NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay. So, I'm reading the delightful link provided in one thread here about the horrid "Left Behind" series.

And I come upon this:

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/page/18/ - "But none of this matters to the prophecy nuts who are convinced that the Antichrist will be a man of peace. And since they believe that the most important thing for Christians to do is to be on the lookout against the Antichrist, and vigilantly opposed to his evil ways, they believe that Christians must oppose anyone who speaks of, pursues, or tries to make, peace."

Is this stuff for real? I mean, I always fancied myself knowledgeable about American culture, but never in my wildest dreams I ever supposed there to be a group that roots against peace of any kind because they believe that's what Satan wants.

Really, do you folks realize how much this sounds like a medieval fantasy religion? Bane, from Forgotten Realms, or Hextor, come to mind!

Is this real? Is this possible?

This is the same group of people who support Israel completely because the world can't end unless Israel exists. So if the Arabs would wipe them out then the world would just continue.

I love those people. I rarely laugh harder in a time when I'm not reading/listening to one of those nuts.

I love those people. I rarely laugh harder in a time when I'm not reading/listening to one of those nuts.

But you guys do realize how much like a cult of Bane they seem?

But you guys do realize how much like a cult of Bane they seem?

Yeah. I only hope that the majority of people on the internet who spout that stuff are a minority in the real world, just saying that stuff to troll. So far, they seem to be, but I'm a small-town kind of guy, so...

But yeah, when they aren't funny, they're scary, cultish. Funny when you consider how pissed these people get at the very mention of actual cults.

Meh, these people are idiots, and they live in the basement of their parents house. So, I'm not too concern about it.

Meh, these people are idiots, and they live in the basement of their parents house. So, I'm not too concern about it.

A thought occurred to me, though.

If Bush was one of these people, he may well not be INCOMPETENT. On the contrary.

A thought occurred to me, though.

If Bush was one of these people, he may well not be INCOMPETENT. On the contrary.

If Bush was one of these idiots, then wouldn't he have been attacking men of peace? Osama and Saddam were not men of peace. It would make sense if he decided to go after the Dali Llama though.

H2, aren't you overreacting just a bit?

What the hell is that website? I have never seen anything so anal, so pissy and so pedantic in my life. Are they seriously nit picking everything in that book, page by fucking page?


Is this stuff for real? I mean, I always fancied myself knowledgeable about American culture

American culture? This is neither exclusive to, nor a phenomena created by, American culture.

If Bush was one of these idiots, then wouldn't he have been attacking men of peace? Osama and Saddam were not men of peace. It would make sense if he decided to go after the Dali Llama though.

H2, aren't you overreacting just a bit?

If Bush is one of these idiots, the best way to create conflict in Middle East would be to start a war there and support actions by Israel that will create war there.

I am just wondering. My hatred for Bush is unchanged, whether he's stupid or an intelligent psychotic.

What the hell is that website? I have never seen anything so anal, so pissy and so pedantic in my life. Are they seriously nit picking everything in that book, page by fucking page?



American culture? This is neither exclusive to, nor a phenomena created by, American culture.

Well, that's what the website sets out to do. :p

Rapture-mania? In HERE I'd be hard-pressed to find it.

What the hell is that website? I have never seen anything so anal, so pissy and so pedantic in my life. Are they seriously nit picking everything in that book, page by fucking page?

Are you an American by any chance? I ask because for the Evangelical sub-culture (i.e. the one that comprises the loudness power of the Religious Right) these books are treated almost as sacredly as the Bible itself. Even if the books themselves aren't spoken of highly, their "theology" has become the Evangelical de facto.

That's why it's so anal, pissy, and pedantic. Because this kind of theology leads to everything Christianity tends to get a bad name for.

Are you an American by any chance?

Nah, British.


I ask because for the Evangelical sub-culture (i.e. the one that comprises the loudness power of the Religious Right) these books are treated almost as sacredly as the Bible itself. Even if the books themselves aren't spoken of highly, their "theology" has become the Evangelical de facto.

That's why it's so anal, pissy, and pedantic. Because this kind of theology leads to everything Christianity tends to get a bad name for.

Really? Hmm. Well, I've read it (was kind of pushed into it). I didn't think it was that significant, just seemed like some fictional Christian story that kind of sucked.

Yeah. I only hope that the majority of people on the internet who spout that stuff are a minority in the real world, just saying that stuff to troll. So far, they seem to be, but I'm a small-town kind of guy, so...

But yeah, when they aren't funny, they're scary, cultish. Funny when you consider how pissed these people get at the very mention of actual cults.

Every so often I'll go to Jack van Impe's website and watch one of his webcasts. I laugh my ass off for about five minutes until I realize people take him seriously, so much so that he's able to afford a pretty slick website. Then it becomes chilling, and I have to turn it off.

I'll say my piece here I guess. I'm university educated, vote Liberal (in Canada), consider myself fairly rational, believe the Universe is indeed likely 13.5 billion years old, believe that Evolution is a likely phenomenon, etc., but the virtulent anti-religious streak of NS in general is just beyond profound.

I believe in the Rapture and I take my Faith as a Christian importantly - I'm not by far the best, but I believe in what is Written as Truth and that Christ will return someday.

It'd be nice to see people here not attack and assault ALL Christians and Christianity - the people who practice it are flawed, do not judge the entire faith by them - judge it by what Christ taught, if you believe.

And for the record, I equally condemn zealots who persecute non-believers or ridicule them; spirituality is a profoundly personal thing, and all we as Christians SHOULD do is teach the Word, not cram it down people's throats. So please, stop picking on atheists, agnostics, etc.

And stop harassing and belittling Christianity. Please.

And stop harassing and belittling Christianity. Please.

Who here had done that?


No one?


Take your persecution complex elsewhere.

EDIT: As an aside, you must be new here. Thats going to happen a lot here. From me 65% of the time.

And stop harassing and belittling Christianity. Please.

Okay, that's it, let's settle this like penguins.

Those people believe the Rapture and want to CAUSE it.

By creating WAR.

If you are so educated as you claim, it will be a good exercise to assume you're outside their group and think for one moment about how much like fantasy villain characters this makes them seem, and how crazy they seem to everyone else that, surprise, does NOT regard peace as a bad thing.

I meant in general I've observed a lot of anti-religious diatribe esp. against the Christian faith. Even this, ridiculing the idea of rapture, is somewhat offensive. I accept some don't and will not believe, and that's fine, but eh *shrug* what can I say. I just see a lot of it, it seems.

And I'm not new, I've been here like four of five years, my nation has over 10 billion :D

I meant in general I've observed a lot of anti-religious diatribe esp. against the Christian faith. Even this, ridiculing the idea of rapture, is somewhat offensive. I accept some don't and will not believe, and that's fine, but eh *shrug* what can I say. I just see a lot of it, it seems.

And I'm not new, I've been here like four of five years, my nation has over 10 billion :D

Then you should know that anti-religious diatribe is going to happen. And its not going to stop.

Okay, that's it, let's settle this like penguins.

Those people believe the Rapture and want to CAUSE it.

By creating WAR.

If you are so educated as you claim, it will be a good exercise to assume you're outside their group and think for one moment about how much like fantasy villain characters this makes them seem, and how crazy they seem to everyone else that, surprise, does NOT regard peace as a bad thing.


People shouldn't even THINK they can try and cause it as you said. I concur; it's not their will that will bring it about, when it happens. THAT is ludicrous.

I meant in general I've observed a lot of anti-religious diatribe esp. against the Christian faith. Even this, ridiculing the idea of rapture, is somewhat offensive. I accept some don't and will not believe, and that's fine, but eh *shrug* what can I say. I just see a lot of it, it seems.

And I'm not new, I've been here like four of five years, my nation has over 10 billion :D

And when the people with that belief actively try to harm efforts towards peace because of said beliefs? Are you asking for us to give them quarter? It won't happen.

People shouldn't even THINK they can try and cause it as you said. I concur; it's not their will that will bring it about, when it happens. THAT is ludicrous.

Good, so I'm pretty sure even you:

1- Agree with me on the main content of my first post.

2- Agree with me that, no, I'm not persecuting poor-little-Christianity. I'm pointing out that people exist that behave like they worship a god of war.

And when the people with that belief actively try to harm efforts towards peace because of said beliefs? Are you asking for us to give them quarter? It won't happen.

No. Peace should be strived for, always.

Don't get me wrong: I'm fairly opposed to the zealots and fanatical side of Christianity as much as the fanatical ultra-extremists elements in any belief/value system, religious or otherwise.

No. Peace should be strived for, always.

Don't get me wrong: I'm fairly opposed to the zealots and fanatical side of Christianity as much as the fanatical ultra-extremists elements in any belief/value system, religious or otherwise.

Okay, so we agree. See? We settled this like penguins.

I believe in the Rapture and I take my Faith as a Christian importantly - I'm not by far the best, but I believe in what is Written as Truth and that Christ will return someday.

Didn't Jesus say that he'd return in his generation's or the next generation?

No. Peace should be strived for, always.

Don't get me wrong: I'm fairly opposed to the zealots and fanatical side of Christianity as much as the fanatical ultra-extremists elements in any belief/value system, religious or otherwise.

So, Gary Goodyear and evolution. Was that a fair question to ask the Minister of State for Science, or no?

Didn't Jesus say that he'd return in his generation's or the next generation?

:confused:

Where did you hear this? Or maybe he was speaking of his supposed resurrection?

Didn't Jesus say that he'd return in his generation's or the next generation?

Not that I know of!

So, Gary Goodyear and evolution. Was that a fair question to ask the Minister of State for Science, or no?

lol as Peter Milliken said, I agree, it's not really anything to do with his portfolio or government business, so, maybe outside the House, but not in! (And science and Christianity/any faith are not mutually exclusive, at least not to me!)

Okay, so we agree. See? We settled this like penguins.

I wonder what beer penguins like. :D

Nah, British.

That was my guess, but I wanted to make sure.

Really? Hmm. Well, I've read it (was kind of pushed into it). I didn't think it was that significant, just seemed like some fictional Christian story that kind of sucked.

You'd be surprised. The books didn't exactly define the beliefs, they were just the culmination of John Nelson Darby's ideas of Premillenial Dispensationalism. Left Behind has become somewhat of an iconic representation of the whole line of thinking. Honestly though, it's difficult to tell at this point which parts of Left Behind were influenced by Darby, and which parts of PMD end-times theology were influenced by Left Behind. I suspect that it's become a bit of a two-way street at this point.

I'll say my piece here I guess. I'm university educated, vote Liberal (in Canada), consider myself fairly rational, believe the Universe is indeed likely 13.5 billion years old, believe that Evolution is a likely phenomenon, etc., but the virtulent anti-religious streak of NS in general is just beyond profound.

Eh, some more than others. That said, I've only felt that I've really been attacked for my faith by three posters, two of which were later banned for multiple offenses and all of them are generally disliked by the majority of NSG.

In short, I think I get along with most people here without incident.



I take my faith seriously as well, but I don't believe in the rapture. Of course whether or not it ends up being real is of no consequence to me; the Bible indicates that belief in the rapture has no bearing on my salvation.

In fact, I don't believe in a "literal" depiction of Revelations at all (by which I mean most PMD theory which requires cherry picking from the Old Testament interspersed with Revelations). I strongly believe that Revelations was a symbolic message of the times to people suffering in those times, but carries an enduring message that this world is screwed up but that God's in control and that one day everything's going to be all right. Maybe not now, maybe not in this life. But someday.

[quote]It'd be nice to see people here not attack and assault ALL Christians and Christianity - the people who practice it are flawed, do not judge the entire faith by them - judge it by what Christ taught, if you believe.

PMD =/= Christianity. Well, I did that wrong actually.

PMD = Christianity but Christianity =/= PMD.

And for the record, I equally condemn zealots who persecute non-believers or ridicule them; spirituality is a profoundly personal thing, and all we as Christians SHOULD do is teach the Word, not cram it down people's throats. So please, stop picking on atheists, agnostics, etc.

Can I get a Hallelujah?

And stop harassing and belittling Christianity. Please.

Well that wouldn't be fair. After all the days I've spent huddling outside Richard Dawkins's office, throwing poop at his windows and shouting out "Monkey see, monkey do!", the least I could do is let him retaliate. Anything less simply wouldn't be sporting.

*grin*@Geniasis. I don't mind people disagreeing with the Christian or ANY faith as long as it's done respectfully and all that jazz. The: "And stop harassing and belittling Christianity. Please." bit is more aimed at people whomever they may be bashing it just for the sake of bashing it.

Freedom of speech and thought is a beautiful thing when done right.

And hallelujah indeed!

lol as Peter Milliken said, I agree, it's not really anything to do with his portfolio or government business, so, maybe outside the House, but not in! (And science and Christianity/any faith are not mutually exclusive, at least not to me!)

Okay, but it was first asked outside the House. In a Globe and Mail interview, to be precise. Was it a fair question? Can he really be responsible for making decisions about Canadian research dollars if he doesn't believe in evolution? Do you believe him when he calls the reporter, half an hour after the interview, and says "of course I believe in evolution! We're evolving all the time!"

*grin*@Geniasis. I don't mind people disagreeing with the Christian or ANY faith as long as it's done respectfully and all that jazz. Freedom of speech and thought is a beautiful thing when done right.

And hallelujah indeed!

If I hadn't read it myself, I wouldn't have believed it. You realize how few of the Christians who show up here are like this? I think we're going to get along quite well.

Also, I love your name. It's delightfully fancy.

Evolution is only one aspect of the universe that is research and science; disagreeing on that one element doesn't mean he's anti-science, at least that's my read on it. Is it ironic? Sure! But I wouldn't sweat it too much otherwise.

If I hadn't read it myself, I wouldn't have believed it. You realize how few of the Christians who show up here are like this? I think we're going to get along quite well.

Also, I love your name. It's delightfully fancy.

Well how lovely! The name is a name I used in e-wrestling if you can believe it lol (fantasy wrestling: invent a character, invent a storyline, and write stories about said character); mine was a wrestling aristocrat who was Duke of Wessex named Robert Lancaster. :D

Creative? Yes! Believable (i.e. wrestling aristocrat) doubtful lol. :P

Evolution is only one aspect of the universe that is research and science; disagreeing on that one element doesn't mean he's anti-science, at least that's my read on it. Is it ironic? Sure! But I wouldn't sweat it too much otherwise.

I don't think we're going to get along. :(

You realize how few of the Christians who show up here are like this?

You'd be surprised how many people on NSG are actually Christians, most of them don't shout about that fact.

I don't think we're going to get along. :(

Aw don't say that, I'm very courteous and silly with a wide view of nonsense. Let's talk about booze, everyone likes booze!

You'd be surprised how many people on NSG are actually Christians, most of them don't shout about that fact.

*shouts* I'M A CHRISTIAN!

Happy now?:p

Well how lovely! The name is a name I used in e-wrestling if you can believe it lol (fantasy wrestling: invent a character, invent a storyline, and write stories about said character); mine was a wrestling aristocrat who was Duke of Wessex named Robert Lancaster. :D

Creative? Yes! Believable (i.e. wrestling aristocrat) doubtful lol. :P

Believable doesn't make for terribly interesting fantasy, no? Well, I mean it can but... well, y'know.

You'd be surprised how many people on NSG are actually Christians, most of them don't shout about that fact.

Yes well, we don't get very many quite overtly outspoken Christians who aren't raving nutjobs. Is that better?

Meh...Im sorry if thats your personal belief...but when a ghost comes down and wisks away a major population of people...then Ill believe it...

Besides, anyone ever wonder why Satan would follow a plan he already knew would fail? Once Christ figured the Antichrist plan out, dont you think he'd change the plan up a bit?

Always bugged me about the whole bit...

Despite their unconditional support for Israel, I don't trust the fanatical evangelicals. Frankly, I'm worried that someday they'll take over the country and turn America into a theocracy. I do have a plan - get the hell out of the country and move to Israel ASAP.

Despite their unconditional support for Israel, I don't trust the fanatical evangelicals. Frankly, I'm worried that someday they'll take over the country and turn America into a theocracy. I do have a plan - get the hell out of the country and move to Israel ASAP.

Which...isnt a theocracy?


Not to criticize your plan or anything...its just that if youre trying to escape theocracy, it would seem to be a step in the wrong direction...

Europe would probably be your best move at that point, imo...maybe Canada, eh...

Which...isnt a theocracy?


Not to criticize your plan or anything...its just that if youre trying to escape theocracy, it would seem to be a step in the wrong direction...

Europe would probably be your best move at that point, imo...maybe Canada, eh...

This reminds me of the guy who was going to move to Korea because he didn't like his tax dollars supporting Obama's "socialized medicine".

This reminds me of the guy who was going to move to Korea because he didn't like his tax dollars supporting Obama's "socialized medicine".

Source or it didn't happen and I'll be very sad at you for depriving me of an opportunity to laugh my ass off! :D

Source or it didn't happen and I'll be very sad at you for depriving me of an opportunity to laugh my ass off! :D

Check threads from a few weeks ago, by "greed and death".

Check threads from a few weeks ago, by "greed and death".

Ah, that was a joke post, I assume. Meh. :p

This reminds me of the guy who was going to move to Korea because he didn't like his tax dollars supporting Obama's "socialized medicine".

I did have the thought that he may have been joking....but without a "lol" or a Smiley its hard to tell, lol...

Which...isnt a theocracy?
While Israel exists only because it's the Promised Land(tm), I've gotten the impression it's a mix of secular and extremists the same way USA is. OTOH in case of Israel, the extremists do get free PR from the missile strikes while in USA it's only the fear of God - and losing Israel to infidels - that fuels the Christian movement. :tongue:

In anycase, people should remember that Israel arabs do constitute a healthy portion of the population - 1 in 6 Israelis is an arab (source: Wiki) - and they do co-exist together more or less peacefully (sans the Palestinian issue and perhaps the lack of appreciation for the Bedouin culture)...For example, in some cooking show I saw there was an arab cook in a kosher restaurant in Israel and another fishing industrialist having restaurant chain specifically catering as non-kosher food as possible. ;)


In case anyone has conflicting information, feel free to correct me. :)




Well, getting back to topic of Rapture:
Rapture Ready (http://www.raptureready.com/) and, more specifically, its forums (http://www.rr-bb.com/index.php) are a good source of fundie comedy.

Ah, that was a joke post, I assume. Meh. :p

Nope, he was seriously, or claims to be.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=584750

Even got into a fairly fiesty bet with Jocabia over it.

Well, getting back to topic of Rapture:
Rapture Ready (http://www.raptureready.com/) and, more specifically, its forums (http://www.rr-bb.com/index.php) are a good source of fundie comedy.

Lmfao!

http://www.raptureready.com/wallpaper/vwp7b.jpg


Its like they think Aslan is going to show up or something!

Meh, these people are idiots, and they live in the basement of their parents house. So, I'm not too concern about it.

It's what they do in their parents' basements that should concern you! :eek:

Lmfao!

http://www.raptureready.com/wallpaper/vwp7b.jpg


Its like they think Aslan is going to show up or something!

They...they photoshopped in little nail holes...on the lion.

Its like Manimal had his own religion.

I liked Manimal.

If there were such a thing as an Antichrist and all of those profecies were true then it would be blasphemy to fight it so I would do my damnedest to find out who that person is and be his partner. I'd probably end up damned to eternal torment for doing so but I would have a hell of a time until then and I would be comforted knowing that everyone who fought against my colleague would be right there with me except they would have wasted their last days in a futile struggle whilst committing heresy. If there is a whole end of days thing, at least have some fun because you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

I'll say my piece here I guess. I'm university educated, vote Liberal (in Canada), consider myself fairly rational, believe the Universe is indeed likely 13.5 billion years old, believe that Evolution is a likely phenomenon, etc., but the virtulent anti-religious streak of NS in general is just beyond profound.

That's because virtually nothing good comes from religion.

I believe in the Rapture and I take my Faith as a Christian importantly - I'm not by far the best, but I believe in what is Written as Truth and that Christ will return someday.

Too late -- he already reincarnated multiple times by now.

It'd be nice to see people here not attack and assault ALL Christians and Christianity - the people who practice it are flawed, do not judge the entire faith by them - judge it by what Christ taught, if you believe.

It'd be nice if priests stopped declaring all magic evil and stopped claiming that aids is spread through condoms and stopped declaring that virtuous atheists will burn for all eternity.

And for the record, I equally condemn zealots who persecute non-believers or ridicule them; spirituality is a profoundly personal thing, and all we as Christians SHOULD do is teach the Word, not cram it down people's throats. So please, stop picking on atheists, agnostics, etc.

And stop harassing and belittling Christianity. Please.

Unfortunately, there are far too many Fred Phelpses who'd declare that very statement heretical.

This is the same group of people who support Israel completely because the world can't end unless Israel exists. So if the Arabs would wipe them out then the world would just continue.Ayup, wrapped up in one tight, glossy package, really.
:(

I liked Manimal.
I'd always hoped that
Manimal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iQ-mzYRl3s
Automan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggagsyeKP8k
and
The Phoenix http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SASkqWyn40
could all get together and fight crime/religion as a unit.
Some kind of tryst, anyway.

Want some epic lulz?

Behold... THE GAME!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Left_Behind_-_Eternal_Forces_Coverart.png

Left Behind: Eternal Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind:_Eternal_Forces)

It even offended Hack Thompson to the point he Left Behind the publisher. Now what does that say?

Want some epic lulz?

Behold... THE GAME!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Left_Behind_-_Eternal_Forces_Coverart.png

Left Behind: Eternal Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind:_Eternal_Forces)

It even offended Hack Thompson to the point he Left Behind the publisher. Now what does that say?Wasn't that on a Simpsons episode?

The Anti-Christ is the Pope. Catholics don't worship God or Jesus they worship him; many of them take his word for the word of the supreme being, whats that say about him?

there ain't no "anti" anything. everything has its own gift and purpose.

which is not to say there arn't some i'd be happier without.
conflict in any form being one of these.

Which...isnt a theocracy?


Not to criticize your plan or anything...its just that if youre trying to escape theocracy, it would seem to be a step in the wrong direction...

Europe would probably be your best move at that point, imo...maybe Canada, eh...

1. Israel isn't a true theocracy. They at least have democracy, freedom of speech, and most important of all, freedom of religion.
2. If Israel is a theocracy, it's a Jewish theocracy. At least its my religion being promoted by the state. I could even see Islam being tolerated under a Jewish theocracy (it violates none of the seven Noachide laws).
3. Most important of all, Israel is the one country I know that will never persecute Jews.

saul of tarsus was the anti-christ before there even was a pope. and protestant christerism, the more fanatical forms of it anyway, seems to be based more on his pretentions then christ's channeling of big friendly and invisible.

all of that's human speculation anyway. which it begins and ends with.

the real rapture is in the spirit and the mind, and happened each time with the declairations first of mahammid and then of the bab and baha'u'llah.

which is not to say i buy into the need for anything to be infallable, nor for anything infallable ever to have walked the face of this planet in tangable form or any other or ever will, on two legs or otherwise.

but i do have no argument against the possibility of humans, like the sentient life forms of other worlds, having had from among them, choosen one or two every thousand years, give or take a few hundred, by big friendly and invissible, to channel itself.

The Anti-Christ is the Pope. Catholics don't worship God or Jesus they worship him; many of them take his word for the word of the supreme being,
He is? They don't? They do?

whats that say about him?
Based on what you say about him.....nothing much.

I am the anti-christ! :eek:

Want some epic lulz?

Behold... THE GAME!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Left_Behind_-_Eternal_Forces_Coverart.png

Left Behind: Eternal Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind:_Eternal_Forces)

It even offended Hack Thompson to the point he Left Behind the publisher. Now what does that say?

On the bright side it seems that by 2006 the developer of that video game had a net loss of $31 mil.

On the bright side it seems that by 2006 the developer of that video game had a net loss of $31 mil.

LOL.

I read most of the series, I don't know why. I'm neither religious nor worried about "The Rapture".

Some form of mind control methinks.

EDIT: That game sounds AWESOME. Banish those evil Rock Musicians!

LOL.

I read most of the series, I don't know why. I'm neither religious nor worried about "The Rapture".

Some form of mind control methinks.

EDIT: That game sounds AWESOME. Banish those evil Rock Musicians!

Religious or not, most people enjoy a bit of apocalyptic fiction now and again. But still, I must question your taste!

EDIT: From a quick reading of the wiki articles, it seems the anti-christ, at the end of his reign, bows before Jesus and asks forgiveness. Jesus then throws him into Hell. So much for forgiveness.

there ain't no "anti" anything. everything has its own gift and purpose.

which is not to say there arn't some i'd be happier without.
conflict in any form being one of these.
Without conflict life wouldn't have evolved beyond the earliest prokaryotes and you wouldn't exist. While the thought of never having to read your inane, naïve, misspelled parochialisms is appealing it would mean that I wouldn't exist either and that most certainly is not.

Religious or not, most people enjoy a bit of apocalyptic fiction now and again. But still, I must question your taste!

EDIT: From a quick reading of the wiki articles, it seems the anti-christ, at the end of his reign, bows before Jesus and asks forgiveness. Jesus then throws him into Hell. So much for forgiveness.

From what I know of the authors, they would have cast it not as a genuine repentance, but an attempt to be a sort of Karma Houdini.

From what I know of the authors, they would have cast it not as a genuine repentance, but an attempt to be a sort of Karma Houdini.

I need to make a thread on who here reads TvTropes...

And maybe have people listing the tropes of the person who posted before them? :D

there ain't no "anti" anything. everything has its own gift and purpose. Nicely put. *bows*

Without conflict life wouldn't have evolved beyond the earliest prokaryotes and you wouldn't exist. While the thought of never having to read your inane, naïve, misspelled parochialisms is appealing it would mean that I wouldn't exist either and that most certainly is not.

i'm not certain what universe you live in, but the one surrounding me does not require the existence of either of us. nor do i find the argument advanced above, while tediously familiar, at all compelling.

nor do i confuse my existence with that of the physical form i occupy.

I used to work with a woman who read the 'Left Behind' series and was an evangelical Christian. To her credit, she did treat the stories as fiction, and wasn't expecting a literal rapture to occur. It's a subset of a religious subculture who do, but yeah, they are kinda scary.

1. Israel isn't a true theocracy. They at least have democracy, freedom of speech, and most important of all, freedom of religion.


Not if the Kahanists have their way.


I could even see Islam being tolerated under a Jewish theocracy (it violates none of the seven Noachide laws).


A Jewish theocracy? Maybe. A Jewish Israeli theocracy? Given the current trends, not to mention widespread prejudice? I find that unlikely.


3. Most important of all, Israel is the one country I know that will never persecute Jews.

Unless you disagree with the radicals and are in a position of power. Then they just shoot you, even if you are Jewish.

I'll say my piece here I guess. I'm university educated, vote Liberal (in Canada), consider myself fairly rational, believe the Universe is indeed likely 13.5 billion years old, believe that Evolution is a likely phenomenon, etc., but the virtulent anti-religious streak of NS in general is just beyond profound.

I believe in the Rapture and I take my Faith as a Christian importantly - I'm not by far the best, but I believe in what is Written as Truth and that Christ will return someday.

It'd be nice to see people here not attack and assault ALL Christians and Christianity - the people who practice it are flawed, do not judge the entire faith by them - judge it by what Christ taught, if you believe.

And for the record, I equally condemn zealots who persecute non-believers or ridicule them; spirituality is a profoundly personal thing, and all we as Christians SHOULD do is teach the Word, not cram it down people's throats. So please, stop picking on atheists, agnostics, etc.

And stop harassing and belittling Christianity. Please.

As of your post, nobody had. But I'll tell you what. When reasonable people like you stand up to the fanatics en masse and tell them they're officially off their collective rocker, I'll be glad to come to the defense to Christianity more often and more vigorously than I already do. If you can convince your sect's whackjobs to leave everyone else alone, I'll do my best to return the favor.

And that's just it. It never happens. So until you're actually attacked here just for being a Christian (as opposed to those attacking the actions of Christians who seek to impose their mob morality on other people -- a perfectly legitimate attack), I'd leave the "can't we all get along" speech in the bag.

If we don't believe, then how are we supposed to judge anyone based on what Christ taught? In addition, I've found most of NSG to be pretty good about leveling their assaults at specific actions. Specific dealings, like the Mormon Church's violation of IRS statutes be contributing in-kind to Prop 8 in California WAY over the dollar-value limit, yeah, those get a good airing out and poked and prodded here. But I've NEVER seen anyone other than a troll or a flame-lapper go after someone personally just for being a Christian.

I read most of the series, I don't know why.
You have more strength than I do. I tried to read it but couldn't get through more than a page and a half.

i'm not certain what universe you live in, but the one surrounding me does not require the existence of either of us. nor do i find the argument advanced above, while tediously familiar, at all compelling.

nor do i confuse my existence with that of the physical form i occupy.
Fucking lol. I mean that with all sincerity. You, sir-ess, are the funniest fucking joke I have read today.

Not if the Kahanists have their way.

The Kahanists are a bunch of right-wing lunatics, currently banned from Israeli politics. They're basically the Israeli equivalent of white supremacists in America.

They are also, in my opinion, a bunch of heretics who deserve to die for desecrating His name.

I think it's interesting that Premillennial Dispensationalism, which wasn't even an idea 150 years ago and wasn't even heard of 100 years ago is now the (false-)gospel standard for the American 'evangelical'

People think I'm worse than Pontus Pilate as a postmillennialist and as anti-rapture (at least in the common definition). This idea wasn't even contrived before the 1800s, but now that act as though it's one of the fundamentals of Christianity.

People think I'm worse than Pontus Pilate as a postmillennialist and as anti-rapture (at least in the common definition). This idea wasn't even contrived before the 1800s, but now that act as though it's one of the fundamentals of Christianity.

Fundamentalism is always a modern invention. I guess people just get impatient and rather than rely on the hard work and centuries of religious study by the greatest theological minds they latch on to the people proclaiming immediate rewards and a return to the "pure faith" that more often than not includes ideas abhorrent to the original Christians. Just look at the proliferation of garbage like the prosperity gospel and televangelist faith healers that put more money in to their private jets than helping others.

That's not to say all religious reform is faulty, just that fundamentalism tends to reflect the worst excesses of any belief system.

I think it's interesting that Postmillennial Dispensationalism, which wasn't even an idea 150 years ago and wasn't even heard of 100 years ago is now the (false-)gospel standard for the American 'evangelical'

People think I'm worse than Pontus Pilate as a postmillennialist and as anti-rapture (at least in the common definition). This idea wasn't even contrived before the 1800s, but now that act as though it's one of the fundamentals of Christianity.

Minor quibble: the fundie-standard is premillenial dispensationalism. Postmillenial is a slightly heretical order of events.

If Bush is one of these idiots, the best way to create conflict in Middle East would be to start a war there and support actions by Israel that will create war there.

I am just wondering. My hatred for Bush is unchanged, whether he's stupid or an intelligent psychotic.

I find hating intelligent persons more difficult. If I met Bush, and he talked with me privately as an articulate man pretending to be an idiot to start wars, I would probably like him more.

An evil genius is cool, but a sorry-ass Evangelical-Reagan-lover is boring.

You have more strength than I do. I tried to read it but couldn't get through more than a page and a half.

Eh, I was young (16) and bored at my grandparents for a week, so I read the first one since they had it laying around, and I read a couple more after that.

Stupid kid. :p

Minor quibble: the fundie-standard is premillenial dispensationalism.

Indeed it is.

Postmillenial is a slightly heretical order of events.

I must disagree. I think it's the best of the options.

Premillennial Dispensationalism - altogether heresy
Historic Premillennialism - questionable at best in my opinion
Amillennialism - no problem, but find posmill better
Postmillennialism - most correct in my opinion

I must disagree. I think it's the best of the options.

Perhaps. I find them all to be shaky at best, but from a mainstream evangelical perspective, it would be Pre-MD.

Of course the millennium isn't the tribulation. It's the 1000 years afterward. From their theology, there really wouldn't seem to be any need for a rapture after that kingdom is established.

Perhaps. I find them all to be shaky at best, but from a mainstream evangelical perspective, it would be Pre-MD.

Of course the millennium isn't the tribulation. It's the 1000 years afterward. From their theology, there really wouldn't seem to be any need for a rapture after that kingdom is established.

Well, I guess it depends on how we define the rapture, doesn't it?

I don't think most mainstream evangelicals have thought very clearly about it (or at all). I think the majority of people who hope for a Left Behind-style rapture are hoping that God's too kind to let any tribulation happen to them, or at least any "serious" tribulation. But God allowed the crucifixion of Christians and allowed them to be thrown to the lions. His Prophets were persecuted and if we believe tradition, all the Apostles save John died by the sword (metaphorically, of course). And what about the Christians in North Korea?

And what do we mean by "tribulation"? Everyone experiences tribulation of some sort, and if we're going to say that there's tribulation and Tribulation, what basis do we have to say that there is Tribulation? None, really, except an insistence that Revelation must be read as future. I find that position questionable. I prefer a historical interpretation: that Revelation is an explanation of the history of the Church, from the Fall to Second Coming. Not that passage A in Revelation corresponds to event B in history, but that the events in Revelation are speaking to the life of the Church.

It's okay if you want to believe in God, or religion or whatever (I do) but the Rapture has no basis in any religious book around.

Rapturists are just a death cult waiting to happen.

Pre-millennial dispensationalism is by no means a consensus. Even the "evangelical" movement is incredibly fractured the closer you look at it.

There are charismatic Pentecostal sorts, including "Oneness" Pentecostals that reject the trinity, there are anti-charismatic Baptists of all stripes---deterministic Calvinists, "Free Will" Baptists, Landmarkists, etc., etc. There are Christian Restorationists, Dominionists, Wesleyans, Pietists, Transformationalists, etc. There are post-evangelicals, Neo-Calvinists, Messianic Jews, emerging church-ists, non-denominational evangelical "community churches." Often, individual churches are administered entirely locally (in no convention or association) and may have a theology unto themselves.

With literally tens of thousands of Protestant denominations in America, it's hard to form any sort of generalization. Even the most conservative, "fundamentalist" brands of Christianity are in fervent disagreement on any number of issues.

Also, the Jews have a similar silly belief to the premillennial dispensationalists---tikkun olam. By doing good deeds, you can help usher in the Messianic Era.

Well, I guess it depends on how we define the rapture, doesn't it?

Of course. For the purposes of this conversation, I'm using the terms as defined by LaHaye, Jenkins, and Hal Lindsey.

From the rest of your post, I lean much closer in agreement with you than I do with them.

I don't think most mainstream evangelicals have thought very clearly about it (or at all). I think the majority of people who hope for a Left Behind-style rapture are hoping that God's too kind to let any tribulation happen to them, or at least any "serious" tribulation. But God allowed the crucifixion of Christians and allowed them to be thrown to the lions. His Prophets were persecuted and if we believe tradition, all the Apostles save John died by the sword (metaphorically, of course). And what about the Christians in North Korea?

And what do we mean by "tribulation"? Everyone experiences tribulation of some sort, and if we're going to say that there's tribulation and Tribulation, what basis do we have to say that there is Tribulation? None, really, except an insistence that Revelation must be read as future. I find that position questionable. I prefer a historical interpretation: that Revelation is an explanation of the history of the Church, from the Fall to Second Coming. Not that passage A in Revelation corresponds to event B in history, but that the events in Revelation are speaking to the life of the Church.

I've always seen it as a general message of hope. A type of apocalyptic fiction whose purpose isn't to predict the future but to reassure the suffering and the downtrodden that while life does indeed suck, there's someone in control and at the end of the day wrongs will be set right and everyone will get what they deserve. Less antichrist, more "it's going to be all right".

Not that that's incompatible with your interpretation. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they were both at work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-v0VHX2Ghc

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-v0VHX2Ghc

lol

This needs to be done to EVERYONE who's read that damn series. It's the only way they'll learn.

Besides, it'll be REALLY funny. :D

Pre-millennial dispensationalism is by no means a consensus. Even the "evangelical" movement is incredibly fractured the closer you look at it.

There are charismatic Pentecostal sorts, including "Oneness" Pentecostals that reject the trinity, there are anti-charismatic Baptists of all stripes---deterministic Calvinists, "Free Will" Baptists, Landmarkists, etc., etc. There are Christian Restorationists, Dominionists, Wesleyans, Pietists, Transformationalists, etc. There are post-evangelicals, Neo-Calvinists, Messianic Jews, emerging church-ists, non-denominational evangelical "community churches." Often, individual churches are administered entirely locally (in no convention or association) and may have a theology unto themselves.

With literally tens of thousands of Protestant denominations in America, it's hard to form any sort of generalization. Even the most conservative, "fundamentalist" brands of Christianity are in fervent disagreement on any number of issues.

But I think we can say without much fear of error, that there is a vast theological consensus among the people sitting in the pews, regardless of what the elders, pastors, theologians, ministers or whoever in the denominations may be saying.

And even if the people in the pews don't agree with an idea, that doesn't mean their thinking hasn't been influenced by that idea. I know someone who rejects pre-mill dispensationalism, but her view of the "end-times" and the "rapture" are pretty similar. Which is not to say that her ideas are necessarily wrong, just that they're closer to pre-mill dispensationalist views than to the other views, even though she rejects pre-mill dispensationalism.