NationStates Jolt Archive


Fascism sinks its ugly claws deeper into UK society

Ledgersia
24-03-2009, 07:19
Not sure how reliable this paper (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4987415/All-travel-plans-to-be-tracked-by-Government.html) is, but given the UK's record of the past few years, there's little reason to doubt it. At the rate the UK is sinking, it will soon make Mussolini's Italy look like a libertarian paradise. Not even the U.S. is this tyrannical (yet...).
Anti-Social Darwinism
24-03-2009, 07:40
That's scary. Never mind the invasion of privacy, just the very thought of all that information being under government control gives me the shivers. Especially when you consider that most government agencies leak information like sieves.
Ledgersia
24-03-2009, 07:47
Then there are the security cameras everywhere, the "anti-terror" legislation, the national I.D. cards that are on the way, etc.
Wilgrove
24-03-2009, 07:50
All Hail Big Brother!
Geniasis
24-03-2009, 07:51
I notice it was mentioned that this might not be legal under EU law. Would it be possible to expand on that a little?
Christmahanikwanzikah
24-03-2009, 07:53
Derscon shot me a different article on the same subject about a week ago. I couldn't pull it up, but yeah, it's pretty disconcerting. Even attempting to monitor those on a swim across borders...
Ledgersia
24-03-2009, 07:54
I notice it was mentioned that this might not be legal under EU law. Would it be possible to expand on that a little?

I don't know anything about that. If anyone else does, feel free to fill us in.
Ferrous Oxide
24-03-2009, 08:00
I notice it was mentioned that this might not be legal under EU law. Would it be possible to expand on that a little?

The EU doing something right? I don't believe it.
Ledgersia
24-03-2009, 08:03
The EU doing something right? I don't believe it.

I don't, either.
Lord Tothe
24-03-2009, 08:21
It can't be totalitarianism - 'Your travel itinerary, please" doesn't sound as evil as "Papers please, comrade" so it can't be bad. And that British accent is so non-threatening. Nope, you're imagining things. :p

But seriously, if this report is true, the British people are in deep shit. This is absurd.
Gauthier
24-03-2009, 08:26
We'll know it's bad when Alan Moore starts bitching about how the British Government stole his ideas.
Ledgersia
24-03-2009, 08:29
We'll know it's bad when Alan Moore starts bitching about how the British Government stole his ideas.

:tongue:

[/thread]
Dregruk
24-03-2009, 08:34
I notice it was mentioned that this might not be legal under EU law. Would it be possible to expand on that a little?

It's possible it's an infringement of a few Community rights; free movement of persons, right to a private family life, etc.

It'd need to be challenged to find out properly, though. And it can't get challenged unless it's enacted.
SaintB
24-03-2009, 10:11
This is ridiculous legislation, totally absurd, its also not safe it makes it easier for things like social security number, names, and bank account numbers to be stolen than it already is.
Psychotic Mongooses
24-03-2009, 10:13
It's possible it's an infringement of a few Community rights; free movement of persons
Doubtful.
No one is being denied the right to move freely, just to provide details of where you are leaving the country to. It's a border control issue, linked to immigration.

right to a private family life, etc.


Possibly, although I doubt it. More likely it's not compatible with other Member States/EU legislation - not Community rights.

I hope people aren't trying to simply blame the current government for this - the 'island' mentality has permeated UK/EC relations for decades, across both parties being in power. Nothing new to see here.

"It allows us to secure the UK's Borders by screening people as they travel in and out of the UK." - is a fcuking laugh, but what's funnier is that it applies to UK citizens traveling between Britain and Northern Ireland too. UK citizens will need passports for traveling in the UK :D
Netherwood
24-03-2009, 10:26
Well I think it's redicilous to call these safety measures to "fascist", or compare them to Mussolini's Italy. Yet, I don't think these measures are nessisary at all. It'll cost millions of pounds and you won't catch a single terrorist. It's just a bunch of tedious extra paperwork, some stupid government idea in a lame attempt to stop "terrorism" in it's tracks while all you do is check, double check and triple check the private details of nice old ladies from across the street as they go on elderly trips to the Bahamas.
Risottia
24-03-2009, 11:16
given the UK's record of the past few years, there's little reason to doubt it. At the rate the UK is sinking, it will soon make Mussolini's Italy look like a libertarian paradise. Not even the U.S. is this tyrannical (yet...).

That's what the Britons get for being so euro-skeptical. Now I'd guess that they wish their government had signed the Schengen treaty.

wiki:Schengen Area
The Schengen Area is a group of twenty-five European countries which have abolished all border controls between each other. It originates from the eponymous agreement signed in the Luxembourgish town of Schengen in 1985, which has since been absorbed into the European Union. All EU members except Ireland and the United Kingdom are required to implement Schengen and, with the exception of Bulgaria, Cyprus and Romania, have done so. Three non-member states, Iceland, Norway and Switzerland, have also implemented the Schengen rules. As such, the Area currently covers a population of over 450 million people and an area of 4,312,099 square kilometres (1,664,911 sq mi).

Implementing the Schengen rules involves eliminating border controls with other Schengen members while simultaneously strengthening border controls with non-member states. The rules include provisions on common policy on the temporary entry of persons (including the Schengen visa), the harmonisation of external border controls, and cross-border police and judicial co-operation.
DaWoad
24-03-2009, 11:23
*looks up from reading orwell*
*looks back down at book*
*double takes*
*immediatly begins writing book in which unknown forum poster/ univ student with the name Dawoad is miraculously given lotsa money, the ability to fly, life eternal and near mod-like powers.*
*also the ability to spell.. . . *
Psychotic Mongooses
24-03-2009, 11:25
Anyone actually have a source for this or are we going to have to simply go with 'journalistic integrity' for its accuracy?
The_pantless_hero
24-03-2009, 11:38
All Hail Big Brother!

Which is funny coming from some one in America.
Rambhutan
24-03-2009, 12:03
According to a recent report the several UK Government databases not only break human rights law, but breach their own data protection legislation.

I am beginning to believe that a line has been crossed in the UK and we need to move back towards freedom.
Psychotic Mongooses
24-03-2009, 12:16
According to a recent report the several UK Government databases not only break human rights law, but breach their own data protection legislation.

I am beginning to believe that a line has been crossed in the UK and we need to move back towards freedom.

You might be referring to the "Marper v the UK" case in the European Court of Human Rights: http://www.edri.org/edri-gram/number6.24/echr-marper-case-dna-uk On 4 December 2008, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) gave its judgement in the Marper case related to the controversial National DNA Database used by the UK Police for criminal investigations, stating the retention of cellular samples, fingerprints and DNA profiles constitutes an infringement of the right for private life as per Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

The case was brought to court in 2004 by Michael Marper and a boy called "S" who, in separate, unrelated cases, had been taken their DNA after having been arrested. The charges were dropped in both cases but the UK police refused to destroy the DNA samples of the two individuals on the basis of the British law which allowed the retention of DNA and fingerprints.


Case: http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/ECHR/2008/1581.html
Rambhutan
24-03-2009, 12:23
You might be referring to the "Marper v the UK" case in the European Court of Human Rights: http://www.edri.org/edri-gram/number6.24/echr-marper-case-dna-uk

Case: http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/ECHR/2008/1581.html

I was thinking of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7955205.stm

but the one you mention strengthens the argument too.
Psychotic Mongooses
24-03-2009, 12:34
I was thinking of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7955205.stm

but the one you mention strengthens the argument too.

Sweeeeeeeet... and very recent.

(have to present a report on UK DNA retention policy in... 3 hours. Thank you :D )
Rambhutan
24-03-2009, 12:38
Sweeeeeeeet... and very recent.

(have to present a report on UK DNA retention policy in... 3 hours. Thank you :D )

Glad to be inadvertantly useful :)
Sirmomo1
24-03-2009, 12:57
The Rowntree report is written by critics of these databases, not dispassionate academics.
PartyPeoples
24-03-2009, 12:58
Border controls/the island mentality has always been an issue in the UK, nothing new really - also wouldn't agree that fascism is digging deeper into our society... Although these measures (if they're actually real heh) if enacted I'd be getting petitions signed and poking some local MP's/Councillors about it - mostly because I don't trust my Government/City Council/Government Bureacrats with my personal and financial info 'cos of their appaling track record.
Rambhutan
24-03-2009, 13:15
The Rowntree report is written by critics of these databases, not dispassionate academics.

The JRF are independent and politically neutral. They hire dispassionate academics to carry out their research.
Sirmomo1
24-03-2009, 13:27
The JRF are independent and politically neutral. They hire dispassionate academics to carry out their research.

David Aaronovitch: "There is a certain economy to the way in which non-governmental reports seem to be commissioned these days. Yesterday the Joseph Rowntree Reform Foundation published a report - Database State - variously described as coming from a “panel of experts” and as being “the first comprehensive review of Britain's major databases”. One of its authors, Ross Anderson, told reporters that the nation's “database state has become a financial, ethical and administrative disaster”.

The economy I referred to comes from this having been Professor Anderson's view before he was ever commissioned to survey the issue, let alone report on it. Like almost every other member of the report's team he is part of a body called the Foundation for Information Policy Research, a charity one of whose purposes is to combat what it considers to be the pernicious spread of the “database state”. The FIPR, which was commissioned by Rowntree, has on its advisory council the excellent Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, and the tireless Phil Booth, of the anti-ID card campaigning group, No2ID.

I am not impugning the nobility of the cause or the intellectual integrity of those espousing it. The point I am making is that, as far as I can see, not a single member of the report team came to the table with a contrary view. Nevertheless, their report was treated as though it had emerged from a body of dispassionate academics engaged in open inquiry."
No Names Left Damn It
24-03-2009, 13:46
British accent

No such thing.
No Names Left Damn It
24-03-2009, 13:46
Fuck this.
No Names Left Damn It
24-03-2009, 13:49
That's what the Britons get for being so euro-skeptical.

How d'you work that out?
Forsakia
24-03-2009, 14:29
The JRF are independent and politically neutral. They hire dispassionate academics to carry out their research.

I'm pretty sure JRF donates to the Lib Dems, I think they're one of our largest donors, if not the largest.
Hydesland
24-03-2009, 14:40
Not sure how reliable this paper (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4987415/All-travel-plans-to-be-tracked-by-Government.html) is, but given the UK's record of the past few years, there's little reason to doubt it. At the rate the UK is sinking, it will soon make Mussolini's Italy look like a libertarian paradise. Not even the U.S. is this tyrannical (yet...).

Oh God, the sensationalism, it's too much to handle, it really is. Seriously, Mussolini? Jesus Christ... Especially from such a naff source.
Rambhutan
24-03-2009, 15:07
I'm pretty sure JRF donates to the Lib Dems, I think they're one of our largest donors, if not the largest.

The JRF is a charity and it would not be legal for them to do so. There however a number of 'Rowntree' organisations - you might be thinking of one of the others.
Forsakia
24-03-2009, 15:16
The JRF is a charity and it would not be legal for them to do so. There however a number of 'Rowntree' organisations - you might be thinking of one of the others.

Ah yes, we get cash from the JR Reform Trust apparently.
Neo Bretonnia
24-03-2009, 15:25
What is all of this for? Has there been a rash of bombings over in the UK recently that I hadn't heard about, perpetrated by citizens?
Forsakia
24-03-2009, 15:31
I wouldn't worry, it involves setting up an IT system, which with the current government means it won't be operational for a fair while and when it is won't work properly anyway.
Allemonde
24-03-2009, 15:37
We'll know it's bad when Alan Moore starts bitching about how the British Government stole his ideas.

:tongue:

Shit Alan Moore should sue the UK gvt. Stange to believe that the Labour party would go from center left to far right!!! In the book it was the conservatices that became fascist. Hmm irony.

Sucks tho cause i'm origanlly from the UK and I was hoping to go back.
Risottia
24-03-2009, 16:13
I have been asked why I think that the Britons are euroskeptical.
Here's why.
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs214_tables.pdf

Most notably, 50% of the Britons who oppose the EU draft constitutional treaty do so because they fear national sovereignity loss. I'd call this euroskepticism, or anti-EU stance.

The UK government, of course, tries to stay close to its electors' feelings. This way it didn't sign the Schengen treaty, which would, by the way, protect the British citizens from excessive control on their freedom of movement.
Ifreann
24-03-2009, 16:23
I'm sure this will stop terrorism in its tracks.
No Names Left Damn It
24-03-2009, 16:40
I have been asked why I think that the Britons are euroskeptical.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking why you thought this had anything to do with us being euro-sceptics.
The One Eyed Weasel
24-03-2009, 17:57
What is all of this for? Has there been a rash of bombings over in the UK recently that I hadn't heard about, perpetrated by citizens?

See, that would make too much sense.

I got a laugh from you people that say it's no big deal. The government is basically tracking its citizens, and you say "it's no big deal". No wonder they can implement this type of legislation over there.
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 18:02
Maybe it's just me, but I can't see the big deal here. Frankly, I'm surprised something like this didn't exist before.

I've always assumed that when I enter or leave the US, that information is logged...I just...I can't work an outrage over this.
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 18:04
I got a laugh from you people that say it's no big deal. The government is basically tracking its citizens, and you say "it's no big deal". No wonder they can implement this type of legislation over there.

The government is tracking who crosses its borders. What about it? Would you prefer they not?
The One Eyed Weasel
24-03-2009, 18:09
The government is tracking who crosses its borders. What about it? Would you prefer they not?

Coming in is one thing, and non-citizens leaving is alright, but citizens that are leaving the country for the day? People swimming the channel?? Come on, that's ridiculous.
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 18:12
Coming in is one thing, and non-citizens leaving is alright, but citizens that are leaving the country for the day? People swimming the channel?? Come on, that's ridiculous.

so it's ok to treat other people badly then? Because that's what this post boils down to. "It's a horrible invasion of our rights, unless, you know, it's done to someone else"
Cosmopoles
24-03-2009, 18:15
Maybe it's just me, but I can't see the big deal here. Frankly, I'm surprised something like this didn't exist before.

I've always assumed that when I enter or leave the US, that information is logged...I just...I can't work an outrage over this.

The length of time the data is kept and amount of detail seem pretty excessive. And then there's the British government's excellent reputation for data security...

I'd like to know how the other European countries manage without this sort of thing.
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 18:16
But, hell, let's think this true. Let's pretend I'm a British citizen, living in the London. And let's say I'm wanted for, oh, I dunno...murder.

Wanna know the first thing I'm gonna do? I'm going to get one one of those "one day trips" to France, one of those harmless little "let's get on a boat, and go to the northern shore of France, buy cheap shit, and get on the boat again" trips.

And then I'm not gonna get on the boat again.

And now I'm a wanted murderer. In another country. And now nobody has any idea that I'm gone. Because I'm a British citizen, who took a harmless day trip to France.
Ifreann
24-03-2009, 18:17
The length of time the data is kept and amount of detail seem pretty excessive. And then there's the British government's excellent reputation for data security...

I'd like to know how the other European countries manage without this sort of thing.

The terrorists have already taken over the rest of Europe.
The One Eyed Weasel
24-03-2009, 18:28
so it's ok to treat other people badly then? Because that's what this post boils down to. "It's a horrible invasion of our rights, unless, you know, it's done to someone else"

That's a bullshit argument and you know it. Non citizens need to logged coming in and going out because of visas and the like, you know, because they're not citizens of the country. But their travel plans shouldn't be logged, I'm not agreeing with that.

But, hell, let's think this true. Let's pretend I'm a British citizen, living in the London. And let's say I'm wanted for, oh, I dunno...murder.

Wanna know the first thing I'm gonna do? I'm going to get one one of those "one day trips" to France, one of those harmless little "let's get on a boat, and go to the northern shore of France, buy cheap shit, and get on the boat again" trips.

And then I'm not gonna get on the boat again.

And now I'm a wanted murderer. In another country. And now nobody has any idea that I'm gone. Because I'm a British citizen, who took a harmless day trip to France.

And even with this system in place, you really think this wanted murderer is going to log his travel plans? Come on.
Cosmopoles
24-03-2009, 18:31
But, hell, let's think this true. Let's pretend I'm a British citizen, living in the London. And let's say I'm wanted for, oh, I dunno...murder.

Wanna know the first thing I'm gonna do? I'm going to get one one of those "one day trips" to France, one of those harmless little "let's get on a boat, and go to the northern shore of France, buy cheap shit, and get on the boat again" trips.

And then I'm not gonna get on the boat again.

And now I'm a wanted murderer. In another country. And now nobody has any idea that I'm gone. Because I'm a British citizen, who took a harmless day trip to France.

Is it necessary to store people's travel details for ten years to prevent this sort of thing? Or to record the exact details of their trip? Presumably countries in the Schengen Area are not finding themselves unable to track fleeing criminals, nor are the British police currently unable to track down wanted murderers who have left the country.
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 18:32
And even with this system in place, you really think this wanted murderer is going to log his travel plans? Come on.

The e-Borders scheme has already screened over 82m passengers traveling to Britain, leading to more than 2,900 arrests, for crimes including murder, drug dealing and sex offenses.

Were you under some foolish impression that this system is something like "well, if you wouldn't mind logging on to this website and filling out a little survey before you go, we'd appreciate it!"

They're obligating travel entities to check passports and retain information on their customers. When this article says "travel plans" I don't think they mean "well, i'm going to go to the beach for a few hours, then maybe get something to eat..." It's more of a "who are you, where are you going, how long are you staying, when are you coming back?" sorta system.

I see nothing in this article that requires passengers to somehow disclose the intimate details of their vacation itinerary.
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 18:36
Is it necessary to store people's travel details for ten years to prevent this sort of thing? Or to record the exact details of their trip? Presumably countries in the Schengen Area are not finding themselves unable to track fleeing criminals, nor are the British police currently unable to track down wanted murderers who have left the country.

actually, as you'll note from the article, the British government currently does not require people to show passports when leaving the country. That's one of the changes being implemented.

And maybe that's my perspective fault. EVERY time you leave the country in the US you're asked for a passport. It's pretty much common. The fact that a country would NOT ask its departing people for a passport, frankly boggles the mind.
Cosmopoles
24-03-2009, 18:40
actually, as you'll note from the article, the British government currently does not require people to show passports when leaving the country. That's one of the changes being implemented.

And maybe that's my perspective fault. EVERY time you leave the country in the US you're asked for a passport. It's pretty much common. The fact that a country would NOT ask its departing people for a passport, frankly boggles the mind.

What I want to know though is why we need this and the rest of Europe doesn't. Is it a serious problem for the 25 neighbouring countries who don't have such a requirement?
Forsakia
24-03-2009, 18:41
actually, as you'll note from the article, the British government currently does not require people to show passports when leaving the country. That's one of the changes being implemented.

And maybe that's my perspective fault. EVERY time you leave the country in the US you're asked for a passport. It's pretty much common. The fact that a country would NOT ask its departing people for a passport, frankly boggles the mind.

You can be when leaving the UK. They don't do it to everyone but pull out people to check their documents.
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 18:43
You can be when leaving the UK. They don't do it to everyone but pull out people to check their documents.

see, that's just it. In the US? It's not a "can be". It's an IS. If you're leaving the country you WILL be asked for a passport. If, for no other reason, to ensure you have proper identification when you arrive at your destination, and that when you return, you're actually permitted to come back in.
Forsakia
24-03-2009, 18:47
see, that's just it. In the US? It's not a "can be". It's an IS. If you're leaving the country you WILL be asked for a passport. If, for no other reason, to ensure you have proper identification when you arrive at your destination, and that when you return, you're actually permitted to come back in.

US-Canadian border? Esp pre 9-11
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 18:49
US-Canadian border? Esp pre 9-11

an exception, yes. Not any more though.
Forsakia
24-03-2009, 18:51
an exception, yes. Not any more though.

When you have two borders, one of them being an exception iis fairly notable.
Yootopia
24-03-2009, 18:53
Not sure how reliable this paper (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4987415/All-travel-plans-to-be-tracked-by-Government.html) is, but given the UK's record of the past few years, there's little reason to doubt it. At the rate the UK is sinking, it will soon make Mussolini's Italy look like a libertarian paradise. Not even the U.S. is this tyrannical (yet...).
Yeah we're not exactly like Mussolini's Italy at the moment -_-

This is a bit of an inconvenience, mind.
Sdaeriji
24-03-2009, 18:54
When you have two borders, one of them being an exception iis fairly notable.

That's very much not how it works. Leaving the country is not measured by the physical borders one can cross.
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 18:56
When you have two borders, one of them being an exception iis fairly notable.

By that logic, this entire point is moot, as Great Britain shares a border with...nobody, given that it's an island.

You see, we have these things called planes..
Sdaeriji
24-03-2009, 19:04
By that logic, this entire point is moot, as Great Britain shares a border with...nobody, given that it's an island.

You see, we have these things called planes..

Picking nits here, but the UK shares a border with Ireland and, technically, Spain.
Forsakia
24-03-2009, 19:08
By that logic, this entire point is moot, as Great Britain shares a border with...nobody, given that it's an island.

You see, we have these things called planes..

It works as a land border, comparable to the great lakes etc. Besides you were talking about the idea, as applies to the Schengen countries, rather than Britain itself.
Helertia
24-03-2009, 19:12
The Independant is traditionally very reliable, but you never know. I don't think I'm exagerating to say this is ALL the BNP's (British National Party) fault. They've been putting as much pressure as they can on people to cut immigration (They are a racist party) and this is turn has made Liberals put pressure on the government to put a dent in the BNP's membership figures. The government are getting hugely depserate and are resorting to wacko plans such as this. However, we still have two differneces with Facist Italy - Free press, and the public outrage over plans such as this, and it's the same with ID cards and the proposed national database. £50 says that none are ever implemented, and if they are, they'll go come the next election - For all Non-UK residents, Labour, the party in power, is desperatly trying to cling on to power (polls put around 23% to 35% planning to vote labour) and the Conservatives look likely to get in next election. This has resulted in a frenzy of activity and craziness from Downing Street as they try to gain support. As far as I can tell, either way, we lose. The Conservatives are the ones who caused the recession in the 80's (or at least made it a lot worse) and are going to send the country into a right wing hell if they get in, whereas labour are completely inept and fail at everything they do and come up with stuff like this, and are turning more and more rightwing s they go along
Yootopia
24-03-2009, 19:24
The Conservatives are the ones who caused the recession in the 80's
As much as I hate to say anything good about the Conservatives, the recession was really not their fault. It was a global second wave of problems in the international market after the earlier 1973 oil crisis. And they did fix London up. Shame they utterly destroyed the Union in doing so, mind.
Lacadaemon
24-03-2009, 19:26
By that logic, this entire point is moot, as Great Britain shares a border with...nobody, given that it's an island.


Well great britain might not, but the UK does.
Helertia
24-03-2009, 19:33
As much as I hate to say anything good about the Conservatives, the recession was really not their fault. It was a global second wave of problems in the international market after the earlier 1973 oil crisis. And they did fix London up. Shame they utterly destroyed the Union in doing so, mind.

You might have missed the next bit "or at least made it a lot worse" Which they undeniably did.
Yootopia
24-03-2009, 19:35
You might have missed the next bit "or at least made it a lot worse" Which they undeniably did.
Seeing as there's no crash-less control experiment, that's a bit of a tricky argument either way.
The One Eyed Weasel
24-03-2009, 20:07
Were you under some foolish impression that this system is something like "well, if you wouldn't mind logging on to this website and filling out a little survey before you go, we'd appreciate it!"

They will be expected to use the internet to send their details each time they leave the country and would face a fine of up to £5,000 should they fail to do so.
Basically.

They're obligating travel entities to check passports and retain information on their customers. When this article says "travel plans" I don't think they mean "well, i'm going to go to the beach for a few hours, then maybe get something to eat..." It's more of a "who are you, where are you going, how long are you staying, when are you coming back?" sorta system.

I see nothing in this article that requires passengers to somehow disclose the intimate details of their vacation itinerary.

Passengers leaving every international sea port, station or airport will have to supply detailed personal information as well as their travel plans. So-called "booze crusiers" who cross the Channel for a couple of hours to stock up on wine, beer and cigarettes will be subject to the rules.

Even swimmers attempting to cross the Channel and their support teams will be subject to the rules which will require the provision of travellers' personal information such as passport and credit card details, home and email addresses and exact travel plans.

Eh?

actually, as you'll note from the article, the British government currently does not require people to show passports when leaving the country. That's one of the changes being implemented.

And that's an alright change. One I agree with, and have agreed with in previous posts. I don't understand the need for travel plans, credit card details, and email addresses to be given though. That's just bullshit.
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 20:47
Picking nits here, but the UK shares a border with Ireland and, technically, Spain.

Yes, the UNITED KINGDOM shares a border with Ireland. I said "Great Britain". Great Britain is the island that has England, Wales, and Scotland.
Call to power
24-03-2009, 20:54
you' know what its a pain in my arse but I really don't see this being that big a deal

Yes, the UNITED KINGDOM shares a border with Ireland. I said "Great Britain". Great Britain is the island that has England, Wales, and Scotland.

what about the chunnel? *imagines future underground war with the French-Chinese*
No Names Left Damn It
24-03-2009, 21:15
Picking nits here, but the UK shares a border with Ireland and, technically, Spain.

But Britain doesn't, and Gibralatar isn't par of the UK anyway, it's a crown dependency, so you're totally wrong there.
Sdaeriji
24-03-2009, 21:30
Yes, the UNITED KINGDOM shares a border with Ireland. I said "Great Britain". Great Britain is the island that has England, Wales, and Scotland.

But the original article isn't about what the "British" government is doing, it's about what the UK government is doing. Unless we're believing that they are literally only enacting this policy in Great Britain, and anyone leaving the country through Northern Ireland will not be subject to the same restrictions.
Gravlen
24-03-2009, 22:21
Not sure how reliable this paper (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4987415/All-travel-plans-to-be-tracked-by-Government.html) is, but given the UK's record of the past few years, there's little reason to doubt it. At the rate the UK is sinking, it will soon make Mussolini's Italy look like a libertarian paradise. Not even the U.S. is this tyrannical (yet...).

Hyperbole much?

That said, I see two potential areas where this could be in violation of EU Directives and EU law:


EU Directive 2004/38/EC


Article 4
Right of exit

1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, all Union citizens with a valid identity card or passport and their family members who are notnationals of a Member State and who hold a valid passport shall have the right to leave the territory of a Member State to travel to another Member State.

2. No exit visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on the persons to whom paragraph 1 applies.

3. Member States shall, acting in accordance with their laws, issue to their own nationals, and renew, an identity card or passport stating their nationality.

4. The passport shall be valid at least for all Member States and for countries through which the holder must pass when travelling between Member States. Where the law of a Member State does not provide for identity cards to be issued, the period of validity of any passport on being issued or renewed shall be not less than five years.

...if this can be seen as a hinderance to the right of exit. I doubt it, but who knows?




Storing the information on a Government database for around ten years

Seems like a long time. I thought the EU had some restrictions on this, but I can't remember, and can't be bothered to look further right now.
Krytenia
24-03-2009, 22:29
Ah, the Daily Torygraph...
Psychotic Mongooses
24-03-2009, 22:57
Yes, the UNITED KINGDOM shares a border with Ireland. I said "Great Britain". Great Britain is the island that has England, Wales, and Scotland.

Neo, UK law applies to the UK. British law.... doesn't exist in the sense you think it does in that post. It's lazy journalism when they switch between 2 terms. Remember this is simply an article in a newspaper - not a law we're looking at.

I know what you're saying and I see your points, but you realise that there are 4.5 million people on the UK DNA database, which includes people who have been acquitted and had charges dropped against them, or as was the case until recently in Scotland, even if you just gave a statement/were a witness to a crime - your DNA is logged. It's ridiculous.

That's excessive and given data retention is riddled with security lapses - that's more terrifying. The average UK citizen is logged on approximately 700 databases.
Soufrika
24-03-2009, 23:23
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
Especially something this significant.
Conserative Morality
24-03-2009, 23:29
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
Especially something this significant.
Yeah. Altough I've always remembered it as "He who would sacrifice a little freedom, for a little security, deserves neither, and will lose both."

Sorry for being so nitpicky.:$
Neo Art
24-03-2009, 23:33
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

So if I'm standing next to you and a cop, that cop shouldn't try to stop me when I, say...stab you in the face?

Because, after all, my freedom to stab you in the face should not be sacrificed for your security.
Gravlen
24-03-2009, 23:59
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
Especially something this significant.

A witty saying proves nothing.
- Voltaire
Svalbardania
25-03-2009, 00:39
A witty saying proves nothing.
- Voltaire

And as Einstein said, attributing a pithy quote to someone famous doesn't stop it being pithy.:tongue:
Sarrowquand
25-03-2009, 04:09
But, hell, let's think this true. Let's pretend I'm a British citizen, living in the London. And let's say I'm wanted for, oh, I dunno...murder.

Wanna know the first thing I'm gonna do? I'm going to get one one of those "one day trips" to France, one of those harmless little "let's get on a boat, and go to the northern shore of France, buy cheap shit, and get on the boat again" trips.

And then I'm not gonna get on the boat again.

And now I'm a wanted murderer. In another country. And now nobody has any idea that I'm gone. Because I'm a British citizen, who took a harmless day trip to France.

But that isn't even the justification for this scheme. Does that not suggest in itself that there are already methods in place to stop that from happening that work just fine? Or at least well enough that it isnt already a giant exploding catastrophe of everyone running off to the euro zone when they've been naughty.


actually, as you'll note from the article, the British government currently does not require people to show passports when leaving the country. That's one of the changes being implemented.

And maybe that's my perspective fault. EVERY time you leave the country in the US you're asked for a passport. It's pretty much common. The fact that a country would NOT ask its departing people for a passport, frankly boggles the mind.

But they don't restrict you movements when you travel between states in the union do they? Europe has been trying to move towards something similar, free travel should ease trade and tourism I imagine the groups that want that find this a little bit annoying.
Rambhutan
25-03-2009, 10:53
While Neo has shown that some of these things the UK government is bringing in are to be expected, I am concerned at that rate they are bringing things in. Today another story in the BBC about the government planning to store info on social networking contacts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7962631.stm

Seeing as the government has never managed to get any large scale IT project to work despite massively overspending, this is not only an invasion of privacy but a huge waste of money. I doubt they can even make sense of the vast amount of data they collect all ready.