NationStates Jolt Archive

How significant should heritage and ethnic background be? I was discussing this with some Chinese colleagues when they suggested that if possible, overseas Chinese people (including me, which I am half Hakka) should always:

- be proud of their heritage
- learn some Chinese
- use chopsticks, eat Chinese food
- support the Chinese community (Chinatown)
- celebrate Chinese holidays, ancestoral customs
- refer to themselves as Chinese-[country] (Chinese-Canadian)


Their argument was "cultural preservation, loyalty to your identity and the Chinese collective, and blood duty." Is there any rational reasoning behind any of those? I'll examine them one by one:


1. being proud of your heritage

This implies that I should associate myself and be responsible for the doings of my ancestors, so I should be proud of Chinese science, philosophy and arts. That would be quite hypocritical, unless every Chinese people would also associate themselves with Mao Zedong and other negative things done by the "Chinese collective."

If I am to be proud of my lineage to the samurai caste in feudal Japan, I would also have to claim responsibility for the Korean invasion of 16th century.

However, being indifferent to my heritage also seems irresponsible (for some unknown gut reason, cultural bias?)

To what extent should one hold pride for their heritage?
Does being proud of your heritage imply superiority over other heritages? Why else would you be proud of something?


2. blood duty: loyalty to the Chinese collective

By its definition, being loyal to the Chinese collective would mean that the Chinese people should have priority in my actions. Chinese charities would be the first choice, and I should shop in Chinatown.

This is racism, people should be charitable to others with no bias. It also implies segregation, where each race looks out for their own race.


3. Referring to yourself as a "Chinese-Canadian"

This is referring to completely naturalized citizens with Chinese heritage. To me, it implies that you either have a dual citizenship, or your loyalty is split between the "Chinese collective" and Canada.


4. cultural preservation: using chopsticks, learning Chinese, celebrating Chinese holidays

Learning Chinese is beneficial for employability and communication in our multicultural society anyway, but to learn Chinese to fortify my cultural identity is in my opinion irrational.

This would be a more fundamental question: what is the argument for preservation of culture?

I assume the first response by more conservative people would be "tradition." What is the benefit of tradition? There are beneficial Chinese traditions (ethics), outdated traditions (Confucist sexism), and sometimes bizarre traditions (superstition of tetraphobia). Tradition is a non-essential qualifier.


If all races are successfully integrated into the multicultural society of Canada, where everybody feels comfortable with each other's culture, is there an obligation to continue this tradition of cultural preservation?

I've supported multiculturalism over assimilation my entire life, but multiculturalism mainly applies to immigrants who have been raised in their culture. Should the same apply for younger, integrated generations?

Our little Canada's growing up, lol....

Millions of Americans ask this same question all the time...Ive got a significant Scots-Irish ancestry with some Black and Native American thrown in...

So, I just call myself American, although Scots/Irish/Celtic mythology, culture, etc. is a large interest of mine...

1. being proud of your heritage



If I am to be proud of my lineage to the samurai caste in feudal Japan, I would also have to claim responsibility for the Korean invasion of 16th century.



The Korean-Canadians I know still hold you accountable.

Our little Canada's growing up, lol....

Millions of Americans ask this same question all the time...Ive got a significant Scots-Irish ancestry with some Black and Native American thrown in...

So, I just call myself American, although Scots/Irish/Celtic mythology, culture, etc. is a large interest of mine...

Yes, and contrary to the OPers friends, true Scots (yes, I know the irony in using that terminology here) find it highly irritating when you colonials claim you're Scottish. You're not Scots-Irish-African-Native-American. You're American!

Couldn't care less.

Yes, and contrary to the OPers friends, true Scots (yes, I know the irony in using that terminology here) find it highly irritating when you colonials claim you're Scottish. You're not Scots-Irish-African-Native-American. You're American!

Where does that put Sean Connery? :p

Where does that put Sean Connery? :p

On a spectrum from Scottish to twat, he's a word that this forum unneccessarily censors.

I don't think there's any thing bad about passing down your heritage to your children. There are many cultures that have had their languages and traditions eradicated both by governmental authorities and sometimes by a lack of passing down things. While Chinese culture seems to be thriving there are probably things not being passed down (in the same way that American culture is changing) but that doesn't mean you are required to do it, just whatever is important to you should be passed down.

My grandparents (maternal and paternal) came here from Ireland so I have a lot of traditions/words/phrases that were passed down to me, I do the fun things still as an adult. I can't really trace most of it back to Ireland so much as Irish-Catholic or even more often "my family is weird" but we do things that are passed down. I feel like it's part of our heritage.

Accountability is another issue that I reject. It is important to establish an official stance on the regretability of the war, but it will take an ass long time for the Japanese Diet make a formal apology about anything as long as there are hard-right politicians.

There are many instances of the PM making informal apologies, eventhough I would personally dogeza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogeza) to show a more heartfelt display.

But it is ridiculous to claim that Japan has not repaid its debt to the pacific. It is a debt that cannot be repaid unless the dead soldiers and generals are resurrected. Modern Japan is not Imperial Japan, it's a new generation of people where most were born during the post-war era. Japan has contributed tons of aid to China which the Communist Party censors from their citizens.

If a murder is committed, his child will not be held financially or morally accountable for the murder, why should nations be an exception? If anything, members of the CCP should be held accountable for the deaths incurred during the Cultural Revolution.


The Korean-Canadians I know still hold you accountable.

Where do you live? I went to the dojang as a child and the Korean master and his family has always been extremely gracious. There are many Koreans in Sherwood Park, and most of them are politically apathetic.

I dunno, I think China's 2 billion citizens are holding down the fort pretty well as far as preserving culture.

I think, ultimately, it's a decision that can only be left up to the individual. Some people find their heritage very important, and wish to preserve it. Some find the culture they live in to be far more important. Most blend the two. I am fascinated by the wide spectrum of cultures, languages, customs and religions that share my city, but I don't think anyone should be "forced" to act a certain way because someone else thinks it's better for them. Insisting that all immigrants (or children of immigrants, or grandchildren of immigrants) cling to their culture is as dumb as insisting all immigrants assimilate and abandon their culture.

You can't eat a hamburger with chopsticks.

However, you can eat spaghetti with chopsticks.

Welcome to the New World.

Where do you live? I went to the dojang as a child and the Korean master and his family has always been extremely gracious. There are many Koreans in Sherwood Park, and most of them are politically apathetic.

On my travels in Canada.
That whole being nice and getting along with you is just an act and what they want you to think.
You would be amazed at what people say in front of you, when they don't think you can understand them.

Anyways it might be best for you and your family to be out of Canada by the first Friday the 13th in 2010.

I dunno, I think China's 2 billion citizens are holding down the fort pretty well as far as preserving culture.

I think, ultimately, it's a decision that can only be left up to the individual. Some people find their heritage very important, and wish to preserve it. Some find the culture they live in to be far more important. Most blend the two. I am fascinated by the wide spectrum of cultures, languages, customs and religions that share my city, but I don't think anyone should be "forced" to act a certain way because someone else thinks it's better for them. Insisting that all immigrants (or children of immigrants, or grandchildren of immigrants) cling to their culture is as dumb as insisting all immigrants assimilate and abandon their culture.

My understanding is the CCP counts overseas Chinese in their census.

You can't eat a hamburger with chopsticks.

I put it to you that you haven't tried hard enough. Anything can be eaten with chopsticks i you have enough perseverance.

Except button mushrooms in satay sauce from my local chinese, those are buggers to pick up.

On my travels in Canada.
That whole being nice and getting along with you is just an act and what they want you to think.
You would be amazed at what people say in front of you, when they don't think you can understand them.

Anyways it might be best for you and your family to be out of Canada by the first Friday the 13th in 2010.

Meh, He Speaks French, fuck em....How am i supposed to be afraid of someone who Speaks French? :p

Meh, He Speaks French, fuck em....How am i supposed to be afraid of someone who Speaks French? :p

I don't speak French, I speak Korean.

You can't eat a hamburger with chopsticks.

Of course you can.

I put it to you that you haven't tried hard enough. Anything can be eaten with chopsticks i you have enough perseverance.

Except button mushrooms in satay sauce from my local chinese, those are buggers to pick up.
Actually, I have tried, and there are two ways to do it, but they are both cheating -- one requires the food to stop being "a hamburger" and the other is a cheater's way of using chopsticks.

But as to things that are buggers to pick up with chopsticks, the one that I have never been able to do but will someday or die trying is to eat a whole, peeled, hardboiled egg by holding it with chopsticks (no spearing) while taking bites from it and doing other things as well. I heard a legend about a Japanese secretary at NEC's first NYC office doing that at her desk.

You can't eat a hamburger with chopsticks.


Seen Koreans do it all the time. I am sure they stare at me using my hands as much as I stare at them using chop sticks too.

Of course you can.
Video, thanks. *waits for it to appear on youtube* I want the instructions.

You can't eat a hamburger with chopsticks
Actually, I cut up my burger and eat it with a fork so you can, just not the way you're used to eating.

Actually, I have tried, and there are two ways to do it, but they are both cheating -- one requires the food to stop being "a hamburger" and the other is a cheater's way of using chopsticks.

It really depends on the kind of hamburger. It's easy to eat a McDonald cheeseburger with Chinese chopsticks as opposed to Japanese or Korean chopsticks, while a Big Mac would be difficult even with utility chopsticks.

George B. Shaw:
"Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it."

That pretty much reflects my view. Unless there's a genuine external threat to one's society (as in: enemy army is about to invade), national pride makes things worse for everyone else (and eventually yourself) the more you stress it.

Maybe me being of mixed heritage has something to do with it.

George B. Shaw:
"Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it."

That pretty much reflects my view. Unless there's a genuine external threat to one's society (as in: enemy army is about to invade), national pride makes things worse for everyone else (and eventually yourself) the more you stress it.

Maybe me being of mixed heritage has something to do with it.

That's pretty much what I think too, but nationalism is to me, a more complicated issue.

It really depends on the kind of hamburger. It's easy to eat a McDonald cheeseburger with Chinese chopsticks as opposed to Japanese or Korean chopsticks, while a Big Mac would be difficult even with utility chopsticks.

those are easy.
Stab big mac with Chop stick A.
Stab at different angle with chop stick B.
eat around chopsticks.

Also, Kahless, would your friends consider you to be betraying your heritage if you ate things like hamburgers and spaghetti (or even - gasp! - that weird Montreal thing called "spaghetti smoked meat" (shades of "Motel Hell") -- even if you did it with chopsticks?

The whole point of my original post was that this so-called New World (which isn't really geographic anymore) is a place where cultures are changing all around us due to admixture. So how much are we supposed to cut ourselves off from everything around us to continue playacting one kind of lifestyle as opposed to another?

Reminds me of the first dinner I ate in Prague -- I was the only American in a Mexican restaurant staffed by Czechs speaking Czech, serving from a menu printed in English, to diners who were all Japanese (from the Japanese embassy next door), in a medieval building in a 1000-year-old Slavic/pre-Slavic city the government of which had just done something (I've forgotten what) about which they said it was a proud new chapter in their people's "ancient cultural tradition of internationalism."

those are easy.
Stab big mac with Chop stick A.
Stab at different angle with chop stick B.
eat around chopsticks.

I don't know of any sane person of yellow skin and black hair to stab their food. Chopsticks aren't weapons :mad:

Actually, I cut up my burger and eat it with a fork so you can, just not the way you're used to eating.

those are easy.
Stab big mac with Chop stick A.
Stab at different angle with chop stick B.
eat around chopsticks.
Those are the two cheats I was referring to. Note: Both are cheating.

I don't know of any sane person of yellow skin and black hair to stab their food. Chopsticks aren't weapons :mad:

Yes they are. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5suAiX18Pg)

Also, Kahless, would your friends consider you to be betraying your heritage if you ate things like hamburgers and spaghetti (or even - gasp! - that weird Montreal thing called "spaghetti smoked meat" (shades of "Motel Hell") -- even if you did it with chopsticks?

It's hypocritical in the sense that some conservatives think it's okay to wear Western clothes and eat Western food but it is not okay to criticise Chinese Communism and date non-Chinese women. To those hard-liners, I am a mongrel.


Reminds me of the first dinner I ate in Prague -- I was the only American in a Mexican restaurant staffed by Czechs speaking Czech, serving from a menu printed in English, to diners who were all Japanese (from the Japanese embassy next door), in a medieval building in a 1000-year-old Slavic/pre-Slavic city the government of which had just done something (I've forgotten what) about which they said it was a proud new chapter in their people's "ancient cultural tradition of internationalism."

That's interesting, but segregationalists claim that internationalism would blur these cultural features into one big melting pot, losing all this diversity.

I don't know of any sane person of yellow skin and black hair to stab their food. Chopsticks aren't weapons :mad:

Oh really????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qswPBsTdiEA look at about 5 minutes.

On a side note Korean martial artist are the only poeple i know able to kill people with spare change.

It's hypocritical in the sense that some conservatives think it's okay to wear Western clothes and eat Western food but it is not okay to criticise Chinese Communism and date non-Chinese women. To those hard-liners, I am a mongrel.




That's interesting, but segregationalists claim that internationalism would blur these cultural features into one big melting pot, losing all this diversity.
Yes, I've heard such arguments from some people, and I dismiss them as bullshit. Here's why: The Czech government's reference (and I'm actually quoting a news article that quoted a Czech official) to an "ancient cultural tradition of internationalism" was not just political hot air. The Czech lands of Bohemia and Moravia, located where they are, have been a crossroads of transcontinental east-west trade and travel for well over 1000 years. Throughout their recorded history, the Czechs have shown a repeated pattern of welcoming foreigners of other cultures into their lands and cities, of encouraging foreigners to move there for various purposes, of establishing official policies and laws in support of religious, political and cultural tolerance, etc. Yet despite that, there remains a recognizable culture that is "Czech." And that multicultural internationalism is a part of that cultural identity. Even when Czech culture itself was under attack and suppression by first the German Hapsburgs and then the Russian Soviets, the Czechs, seeking to preserve their traditions and language, did not abandon that openness to foreign presences. Because they do see it as part of who and what they are.

So, internationalism does not necessarily mean the end of cultural identity.

The Czech history resonates with me because I'm a New Yorker of mixed European ancestry -- Southern Italian, German, French-Alsatian, and Russian (via Poland). My ancestors who migrated from Europe to the US were themselves the descendants of migrants from other places in ages past. (My shorthand for explaining my cultural heritage is that my people are Ellis Islanders.) And I am the direct product of a culture that is itself defined in part by the mixing of together of other cultures. So how am I to remain true to my heritage, if not by migrating and exposing myself to new cultural influences?

Finally, history shows us that the entirety of human history is series of migrations resulting cultural cross-pollination. The idea that cultural identity is something static that must be preserved, as if in amber, goes against the very nature of human beings and how we live. It is very sad, in my opinion, when languages disappear and musical or artistic forms vanish over time, but that is the way of the world.

I'm such a mess of Northern Europe that I tend to stick with American.

That's pretty much what I think too, but nationalism is to me, a more complicated issue.

Maybe you are refering to the social and emotional aspects of nationalism, the fact that many people who grew up and live in harsh living conditions find comfort in the sense of a united community that stands together on the basis of common heritage, similar to a family or religious group. They feel that they are part of something bigger than themselves and that their existence is not meaningless.
However, in contrast to those thoughts, the abuse and murder rate inside a nationalist community is usually far higher than in a more liberal-minded one. Seems strange to me that people who point out how they are of "the same blood" are more likely to stab each other than people who don't. Also, national pride linked to social issues tends to hold people back from improving their situation, because it tempts them to blame others for their misery, (usually on a total irrational basis) instead of doing something to alleviate it.

Or maybe I'm getting you completely wrong.

You can't eat a hamburger with chopsticks.

However, you can eat spaghetti with chopsticks.

Doesn't it make the spaghetti taste like Chinese food?

OK, how about this: Try to eat applesauce with chopsticks.

OK, how about this: Try to eat applesauce with chopsticks.

easy to do if you pick up the bowl why doing it. Though Koreans use a spoon along side the chopsticks

OK, how about this: Try to eat applesauce with chopsticks.

Have a bowl of soups with chopsticks.

Have a bowl of soups with chopsticks.

Easy, just time consuming.

OK, how about this: Try to eat applesauce with chopsticks.

Have a bowl of soups with chopsticks.

Okay...Ill just grab a bowl and some chopsticks...

Now just drink from the bowl...

and done.....


what, just cause I didnt use em doesnt mean i didnt have them and they werent there with me...

Of course people should be proud of their heritage. Its a part of them. It should be honored, and traditions kept simply for the sake of keeping them alive. People should be proud of their ancestors, and honor them.

It baffles me that people no longer care about their own past anymore.

And yes, cultures change over time, but that doesn't mean people should let them die without trying to preserve them. What once was, can exist again.

OK, how about this: Try to eat applesauce with chopsticks.

Have a bowl of soups with chopsticks.

Having chopsticks does not mean Asia doesn't have the spoon.

I agree as far as feeling pride in your background and ethnicity, I agree in learning your parents' language, I am incredibly proud of being Spanish and of my language and dialects. But... the rest, well, is inconsequential.

I have a strong belief that people should feel proud of their heritage and of what they are, even taking in the less than nice parts, and if possible one should learn their language, I made a terrible mistake in letting mine go when I moved and would do simply anything to get it back.

Be proud, learn your culture but don't let it blind you. That is all.

I'm English of Irish descent and I feel very meh about my heritage.

My culture now revolves around indie music, video games and computing. I simply don't care what my ancestors were doing 200 years ago.

I'm English of Irish descent and I feel very meh about my heritage.

My culture now revolves around indie music, video games and computing. I simply don't care what my ancestors were doing 200 years ago.

Likely killing each other.

Likely killing each other.

Most probably.

Maybe that's why I think the whole heritage thing is such bullshit. If you look back into your family history you're likely to find that the people you come from are not people to be proud of.

Most probably.

Maybe that's why I think the whole heritage thing is such bullshit. If you look back into your family history you're likely to find that the people you come from are not people to be proud of.

Hmm mabe thats the issue. The neonazi's are composed of people related to Hitler and they got to br proud of who they are related to.

Actually, I have tried, and there are two ways to do it, but they are both cheating -- one requires the food to stop being "a hamburger" and the other is a cheater's way of using chopsticks.

But as to things that are buggers to pick up with chopsticks, the one that I have never been able to do but will someday or die trying is to eat a whole, peeled, hardboiled egg by holding it with chopsticks (no spearing) while taking bites from it and doing other things as well. I heard a legend about a Japanese secretary at NEC's first NYC office doing that at her desk.

But why? I mean, really--why? Just so she could say she did it? If you can eat maki with your hands, I'm pretty sure you can eat a hardboiled egg, too.

I am half Ashkenazi Jew (don't tell any Jewish people this, they raaaage when you use the term 'half Jewish', by their rules I'm fully Jewish) and half British. I don't really do anything to show that I'm proud of my Jewish side (don't really care), I can't really think of how you can really that doesn't involve a religious element. I really like Britain though, and am probably a pretty stereotypical Brit in many respects, as in I tend to use 'Britishisms' when I can.

I am half Ashkenazi Jew (don't tell any Jewish people this, they raaaage when you use the term 'half Jewish', by their rules I'm fully Jewish) and half British. I don't really do anything to show that I'm proud of my Jewish side (don't really care), I can't really think of how you can really that doesn't involve a religious element. I really like Britain though, and am probably a pretty stereotypical Brit in many respects, as in I tend to use 'Britishisms' when I can.

I dated a Jewish boy whose father wasn't Jewish. He said we could never get married and have kids (seeing as we were 16, that was not really my concern) because I'm not Jewish, therefor his kids wouldn't be Jewish, and his mother would be upset.

You'd think in a time of accurate paternity tests you could get a LITTLE leniency, yanno?

I dated a Jewish boy whose father wasn't Jewish. He said we could never get married and have kids (seeing as we were 16, that was not really my concern) because I'm not Jewish, therefor his kids wouldn't be Jewish, and his mother would be upset.

You'd think in a time of accurate paternity tests you could get a LITTLE leniency, yanno?

Yeah, but luckily for me my Mum is a Christian, and I'm an atheist. So she doesn't give a shit about that nonsense, and neither do I.

I am half Ashkenazi Jew (don't tell any Jewish people this, they raaaage when you use the term 'half Jewish', by their rules I'm fully Jewish) and half British. I don't really do anything to show that I'm proud of my Jewish side (don't really care), I can't really think of how you can really that doesn't involve a religious element. I really like Britain though, and am probably a pretty stereotypical Brit in many respects, as in I tend to use 'Britishisms' when I can.

I have one great-grandmother on my mother side so I'm technically Jewish. I use it as a pass to make holocaust jokes.

I have one great-grandmother on my mother side so I'm technically Jewish. I use it as a pass to make holocaust jokes.

According to the Nuremberg laws, you count as Aryan when you're less than 1/4 jewish, so no holocaust jokes for you.

According to the Nuremberg laws, you count as Aryan when you're less than 1/4 jewish, so no holocaust jokes for you.

According to Jewish law it comes down the female line.

*takes pass back*

According to Jewish law it comes down the female line.

*takes pass back*

Yes, but the Jewish people are not identical with the people who were declared to be Jews by the Nazis, so therefore, jokes about Jewish stereotypes are ok, since they affect Jews by Jewish tradition, like yourself, but jokes about the holocaust, who affect people who were perceived as Jews by the Nazis, are wrong, just like the way this conversation is heading probably is.:p

Yes, but the Jewish people are not identical with the people who were declared to be Jews by the Nazis, so therefore, jokes about Jewish stereotypes are ok, since they affect Jews by Jewish tradition, like yourself, but jokes about the holocaust, who affect people who were perceived as Jews by the Nazis, are wrong, just like the way this conversation is heading probably is.:p

I think that deciding who is or is not a Jew based on Nazi definitions is probably not the best way to go. ;)

I'm proud of my Reiver heritage. Or actually it's maybe more of an excuse.

But either one.

According to the Nuremberg laws, you count as Aryan when you're less than 1/4 jewish, so no holocaust jokes for you.
Bist du voll sicher davon?

The laws classified people as German if all four of their grandparents were of "German blood" (white circles on the chart), while people were classified as Jews if they descended from three or four Jewish grandparents (black circles in top row right). A person with one or two Jewish grandparents was a Mischling, a crossbreed, of "mixed blood".

But why? I mean, really--why? Just so she could say she did it? If you can eat maki with your hands, I'm pretty sure you can eat a hardboiled egg, too.
If you could do it, wouldn't you?

If you could do it, wouldn't you?

Considering I can't navigate my way through a normal meal without spilling something on myself, I'd say it's a moot question. :p

I am half Ashkenazi Jew (don't tell any Jewish people this, they raaaage when you use the term 'half Jewish', by their rules I'm fully Jewish) and half British.

What's your father? If you're father's the British one, point at your Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup and laugh like a madman.

If you're father's the British one, point at your Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup and laugh like a madman.

Why laugh?

Why laugh?

I dunno, it just seemed appropriate.

One of the impressive things about the movie "Spirited Away" was how young Chihiro began to gain strength and control over her disastrous situation once she began to reclaim the costume and rituals of her heritage.

There's a lot of nasty baggage in those heritages too, like bigotry and persecution, but I like to hope I can pick and choose and keep the good stuff while discarding the rest.

I feel stronger for supporting my traditions, yet my forebears perpetrated the infamous Sack of Drogheda, which i would rather not re enact.
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/cromwellian-conquest-of-ireland/the-siege-of-drogheda.html

Of course people should be proud of their heritage. Its a part of them. It should be honored, and traditions kept simply for the sake of keeping them alive. People should be proud of their ancestors, and honor them.

Why should traditions be kept alive because they are traditions? I will preserve good practices and abandon bad practices, which have nothing to do with preserving tradition.


It baffles me that people no longer care about their own past anymore.

I should care about the past, but not necessarily my past.


And yes, cultures change over time, but that doesn't mean people should let them die without trying to preserve them.

Nobody is suggesting cultural annihilation. Again, why should cultures be retained? If I strictly observe only my own cultural heritage, I would be self-segregating.


What once was, can exist again.

What are you talking about? Native American cultures?


You metion alot of "shoulds" and obligations, but I don't think they can be adequately explained. I agree that they should be preserved, and ancestoral honor is important to most Asian cultures (I'm not sure about others). My gut feelings say that I should fulfill certain obligations, but my gut feelings are sometimes racist and prejudiced.

Its irrational, pointless, and usually a waste of time. I do what I want...

I am, I fear, the diametric opposite of Trollgaard on this. I oppose any method or means of defining oneself in terms of the actions of one's ancestors - they are meaningless and irrelevant now. Chaining oneself to the past through `heritage' is holding oneself back from the future.

To quote myself from another thread (and incarnation) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14616570&postcount=343):

Ah, I think we've found the problem.

You somehow believe that which side of the line in the sand you were born on should be important in your life. Allow me to let you in on a little secret kiddo - it isn't. National borders, nationhood, patriotism? All of them have a simple purpose - keeping you, a human being and nothing more (or less) divided from them, also human beings and nothing more (and definitely nothing less).

There is no `black' or `white'; no `patriotic' or `traitorous'; no `Christian' or `Muslim' or `atheist'; no `American', `British', `Tibetan', `Pakistani', or `Chilean'. We are all human, nothing more.

Borders only have power and meaning because people let them. They have no intrinsic value. Why, in the name of all that is good, should parts of the world `belong' to arbitrary groups of people, based on nothing more than accidents of birth and long ago battles? Letting go of the silly idea of nations and borders, recognising them for the false divisions that they are, would bring incalculable progress to humanity.

This is more concerned with borders and countries, but the same applies to heritage and ethnicity. And, for that matter, to traditions. As G.K. Chesterton said: "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead." As admirable as some of them may have been, every person is a product of eir times, and eir attitudes and beliefs are linked to this. Which means they are all perfectly reasonable to look at in history, but bringing them into modern society and politics will never lead to progress, merely stagnation. Indeed, I would give the vote to children before ancestors: after all, children are the future, which is where we are going, while ancestors are the past, which is the one place we are always leaving behind. No explorer ever got anywhere worthwhile by staying in sight of his homeland.

Taking pride in one's ethnicity is, I think, evidently meaningless. It is exactly as meaningless as taking pride in one's country of birth, or one's sex - in all cases, one has no control over it, no ability to do anything about it, and no opportunity to change it. The folly of taking pride in it can be seen by reversing it, and considering being shamed by your ethnicity/birthplace/sex. Clearly, in modern society, this is not a concept which should be contemplated - no-one should feel inferior because of factors beyond their control. And similarly, it's reverse - pride in such characteristics - should also be discarded.

Heritage is a little more complex. My opposition here stems both from my opposition to tradition, and from the general practical results. Nearly inevitably, pride in one's heritage becomes fear of those outside your heritage: after all, if we have the best history, everyone else must be worse. This then leads naturally to the BNP, and their rhetoric about preserving Britishness; to white supremacists, and their belief that Anglo-Saxon heritage is vital; to the Nazis (yes, I went there), and their defense of imperialist aggression as the inherent right of the German people, superior to all others by virtue of their blood and their history.

I will note, however, that this applies less to oppressed minority groups. Then pride in heritage and common bonds can help them resist oppression. It is worth noting that the oppression of these minorities follows from a belief on the part of the majority that their culture, traditions, heritage, and ethnicity are superior (delete as appropriate). In short, such pride on the part of a minority can be a defense against oppression resulting from such pride on the part of a majority. It follows that if all give up the folly of pride in their heritage, such pride will no longer be needed on the part of minorities.

To answer the thread title, then, heritage and ethnicity are significant to some people, I cannot deny that. However, they should no be: both are inherently meaningless, and merely create artificial distinctions that humanity could do without.

Actually, I have tried, and there are two ways to do it, but they are both cheating -- one requires the food to stop being "a hamburger" and the other is a cheater's way of using chopsticks.

But as to things that are buggers to pick up with chopsticks, the one that I have never been able to do but will someday or die trying is to eat a whole, peeled, hardboiled egg by holding it with chopsticks (no spearing) while taking bites from it and doing other things as well. I heard a legend about a Japanese secretary at NEC's first NYC office doing that at her desk.

Is possible, egg and burgers use the same mechanic for being picked up. You're thinking of the traditional way of picking it up by supporting the food with pressure from both sides of the chopsticks. That doesn't work. With wide or jelly consistency foods, you need to place your chopsticks under the food and lift it as a support. Harder with a hamburger, but doable. With an egg, you can wedge the lower end of it between the chopsticks and pick it up, but you need a very fine amount of pressure. Too much and it goes flying. Too little, and it falls through.

Is possible, egg and burgers use the same mechanic for being picked up. You're thinking of the traditional way of picking it up by supporting the food with pressure from both sides of the chopsticks. That doesn't work. With wide or jelly consistency foods, you need to place your chopsticks under the food and lift it as a support. Harder with a hamburger, but doable. With an egg, you can wedge the lower end of it between the chopsticks and pick it up, but you need a very fine amount of pressure. Too much and it goes flying. Too little, and it falls through.
The woman eating the egg did it by holding the egg between the chopsticks, not resting it on the sticks. I have this from an eyewitness -- namely, my mom, who worked with this woman decades ago and found it very difficult to get anything done at her desk at midday, because she was too busy staring at this egg-snacker at the next desk over and wondering, "How the fuck does she do that?" Obviously, her skill level was extremely refined -- very good chopstick-fu.

As for resting a burger on the sticks, that would do excellently for moving the burger, serving the burger, etc., but I think it would be very unstable for eating the burger.

We have to consider the foods that are prepared in cultures that use chopsticks. Everything in those cuisines is prepared with that eating method in mind -- either in pieces that can be easily picked up with them or with cooking methods that allow a large thing (like a whole fish) to be picked apart with them. The food is, to a degree, designed for the utensil. I actually find it more awkward to eat many Asian foods with a fork than with chopsticks.

But western foods, obviously, are not designed with chopsticks in mind -- the basic sandwich, of which the hamburger is an example, is specifically designed to be held in the hand while eating it (remember the legend of the Earl of Sandwich inventing it so he could avoid interrupting his card games for dinner). That is the most efficient way of eating it.

FINDING A WAY BACK TO THE MAIN TOPIC:

So the whole reason I brought it up at all was because Kahless mentioned her friends saying -- rather cavalierly and without due thought, imo -- that she should "always use chopsticks."

That, to me implied that they were further suggesting that she should not eat western foods like hamburgers, because it is so difficult to handle those with chopsticks -- they are not meant to be handled with chopsticks. That might not be an issue in China, Japan, or Korea, but in Canada (where I think she is) it likely would be.

To me, this just goes to show the folly of being a snob about one's heritage -- and there is a difference between liking the tales of one's ancestors and wanting to honor their traditions, and being a snob who thinks one's own ancestral traditions are somehow better than other people's. It puts one in a position of being made to look like a fool over something as simple as lunch.

My take on the matter is this: You should do what works. Period.

I'm of mixed European ancestry, but when I am eating, I let my hunger dictate how I will eat what is in front of me -- chopsticks, knife and fork, spoon, my hands, whatever will get the food into my mouth in the easiest, cleanest, most efficient way -- and screw whether it is foreign to my culture or not. What -- am I supposed to starve rather than cross some invisible and arbitrary boundary? Fuck that. I only get an hour for lunch.

When a person deliberately chooses a less functional way of doing something only because it is "traditional" or of their "heritage," then that person is letting the past hold them back. Fine to waste time on things that don't really matter, like holiday observances or entertainments or whatever -- but when it comes to things like food, money, technology, politics, law, etc., I say such slavish adherence to the past is self-destructive.

And by the way, I say that as a Euro-style animist for whom ancestor veneration is very important -- veneration, yes; immitation, um, no. I'm living MY life, not theirs.

All of this brings me to another bottom line, which I guess, to me, is the last word on the matter -- one of my favorite quotes from Lawrence Sterne:

"Life's too short to be long about the forms of it."

Bist du voll sicher davon?

Yeah, pretty sure. Having 4 German grandparents meant that all of them were less then 100% "Jewish" ( having 2 Jewish parents), therefore 3 "German" grandparents and one "Half-Jew" would have made you Aryan. This makes no sense of course (why does the "mixed blood" thing apply for your generation but not for 3 generations ago?), but they knew that they had to set deliberate limits - by their own logic they would have to persecute every single member of society for not being pure-blooded.
In my opinion, this leads to another fact: All ancestral pride is ultimately arbitrary. What makes you belong to "nationality X"? That both of your parents were "X". And what makes them "X"? That all their parents were "X" too. And how do you determine that the parents of your parents were "X"? And so forth...but if your great-great-great-great-grandfather was half "X", half "Z", his son can't be "X", and that means that the son of his son can't be "X" either, neither can his descendants be.
Every single human being descends from migration and blending. When somebody is proud of his heritage, where does he put the limits for "his" national heritage? 1000 years? 2000? Why stop there? You could just as well be proud of your ancestors from 50,000 years ago. Or 500,000. Why not be proud of cretaceous mammals? Or the first cells?

Have a bowl of soups with chopsticks.
That's not very hard. Just eat the solid pieces out with the chopsticks and pick up the bowl to drink the broth (or reverse the order). I eat almost everything with chopsticks (unless it can be eaten by hand) 'cause I always forget to bring in the cutlery that usually goes with whatever I'm eating. So yeah, chili over rice with chopsticks, spaghetti, paprikash with chopsticks... whatever random leftovers, with chopsticks. Chopsticks are also useful stirring utensils and they're good for flipping small items over in a frying pan.

I think that everyone should know how to use them, they're quite useful cutlery items and you look like an ass asking for a fork if you go anywhere that serves most things with them.

Also, I think that everyone should know at least two languages even if their ancestors spoke the language of the country they inhabit and at least try to learn about other cultures in general.


But then I'm a Canadian born to American parents who are complete mutts (my mom's side is English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, French, German, Swedish and Norwegian, my dad's side is Irish and eastern European... nobody has given me a comprehensive list of the countries of origin) and many of my ancestors left the "old world" for the new some time ago so there isn't really much of an attachment there. At some point, I would like to identify all the home countries of my ancestors and visit these countries and hometowns if possible, but that's about the extent of it.

The only way my heritage affects me is something like this:

Me: "My ancestors kicked ass/kept literature alive in Europe!"
Friend: "This affects you how?"
Me: "Erm... They, uh... It inspired me how to learn about how they kicked ass?"
Friend: "Do you even celebrate any holidays, or know any recipes, or something from your heritage?"
Me: "Erm... Saint Patrick's Day?"
Friend: "YOU DIDN'T EVEN WEAR GREEN!"
Me: "You obviously did not see my boxers."
Friend: "Obviously."

Yeah... So #1 to maybe some small degree, I disagree with the rest.

My ancestors are from about 5 different countries, so its easy for me to pretty much not do anything. No group really wants to claim me, in the way some apparently do- like the Chinese in your case.

That said, I've learned a little about every where my ancestors were from, but culturally I am fairly unaffected. I celebrate certain days that others wouldn't or in different ways (dyngus day anyone?). I think there is little value of doing traditional or "cultural" things unless you personally enjoy them.

Heritage is fine, as long as you're still willing to adapt to other cultures and societies... you can't just exist in a vacuum inside a nation, you have to do some attempts to integrate. That said, there's two ways a culture, language etc. can die off, one is fine one isn't:
1. A state conquers another one and starts wiping out the native culture. This is generally disagreeable and should be frowned upon.

2. The culture starts adapting and people choose to change free of coercion, yet a small group still clings to the old ways. This is fine, why should we care if they choose to change?

The woman eating the egg did it by holding the egg between the chopsticks, not resting it on the sticks.


Directly between? Not below at all? Hmm, that would interesting to try.


As for resting a burger on the sticks, that would do excellently for moving the burger, serving the burger, etc., but I think it would be very unstable for eating the burger.

A bit. But it's possible to eat it the traditional way, depending on the strength of your fingers, the length of the chopsticks and the height of the burger.


So the whole reason I brought it up at all was because Kahless mentioned her friends saying -- rather cavalierly and without due thought, imo -- that she should "always use chopsticks."

Aside from the training in dexterity, it's a rather silly recommendation. Clinging to tradition when you've already departed tradition by setting up shop in some other place where your traditions never were to begin with is a weird sort of doublethink.

That being said, I can sort of see where they're coming from. If the clinging is due in part to hold on to an identity that hasn't been really formed with the country of residence.

Why should traditions be kept alive because they are traditions? I will preserve good practices and abandon bad practices, which have nothing to do with preserving tradition.

Because they are traditions. Simply that. It shows honor and respect.




I should care about the past, but not necessarily my past. Of course you should care about your past.




Nobody is suggesting cultural annihilation. Again, why should cultures be retained? If I strictly observe only my own cultural heritage, I would be self-segregating. So? People can, and do, adapt to new cultures, but they should try and retain a fair amount of their original culture.




What are you talking about? Native American cultures? Any culture, really.

Ethnic pride is bullshit. Find a real reason to be proud of yourself.

Ethnic pride is bullshit. Find a real reason to be proud of yourself.

Um, no, it isn't. If that was the only reason why someone was proud, then it would be sad, but since that is never the case, we can just ignore that little jibe.

Um, no, it isn't. If that was the only reason why someone was proud, then it would be sad, but since that is never the case, we can just ignore that little jibe.

Pride over something you had nothing to do with is bullshit, whether it's the accomplishments of people who share your ethnicity, shoe size, hair color or any other incidental thing.

Pride over something you had nothing to do with is bullshit, whether it's the accomplishments of people who share your ethnicity, shoe size, hair color or any other incidental thing.

No, I don't believe so.

The same blood courses through person x's veins that flows through group x's veins. Group x's accomplishments call person x to follow their example. Group x's passions, beliefs, and customs are a part of person x.

No, I don't believe so.

The same blood courses through person x's veins that flows through group x's veins. Group x's accomplishments call person x to follow their example. Group x's passions, beliefs, and customs are a part of person x.

Except none of it is in the blood. Choosing your role models based on what you perceive your race to be is self-defeating, not only because "race" is genetically meaningless but because you're limiting yourself severely. Every group teaches values they believe are right and beneficial, and that's fine. But feeling pride in oneself over what some other person has done isn't ever justified, even if we all do it to some degree.

Except none of it is in the blood. Choosing your role models based on what you perceive your race to be is self-defeating, not only because "race" is genetically meaningless but because you're limiting yourself severely. Every group teaches values they believe are right and beneficial, and that's fine. But feeling pride in oneself over what some other person has done isn't ever justified, even if we all do it to some degree.

Nonsense.


The blood of my ancestors, thus my ethnic group, runs through my veins. Their triumphs are my triumphs.Their tragedies are my tragedies. They inspire and caution me. They are me. I am but a another link in the family line, that, gods willing, will continue on until humanity ends.


Blood is important. Perhaps the most important thing in the world. If you can't agree then why are at opposite spectrums and no amount of debate will change our minds.

Nonsense.


The blood of my ancestors, thus my ethnic group, runs through my veins. Their triumphs are my triumphs.Their tragedies are my tragedies. They inspire and caution me. They are me. I am but a another link in the family line, that, gods willing, will continue on until humanity ends.


Blood is important. Perhaps the most important thing in the world. If you can't agree then why are at opposite spectrums and no amount of debate will change our minds.

Blood is entirely meaningless. Individual achievement and character is important, and that isn't genetic. If you were raised by someone of another ethnicity, and not fed stories of whatever greatness you think your ancestors had (and all groups have both greatness and scandal in their past), you would have their values and qualities, regardless the myths and legends belonging to people who you think share your blood (but don't, in any meaningful genetic sense). If your ancestors were great, and are worthy of emulation, then anyone of any ethnicity can learn from them, and should. You had nothing to do with those triumphs and tragedies, and neither did I, but we're both equally capable of learning whatever lesson can be learned. Pride, however, shouldn't figure in.

Blood is entirely meaningless. Individual achievement and character is important, and that isn't genetic. If you were raised by someone of another ethnicity, and not fed stories of whatever greatness you think your ancestors had (and all groups have both greatness and scandal in their past), you would have their values and qualities, regardless the myths and legends belonging to people who you think share your blood (but don't, in any meaningful genetic sense). If your ancestors were great, and are worthy of emulation, then anyone of any ethnicity can learn from them, and should. You had nothing to do with those triumphs and tragedies, and neither did I, but we're both equally capable of learning whatever lesson can be learned. Pride, however, shouldn't figure in.

Blood, pride, honor, family, duty, etc.

You see?

They all go hand in hand.

And you are wrong. Blood is important. Kinship and family, you know?

You just don't understand.

Blood, pride, honor, family, duty, etc.

You see?

They all go hand in hand.

And you are wrong. Blood is important. Kinship and family, you know?

You just don't understand.

Maybe I'd understand if you explained what you were talking about. Slogans are not arguments. Blood, honor, duty, mom's apple pie, whatever.

We study history and philosophy and literature so we can learn about the human condition, who we are as a species, and how we became what we are today.

If I read Hegel, and you read Hegel, but your grandmother was half German and mine wasn't, will you have a greater appreciation of Hegel than I will? Clearly not. It's the same principle. Family, too, has nothing to do with blood. My family is a complicated amalgamation of all races and ethnicites, but our bond is as strong as any other family's. We're kin in the same way any inbred, 100%-whatever group is kin. It's a mental state, not a genetic determination. History is filled with stories of great leaders being followed by worthless heirs - all of the evidence of history tells us that one's value is NOT in the blood.

Maybe I'd understand if you explained what you were talking about. Slogans are not arguments. Blood, honor, duty, mom's apple pie, whatever.

We study history and philosophy and literature so we can learn about the human condition, who we are as a species, and how we became what we are today.

If I read Hegel, and you read Hegel, but your grandmother was half German and mine wasn't, will you have a greater appreciation of Hegel than I will? Clearly not. It's the same principle. Family, too, has nothing to do with blood. My family is a complicated amalgamation of all races and ethnicites, but our bond is as strong as any other family's. We're kin in the same way any inbred, 100%-whatever group is kin. It's a mental state, not a genetic determination. History is filled with stories of great leaders being followed by worthless heirs - all of the evidence of history tells us that one's value is NOT in the blood.

Family is blood, and a select few very close friends.

True, apples can fall far from the tree. And I never said everyone's value is in the blood. Though, you expect great things from children of great people.

I'm saying that through your ethnic group and family you draw inspiration. The culture and traditions should be respected and kept, as much as possible in this shit hole society we live in today. They should be respected and kept because they are part of you (you being each individual).

Also, does your use of 'inbred' show that you are uncomfortable with your own mixed heritage? I ask because inbred has a negative connotation, and there was no reason to show hostility.

Heritage doesn't really mean much to me, but maybe I am being with my English heritage like someone who thinks they don't have an accent.

Family is blood, and a select few very close friends.

True, apples can fall far from the tree. And I never said everyone's value is in the blood. Though, you expect great things from children of great people.

I'm saying that through your ethnic group and family you draw inspiration. The culture and traditions should be respected and kept, as much as possible in this shit hole society we live in today. They should be respected and kept because they are part of you (you being each individual).

Also, does your use of 'inbred' show that you are uncomfortable with your own mixed heritage? I ask because inbred has a negative connotation, and there was no reason to show hostility.

Drawing inspiration from great people is fine, but as I was saying when I used Hegel as an example, you don't need to claim blood relation to someone to draw inspiration from them. There's greatness in all cultures, and we ought to learn from them all. My ability to learn from Hegel or from Confucius or from Kierkegaard is no better or worse because I'm not German or Chinese or Danish. Traditions that bear good fruit should be respected, but not simply for tradition's sake; traditions that lead to intolerance or ignorance should be discarded, and ethnic pride often means the exclusions of outsiders' opinions.

What I meant about family was that ethnicity has nothing to do with the strength of family ties. It's about love and respect and loyalty (etc.), rather than blood. A family that has similar genetics (an inbred group which claims an impossible 100% purity was just an extreme example) isn't necessarily closer or more cohesive than one that's mixed. I don't personally have a mixed heritage, genetically, but I have noticed this my whole life: family is a state of mind - a social construction if you like. Like you said, close friends can be counted as family, even though they surely aren't blood. That's exactly what I mean.

Heritage should be as important as it is to you. That's it.

Personally, I've never particularly cared about my ethnic heritage. But, then, I'm a member of the dominant ethnic group in my country, and my heritage is muddled as hell because my family has a long and glorious history of inter-mixing with other groups.

So I don't expect everyone to share my feelings about ethnicity and heritage. Why should they? I don't see why everyone should feel obligated to view heritage and ethnicity the same way.

Um, no, it isn't. If that was the only reason why someone was proud, then it would be sad, but since that is never the case, we can just ignore that little jibe.

If you've got other things to be proud of, why would you need to be proud of the achievements of others?
And I have met people who will go on about national or ethnic pride, simply because they never achieved anything. Actually, those tend to be the ones most vocal about the subject.

Also, question for eveyone :

Why is it always about ethnic/national pride? Looking at the nations and ethnicities on this planet, there's quite enough to be ashamed of as well. So why only pick the good bits and shout about? Why sweep all the dirt under the carpet?

Directly between? Not below at all? Hmm, that would interesting to try.
According to the witness who is usually reliable, it was directly between the chopsticks. She would hold the egg for extended periods of time, waving it about like a french fry, taking bites out of it, as she talked on the phone, filled out forms with the other hand, etc.

i think ancient cultural wisedoms are something to be proud of, but biological inheritance makes a damd lame excuse for keeping people apart and screwing up the world we all have to live in.