had luxuries most homeless people might lack - a shower, and a change of clothes.


Certainly, if they spend the money on food.


Which you pre-judge... they won't.


No, my mother is just a hypocritical idiot. She complains that the government would only give money to "illegals", but the moment she hits the street, she gets money. Though she regretted living on the street previously, she recently withdrew the feeling.

Google 'recant'. It's actually rather humourous.

Wow

It isn't one or the other. Should you give money to charity just to excuse yourself the responsibility of giving money to a man who maybe buys drugs with it? (And therefore maybe compelling him to continue panhandling, instead of his alternatives of prostitution and theft?)

Yes, I want to give my charity to certainties.

Well, give to whoever you want, but it is simply foolish to assume someone you don't know is a drug addict.

There is a good chance he is. Besides, many of you were calling Christians stingy, when many of the greatest of the world's charity associations are Christian in nature--it is one of the only redeeming aspects of the church.

Your fellows' generalization was no better than mine.

Been there, done that. Working as a publishing company assistant you make very little (my first job), but I saw this person every day on the corner looking for money... so I bought two coffees and two egg sandwiches one morning and offered them the extra coffee and sandwich.

They weren't that hungry, apparently.

I prefer to write a check to a soup kitchen or Salvation Army rather than hand out cash.

I donate time, not money. I have lots of time and little money. In 2 hours I helped a charity raise $300 for operations, 1 hour a day for 2 days over a period of 2 weeks.

Been there, done that. Working as a publishing company assistant you make very little (my first job), but I saw this person every day on the corner looking for money... so I bought two coffees and two egg sandwiches one morning and offered them the extra coffee and sandwich.

They weren't that hungry, apparently.

I prefer to write a check to a soup kitchen or Salvation Army rather than hand out cash.

Maybe not everyone accepts food from strangers. Being homeless means you have a (rather sensible) tendency to want to scrounge and hoard and preserve for later if at all possible. That's a good thing about money, as opposed to drinks offered by strangers.

Yes, I want to give my charity to certainties.



There is a good chance he is. Besides, many of you were calling Christians stingy, when many of the greatest of the world's charity associations are Christian in nature--it is one of the only redeeming aspects of the church.

Your fellows' generalization was no better than mine.

I never made a generalization about Christians and I don't have "fellows" nor am I a "many of you."

Google 'recant'. It's actually rather humourous.

"Though she regretted living on the street previously"...did you read that?

FWIW when I was homeless I didn't accept food from strangers and I wouldn't go to their house to work either.....safety reasons. I didn't beg for money much either though, being a woman it would be too easy to get picked up for solicitation. I was a scavenger mostly.

"Though she regretted living on the street previously"...did you read that?

What you said was "Speaking from watching my mother and listening to her recant her past experiences."

Obviously, the phrase you were ham-fistedly hammering the keyboard for was 'recount', which is why 'recant' was so funny.

Nice attempt at recovery - but I'd have admitted 'recant' was a cock-up, personally, rather than have to try to explain why my mother admitting she'd lied about her experiences... was evidence of what it's like to live on the street.

FWIW when I was homeless I didn't accept food from strangers and I wouldn't go to their house to work either.....safety reasons.

According to a few posters here, that is probably because you were just saving the money for drugs:eek:

I'm sorry, what part of "don't post about where I live" don't you understand?! Please remove the relevant information.
I bleeped out the location feel happy ?
Also, I very much doubt your conversation took place. A perusal of the website showed no "Father Greggory" currently employed. Apparently there used to be one who worked there until January, but does not anymore. Thanks for coming out.

So he used to work there keeps him from volunteering at the soup kitchen and answering the phone ??? You free to call and refute, the call will sound nicer then my voice over IP call I imagine.

Even if this conversation did take place, why exactly should a man who is in need (i.e. going to a soup kitchen) be prohibited from asking for money (especially if the soup kitchen is only open one day a week)?
I think it has something to do with he has a habit of yelling at people,disrupting services, and otherwise bothering the parishioners. The trying to feed him and get him away from the premises is due to his behavior.
To be honest I am now concerned for your safety since it appears you've given a mentally unhealthy individual money.
Though perhaps it would be nice to call a church and get their side before you decry them as Callous hypocrites, in this case it might save your life.

According to a few posters here, that is probably because you were just saving the money for drugs:eek:

I actually had a job while I was homeless, I used that money for drugs. I scavenged for food....and coffee.

Before you judge, think about this, if you were homeless wouldn't you want to escape for a bit?

Every single one of you that goes home after a long day and has a beer to "wind down" and flips channels on the television and then bemoans giving money to the man on the street because "he might buy booze" .... seriously, you buy booze now and you have a place to stay, you don't think you would want a freaking beer if you lived on the street?

What you said was "Speaking from watching my mother and listening to her recant her past experiences."

Obviously, the phrase you were ham-fistedly hammering the keyboard for was 'recount', which is why 'recant' was so funny.

Nice attempt at recovery - but I'd have admitted 'recant' was a cock-up, personally, rather than have to try to explain why my mother admitting she'd lied about her experiences... was evidence of what it's like to live on the street.

She did not lie, she just spoke of them negatively, and said she was ashamed. I might have used the word in the wrong way--perhaps I meant "she recanted her lifestyle"?

FWIW when I was homeless I didn't accept food from strangers and I wouldn't go to their house to work either.....safety reasons. I didn't beg for money much either though, being a woman it would be too easy to get picked up for solicitation. I was a scavenger mostly.

You live Texas, which I doubt provides adequate welfare to do its inhabitants.

Misguided compassion? The kind that specifically involves not giving anything to a homeless man?

That's pretty misguided, alright. It's like trying to help an old lady across the street... and dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Oops! Well you can't always hit what you're aiming for, right?

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about giving a homeless person food or water or socks or whatever they need as opposed to giving them money.

Nice strawman though.

Trostia, you're the one who characterized anyone who offered to buy a meal as being a selfish power-hungry asshole. Geniasis pointed out they might actually be compassionate people.

Of course, it's very easy to be judgmental of other people -- it means one doesn't even have to do anything oneself -- one can just fault others for what one perceives they have and haven't done, and feel superior to them, all without having to bother about doing anything about the situation oneself.

I actually had a job while I was homeless, I used that money for drugs. I scavenged for food....and coffee.

Before you judge, think about this, if you were homeless wouldn't you want to escape for a bit?

Every single one of you that goes home after a long day and has a beer to "wind down" and flips channels on the television and then bemoans giving money to the man on the street because "he might buy booze" .... seriously, you buy booze now and you have a place to stay, you don't think you would want a freaking beer if you lived on the street?

Wow, that is a good way of looking at it. I will put that in the memory bank.

The fact that most do not makes me disgusted with mankind.


We also give to an "established" charity - it's taken out of my pay cheque each month.

We also take in homeless animals... :D

She did not lie, she just spoke of them negatively, and said she was ashamed. I might have used the word in the wrong way--perhaps I meant "she recanted her lifestyle"?

Oy, whatever. I'm not gonna argue.

You want to use your mom's somewhat conflicted versions as evidence, knock yourself out. I doubt anyone will find it especially convincing.

I actually had a job while I was homeless, I used that money for drugs. I scavenged for food....and coffee.

Before you judge, think about this, if you were homeless wouldn't you want to escape for a bit?

Every single one of you that goes home after a long day and has a beer to "wind down" and flips channels on the television and then bemoans giving money to the man on the street because "he might buy booze" .... seriously, you buy booze now and you have a place to stay, you don't think you would want a freaking beer if you lived on the street?

Stop trying to escape and save up money for an apartment.

You live Texas, which I doubt provides adequate welfare to do its inhabitants.

I do not live in Texas.

You live Texas, which I doubt provides adequate welfare to do its inhabitants.

No she doesn't, she's just visiting... the poor thing.

Stop trying to escape and save up money for an apartment.

Um....yeah, I own a house now, thanks. However, have you ever been homeless?

You live Texas, which I doubt provides adequate welfare to do its inhabitants.

Smunkee lives in Texas?

Been there, done that. Working as a publishing company assistant you make very little (my first job), but I saw this person every day on the corner looking for money... so I bought two coffees and two egg sandwiches one morning and offered them the extra coffee and sandwich.

They weren't that hungry, apparently.

I prefer to write a check to a soup kitchen or Salvation Army rather than hand out cash.

My family were in Cairns once and a young girl came over to us. She was wearing filthy clothes (rather revealing in nature) and was skinny with greasy matted hair. She advised us that she was homeless, had just got off the bus and needed money for food and lodging. My mother and father gave her about $30. My father made the comment, "She's probably going to spend it on drugs or booze, by the looks of her." My mother agreed. We saw this girl a few minutes later as we were walking to a street vendor, in line at another eatery, buying herself food.

Just an anecdote that you can't judge all homeless people by the actions of a few, and that assumptions can be very, very flawed.

Talking to homeless people as a part of my volunteer work with my local council, many of them told me that they were embarrassed to be bought food, embarrassed to be offered food instead of money. They were ashamed of their situation, and at least wanted to hide that as much as possible by being able to purchase food without some "charitable" person hovering over them to make sure that's what they did, and let everyone in the place know what they were.

Just something to think about.

You live Texas, which I doubt provides adequate welfare to do its inhabitants.

I live in Texas, and that the way I like it. Our Governor even turned down federal money to have the federal pay for welfare benefits.

Smunkee lives in Texas?

Apparently not. But "what?" is close enough.

Trostia, you're the one who characterized anyone who offered to buy a meal as being a selfish power-hungry asshole. Geniasis pointed out they might actually be compassionate people.

I didn't characterize simply anyone offering to buy a meal, nor with those words.

People who assume that beggars are all drug addicts and thus refuse to give them a single penny might be swell people - but they're not exactly demonstrating any sense of compassion by that.

Stop trying to escape and save up money for an apartment.

Can't get an apartment - no proof of income...

Can't get a job - no proof of residency...

Smunkee lives in Texas?

No.

Can't get an apartment - no proof of income...

Can't get a job - no proof of residency...

Come with me to the Ghetto. They have these pay in advance weekly lease apartments. I think technically they register them as extended stay hotels. They are minimal furnished but perfect to help someone get a second start.

Smunkee lives in Texas?

I was going to tell him to maybe re-read that thread where she says she is just visiting...But felt it best for him to figure it out on his own, :p


But, its also a stereotype that is also not true, just because a state is controlled by Conservatives, doesnt mean its not charitable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi#Culture
Although the state has one of the lowest per capita income rates in the United States, Mississippians consistently rank as one of the highest per capita in charitable contributions.

Come with me to the Ghetto. They have these pay in advance weekly lease apartments. I think technically they register them as extended stay hotels. They are minimal furnished but perfect to help someone get a second start.

Pay in advance... Missed half the post, huh?

I was going to tell him to maybe re-read that thread where she says she is just visiting...But felt it best for him to figure it out on his own, :p


But, its also a stereotype that is also not true, just because a state is controlled by Conservatives, doesnt mean its not charitable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi#Culture

I remember a study where conservatives tend to earn less but donate more. and liberals tend to earn more and want the government to handle that for them.

I remember a study where conservatives tend to earn less but donate more. and liberals tend to earn more and want the government to handle that for them.

I remember a study where conservatives scuba-dive in jello but eat babies. and liberals tend to eat butterflies and shit rainbows.

Pay in advance... Missed half the post, huh?

I lived in one. you pay a week at a time you need 50 bucks for deposit and 150 each week and they don't require any info other then what you say your name is. Given you will hear gun shots at all hours of the night and be the only white person, other then the hooker doing business next door.

Can't get an apartment - no proof of income...

Can't get a job - no proof of residency...

Add to that no place to get mail, make or take a phone call. It is called downward spiral. I have never been homeless but I have been close.

Come with me to the Ghetto. They have these pay in advance weekly lease apartments. I think technically they register them as extended stay hotels. They are minimal furnished but perfect to help someone get a second start.

And this money to pay in advance? Where does this come from? Also, I'm staying at an extended stay hotel right now $85/night, I don't think the quarters people threw at me when I was homeless actually added up to pay for that. Maybe 1 night every 3 months, maybe.

*runs out of room full of attack dogs, shuts door on greed and death*


http://www.nwlacs.co.uk/images/pr_hounds_trespass_01.jpg
http://www.revistadiners.com.co/media/BOTERO45.jpg

And this money to pay in advance? Where does this come from? Also, I'm staying at an extended stay hotel right now $85/night, I don't think the quarters people threw at me when I was homeless actually added up to pay for that. Maybe 1 night every 3 months, maybe.

I didn't say you would get a second start at the ritz. A second chance comes at the most cockroach infested hell hole in town.

*runs out of room full of attack dogs, shuts door on greed and death*


http://www.nwlacs.co.uk/images/pr_hounds_trespass_01.jpg
http://www.revistadiners.com.co/media/BOTERO45.jpg

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/verger.jpg

I lived in one. you pay a week at a time you need 50 bucks for deposit and 150 each week...

So $200 up front, without a job.

I lived in one. you pay a week at a time you need 50 bucks for deposit and 150 each week and they don't require any info other then what you say your name is. Given you will hear gun shots at all hours of the night and be the only white person, other then the hooker doing business next door.

Once again....cant get a job, no proof of residency.

So, where do they get that $50 plus $150 a week.

Once again, youre talking crap.

Once again....cant get a job, no proof of residency.

So, where do they get that $50 plus $150 a week.

Once again, youre talking crap.

Get a job

I lived in one. you pay a week at a time you need 50 bucks for deposit and 150 each week and they don't require any info other then what you say your name is. Given you will hear gun shots at all hours of the night and be the only white person, other then the hooker doing business next door.

These are harder and harder to find in New York and a 3 state radius. Many have closed down. Not to mention once you get out there, because they are rarely in the city limits, how do you get back? Although yes this does work if you are at least employed.

Not exactly Club Med but better than a park bench.

Add to that no place to get mail, make or take a phone call. It is called downward spiral. I have never been homeless but I have been close.

A friend of ours was in that situation from age of about 15. When we first knew her, she was living in a car.

My family were in Cairns once and a young girl came over to us. She was wearing filthy clothes (rather revealing in nature) and was skinny with greasy matted hair. She advised us that she was homeless, had just got off the bus and needed money for food and lodging. My mother and father gave her about $30. My father made the comment, "She's probably going to spend it on drugs or booze, by the looks of her." My mother agreed. We saw this girl a few minutes later as we were walking to a street vendor, in line at another eatery, buying herself food.

Just an anecdote that you can't judge all homeless people by the actions of a few, and that assumptions can be very, very flawed.

Talking to homeless people as a part of my volunteer work with my local council, many of them told me that they were embarrassed to be bought food, embarrassed to be offered food instead of money. They were ashamed of their situation, and at least wanted to hide that as much as possible by being able to purchase food without some "charitable" person hovering over them to make sure that's what they did, and let everyone in the place know what they were.

Just something to think about.
Yes, because of course handing someone a bag of food as you walk out of a coffee shop is "hovering over them".

Jesus, how fucked up are you people that not only do you bitch about people NOT giving, but then bitch about those who do that THEY GIVE WRONG?

Get a job

Now you're just trolling.

Get a job

Are you being deliberatly obtuse?

Once again, for the third time...

CANT GET A JOB, NO PROOF OF RESIDENCY.

So, where do they get that $200?

Jesus, how fucked up are you people that not only do you bitch about people NOT giving, but then bitch about those who do that THEY GIVE WRONG?

Its funny. That seems awfully close to a flame. You know youd consider that actionable if anyone else did it.

As an aside...do you accept random food from strangers? No? Why should they?

I didn't say you would get a second start at the ritz. A second chance comes at the most cockroach infested hell hole in town.

See that? That's the point sailing over your head. Smunkee was actually suggesting that even such substandard accommodation can hardly be paid for by those with no job, no form of income, who are reduced to begging for spare change on the street to buy a cup of coffee.

I lived in one. you pay a week at a time you need 50 bucks for deposit and 150 each week and they don't require any info other then what you say your name is. Given you will hear gun shots at all hours of the night and be the only white person, other then the hooker doing business next door.
Why do you assume any of us, or all of us, are white?

So, where do they get that $200?

http://www.shadowbrookfarm.com/DCP03234sold.jpg

See that? That's the point sailing over your head. Smunkee was actually suggesting that even such substandard accommodation can hardly be paid for by those with no job, no form of income, who are reduced to begging for spare change on the street to buy a cup of coffee.

This is all my problem because ?

Is this thread about charity, or about fighting over charity?

Why do you assume any of us, or all of us, are white?

This is the internet your white maybe Asian.

This is all my problem because ?

I'll type it slow.

Because

it

is

evidence

your

'argument'

was

crap.

This is all my problem because ?

You talked about how easy it is to get a place of residency and proposed an idea in a very self rightous manner, and when you were shown that youre idea wasnt very well thought out and that you are, once again, talking crap and pretending you have knowledge and experiance in a field where you have absolutally none, you fall back to "I dont care anyway!"

Quit being a troll.

This is the internet your white maybe Asian.

7000 posts is a bit late to be making n00b posts.

You talked about how easy it is to get a place of residency and proposed an idea in a very self rightous manner, and when you were shown that youre idea wasnt very well thought out and that you are, once again, talking crap and pretending you have knowledge and experiance in a field where you have absolutally none, and you fall back to "I dont care anyway!"
[sic].
righteous*
experience*
absolutely*

If you live in a big city you can kind of find people who will let you stack boxes or refill shelves or wash dishes usually without too many questions asked. That is how immigrants do it. There is also yard work. You know you basically stand around at 7-Eleven waiting for something. Also strength in numbers try to team up with others.

Stop trying to escape and save up money for an apartment.
I just love the way people who know nothing about another person's situation feel so comfortable saying these dismissive bullshit things about what they should have done, which really have no practical effect except to excuse the speaker for not giving a shit. It's really hilarious. /sarcasm.

righteous*
experience*
absolutely*

Spelling nitpicks, the last refuge of the defeated.

If you dont have an arguement that isnt such crap, get out of the thread, troll.

Another way in construction sites. Usually if you are handy with a hammer or can work a wheelbarrow you can usually find a guy who will look the other way.

If you live in a big city you can kind of find people who will let you stack boxes or refill shelves or wash dishes usually without too many questions asked. That is how immigrants do it. There is also yard work. You know you basically stand around at 7-Eleven waiting for something. Also strength in numbers try to team up with others.

But natives shouldn't have to do those sorts of things its demeaning.
Funny how a bunch of immigrants with no proof of residency, no proof of income can avoid being homeless. But the native born slob can't.

so you really don't know... do you?

That's what I was thinking. Not to belittle Dakini, but unless she sat there and watched for an extended period of time there's no way to know. Yes, some people just suck no matter what religion they are. I personally buy them food or maybe even an umbrella at a roadside stand. I want to know they are getting some real value out of my charity.

7000 posts is a bit late to be making n00b posts.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/images/world2009users.png (http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm)
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2001/cb01ff02.html
The united state's African American population totaled an estimated 35.5 million as of Nov. 1, 2000. It comprised 13 percent of the total population.
So I'll guess around 15% for the United States Now, as I would guess that Mexico and Canada have much less African Americans as the US(due to not needing as many agriculture slaves in the Canada and plain guessing any who, lets just say that every African American in the US is connected to the internet that would be ~40 Million out of 251 Million which is right around 15% so as I'd guess the Europe and/or Asian Population of people of African descent are less than or at least around the same mark..

I'd say white or Asian is a pretty decent guess.

But natives shouldn't have to do those sorts of things its demeaning.
Funny how a bunch of immigrants with no proof of residency, no proof of income can avoid being homeless. But the native born slob can't.

There is a reason for that. Its because when youre a immigrant, they can pay you less then they legally are allowed because the immigrants dont know better/wont complain.

A native will.

Trollin' trollin' trollin'.

Come with me to the Ghetto. They have these pay in advance weekly lease apartments. I think technically they register them as extended stay hotels. They are minimal furnished but perfect to help someone get a second start.
Funnily enough, those don't exist everywhere. In NYC, they called them SRO's (Single Room Occupancy hotels). The city zoned them out of existence in the 90s to clear the way for development. The homeless population skyrocketed. Yeah, fuck those lazy homeless being cast out into the street by the government like that. Typical.

But natives shouldn't have to do those sorts of things its demeaning.
Funny how a bunch of immigrants with no proof of residency, no proof of income can avoid being homeless. But the native born slob can't.

Yeah mental illness seems to be a factor in most of the cases in our city. Of course drugs and alcohol don't help any.


I agree with you it can be done. Everyone could use a hand now and then.

Its funny. That seems awfully close to a flame. You know youd consider that actionable if anyone else did it.

As an aside...do you accept random food from strangers? No? Why should they?
Funny thing about how you think you know what I'd consider actionable. Of course, easier to attack the poster than the argument, isn't it?

Why shouldn't they, if they've no other choice? Why should you or anyone else dictate in what way someone else sacrifices a part of their own food or their own limited resources?

And I reiterate: how fucked up is it that people are being criticized for HOW they help others? First it was, "oh those hypocrites don't help!" and then, "Oh, they're on an ego trip," and "Oh they help the wrong way."

Funnily enough, those don't exist everywhere. In NYC, they called them SRO's (Single Room Occupancy hotels). The city zoned them out of existence in the 90s to clear the way for development. The homeless population skyrocketed. Yeah, fuck those lazy homeless being cast out into the street by the government like that. Typical.

That's what you want right more regulation ???
I am not a fan of zoning laws because they are designed to keep rich people's property value high. You cut the regulation if there is a demand for no questions asked low income housing someone is going to find a way to meet that demand.

Funnily enough, those don't exist everywhere. In NYC, they called them SRO's (Single Room Occupancy hotels). The city zoned them out of existence in the 90s to clear the way for development. The homeless population skyrocketed. Yeah, fuck those lazy homeless being cast out into the street by the government like that. Typical.

Agreed! Wow. That is rare. I didn't think they were still around in the city. I think a few exist still out of the city limits.

Once again....cant get a job, no proof of residency.

So, where do they get that $50 plus $150 a week.

Once again, youre talking crap.
Why, obviously, they get the money by giving $5 blowjobs in alleys. It's called getting a job.

Geez, I can't stand the kind of shit G&D is posting.

Yes, because of course handing someone a bag of food as you walk out of a coffee shop is "hovering over them".

I wasn't suggesting that this is what you did. However, I have seen many people do this for the sole purpose of (in their words), "making sure my charity doesn't go to waste."

QUOTE]Jesus, how fucked up are you people that not only do you bitch about people NOT giving, but then bitch about those who do that THEY GIVE WRONG?[/QUOTE]

I wasn't suggesting that they "give wrong". What I was attempting to do was highlight the state of mind that homeless people that I have worked with have that may also see them reject offers of food. Sorry for trying to educate people about the way that these people view the world and the apparently charitable actions of others.

Yeah mental illness seems to be a factor in most of the cases in our city. Of course drugs and alcohol don't help any.


I agree with you it can be done. Everyone could use a hand now and then.

If mental illness is the reason would these people not be better off in a hospital?

I personally buy them food or maybe even an umbrella at a roadside stand. I want to know they are getting some real value out of my charity.

That's your value though, not theirs.

Seems uppity, to me...

Why, obviously, they get the money by giving $5 blowjobs in alleys. It's called getting a job.

Geez, I can't stand the kind of shit G&D is posting.

Or go do what all the immigrants do who have no ID and barely know English. Stand out by the hard ware store and get picked up by a contractor for day labor. Speaking English with native level ability will get picked every time, unless the contractor speaks Spanish (more common these days).
Or go to a construction site for day labor.

Another one came to mind. If you find yourself homeless in NYC.

Bellhops, if your city has big hotels.

I know several straight off the boat got jobs no questions asked.

Why shouldn't they, if they've no other choice? Why should you or anyone else determine in what way someone else sacrifices a part of their own food or their own limited resources?
Being hungry doesnt make one suddenly stupid.
Again, I see a lot of criticism of people doing what they can to help out, and not a lot of evidence that those sitting in judgment have done absolutely anything?
Are you fucking kidding me? "Oh, you critisize my statement that if I were to give them money theyd just use it for drugs, which is a totally bullshit statement that I have no basis for aside from my own prejudice, but since you havent trumpeted what you do, you clearly do nothing!"

Really? Thats a weak statement.
And I reiterate: how fucked up is it that people are being criticized for HOW they help others? First it was, "oh those hypocrites don't help!" and then, "Oh they help the wrong way."
Good strawman. Too bad we're talking about two different kinds of people. Those in the Op are selfish, hypocritical idiots. Those who make statement such as "Theyll just spend the money on drugs!" are judgemental jerks.

No one cares that you bought the guy food. We care that some of you are making the idiotic statement "If I gave them cash instead of food those drug addicts would just spend it on drugs/liqour!"

Which is a totally bullshit statement that has no evidence behind it but prejudice.

Great lot of good that's doing anyone, really.
Oh, yes, you are so much better then us, with your prejudice and judgements about how the homeless are all alcoholics/drug addicts!

You dont know what the rest of us do. You dont know if we give to charity. Making nonsensical statements like "and not a lot of evidence that those sitting in judgment have done absolutely anything" is silly, and its an ignorant and down right stupid thing to say.

That's your value though, not theirs.

Seems uppity, to me...

The problem with buying food is if the homeless person has already eaten his fill that day its not like he has access to a refrigerator.

If mental illness is the reason would these people not be better off in a hospital?

You can't force them to stay. As soon as the can they leave. It is really a problem. You may have heard about that guy who pushed a lady in front of a subway train. He was just released and off his meds.

That's what you want right more regulation ???
I am not a fan of zoning laws because they are designed to keep rich people's property value high. You cut the regulation if there is a demand for no questions asked low income housing someone is going to find a way to meet that demand.
Oh gods, you are so full of crap at this point. You're not even trying anymore. I'm done with you.

I am so tired of people who fail to carry their argument and instead of just dropping it, switch over to troll mode. It's just a childish waste of everybody's time.

Oh gods, you are so full of crap at this point. You're not even trying anymore. I'm done with you.

I am so tired of people who fail to carry their argument and instead of just dropping it, switch over to troll mode. It's just a childish waste of everybody's time.

I highly recommend putting G&D on ignore. I can count the worthwhile contributions to a thread by him on one hand.

Why shouldn't they, if they've no other choice? Why should you or anyone else determine in what way someone else sacrifices a part of their own food or their own limited resources?

Again, I see a lot of criticism of people doing what they can to help out, and not a lot of evidence that those sitting in judgment have done absolutely anything?

Because perhaps those "sitting in judgment" (which I really don't think are the same people as you do) don't need to blather about how much they do to justify their own viewpoint.

And I reiterate: how fucked up is it that people are being criticized for HOW they help others? First it was, "oh those hypocrites don't help!" and then, "Oh they help the wrong way."

Great lot of good that's doing anyone, really.

I don't think anyone has criticised those giving food or other resources. Maybe Trostia. But I and others were merely trying to point out the reasons that homeless people might not want to accept food from strangers.

I personally could think of nothing more humiliating than standing in line beside someone and being treated like a small child. Having everyone in that queue know that I was being taken pity on, that I was a charity case. Having people applaud the generosity of someone, who is doing it, in the words of many people, both in this thread and in life, "so that their good deed doesn't go to waste."

Because perhaps those "sitting in judgment" (which I really don't think are the same people as you do) don't need to blather about how much they do to justify their own viewpoint.


No no, you saw what Kat said. Unless you sit there and trumpet how much you give, you clearly dont give anything.

They have no idea whatsoever, but they're going to make the assumption that that dirty bum was just going to do something that, apparently, he's not supposed to do. This assumption - by coincidence, of course - conveniently justifies their collective decision to not stick their fat fingers into their pockets and bring out a piece of change.

And even if he was, to the people who don't give money to the homeless on the above basis, I ask you - Is the idea of giving a conditional one? Sort of like a loan? You're investing in the guy's future so you don't want to make the wrong investment? You want to make a contract and set forth terms and conditions? Just so you can feel comfortable with giving something you don't even need to someone in a very obviously worse condition than you who is asking for it?

What if all of them had giving more in the offering to the Church moments prior? What if this neighborhood is experiencing especially bad recession, and there wasn't much for anyone to spare.

You are judging people, for maybe judging a homeless man. And so, you are worse than those you condemn, when you share their crime.

Oh gods, you are so full of crap at this point. You're not even trying anymore. I'm done with you.

I am so tired of people who fail to carry their argument and instead of just dropping it, switch over to troll mode. It's just a childish waste of everybody's time.

Because someone misused zoning regulation and ruined the low income housing in new york ? I didn't do it and I hate the people who did it. Cities come out far better when they have no zoning laws.

What if all of them had giving more in the offering to the Church moments prior?
Thats your defense? Really? You know where that money goes? The church's coffers. How does that help that guy?
What if this neighborhood is experiencing especially bad recession, and there wasn't much for anyone to spare.
The good Christian is supposed to give money anyway.

Ok, my question has been answered, its a thread about fighting over charity.

I bleeped out the location feel happy ?
So he used to work there keeps him from volunteering at the soup kitchen and answering the phone ??? You free to call and refute, the call will sound nicer then my voice over IP call I imagine.

I'm still doubtful of your story, especially since their website doesn't mention a soup kitchen (they do mention a food bank, which is different) and I have not seen any evidence of such a soup kitchen in the back of the church.

I think it has something to do with he has a habit of yelling at people,disrupting services, and otherwise bothering the parishioners. The trying to feed him and get him away from the premises is due to his behavior.
To be honest I am now concerned for your safety since it appears you've given a mentally unhealthy individual money.

Please, there are more mentally unhealthy people in this town than a harmless guy holding a sign who thanked me for stopping.

Though perhaps it would be nice to call a church and get their side before you decry them as Callous hypocrites, in this case it might save your life.

I never said that the church was hypocritical. I said that its parishioners clearly failed to take home any messages and failed to act in a way consistent with the teachings of their saviour.

I wasn't suggesting that this is what you did. However, I have seen many people do this for the sole purpose of (in their words), "making sure my charity doesn't go to waste."


I wasn't suggesting that they "give wrong". What I was attempting to do was highlight the state of mind that homeless people that I have worked with have that may also see them reject offers of food. Sorry for trying to educate people about the way that these people view the world and the apparently charitable actions of others.
Actually, I can completely understand why homeless people would refuse to take food from strangers. Little kids are told not to take candy from strangers, but all of a sudden, if you're poor, you're supposed to trust that someone you've never seen before is not a murderous, poisoning lunatic?

In NYC, I knew of homeless people who had regular routes -- streets they would scavenge, beg and sleep on. Along those routes, they got to know the delis, the diners, the regular workers, cops, etc, around them. They would always accept free food from those people, because they knew them. But strangers? In a city where there were upwards of 2000 murders a year, and the homeless were routinely targeted for assault and abuse? That would be stupid.

No one cares that you bought the guy food. We care that some of you are making the idiotic statement "If I gave them cash instead of food those drug addicts would just spend it on drugs/liqour!"

Which is a totally bullshit statement that has no evidence behind it but prejudice.


Oh, yes, you are so much better then us, with your prejudice and judgements about how the homeless are all alcoholics/drug addicts!

Please, please, tell me where I said homeless people were addicts or drunks. I want to know exactly where I said that, since I am so prejudiced. Because that's a pretty stupid thing to attribute to someone who hasn't said it.

I'll wait.

Please, please, tell me where I said homeless people were addicts or drunks. I want to know exactly where I said that, since I am so prejudiced. Because that's a pretty stupid thing to attribute to someone who hasn't said it.

I'll wait.

Been there, done that. Working as a publishing company assistant you make very little (my first job), but I saw this person every day on the corner looking for money... so I bought two coffees and two egg sandwiches one morning and offered them the extra coffee and sandwich.

They weren't that hungry, apparently.


Its pretty obvious what youre implying with the bolded. They didnt want your food, so clearly they wanted the money for booze.

It sucks that we actually remember what you write, huh?

Another one came to mind. If you find yourself homeless in NYC.

Bellhops, if your city has big hotels.

I know several straight off the boat got jobs no questions asked.
Hotel workers have a union. The SEIU. They represent lots of immigrant and migrant workers all over North America. Migrants, because many hotels and tourism businesses use migrant workers who follow the jobs that shift around the continent seasonally. Those Mexicans who don't speak a word of English the NYC hotels? They are union members.

Get a job

This is the internet your white maybe Asian.

greed and death, if you're trying to be funny, you're not.
Stop trolling.

Actually, I can completely understand why homeless people would refuse to take food from strangers. Little kids are told not to take candy from strangers, but all of a sudden, if you're poor, you're supposed to trust that someone you've never seen before is not a murderous, poisoning lunatic?

In NYC, I knew of homeless people who had regular routes -- streets they would scavenge, beg and sleep on. Along those routes, they got to know the delis, the diners, the regular workers, cops, etc, around them. They would always accept free food from those people, because they knew them. But strangers? In a city where there were upwards of 2000 murders a year, and the homeless were routinely targeted for assault and abuse? That would be stupid.
Then when you give food give something in a sealed package??

You can't force them to stay. As soon as the can they leave. It is really a problem. You may have heard about that guy who pushed a lady in front of a subway train. He was just released and off his meds.
There's also the problem that in the 1980s, the federal government decided to stop funding public hospitals for mental illness, forcing virtually all state-run facilities to shut down (as they were dependent on federal tax funding), pretty much all at the same time. That was another sudden skyrocket of the homeless population in NYC, and all of the new ones suffering mental illness and having no support system. Yeah, fuck them, they should all have gotten jobs after being abandoned by the government.

Hm... Interesting pattern developing. The government seems to manufacture homeless people.

Anyway, the point is, not only can you not force a person to stay in care unless you can manage to get them involuntarily committed, even if you could, there is nowhere to keep them.

What if all of them had giving more in the offering to the Church moments prior? What if this neighborhood is experiencing especially bad recession, and there wasn't much for anyone to spare.

Maybe there's a dog that loves homework, and it ate everybody's homework at once!

But considering how prevalent and forthcoming the "they will probably buy drugs/alcohol with the money" meme is popping up in this thread alone, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that it is a factor in the observed behavior.

You are judging people, for maybe judging a homeless man. And so, you are worse than those you condemn, when you share their crime.

I don't negatively stereotype the homeless in order to justify not giving money to them, so no.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/images/world2009users.png (http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm)
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2001/cb01ff02.html

So I'll guess around 15% for the United States Now, as I would guess that Mexico and Canada have much less African Americans as the US(due to not needing as many agriculture slaves in the Canada and plain guessing any who, lets just say that every African American in the US is connected to the internet that would be ~40 Million out of 251 Million which is right around 15% so as I'd guess the Europe and/or Asian Population of people of African descent are less than or at least around the same mark..

I'd say white or Asian is a pretty decent guess.
Why are you assuming everyone on this forum is American?

There's also the problem that in the 1980s, the federal government decided to stop funding public hospitals for mental illness, forcing virtually all state-run facilities to shut down (as they were dependent on federal tax funding), pretty much all at the same time. That was another sudden skyrocket of the homeless population in NYC, and all of the new ones suffering mental illness and having no support system. Yeah, fuck them, they should all have gotten jobs after being abandoned by the government.

Hm... Interesting pattern developing. The government seems to manufacture homeless people.

But...but...shouldnt the private sector and charities been better then the government's programs? At least thats what people seem to want you to believe.

Seems like, however, when you get rid of the government systems, homelessness increased. Huh. So much for how superior private charities are.

I'm still doubtful of your story, especially since their website doesn't mention a soup kitchen (they do mention a food bank, which is different) and I have not seen any evidence of such a soup kitchen in the back of the church.

Well call or go over there. Rather then just talk behind their back.


Please, there are more mentally unhealthy people in this town than a harmless guy holding a sign who thanked me for stopping.

Ted Bundy was a charismatic all American boy 99% of the time.
1% of the time he raped and killed women.
The danger is always from the 1% of the time.
You have not seen him 100% of the time.



I never said that the church was hypocritical. I said that its parishioners clearly failed to take home any messages and failed to act in a way consistent with the teachings of their saviour.

As you see them. They might view that they gave money to their church so the church can help take care of him. More over seems their priesthood is teaching them to be weary of this one man.

Ted Bundy was a charismatic all American boy 99% of the time.
1% of the time he raped and killed women.
The danger is always from the 1% of the time.
You have not seen him 100% of the time.

What?

Ted Bundy was a sociopath. His danger was present more then 1% of the time.

Do you even have an arguement?

If mental illness is the reason would these people not be better off in a hospital?

Hospitals don't always deal with mental illnesses (especially if they aren't really extreme). There are halfway houses, but there aren't enough to help everyone. Same goes with homeless shelters.

Then when you give food give something in a sealed package??
You mean like junk food? As opposed to the soup full of meat and vegetables they could buy if you gave them money?