NationStates Jolt Archive

I was having an argument with my friend today about god. There was no way that he could prove that god existed, but there was also no way that I could prove he didn't. He kept using the lame "the bible proves god exists" argument. I was wondering if any of you could prove that god exists or not.

you cant prove that god exists or doesnt exist because you have no real definition of god.

if you can settle on exactly what god is, you can start working on a proof.

Another god thread. Proof that if god exists, she hates us.

Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a being coming into existence with the power to create a universe and stock it with life approaches 1.

I will say this: The creation of the universe is a puzzling thing, and it is possible that some entity with power beyond the comprehension of present-day science made it.

However, that entity would not be 100% benevolent--at least not in the human sense of the of the word. And it is not that blatant creature from the Bible.

If God existed - as per Judeo-Christian/Islamic theory (I lump the three together because it is really the same God) - he would in theory not allow for us to question his existence.

you cant prove that god exists or doesnt exist because you have no real definition of god.

if you can settle on exactly what god is, you can start working on a proof.

The Christian god.

Another god thread. Proof that if god exists, she hates us.

http://www.northernsun.com/images/imagethumb/God%20Is%20Coming%20And%20Is%20She%20Pissed%20Bumper%20Sticker%20(5708).jpg

Please do not kill us, Neesika! :hail:

There is no proof or disproof of gods existence, thus belief in any form of deity is a matter of faith - simple answer *nod*

Or better put by Douglas Adams:
"I refuse to prove I exist, says God, because proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing."

If God existed - as per Judeo-Christian/Islamic theory (I lump the three together because it is really the same God), he would in theory not allow for us to question his existence.

Yes, in the Judeo-Christian/Islamic sense, I agree.

Another god thread. Proof that if god exists, she hates us.

She?

Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a clown coming into existence with the power to create a universe and stock it with life approaches 1.
Fixed.

Only if he was the egotistical prick we like to think of him as.

That goes against the Christian teaching that God loves us and only punishes us because he's a loving parent who doesn't want us to sin... :tongue:

*goes to get popcorn*

/will return in 200+ pages

The Christian god.
the christian god exactly as he is described in the bible? with all the .....not true stuff...the times when god couldnt do what he set out to do.. .with all the changing of his mind?

or the christian god as imagined but not as described in the bible where when you pin down "there was no world-wide flood" or "heaven doesnt exist in the physical plane of existence" you change your definition of what god is?

The Christian god.

The all-loving one that allows evil to repeatedly triumph in the world, and then sadistically lets those who practice it go to Hell for eternity? Not a chance.

*goes to get popcorn*

/will return in 200+ pages

*steals your popcorn and makes it an offering*

Here, God, if you exist, you can have this popcorn!

She?

Yes, you read that correctly.

*steals your popcorn and makes it an offering*

Here, God, if you exist, you can have this popcorn!

Fine, but she's not getting the butter topping :tongue:

the christian god exactly as he is described in the bible? with all the .....not true stuff...the times when god couldnt do what he set out to do.. .with all the changing of his mind?

or the christian god as imagined but not as described in the bible where when you pin down "there was no world-wide flood" or "heaven doesnt exist in the physical plane of existence" you change your definition of what god is?
God- if he exists is a prick.

Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a being coming into existence with the power to create a universe and stock it with life approaches 1.

I am unconvinced, that surely just says "over a long enough time frame, the impossible is bound to happen." Besides, if it took a trillion years for god to appear, wouldn't he be able to magic himself back to any point in time, and it also follows over a long enough period of time would end up visiting and meddling at every point in time. So surely even if god sprung fully formed from the cloven head of someone a trillion years from now, we'd already know about it.

I'm not certain that made sense, I blame Jazz.

God- if he exists is a prick.
god, if he exists, is so far above us that questions of good/evil fair/unfair dont apply to him.

*steals your popcorn and makes it an offering*

Here, God, if you exist, you can have this popcorn!

*Yoink*
Does that mean I'm god?

Yes, you read that correctly.

He, he.

How ironic would that be. The Bible and the Koran have suppressed women for centuries.

That goes against the Christian teaching that God loves us and only punishes us because he's a loving parent who doesn't want us to sin... :tongue:

:tongue: That always irritated me--if he does not want us to sin, does he not stop us? Freewill? He allows children to be tortured, raped, and murdered so the offender can have freewill. And any creature with the slightest trace of compassion could not stand by and let someone suffer complete torture for eternity. He is an abusive parent...Big Brother--"You must love Big Brother." *tortures* :D

Of course, talking about all this ethical stuff assumes we had already gotten past the incredible elements of the Bible, which, alas, I cannot.

He, he.

How ironic would that be. The Bible and the Koran have suppressed women for centuries.

I really doubt God, were it to exist in the form imagined by xians etc, would be constrained by internal versus external genitalia.

Of course you can't disprove god. You also can't disprove multiple gods. Or leprechauns. If you believe things on the basis of not being able to disprove them, you can end up believing anything.

god, if he exists, is so far above us that questions of good/evil fair/unfair dont apply to him.

^This. Human beings would be less than bacteria to him. Still, we are referring the Judeo-Christian God, who is said to be all-loving.

^This. Human beings would be less than bacteria to him. Still, we are referring the Judeo-Christian God, who is said to be all-loving.

If he is all knowing and all loving- then surly he knows of all the injustices in the world, but he just doesn't care enough about them to do any thing. That's a strange way of showing love.

The all-loving one that allows evil to repeatedly triumph in the world, and then sadistically lets those who practice it go to Hell for eternity? Not a chance.

God gave free will so people can choose to follow him or go to a life of sin. Evil is in the world because of Adam and eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.

^This. Human beings would be less than bacteria to him. Still, we are referring the Judeo-Christian God, who is said to be all-loving.
yes but would god cease to exist because of the logical inconsistency of an all loving god that gives children incurable cancer?

The old testament I believe is much longer than the new- so my theory is that the bastards who wrote the new one ran out of things to make up.

^This. Human beings would be less than bacteria to him. Still, we are referring the Judeo-Christian God, who is said to be all-loving.

A few things, if god is omnipotent, then despite our being utterly unfathomably insificant in comparison to him, we would also be entirely within his gaze and knowledge.

The god of all the holy texts under the Judeo-Christian remit, no matter what his disposition, is an inverterate meddler. Despite out obvious insignificance he never seemed to be able to keep his vast ethereal nose out of other peoples business.

And as for being all loving, the Jewish god very much isn't. He's mean, capricious, violent and wrathful. the jewish god knows everything about you, and hates you for everything individually, he even hates your choice of ugly drapes.

God gave free will so people can choose to follow him or go to a life of sin. Evil is in the world because of Adam and eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.

He, he.

You believe the bible word for word?

God gave free will so people can choose to follow him or go to a life of sin. Evil is in the world because of Adam and eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.
If god was so wise and all knowing I'm sure he'd have knew exactly what was going to happen when he created humans with free will. If he knew it was going to lead to so much misery, he shouldn't have bothered giving humans free will at all. Besides, isn't it just a little unfair that god punishes all humanity for something their ancestors did?

God gave free will so people can choose to follow him or go to a life of sin. Evil is in the world because of Adam and eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.

Was it free will that allowed Adam and Eve to eat that forbidden fruit?

Wouldn't free will then be the reason there is evil in the world?

Wouldn't that therefore make evil the fault of God?

If god was so wise and all knowing I'm sure he'd have knew exactly what was going to happen when he created humans with free will. If he knew it was going to lead to so much misery, he shouldn't have bothered giving humans free will at all. Besides, isn't it just a little unfair that god punishes all humanity for something their ancestors did?

Gods a malicious prick, isn't he?

The old testament I believe is much longer than the new- so my theory is that the bastards who wrote the new one ran out of things to make up.
lol

the new testament covers a much shorter period of time so it should be shorter.

And as for being all loving, the Jewish god very much isn't. He's mean, capricious, violent and wrathful. the jewish god knows everything about you, and hates you for everything individually, he even hates your choice of ugly drapes.

Tsk, I'm not surprised with *those* drapes :p

Personally I'm happy believing the gods are forces of nature, incomprehensible, capricious and generally uncaring of any individual person (or what they do). At least you know where you stand.

Gods a malicious prick, isn't he?
She! It wasn't Shakespeare who actually coined the phrase, "hell hath no fury..."

yes but would god cease to exist because of the logical inconsistency of an all loving god that gives children incurable cancer?

Correct. A God of ideal ethics (human ethics, anyway) could not exist.

Was it free will that allowed Adam and Eve to eat that forbidden fruit?

Wouldn't free will then be the reason there is evil in the world?

Wouldn't that therefore make evil the fault of God?

ALSO
IF all evil in the world was brought forth from the eating of the apple
AND the action of eating the apple was an act of disobediance, thus evil
THEN where did the evil needed to eat the apple come from ?

lol

the new testament covers a much shorter period of time so it should be shorter.

The people who wrote it, wrote it quite a while after jebus died, these people were supposed to have known him? Surely they'd be dead.

Was it free will that allowed Adam and Eve to eat that forbidden fruit?

Wouldn't free will then be the reason there is evil in the world?

Wouldn't that therefore make evil the fault of God?

Perhaps God is an anarchist, and only sends politicians to Hell?

yes but would god cease to exist because of the logical inconsistency of an all loving god that gives children incurable cancer?

Only if time on Earth was the only thing available (no afterlife) or that God actively gave the child cancer (not just that the child developed it).

God gave free will so people can choose to follow him or go to a life of sin. Evil is in the world because of Adam and eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.

This view, if it's all you have, is insufficient, whether it's correct or not. Why does God care if we follow Him or not? What is evil? Why would God permit it? What's the point of having anything to begin with?

She! It wasn't Shakespeare who actually coined the phrase, "hell hath no fury..."

He God, if he would be a male.

Only if time on Earth was the only thing available (no afterlife) or that God actively gave the child cancer (not just that the child developed it).

Does God set the bar higher or lower for children in terms of entry to heaven? or is it all equal no matter the age of the child?

The people who wrote it, wrote it quite a while after jebus died, these people were supposed to have known him? Surely they'd be dead.
nah thats a myth. no one knows who wrote the gospels. most of the epistles are sketchy as to authorship. the john of the apolcalypse isnt the same john who wrote the gospel who isnt john the apostle.

but the action of the new testament from the birth of jesus to....whatever might have been the last thing recorded... covers no more than.....50? 75?....years. whereas the old testament records ....4000 years of human history. (not that im saying that the old testament is a true record of human history)

He, he.

You believe the bible word for word?

No not at all I simply believe that in evolution I don’t believe creationism but I feel that Adam and eve are the early stages of man as we know it and that we can use genesis 3: 1-19 to explain evil in the world.

Only if time on Earth was the only thing available (no afterlife) or that God actively gave the child cancer (not just that the child developed it).
thats the part that people dont seem to understand eh? god didnt promise us a good life HERE. he promised us a good AFTERlife in heaven.

Only if time on Earth was the only thing available (no afterlife) or that God actively gave the child cancer (not just that the child developed it).I always like the euphemistic way of referring to the dying as 'god's chosen', or saying that god loved that one best and wanted him or her by His/Her side right away.

I sure wouldn't want the attention of a god like that!

He God, if he would be a male.

For someone who doesn’t believe in god I think you’re getting a bit angry at someone calling god female. are you hiding your true Christianity ROI?

I always like the euphemistic way of referring to the dying as 'god's chosen', or saying that god loved that one best and wanted him or her by His/Her side right away.

I sure wouldn't want the attention of a god like that!
its as terrifying as "god doesnt give you a burden that you can't bear" which means that if you were only a bit weaker this bad thing wouldnt have happened to you

or "there but for the grace of god go i" which implies that god hate the other guy.

its as terrifying as "god doesnt give you a burden that you can't bear" which means that if you were only a bit weaker this bad thing wouldnt have happened to you

Isn't that more a compliment than anything else?

or "there but for the grace of god go i" which implies that god hate the other guy.

Does it? Doesn't it just mean that God gave unmerited favor (grace) to one guy and to the other He let things run naturally or gave less unmerited favor? Does it necessarily imply hate?

Isn't that more a compliment than anything else?



Does it? Doesn't it just mean that God gave unmerited favor (grace) to one guy and to the other He let things run naturally or gave less unmerited favor? Does it necessarily imply hate?
besides being wrong, its a scary burden isnt it? your strength sets you up for worse tests than other people have.

i dunno. if *I* were the person referred to by the person who didnt get the bad thing happen, id be a tad insulted and a tad pissed that god graced him and let me twist in the wind.

Oh God, not another one.

I was having an argument with my friend today about god. There was no way that he could prove that god existed, but there was also no way that I could prove he didn't. He kept using the lame "the bible proves god exists" argument. I was wondering if any of you could prove that god exists or not.

I am so happy that somebody thinks NSG solved this, once and for all. It makes me proud to be part of this.

I was having an argument with my friend today about god. There was no way that he could prove that god existed, but there was also no way that I could prove he didn't. He kept using the lame "the bible proves god exists" argument. I was wondering if any of you could prove that god exists or not.



There is alot of historical proof of things that are talked about in the bible.

Links: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGIC,GGIC:2006-39,GGIC:en&q=biblical+History

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

I can tell you from personal experience that "Yes " God does exist. I can also tell you that Jesus is the Son of God, the CHRIST, the promised one. But you must make that choice for your self, no one else can do this for you. Please choose wisely.

Does God set the bar higher or lower for children in terms of entry to heaven? or is it all equal no matter the age of the child?
Lots of people believe different things.

There is alot of historical proof of things that are talked about in the bible.

I too can say things that are untrue, perhaps we should form a club.

There is alot of historical proof of things that are talked about in the bible.
there is astoundingly little proof for things that are talked about in the bible. only the very broadest of outlines are true.....there was an eqypt, there was a babylon, there was a rome....kind of thing.

besides being wrong, its a scary burden isnt it? your strength sets you up for worse tests than other people have.

Well, just because you can bear it, doesn't mean you will bear it.

I guess it's not that scary to me, because it's what I'm used to. As I get stronger, smarter, whatever I am presented with more difficult tasks. Why not in the spiritual as well?

i dunno. if *I* were the person referred to by the person who didnt get the bad thing happen, id be a tad insulted and a tad pissed that god graced him and let me twist in the wind.

Again, this may not be that big a deal to me, because it's what I'm used to. If you and I deserve far worse than we're getting, but you get better relief than I do, I may be jealous, but I don't in any way deserve the same relief.

There is alot of historical proof of things that are talked about in the bible.

ROI wont listen I was the friend he was talking about and I have explained this to him.

I am unconvinced, that surely just says "over a long enough time frame, the impossible is bound to happen." Besides, if it took a trillion years for god to appear, wouldn't he be able to magic himself back to any point in time, and it also follows over a long enough period of time would end up visiting and meddling at every point in time. So surely even if god sprung fully formed from the cloven head of someone a trillion years from now, we'd already know about it.

And we do, just not with any degree of certainty. :)

Well, just because you can bear it, doesn't mean you will bear it.

I guess it's not that scary to me, because it's what I'm used to. As I get stronger, smarter, whatever I am presented with more difficult tasks. Why not in the spiritual as well?


im not saying that you are wrong. im suggesting that you broaden the way you might think about it....

you go in for a test/biopsy for pancreatic cancer....if you are a weak person you wont have it because its too much of a burden, if you are strong you may have it because god knows you can deal with it.

its nice to be strong enough to deal with anything but it sucks to believe that that strength brings on worse problems. maybe you should be working on being weaker so that you dont burden those around you.


Again, this may not be that big a deal to me, because it's what I'm used to. If you and I deserve far worse than we're getting, but you get better relief than I do, I may be jealous, but I don't in any way deserve the same relief.

we dont have bad things happen to us because we deserve them. good and bad happen to everyone at random. if god graces one person it is not because he deserves it. its just something that god does.

and again when i say "there but for the grace of god go i" it is supposed to be my acknowleging that i have good fortune that i dont deserve but the flip side to that is that god doesnt give a rats ass about the pitiful person im comparing myself to.

its good to acknowlege your good fortune but it does reflect badly on your ideas about the other guy.

Another god thread. Proof that if god exists, she hates us.

I interpret as a sign of god's weird sense of humour.

I really doubt God, were it to exist in the form imagined by xians etc, would be constrained by internal versus external genitalia.

The venerable is not defined by the venereal?

No not at all I simply believe that in evolution I don’t believe creationism but I feel that Adam and eve are the early stages of man as we know it and that we can use genesis 3: 1-19 to explain evil in the world.

It still doesn't work. That would mean that at some point in our evolution, we had no pain or suffering, as that could not occur before sin. Since other primates like chimpanzees and gorillas obviously feel pain and suffer, as do lemurs and other prehominid animals, that would suggest that animals are capable of sin. Is that what you believe?

thats the part that people dont seem to understand eh? god didnt promise us a good life HERE. he promised us a good AFTERlife in heaven.

That's not good enough. There is no reason why god (if god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent) could not punish the wicked and reward the faithful without also causing apparently unnecessary pain and suffering to innocents. The child dying of a painful form of cancer could still receive a reward in heaven without the pain in this world, if god merely willed it.

ROI wont listen I was the friend he was talking about and I have explained this to him.
historical accuracy is not the same as the proof of god.


not that the bible is historically accurate.

im not saying that you are wrong. im suggesting that you broaden the way you might think about it....

you go in for a test/biopsy for pancreatic cancer....if you are a weak person you wont have it because its too much of a burden, if you are strong you may have it because god knows you can deal with it.

its nice to be strong enough to deal with anything but it sucks to believe that that strength brings on worse problems. maybe you should be working on being weaker so that you dont burden those around you.

we dont have bad things happen to us because we deserve them. good and bad happen to everyone at random. if god graces one person it is not because he deserves it. its just something that god does.

and again when i say "there but for the grace of god go i" it is supposed to be my acknowleging that i have good fortune that i dont deserve but the flip side to that is that god doesnt give a rats ass about the pitiful person im comparing myself to.

its good to acknowlege your good fortune but it does reflect badly on your ideas about the other guy.

I guess I just focus on the positive side of them.

[QUOTE=Gift-of-god;14662190]

It still doesn't work. That would mean that at some point in our evolution, we had no pain or suffering, as that could not occur before sin. Since other primates like chimpanzees and gorillas obviously feel pain and suffer, as do lemurs and other prehominid animals, that would suggest that animals are capable of sin. Is that what you believe?

[\QUOTE]

No animal is capable of sin but feels pain to help survival so that it knows not to do what it did to cause that pain again. So in the future it can have better survival instincts.

Animals are separate from humans in this animals follow instinct for survival. I also said Adam and eve (first people on earth) which would mean anyone who lives after that would be in a world with pain and suffering.

No animal is capable of sin but feels pain to help survival so that it knows not to do what it did to cause that pain again. So in the future it can have better survival instincts.

Animals are separate from humans in this animals follow instinct for survival. I also said Adam and eve (first people on earth) which would mean anyone who lives after that would be in a world with pain and suffering.

When did the first people on Earth live?

I interpret as a sign of god's weird sense of humour. Well, man is known to create god in his image, so that follows.

The venerable is not defined by the venereal? More like, I don't think god gets penis envy. "And behold, upon the fiery loins of that omnipotent being arose a mighty tumescence fit to rend the very earth asunder!" I bet she actually says that when it creates whatever genitalia he feels like having at any given time.

When did the first people on Earth live?

I don’t know the exact figure something like 1.6 million years ago or could be 1.1 million years ago.

historical accuracy is not the same as the proof of god.


not that the bible is historically accurate.

True. But when I was explaining this he denied anything in the bible having any historical accuracy.

God is either:

http://doanimation.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/haruhicroped.jpg

OR

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2286/196924-giygas_large.jpg

I don't know about you, but I know who I'd rather choose. :tongue:

True. But when I was explaining this he denied anything in the bible having any historical accuracy.
there isnt much in there that is historically accurate. but it was never intended to be a history book.

I don't know about you, but I know who I'd rather choose. :tongue:

GIYGAS GIYGAS GIYGAS GIYGAS GIYGAS I CHOOSE GIYGAS

boing

I don’t know the exact figure something like 1.6 million years ago or could be 1.1 million years ago.

So, no pain and suffering existed before that?

So, no pain and suffering existed before that?

For animals there would have been but not for humans as they had not yet evolved. (Not totally sure about the dates though)

For animals there would have been but not for humans as they had not yet evolved. (Not totally sure about the dates though)

If pain and suffering is caused by sin, and animals can't sin, why do they have pain and suffering?

If pain and suffering is caused by sin, and animals can't sin, why do they have pain and suffering?

Because that is how God wanted it.

Because that is how God wanted it.

Lamest Explanation ever.

Also thats one sadistic God you have there.

well no one could explain that except god.

and if that is how you concieve him, then its your opinion

Because that is how God wanted it. So God wanted us to have sin, and even absent sin, he could have wanted us to have pain and suffering just like animals? Seems like the common theme is, God is a sadist.

Because that is how God wanted it.

If god wants to cause pain and suffering to animals for no reason, how can we say that god is omnibenevolent?

If god wants to cause pain and suffering to animals for no reason, how can we say that god is omnibenevolent?

All animals are masochists, thus they find it pleasurable. God is a utilitarian and so is simply maximising overall pleasure.

All animals are masochists, thus they find it pleasurable. God is a utilitarian and so is simply maximising overall pleasure.

I love how this forum's topics bleed over into one another so seamlessly :D

No not at all I simply believe that in evolution I don’t believe creationism but I feel that Adam and eve are the early stages of man as we know it and that we can use genesis 3: 1-19 to explain evil in the world.
Adam and Eve didn't exist!
For someone who doesn’t believe in god I think you’re getting a bit angry at someone calling god female. are you hiding your true Christianity ROI?
Ha, that's a good one. Why would I believe such drivel?
[QUOTE=Gift-of-god;14662190]

It still doesn't work. That would mean that at some point in our evolution, we had no pain or suffering, as that could not occur before sin. Since other primates like chimpanzees and gorillas obviously feel pain and suffer, as do lemurs and other prehominid animals, that would suggest that animals are capable of sin. Is that what you believe?

[\QUOTE]

No animal is capable of sin but feels pain to help survival so that it knows not to do what it did to cause that pain again. So in the future it can have better survival instincts.

Animals are separate from humans in this animals follow instinct for survival. I also said Adam and eve (first people on earth) which would mean anyone who lives after that would be in a world with pain and suffering.
How are animals separate from us?
I don’t know the exact figure something like 1.6 million years ago or could be 1.1 million years ago.
How long has the world been around? 6 million years?
Because that is how God wanted it.
That is perhaps the worst argument I've ever heard.

How long has the world been around? 6 million years?

4.6 billion.

That is perhaps the worst argument I've ever heard.

That's just what I was thinking.

4.6 billion.

I was wondering if he was like Pallin. You don't think I'm that stupid do you?

That's just what I was thinking.

Great minds think alike.

I was wondering if he was like Pallin. You don't think I'm that stupid do you?

Once again, the way you phrased the post confused me.

Great minds think alike.

Fools never differ.

So God wanted us to have sin, and even absent sin, he could have wanted us to have pain and suffering just like animals? Seems like the common theme is, God is a sadist.

:mad: He prefers to be called "kinky".

I am just wondering what kind of proof are you looking for? There are ALL out there, you just have to open your "eyes" and see them.

The fact that you do not believe in God does not make Him less real to me. He is very real to me and in my life, but that is because I have invited Him to be part of it.

I will recommend that you try and get to know Him (or Her, for those who prefer it that way, it does not make a difference). Go to a good bible-based church, read and study the bible and the history behind it. Not everything in there may be true, but they are still good teachings. Finally, talk to God like you talk to a friend, let Him know what you think, your likes and dislikes and then ask Him/Her to reveal him/herself to you. But do not do it with a hard-heart, try to be sincere and be open-minded and give Him/Her a chance to befriend you and to reveal who He/She is to you.

There is nothing I or anybody can say to prove God to you, because this is a matter of faith. Therefore, only you can prove it to yourself, but you have to be open to Him, invite Him to be part of your life, and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. You've got nothing to lose...

Have a nice day !

god is coming and SHE is pissed off let me tell you, but seriously i think the scopes vs. monkey trial had a pretty good go at it

He kept using the lame "the bible proves god exists" argument..

this is backing up your argument with.....tada! your argument, foolish

You can't prove with facts that God exists or doesn't exist.

I am just wondering what kind of proof are you looking for? There are ALL out there, you just have to open your "eyes" and see them.

Or you could just realize that cause and effect exist in the world. If you look for miracles you will manage to "see" miracles where random chance exists.


I will recommend that you try and get to know Him (or Her, for those who prefer it that way, it does not make a difference). Go to a good bible-based church, read and study the bible and the history behind it. Not everything in there may be true, but they are still good teachings. Finally, talk to God like you talk to a friend, let Him know what you think, your likes and dislikes and then ask Him/Her to reveal him/herself to you. But do not do it with a hard-heart, try to be sincere and be open-minded and give Him/Her a chance to befriend you and to reveal who He/She is to you.

There is nothing I or anybody can say to prove God to you, because this is a matter of faith. Therefore, only you can prove it to yourself, but you have to be open to Him, invite Him to be part of your life, and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. You've got nothing to lose...

Have a nice day !

Which unless you are in the Middle East you are SOL. I don't think there has been a single instance of "God" appearing to someone outside that area. Unless you wish to be Mormon in which case "God" appeared on the east coast of the US.

There is no proof for the existence of "God" just as their is no refuting his existence. You can choose to hope that such a being exists and that s/he is friendly but you will never be able to know for certain so why bother?

I am going to state my opinion as though it were a fact, acknowledge that other people think differently but brush them off as irrelevant and suggest that you proceed to same kind of religious institution that I attend so you can do the things I do. Then you'll realise that God/s is/are exactly as I said.

i will say this: The creation of the universe is a puzzling thing, and it is possible that some entity with power beyond the comprehension of present-day science made it.

However, that entity would not be 100% benevolent--at least not in the human sense of the of the word. And it is not that blatant creature from the bible.


thank you!

Once again, the way you phrased the post confused me.

Sorry, I know I'm confusing.

Fools never differ.

I lol'd, I haven't heard that one before.

You can't prove with facts that God exists or doesn't exist.

Source? :)

You know i used to debate this stuff a lot on the christian side of the argument but i discovered that i know God exists and i dont have to prove it but if u dont then that's your problem. But just to state my opinion i do believe there is a God and he loves us all! God Bless all of you.

You know i used to debate this stuff a lot on the christian side of the argument but i discovered that i know God exists and i dont have to prove it but if u dont then that's your problem. But just to state my opinion i do believe there is a God and he loves us all!
Shame you haven't discovered the Caps Lock button.:p
God Bless all of you.

TY.

your welcome

your welcome

You're welcome

You're welcome

He, he.

Oh yea sorry that was a bad typo. haha

Oh yea sorry that was a bad typo. haha

Oh yeah that was a bad typo. Haha.

One cannot prove the existence or non-existence of some arbitrary god or gods.

However, one can prove the non-existence of a specifically defined god if his definition is impossible or a logical contradiction.

For instance, many people claim that the Christian god is impossible because he is claimed to be both all-powerful and all-knowing (omniscient). If he is all-knowing, then he cannot change what he "knows is" or "knows will be" and therefore he isn't all-powerful.

If he can change what he "knows is" or "knows will be" then he isn't all knowing because he can cause himself to be wrong.

Either way, the Christian god, as defined by Christianity, is self-contradictory and cannot exist.

Note this doesn't mean he (she? it?) doesn't exist, it just may be that the Christian definition of him is wrong. Certainly the bible does not justify the Christian definition as the god of the bible is sometimes described as surprised or disappointed which would be impossible for an all-knowing and all-powerful entity.

I was having an argument with my friend today about god. There was no way that he could prove that god existed, but there was also no way that I could prove he didn't. He kept using the lame "the bible proves god exists" argument. I was wondering if any of you could prove that god exists or not.

it's not possible for a person to "prove" the existence of God. There are several reasons for this:
1. By His nature, God won't reveal Himself to those who do not want to know Him. Therefore, because they are unwilling to consider that God exists, even IF He tried to reveal Himself, they would not accept the proof - so why waste His time?

2. If someone doesn't want to believe in God, they won't - no amount of evidence will prove it to them, because they will find a way to "explain away" the evidence. there are even sites on line to "explain" the miracles mentioned in the Bible.

3. So, say you decided you were willing to give God "a chance". If you decide "if God does this, I will believe," you've elevated yourself above God (God has to do your bidding, prove Himself to you rather than the other way around). If a person elevates himself above God, s/he won't have any respect for God in the first place, and the moment God doesn't fulfill that person's expectations, they will consider that to be "proof" that God doesn't really exist - all previous proofs would be relegated to "coincidence".

If you REALLY want to know if God exists, and are REALLY AND TRULY willing to respond to Him - He'll let you know He's out there. We're promised that if we seek God with all our heart, we will surely find Him.

It's that "all your heart" thing that defines whether or not He'll give you a "hey howdy." FYI: I REALLY wanted to know - and yes, He revealed Himself to me, in multiple ways and has for years.

1. By His nature, God won't reveal Himself to those who do not want to know Him. Therefore, because they are unwilling to consider that God exists, even IF He tried to reveal Himself, they would not accept the proof - so why waste His time?

Fascinating. And you know this how?

Fascinating. And you know this how?

That's acctually in the Bible. I know that's not good proof to you but that's probably where he got it.

That's acctually in the Bible. I know that's not good proof to you but that's probably where he got it.

Actually, I believe the bible says just the opposite.

Isaiah 65:1 "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, 'Here am I, here am I."

Matthew 18:12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13: And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off."

Actually, I believe the bible says just the opposite.

Isaiah 65:1 "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, 'Here am I, here am I."

Matthew 18:12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13: And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off."
And i agree that God reveals himself to people. It's rather or not people accept it as God and not Coinsidence.

I was having an argument with my friend today about god. There was no way that he could prove that god existed, but there was also no way that I could prove he didn't. He kept using the lame "the bible proves god exists" argument. I was wondering if any of you could prove that god exists or not.

God is a Myth.



Until it gets married. Then it's a Mytheth.

Therefore if non-believers don't accept God's existence he doesn't seem to appear.

Therefore if non-believers don't accept God's existence he doesn't seem to appear.

How self-serving.

So - when a believer ALSO says that 'god didn't appear', you can instantly write them off as not being a REAL believer.

Nice.

How self-serving.

So - when a believer ALSO says that 'god didn't appear', you can instantly write them off as not being a REAL believer.

Nice.

I dont see why not? haha Obviously they aren't a REAL believer if they dont accept that God doesn't appear.

I dont see why not? haha Obviously they aren't a REAL believer if they dont accept that God doesn't appear.

Apart from it's logical fallacy-ness, it's not a precedent you really want to set... because you wouldn't accept such an argument, yourself.

For example - REAL christians believe that Jesus lived 34 years without ever once taking a shit.

One cannot prove the existence or non-existence of some arbitrary god or gods.

However, one can prove the non-existence of a specifically defined god if his definition is impossible or a logical contradiction.

For instance, many people claim that the Christian god is impossible because he is claimed to be both all-powerful and all-knowing (omniscient). If he is all-knowing, then he cannot change what he "knows is" or "knows will be" and therefore he isn't all-powerful.

If he can change what he "knows is" or "knows will be" then he isn't all knowing because he can cause himself to be wrong.

Either way, the Christian god, as defined by Christianity, is self-contradictory and cannot exist.

Note this doesn't mean he (she? it?) doesn't exist, it just may be that the Christian definition of him is wrong. Certainly the bible does not justify the Christian definition as the god of the bible is sometimes described as surprised or disappointed which would be impossible for an all-knowing and all-powerful entity.


I rather liked this; however please consider:

What if what he "knows is" is what he wants, thus has no desire nor need to change it?

Same argument for what he "knows will be".

If he created it, wouldn't it follow logically that he created it how he wanted; that the outcome he wanted is inevitable, and that conjecture is not neccessary.

Just a thought.

God is a Myth.



Until it gets married. Then it's a Mytheth.

What are you even on about? how can something that is a myth get married if it's not real.

1) What was "god" doing for the infinite time prior to creating the heaven and the earth?

2) Have you thought for a while and tried to comprehend how long an infinite period of time is?

3) If there is a god, I think the best thing you can say about him, is that he is an under achiever - Woody Allen

The people who wrote it, wrote it quite a while after jebus died, these people were supposed to have known him? Surely they'd be dead.

They wrote it about thirty years after jesus so they would have been about 50.

And it is spelt jesus there is no 'b' in his name.

I can tell you that the religieus version of God does not excist.
The man on the cloud etc.
God is everything around us, it is a force of nature, it is nature and everything that makes reality.

I always marvel at the nerve of people expecting God to do magic tricks to prove it excists.
I do believe the force know as God has better things to doe then prove to us it excists, you know keeping al of reality from crashing down.
Faith is something you have or you don't.
You don't need a religion, a book or a group of people to tell you how to have faith or why.
You have it or you don't, it's that easy and that difficult.

God is a Myth.



Until it gets married. Then it's a Mytheth.

Huh?

What are you even on about? how can something that is a myth get married if it's not real.

You ever heard of a joke?

They wrote it about thirty years after jesus so they would have been about 50.
Nah, if your "messiah" is real he would have lived untill he was between 28 and 43 (I think?) :
Jesus of Nazareth (7–2 BC/BCE – 26–36 AD/CE),[2][3] also known as Jesus Christ, is the central figure of Christianity and is revered by most Christian churches as the Son of God and the incarnation of God.
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
Thus he was fairly old for his time, and if they wrote it 30 years after they'd have been 58 to 73, which is way to old.
And it is spelt jesus there is no 'b' in his name.

Prove to me that there isn't a "B" in his name.

God exists.

He's in Hungary wearing a metal umlaut:

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/928/goduqt.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3696/godjot.jpg)

I was having an argument with my friend today about god. There was no way that he could prove that god existed, but there was also no way that I could prove he didn't. He kept using the lame "the bible proves god exists" argument. I was wondering if any of you could prove that god exists or not.

Maybe you should switch to the definition of "proving" something.

Actually, I believe the bible says just the opposite.

Isaiah 65:1 "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, 'Here am I, here am I."

."
This is referencing Israel, not "people" in general - don't take passages out of context.

Matthew 18:12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13: And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off That, too, is referencing someone whom God already has a relationship with, and has wandered off - cuz, notice, hello- the sheep was initially part of the flock, not one that just happened to wander by.

That's acctually in the Bible. I know that's not good proof to you but that's probably where he got it.

I know it in part from Scripture- and a pragmatic use of logic.

If God says, "If you search for me with all your heart" - that's a classic "if/then" statement. There are a lot of those in Scripture. God's character can be understood by examining those kinds of statements and evaluating what kind of things God is willing to give, based on our actions/attitudes toward him.

God is a Myth.



Until it gets married. Then it's a Mytheth.

:eek: :D

brilliant!! Honestly - one of the best jokes I've ever heard. My family thought it was a riot.

1) What was "god" doing for the infinite time prior to creating the heaven and the earth?

2) Have you thought for a while and tried to comprehend how long an infinite period of time is?

3) If there is a god, I think the best thing you can say about him, is that he is an under achiever - Woody Allen

1 & 2 -Ok - for starters... by definition "infinity" isn't a "long time" at all, if you understand infinity as a dimension in which time does even exist. (star trek fans: ref: the wormhole aliens, DS-9: time was non-linear for them, and they had a hard time understanding the concept).

btw - no I didn't get this understanding from Star Trek. It's in the bible:

Scripture says, "In the beginning, God created..." everything God created existed in a realm outside himself. Therefore, if He exists in "infinity" -- the very first thing he created was a "beginning," meaning a reference of time, when something wasn't, and then it was.

Linear time was the first thing God created - a realm outside His own, into which He revealed Himself through His creation.

3 - just for the sake of amusing discussion: what makes you think we've seen all that He has created??? Underachiever - let's see YOU make a star!!:D

yes but would god cease to exist because of the logical inconsistency of an all loving god that gives children incurable cancer?

depends on the "why"

#1 - y'all need to remember - even when people no longer exist on earth, they still exist.

A kid has incurable cancer - that's a total bite for kid and family. However - when that kid dies, that child still exists before God.

We have hardships in this life because of sin - and in those hardships, we have a choice - to develop the character traits of God, or to not do so. The "fruits of the Holy Spirit" are (among others) - love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. If someone develops those character traits, no matter how or when or why - then when they stand before the Throne of Judgment, they will have shown to have developed the "gold, silver and precious jewels".

I Corinthians: vs 11* For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


Jesus is the "foundation" - the means of salvation - which we all need, cuz we all sin.



12-13 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident;

Whatever you do w/ that "foundation of salvation," will become evident. You will either create things that are wonderful, or you'll waste it.

for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. (work can also mean "deeds" or "activities")

Everyone will face this "fire" - it's the "refiner's fire," and we'll all endure it.

14 If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

If you developed the character traits of God - those will last. If you didn't, they won't.

I'll end there, and let y'all decide how you want to respond before I go on.

What are you even on about? how can something that is a myth get married if it's not real.

Myth = Miss

Mytheth = Mrs.

The people who wrote it, wrote it quite a while after jebus died, these people were supposed to have known him? Surely they'd be dead.

what proof/evidence do you have to support that logic?

...

A kid has incurable cancer - that's a total bite for kid and family. However - when that kid dies, that child still exists before God.

We have hardships in this life because of sin - and in those hardships, we have a choice - to develop the character traits of God, or to not do so.

The child dying of incurable cancer has commited less sin than many others who are walking around without cancer. If pain and suffering are a product of sin, then it is being handed out in a rather unbalanced manner. After all, serial rapists and killers aren't filling the cancer wards, are they?

That seems like odd behaviour for an omnibenevolent diety.

The "fruits of the Holy Spirit" are (among others) - love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. If someone develops those character traits, no matter how or when or why - then when they stand before the Throne of Judgment, they will have shown to have developed the "gold, silver and precious jewels".

One would think that an omnibenevolent deity would want to mete out hardship and cultivate these traits without allowing things like genocide, child abuse, and chronic and painful disease. And that an omnipotent being could do so.

One last word before i leave this post for good. I was at a youth camp one time and a kid had broken his wrist earlier that day. It was at service we were all praying in the presence of God and the kid that broke his wrist punched it and unwrapped the splint around it. The next day he played in a football tournament. That is just one of many things i've seen God do. I used to doubt God's existence but now i have faith and that's all i need, cuz in the end Faith beats logic any day. Whether you like it or not.
God Bless You All.

They wrote it about thirty years after jesus so they would have been about 50.

And it is spelt jesus there is no 'b' in his name.

I'll wait for your sources for that, shall I?

/meme

One last word before i leave this post for good. I was at a youth camp one time and a kid had broken his wrist earlier that day. It was at service we were all praying in the presence of God and the kid that broke his wrist punched it and unwrapped the splint around it. The next day he played in a football tournament. That is just one of many things i've seen God do. I used to doubt God's existence but now i have faith and that's all i need, cuz in the end Faith beats logic any day. Whether you like it or not.
God Bless You All.

I was playing football with some friends, and one of them got his arm hurt. After they checked it, they decided it was a sprain, and he played on.

The next day, we took him to the ER, and it turns out it was broken!


It's a miracle!

Praise a random unverifiable character!

I was playing football with some friends, and one of them got his arm hurt. After they checked it, they decided it was a sprain, and he played on.

The next day, we took him to the ER, and it turns out it was broken!


It's a miracle!

Praise a random unverifiable character!

Believe it or not. Believe what you want. I'll believe what i want. Here I'll make you a deal. When we die if i'm right I'll look down and say i told you so, if you're right then you can rub it in my face. Oh wait! No you cant :p

I was playing football with some friends, and one of them got his arm hurt. After they checked it, they decided it was a sprain, and he played on.

The next day, we took him to the ER, and it turns out it was broken!


It's a miracle!

Praise a random unverifiable character!

I lol'd.

Faith beats logic any day

No it doesn't. Not in the slightest. I could say "I have faith that if I ram this knife into my chest, I'll be fine, and magical fairies will come leaping from the whole in my chest." Common sense tells me I'll die. Which should I trust?

No it doesn't. Not in the slightest. I could say "I have faith that if I ram this knife into my chest, I'll be fine, and magical fairies will come leaping from the whole in my chest." Common sense tells me I'll die. Which should I trust?

Definitely the fairies.:p

Just say, "No."

No it doesn't. Not in the slightest. I could say "I have faith that if I ram this knife into my chest, I'll be fine, and magical fairies will come leaping from the whole in my chest." Common sense tells me I'll die. Which should I trust?

Faith is not the same thing as stupidity. And miracles happen but not to people that are stupid enough to stab themselves.:p

Faith is not the same thing as stupidity. And miracles happen but not to people that are stupid enough to stab themselves.:p

But both are the same. Having faith that God healed this person is about as sensical and has about as much evidence as my fairy theory.

Faith is not the same thing as stupidity. And miracles happen but not to people that are stupid enough to stab themselves.:p

Well, actually I think you'll find people stab themselves quite a bit ( on purpose or not). Define "miracle".

Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a being coming into existence with the power to create a universe and stock it with life approaches 1.

1) Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a Flying Spaghetti Monster coming into existence with the power to create the universe and stock it with life approaches 1.

2) Over a long enough timeframe, the UNlikelihood of a being coming into existence with the power to create a universe and stock it with life approaches 1.

3) Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a world being created without the involvement or existence of a god approaches 1.

4) ....

.
.
.
WTF.

Just say, "No."

Bullshit. "Do people breathe?" "No."

OMG I JUST PROVED HUMANS DON'T BREATHE LOL!

But both are the same. Having faith that God healed this person is about as sensical and has about as much evidence as my fairy theory.

Seriously dude, I think you were onto something with that fairy shit. Maybe you should test your theory.

1) Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a Flying Spaghetti Monster coming into existence with the power to create the universe and stock it with life approaches 1.

2) Over a long enough timeframe, the UNlikelihood of a being coming into existence with the power to create a universe and stock it with life approaches 1.

3) Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a world being created without the involvement or existence of a god approaches 1.

4) ....

.
.
.
WTF.

Did I sprain your Brane? ;)

1) Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a Flying Spaghetti Monster coming into existence with the power to create the universe and stock it with life approaches 1.

2) Over a long enough timeframe, the UNlikelihood of a being coming into existence with the power to create a universe and stock it with life approaches 1.

3) Over a long enough timeframe, the likelihood of a world being created without the involvement or existence of a god approaches 1.

4) ....

.
.
.
WTF.
Dude, are you a Pastafarian?

Well, actually I think you'll find people stab themselves quite a bit ( on purpose or not). Define "miracle".

Ok i have another story. A man was in his house reading his Bible and praying. He heard a noise and stood up with his Bible still in his hand. He walked into the kitchen and startled a burglar that was armed. The man flinched and rose his Bible up infront of his chest. the bullet hit the tightly packed Bible and stopped the bullet, but knocked the man off his feet. When the man got up and noticed the burglar had ran out of the house. The man was saved by his Bible. He got down on his knees and thanked God. I dont know about you but i dont think that happens a lot? does it?

Believe it or not. Believe what you want. I'll believe what i want. Here I'll make you a deal.


You have an ability I lack, apparently.

I can't 'believe what I want'.

I'm not sure I'd really call it belief, even, if you get to choose.


When we die if i'm right I'll look down and say i told you so, if you're right then you can rub it in my face. Oh wait! No you cant :p

Yeah, because there are only two choices. Either you're right, or I am.

If only the world were always so simple.

Most likely, we're both wrong (statistically, that's the most likely option) and you and I will BOTH spend eternity cursing our lack of faith in the TRUE religion.

Ok i have another story. A man was in his house reading his Bible and praying. He heard a noise and stood up with his Bible still in his hand. He walked into the kitchen and startled a burglar that was armed. The man flinched and rose his Bible up infront of his chest. the bullet hit the tightly packed Bible and stopped the bullet, but knocked the man off his feet. When the man got up and noticed the burglar had ran out of the house. The man was saved by his Bible. He got down on his knees and thanked God. I dont know about you but i dont think that happens a lot? does it?

I bet it happens about as frequently with Bibles as with Stephen King novels. ;)

Faith is not the same thing as stupidity. And miracles happen but not to people that are stupid enough to stab themselves.:p

You really need to read your Bible.

If you REALLY believe, according to the Bible, you SHOULD be able to ram a knife through your heart and be fine.



Why do you lack faith?

You really need to read your Bible.

If you REALLY believe, according to the Bible, you SHOULD be able to ram a knife through your heart and be fine.



Why do you lack faith?

Because God created this thing called science and common sense which that goes against. But if i had to stab myself with a knife and live i could with enough faith. Have any of you ever been to church?

Ok i have another story. A man was in his house reading his Bible and praying. He heard a noise and stood up with his Bible still in his hand. He walked into the kitchen and startled a burglar that was armed. The man flinched and rose his Bible up infront of his chest. the bullet hit the tightly packed Bible and stopped the bullet, but knocked the man off his feet. When the man got up and noticed the burglar had ran out of the house. The man was saved by his Bible. He got down on his knees and thanked God. I dont know about you but i dont think that happens a lot? does it?

It's a bullshit story - which is why it's always presented as an anecdote, rather than as an event that has any evidence.

A book - tightly packed or not - won't stop a bullet over the distance of one room. Don't believe me? Try it.

Because God created this thing called science and common sense which that goes against.


Have you ever even READ a Bible?

What does it say about the wisdom of the world?


But if i had to stab myself with a knife and live i could with enough faith.


Which directly contradicts what you just said.

So which is it - do you have faith to take a mortal wound, or don't you?

Would faith save you? I mean - really?

It would be an interesting argument to make - it would mean it's impossible to kill Christians, which would ALSO mean that someone killing YOU would be evidence that you were never really a believer.


Have any of you ever been to church?

Yes. Many times.

You have an ability I lack, apparently.

I can't 'believe what I want'.

I'm not sure I'd really call it belief, even, if you get to choose.



Yeah, because there are only two choices. Either you're right, or I am.

If only the world were always so simple.

Most likely, we're both wrong (statistically, that's the most likely option) and you and I will BOTH spend eternity cursing our lack of faith in the TRUE religion.

Every other religion has many things wrong with them. Christianity's only problem is us christians. We fail to live the way the bible tells us. Well a majority of christians the rest are true christians

The original question was "God?"

Again, Just say "No."

Every other religion has many things wrong with them. Christianity's only problem is us christians. We fail to live the way the bible tells us. Well a majority of christians the rest are true christians

Heh. I'm not a Christian, and I live a more 'Christian' life than anyone I ever met that claims to be one.

If you really think that the only thing 'wrong' with Christianity, is the fanclub, then you've never really READ your holy book.

Discussing whether God exists or doesn't exist is quite possibly the biggest waste of time imaginable. You either believe or you don't.

Have you ever even READ a Bible?

What does it say about the wisdom of the world?



Which directly contradicts what you just said.

So which is it - do you have faith to take a mortal wound, or don't you?

Would faith save you? I mean - really?

It would be an interesting argument to make - it would mean it's impossible to kill Christians, which would ALSO mean that someone killing YOU would be evidence that you were never really a believer.



Yes. Many times.

This is where people get confused. Faith can save you unless your time is up then you must leave this world. And if you've been to church what makes you not believe?

I know it in part from Scripture- and a pragmatic use of logic.

If God says, "If you search for me with all your heart" - that's a classic "if/then" statement. There are a lot of those in Scripture. God's character can be understood by examining those kinds of statements and evaluating what kind of things God is willing to give, based on our actions/attitudes toward him.

If you push hard enough, you will shit gold. Don't believe it? Give it a try.

It would be an interesting argument to make - it would mean it's impossible to kill Christians, which would ALSO mean that someone killing YOU would be evidence that you were never really a believer.


Not necessarily. It would mean it was that christian's time to die.

So good christians ought to stab themselves because if it's their time to die, they certainly don't want to be late for their appointment and if it isn't, then God won't let them die.

What I can't figure out is why suicide is a sin then. :confused:

This is where people get confused. Faith can save you unless your time is up then you must leave this world.


Bullshit... unless you're arguing that there is no free will?


And if you've been to church what makes you not believe?

Nothing 'makes me' not believe. I just don't believe.

It's not convincing, and there's no evidence.

And once you don't believe, you stop making excuses for the Bible.

It's a bullshit story - which is why it's always presented as an anecdote, rather than as an event that has any evidence.

A book - tightly packed or not - won't stop a bullet over the distance of one room. Don't believe me? Try it.

Bible credited with saving soldier's life (http://www.oleantimesherald.com/articles/2007/08/07/news/doc46b8e0a9ac319036285290.txt)

ANDOVER - An Andover man serving in Iraq credits divine intervention for saving his life after getting shot this past Wednesday.
...
The bullet from the high-powered rifle would have likely ricocheted off his protective armor and re-entered his chest had it not been stopped by the small Army-issue Bible in his pocket, she added. None of his internal organs were hit by the bullet.

Evidence of a) god and/or b) the need for shock absorbent material on the inside of armour.

Discussing whether God exists or doesn't exist is quite possibly the biggest waste of time imaginable. You either believe or you don't.

Amen, brother.

Ok i have another story. A man was in his house reading his Bible and praying. He heard a noise and stood up with his Bible still in his hand. He walked into the kitchen and startled a burglar that was armed. The man flinched and rose his Bible up infront of his chest. the bullet hit the tightly packed Bible and stopped the bullet, but knocked the man off his feet. When the man got up and noticed the burglar had ran out of the house. The man was saved by his Bible. He got down on his knees and thanked God. I dont know about you but i dont think that happens a lot? does it?

I wonder how many times Bibles haven't saved people, and I wonder how many times a copy of "The Origin Of Species" or Harry Potter or some other book has saved people.

Heh. I'm not a Christian, and I live a more 'Christian' life than anyone I ever met that claims to be one.

If you really think that the only thing 'wrong' with Christianity, is the fanclub, then you've never really READ your holy book.

And You have read my holy book? because if christians did what they were told then none of them would be convicted of all these things?

And dont question what i do and dont know about God or the Bible, cuz i'm a pastors son. I hate debating cuz it gets people nowhere. If you dont believe something exists are you gonna find it? think about that. I'm done. Believe what you want.
God Bless. I'm praying for all of you.:)

But if i had to stab myself with a knife and live i could with enough faith.

No you couldn't.

Not necessarily. It would mean it was that christian's time to die.

So good christians ought to stab themselves because if it's their time to die, they certainly don't want to be late for their appointment and if it isn't, then God won't let them die.

What I can't figure out is why suicide is a sin then. :confused:

But we run into 'free will' again. If you can't kill yourself, you never had it.

It's a bit of a 'withc-trial' problem, unfortunately - the only way to PROVE you're a Christian, is to try to kill yourself. If you're REALLY a Christian - you'll survive (unless Christianity itself is wrong).

If you die - it means either Christianity is a lie, or YOUR christianity is.

Bit of a fucking no win scenario.

No wonder the Bible discourages tests of faith.

God Bless. I'm praying for all of you.:)

Why? I doubt you'll change God's mind. ;)

Bible credited with saving soldier's life (http://www.oleantimesherald.com/articles/2007/08/07/news/doc46b8e0a9ac319036285290.txt)

ANDOVER - An Andover man serving in Iraq credits divine intervention for saving his life after getting shot this past Wednesday.
...
The bullet from the high-powered rifle would have likely ricocheted off his protective armor and re-entered his chest had it not been stopped by the small Army-issue Bible in his pocket, she added. None of his internal organs were hit by the bullet.

Evidence of a) god and/or b) the need for shock absorbent material on the inside of armour.

How is that evidence of god? The book could have been any book, or a rolled up porno. What took the impact of the hit, was the inside of the armour.

And dont question what i do and dont know about God or the Bible

And once again, a Christian tells people not to question.

And You have read my holy book?


Oh my yes, hundreds - maybe thousands - of times. In English, in French in German. In Latin. In Hebrew and Greek.

I have maybe a dozen different English translations. I have two French translations.


And dont question what i do and dont know about God or the Bible, cuz i'm a pastors son.


I am a carpenter's son. I know almost fuck-all about carpentry.

Your dad's job is not a qualification of YOUR ability.


I hate debating cuz it gets people nowhere.


It gets YOU nowhere, because you're not here to debate, but to preach.

I've learned a lot from debate.


If you dont believe something exists are you gonna find it?


The evidence?

You don't have to believe there's a dog on your deck to find a dog on your deck.


think about that. I'm done. Believe what you want.


I've thought about it. For decades.

Why don't YOU think about THAT?


God Bless. I'm praying for all of you.:)

Interesting that you make praying for someone into an insult. Says a lot about you, as a Christian.

If you die - it means either Christianity is a lie, or YOUR christianity is.


There's a third possibility: God wanted you to kill yourself.

And dont question what i do and dont know about God or the Bible,
I'll question anything as much as I want, thank you very much.
Believe what you want.
I will, and I won't waste time believing anything you write.
God Bless. I'm praying for all of you.:)
You think that will help anyone on this forum?

There's a third possibility: God wanted you to kill yourself.

Again... wouldn't that conflict with free will?

Again... wouldn't that conflict with free will?

You're right. Maybe God didn't want you to kill yourself. He just expected it and let it happen. :p

How is that evidence of god? The book could have been any book, or a rolled up porno. What took the impact of the hit, was the inside of the armour.

I was just being annoying.

I was looking up proof that the whole Bible can stop a bulet thing to see if it was a myth (mythbusters alleges that it will only stop .22 caliber bullets and smaller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(season_2)#What_is_Bulletproof.3F))and I found that.

Sure, you could consider it evidence of god, like his mom did, or you could consider it evidence of the need for shock absorbent material on the inside of the armour.

I'd love to see a soldier be all 'porno saved my life!'.

I'd love to see a soldier be all 'porno saved my life!'.

Double fun if it was gay porn. ;)

Type this URL in your Browser address bar (Remove the Spaces):

tinyurl .com /d9mzns

This is absolutely HILARIOUS.

Comedy Videos from Edward Current on YouTube, related to the current discussion. Especially watch this one:

tinyurl .com /8oz9dx

You're right. Maybe God didn't want you to kill yourself. He just expected it and let it happen. :p

Sounds more likely. He'd probably look at that kind of nehaviour and say "Wow, this is not who I want repping me'.

Imagine the look of surprise, though, when god lets someone kill themselves despite their faith, just because they're acting like a douche.

I was just being annoying.


:)

I'm a firm believer in iconoclasm. I believe it's the ultimate support archetype of society, and it's a role I long ago adopted as mine.

I don't mind someone tearing down my facades, looking for truth - which is how I usually consider your posts. :)


I was looking up proof that the whole Bible can stop a bulet thing to see if it was a myth (mythbusters alleges that it will only stop .22 caliber bullets and smaller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(season_2)#What_is_Bulletproof.3F))and I found that.

Sure, you could consider it evidence of god, like his mom did, or you could consider it evidence of the need for shock absorbent material on the inside of the armour.


I'm going with the latter. :)


I'd love to see a soldier be all 'porno saved my life!'.

I doubt it would make good copy in the Christian press. :D

Double fun if it was gay porn. ;)

I can see the headline.

"Hard Black Cocks Saved My Life'

i can see the headline.

"hard black cocks saved my life'

rofl.

The child dying of incurable cancer has commited less sin than many others who are walking around without cancer. If pain and suffering are a product of sin, then it is being handed out in a rather unbalanced manner. After all, serial rapists and killers aren't filling the cancer wards, are they?

That seems like odd behaviour for an omnibenevolent diety.



One would think that an omnibenevolent deity would want to mete out hardship and cultivate these traits without allowing things like genocide, child abuse, and chronic and painful disease. And that an omnipotent being could do so.


so - what, people have NO responsibility in these things??

God himself never metes out genocide, or child abuse. People do these things. And here's the thing: if we have free will, true free will, He will let us make these choices.

And re: rapists and cancer: sometimes our hardships are not a result of OUR sin. The whole book of Job is a dissertation about how the righteous suffer, not the unrighteous. A person who has cancer doesn't necessarily have cancer due to their sin.

If you push hard enough, you will shit gold. Don't believe it? Give it a try.

wow, that was a profound, life-changing and thoughful response...

... umm.... actually, what you said made no sense what so ever.

1 & 2 -Ok - for starters... by definition "infinity" isn't a "long time" at all, if you understand infinity as a dimension in which time does even exist. (star trek fans: ref: the wormhole aliens, DS-9: time was non-linear for them, and they had a hard time understanding the concept).

btw - no I didn't get this understanding from Star Trek. It's in the bible:

Scripture says, "In the beginning, God created..." everything God created existed in a realm outside himself. Therefore, if He exists in "infinity" -- the very first thing he created was a "beginning," meaning a reference of time, when something wasn't, and then it was.

Linear time was the first thing God created - a realm outside His own, into which He revealed Himself through His creation.

3 - just for the sake of amusing discussion: what makes you think we've seen all that He has created??? Underachiever - let's see YOU make a star!!:D

You boring bible bashing humourless freak. 1&2 are playful setups for 3.
I'm sure you read the bible, but that's your mistake if you read the old test.
It's designed to be sung not read. It has poetic license, deliberatly open to interpretation. You can twist it to mean whatever suits your needs.

I have created many stars and many worlds - prove I haven't. Clearly you lack faith in me. Does your lack of faith in my claim prove I haven't done as I say?

I was having an argument with my friend today about god. There was no way that he could prove that god existed, but there was also no way that I could prove he didn't. He kept using the lame "the bible proves god exists" argument. I was wondering if any of you could prove that god exists or not.

It is a sign of the terrible state of education, that somebody old enough to type on a computer can actually be asking this question.

so - what, people have NO responsibility in these things??

Um...no, actually, people have no responsibility for handing out cancer. Did you even read his post?

It is a sign of the terrible state of education, that somebody old enough to type on a computer can actually be asking this question.

I don't follow. (Though that probably proves your point)

I don't follow. (Though that probably proves your point)

Yeah me neither! *shrug* In answer to your question thouhg, and I guess by now it is plainly obvious, no we cannot

She means that someone who has the mental capacity to type on a computer shouldn't be dumb enough to believe in God. Which I think is harsh.

I'm not denying that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but I ain't stupid enough to believe that shit.

I'm not denying that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but I ain't stupid enough to believe that shit.

Heheh very strange, as I'm both old and intelegent enough to use a 'puter and yest I belive in 'that shit'

Really, I do hope that you are not equateing belief in God with a lack of intelegence?

I don't follow. (Though that probably proves your point)
Asking if "god" can be proven is (or at least should be) entry-level logic.

"God" is not defined. Like, at all. I mean, we have about 700000 different definitions of "god," but there is no agreed-upon definition of the term. So no, you can't prove or disprove something that is undefined.

More importantly, every definition of "god" that I've encountered involves something supernatural. This means that no proof or disproof will ever be possible even if one definition of God COULD be agreed upon, because supernatural hoo-hah is purely subjective. You can produce a zillion pounds of concrete disproof, but all the god-believer has to say is that Satan made that evidence for you to find, and PRESTO! you're back at square one.

Heheh very strange, as I'm both old and intelegent enough to use a 'puter and yest I belive in 'that shit'
Haven't heard that one before.
Really, I do hope that you are not equateing belief in God with a lack of intelegence?

A lack of common sense then.

Lol at the irony at misspelling that.:p

She means that someone who has the mental capacity to type on a computer shouldn't be dumb enough to believe in God. Which I think is harsh.
Nope.

Nope.

Yeah, I just realised that.

Haven't heard that one before.


A lack of common sense then.

Lol at the irony at misspelling that.:p

Meh! Speiling mistakes coz of the dyslexcia thingy, lack of common sense huh?

Can you then define the term 'common sense' for me?:D

Asking if "god" can be proven is (or at least should be) entry-level logic.

"God" is not defined. Like, at all. I mean, we have about 700000 different definitions of "god," but there is no agreed-upon definition of the term. So no, you can't prove or disprove something that is undefined.

More importantly, every definition of "god" that I've encountered involves something supernatural. This means that no proof or disproof will ever be possible even if one definition of God COULD be agreed upon, because supernatural hoo-hah is purely subjective. You can produce a zillion pounds of concrete disproof, but all the god-believer has to say is that Satan made that evidence for you to find, and PRESTO! you're back at square one.

I know it's pretty much impossible to prove it either way, I just wanted to hear peoples arguments. Though if you cannot prove something exists- then why believe it?

Lol at the irony at misspelling that.:p

You complaining about spelling? Pot calling the kettle black, some might say.

Meh! Speiling mistakes coz of the dyslexcia thingy, lack of common sense huh?
I'm dyslexic too. But now I've got Google Chrome which has a good spell checker. And of course I learnt to concentrate more on here (/IRK)
Can you then define the term 'common sense' for me?:D

Arrgh! Give me a minute.

I know it's pretty much impossible to prove it either way, I just wanted to hear peoples arguments. Though if you cannot prove something exists- then why believe it?

If you can't prove something doesn't exist then why not believe it?

I know it's pretty much impossible to prove it either way, I just wanted to hear peoples arguments. Though if you cannot prove something exists- then why believe it?

Heh I well understood you intent ( I belive Bottle also did but she does like to be ansy from time to time), streching your phiolsophical muscles is a good thing, so do carry on.

Can you prove that an orange (the fruit) exists?

And of course I learnt to concentrate more on here

You learnt, or you were taught?:p

I know it's pretty much impossible to prove it either way, I just wanted to hear peoples arguments. Though if you cannot prove something exists- then why believe it?
I'm a scientist so I can't technically "prove" anything, and I've long since come to terms with that. I simply have a standard for when I believe there is sufficient evidence to believe that something is the case.

But to answer you more directly, there are a great many reasons why people choose to believe in God:

1) Because the values and moral system they have chosen to live with require god-belief.
2) Because their community places high value on god-belief.
3) Because they cannot come to terms with the limitations of their own understanding, so they use "god did it" as a band-aid.
4) Because believing in god allows them to believe that there is a form of cosmic justice which will straighten out all inequities eventually.
5) Because god-belief often includes belief in an afterlife, and many people are very worried about death.

There's more, of course, but you get the idea.

Yay. Peeps is back

Yay. Peeps is back

We have a thread for just that sort of celebration.

Yay. Peeps is back

Heh indeed!:D

If you can't prove something doesn't exist then why not believe it?
Well, if that wasn't the most obvious response I've ever heard.
Heh I well understood you intent ( I belive Bottle also did but she does like to be ansy from time to time), streching your phiolsophical muscles is a good thing, so do carry on.

Can you prove that an orange (the fruit) exists?
Well, I'm holding one. But I guess that doesn't prove it. But, then again can you prove anything? Can you prove that you exist?
You learnt, or you were taught?:p
The latter.:p
I'm a scientist so I can't technically "prove" anything, and I've long since come to terms with that. I simply have a standard for when I believe there is sufficient evidence to believe that something is the case.

But to answer you more directly, there are a great many reasons why people choose to believe in God:

1) Because the values and moral system they have chosen to live with require god-belief.
2) Because their community places high value on god-belief.
3) Because they cannot come to terms with the limitations of their own understanding, so they use "god did it" as a band-aid.
4) Because believing in god allows them to believe that there is a form of cosmic justice which will straighten out all inequities eventually.
5) Because god-belief often includes belief in an afterlife, and many people are very worried about death.

There's more, of course, but you get the idea.

Why would you pick a profession where nothing is certain? That's what I never understood about you scientists.

2) So it's peer pressure?
3) So faith is caused by ignorance?
4) Well is there anyone that stupid?
5) So fear? They're afraid of death so they take up religion? I can understand that.

Why would you pick a profession where nothing is certain? That's what I never understood about you scientists.

Can't speak for anybody else, but I was raised a scientist. It wouldn't matter what my job was, I'd always be one. :P


2) So it's peer pressure?

I'd say it's a bit deeper than that. Humans are a profoundly social species, after all, and only a very small percentage of humans are immune to the desire for community and companionship.


3) So faith is caused by ignorance?

Faith is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. So, technically speaking, faith kind of requires ignorance; if you have logical proof or material evidence of something, then believing in it is not "faith."


4) Well is there anyone that stupid?

Nothing "stupid" about wanting there to be justice in the world. The world is a terribly unfair place, and it's perfectly reasonable for people to wish that it were otherwise.


5) So fear? They're afraid of death so they take up religion? I can understand that.
Some people do fear death enough that they cling to religion or spirituality so they can believe that they will live on forever or be reborn or whathaveyou. Not all religious people feel this way, however.

Well, I'm holding one. But I guess that doesn't prove it. But, then again can you prove anything? Can you prove that you exist?

And there it is! We all take certian principles or certian types of knowledge on faith. I guess I could tell you how far away from the Earth the sun is, and claim it as emprical truth, yet I have not myself performed even one experiment to find this measurement. Instead I take it as true that what I have been taught is so.


2) So it's peer pressure?
3) So faith is caused by ignorance?
4) Well is there anyone that stupid?
5) So fear? They're afraid of death so they take up religion? I can understand that.[/QUOTE]


2) Could be
3) Not at all
4) There are plenty of stupid peole around, and as an aside can I claim that your ignorance of the reasons some people belive in God shows your own stupidity?
5) For some that could also be true.

There are many and varied reasons why people belive in God.

And there it is! We all take certian principles or certian types of knowledge on faith. I guess I could tell you how far away from the Earth the sun is, and claim it as emprical truth, yet I have not myself performed even one experiment to find this measurement. Instead I take it as true that what I have been taught is so.

While your over-all point is valid, your example is not.

There's a massive difference between "I have been told how I could prove or disprove X, I simply have chosen not to do so" and "I have never been given any means by which I could prove or disprove X."

If you wanted, you COULD use any number of methods to disprove the current methods of measuring the distance from the Earth to the Sun. You simply haven't bothered yet.

That's very different from, say, trying to prove or disprove "god," given that not one religion in the history of humanity has provided a single testable, falsifiable hypothesis to permit this.

I'd say it's a bit deeper than that. Humans are a profoundly social species, after all, and only a very small percentage of humans are immune to the desire for community and companionship.
There is a difference between companionship and herd mentality.

Faith is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. So, technically speaking, faith kind of requires ignorance; if you have logical proof or material evidence of something, then believing in it is not "faith."
I can't believe something like that though. I need evidence. I can't even trust science, as there's no proof.

Nothing "stupid" about wanting there to be justice in the world. The world is a terribly unfair place, and it's perfectly reasonable for people to wish that it were otherwise.
It's quite a naive mind set( that's right, a 15 year old called someone naive). There is no set "right" and "wrong". Who should judge people?

Some people do fear death enough that they cling to religion or spirituality so they can believe that they will live on forever or be reborn or whathaveyou. Not all religious people feel this way, however.
Meh, death doesn't phase me. (though I don't want to die, yet)

While your over-all point is valid, your example is not.

There's a massive difference between "I have been told how I could prove or disprove X, I simply have chosen not to do so" and "I have never been given any means by which I could prove or disprove X."

If you wanted, you COULD use any number of methods to disprove the current methods of measuring the distance from the Earth to the Sun. You simply haven't bothered yet.

That's very different from, say, trying to prove or disprove "god," given that not one religion in the history of humanity has provided a single testable, falsifiable hypothesis to permit this.

All of which is very true Bottle, but I'm sure that you'll appreciate how hard it is to find an example that fits 100%with the concept of God and belife in such a concept. It appears that there really is nothing similar.

All of which is very true Bottle, but I'm sure that you'll appreciate how hard it is to find an example that fits 100%with the concept of God and belife in such a concept. It appears that there really is nothing similar.
Are you kidding?

-Elves
-Centaurs
-Unicorns
-Ghosts
-Demons
-Past lives
-Reincarnation
-"Mystical" healings (usually involving the application of pretty stones or crystals)
-Leprechauns
-Fairies
-ESP and "mind powers"

Again, I could keep listing. There are many, many other analogies to god-belief that would be accurate.

The problem is that your statement wasn't true the way you are thinking of it being true.

We all must take some things on "faith" in the sense that we must accept a few basic premises in order to function. Such as, the premise that we actually do exist, the premise that our physical senses are reporting at least somewhat accurately about the reality around us, etc. But accepting those starting points isn't actually analogous to the kind of "faith" you are talking about.

Your example pretty nicely illustrated the opposite of the point I think you were trying to make, actually:

You, and many people like you, choose to believe in something for which you not only do not have any evidence, but for which no conclusive evidence can be provided.

However, "we" don't all have that kind of "faith." In fact, a great many of us decline to believe in things for which there can be no proof or disproof.

In other words, you claimed that all people share the kind of "faith" you feel, it's simply that we feel it about different things. That is false.

There is a difference between companionship and herd mentality.

Hint: calling believers "sheep" or implying that they are other herd animals is the behavior of most young, immature atheists. In other words, it is herd-behavior.


I can't believe something like that though. I need evidence. I can't even trust science, as there's no proof.

Evidence =/= proof.

You might want proof, but you're not going to get it. Indeed, if you fixate on this need for "proof" of things then I can personally guarantee that you will end up believing in God/gods/supernatural hoohah eventually. In your case probably not any conventional god, but I'd guess maybe something like alien abductions or ESP or something along those lines.


It's quite a naive mind set( that's right, a 15 year old called someone naive). There is no set "right" and "wrong". Who should judge people?

You're right, you are naive for thinking that. Nobody was talking about there being a set "right" or "wrong." I was talking about people having internal sense of justice which the universe violates, and how it's perfectly reasonable for people to want the universe to conform to their internal conscience.


Meh, death doesn't phase me. (though I don't want to die, yet)
That's nice.

Are you kidding?

-Elves
-Centaurs
-Unicorns
-Ghosts
-Demons
-Past lives
-Reincarnation
-"Mystical" healings (usually involving the application of pretty stones or crystals)
-Leprechauns
-Fairies
-ESP and "mind powers"

Again, I could keep listing. There are many, many other analogies to god-belief that would be accurate.

The problem is that your statement wasn't true the way you are thinking of it being true.

We all must take some things on "faith" in the sense that we must accept a few basic premises in order to function. Such as, the premise that we actually do exist, the premise that our physical senses are reporting at least somewhat accurately about the reality around us, etc. But accepting those starting points isn't actually analogous to the kind of "faith" you are talking about.

Your example pretty nicely illustrated the opposite of the point I think you were trying to make, actually:

You, and many people like you, choose to believe in something for which you not only do not have any evidence, but for which no conclusive evidence can be provided.

However, "we" don't all have that kind of "faith." In fact, a great many of us decline to believe in things for which there can be no proof or disproof.

In other words, you claimed that all people share the kind of "faith" you feel, it's simply that we feel it about different things. That is false.
You missed out Vampires and Werewolves. Funnily enough, I know someone who believes in Vampires and God. Coincidence? I think not.

so - what, people have NO responsibility in these things??

God himself never metes out genocide, or child abuse. People do these things. And here's the thing: if we have free will, true free will, He will let us make these choices.

And re: rapists and cancer: sometimes our hardships are not a result of OUR sin. The whole book of Job is a dissertation about how the righteous suffer, not the unrighteous. A person who has cancer doesn't necessarily have cancer due to their sin.

God, who is supposedly omnipotent and omnibenevolent, also allows genocide and child abuse. He also allows that child to have painful incurable cancer, which is something that can not be blamed on free will. So this relationship between pain and suffering and free will seems tenuous at best.

It seems contradictory for an omnibenevolent and omnipotent god to make the righteous suffer instead of the evil. This is, to put it bluntly, illogical.

So, we can either believe that god is not omnipotent and omnibenevolent, or we can just live with the logical contradiction by simply assuming that 'god works in mysterious ways'.

Are you kidding?

-Elves
....

In other words, you claimed that all people share the kind of "faith" you feel, it's simply that we feel it about different things. That is false.

I was under the impression that the claim was that all people do believe in something that cannot be proven or disproven. And I think this is true. Those of us who are born skeptics try to get rid of these things as much as we can, but we all end up having to accept certain assumptions as true.

Faith is sometimes a necessary evil. (http://web.utk.edu/~dhasting/Basic_Assumptions_of_Science.htm)

Hint: calling believers "sheep" or implying that they are other herd animals is the behavior of most young, immature atheists. In other words, it is herd-behavior.
Ha, I'm not immature or atheist. But calling them sheep fitted with your analysis of religion.

Evidence =/= proof.

You might want proof, but you're not going to get it. Indeed, if you fixate on this need for "proof" of things then I can personally guarantee that you will end up believing in God/gods/supernatural hoohah eventually. In your case probably not any conventional god, but I'd guess maybe something like alien abductions or ESP or something along those lines.
Possibly, possibly. Who knows, one day I might lose my senses.

You're right, you are naive for thinking that. Nobody was talking about there being a set "right" or "wrong." I was talking about people having internal sense of justice which the universe violates, and how it's perfectly reasonable for people to want the universe to conform to their internal conscience.
But that's not how the world is. They're deluding themselves. Some people just get away with shit.

I was under the impression that the claim was that all people do believe in something that cannot be proven or disproven. And I think this is true. Those of us who are born skeptics try to get rid of these things as much as we can, but we all end up having to accept certain assumptions as true.

I think this is more a case of unclear semantics than anything else. "Belief" and "faith" are used very broadly and I think that leads to a muddling of what is going on.

For instance, there's that old argument about whether it counts as "faith" to believe that the sun will rise in the morning. Technically speaking, we have no proof that this will occur simply because it has always occurred in the past, so doesn't it count as "faith"?

I find these arguments dull because they're simply a game of making "faith" as broad a term as possible so that you can claim that everybody has "faith." Yes, all humans could be said to be "taking it on faith" that we aren't just a figment of Xeno's imagination, since we can't PROVE otherwise, but that's such a watering down of "faith" that it makes the word useless for any serious discussions. Which is dull, so let's not.

This process also glosses over the fact that there is one hell of a massive difference between accepting an assumption for functional or pragmatic reasons and accepting an unnecessary assumption for any of a host of other reasons.

I view "faith" as the term that applies to elective beliefs. The fundamental assumptions about reality which are required for any human being to function...that's a different subject entirely.

I think this is more a case of unclear semantics than anything else. "Belief" and "faith" are used very broadly and I think that leads to a muddling of what is going on.

...

I view "faith" as the term that applies to elective beliefs. The fundamental assumptions about reality which are required for any human being to function...that's a different subject entirely.

Yes. That distinction makes sense.

Ha, I'm not immature or atheist. But calling them sheep fitted with your analysis of religion.

Wrong. Herd mentality is quite different from what I was talking about. Indeed, my entire point was that an individual can, quite reasonably, figure out that it is in their own best interests to adhere to various values that their community holds.

It can, of course, also just be pure habit. Which isn't necessarily anything to do with herd behavior, but rather could simply be individual patterns that some people don't bother to break. Most people don't worry about trying to change a habit unless that habit somehow interferes with their lives. That's perfectly rational; if it ain't broke, why fix it?


But that's not how the world is. They're deluding themselves. Some people just get away with shit.
You're missing the point. Those who believe in some sort of supernatural justice aren't usually denying that "some people just get away with shit" on Earth. The point is to believe that there is an additional level of justice that occurs in the supernatural realm. Since there is no proof or disproof of this either way, some people figure that they might as well believe in whatever "feels" right.

Are you kidding?

-Elves
-Centaurs
-Unicorns
-Ghosts
-Demons
-Past lives
-Reincarnation
-"Mystical" healings (usually involving the application of pretty stones or crystals)
-Leprechauns
-Fairies
-ESP and "mind powers"

Hey Bottle,

On the surface it seems that either you didn't grasp what I mean or I was unsucsseful in my comunicatuons. But then you write:


We all must take some things on "faith" in the sense that we must accept a few basic premises in order to function. Such as, the premise that we actually do exist, the premise that our physical senses are reporting at least somewhat accurately about the reality around us, etc. But accepting those starting points isn't actually analogous to the kind of "faith" you are talking about.

Which clearly shows you did get the essance of what I said.

As to this:


You, and many people like you, choose to believe in something for which you not only do not have any evidence, but for which no conclusive evidence can be provided.

let us not start again on the differance between evidance and proof, surfice to say that I have all of the (subjective)evidance I require for my belife.


However, "we" don't all have that kind of "faith." In fact, a great many of us decline to believe in things for which there can be no proof or disproof.

In other words, you claimed that all people share the kind of "faith" you feel, it's simply that we feel it about different things. That is false.

Ahh so you differentiat between my faith and yours? Why? The word 'Faith' somehow takes on a diffent meaning in regard to God?

I have faith that God exists, and you have faith that certian scientific principles are correct. Really, where is the differance in the meaning of the word there? Is it just that for some reason you dislike the idea of you having faith that you bring sementic gameplay into it?