NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/health/24docs.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&em

A year ago, Sweden’s most prestigious medical school found itself in an international uproar after it unknowingly admitted a student who was a Nazi sympathizer and a convicted murderer, then scrambled to find a way to expel him.

It is hard to imagine how the case could get any more bizarre. But it has.

The 33-year-old student, Karl Helge Hampus Svensson, having been banished from the medical school of the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm on the ground that he falsified his high school records, has now been admitted to a second well-known medical school — Uppsala, Sweden’s oldest university.

New twists in his and another case highlight the difficulties that three of the country’s six medical schools have had in admitting and dismissing students with serious criminal offenses in just the past two years. The cases resonate far beyond Sweden, raising fundamental questions about who is fit to become a doctor.

The circumstances of Mr. Svensson’s admission to Uppsala’s first-year class — reported in January by Swedish news organizations — are unknown, because none of the officials involved will publicly discuss his case. He apparently uses an assumed name — a customary practice for Swedes seeking to remain anonymous because of a personal threat. Last week, Uppsala officials, responding to concerns about Mr. Svensson’s admission, said he had not participated in class work, but did not say why.

In another embarrassing twist, a Swedish newspaper reported last month that much of the verdict and court files regarding Bjorn Soderberg, Mr. Svensson’s murder victim, had been cut out or replaced with blank pages. The police said they had been unable to find a culprit.

And in still another case, a 24-year-old medical student at Lund University was convicted last April of raping a 14-year-old boy while he slept. A district court sentenced the student to two years in prison, but a higher court reduced the sentence to two years’ probation and medical therapy.

When the dean at Lund sought to expel the student, a national board that reviews expulsions blocked the action, saying that although the man had committed a serious crime, he was not considered a threat to people or property. The decision was then reversed by an administrative court, which upheld the expulsion; the student did not appeal.

In contrast with the United States, Swedish laws and customs are sympathetic to released offenders, saying that once they have served their time they should be treated like ordinary citizens. But the cases raise questions about protecting the rights of patients and fellow medical students and health care workers.

Entry to Swedish medical schools is highly competitive. At Uppsala, for example, a spokeswoman said there were 2,603 applicants for the spring semester and just 100 admissions. They include Mr. Svensson, who is taking up a taxpayer-financed slot that could have gone to another student.

Indeed, the Uppsala County Council, which runs all government health facilities in the area, says it will not allow Mr. Svensson to do any clinical work, which is a critical and mandatory part of medical school training. That raises questions about how he will complete a degree even if he does attend classes.

Mr. Svensson, who has not responded to numerous attempts to reach him over the last year, was convicted in the 1999 hate murder of a trade union worker and was paroled after serving 6 ½ years of an 11-year sentence — a typical penalty for murder in Sweden. He entered Karolinska in fall 2007 while still on probation; he had earned credits for medical school while in prison.

The disclosures about his past proved deeply embarrassing to the institute. Among other things, two senior faculty members on the admissions committee that interviewed him failed to ask for an explanation of the six-and-a-half-year gap in his résumé, the period he was in prison.

Swedish universities are legally prohibited from conducting background checks on applicants. To complicate matters, Mr. Svensson legally changed his surname from Hellekant after his conviction.

(second page of Article not copy/pasted for space.)


It seems in Sweden, white supremecist homicidal men can just serve 6 1/2 years in prison, then get out and get a highly competitive tax-payer supported seat in a medical school. And then, even though they will never be licensed once they graduate (because the medical board wont give a murderer one), they still cant be expelled. (well, until they caught him for lying about something related to high school)...

I applied to med school in the US this past year, and I had to fill out a background check once I got my acceptance. It just seems silly for other countries to not require the same thing...

What do you all think?

This is where certain European ultranationals go deafingly silent.

Nazis, viewing some people as inferior to others, are probably not going to treat each patient equally, and shouldn't be given the chance. Odds are, none of us are completely egalitarian, but a Nazi is proud of his/her prejudice, and there should be consequences for that.

Also, two years probation for rape? That's terrible.

Nazis, viewing some people as inferior to others, are probably not going to treat each patient equally, and shouldn't be given the chance. Odds are, none of us are completely egalitarian, but a Nazi is proud of his/her prejudice, and there should be consequences for that.

Also, two years probation for rape? That's terrible.

Well, you don't want to punish the poor rapists too much....

That would just be cruel.

*cough*

To be fair, I can't see why someone who has fully served his prison sentence should not be admitted to a university or a medical school?

On the first hand, when a sentence has been served there should be no further consequences (as long as the individual in question poses no further threat to society). No one should be punished twice for any crime.

And on the other hand, it is only in societies interest to reintegrate criminals into society and the attendance of a medical school is well suited to do so.

So, do they want ex-convicts who served their time to be treated like ordinary citizens or not?

This is where certain European ultranationals go deafingly silent.

Couldn't you have waited more that three minutes to post such a claim? Especially given that it was six in the morning GMT when this was posted.

And on the other hand, it is only in societies interest to reintegrate criminals into society and the attendance of a medical school is well suited to do so.

This. While I can't condone such a lax penalty for murder - six and a half years? Really? - it has been shown that convicts who gain degrees during or after release almost never re-offend. When you compare this to the standard reoffending rate of around sixty per percent, you see why this is a good thing.

Here in my country, it has been recognized that while everyone can dream of going to medical school, not everyone will be allowed in. It is the prerogative of the medical schools to set their admission requirements and that can include background checks and search for criminal records. [But I didn't have to do that as I was a minor when I entered med school.]

There is a particular danger to allowing certain classes of criminals to enter the medical field. For example, those with a history of child sexual abuse (pedophilia) are particularly worrisome because many pedophiles actively seek occupations that will bring them closer to their victims/children, especially those in positions of trust and power - one such profession is pediatrics (along with priesthood and scoutmasters, etc.). IMHO, murderers, are also worrisome in that medical education will expose you to a variety of ways in which to benefit - and harm - others.

In any case, the law here prohibits granting license to practice medicine to convicted felons, and those engaged in dishonest act/s, which includes falsification of records.

One of the students in the OP had falsified records. That should have - and indeed had - been enough grounds for expulsion in the first university. I wonder why he was accepted to a second one......

This. While I can't condone such a lax penalty for murder - six and a half years? Really? - it has been shown that convicts who gain degrees during of after release almost never re-offend. When you compare this to the standard reoffending rate of around sixty per percent, you see why this is a good thing.

This. Like in the US, if you have a felony against you, forget about getting a good job. People wonder why there are career criminals, but what other option do the criminals have?

oh so thats why no doctors are ever murderers I must of been mistaken what with all the James Bond films.

oh so thats why no doctors are ever murderers I must of been mistaken what with all the James Bond films.

>.>

<.<

*Straps CtP to a table, with a Robe-Goldberg-Esque killer contraption*

What a strangely stupid article, esp. for the New York Times.

It's "embarrassing" for a country to treat ex-convicts like they have in fact served their time? Yeah, god forbid someone did that.

What kinds of jobs does the author consider appropriate for someone who was in prison for murder? Street sweeping with a very soft broom?

The only problem I see with this guy is if he still subscribed to the NeoNazi ideology. As the article says: Another concern is the threat he might pose to patients who are immigrants, or their families — long a target of neo-Nazi vilification.

Other than that - wtf?

SNIP

you'll never get away with this Mr Heikoku

you'll never get away with this Mr Heikoku

Yes I will, Mr. CtP.

Yes I will, Mr. CtP.

:eek: omg I'm not a Dr *unleashes genocide on a level never before seen and gives lots of unnecessary prostate exams*

This is where certain European ultranationals go deafingly silent.

The guy served his sentence, so him going to Med School isnt what bothered me.

Him only serving 6 1/2 years for murder however, that bothers me. It is however silly to not have any backround checks.

And wait, I was under the impression that Sweden didnt have racists!

At least, thats the impression one gets from reading certian nationalist's posts or conversing with a Swede in real life...

Sweden is so fucking backwards at times. I mean what the hell are these idiots thinking:

And in still another case, a 24-year-old medical student at Lund University was convicted last April of raping a 14-year-old boy while he slept. A district court sentenced the student to two years in prison, but a higher court reduced the sentence to two years’ probation and medical therapy.

When the dean at Lund sought to expel the student, a national board that reviews expulsions blocked the action, saying that although the man had committed a serious crime, he was not considered a threat to people or property. The decision was then reversed by an administrative court, which upheld the expulsion; the student did not appeal.

Probation and medical therapy? For raping a 14 year old boy? The 14 year old boy is probably the one who needs the medical therapy, you idiots. Also....I'd love to meet the fucking idiots at that national board that said that he was not a threat to people or property. In Sweden, raping minors is not a threat to people, it seems.

Sometimes I'm just like wtf Sweden. :rolleyes:

:eek: omg I'm not a Dr *unleashes genocide on a level never before seen and gives lots of unnecessary prostate exams*

I ate a very heavy meal. Keep your finger out of there if you want it clean. :D

The only problem I see with this guy is if he still subscribed to the NeoNazi ideology. As the article says:


The problem I see with the admission of such a person is the effect it would have on the general publics perception of the medical profession.

The problem I see with the admission of such a person is the effect it would have on the general publics perception of the medical profession.
If the general public's perception is that all MDs are necessarily worthy of blind and complete trust, and are universally "very nice people", then injecting a bit of realism is probably a good thing rather than a problem.

As a Swede I can tell you that we have racist, and I doubt any Swede would say otherwise.

Furthermore, the last time I heard about it (which was a year or two ago when the story was unfolded in Sweden) they can not hinder him from reading the courses, but he will not get any practice as a medicine internship and therefore he will get no medical degree.

Him going to school after serving his time is not an issue.
What is an issue is they let him into a program that he can never use. Because like other posters said they will never let a murder get a license. Someone who has a chance to actually be a doctor could have used that seat.

Though because his court records disappeared they might not be able to stop him.

Him going to school after serving his time is not an issue.
What is an issue is they let him into a program that he can never use. Because like other posters said they will never let a murder get a license. Someone who has a chance to actually be a doctor could have used that seat.

Though because his court records disappeared they might not be able to stop him.

I think they can take care of that by simply rejecting him whenever he applies for a license. I assume of course, that they can be somewhat arbitrary.

I question why they won't let him be a doctor. It one of those, if you let 'em out of prison you should be sure they're safe things. If he can't be trusted to be a doctor, should he really be out in society at all? What if he was some other type of criminal (like a thief, or assailant), would he still never be able to become a doctor?

Sweden is so fucking backwards at times. I mean what the hell are these idiots thinking:



Probation and medical therapy? For raping a 14 year old boy? The 14 year old boy is probably the one who needs the medical therapy, you idiots. Also....I'd love to meet the fucking idiots at that national board that said that he was not a threat to people or property. In Sweden, raping minors is not a threat to people, it seems.

Sometimes I'm just like wtf Sweden. :rolleyes:

Silence racist bourgeoisie American scum. Sweden is a paradise. There is no rape in Sweden. Or nazis. Just like there are no gays in Iran;)

What a strangely stupid article, esp. for the New York Times.

It's "embarrassing" for a country to treat ex-convicts like they have in fact served their time? Yeah, god forbid someone did that.

What kinds of jobs does the author consider appropriate for someone who was in prison for murder? Street sweeping with a very soft broom?
I agree with this. I don't see the problem. He's served his time, why shouldn't he have the possibility to go to medical school?

And wait, I was under the impression that Sweden didnt have racists!

At least, thats the impression one gets from reading certian nationalist's posts or conversing with a Swede in real life...
What? How the hell did you get that impression - i.e. can you quote any posts?

It's pretty common knowledge that right-wing / neo-nazi violence is one of the bigger threats to the internal security of Sweden. The neo-nazi groups are responsible for more violence than any extreme islamist group in Sweden, for example.

Sweden is so fucking backwards at times. I mean what the hell are these idiots thinking:


Probation and medical therapy? For raping a 14 year old boy? The 14 year old boy is probably the one who needs the medical therapy, you idiots. Also....I'd love to meet the fucking idiots at that national board that said that he was not a threat to people or property. In Sweden, raping minors is not a threat to people, it seems.

Sometimes I'm just like wtf Sweden. :rolleyes:
Yes, one single verdict must mean that the entire country is backwards. Glad to see you getting to air your sweeping generalisations again. They must have become dusty.

Better said: The court seems to have mucked that verdict up, though there could be individual considerations that we aren't aware of here.

What do you all think?

I don't really see why one shouldn't get into medical school based on their political ideology.

It does remind me of a few medical schools here in Australia where during the interview they will ask you questions to see where on the political spectrum you sit. A friend of mine didn't get in to one medical school that ask these questions (must have been to right wing despite him being a moderate) not that it really bothered him, he managed to get into a better medical school in the country that doesn't bother about your ideals.

I think they can take care of that by simply rejecting him whenever he applies for a license. I assume of course, that they can be somewhat arbitrary.

I question why they won't let him be a doctor. It one of those, if you let 'em out of prison you should be sure they're safe things. If he can't be trusted to be a doctor, should he really be out in society at all? What if he was some other type of criminal (like a thief, or assailant), would he still never be able to become a doctor?

Doctors are in a unique position. They have to be trusted with our selves when we are at their weakest. He would be in a position to do harm if he showed the propensity. Prescribe drugs incorrectly, deny or delay treatment among many others.

He has shown he is not worthy to be raised to this higher position of trust. What saddens me is he has a spot at school that should have been someone else's who was worthy to be raised to that higher position of trust.

I don't really see why one shouldn't get into medical school based on their political ideology.

If someone considered my race filth, and was in favor of eradicating it, I would not want that someone to hold my life in his hands.

Only in Sweden...*shakes head*...

If someone considered my race filth, and was in favor of eradicating it, I would not want that someone to hold my life in his hands.

So don't use him.

So don't use him.

Well, Idk how it works in Sweden, but, if its anything like the US, unless he's Private Practice, you dont have much of a choice in the matter...

If you go to the ER then youre prettymuch stuck with who they give you...

If someone considered my race filth, and was in favor of eradicating it, I would not want that someone to hold my life in his hands.

Is the political views of a person reason enough to stop him or her from getting into medical school?

Do you know that he holds the same views today that he did seven years ago?

Only in Sweden...*shakes head*...

Sure about that? As far as I know, Denmark and Norway doesn't limit acceptance into medical school based on criminal records. Actually, I don't know of any European country that does so. Can you enlighten me?

Sure about that? As far as I know, Denmark and Norway doesn't limit acceptance into medical school based on criminal records. Actually, I don't know of any European country that does so. Can you enlighten me?

Sure...Only in Europe, *shakes Head* :tongue:

What? How the hell did you get that impression - i.e. can you quote any posts?

It's pretty common knowledge that right-wing / neo-nazi violence is one of the bigger threats to the internal security of Sweden. The neo-nazi groups are responsible for more violence than any extreme islamist group in Sweden, for example.

I see the average NSGer's talent to miss obvious hyperbole remains...

I see the average NSGer's talent to miss obvious hyperbole remains...

I tried a smiley this time around, lol ;)

Sure...Only in Europe, *shakes Head* :tongue:
Do they limit acceptance into medical school based on criminal records in Japan? Australia? Argentina? South Africa? Canada?

I see the average NSGer's talent to miss obvious hyperbole remains...

Sure, that's why you referred to "reading certian nationalist's posts" [sic].

Kinda reassuring to see it turns out that you simply have no idea what you're talking about.

Do they limit acceptance into medical school based on criminal records in Japan? Australia? Argentina? South Africa? Canada?


Psh, soon as we get the Anglo-American-EU-Japan-South American Alliance going, theyll all be irrelevant anyway...

Sure, that's why you referred to "reading certian nationalist's posts" [sic].

Kinda reassuring to see it turns out that you simply have no idea what you're talking about.

It was a hyperbolic way of describing the posting style of certian Swedish posters, who seem to try and give off the impression that Sweden is this paradise of milk and honey, with no problems and where everyone is morally superior enough to have no character flaws.

You know, hyperbole. You maybe should look it up. But hey, if you want to just say I dont know what Im talking about, you know, whatevers easier for you.

Psh, soon as we get the Anglo-American-EU-Japan-South American Alliance going, theyll all be irrelevant anyway...
What? Somehow that's not exactly what I was calling for!

Stop corrupting my ideas!
:D

It was a hyperbolic way of describing the posting style of certian Swedish posters, who seem to try and give off the impression that Sweden is this paradise of milk and honey, with no problems and where everyone is morally superior enough to have no character flaws.
And yet when I ask you to quote the posts where that has happened, you dismiss my request as not understanding hyperbole.

So yeah, show me where these mysterious posters (plural, I notice) have tried to give off the impression that Sweden is this paradise of milk and honey, with no problems etc.


You know, hyperbole. You maybe should look it up. But hey, if you want to just say I dont know what Im talking about, you know, whatevers easier for you.
Well, now you have the chance. Show me that you're not just making shit up, and that you had an actual point pertaining to your hyperbole. I'll wait.

And yet when I ask you to quote the posts where that has happened, you dismiss my request as not understanding hyperbole.

So yeah, show me where these mysterious posters (plural, I notice) have tried to give off the impression that Sweden is this paradise of milk and honey, with no problems etc.


Well, now you have the chance. Show me that you're not just making shit up, and that you had an actual point pertaining to your hyperbole. I'll wait.

To be blunt, I have better things to do with my time. You know exactly what Im talking about and youre just playing dumb. Its obvious in your posts.

Eugh. Still nothing on Bayer, mind.

So don't use him.

Where can I view the political profile of my doctor?

And yet when I ask you to quote the posts where that has happened, you dismiss my request as not understanding hyperbole.

So yeah, show me where these mysterious posters (plural, I notice) have tried to give off the impression that Sweden is this paradise of milk and honey, with no problems etc.

Most of these fall under the "Casting the First Stone in Glass Houses" vein:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14543010&postcount=19

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14410208&postcount=10

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14398618&postcount=1

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14392174&postcount=4

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14391360&postcount=9

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14362403&postcount=145

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14362203&postcount=139

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14346392&postcount=3

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14340479&postcount=8

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14317018&postcount=5

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14317005&postcount=2

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14301116&postcount=54

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14301088&postcount=48

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14301069&postcount=43

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14203609&postcount=4

To be blunt, I have better things to do with my time. You know exactly what Im talking about and youre just playing dumb. Its obvious in your posts.
Quite. You can't find the posts I asked for since you were making shit up. And even a quick search would easily have revealed how wrong you were, so it's a good thing that you didn't waste your time:

Some people say that Sweden is the most successful society in the world. Others say that Swedes are the most benevolent people in the world. Those people, apart from being figments, clearly have no idea what they're talking about.

Really stupid thread, by the by.


Next time you're trying to make a point through the masterful use of hyperbole, have an actual point, eh? It works better that way.

Most of these fall under the "Casting the First Stone in Glass Houses" vein:

Indeed. None of them, however, are designed to give off the impression that Sweden is this paradise of milk and honey, with no problems etc.