NationStates Jolt Archive

Everybody know about Eastern martial arts, but there's are some really cool ones that came out of the West. A short list includes:

Bartitsu
Boyovyy hopak
Canne de combat
Pankration
Savate
Sambo
Schwingen

Anybody know any other interesting ones? Anybody studied any of these?

I'll add Systema to the list.

Is one of those a Translation of Brazilian Jujitsu?

Another thing worth discussing is why Europe didn't develop nearly as many hand-to-hand martial arts as Asia. Any theories on why that is?

Is one of those a Translation of Brazilian Jujitsu?

If you mean Bartitsu, it was invented by a British man named Something Barton-Something. He merged "Barton" with the "itsu" from jujitsu to make it sound more martial-artsy.

Another thing worth discussing is why Europe didn't develop nearly as many hand-to-hand martial arts as Asia. Any theories on why that is?

They actually did. Then a combination of firearms and sportification of the combat style makes the number less common in the modern days.

There are all manner of wrestling styles, stick fighting systems, boxing, and weapons based systems. I have the Bartitsu workbook - faintly surprised anyone else has heard of good old mister Barton-Wright. Depends whether you are talking about things that are originally from the west or are derived from eastern arts like Bartitsu, and Fairbairn's Defendu.

Does it count as Western if Bruce Lee invented it?

Another thing worth discussing is why Europe didn't develop nearly as many hand-to-hand martial arts as Asia. Any theories on why that is?

Because we fight with weapons.

Krav Maga.

If you mean Bartitsu, it was invented by a British man named Something Barton-Something. He merged "Barton" with the "itsu" from jujitsu to make it sound more martial-artsy.

I thought it didn't exist, and Arthur Conan-Doyle just made it up for Sherlock Holmes?

If you mean Bartitsu, it was invented by a British man named Something Barton-Something. He merged "Barton" with the "itsu" from jujitsu to make it sound more martial-artsy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu


That. Came form Japan, yes but is defiantly its own style now.

Another thing worth discussing is why Europe didn't develop nearly as many hand-to-hand martial arts as Asia. Any theories on why that is?

fencing.

Does it count as Western if Bruce Lee invented it?

He is an American so it is Western. Jeet Kun Do.

Does it count as Western if Bruce Lee invented it?

He's Chinese so no. Anyway, if you mean Jun-Fan Gung Fu, that wasn't really a new invention, and if you call Jeet Kune Do a martial art then you're completely missing Lee's point.

I thought it didn't exist, and Arthur Conan-Doyle just made it up for Sherlock Holmes?

Nope, it's the real deal. Behold!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9e/Copy_of_Montage.jpg

Another thing worth discussing is why Europe didn't develop nearly as many hand-to-hand martial arts as Asia. Any theories on why that is?

They did, look at the mediaeval fechtbuchs, like the Codex Wallerstein, and you will see techniques every bit as sophisticated as jiu-jitsu. The reason they died out is to do with the development of armour, laws on who could carry weapons being different between the west and the east, and eventually the use of guns.

Because we fight with weapons.

What, and the Chinese just ran onto the battlefield with arms flailing?

Sorry, I must.

http://www.bangitout.com/uploads/12jew-jitsu.jpg

Another thing worth discussing is why Europe didn't develop nearly as many hand-to-hand martial arts as Asia. Any theories on why that is?

Slightly horter history of organised warfare and earlier practical use of the gun, I reckon.

What, and the Chinese just ran onto the battlefield with arms flailing?

Of course not, they don't flail their arms, they gracefully beat the shit out of each other.

They did, look at the mediaeval fechtbuchs, like the Codex Wallerstein, and you will see techniques every bit as sophisticated as jiu-jitsu. The reason they died out is to do with the development of armour, laws on who could carry weapons being different between the west and the east, and eventually the use of guns.

Think the ebb and flow about Martial arts is cyclic, they begin, they take a few centuries to mature then they start to become sports. Then the next set of martial arts arises.

What, and the Chinese just ran onto the battlefield with arms flailing?

I think we are discussing in fights outside of warfare. aka street brawls and what not.

Greco-Roman wrestling.

One of the few martial arts that's any good in UFC.

I think we are discussing in fights outside of warfare. aka street brawls and what not.

Fair enough, but Chinese martial arts have their roots in the military, as well as civilian uses.

IMO, possibly the coolest and most fascinating of the lot is boyovyy hopak, because like capoeira, it's a dance-based martial art, which means it looks brilliant.

Fair enough, but Chinese martial arts have their roots in the military, as well as civilian uses.

mass formations in military battles limit martial arts as we know them in the east and the west.
you officers and generals may have been skilled with a sword and other arts, the majority of your soldiers are going to have a far simpler fighting style.
It is outside the battle field in smaller scale encounters that higher degrees of skill would be useful.

which means it looks brilliant.

Not necessarily. If you made a martial art based on Morris dancing, for example, you'd just like like a twat.

Think the ebb and flow about Martial arts is cyclic, they begin, they take a few centuries to mature then they start to become sports. Then the next set of martial arts arises.

Not sure I would call WWF style wrestling a sport...

I agree individual martial arts styles go through that cycle but I am not sure it explains the difference in the number of styles in the east compared to the west. Partly it must be to do with need, cheap guns and effective police forces must have had an effect.

Not necessarily. If you made a martial art based on Morris dancing, for example, you'd just like like a twat.

"Our martial arts tradition is based on the Charleston".

IMO, possibly the coolest and most fascinating of the lot is boyovyy hopak, because like capoeira, it's a dance-based martial art, which means it looks brilliant.

Doesn't work for Morris Dancing

(edit) Damn beaten to the Morris dancing joke

Not sure I would call WWF style wrestling a sport...

I agree individual martial arts styles go through that cycle but I am not sure it explains the difference in the number of styles in the east compared to the west. Partly it must be to do with need, cheap guns and effective police forces must have had an effect.

WWF is acting and gymnastics. it never was a martial art.

I am talking fistacuffs to boxing.
Or taekwondo to point sparing.
and so on.
Over time people stop learning the arts for self defense combat value and instead focus on the sports value of it.
Thinks you can do in a point sparring match in taekwondo to get the point and win that would get your ass kicked in a street fight.

Another reason why the East has so many more preserved martial arts styles could be the link between martial arts and religion; in China, kung fu is practised as a type of meditation by monks. Europe had no such preservation, so when martial arts were rendered obsolete by personal weaponry, they largely died out.

Doesn't work for Morris Dancing

(edit) Damn beaten to the Morris dancing joke

Who would've thought there'd be one Morris dancing joke, let alone 2?

Europe had no such preservation, so when martial arts were rendered obsolete by personal weaponry, they largely died out.

But even when firearms were introduced to China and Japan by Europeans, martial arts didn't die out at all.

Who would've thought there'd be one Morris dancing joke, let alone 2?

Hey, if someone out there can actually devote time and energy into creating actual Klingon martial arts, I'll bet someone out there is twisted enough to try and create Morris Capoeira.

But even when firearms were introduced to China

What? China invented firearms.

But even when firearms were introduced to China and Japan by Europeans, martial arts didn't die out at all.

By that time, they were well embedded into society.

What? China invented firearms.

But it didn't really evolve the way it did in Europe and the British brought it back full circle amongst others.

WWF is acting and gymnastics. it never was a martial art.

I am talking fistacuffs to boxing.
Or taekwondo to point sparing.
and so on.
Over time people stop learning the arts for self defense combat value and instead focus on the sports value of it.
Thinks you can do in a point sparring match in taekwondo to get the point and win that would get your ass kicked in a street fight.

The wrestling thing was a joke.

That is what I meant about the need for martial arts. Guns reduced the effectiveness of martial arts, just as armour reduced the effectiveness of them in mediaeval times.

Embarrassingly I once sparred with a Taekwondo instructor visiting the club I trained at and wiped the floor with them. I was used to full contact with very few rules, they were used to point scoring and no punching to the head - I didn't realise why they looked a bit shocked until a long time later. Must have thought I was incredibly rude.

Hey, if someone out there can actually devote time and energy into creating actual Klingon martial arts,

Oh dear God, why?

Embarrassingly I once sparred with a Taekwondo instructor visiting the club I trained at and wiped the floor with them. I was used to full contact with very few rules, they were used to point scoring and no punching to the head - I didn't realise why they looked a bit shocked until a long time later. Must have thought I was incredibly rude.

I once heard an anecdote from a boxer about this time that a group of Australian boxers went up against Asian martial artists; the boxers won every time, because they were actually conditioned to being hit.

The wrestling thing was a joke.

That is what I meant about the need for martial arts. Guns reduced the effectiveness of martial arts, just as armour reduced the effectiveness of them in mediaeval times.

Martial arts merely adapted to deal with the existence of firearms. Look at swords for instance. Back when heavy plated armor was the biggest obstacle to making the soft squishy person scream, big heavy swords like the zweihander were instrumental weapons. But as soon as cheap, easily learned firearms dominated the field the emphasis on armor-piercing was no longer there and swords became light and quick, turning towards blades like the epee and rapier.

And of course there's quite a few martial arts that have developed one method or another to defend against opponents with firearms.

Embarrassingly I once sparred with a Taekwondo instructor visiting the club I trained at and wiped the floor with them. I was used to full contact with very few rules, they were used to point scoring and no punching to the head - I didn't realise why they looked a bit shocked until a long time later. Must have thought I was incredibly rude.

As an aside, tai chi chuan was initially developed as a combat-oriented martial art, but apparently its creators came up with the more familiar exercise style to hide its true abilities which kept it from being banned in ancient times.

I once heard an anecdote from a boxer about this time that a group of Australian boxers went up against Asian martial artists; the boxers won every time, because they were actually conditioned to being hit.

I have also heard of quite a lot of anecdotes about professional boxers getting the shit kicked out of them in bar fights, simply because they aren't used to people kicking and they tend to hang back ducking and weaving in anticipation of lasting ten rounds. Amateur boxers tend to do better because the get stuck in straight away.

The wrestling thing was a joke.

That is what I meant about the need for martial arts. Guns reduced the effectiveness of martial arts, just as armour reduced the effectiveness of them in mediaeval times.

Embarrassingly I once sparred with a Taekwondo instructor visiting the club I trained at and wiped the floor with them. I was used to full contact with very few rules, they were used to point scoring and no punching to the head - I didn't realise why they looked a bit shocked until a long time later. Must have thought I was incredibly rude.

US taekwondo schools suck. They all pretty much teach points sparring.
the one I did allowed kicks to head for black belts though just you were supposed to not put power in the kick.

Korea you will find better schools in taekwondo. A lot of the schools teach under the idea of facing another civil war and using taekwondo to survive.

There I could find girls several less training able to come across the room and kick me in the blink of an eye. After my first year there I didn't even count my training in the US.

I once heard an anecdote from a boxer about this time that a group of Australian boxers went up against Asian martial artists; the boxers won every time, because they were actually conditioned to being hit.

In those competitions it depends on the rules of the fight and what the fighter is used to.

US taekwondo schools suck. They all pretty much teach points sparring.
the one I did allowed kicks to head for black belts though just you were supposed to not put power in the kick.

Korea you will find better schools in taekwondo. A lot of the schools teach under the idea of facing another civil war and using taekwondo to survive.

There I could find girls several less training able to come across the room and kick me in the blink of an eye. After my first year there I didn't even count my training in the US.

I still stick to the idea that kicking anywhere higher than the bollocks in a fight is a really foolhardy thing to do.

I still stick to the idea that kicking anywhere higher than the bollocks in a fight is a really foolhardy thing to do.

Muai Thai artists can kick a lot higher than the bollocks, and you can't call seasoned vets fools for the most part.

I still stick to the idea that kicking anywhere higher than the bollocks in a fight is a really foolhardy thing to do.

I find a good gut kick to be effective especially if they charge at you. the higher up kicks are really just for practice so it stretches your muscles so you can execute the lower kicks more effectively. Also my teacher in Korea could set up in a one legged stance and block most punches with his kicks. It would the shit out of my knuckles too.

The West did develop martial arts. Historically, however, they tended to be for armed combat, not unarmed. But well developed and very effective fighting systems existed for (for example), both armoured and unarmoured longsword, greatsword, sword and buckler, rapier, and quarterstaff. Along with later innovations such as singlestick and broadsword.

As for why this is, I would suggest that the later development of a centralised state in the West was the primary cause. When there is a strong central government, disarming the population becomes more popular, forcing martial systems to prefer the use of hands and feet over weapons. However for most of Europe's history, the state was not a massive presence in everyday life, and some degree of DIY in the matter of defense was required.

I thought it didn't exist, and Arthur Conan-Doyle just made it up for Sherlock Holmes?

Real deal. It was more a stick fighting system, but still existed.

I still stick to the idea that kicking anywhere higher than the bollocks in a fight is a really foolhardy thing to do.

Depends on how fast you are, and the kick you're using.

Doing something fancy like a back kick is just a bad idea, that's true. But if you're quick, a front kick to the solar plexus can be very rapid, and very effective.

I once heard an anecdote from a boxer about this time that a group of Australian boxers went up against Asian martial artists; the boxers won every time, because they were actually conditioned to being hit.

That happens quite a lot. But if you get martial artists who are used to being hit, then they're pretty powerful.

Muai Thai artists can kick a lot higher than the bollocks, and you can't call seasoned vets fools for the most part.

Muay Thai practitioners tend to lose in mixed martial arts competitions to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu people who just ran them and grab them by the waist.

Muay Thai practitioners tend to lose in mixed martial arts competitions to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu people who just ran them and grab them by the waist.

A lot of strike-oriented martial arts have problems with grapplers in general, so you can't say it's a specific weakness of Muai-Thai. In addition, Muai Thai also has emphasis in extreme close range fighting so it shouldn't have as much problem with grapplers like most other striking arts. And even MMA matches tend to have some limitations to what are considered acceptable hits.

Any martial art where they condition their practitioners to kick with their shins at bone-breaking force- and not the kicker's bone mind you- is not something to dismiss lightly.

Muai Thai artists can kick a lot higher than the bollocks

So can I, but I don't when I'm a real fight.

A lot of strike-oriented martial arts have problems with grapplers in general, so you can't say it's a specific weakness of Muai-Thai. In addition, Muai Thai also has emphasis in extreme close range fighting so it shouldn't have as much problem with grapplers like most other striking arts. And even MMA matches tend to have some limitations to what are considered acceptable hits.

Any martial art where they condition their practitioners to kick with their shins at bone-breaking force- and not the kicker's bone mind you- is not something to dismiss lightly.

My teacher taught me a nice trick with grapplers. as soon as you feel any contact along the wrist execute a block. the snap normally prevents the hold.
Still disadvantaged. But not joint locked out after I throw the first punch.

Any martial art where they condition their practitioners to kick with their shins at bone-breaking force- and not the kicker's bone mind you- is not something to dismiss lightly.

Depends if they can actually land them or not. I seriously doubt that Muay Thai fighters who get into fights outside the ring use high spinning kicks (well not the ones that win fights outside the ring anyway).

Everybody know about Eastern martial arts, but there's are some really cool ones that came out of the West. A short list includes:

Bartitsu
Boyovyy hopak
Canne de combat
Pankration
Savate
Sambo
Schwingen

Anybody know any other interesting ones? Anybody studied any of these?

Classical fencing?

My teacher taught me a nice trick with grapplers. as soon as you feel any contact along the wrist execute a block. the snap normally prevents the hold.

Or just smack them in the face as they go to grab you. The other one, which I personally have used, and can wholeheartedly recommend, is if they put their head down and bend over before charging at you, you kick them in the face. That tends to stop them in their tracks.

Or just smack them in the face as they go to grab you. The other one, which I personally have used, and can wholeheartedly recommend, is if they put their head down and bend over before charging at you, you kick them in the face. That tends to stop them in their tracks.

I was thinking more of people that fight like clothes hangers not the charge in and grapple you types.

I was thinking more of people that fight like clothes hangers not the charge in and grapple you types.

Like clothes hangers?

Like clothes hangers?

Hang up a clothes hanger throw some gentle punches at it. Imagine that's a person that doesn't really come at you but is hard to land a hit on and easy to get your fist caught in his trap.

the imagery me and my friends used to discuss it.

Hang up a clothes hanger throw some gentle punches at it. Imagine that's a person that doesn't really come at you but is hard to land a hit on and easy to get your fist caught in his trap.

the imagery me and my friends used to discuss it.

I've never fought anyone like that.

I've never fought anyone like that.

You've never been drunk, confused, and locked in a closet. *nod*

does cumberland and Westmorland Wrestling count or Catch-Can Wrestling

You've never been drunk, confused, and locked in a closet. *nod*

I've been drunk confused and barricaded in a closet though. My mates all thought it was hilarious until I tipped it over on top of 2 of them's (is that right? 2 of their's?) feet.

Capoeira.

I've never fought anyone like that.

It is a pain. given all you got to do is walk away and you ruin their whole means of fighting you.

Capoeira.

That's African, and then further developed in Brazil. I don't think that's in the category Rusty's talking about.

That's African, and then further developed in Brazil. I don't think that's in the category Rusty's talking about.

Krav Maga is Middle Eastern, but it's been included.

Western martial arts?
They're probs shyte.

Hey, if someone out there can actually devote time and energy into creating actual Klingon martial arts, I'll bet someone out there is twisted enough to try and create Morris Capoeira.Isn't it used on Terry Pratchett's 'Discworld'?

Krav Maga is Middle Eastern, but it's been included.

Israel is pretty much European, though.

Western martial arts?
They're probs shyte.

As per usual, you don't have a clue what you're on about.

Krav Maga is Middle Eastern, but it's been included.

It's a sketchy area; it's technically from the ME, but it would have been developed by people who were of European descent, in a society with strong links to Europe.

As per usual, you don't have a clue what you're on about.

As a practical demonstration of this, turn 18, find your local SCA branch, and ask about training as a fighter.

Israel is pretty much European, though.
No it's not.
As per usual, you don't have a clue what you're on about.

No, no, I know what I'm talking about- you don't.

'Gut Barging' (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19961004/ai_n14087395), anybody? ;)

The Journal of Western Martial Arts
http://ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaframe.htm

and the wonderfully named Journal of Manly Arts
http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyframe.htm

for those interested. For some reason they kind of stop at the point things get really interesting to me which is when you start getting western and eastern ideas mixed together (though I suppose that is really what Bartitsu was about) in the close combat training of Fairbairn, Applegate and Perrigard etc in the run up to the second world war.

No it's not.

So a country where almost everyone living there is of European decent, with a good chunk of the population being born there isn't even slightly European?

No, no, I know what I'm talking about- you don't.

What do you know about martial arts then? I highly doubt more than me, especially seeing as you didn't even know about western martial arts until just then when you turned up going "LOLOLLOL I KNOW FUCK ALL ABOUT THIS BUT I'M STILL GONNA CALL IT SHITE LOLOLOL".

So a country where almost everyone living there is of European decent, with a good chunk of the population being born there isn't even slightly European?



What do you know about martial arts then? I highly doubt more than me, especially seeing as you didn't even know about western martial arts until just then when you turned up going "LOLOLLOL I KNOW FUCK ALL ABOUT THIS BUT I'M STILL GONNA CALL IT SHITE LOLOLOL".
Are you following me from thread to thread?

I know quite a bit acctually ( though I do not profess to be an expert), I was only 2 away from a black belt in Karate and came second in Kumatai in the Nationals

Are you following me from thread to thread?

No, we're just both posting in the active threads.

I know quite a bit acctually ( though I do not profess to be an expert), I was only 2 away from a black belt in Karate and came second in Kumatai in the Nationals

That doesn't mean you know a lot about them.

Are you following me from thread to thread?

I know quite a bit acctually ( though I do not profess to be an expert), I was only 2 away from a black belt in Karate and came second in Kumatai in the Nationals

And what do you know about those things relevant to this thread, namely Western martial arts systems?

No, we're just both posting in the active threads.

That doesn't mean you know a lot about them.

And what do you know about those things relevant to this thread, namely Western martial arts systems?

"Ahem!"

"Gentlemen, you cannot fight here: this is the War Room!"

Eckythump.

Not necessarily. If you made a martial art based on Morris dancing, for example, you'd just like like a twat.

But it would be awesome.

Especially when you handed someone their arse, using it.

"Ahem!"

Thread win.

There's lots of western martial arts. All sorts of organisations develop a system that does what they need it to in the way they think is best. German police has "Jujitsu", the Marines had LINE (http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=645) and now something somewhat less blunt. And as was said before, the Israelis have Krav Maga. But all of these are very specific, and just not as popular with the public so fewer people know about them.

And they don't make for as good a movie as various forms of wushu do.

Greco-Roman wrestling.

One of the few martial arts that's any good in UFC.

Maybe I don't watch enough UFC but how often do you see a fighter that will mainly use Greco-Roman wrestling techniques.

As to the OP, I have mucked around in being taught Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, don't know many moves but do practice with a partner once in awhile.

I once heard an anecdote from a boxer about this time that a group of Australian boxers went up against Asian martial artists; the boxers won every time, because they were actually conditioned to being hit.

Depends on the style and the training.

Depends if they can actually land them or not. I seriously doubt that Muay Thai fighters who get into fights outside the ring use high spinning kicks (well not the ones that win fights outside the ring anyway).

My old friend who was an All Australia pro champ, fought in Bangkok as well, once took down three guys who tried to jump him outside a bar here. One was that gut kick G&D mentioned above.

Capoeira.

Funnily enough, that's starting to take off in Japan. ;)

Western martial arts?
They're probs shyte.

:rolleyes:

As a practical demonstration of this, turn 18, find your local SCA branch, and ask about training as a fighter.

Having done the SCA thing, I can say it's a mixed bag - some of it's pretty accurate and some of it's not at all.

Or just smack them in the face as they go to grab you. The other one, which I personally have used, and can wholeheartedly recommend, is if they put their head down and bend over before charging at you, you kick them in the face. That tends to stop them in their tracks.

Way back when I was still actively doing martial arts, one of my teachers was going through a bunch of grappling drills - when grabbed this way, do this move, when grabbed this other way, use this other move. The last one was when grabbed any way, pop 'em in the face.

Maybe I don't watch enough UFC but how often do you see a fighter that will mainly use Greco-Roman wrestling techniques.

None because u can't grab the guy's dick... plus they have clothes on. :p

the Marines had LINE (http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=645) and now something somewhat less blunt.

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

And to add to the list:
Jogo do Pau (http://www.jogodopauacores.com/index_EN.aspx) - Portugese stick fighting

The headbutt to the nose/crown, and the lighter concealed in a fist are particular favourites of mine.

Muay Thai practitioners tend to lose in mixed martial arts competitions to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu people who just ran them and grab them by the waist.
Meh. As a purely practical martial art (a.k.a. what is going to help the most in a bar fight) Muay Thai is up there as one of the best striking arts to know. Most fights come in to close range within seconds, and seconds later end up on the floor; it's why a mix of Muay Thai and a grappling art such as jujitsu is an extremely effective combination.
That's African, and then further developed in Brazil. I don't think that's in the category Rusty's talking about.

This isn't completely true. There is no "African Capoeira" and no one is completely sure where it came from. Capoeira, as it is now, is most definitely a Brazilian martial art that is far removed from its possibly (probably) African roots.

Personally, I would love to learn a combo of Sambo, Muay Thai and Capoeira. The first is extremely effective and useful, the second is extremely effective and useful and great physical training from what I understand, and the last is the best physical training you can do, I'd say; Capoeira isn't something you'd EVER use in a fight, of course, but it not only conditions like no other but it trains reaction time and "active" thinking, too.

The headbutt to the nose/crown, and the lighter concealed in a fist are particular favourites of mine.

I think we call that Yob style.

I think we call that Yob style.

Or maybe he's a testa (http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/52/testa.html) practitioner? :p

What about Gun-Fu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_fu)? It was invented in Hong Kong which was a British colony and uses Western weaponry.

Capoeira isn't something you'd EVER use in a fight, of course, but it not only conditions like no other but it trains reaction time and "active" thinking, too.

I dunno; just because it's fancy, doesn't mean it won't work. Boyovyy hopak looks fancy, but seems like it'd still do the job.

Boxe, Greco-Roman Wrestling, and of course the various schools of fencing (French, Italian, Spanish...)

My old friend who was an All Australia pro champ, fought in Bangkok as well, once took down three guys who tried to jump him outside a bar here. One was that gut kick G&D mentioned above.


In other words he didn't use high spinning kicks to the head in a street fight which was my point.


Meh. As a purely practical martial art (a.k.a. what is going to help the most in a bar fight) Muay Thai is up there as one of the best striking arts to know. Most fights come in to close range within seconds, and seconds later end up on the floor; it's why a mix of Muay Thai and a grappling art such as jujitsu is an extremely effective combination.


If most fights come to close range in seconds and then end up on the floor, how exactly is Muay Thai an effective art (though it is not a martial art it is a sport)? Surely some kind of close range in fighting style combined with grappling would be a better choice? What Muay Thai has going for it is not the kicks but the reminder to use your knees, elbows, and head as well as your fists and feet. Keeping your balance is one of the most crucial things in a fight and anything that compromises that is hugely risky. The idea of someone being within kicking range but out of punching range is largely nonsense - you are either close enough that they can get to you or you aren't. Unless you are incredibly fit and training for hours everyday, began training at the age of six and are still under 25, Muay Thai is not a practical martial art.

I dunno; just because it's fancy, doesn't mean it won't work. Boyovyy hopak looks fancy, but seems like it'd still do the job.
Capoeira telegraphs the majority of its moves. It isn't that it looks fancy, it's that, no matter what, you clearly show what limb you're about to use, if not exactly how you're going to use it. There are certain aspects of its training that are unparalleled in any other art; the conditioning that occurs at relative skill and training levels is above and beyond anything I've personally encounter and, again, the manner in which it trains "in-combat" thinking and focus is a huge strength. I simply would never use the shit I've used in a roda in a bar fight, it just isn't practical, at all.
If most fights come to close range in seconds and then end up on the floor, how exactly is Muay Thai an effective art (though it is not a martial art it is a sport)? Surely some kind of close range in fighting style combined with grappling would be a better choice? What Muay Thai has going for it is not the kicks but the reminder to use your knees, elbows, and head as well as your fists and feet. Keeping your balance is one of the most crucial things in a fight and anything that compromises that is hugely risky. The idea of someone being within kicking range but out of punching range is largely nonsense - you are either close enough that they can get to you or you aren't. Unless you are incredibly fit and training for hours everyday, began training at the age of six and are still under 25, Muay Thai is not a practical martial art.

What? I was under the impression that there is sport Muay Thai and martial arts Muay Thai, similar to Judo and Jujitsu though less of a hard distinction.

Anyway, my point is the elbow and knee strikes. I don't really understand what you're talking about with the kicks and all. The reason Muay Thai is useful is because of its applicability in that region of distance that isn't quite grappling but is approaching, or already, inside your guard.

Though, I'm not sure what you're talking about either with the kicking and punching range being equivalent. There most certainly is a difference in range, though it can often depend on body type. If you're saying a fast person can make up the difference, well, sure, but that implies a particular adaptation through either training or random physiological luck. For most people, there is a certain range where a kick is a hell of a lot faster and more powerful than a punch would be. Maybe you have very long arms or something.

Having done the SCA thing, I can say it's a mixed bag - some of it's pretty accurate and some of it's not at all.


For historical accuracy, SCA heavy is pretty mixed. But from a purely combat point of view, it's damn good for hitting people very fast, very hard, and lots of times with sticks. And, of course, from all sorts of unusual angles - a wrap shot to the back of the head is simply something most people don't think of as possible.

Though, I'm not sure what you're talking about either with the kicking and punching range being equivalent. There most certainly is a difference in range, though it can often depend on body type. If you're saying a fast person can make up the difference, well, sure, but that implies a particular adaptation through either training or random physiological luck. For most people, there is a certain range where a kick is a hell of a lot faster and more powerful than a punch would be. Maybe you have very long arms or something.

Unless there is a big disparity in height both people are either in range of each other or not. If your opponent is in your kicking range but out of your punching range, if you try and hit them with a kick, unless they are extremely tired or incompetent they should be able to get out the way of the kick with no trouble at all leaving you in a more vulnerable position than they are. A much better option is to either stay out of range leaving it to them to close or wait for them to try a kick and then close up to counterpunch. Either way you go from out of range to within range of punching.

I though we just "gave em the chair"? lol

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_blGfuJqvbMU/SEBTacW0zPI/AAAAAAAAA-U/7qjZiYFWweE/s320/Chairshot.jpg

Unless there is a big disparity in height both people are either in range of each other or not. If your opponent is in your kicking range but out of your punching range, if you try and hit them with a kick, unless they are extremely tired or incompetent they should be able to get out the way of the kick with no trouble at all leaving you in a more vulnerable position than they are. A much better option is to either stay out of range leaving it to them to close or wait for them to try a kick and then close up to counterpunch. Either way you go from out of range to within range of punching.

Or if you've got some practice, some technique, and speed, you can hit them with a kick while they close to punch. When you're fighting someone of about the same height, a kick has a good six inches more reach than a punch, generally speaking.

Say they step forward to punch. Pull back slightly, snap a side-kick into their advancing knee. Or aim a front kick at the gut or solar plexus. The other nice advantage is that, with practice, most people can strike a heck of a lot harder with a kick than a punch.

Or if you've got some practice, some technique, and speed, you can hit them with a kick while they close to punch. When you're fighting someone of about the same height, a kick has a good six inches more reach than a punch, generally speaking.

Say they step forward to punch. Pull back slightly, snap a side-kick into their advancing knee. Or aim a front kick at the gut or solar plexus. The other nice advantage is that, with practice, most people can strike a heck of a lot harder with a kick than a punch.

This is my point, low down up close kicks make sense, high kicks don't - so that six inches of extra reach is really of little importance.

This is my point, low down up close kicks make sense, high kicks don't - so that six inches of extra reach is really of little importance.

Well, a high kick has the advantage of being a fairly powerful blow that maintains distance. Obviously there are few practical real world situations where a kick anywhere above the knee caps is expedient, but they're imaginable. Your average bar fight that generally starts with a sucker punch or, at the very least, shoving....no, you're probably never going to run into a time when you'll pull a kick to the face off.

I could kind of, as UvV mentioned, see a front kick. But if I'm in a drunken brawl I'm...well, in a drunken state most likely. Kicking and fighting intelligently are likely the furthest things from my mind. In fact, it's safe to say that my fighting style could be of the "block with your face, punch with your entire body" school. =p

Everybody know about Eastern martial arts, but there's are some really cool ones that came out of the West. A short list includes:

Bartitsu
Boyovyy hopak
Canne de combat
Pankration
Savate
Sambo
Schwingen

Anybody know any other interesting ones? Anybody studied any of these?


Stav (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stav)

Krav Maga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga)

Another thing worth discussing is why Europe didn't develop nearly as many hand-to-hand martial arts as Asia. Any theories on why that is?

Europe invented plenty. They were just never part of a religion, so they never got maintained once they became obsolete (guns were invented.)

East Asia maintained strong cultural incentives for some segment of their society to retain hand-to-hand combat techniques. Europe did not, so those skills were mostly lost.

As a practical demonstration of this, turn 18, find your local SCA branch, and ask about training as a fighter.
What? How am I supposed to turn 18 any faster than I am currently ageing? Build a time machine?


That doesn't mean you know a lot about them.
I never claimed I did. But I know enough about them to kick your arse. :p
And what do you know about those things relevant to this thread, namely Western martial arts systems?
Little, but I was only arguing that I know something about martial arts.

I never claimed I did.

Yes you did actually.

But I know enough about them to kick your arse. :p

I'm 6'1, been practicing various martial arts for over 2 years, and I've been in enough real fights to actually know what I'm doing. I don't think you could, somehow.

Yes you did actually.
No, I didn't.


I'm 6'1, been practicing various martial arts for over 2 years, and I've been in enough real fights to actually know what I'm doing. I don't think you could, somehow.

Well, I'm 6'2 and own a baseball bat.

Well, I'm 6'2 and own a baseball bat.

K great.

What? How am I supposed to turn 18 any faster than I am currently ageing? Build a time machine?

You could try persuading them to let you train earlier than usual, but that's unlikely. Indeed, a little research indicates that it's impossible in this area of the world.


Little, but I was only arguing that I know something about martial arts.

However, you made statements about WMA (western martial arts) from what you have just admitted is a position of complete ignorance.

Well, I'm 6'2 and own a baseball bat.

Crappy weapon. Way too front heavy to recover quickly in one-on-one combat.

You could try persuading them to let you train earlier than usual, but that's unlikely. Indeed, a little research indicates that it's impossible in this area of the world..
So why bring it up then?


However, you made statements about WMA (western martial arts) from what you have just admitted is a position of complete ignorance..
So, that's because the eastern ones have been around for so much longer than most of the western ones because they were not connected to religion (as someone said).


Crappy weapon. Way too front heavy to recover quickly in one-on-one combat.
Meh, I prefer fists and feet tbh.

Meh, I prefer fists and feet tbh.

So why mention you have a baseball bat then?

So why mention you have a baseball bat then?

He's holding the bat with his feet.:p

So why mention you have a baseball bat then?

Meh, it was a quick and easy comeback. I don't actually own one, but I do have plenty of Cricket Bats.

He's holding the bat with his feet.:p

I'd pay to see someone do that.

I don't actually own one

So you lied? To make yourself sound hard? On the internet?

So you lied? To make yourself sound hard? On the internet?

You're pathetic man.

Baseball bat sounds better than Cricket bat, does it not?

You're pathetic man.

Oh yes, whereas lying about yourself to try and sound hard is what?

Oh yes, whereas lying about yourself to try and sound hard is what?

Is it the lying bit or the trying to sound hard on the internet bit which is pathetic?

Is it the lying bit or the trying to sound hard on the internet bit which is pathetic?

It's both combined.

Oh yes, whereas lying about yourself to try and sound hard is what?

I wasn't trying to sound hard, like I said baseball bat sounds better and is easier to spell.

It's both combined.

Really?

I'm 6'1, been practicing various martial arts for over 2 years, and I've been in enough real fights to actually know what I'm doing. I don't think you could, somehow

Looks like someones trying to sound hard on the internet :p

I wasn't trying to sound hard, like I said baseball bat sounds better and is easier to spell.

Yes you were. You said you could kick my arse, I gave you reasons why you most likely couldn't, then you went and said "LOLOL WEL I HAZ A BAISBAL BAT LOLOLOL!!!"

Looks like someones trying to sound hard on the internet :p

I know, but to be fair, he said he could kick my arse. I posted that to demonstrate why he probably couldn't. At the risk of sounding childish, he started it.

Yes you were. You said you could kick my arse, I gave you reasons why you most likely couldn't, then you went and said "LOLOL WEL I HAZ A BAISBAL BAT LOLOLOL!!!"
No, I didn't.
I know, but to be fair, he said he could kick my arse. I posted that to demonstrate why he probably couldn't. At the risk of sounding childish, he started it.
I didn't start it, you said I knew nothing of martial arts. And then you thought you'd sound hard by saying you were 6'1 and had studied martial arts for 2 years. You're just unfortunate that I'm taller, wiser and studied martial arts for longer than you.

I didn't start it, you said I knew nothing of martial arts.

I said you knew nothing about Western martial arts, which you then admitted to know fuck all about.

And then you thought you'd sound hard by saying you were 6'1 and had studied martial arts for 2 years.

No, you said you'd kick my arse. I put forward my reasons as to why you can't.

You're just unfortunate that I'm taller, wiser and studied martial arts for longer than you.

I'll give you the first one and the last one, but you can study martial arts for ages and still be shite at fighting. Given your age, and seeing as you live on Thanet, you won't have been in many real fights. And by real I don't mean just punching, I mean full on going for it, with people smashing things over your head etc etc.

God I hate when an adult discussion devolves into a flaming spam match. It's just unprofessional...

I'll answer what I can from what I know:

The East (namely China and Japan) developed more empty hand styles than the West (Britain, since the US wasn't around when most of this stuff was developed) because of cultural differences. England was more focused on conquest and wealth, and therefore developed firearms (Chinese invented gunpowder, just never weaponized it) etc. because they were more effective weapons, and easier to train people in their use. It can take years to master an empty-handed art, where it takes mere months of a similar level of practive to become a proficient shot. I've watched guys who've never shot a gun before come out of various military basic training schools as good marksmen. Some were great, in fact. It all came down to effectiveness and numbers. A good example would be the Boxer Rebellion in China, where troops armed with rifles killed off a smaller number of excellent martial artists. A more visible example would be like that found in the movie 'The Last Samurai'. Eastern military tradition clashed with Western technology and lost.

The Chinese and Japanese were very isolationist, with very strict rules of honor and warfare. The Samurai are an excellent example. The Chinese focus on the martial arts was more spiritual, and I think that the term 'Martial' Art was derived more from the Japanese focus, since they trained in these disciplines more for combat use and less for enlightenment and self-improvement.

The western nations weren't quite as 'honorable' and sought whatever advantages they could over their enemies. They moved from horses and pikes to cannons and muskets while the Eastern nations were still focused on hands, feet, swords, and spears.

Now for my next question: As for 'Western' arts, do you mean 'Western Hemisphere'? If so, Silat, Systema, and Sambo would be 'Eastern' since Russia is technically part of the Asian continent. Krav Maga would be 'Middle Eastern' since it is Israeli in origin.

Boxing and traditional Greco-Roman wrestling wouldn't really be British either, since both were developed primarily in Greece. One can debate the boxing thing, however, since hitting someone with your fists isn't exactly a science and contests between two unarmed men have been going on since the beginning of time. The art of boxing would have really taken off once the English got a hold of it, then the Americans. The addition of standardized rules and strikes, as well as footwork, probably wasn't a Greek addition. The combination of both, otherwise known as 'Pankraton' mentioned earlier, was a Greek invention as well. It was also probably the first 'mixed' martial art since it combined the strikes of boxing with the grappling of wrestling long before 'MMA' combined kickboxing's arm and leg strikes and jiu-jitsu's grappling and submissions.

If you go by the definition of 'Westernized' then your previous listings would be correct. If you'd clairify that for me then I might be of further use.

Now for my next question: As for 'Western' arts, do you mean 'Western Hemisphere'? If so, Silat, Systema, and Sambo would be 'Eastern' since Russia is technically part of the Asian continent.

Actually, western Russia is in Europe, and that's where Systema and Sambo were inveneted, not sure about Silat.

I'll give you the first one and the last one, but you can study martial arts for ages and still be shite at fighting. Given your age, and seeing as you live on Thanet, you won't have been in many real fights. And by real I don't mean just punching, I mean full on going for it, with people smashing things over your head etc etc.

You've obviously never been to Thanet.

Actually, western Russia is in Europe, and that's where Systema and Sambo were inveneted, not sure about Silat.

Silat is from Indonesia and the Philippines.

You've obviously never been to Thanet.

It's off the coast of fucking Kent, it's not that bad.

Silat is from Indonesia and the Philippines.

Oh, is it that knife fighting thing?

It's off the coast of fucking Kent, it's not that bad.

So, you've never been, how do you know what it's like?
Like for instance I've never been to Bristol so I can't comment on it.

Oh, is it that knife fighting thing?

Mainly unarmed as far as I know.

Like for instance I've never been to Bristol so I can't comment on it.

Parts are great, others are horrific.

Parts are great, others are horrific.

You have werewolves and vampires and ghosts, don't you?-

You have werewolves and vampires and ghosts, don't you?-

Eh?

Eh?

You've never seen "being human", have you?

You've never seen "being human", have you?

No, shows like that don't appeal to me.

No, shows like that don't appeal to me.

It was set in Bristol, if any thing was set near where I live I'd watch to see if I could recognise stuff that I knew.

But then again fuck all gets filmed around here. I suppose there's more in Bristol.

It was set in Bristol,

Oh yeah, whereabouts?

I suppose there's more in Bristol.

Yeah, Skins and Casualty.

Oh yeah, whereabouts?
Totterdown aparntly. Know where that is?


QUOTE=No Names Left Damn It;14641442]Yeah, Skins and Casualty.[/QUOTE]
Didn't know that. Do they speak in your accent? (cos I've never watched either)

Totterdown aparntly. Know where that is?

Yeah, it's right near to where Tagmatium lives as well.


Didn't know that. Do they speak in your accent? (cos I've never watched either)

I've never heard anyone with a Bristol accent in Casualty other than one person, and I don't watch skins, but I don't have a Bristol accent anyway. More sort of a weird mix of Midlands, normal English and a bit of Bristol.

I've never heard anyone with a Bristol accent in Casualty other than one person, and I don't watch skins, but I don't have a Bristol accent anyway. More sort of a weird mix of Midlands, normal English and a bit of Bristol.
What do you call someone from Bristol? A Bristolian?

It was set in Bristol, if any thing was set near where I live I'd watch to see if I could recognise stuff that I knew.

But then again fuck all gets filmed around here. I suppose there's more in Bristol.

Any truth to the story of the Chicken?

Any truth to the story of the Chicken?

:confused: