NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7969463.stm


No talks on Falklands, says Brown
Argentine president Christina Fernandez and Prime Minister Gordon Brown
The talks between Mr Brown and Ms Fernandez were 'constructive'

Gordon Brown has rejected calls from Argentina for talks over the future sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.

The prime minister turned down a request for discussions on the islands' status at a meeting with Argentine president Christina Fernandez.

The two met for talks in Chile, where Mr Brown is meeting leaders ahead of next week's London G20 summit.

Argentina has maintained claims to the islands, over which both countries went to war in 1982.

Speaking after the meeting, Argentine Foreign Minister Jorge Taiana said Ms Fernandez had pressed the issue of the Falkland Islands, which are referred to in Spanish as the Malvinas.

'Differences of opinion

"The president stated with great clarity and firmness the need for the United Kingdom to do what the United Nations has asked and to hold talks to find a solution to a sovereignty conflict between the United Kingdom and Argentina over the Malvinas," Mr Taiana said.

A British official said Mr Brown had "set out the British government's long-standing position on sovereignty in very clear terms".

"He emphasised the importance of self-determination. Both sides agreed that they have differences of opinion," the official said.

Mr Brown and Ms Fernandez touched on the issue of the Falkland Islands for 15 minutes during their meeting, which lasted for almost 40 minutes.

Global solution

The two leaders also discussed flights between Argentina and the Falkland Islands, during negotiations which were described by Britain as "constructive".

The Argentine talks came after the prime minister visited Strasbourg, New York, Brazil and Chile in an attempt to drum up support before the G20 meeting.

On Friday, Chile's president Michelle Bachelet told Mr Brown her country had "saved in the good times" in order to spend in the bad.

BBC political editor Nick Robinson said Ms Bachelet's comments echoed Tory criticisms and she appeared to be unaware of how unwelcome they would be.

Ms Bachelet warmly endorsed Mr Brown's leadership of the G20 and his efforts to seek a global solution to global economic problems, our correspondent said.

She also called for those countries involved to agree to a co-ordinated fiscal stimulus at their conference in London next week.

But she went on to say that because of decisions made in the good times, Chile had prepared for the bad.

Mr Brown responded by insisting that the International Monetary Fund believed the UK was better prepared than most countries for the economic crisis.

During Mr Brown's visit to Brazil, the Brazilian president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva raised eyebrows when he claimed the financial crisis was caused by "white, blue-eyed people".

So, who should the Falklands belong to? Why? Whose decision should it be?

I truly think Las Malvinas should belong to Argentina. I mean, they're close and obviously want the piece of land. In any case, with global warming, Las Malvinas will soon be claimed by the sea so, who cares?

The British own the Falklands, after all they successfully defended it in 1982 to maintain possession of the islands and should remain theirs. If anyone is to decide on who it belongs to should be left solely to them. Unless Mother England has some mother which can override their decisions.

I truly think Las Malvinas should belong to Argentina. I mean, they're close and obviously want the piece of land. In any case, with global warming, Las Malvinas will soon be claimed by the sea so, who cares?

Canada is close to the United States, and the United States wants the land.

Ergo, Canada should belong to the United States.

I truly think Las Malvinas should belong to Argentina. I mean, they're close and obviously want the piece of land.

But nobody who lives there is Argentinian, or wants to be ruled by Argentina.

An overwhelming majority of the local population want to remain under British rule, instead of becoming Argentinean: Shouldn't that be what matters?

I truly think Las Malvinas should belong to Argentina. I mean, they're closeThe islands are located in the same ocean as Britain, that's close enough for our claim. ;)

But nobody who lives there is Argentinian, or wants to be ruled by Argentina.

Then let it go free. *shrugs*

You forgot one option in the poll: they should be nuked down to a few meters below sea level, so there's nothing left to quarrel about.
Same should have been done with Kardak/Imia, the Spratleys, Northern Ireland, ah, well, about half the world, I guess... :tongue:

You forgot one option in the poll: they should be nuked down to a few meters below sea level, so there's nothing left to quarrel about.
Same should have been done with Kardak/Imia, the Spratleys, Northern Ireland, ah, well, about half the world, I guess... :tongue:

:eek2:

In any case, with global warming, Las Malvinas will soon be claimed by the sea so, who cares?

You expect a 700 meter sea level rise any day soon? :D

Then let it go free. *shrugs*

What if the islands do not wish for independence? It is entirely feasible that they want to remain a dependency of the United Kingdom, isn't it?

Then let it go free. *shrugs*

But why? Almost all, if not all, of the population want to remain with the U.K.

I truly think Las Malvinas should belong to Argentina. I mean, they're close and obviously want the piece of land. In any case, with global warming, Las Malvinas will soon be claimed by the sea so, who cares?


Absolutely not. Thats British territory for now and for always. Besides, the chief reason for the rapid deployment of the Royal Marines and Navy back in '82 was because the people on the island demanded that the government act and drive the Argentinians from the Islands. Save for a small minority of Scandinavians, they're almost all to the letter Scottish or some form of Celtic "immigrants" anyway. I say "immigrant" in that manner because they're emigrating from one British territory to another, not another country ;)

Absolutely not. Thats British territory for now and for always. Besides, the chief reason for the rapid deployment of the Royal Marines and Navy back in '82 was because the people on the island demanded that the government act and drive the Argentinians from the Islands.

Actually it was more that Thatcher considered it a personal insult and totally anti British.

Absolutely not. Thats British territory for now and for always.

Untrue. If the people of the Falklands ever vote to end their association with the UK, then the UK should and will honor that decision. They are only British territory through their own choice. They are free to choose otherwise at any time.

The people of the Falklands wish to remain British. That overrides any possible Argentine claim.

Untrue. If the people of the Falklands ever vote to end their association with the UK, then the UK should and will honor that decision. They are only British territory through their own choice. They are free to choose otherwise at any time.

Oh absolutely, but that is almost certainly not going to happen, hence the "for now and always" part.


EDIT: On second thought, that may very well not be true. The British government said something very similar to the Rhodesian people. My great grandparents, themselves Rhodesians, were very sore to find out that when the Rhodesian parliament asked for the independence they had been promised, they were denied. Saying and doing, in government, are two different things ;)

Actually it was more that Thatcher considered it a personal insult and totally anti British.

Thats very true, but they would have taken it slower had there not been such a massive demand for intervention on the part of the Falklands people. At least that was the opinion I got from the material I've read on the subject. *shrug*

Untrue. If the people of the Falklands ever vote to end their association with the UK, then the UK should and will honor that decision.

Not necessarily. For example the Scots held a referendum for their own parliament in 79 (I think 79), and the government ignored.

Obviously it should be British. Argentina has no real claim to the island as everyone there is British and wants to be British.

Why is this even an issue?

Why is this even an issue?

Because the Argentines keep making it an issue. Just like the Spanish with Gibraltar.

Because the Argentines keep making it an issue. Just like the Spanish with Gibraltar.


And the British are going to continue to laugh at them with gutteral chuckles for the next three thousand years.

Because the Argentines keep making it an issue. Just like the Spanish with Gibraltar.
Ridiculous. :p

And the British are going to continue to laugh at them with gutteral chuckles for the next three thousand years.

It's not so much funny as painfully embarrassing.

Because the Argentines keep making it an issue. Just like the Spanish with Gibraltar.

The population of which has also voted with overwhelming majority to remain part of the UK.

I went to the official sixth form of the Falkland Islands (in Winchester, Hampshire of all places - the islands don't have big enough population for a proper sixth form there). Pretty much all the falkland islanders there considered themselves British.

Obviously it should be British. Argentina has no real claim to the island as everyone there is British and wants to be British.

Why is this even an issue?

There's another solution: we should take Iceland, Bermuda, the Azores, the Canary Islands, Cape Verde, St. Helena, Ascension, Tristan da Cunha, Gough, the Falklands, South Georgia, and the whole lot other emerging mountain tops out there, stick 'em all in one administrative region, and call it, ow, idunno, the Atlantian Islands? :D

It's not so much funny as painfully embarrassing.


Quite right. But hey, thats their problem eh?

Ridiculous. :p

Exactly. Which is why I think everything in both dependencies should be painted red, white and blue, and God Save the Queen should be played at all airports/border crossings. Just to piss them off.

Exactly. Which is why I think everything in both dependencies should be painted red, white and blue, and God Save the Queen should be played at all airports/border crossings. Just to piss them off.

That would be AWESOME! :D

Not necessarily. For example the Scots held a referendum for their own parliament in 79 (I think 79), and the government ignored.

As I recall it was a precondition of the referendum that 40% of the voting population had to say yes for it to count, turnout was about 60% and yes won by a razor thing margin, so only ~30% of the voting population had voted yes and the criteria weren't met.

I support a penguin invasion to retake the island for Antarctica.

...everything in both dependencies should be painted red, white and blue...

To reaffirm them being Dutch?

The islands are British.

The war was the only good thing Thatcher did.

I support a penguin invasion to retake the island for Antarctica.

I could live with that.

I support a penguin invasion to retake the island for Antarctica.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3253/2901757434_ebbcfeb5ca.jpg?v=0

Quiet, you will reveal their secret plan.

To reaffirm them being Dutch?

I was thinking more Russia.

I support a penguin invasion to retake the island for Antarctica.

Well, I support a Warrah invasion to retake the islands for prehistory.

Exactly. Which is why I think everything in both dependencies should be painted red, white and blue, and God Save the Queen should be played at all airports/border crossings. Just to piss them off.
You'll get no opposition from me. I like you Brits. :p

I was thinking more Russia.
The Falklands SSR ?:p Falklanders of the islands, unite!
The war was the only good thing Thatcher did.
Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves, now.

Obviously it should be British. Argentina has no real claim to the island as everyone there is British and wants to be British.

Why is this even an issue?

They're sitting on oil.

They're sitting on oil.

Eh? No-one told me about this.

I was thinking more Russia.

No chance, they're white-blue-red, not red-white-blue. ;)

Eh? No-one told me about this.

Its deep sea oil, but yes, that region does have quite an abundance. Problem! Its extremely difficult, and expensive, to get to. Irony! Argentina makes the machinery that Britain uses to harvest this oil :tongue:

Eh? No-one told me about this.

Oh, silly, don't you know the Falklandians use oil drums for chairs?!

Oh, silly, don't you know the Falklandians use oil drums for chairs?!

I've never been there, so no.

Its deep sea oil, but yes, that region does have quite an abundance. Problem! Its extremely difficult, and expensive, to get to. Irony! Argentina makes the machinery that Britain uses to harvest this oil :tongue:

For the UK there is also the fact that ownership of the Falkland Islands gives them a claim on Antarctica. Yes, it's academic, but we need to plan for the future people!

For the UK there is also the fact that ownership of the Falkland Islands gives them a claim on Antarctica. Yes, it's academic, but we need to plan for the future people!

The Anarctic base in South Georgia, yes? I forgot what they call the base...not that it matters really. I don't quite understand what benefit is gotten from having it there, but oh well...

The Anarctic base in South Georgia, yes? I forgot what they call the base...not that it matters really. I don't quite understand what benefit is gotten from having it there, but oh well...

No. South Georgia and the South Sandwich islands are a dependency, just like the Falklands are. He's talking about the British Antarctic Territory.

No. South Georgia and the South Sandwich islands are a dependency, just like the Falklands are. He's talking about the British Antarctic Territory.

I know, but a lot of research is done also from a large Anarctic Base in South Georgia. I was simply pointing out that its a waste.

well if the Islands wish to cease being British they are more then welcome in the US. We could use those islands to interfere err spread democracy in Latin America.

I know, but a lot of research is done also from a large Anarctic Base in South Georgia. I was simply pointing out that its a waste.

Is it? You're not on about Grytviken, are you?

Is it? You're not on about Grytviken, are you?

I think that was it...

Well, I support a Warrah invasion to retake the islands for prehistory.

Warrahs are no match for penguins!

Warrahs are no match for penguins!

All hail the Great Guin!

I think that was it...

Well, it's a village, rather than a research base. I don't think there actually is a research base on South Georgia. You might be thinking South Shetlands or South Orkneys, though.

Warrahs are no match for penguins!

Warrahs are wolves, I think they can deal with penguins.

Because the Argentines keep making it an issue. Just like the Spanish with Gibraltar.

Pido tiempo igual para Gibraltar. <_<

We had a claim to it in the Middle Ages.

Well, it's a village, rather than a research base. I don't think there actually is a research base on South Georgia. You might be thinking South Shetlands or South Orkneys, though.


Then that wasn't it. There WAS a research base in South Georgia, though it might have been dismantled.

Pido tiempo igual para Gibraltar. <_<

We had a claim to it in the Middle Ages.


And I guess you all can have it in the Middle Ages. But in modernity: it's British.

And I guess you all can have it in the Middle Ages. But in modernity: it's British.

To our collective chagrin.
>_>
<_<

To our collective chagrin.
>_>
<_<

:( Sowwyyy

:( Sowwyyy

No worries there, I've come to terms with having the Brits so close on that side of the country too.

We had a claim to it in the Middle Ages.

And not anymore you don't. We had a claim to Calais in the Middle Ages, you don't see us whining about that.

And not anymore you don't. We had a claim to Calais in the Middle Ages, you don't see us whining about that.

You, sir, are threading dangerous ground. I happen to be carrying my stiletto with me and it has a poisoned tip.
<_<

You, sir, are threading dangerous ground. I happen to be carrying my stiletto with me and it has a poisoned tip.
<_<

I'm merely saying, Spain has as much claim to Gibraltar nowadays as we do to Calais.

Personally i think they should vote for independence and end the whole argument. I can't seeing it happening though so in the meantime i say they should remain British as they see themselves as brits and did ask for our help to drive the Argies back.

And not anymore you don't. We had a claim to Calais in the Middle Ages, you don't see us whining about that.

Yeah... but it's Calais! Why would we want it :p

I'm merely saying, Spain has as much claim to Gibraltar nowadays as we do to Calais.

Oye, pero... We can be nostalgic about our glorious past, right?:( Don't you English do so too?

No worries there, I've come to terms with having the Brits so close on that side of the country too.

What about when they invade your beaches every summer? :)

Oye, pero... We can be nostalgic about our glorious past, right?:( Don't you English do so too?

Not really. For the most part, the majority of us look back on the days of the Empire with shame and disgust.

Not really. For the most part, the majority of us look back on the days of the Empire with shame and disgust.

Really? Why? The Uk was in a much stronger position then it is now.

What about when they invade your beaches every summer? :)

You want to stoke my fire, don't you? I rue the day the British defeated our glorious Armada.:(

What can I say? I'm a bitch and I'm bitter.:tongue:

You want to stoke my fire, don't you? I rue the day the British defeated our glorious Armada.:(

Lol, you got annihilated that day. You never really had much luck with us, did you?

Really? Why? The Uk was in a much stronger position then it is now.

But we did some horrific things.

Lol, you got annihilated that day. You never really had much luck with us, did you?

No, we did not. We should have succeeded at killing that harlot, Elizabeth I. Pay back!

Don't mind me, I think I am raving and it's barely Monday.:$

You want to stoke my fire, don't you? I rue the day the British defeated our glorious Armada.:(

Oh, and by the way, it wasn't the British. There were no Scots, and as far as I know, no Welsh, in Drake's fleet. They did however play their part later, along with the Irish, in picking off shipwrecked survivors.

Oh, and by the way, it wasn't the British. There were no Scots, and as far as I know, no Welsh, in Drake's fleet. They did however play their part later, along with the Irish, in picking off shipwrecked survivors.

You have a problem with the "British" term, don't you?

Warrahs are wolves, I think they can deal with penguins.

Famous last words.

Pay back!

Pay back what? We're not paying anything until you give all that gold back to the Aztecs and Incas.

But we did some horrific things.

True but you also did some good things, one can look at the good things and admire them while also looking at the bad things and condemning them.

You have a problem with the "British" term, don't you?

When it's used incorrectly (and in most cases it is), yes I do.

Famous last words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AN5KpUecBs

Lol, you got annihilated that day. You never really had much luck with anyone except spear wielding Amerindians, did you?

Fixed.

True but you also did some good things, one can look at the good things and admire them while also looking at the bad things and condemning them.

The bad vastly outweighs the good. I mean look at Australia, FFS. We created a monster there. :p

Fixed.

Threadwin.

The bad vastly outweighs the good. I mean look at Australia, FFS. We created a monster there. :p

:D well maybe if you sent some better governors, we would never have had our only Military coup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AN5KpUecBs

Yay! :D

Pay back what? We're not paying anything until you give all that gold back to the Aztecs and Incas.

Strip all our church altars from it. Give Ireland back to the Irish and Scotland back to the Scots and then we can talk.:rolleyes:

When it's used incorrectly (and in most cases it is), yes I do.

Bah, the nationality issue is getting on my nerves. Yes, I am an Asturian, but I don't have a problem being referred to as Spaniard. I am from Spain so...

Oh, and by the way, it wasn't the British. There were no Scots, and as far as I know, no Welsh, in Drake's fleet. They did however play their part later, along with the Irish, in picking off shipwrecked survivors.

It would surprise me if there were no Welsh, since I'm pretty certain Wales was unified with England at the time.

Still, you did also own much of Belgium around the time, I'm sure you could have that back if you asked nicely :D:D

Bah, the nationality issue is getting on my nerves. Yes, I am an Asturian, but I don't have a problem being referred to as Spaniard. I am from Spain so...

Right, but it's different in Britain. It's not like Asturias, Andalusia, Cantabria etc were all separate countries, constantly warring with each and each with their own language. That's what it was like in Britain, so referring to Drake's Fleet as British makes no sense.

Strip all our church altars from it. Give Ireland back to the Irish and Scotland back to the Scots and then we can talk.:rolleyes:

We gave Ireland back to the Irish, the 6 northern counties voted not to become part of the Irish Free State, the Scots were given a parliament in 97, which the SNP are now in control of and pushing for a referendum. So you can take back all the Spaniards and people of Spanish descent from Latin America, and give it back to the Amerindians.

Right, but it's different in Britain. It's not like Asturias, Andalusia, Cantabria etc were all separate countries, constantly warring with each and each with their own language. That's what it was like in Britain, so referring to Drake's Fleet as British makes no sense.

Kingdoms that also fought a lot before Ferdinand I and Isabella "unified" the country. And even after that attempt, the nationalistic pride prevailed. The conflict still goes on. As for the "own language" reference, Asturias has it's own language, Cantabria does too, Andalucía does too so, what are you getting at?

We gave Ireland back to the Irish, the 6 northern counties voted not to become part of the Irish Free State, the Scots were given a parliament in 97, which the SNP are now in control of and pushing for a referendum. So you can take back all the Spaniards and people of Spanish descent from Latin America, and give it back to the Amerindians.

Tell that to the Latin Americans. They owe to us their culture and their language.:rolleyes:

Asturias has it's own language, Cantabria does too, Andalucía does too so, what are you getting at?

They have their own dialects. Welsh, English and Scots Gaelic are all totally separate, and the countries are different, even more so at the time of the failed Armada. And there's no apostrophe in its.

Tell that to the Latin Americans. They owe to us their culture and their language.:rolleyes:

They already had culture and language before you turned up and destroyed it.

They have their own dialects. Welsh, English and Scots Gaelic are all totally separate, and the countries are different, even more so at the time of the failed Armada. And there's no apostrophe in its.

Sub-languages, recognized officially by the Spanish government. Get your facts staright.

What, you don't think the provinces you're making allusion to were different at the time I'm making reference of?

Tell that to the Latin Americans. They owe to us their culture and their language.:rolleyes:

lolwut?

They owe you their culture and language? Was that before or after Spain completely decimated the existing cultures in Latin America?

They already had culture and language before you turned up and destroyed it.

we can say the same thing about your country. The Irish and the Scots also had their own culture and language before you came barging in and fucked it all up. Once again, what are you getting at?

My country sucked, yours did too.:rolleyes:

lolwut?

They owe you their culture and language? Was that before or after Spain completely decimated the existing cultures in Latin America?

Bad word choosing.

They have their own dialects. Welsh, English and Scots Gaelic are all totally separate, and the countries are different, even more so at the time of the failed Armada. And there's no apostrophe in its.

Actually I had thought the various parts of spain actually had a different language *checks the wiki*Yup, Catalan, Basque, Aranese and Galacian are different languages from Spanish.

Sub-languages, recognized officially by the Spanish government. Get your facts staright.

Dialect is another word for sub-language.

What, you don't think the provinces you're making allusion to were different at the time I'm making reference of?

Oh yes, they were different, but not nearly as different as the countries in Britain. Why is it so hard for foreigners to understand that the 3 countries are completely different?

Dialect is another word for sub-language.

Not in Spanish, no it isn't.

Oh yes, they were different, but not nearly as different as the countries in Britain. Why is it so hard for foreigners to understand that the 3 countries are completely different?

I can understand that perfectly well, you're the one who seems to not be understanding.

The Irish and the Scots also had their own culture and language before you came barging in and fucked it all up.

Still do have their own culture, some still speak the different dialects of Gaelic. Anyway, it was the French Normans who invaded Ireland, we just continued the rule, and the Scots started it with their border raids.

Still do have their own culture, some still speak the different dialects of Gaelic. Anyway, it was the French Normans who invaded Ireland, we just continued the rule, and the Scots started it with their border raids.

Adunabar, I hate having these arguments with you. Sheesh.:(

Not in Spanish, no it isn't.

But I'm not currently conversing in Spanish, so who gives a shit?

I can understand that perfectly well, you're the one who seems to not be understanding.

Ok, sure.

They have their own dialects. Welsh, English and Scots Gaelic are all totally separate, and the countries are different, even more so at the time of the failed Armada. And there's no apostrophe in its.

As I recall at the time of the armada Wales was legally part of England.

But nevertheless the fleet was British. Even if somehow you can show that there were 0 non-English people in the fleet that merely makes it British and English. The one being inside the other.

Adunabar, I hate having these arguments with you. Sheesh.:(

Then admit defeat.

But I'm not currently conversing in Spanish, so who gives a shit?

I give a shit, so back off.

As I recall at the time of the armada Wales was legally part of England.

But would they have used Welsh sailors?

Then admit defeat.

No one is defeated here. You are as wrong as me, in my mind, as I am in yours. It's not advisable to spit oon my eye when yours is equally spittable at. Spain made a lot of mistakes, but guess what? So did England. Do you have the guts to accept that?

I give a shit, so back off.

But the Spanish word dialect, or dialecto or whatever the fuck you call it in Spanish has fuck all to do with the English word, and is therefore irrelevant to this conversation.

But would they have used Welsh sailors?

*shrugs* why not. I was being pedantic.

But the Spanish word dialect, or dialecto or whatever the fuck you call it in Spanish has fuck all to do with the English word, and is therefore irrelevant to this conversation.

Oh, for fuck's sake!

Spain made a lot of mistakes, but guess what? So did England. Do you have the guts to accept that?

Well if you look a few posts back, you'll see I clearly do.

Well if you look a few posts back, you'll see I clearly do.

I did see that. You, on the other hand, seem content to point the mistakes of my own country to me.

Oh, for fuck's sake!

What now? You brought up some crap about it meaning a different thing in Spanish, I told you that has nothing to do with this conversation. You can't seriously be complaining about that, can you?

The Falklands will remain British. We have more then enough of a navy to defend them again if this turns in to a military matter.

The silly Argentinian president will have to get used to being told no. The thought of her walking in to that room that BBC News showed, in her pink outfit still makes me giggle.

Meh, the Argentinians hate her. Mention Cristina to them and watch them wretch.

What now? You brought up some crap about it meaning a different thing in Spanish, I told you that has nothing to do with this conversation. You can't seriously be complaining about that, can you?

I am not going to continue with this. I am tired.

Dialect is another word for sub-language.

Iirc there is no set definition of what makes something a language or a dialect.

I did see that. You, on the other hand, seem content to point the mistakes of my own country to me.

Because you claimed that your country "gave the Latin Americans their language and culture". That's bullshit, and I pointed that out to you. Then you brought up Ireland and shit.

I am not going to continue with this. I am tired.

And I'm ill, doesn't stop me.

Aren't the US obligated to go down there and kick the British out?

Isn't that the whole point of the Monroe Doctrine?

As I recall at the time of the armada Wales was legally part of England.

But nevertheless the fleet was British. Even if somehow you can show that there were 0 non-English people in the fleet that merely makes it British and English. The one being inside the other.

Are you seriously going to push this argument? So are you going to tell me if in the fleet there were a few French soldiers then it wasn't English but in fact British?

Considering during the time England and Scotland were two separate countries and the fleet was under control of the English government at the time then yes the fleet was English not British.

Aren't the US obligated to go down there and kick the British out?

Isn't that the whole point of the Monroe Doctrine?

But the Falklands had already been colonised by 1823.

Because you claimed that your country "gave the Latin Americans their language and culture". That's bullshit, and I pointed that out to you. Then you brought up Ireland and shit.


Unless I completely missed the point of this argument, she is kind of right...Spain did kind of give Latin America much of its cultural aspects and language structure. Few people still speak Aztec or Inca, but EVERYONE speaks Spanish.

I'm not saying that its 100%, Spanish influence is much stronger in Latin America than say, British influence (save Belize which is only recently non-British ;))

Aren't the US obligated to go down there and kick the British out?

Isn't that the whole point of the Monroe Doctrine?

Funny thing about the Monroe Doctrine, it was originally a joint British-American venture, then we decided to kick the British out of the agreement and make it a sole American venture. Additionally: its only applicable to situations that we find appropriate.

Unless I completely missed the point of this argument, she is kind of right...Spain did kind of give Latin America much of its cultural aspects and language structure. Few people still speak Aztec or Inca, but EVERYONE speaks Spanish.

I'm not saying that its 100%, Spanish influence is much stronger in Latin America than say, British influence (save Belize which is only recently non-British ;))

Yeah that kind of got worded wrong. I was meant to be pointing out how Spain ruined their languages and cultures etc.

But the Falklands had already been colonised by 1823.


The Falklands were originally colonized in 1770, but the claims were given up and not reasserted until 1830. Look up "Falklands Crisis of 1770" and "Reesertion of British Rule in the Falklands 1830" (:

Yeah that kind of got worded wrong. I was meant to be pointing out how Spain ruined their languages and cultures etc.


Oh okay, my bad bud! Sorry for butting in! :hail:

But the Falklands had already been colonised by 1823.

I hadn't heard that justification before. Especially because the Brits weren't actually on the islands then.

Yes, they had a plaque, but so did the French. And besides the Argentines were actually there between 1823 and 1833.

So, why didn't the US do something in 1833?

I hadn't heard that justification before. Especially because the Brits weren't actually on the islands then.

Yes, they had a plaque, but so did the French. And besides the Argentines were actually there between 1823 and 1833.

So, why didn't the US do something in 1833?


We didn't have the military capability. The Monroe Doctrine was a lot of Sabre Rattling and bluster. We hoped the British/French would leave Latin America alone, but we really weren't prepared to do anything about it until the 1890s when we kicked the Spanish out of the Carribean.

Are you seriously going to push this argument? So are you going to tell me if in the fleet there were a few French soldiers then it wasn't English but in fact British?

Considering during the time England and Scotland were two separate countries and the fleet was under control of the English government at the time then yes the fleet was English not British.

Actually I was arguing that even if the fleet was 100% English (which I'm skeptical of) it would still be British. Like how a Bulgarian army would also be a Balkan army. And that the 'English government' was the de jure ruler of England and Wales and the de facto ruler of Scotland British is not a terrible adjective.

And apparently we had dutch help aswell.

So, why didn't the US do something in 1833?

Because 1) They're hypocritical, and 2) They couldn't have kicked us out easily, if they had actually tried.

Actually I was arguing that even if the fleet was 100% English (which I'm skeptical of) it would still be British. Like how a Bulgarian army would also be a Balkan army. And that the 'English government' was the de jure ruler of England and Wales and the de facto ruler of Scotland British is not a terrible adjective.


The term British didn't come about until 1707, so anything after that and you've got a British fleet, not an English one. So, assuming that you, Forsakia my friend, are talking about the period after 1707, then you're correct.

the de facto ruler of Scotland

What? That's rubbish.

Unless I completely missed the point of this argument, she is kind of right...Spain did kind of give Latin America much of its cultural aspects and language structure. Few people still speak Aztec or Inca, but EVERYONE speaks Spanish.


Aztec? Inca? These are not languages.

Quechua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua), this is a language, spoken by 10 million people in various dialects throughout the Andes. K'iche' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%27iche%27_language) is a language with about a million speakers in Guatemala. Nahuatl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl) is a language, with over a million speakers in Mexico.

Sorry, that's like saying, 'people speak Mexican!'. Pet peeve.

Because 1) They're hypocritical, and 2) They couldn't have kicked us out easily, if they had actually tried.

We couldn't have done it at ALL. We didn't have the ships. American soldiers have always been superior to British ones, but American naval supremacy is a relatively recent development.

The term British didn't come about until 1707, so anything after that and you've got a British fleet, not an English one. So, assuming that you, Forsakia my friend, are talking about the period after 1707, then you're correct.

We're talking 1588.

Aztec? Inca? These are not languages.

Quechua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua), this is a language, spoken by 10 million people in various dialects throughout the Andes. K'iche' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%27iche%27_language) is a language with about a million speakers in Guatemala. Nahuatl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl) is a language, with over a million speakers in Mexico.

Sorry, that's like saying, 'people speak Mexican!'. Pet peeve.


No worries man, I actually appreciate it because I didn't know what the actual name for the languages were, just who spoke them. Technically speaking though, I was more trying to say "Aztec language" for example, applying more to the language spoken by an ethnic group, just didn't think to completely follow through.

Anyway thanks man, much appreciated. (:

We're talking 1588.

Then whoever said that it was a British fleet is sadly mistaken. The term of "British" would not even be a concept for another hundred years, and wouldn't be used for another hundred and twenty or so. It was still an English fleet, no matter who was onboard, be it English-dominated Scots, Irish, Welsh, or Cornish. Or hell full blooded Englishmen for that matter! lol

The term British didn't come about until 1707, so anything after that and you've got a British fleet, not an English one. So, assuming that you, Forsakia my friend, are talking about the period after 1707, then you're correct.

The term was around well before 1707. The union of the crowns was a formalisation of a pre-existing relationship. Britain as a concept was around at least since the Romans.

What? That's rubbish.
Overlord might be a better word for it.

Then whoever said that it was a British fleet is sadly mistaken. The term of "British" would not even be a concept for another hundred years, and wouldn't be used for another hundred and twenty or so. It was still an English fleet, no matter who was onboard, be it English-dominated Scots, Irish, Welsh, or Cornish. Or hell full blooded Englishmen for that matter! lol

That's why I said, and Nanatsu wouldn't believe me for some reason.

Overlord might be a better word for it.

Scotland was totally separate until 1603, and still an independent country until 1707. So you're wrong.

Scotland was totally separate until 1603, and still an independent country until 1707. So you're wrong.

Hence the term de facto. The way Elizabeth I ensured the Protestants came out superior and ended up executing Mary Queen of Scots might give you a hint of what I'm talking about.

Hence the term de facto. The way Elizabeth I ensured the Protestants came out superior and ended up executing Mary Queen of Scots might give you a hint of what I'm talking about.

I wouldn't go nearly as far as to suggest we were their overlords though, and that still doesn't change the fact that there weren't Scots in the English navy.

And I'm ill, doesn't stop me.

Once again, I am NOT going to continue with this. You're ill and you choose to continue, do so, nothing's stopping you.

The term was around well before 1707. The union of the crowns was a formalisation of a pre-existing relationship. Britain as a concept was around at least since the Romans.


Overlord might be a better word for it.


You're right, but I meant in British government. The term Britain as a state didn't come about until 1707. It was just the Kingdom of England before that.

That's why I said, and Nanatsu wouldn't believe me for some reason.


*shrug* No use arguing a moot point then eh? You ARE correct though. Anyway, as for your statement that there weren't Scots in the English navy...that might not be entirely accurate...most likely not but there were some smaller bands of Scottish who were under English dominion. Most of those were Presbyterian immigrants to Ireland which was, I believe, under English rule at the time.

Actually I was arguing that even if the fleet was 100% English (which I'm skeptical of) it would still be British. Like how a Bulgarian army would also be a Balkan army. And that the 'English government' was the de jure ruler of England and Wales and the de facto ruler of Scotland British is not a terrible adjective.

And apparently we had dutch help aswell.

So basically all you are trying to say is that it is a fleet that came from the British Isles, in the same way the Spanish Armada is a European Fleet.

Then whoever said that it was a British fleet is sadly mistaken. The term of "British" would not even be a concept for another hundred years, and wouldn't be used for another hundred and twenty or so. It was still an English fleet, no matter who was onboard, be it English-dominated Scots, Irish, Welsh, or Cornish. Or hell full blooded Englishmen for that matter! lol

Actually this isn't exactly true the Islands did have the Britain concept many centuries before this, however, the term Britain referring to a country or government is much more recent. Hey even Prime Minister Chamberlain signed himself as Prime Minister of England, the term was much more widely accepted to mean all of Britain till the late 1930's, until people started getting a bit pissed off that they were called English instead of Scottish. Do you know what the Oxford university's book entitle The History of England is about? I'll give you a hint it isn't England it is in fact about the history of the British Isles.

Actually this isn't exactly true the Islands did have the Britain concept many centuries before this, however, the term Britain referring to a country or government is much more recent. Hey even Prime Minister Chamberlain signed himself as Prime Minister of England, the term was much more widely accepted to mean all of Britain till the late 1930's, until people started getting a bit pissed off that they were called English instead of Scottish. Do you know what the Oxford university's book entitle The History of England is about? I'll give you a hint it isn't England it is in fact about the history of the British Isles.


Okay so I had some of the details wrong but the end is still the same. The point I was trying to make was that a fleet from England in the 1500s would be referred to as English, not British, until the 1700s.

So basically all you are trying to say is that it is a fleet that came from the British Isles, in the same way the Spanish Armada is a European Fleet.

The Spanish Armada was a European fleet, yes, if you're referring to the modern concept of Europe. At the time, the countries didn't feel the continent was a unified entity like it is nowadays.

The Spanish Armada was a European fleet, yes, if you're referring to the modern concept of Europe. At the time, the countries didn't feel the continent was a unified entity like it is nowadays.


Since when was Europe unified into one entity? Did something happen over night that I wasn't aware of?

Since when was Europe unified into one entity? Did something happen over night that I wasn't aware of?

I'm referring to the EU, to Europe as it is considered now. A union. Of course, every country in the union has it's own identity and the like, but back in the 1500s this was even more marked. Spain considered itself Spain, a sole kingdom, apart from England or Germany.

The Spanish Armada was a European fleet, yes, if you're referring to the modern concept of Europe. At the time, the countries didn't feel the continent was a unified entity like it is nowadays.

Yes I am well aware of that Nanatsu but I believe that is the comparison that Forsakia is trying to make by stating that the English fleet is a British fleet, simply because it came from the British Isles, the Spanish Armada came from the continent of Europe therefore it is a European fleet. That is not something I am saying is correct but I believe that is what Forsakia is trying to say and in a way he is right.

I'm referring to the EU, to Europe as it is considered now. A union. Of course, every country in the union has it's own identity and the like, but back in the 1500s this was even more marked. Spain considered itself Spain, a sole kingdom, apart from England or Germany.


Eh, the EU isn't quite that unified my friend. I think you're implying that the EU is more of a central pan-European government, which it isn't.

Yes I am well aware of that Nanatsu but I believe that is the comparison that Forsakia is trying to make by stating that the English fleet is a British fleet.

Well, apparently that term "British" is met with some trepidation and dislike by the English.

Well, apparently that term "British" is met with some trepidation and dislike by the English.

Well certainly because at the time it wasn't a British fleet, it was a fleet controlled and owned by England.

Well certainly because at the time it wasn't a British fleet, it was a fleet controlled and owned by England.

I am aware of that. It's just that British and English, to me, it's all the same. Maybe I am wrong in considering it so. *shrugs*

Oh, for the love of Christ.

England:

http://viking.hgo.se/maps/england.gif

Britain:

http://www.beduk.co.uk/images/britain2.gif

If the fleet came from England, then it's English, by virtue of coming from England, AND British, by virtue of coming from Britain, of which England is a part.

QED.

Well, apparently that term "British" is met with some trepidation and dislike by the English.

It's not only an English sentiment. Many people in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales would not appreciate being grouped together as British in certain contexts

Oh, for the love of Christ.

England:

http://viking.hgo.se/maps/england.gif

Britain:

http://www.beduk.co.uk/images/britain2.gif

If the fleet came from England, then it's English, by virtue of coming from England, AND British, by virtue of coming from Britain, of which England is a part.

QED.

The second image you posted is Great Britain (the geographical landmass) and not Britain (the political term used as an alternative to the UK)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Isles_Euler_diagram.svg

The Falklands belong to the people who inhabit them. And since they want to be British...

Well, apparently that term "British" is met with some trepidation and dislike by the English.

Not me, I don't really care.

I am aware of that. It's just that British and English, to me, it's all the same. Maybe I am wrong in considering it so. *shrugs*

Go back even 100 years and it would be one and the same thing, why even Neville Chamberlain signed his name as Prime Minster of England, when the Empire was large and all encompassing to call the British Empire England was perfectly alright, as I mentioned in another post the book written by Oxford University entitled The history of England, is actually about the entire British Isles, which back when this was first being written was allowed because England and Britain where essentially synonyms. Nowadays since the late 1930's it is now correct to call it Britain and the United Kingdom. However if we are talking about English history before James VI of Scotland became James I of England they were indeed simply England not British. As I say the term England and Britain using it as one and the same is an older notion but still used today.

Okay so I had some of the details wrong but the end is still the same. The point I was trying to make was that a fleet from England in the 1500s would be referred to as English, not British, until the 1700s.

And that is true.

I truly think Las Malvinas should belong to Argentina. I mean, they're close and obviously want the piece of land. In any case, with global warming, Las Malvinas will soon be claimed by the sea so, who cares?

The Falklanders care.

Anyway, by the same standard, Malta should become the 21st italian region. Only that the Maltese want to be Maltese and not Italian, so it's their bloody right to keep the things the way it are. Same goes for the Falklanders, who want to be British: the choice is the peoples', not of the countries. Self determination!

Well, apparently that term "British" is met with some trepidation and dislike by the English.

Generally no - except in contexts where it's historically inaccurate (though that's just pedantry). I think it annoys people more to refer to things as English when they mean British, because then you are excluding a significant proportion of the UK.

Generally no - except in contexts where it's historically inaccurate (though that's just pedantry). I think it annoys people more to refer to things as English when they mean British, because then you are excluding a significant proportion of the UK.

Hence my personal annoyance with the whole Team GB thing

Hence my personal annoyance with the whole Team GB thing

No Northern Irish allowed. :p

No Northern Irish allowed.

Oh no, there are Northern Irish, and they actually won medals at Beijing. But they're not from Britain.

Oh no, there are Northern Irish, and they actually won medals at Beijing. But they're not from Britain.

Don't you mean they aren't from Great Britian?

Oh no, there are Northern Irish, and they actually won medals at Beijing. But they're not from Britain.

Yes they are :p although i'd prefer if it was 'Team UK' as opposed to 'Team B'

Yes they are

No they're not.

No they're not.

We very much are a part of Britain. We aren't however part of Great Britain

We very much are a part of Britain. We aren't however part of Great Britain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain

We're both right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain

We're both right.

Yes but I think what he is trying to say is that the Olympic team is called Team great Britain which does only refer to the main Island, when the tea is meant to be representing the entire Untied Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain

We're both right.

Oh so NOW you're all about the geographical use of the word rather than the political :p

Yes but I think what he is trying to say is that the Olympic team is called Team great Britain which does only refer to the main Island, when the tea is meant to be representing the entire Untied Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

This

The Spanish Armada was a European fleet, yes, if you're referring to the modern concept of Europe.Or because not only Portugal (which was then under the same king as Spain) but also one or more of the Italian states had sent ships along?

Or because not only Portugal (which was then under the same king as Spain) but also one or more of the Italian states had sent ships along?

Well, Sicily was under Spanish rule at the time. Fernando I was also king of Sicily.

Why do I get the feeling Brown is trying to distract the voting public from economic reality by bringing up the Falklands, Royal succession etc.?

Well, Sicily was under Spanish rule at the time. Fernando I was also king of Sicily.Venice, however, was fully independant... but does seem to have been involved too.

Why do I get the feeling Brown is trying to distract the voting public from economic reality by bringing up the Falklands, Royal succession etc.?

I would say because he wants to get votes but this is G20 season, in previous years almost all leaders start talking about things like this and what they plan to achieve and talk about with the leaders of other nations.

I can't be to much of a cynic considering what is going on in London at the moment.

Venice, however, was fully independant... but does seem to have been involved too.

The Venetians were known for being amazing sailors and their ships are were respected.

The Venetians were known for being amazing sailors and their ships are were respected.

And we still beat them.

And we still beat them.

Which doesn't take from the fact that they were great sailors.

Okay so I had some of the details wrong but the end is still the same. The point I was trying to make was that a fleet from England in the 1500s would be referred to as English, not British, until the 1700s.

Hardly. James I/VI would be styling himself King of Great Britain less than 20 years later. The concept was around in the late 16th century.

Which doesn't take from the fact that they were great sailors.

No, it just makes us even better than them.

No, it just makes us even better than them.

Yes, you do live in Cymru, or close to it.:D

Yes, you do live in Cymru, or close to it.:D

Eh?

Eh?

You're Welsh, right? Or am I mistaking you for someone else?:eek:

You're Welsh, right? Or am I mistaking you for someone else?:eek:

Would I have my location as England if I lived in Wales? I'm part Welsh though.

Would I have my location as England if I lived in Wales? I'm part Welsh though.

Ah, sorry. I forgot that.

Would I have my location as England if I lived in Wales? I'm part Welsh though.

Please, you say your location is Bristol you may as well be Wales, lord knows there are plenty of the Welsh there. :p

Please, you say your location is Bristol you may as well be Wales, lord knows there are plenty of the Welsh there. :p

Have you ever been to Bristol?

Have you ever been to Bristol?

Just going on what people from Bristol have told me.

Just going on what people from Bristol have told me.

You've met people from Bristol?

You've met people from Bristol?

Yes I have. So?

Yes I have. So?

I'm just amazed.

I'm just amazed.

Is that because of the whole once you're in Bristol you don't bother leaving?

Is that because of the whole once you're in Bristol you don't bother leaving?

I dunno really, I'm just surprised. How many have you met?

Are we really seen as such a soft touch nowadays that we're expected to give away territory to anyone who likes the look of it?

I dunno really, I'm just surprised. How many have you met?

four

four

In one go or what?

In one go or what?

three seperate occassion. Worked with one, went to uni with one and the other two I met through a friend a youngish married couple who had come to Australia to work.

They're sitting on oil.
Close. It's lanolin.

Actually NNLDI why did you want to know this?

Umm...Didnt the people of the Falklands want to remain British? Why would we force them to take an option they didnt want?

I truly think Las Malvinas should belong to Argentina. I mean, they're close and obviously want the piece of land. In any case, with global warming, Las Malvinas will soon be claimed by the sea so, who cares?

So, can Canada have Greenland?

So, can Canada have Greenland?

No, cause if you havent heard, WE're annexing you, lol


So, 'Merika gets Greenland, lol :p...

No, cause if you havent heard, WE're annexing you, lol


So, 'Merika gets Greenland, lol :p...

You can't survive our harsh Canadian climate, seriously, right after you cross the border it goes from 0 to "holy fuck its a blizzard" in minutes.

You can't survive our harsh Canadian climate, seriously, right after you cross the border it goes from 0 to "holy fuck its a blizzard" in minutes.

thats why we're having the Alaska National Guard take it for us, problem solved, lol...

Hell, Palin has enough Moose pelts to sheild them all, :p

thats why we're having the Alaska National Guard take it for us, problem solved, lol...

Hell, Palin has enough Moose pelts to sheild them all, :p

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Sarah Palin is leading your invasion force! we'll just point her to Russia and tell her it's Toronto.

Can the people who've voted "they should become Argentinian" please explain their reasoning?

The Falklands have been British territory since 1833, since 1983 residents on the Falklands Islands have been full British citizens (one year after the Falklands war), of the 2,967 residents, 70% are of British descent, the overwhelming majority of which wish to remain British. Argentinia does not recognise the population's right of self-determination and instead views the population as invaders. Argentinia wants the islands, not the people.

Argentinia has no valid claim to the islands, because the islands are no longer Argentinian in population, descent, culture or inclination.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Sarah Palin is leading your invasion force! we'll just point her to Russia and tell her it's Toronto.

No, no no no....She's just suppl-


Ah, well, you win, I cant beat the epicness of her ignorance....

No, no no no....She's just suppl-


Ah, well, you win, I cant beat the epicness of her ignorance....

Victory is mine!

I support a penguin invasion to retake the island for Antarctica.

As long as you get to be the ruler of it afterwards.

Well, apparently that term "British" is met with some trepidation and dislike by the English.

The term is also disliked by Scots....and Welsh....and Northern Irish....

If not used correctly :)

They should either remain British or be given their own sovereignty.

I can't believe that the discussion of the Falklands took Fifteen whole minutes - unless Brown sang "Don't cry for me, Argentina" three times AND knew all the verses. Which I doubt.

As for calls to discuss Sovereignty - believe those talks were held on the 14th June at 2059 local time between General de Brigada Mario Menendez and Major General Jeremy Moore.

General Menendez was allowed to take his ball and go home.

The term is also disliked by Scots....and Welsh....and Northern Irish....

If not used correctly :)

Yes, I've come to understand that.:tongue:

Yes, I've come to understand that.:tongue:

Pedantry is something close to a national sport here. Alongside tea-making and discussing the weather.

We balance it out by holding cheese rolling events and biscuit throwing world championships.

No, no no no....She's just suppl-


Ah, well, you win, I cant beat the epicness of her ignorance....

My favourite Palin quote was the one where, before a wide eyed and incredulous CNN reporter, she said that she believed the Iraq War was a "Crusade" not dissimilar to the ones back in 1100. *sigh* I like John McCain, but after that even I couldn't vote for him.