NationStates Jolt Archive


Motorcycle Gang Membership - Should it be Illegal?

Saint Jade IV
23-03-2009, 02:46
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/article.aspx?id=314577

Recently there has been a spate of violent attacks perpetrated in Sydney by bikie gangs.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/murder-bashings-and-bullets-as-rival-gangs-clash-20090322-95mf.html

So in a somewhat reactionary measure, the NSW opposition is calling for membership of bikie gangs to be made illegal. While I can understand that bikie gangs committing violent acts is a problem, I'm not sure that making membership in any way illegal will reduce the problems. Furthermore, I'm not sure that it's the correct way to go about this. I'm sure that there are many law abiding citizens in these gangs, and don't see that forcibly disbanding them will help matters in any way. It may even make relations between bikies and police even worse.

What does NSG think?
greed and death
23-03-2009, 02:48
What the hell is a Bikie ?!?!?!?!
Katganistan
23-03-2009, 02:49
What are bikies?
SaintB
23-03-2009, 02:49
Bikie? I thought it was a typo at first but now... whats a bikie gang?
Pure Metal
23-03-2009, 02:50
aren't bikies what kiddies peddle around in? with stabilisers?

i loved my trikie when i were a lad
greed and death
23-03-2009, 02:50
I think its a kids toy. Maybe Australian preschoolers form gangs now.
Katganistan
23-03-2009, 02:59
Wait, are we talking about motorcycle gangs?

Motorcycle clubs should not be illegal. Gang activity should.
greed and death
23-03-2009, 03:00
Wait, are we talking about motorcycle gangs?

I was thinking Tricycle gangs myself.
SaintB
23-03-2009, 03:00
Wait, are we talking about motorcycle gangs?

Thats what I'm hoping my Saintly counterpart will clarify.
Saint Jade IV
23-03-2009, 03:09
Sorry about the confusion. Kat, you are correct, I forgot this is an international forum. Bikie gangs are an Australian slang term for motorcycle gangs or clubs.
greed and death
23-03-2009, 03:10
I say give him a yellow card for using Australian slang. I am sure the Brits will back me up on this.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
23-03-2009, 03:13
I was thinking Tricycle gangs myself.
You laugh, but some of those kids can be fucking savages. I've seen too many friends sent to the hospital covered in vaguely annoying wounds after being jumped by a gang of toddlers armed with safety scissors.
BAN CHILDREN NOW!
SaintB
23-03-2009, 03:16
You laugh, but some of those kids can be fucking savages. I've seen too many friends sent to the hospital covered in vaguely annoying wounds after being jumped by a gang of toddlers armed with safety scissors.
BAN CHILDREN NOW!

Children are the leading cause of adults!


To the OP: I think that perhaps the Australian government should specifically target the gangs that are causing trouble. Much like in the US I bet its only a select few gangs out of many.
Pope Lando II
23-03-2009, 03:22
Freedom of association and assembly are kind of important. There are limits, of course, but for the most part, we already have the tools we need to fight gangs without outlawing organizations. The Aussies probably do too.
Dododecapod
23-03-2009, 03:25
Jeeze, what a stupid idea. You "disband" the Bike Clubs - so, the many, law abiding and peaceful motorcycle enthusiasts now have nowhere to get together with their buddies, while the OUTLAW gangs sit around and laugh at the stupidity of the pollies.
SaintB
23-03-2009, 03:26
Freedom of association and assembly are kind of important. There are limits, of course, but for the most part, we already have the tools we need to fight gangs without outlawing organizations. The Aussies probably do too.

Before someone says it seriously, I will jokingly quip: "But the Australian Government banned firearms!"
Ashmoria
23-03-2009, 03:53
how do you decide what who is a member or what constitutes a club/gang?

if they dont issue membership cards is it OK to hang out together?
Pope Lando II
23-03-2009, 03:59
how do you decide what who is a member or what constitutes a club/gang?

if they dont issue membership cards is it OK to hang out together?

Dunno about how things are done down in Dingoland, but in some states here, there's a commission that meets and decides who constitute criminal gangs and who don't. It's potentially arbitrary but seems to work.
Pirated Corsairs
23-03-2009, 04:01
Wait, are we talking about motorcycle gangs?

Motorcycle clubs should not be illegal. Gang activity should.

This.
Ashmoria
23-03-2009, 04:01
Dunno about how things are done down in Dingoland, but in some states here, there's a commission that meets and decides who constitute criminal gangs and who don't. It's potentially arbitrary but seems to work.
how do you decide if a particular person is a member?
SaintB
23-03-2009, 04:02
how do you decide if a particular person is a member?

Membership cards?
The government should enact legislation that requires all gangs to hand out membership cards that gang members must keep upon thier person at all times.
Pope Lando II
23-03-2009, 04:05
how do you decide if a particular person is a member?

Present a judge with your evidence, using police gang investigators' testimony if necessary. Expensive and time-consuming, but popular. Once a judge says you're a gang member, you're a gang member, unless you appeal successfully.
Ashmoria
23-03-2009, 04:07
Present a judge with your evidence, using police gang investigators' testimony if necessary. Expensive and time-consuming, but popular. Once a judge says you're a gang member, you're a gang member, unless you appeal successfully.
wouldnt it be more useful to spend all this effort on people who are committing crimes no matter who else they associate with?

a criminal gang is a criminal gang no matter what they use for transportation.
Pope Lando II
23-03-2009, 04:15
wouldnt it be more useful to spend all this effort on people who are committing crimes no matter who else they associate with?

a criminal gang is a criminal gang no matter what they use for transportation.

It would, except that once you label someone a gang member, you can demolish their rights. You can impose all sorts of unreasonable injunctions, so that they leave town, and lock them up for contempt of court if they stay and don't comply. Otherwise, you might not catch them doing anything. Make it illegal for them to talk to other gang members, or to carry cell phones, or to wear blue, or any number of ordinarily-legal things, and you own them.
Ashmoria
23-03-2009, 04:20
It would, except that once you label someone a gang member, you can demolish their rights. You can impose all sorts of unreasonable injunctions, so that they leave town, and lock them up for contempt of court if they stay and don't comply. Otherwise, you might not catch them doing anything. Make it illegal for them to talk to other gang members, or to carry cell phones, or to wear blue, or any number of ordinarily-legal things, and you own them.
do you like that idea?
Saint Jade IV
23-03-2009, 04:28
Jeeze, what a stupid idea. You "disband" the Bike Clubs - so, the many, law abiding and peaceful motorcycle enthusiasts now have nowhere to get together with their buddies, while the OUTLAW gangs sit around and laugh at the stupidity of the pollies.

I tend to agree with this. I recognise that groups like the Hell's Angels, Comancheros, Odin's Warriors and Rebels and such do engage in criminal enterprises. But, we already have laws against things like drug importation, rape, prostitution, murder, and the like. I don't see why we also need a law saying that you can't ride on a motorbike with other people.

I feel that this could be a very slippery slope, particularly with the issues that we have with hooligans in sport. Will they ban sporting associations who have hooligans in them too?
Pope Lando II
23-03-2009, 04:37
do you like that idea?

Not really. Even when the target is an actual violent felon, it usually just forces them to move a town over. I don't like paying for it, especially if it doesn't get results. On the other hand, the prison population is skyrocketing, and something has to be done. Some experts stand by the practice, and it might be tweaked a bit and improved, I guess.
Vetalia
23-03-2009, 04:43
Making gangs illegal has clearly been effective so far...
Thethunderdome
23-03-2009, 04:49
Bike gangs in Australia? Sounds like a job for Mel Gibson
Pope Lando II
23-03-2009, 04:55
Bike gangs in Australia? Sounds like a job for Mel Gibson

You didn't create your nation specifically to post in this thread, did you? :p
Modern Outlaws
23-03-2009, 05:04
I do a ton of car club stuff, meet ups, unofficial car shows, etc. We always get hassled by the cops because anytime more than one person who is into cars gets together, you are obviously gonna street race. This is the same thing. If I'm gonna beat your ass, I'm gonna do it wearing colors or not. You can't outlaw something you cant track or enforce.
Risottia
23-03-2009, 20:59
Recently there has been a spate of violent attacks perpetrated in Sydney by bikie gangs.
So in a somewhat reactionary measure, the NSW opposition is calling for membership of bikie gangs to be made illegal.
...
What does NSG think?

Well, it reminds closely of the italian laws about associating with mafiosi even without being a member of the mafia (concorso esterno in associazione mafiosa).

But I'd guess that motorbike gangs are quite different from a mafia-like organisation, both in purpose and in the threat they pose.

My guess is that the NSW opposition is just making some propaganda.
Jhahanam with a Goatee
23-03-2009, 21:11
In the US, there's a descriptive term, "One Percenter".

Apparently, it comes from a report once issued stating that "Only 1% of motorcycle riders are associated with unlawful activity" or words to that effect. It was meant to indicate that the vast majority of riders (or, "bikies" as some places call them, apparently?) are peacable folks.

So, what do several groups do? Print up patches that say "1%", and put them on their club colors. Essentially indicating "Yes, we are that fraction that will stab you in the liver with a rusty screwdriver and then gang rape the medics that show up to help you."

I ride a Yamaha Raider, so people know I'm no tough guy. Hell, if I had the money, I'd get a BMW motorcycle with heated grips and ABS breaks.

99%er, motherfuckers! What!
Saint Jade IV
23-03-2009, 23:35
My issue is that making these groups illegal will turn many innocent enthusiasts into criminals. People are not going to stop gathering just because suddenly it's now against the law, especially if formerly there have been no problems.

Furthermore, these groups already in some cases break the law. Making a new law for them to break is not going to stop them breaking the old ones. Prosecuting them for the laws they already break is the answer as far as I am concerned. It will simply compound the problem as many more people may be drawn to the lifestyle, and those already a part of it, but not currently engaging in criminal activity will perhaps become more likely to engage in riskier behaviours as a result.
1010102
23-03-2009, 23:41
My issue is that making these groups illegal will turn many innocent enthusiasts into criminals. People are not going to stop gathering just because suddenly it's now against the law, especially if formerly there have been no problems.

Of course when this logic is applied to gun control, it doesn't make sense.

Oh wait...
Errinundera
24-03-2009, 00:48
Used to be a popular sticker in Oz, "I'm a motorcyclist, not a bikie."

(BTW, using diminutive forms of nouns is a very Australian linguistic habit.)
Saint Jade IV
24-03-2009, 01:16
Of course when this logic is applied to gun control, it doesn't make sense.

Oh wait...

This debate is not about gun control. It's about freedom of association and the fact that people will be prevented from riding a form of transport together or wearing certain kinds of clothing because of a ridiculous knee jerk reaction to events that could be dealt with using currently available laws. Not because some people want their right to carry a weapon specifically designed to kill people to supercede the rights of others to feel safe.
Katganistan
24-03-2009, 01:25
I say give him a yellow card for using Australian slang. I am sure the Brits will back me up on this.
Well, I won't. And I suspect Ard won't either.
Knights of Liberty
24-03-2009, 01:26
Well, I won't. And I suspect Ard won't either.

I think it was a joke.:p
Katganistan
24-03-2009, 01:27
how do you decide if a particular person is a member?
I suspect if they are all in one place together, wearing "colors" and matching jackets, and caught committing crimes, that would be sufficient.
Jhahanam with a Goatee
24-03-2009, 01:33
Well, I won't. And I suspect Ard won't either.

You just cut and pasted that response from that thing I asked you to do last night.
Katganistan
24-03-2009, 01:34
You just cut and pasted that response from that thing I asked you to do last night.
Nah, cos THAT response was unprintable as per forum rules. ;)
Saint Jade IV
24-03-2009, 01:47
Well, I won't. And I suspect Ard won't either.

Oh was that directed at me? Coz I'm not a HIM. So I disregarded it. lol.

Thanks for being nice Kat.
Blouman Empire
24-03-2009, 01:55
Well, it reminds closely of the italian laws about associating with mafiosi even without being a member of the mafia (concorso esterno in associazione mafiosa).

But I'd guess that motorbike gangs are quite different from a mafia-like organisation, both in purpose and in the threat they pose.

I wouldn't say it is entirely, there are some elements of the bikie gangs that do indeed deal with many of the activities that the Mafia does engage in. In saying that there are bikie gangs that don't and large amounts of members that don't break the law.

I am against these proposals and in my state the current state government is trying to push similar laws. Knowig a few bikies belonging to various gangs, some are law abiding hard working members who simply enjoy riding their bikes in their colours with other people and going for a drink afterwards, others are crooks who really should be locked up but not because they are members of the bikie gang but because they have engaged in criminal activity.

To lock someone up simply because they are members of an organisation is a violation of the freedom of association, (not uncommon by the ALP) and shouldn't be allowed. By all means lock up those that do break laws such as drug dealing, murder, rape, kidnapping etc.

I do think something needs to be done about it but not this as it simply won't work.

I wonder what will happen to Angel security (a security firm owned by the Hell's Angels) should these laws go ahead.
Errinundera
24-03-2009, 03:05
..I am against these proposals and in my state the current state government is trying to push similar laws...

The Victorian Premier (ALP, if I recall) has said publicly that Victoria will not be introducing such laws as the matter could be dealt with under existing laws that apply to everyone.

...To lock someone up simply because they are members of an organisation is a violation of the freedom of association, (not uncommon by the ALP) and shouldn't be allowed...

I recall that the former (yay!) Federal Liberal Party (equivalent to the Republicans, American readers) government passed just those sorts of laws to deal with terrorism. I think you're letting your hatred of the ALP get in the way of your judgement.

Saturday's election result was good, yes?
Non Aligned States
24-03-2009, 03:19
Of course when this logic is applied to gun control, it doesn't make sense.

Oh wait...

The only difference being one's about association, the other being the right to own specific weaponry.
Pure Metal
24-03-2009, 03:22
Sorry about the confusion. Kat, you are correct, I forgot this is an international forum. Bikie gangs are an Australian slang term for motorcycle gangs or clubs.

but "bikie" sounds so cute! :tongue:

This.
yes.
Errinundera
24-03-2009, 03:23
but "bikie" sounds so cute! :tongue:


yes.

Doesn't have cute conotations for Australians at all.
Domici
24-03-2009, 03:48
Wait, are we talking about motorcycle gangs?

Motorcycle clubs should not be illegal. Gang activity should.

Yes. Encourage biker gangs. Gun smugglers, drug dealers, extortionists, and pimps are so much easier to catch when they all wear a distinctive uniform and travel in vehicles that make them especially subject to fatal crashes.
Domici
24-03-2009, 03:53
Well, it reminds closely of the italian laws about associating with mafiosi even without being a member of the mafia (concorso esterno in associazione mafiosa).

But I'd guess that motorbike gangs are quite different from a mafia-like organisation, both in purpose and in the threat they pose.

My guess is that the NSW opposition is just making some propaganda.

No. They're not terribly different, except in that the motivation tends to be lifestyle first, profit second. But what they actually do is pretty much the same.

Run rackets. Trade illegal goods. Prostitution rings. Fight for territory.

William Queen wrote a great book about his infiltration of the Mongols. He said that he had to fill out an application that listed all his previous jobs, friends, family, penis size and a whole lot of other stuff. And for all the crystal meth they liked to take, they had enough people who were good enough at keeping good records that they actually knew where their money was going.
Saint Jade IV
24-03-2009, 03:58
Doesn't have cute conotations for Australians at all.

I was just going to say that.
Blouman Empire
24-03-2009, 05:17
The Victorian Premier (ALP, if I recall) has said publicly that Victoria will not be introducing such laws as the matter could be dealt with under existing laws that apply to everyone.

Fair enough, I was talking about Premier Mike Rann Premier of SA (ALP, if I recall).

I recall that the former (yay!) Federal Liberal Party (equivalent to the Republicans, American readers) government passed just those sorts of laws to deal with terrorism. I think you're letting your hatred of the ALP get in the way of your judgement.

And I believe that it was the former Federal Liberal Party which allowed people to right to join or not join student unions. And no not all members of the Liberal Part would be similar to all members of the GOP as you very well know the GOP s comprised of a large amount of people from different political beliefs as for the liberal party it too has different beliefs don't forget the big "L" and little "l" factions. Of course just because a liberal government passes a law or states policy doesn't mean I'm going to agree with it.

Saturday's election result was good, yes?

Doesn't bother me I'm not a Queenslander nor do I live there.
SaintB
24-03-2009, 05:23
Apparently I don't have my sense of humor anymore. Wonderful.