NationStates Jolt Archive


The Nazi Regime.

The imperian empire
04-04-2009, 13:47
Warning, controversial thinking and a very long post here.

Ok, I am going to ask two questions.

1, Was the Nazi state chaotic?
2, Was Hitler a weak dictator?

There is no right or wrong here, as there is no way to prove of disprove this. There are 4 major schools of thought regarding these two questions.

Intentionalist, Structuralist/Functionalist, Kershaw 3rd way, and Sonderweg.

I will explain them under here, I have tried to make it easy and as short as possible.

Intentionalists believe:

Hitler was Central to the regime. His personality drives the Nazi ideology and he is a key figure whom determines the formation of Nazi Germany.
The infighting and “divide and rule” within the regime and his henchmen was deliberate to keep overall control.

Hitler was a key influence and made the big decisions.
Norman Rich, “The point cannot be emphasised too strongly. Hitler was the master in the Third Reich.” Intentionalists do not argue the administrative chaos, but believe that it is deliberate. Infighting was encouraged and success we dependent on this.
Hitler led German people with his prestige, rode on popularity.

“No subordinate of Hitler ever imposed his will, against the wishes of the Fuehrer.” “Any obstacle to Hitler’s will was removed.”
Hitler encouraged chaos within the Nazi state with the creation of more power hungry departments. Intentionalists strongly DENY that the failings of the economy limited Hitler. Hitler had planned his programme since the early 1920’s and his unwavering ideology was manifested in Nazi Germany policy. Albert Speer, Hitler was an “inexplicable demonic
figure.”

Intentionalists also believe that the Holocaust was part of the master plan. They also agree with Sonderweg, (see below) “Sonderweg”
Lucy Davidowicz, “definitely had plans for the Holocaust by 1924.”
They believe that German opinion was against Jews, and they do not underestimate the important of Hitler and Nazi ideology. Intentionalists also argue that the chaos of the polycratic state was intentional in order to keep control. Hitler did not seem to be causing problems; therefore he rode on an increasingly big wave of popularity whilst the blame was pineed on his henchmen.

Access to the Fuehrer was vital, e.g., Himmler and Goering, and on the other hand, Darre. Obstacles that became problems were removed instantly and without problems, e.g. the Night of Long Knives in 1934.

Hitler's “authoritarian anarchy” was completely intentional.

Structuralists believe:

Also consider Hitler’s role but by splitting his power between areas he limited himself. Nazi regime evolved from circumstance and Hitler was indecisive and swayed by his henchmen. Hitler separated himself from the day to day running of the Nazi state, he was a "lazy ruler" only dealing with decisions on foreign policy, such as fighting the war.

Hans Mommsen, “Hitler was in some ways a ‘weak dictator’.”
Structuralists stress the Chaotic State idea. At beginning Hitler appeased elites within Germany. Leading Nazi officials held power not Hitler, as he is described as an inactive leader. Hitler was strictly limited by the German economy, military rearmament was breaking the economy.

Tim Mason, time for war was bought forward because of stresses on the economy. Brozat, focuses on the “administrative anarchy” Hitler’s inability to lead is natural. He loses control. Brozat also believes in Social Darwinism, the policy of survival of the fittest within the Nazi regime.

Mommsen, Hitler was a ”propagandist” his ideology was more influencing that his plans. “Hitler as just one extreme element of the malevolence that was Nazi Germany.” Structuralists do not deny Hitler’s centrality to the regime. Mommsen, “Was in some ways a weak dictator.”

Structuralists think that the order for the Holocaust came from lower echelons of the Nazi government, there was no written Fuhrer order and they agree that the Nazi state was Chaotic which supports this.

Structuralists believe in the “Veneer of unity” when describing the Nazi state. As under the seemingly smooth surface, they argue that it was chaos.

Kershaw Believes

Hitler’s power came from ‘charismatic domination.’ He had no effective opposition. He was able to generate an environment where those under him were all “working towards the Fuhrer.” Kershaw says thats Hitler did not get involved in the running of Nazi Germany. Hitler preferred personal loyalty above all but this made him a prisoner of his own ideas.
Kershaw analyses the nature of Hitler’s power, how he gained and used it. And how he was given free reign. Kershaw came up with the thesis of “Working towards the Fuehrer.” and focuses on Max Webbers “charismatic leadership.”

Kershaw believes Hitler to be a great opportunist, basically, he got lucky. His effective usage of propaganda was also vital.

Kershaw thinks that Hitler lacked a master plan, but was the driving force behind anti Semitism. The Holocaust idea came from both above and below. “Cumulative radicalisation.” The Nazi regime was run around the ‘Hitler Cult.’ Where even day to day Germans idolised him. Kershaw has also written that the Holocaust came as a shock to even high up Nazi's, Goebbels was surprised by the plans for the Holocaust. “The Fuehrer’s prophecy is coming true in a most terrible way.”

Kershaw stresses the difference of anti Semitism between the Nazis and the regular German public and believes Hitler to be an ‘unperson’ devoid of the ‘negative greatness’ Historian Fest describes him as.

“The road to Auschwitz was paved with indifference, not hatred’

All agree that Hitler encouraged anti-Semitism.

Sonderweg:

Sonderweg, or special path, is the idea that there is a path leading from the unification of Germany, through Bismarck, the Kaiser and on to Hitler.

What I think:

Hitler was not a weak dictator, his role was very central. It can be said the Nazi state was the Hitler state. This is supported by Intentionalists views. However when compared to Stalin, Hitler is clearly weaker and had a lot less control over the Nazi state that Stalin and the Soviet Union. They are strong to varying degrees. This is supported by Structuralists views.

Both sides and Kershaw agree that no one has held power the way Hitler had.

“The willingness and indeed eagerness, of Germans to “work toward the Fuehrer,” This was one of the greatest strengths of Hitler’s dictatorship. But by leading to confusion, disorder, and inefficiency, it was also one of its greatest weaknesses.”

I am an Intentionalist. Although I cannot clear cut my answer, I think Hitler was a strong dictator and the chaotic state was deliberate. However I do understand and agree with some Structuralist arguments.

So, NSG, now you have read all this, answer the 2 questions. Poll coming.
No Names Left Damn It
04-04-2009, 13:59
Booooring.
SaintB
04-04-2009, 14:11
Hitler was both evil, and insane, he was also smart. His government worked exactly how he wanted it to.
Accrylia
04-04-2009, 14:26
No thought put into this at all was there
Hitler was an idiot He ruined Germany's economy by grossly rearming the Wehrmacht.
It seems to me that the only idiots who think hitler was an effective leader are gits like you
i.e. English and American Hill-billy's
You'd think the human race would have evolved to a level of intellegence where this wasn't possible but here you go.
YOUR ENGLISH NOT F***ING GERMAN WAKE UP YOU STOPPED HITLER IN THE FIRST PLACE
SaintB
04-04-2009, 14:28
No thought put into this at all was there
Hitler was an idiot He ruined Germany's economy by grossly rearming the Wehrmacht.
It seems to me that the only idiots who think hitler was an effective leader are gits like you
i.e. English and American Hill-billy's
You'd think the human race would have evolved to a level of intellegence where this wasn't possible but here you go.
YOUR ENGLISH NOT F***ING GERMAN WAKE UP YOU STOPPED HITLER IN THE FIRST PLACE

Who are you flaming exactly?

BTW, you misspelled intelligence.
The imperian empire
04-04-2009, 14:31
No thought put into this at all was there
Hitler was an idiot He ruined Germany's economy by grossly rearming the Wehrmacht.
It seems to me that the only idiots who think hitler was an effective leader are gits like you
i.e. English and American Hill-billy's
You'd think the human race would have evolved to a level of intellegence where this wasn't possible but here you go.
YOUR ENGLISH NOT F***ING GERMAN WAKE UP YOU STOPPED HITLER IN THE FIRST PLACE

Its a very popular historical debate. I in no way condone Hitler. You should stop being so ignorant and start leaning why stuff happens instead of sticking your poxy ill informed opinions where they aren't wanted.
Wanderjar
04-04-2009, 14:41
No thought put into this at all was there
Hitler was an idiot He ruined Germany's economy by grossly rearming the Wehrmacht.
It seems to me that the only idiots who think hitler was an effective leader are gits like you
i.e. English and American Hill-billy's
You'd think the human race would have evolved to a level of intellegence where this wasn't possible but here you go.
YOUR ENGLISH NOT F***ING GERMAN WAKE UP YOU STOPPED HITLER IN THE FIRST PLACE


I am actually quite proud of being a hillbilly thank you very much, my family to the letter come from the hills in Kentucky. I find it quite rude for you to insinuate that we are somehow of a lesser intelligence, when most of my family has both attained great wealth (one being a multi-billionaire) and no shortage of notoreity (General George S. Patton, my cousin is a reknown neuro-surgeon, etc).
Wanderjar
04-04-2009, 14:42
Who are you flaming exactly?

BTW, you misspelled intelligence.

pwnd.
SaintB
04-04-2009, 14:43
pwnd.

I think it was a drive by.
Intestinal fluids
04-04-2009, 14:54
I am actually quite proud of being a hillbilly thank you very much, my family to the letter come from the hills in Kentucky. I find it quite rude for you to insinuate that we are somehow of a lesser intelligence, when most of my family has both attained great wealth (one being a multi-billionaire) and no shortage of notoreity (General George S. Patton, my cousin is a reknown neuro-surgeon, etc).

Well to be fair, there are hills in Kentucky and there are hills in Kentucky. Some have wealthy manors and some give the Appalachians in West Virginia a run for their money. If you dont stumble across an elderly man at the general store addled from 50 years of moonshine you havnt gone far enough.
Rambhutan
04-04-2009, 16:29
So Hitler was a hillbilly, I didn't know that? Explains a lot though.
Aresion
04-04-2009, 16:40
I'm an intentionalist, but Kershaw was half right. Hitler was very powerful as dictator, but a lot of that came through charisma. However, I also believe Hitler didn't care about the authoritarian anarchy. He just wanted to kill the non-aryans, after that, it didn't matter much.
Forsakia
04-04-2009, 16:44
I lean towards Kershaw, Hitler was a strong dictator who did not dictate, but had people work towards what they thought his vision was and trying to curry favour with him. Then doling out power chaotically based on that.
Risottia
04-04-2009, 17:07
I find it quite rude for you to insinuate that we are somehow of a lesser intelligence, when most of my family has both attained great wealth (one being a multi-billionaire) and no shortage of notoreity (General George S. Patton, my cousin is a reknown neuro-surgeon, etc).

Nothing against you personally, but your post here is made of fail.

Being rich =/=> being intelligent. (proof: Berlusconi)
Being notorious =/=> being intelligent. (proof: football players)
Having rich relatives =/=> being intelligent. (proof: Paris Hilton)
Having a neurosurgeon relative =/=> being intelligent.
Having a notorious parent =/=> being intelligent.
Misspelling "notoriety" =/=> being intelligent, either.

I don't think you want to walk the same way of Valent*whatever*.
Ring of Isengard
04-04-2009, 17:22
My eyes hurt.
Skallvia
04-04-2009, 17:27
No thought put into this at all was there
Hitler was an idiot He ruined Germany's economy by grossly rearming the Wehrmacht.
Actually, you might want to look into that, he did pull Germany out of the Great Depression, although Ill be the first to tell you that the economy doing well =/= good leadership....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Economy_and_culture


It seems to me that the only idiots who think hitler was an effective leader are gits like you
i.e. English and American Hill-billy's
You'd think the human race would have evolved to a level of intellegence where this wasn't possible but here you go.
YOUR ENGLISH NOT F***ING GERMAN WAKE UP YOU STOPPED HITLER IN THE FIRST PLACE
Now, Im not sure who you're talking to however Im not sure who's English you are talking about in this situation...

Now, If you are talking about the US, then, I suggest you peruse this as to the numbers of Americans with German Ancestry...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans

German Americans (German: Deutschamerikaner) are citizens of the United States of German ancestry, with traditions and self-identity based on German language and culture. They currently form the largest self-reported ancestry group in the United States, accounting for 49 million people, or 17% of the U.S. population.
The US of Germany
04-04-2009, 17:39
I believe that Hitler, was right in what he was doing, apart from killing Jews and disabled people. I believe very much in what Hitler was doing. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT KILLING JEWS AND DISABLED IS RIGHT BUT DO HOWEVER BELIEVE THAT HITLER'S RULING OF GERMANY WAS CORRECT AND MY NATIONSTATE IS RUN IN SUCH A WAY TO THE CLOSEST I CAN ACHIEVE TO HITLER'S WAY.

Heil Der Furher
(Dictator of the Us Of Germany)
Yootopia
04-04-2009, 17:39
Looks like AQA Modern History homework help in the run-up to the post-Easter coursework deadline.
Anarchic Conceptions
04-04-2009, 17:48
Looks like AQA Modern History homework help in the run-up to the post-Easter coursework deadline.

Indeed.

That was my guess as soon as I saw the poll choices. Tempted to put TL;dr for the OP, but I think I have already read many times before :)
The imperian empire
04-04-2009, 17:58
Looks like AQA Modern History homework help in the run-up to the post-Easter coursework deadline.

Unit 6 exam actually :P
Yootopia
04-04-2009, 17:59
Unit 6 exam actually :P
I got 118/120 UCAS for that one. Boo fuckin ya.
Ring of Isengard
04-04-2009, 18:08
I believe that Hitler, was right in what he was doing, apart from killing Jews and disabled people. I believe very much in what Hitler was doing. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT KILLING JEWS AND DISABLED IS RIGHT BUT DO HOWEVER BELIEVE THAT HITLER'S RULING OF GERMANY WAS CORRECT AND MY NATIONSTATE IS RUN IN SUCH A WAY TO THE CLOSEST I CAN ACHIEVE TO HITLER'S WAY.

Heil Der Furher
(Dictator of the Us Of Germany)

Are you a crazy person?
Nice Magical Hats
04-04-2009, 18:29
Are you a crazy person?

Need you ask?
Geniasis
04-04-2009, 18:45
Are you a crazy person?

To be fair he pretty much just stated that "Hitler was an OK guy, minus the whole Holocaust thing" which I guess you could argue pretty well.

That first step's a doozy though.
The imperian empire
04-04-2009, 18:50
I got 118/120 UCAS for that one. Boo fuckin ya.

Pass this and I get into Canterbury. :)