NationStates Jolt Archive

Fair Enough...so how bout them Knicks? :p

You have to engage the wily Canadiens in their native language.

So, when's Halifax getting a CFL team?

I was objecting to stuff like this:

1) We are NOT very similar.
2) There are closer countries in the world: like Austria-Germany, Scandinavian countries, some arab gulf states, maybe some latin american countries, etc...
3) Values-wise US is NOT the most similar country to Canada in the world.


You're very close to the situation so little differences will seem big to you and big differences between Scandanavian countries will seem small. Certainly, countries with different languages seem to have a big gap there already.

And, out of interest, which country would you say is the most similar to Canada in terms of values?

And, out of interest, which country would you say is the most similar to Canada in terms of values?

Denmark.

You're very close to the situation so little differences will seem big to you and big differences between Scandanavian countries will seem small. Certainly, countries with different languages seem to have a big gap there already.

And, out of interest, which country would you say is the most similar to Canada in terms of values?

The thing is visitors wont be able to understand differences between Canada and US since there are many similarities on the surface. City layouts, language, brands in grocery stores, tv programs, etc...

However, fundamental differences lie beneath the surface:


Long before 9-11, Americans were changing. Their values were becoming more socially conservative, their waistlines were getting rounder, and they were more deferential to authority figures. Meanwhile, an opposite trend took root north of the border. Canadians were becoming more tolerant, open to risk, and questioning of the institutions that governed them. How is it that traditionally individualistic Americans have suddenly switched places with order-loving Canadians? Michael Adams, president of the Environics polling firm, tries to answer this question and probe the diverging values of Americans and Canadians in his book Fire and Ice.

Adams acknowledges his thesis is rather iconoclastic. Some commentators have suggested that Canadians have become simply Americans in parkas. But after 14,413 interviews over 10 years, Adams surprised even himself with his results: Canadians and Americans are not only becoming more dissimilar, they are also reversing roles, and the diverging trends have only increased since the attacks of September 11, 2001. Adams tested Canadians and Americans on over 100 values. He found that a growing number of Americans believes that "the father of the family must be master in his own home" (49 percent in 2000, up from 44 percent in 1996 and 42 percent in 1992). In Canada, fewer people agree that father knows best (18 percent in 2000, down from 26 percent in 1992). Canadians are increasingly bigger risk-takers, too. In 2000, 42 percent of Canadians and 54 percent of Americans said they did not like changing their habits. More Americans believe men are naturally superior to women, and fully 44 percent of Americans said they relate best to people who do not show emotions (compared to 30 percent of Canadians). Adams's book is heavy on statistics and light on explanations behind the trends, but it gives revealing insights into the world's only superpower and its neighbour to the north. --Alex Roslin --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

http://www.amazon.ca/Fire-Ice-United-States-Converging/dp/0143014234

As for the most similar countries in terms of values, maybe Scandinavian countries.

Interesting stuff from Amazon's page:


After living in Boston for ten months, I returned to my island home in BC and found this book in my local library. I read it in two days, and now I'm going to get it. It confirmed what I experienced as a Canadian in the States. The States comes across as more diverse than Canada, and in many ways far more conservative. For example, on the question around patriarchy, whether the man should be the head of the household, New England, the most liberal region in the United States, was more conservative than Alberta, Canada's most conservative region. So much for convergence, eh? Also, the growing ease with which Americans accept violence corresponds with what I found.

But in this thread we are focusing on the linguistic and economic aspects of the country.

Linguistically, both have English speaking majorities. That's where the similarity ends. Canada has Quebec, a large population of Francophones, where a lot of people who don't speak English live. In Canada, we have about 13 million people who don't speak English out of about 31 million (http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/hlt/97-555/T401-eng.cfm?Lang=E&T=401&GH=4&SC=1&S=99&O=A). That's about 40%.

Now, unless you're going to tell me that about 40% of all USians don't speak English, and that most of these non-abglophones speak French, you cannot make the claim that both countries are similar linguistically. C'est ne pas vrai, t'es pas comme les têtes carrées.

Economically, I should point out that while both have markets that are a blend of free market and regulated markets, that is where the similarity ends. USians don't have public healthcare, USians have much less regulation (see current global crisis for evidence), USians have a huge miltary based portion of their economy in comparison to Canada, etc. etc. etc.

So, economically, we are not that similar either.

You know, you should maybe take some classes in political science or something. This stuff should be obvious.

Umm.. last I checked... Quebecois spoke English as well.. for the most part..

I think the real question is, What country is most similar to the United States?

I think the real question is, What country is most similar to the United States?
Canada, obviously.

Anyone ridiculous who claims Canada is closer to Scandinavia than it is America is seriously misguided and is trying to push an ideological agenda.

Also, I think Canadians should take a look at some Scandinavian culture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law

This is typical Scandinavia society, and while steroetypical and there naturally are exceptions, it is really a big part of Scandinavian culture and the way people are expected to behave.

The ten rules are:

Don't think that you are special.
Don't think that you are of the same standing as us.
Don't think that you are smarter than us.
Don't fancy yourself as being better than us.
Don't think that you know more than us.
Don't think that you are more important than us.
Don't think that you are good at anything.
Don't laugh at us.
Don't think that anyone cares about you.
Don't think that you can teach us anything.

Umm.. last I checked... Quebecois spoke English as well.. for the most part..

Not really... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec#Language

Note: 80% of the population of Quebec are native French speakers, ~40% of the population is bilingual. So there's potentially 40% of the population that doesn't speak English fluently (but then given that 95% of the population of Quebec speaks French, it can be as much as 55%). It might necessarily not be "most" but it's not exactly an insignificant number of people. I mean, if you go to Montreal, you're never going to have a problem, but you might still have cashiers trade off spots with coworkers who don't speak English well enough to serve you. I'm not sure that the same applies in Quebec City. You've been to Quebec and have spoken to many people who come from there?

edit: Also, was there ever an explanation for leaving Guyana and Belize out of an anglo union? The majority of the population in each of these places speak English and it's an official language.

Umm.. last I checked... Quebecois spoke English as well.. for the most part..

Then it's a good thing I provided a link to the census statistics. That way, you can see that this idea that most Quebecois speak English is not, in fact, true.

...
edit: Also, was there ever an explanation for leaving Guyana and Belize out of an anglo union? The majority of the population in each of these places speak English and it's an official language.

Not that I know of.

Then it's a good thing I provided a link to the census statistics. That way, you can see that this idea that most Quebecois speak English is not, in fact, true.

In fact, I was under the impression that although many Quebecois speak English, French is still the lengua de facto there.

Ah the old 'Canadians are just Merkins-lite TM' argument. As intelligently proposed as ever.

Ah the old 'Canadians are just Merkins-lite TM' argument. As intelligently proposed as ever.

I thought you preferred to be called Merka Junior?

I thought you preferred to be called Merka Junior?
If that's 'you' in the singular, I prefer Princess Frou-Frou Le Popsicle de Bikini. If that's 'you' in the plural, then we prefer you to not mix us up with our retarded cousins.

If that's 'you' in the singular, I prefer Princess Frou-Frou Le Popsicle de Bikini. If that's 'you' in the plural, then we prefer you to not mix us up with our retarded cousins.

I was joking.

If that's 'you' in the singular, I prefer Princess Frou-Frou Le Popsicle de Bikini.

I'm gonna start referring to you as this from now on.

I was joking. Sheesh, and I wasn't?

Oh, right. I wasn't :p



I'm gonna start referring to you as this from now on.
I bloody insist!

Sheesh, and I wasn't?

Oh, right. I wasn't :p

I... *Tries to detect sarcasm/jokes* *Explodes*

I bloody insist!

Canadians say bloody?

I... *Tries to detect sarcasm/jokes* *Explodes*
*licks wall* Mmmm, warm and pulpy!


Canadians say bloody?Whatever I do, all Canadians do.

*licks wall* Mmmm, warm and pulpy!

Plenty more where that came from.

Whatever I do, all Canadians do.

Well, you're all just a hivemind anyway, aren't you?

If that's 'you' in the plural, then we prefer you to not mix us up with our retarded cousins.
Cute little flame. :tongue:
In fact, I was under the impression that although many Quebecois speak English, French is still the lengua de facto there.
Many Quebecois speak English, but yeah French is the language of the society there.

Cute little flame. :tongue:

Many Quebecois speak English, but yeah French is the language of the society there.

So then you're agreeing with me that Canada and the USA are not linguistically similar?

So then you're agreeing with me that Canada and the USA are not linguistically similar?
Nope. Not what I said :)

Nope. Not what I said :)

So, you think that the USA and Canada are linguistically similar, despite the fact that about 40% of Canadians don't speak English?

Do you think that 40% of USians speak French or some other language?

canada, obviously.

Anyone ridiculous who claims canada is closer to scandinavia than it is america is seriously misguided and is trying to push an ideological agenda.


lol.

America has too much power in the UK already.

It has on Canada, as well.

So, you think that the USA and Canada are linguistically similar, despite the fact that about 40% of Canadians don't speak English?

Do you think that 40% of USians speak French or some other language?

40% of Quebec /= 40% of Canada.
40% of Quebec = Approximately 9% of Canada.

Spanish = Spoken in 12% of U.S. homes.

40% of Quebec /= 40% of Canada.
40% of Quebec = Approximately 9% of Canada.

Spanish = Spoken in 12% of U.S. homes.

That's all very nice.

But I'm not talking about 40% of Quebecois being unable to speak English. I'm talking about Canada.

Canada has a population of 31,241,030.

Of those 31 million, 17,882,775 speak only English. 98,625 speak both official languages, and 10,790 speak English, French and some other language. Add those three numbers together, and you get 17,992,190. Now, 17,992,190/31,241,030 = 0.5759, or 58%

All numbers were taken from the 2006 Canadian census.
Link:
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/hlt/97-555/T401-eng.cfm?Lang=E&T=401&GH=4&SC=1&S=99&O=A

As you can plainly see, the number is 40% of Canada, not 9%. I highly doubt that 40% of the US population can't speak English.

That's all very nice.

But I'm not talking about 40% of Quebecois being unable to speak English. I'm talking about Canada.

Canada has a population of 31,241,030.

Of those 31 million, 17,882,775 speak only English. 98,625 speak both official languages, and 10,790 speak English, French and some other language. Add those three numbers together, and you get 17,992,190. Now, 17,992,190/31,241,030 = 0.5759, or 58%

All numbers were taken from the 2006 Canadian census.
Link:
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/hlt/97-555/T401-eng.cfm?Lang=E&T=401&GH=4&SC=1&S=99&O=A

As you can plainly see, the number is 40% of Canada, not 9%. I highly doubt that 40% of the US population can't speak English.

As much as I don't like this "Canada = US Jr" argument, I should point out that at the bottom of that table it explains that mother tongue is a language learned during childhood and still understood by the speaker at the time of the census. So there could be more people who learned English as adults.

Although I do recognize that there are a lot of people who don't speak English and speak a language other than French.

That's all very nice.

But I'm not talking about 40% of Quebecois being unable to speak English. I'm talking about Canada.

Canada has a population of 31,241,030.

Of those 31 million, 17,882,775 speak only English. 98,625 speak both official languages, and 10,790 speak English, French and some other language. Add those three numbers together, and you get 17,992,190. Now, 17,992,190/31,241,030 = 0.5759, or 58%

All numbers were taken from the 2006 Canadian census.
Link:
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/hlt/97-555/T401-eng.cfm?Lang=E&T=401&GH=4&SC=1&S=99&O=A

As you can plainly see, the number is 40% of Canada, not 9%. I highly doubt that 40% of the US population can't speak English.

Refers to the first language learned at home in childhood and still understood by the individual at the time of the census.

From your own link.

Mother tongue =/= only language spoken.

As much as I don't like this "Canada = US Jr" argument, I should point out that at the bottom of that table it explains that mother tongue is a language learned during childhood and still understood by the speaker at the time of the census. So there could be more people who learned English as adults.

Although I do recognize that there are a lot of people who don't speak English and speak a language other than French.

From your own link.

Mother tongue =/= only language spoken.

If you have any evidence that shows that the number of English speakers who learnt English as an adult is statistically significant enough to impact the data I showed, I would like to see it.

So, you think that the USA and Canada are linguistically similar, despite the fact that about 40% of Canadians don't speak English?

Do you think that 40% of USians speak French or some other language?


I really hate that term, USians...

But actually a great number of we Americans do speak multiple languages. A large number are bilingual Spanish-English speakers for example. Another large number also speak Italian, but most of those are located in New York/New Jersey.

I speak Russian for example, my Great Grandfather was a soldier in the Bolshevik Revolution and the Great Patriotic War. He then escaped to the west and started a family here. My ex-girlfriend was Ecuadorian and she taught me Spanish, and my present girlfriend is French (Canadian) and shes forcing me to learn French :tongue:

But actually a great number of we Americans do speak multiple languages. A large number are bilingual Spanish-English speakers for example. Another large number also speak Italian, but most of those are located in New York/New Jersey.

I speak Russian for example, my Great Grandfather was a soldier in the Bolshevik Revolution and the Great Patriotic War. He then escaped to the west and started a family here. My ex-girlfriend was Ecuadorian and she taught me Spanish, and my present girlfriend is French (Canadian) and shes forcing me to learn French :tongue:

Well, the more languages you master, Wander-sama, the better it is for you. I believe that people should strive to become polyglots.

My ex-girlfriend was Ecuadorian and she taught me Spanish, and my present girlfriend is French (Canadian) and shes forcing me to learn French :tongue:

thats why my current policy is only date Chinese and Korean girls, so i dont get forced to learn new languages.

thats why my current policy is only date Chinese and Korean girls, so i dont get forced to learn new languages.


I loved it when I was in China. Every girl I met told me I was the hottest guy they'd ever seen. My friends and I left China with ego's the size of a Titan. Sadly, we were beaten back down into harsh reality when we came back to America :(

I really hate that term, USians...

But actually a great number of we Americans do speak multiple languages. A large number are bilingual Spanish-English speakers for example. Another large number also speak Italian, but most of those are located in New York/New Jersey.

I speak Russian for example, my Great Grandfather was a soldier in the Bolshevik Revolution and the Great Patriotic War. He then escaped to the west and started a family here. My ex-girlfriend was Ecuadorian and she taught me Spanish, and my present girlfriend is French (Canadian) and shes forcing me to learn French :tongue:

That's nice for you.

Do you have any statistics that show that your experience is somehow indicative of approximately 40% of the US population?

I loved it when I was in China. Every girl I met told me I was the hottest guy they'd ever seen. My friends and I left China with ego's the size of a Titan. Sadly, we were beaten back down into harsh reality when we came back to America :(

Something like this happen
http://www.japanprobe.com/wp-content/uploads/charisma-man-comic.jpg

If you have any evidence that shows that the number of English speakers who learnt English as an adult is statistically significant enough to impact the data I showed, I would like to see it.

No, I'm not here to do your research for you. You're claiming that 40% of Canadians don't speak any English; provide some statistics that support that claim. The ones you're linking do not say what you want them to say. All your statistics show is that English was the first language learned for only 40% of Canadians.

Something like this happen
http://www.japanprobe.com/wp-content/uploads/charisma-man-comic.jpg


Pretty much. Not sure what she sees in me, but hey...I've got every mans dream! A hot French girlfriend :tongue:

No, I'm not here to do your research for you. You're claiming that 40% of Canadians don't speak any English; provide some statistics that support that claim. The ones you're linking do not say what you want them to say. All your statistics show is that English was the first language learned for only 40% of Canadians.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lan_eng_spe_percap-language-english-speakers-per-capita

Another source that confirms that less than 60% of Canadians speak English.

Pretty much. Not sure what she sees in me, but hey...I've got every mans dream! A hot French girlfriend :tongue:

French Canadians are okay. French from France all look and sound like crack whores. At least with Korean and Chinese what they are yelling at me about makes sense.

French Canadians are okay. French from France all look and sound like crack whores. At least with Korean and Chinese what they are yelling at me about makes sense.

Believe it or not, what time I've spent in France I have yet to see an attractive French girl. I simply never did! But jesus in Beijing they're everywhere :D

And I personally prefer French Canadians...I love Canada first of all, and she speaks enough English so that I can communicate with her :D

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lan_eng_spe_percap-language-english-speakers-per-capita

Another source that confirms that less than 60% of Canadians speak English.

And here's a source that shows that 83% of Canadians know the language.

http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo15-eng.htm

And another source that shows about 68% of Canadians speak English in the home regularly.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/standard/themes/RetrieveProductTable.cfm?Temporal=2001&PID=55535&APATH=3&GID=431515&METH=1&PTYPE=55440&THEME=41&FOCUS=0&AID=0&PLACENAME=0&PROVINCE=0&SEARCH=0&GC=99&GK=NA&VID=0&FL=0&RL=0&FREE=0

And here's a source that shows that 83% of Canadians know the language.

http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo15-eng.htm

And another source that shows about 68% of Canadians speak English in the home regularly.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/standard/themes/RetrieveProductTable.cfm?Temporal=2001&PID=55535&APATH=3&GID=431515&METH=1&PTYPE=55440&THEME=41&FOCUS=0&AID=0&PLACENAME=0&PROVINCE=0&SEARCH=0&GC=99&GK=NA&VID=0&FL=0&RL=0&FREE=0

I'm so proud of you. You did your own research!

Now all you have to do, in order to show that I am wrong, is show that the US has a similar linguistic make-up.

I'm so proud of you. You did your own research!

Now all you have to do, in order to show that I am wrong, is show that the US has a similar linguistic make-up.

lolflamebait

So you won't admit that you were completely wrong about your assertion that 40% of Canadians don't speak English? I wasn't arguing that the US has a similar linguistic makeup, I was arguing that your retarded claim that 40% of Canadians don't speak any English was, well, retarded, and that you were deliberately misinterpreting your statistics. And it turns out I was right.

lolflamebait

So you won't admit that you were completely wrong about your assertion that 40% of Canadians don't speak English? I wasn't arguing that the US has a similar linguistic makeup, I was arguing that your retarded claim that 40% of Canadians don't speak any English was, well, retarded, and that you were deliberately misinterpreting your statistics. And it turns out I was right.

I was wrong about the assertion that 40% of Canadians don't speak English.

I am not wrong that the USA and Canada have different liguistic make-ups, which is the point I was making with my post. If you want to pat yourself on the back for slightly changing one of the points in my argument, then go for it. However, my point still stands.

But thanks for calling me a liar, and retarded. I will keep that in mind when I reply to your posts.

I was wrong about the assertion that 40% of Canadians don't speak English.

I am not wrong that the USA and Canada have different liguistic make-ups, which is the point I was making with my post. If you want to pat yourself on the back for slightly changing one of the points in my argument, then go for it. However, my point still stands.


What's the fundamental difference? Both nations have a vast, dominant language, English, and both nations have secondary languages that are particularly dominant in certain regions. Are you harping on the fact that the percentages don't match up identically? Except for Quebec, Canada is almost linguistically identical to the US. 97.6% of Canadians speak English in some respect. 96% of Americans speak English. It's hardly a difference.

If it'll make things any better for you, I'll amend the claim that I didn't even make, to say, "except for Quebec, Canada and the US are linguistically similar."


But thanks for calling me a liar, and retarded. I will keep that in mind when I reply to your posts.

Right, with gems like this:
I'm so proud of you. You did your own research!
I'm sure I was right on the cusp of being treated with respect by you, until I was a big jerk and called your stupid claim stupid.

What's the fundamental difference? Both nations have a vast, dominant language, English, and both nations have secondary languages that are particularly dominant in certain regions. Are you harping on the fact that the percentages don't match up identically? Except for Quebec, Canada is almost linguistically identical to the US. 97.6% of Canadians speak English in some respect. 96% of Americans speak English. It's hardly a difference.

If it'll make things any better for you, I'll amend the claim that I didn't even make, to say, "except for Quebec, Canada and the US are linguistically similar."

Except for Quebec, the two nations are somewhat similar. Exactly. Except for their differences, they're the same. But when you don't ignore the differences, you'll notice the differences. Funny how that works.

Are you going to claim that ±13% percent of the US population speaks only French?

And where did you get your 97.6% from?

Except for Quebec, the two nations are somewhat similar. Exactly. Except for their differences, they're the same. But when you don't ignore the differences, you'll notice the differences. Funny how that works.

Are you going to claim that ±13% percent of the US population speaks only French?

And where did you get your 97.6% from?

Is it your contention that, because they are not linguistically identical, they are not linguistically similar? Are you able to understand how two things can be similar without being exactly the same?

Is it your contention that, because they are not linguistically identical, they are not linguistically similar? Are you able to understand how two things can be similar without being exactly the same?

No. It is my contention that not only are they not identical, but they are only similar in that they both have (differing percentages of) English speaking majorities, and that is where the similarity ends.