NationStates Jolt Archive

We've had some talk recently of the man in England lambasting fellow immigrants for not speaking English, with a lot of back and forth as to how appropriate that is. The perpetual language debate in any number of countries is highly charged, extremely polarised, and sometimes difficult to really address head on. Language is so intrinsically tied up with notions of self-identity, national identity, exclusion and integration, that there is certainly much at stake when these debates shape public policy.

Lately in Canada, we have Jason Kenney, Minister of Immigration, making the following statement (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Life/Immigrants+should+able+speak+English+French+Kenney/1411803/story.html):

...immigrants should be able to speak either English or French before seeking Canadian citizenship...I think we should look at ways where we can increase the requirements for linguistic competencies for immigrants and citizens.

The article goes on to state:

The government is also shifting its focus away from promoting diversity to encouraging more integration of new Canadians.

A critique of the linguistic approach being taken by the Harper government points this out:

“I would like to know what he defines as a working knowledge of the language,” said Isabel Gibbins, dean of English-as-a-second-language programs at Bow Valley College in Calgary.

“You can have a working knowledge that enables you to go shopping and talk to a doctor, but if you want to be an engineer or a doctor yourself you need to have a much higher level of language training,” she said.

What practical, functional sorts of expectations are we actually talking about here? This rarely gets discussed during the ideological back and forth. I mean, that's sort of a hallmark of ideological back and forth; very little in the way of on the ground solutions. However, I'd like to move a bit beyond that.

Immigration critic, Olivia Chow had this to say on the subject:

The cost of an English class isn’t the only barrier many immigrants — especially women — face to language training. [in response to Kenney pointing out that language classes are provided free of cost]

“A big part of it is when they get into the country, we no longer provide language classes with child care and transportation and a bit of income support. Women are often stuck in the house. Someone has to take care of the kids,” Chow said.

Any comprehensive language-training program must provide other types of support such as income, childcare or transportation to be effective, Chow said.

So, let's talk real standards, real programs, real expectations both before and after immigration. Don't leave out the refugees btw, where language requirements are often waived in favour of the pressing humanitarian concerns inherent in status as a refugee. Yes, there needs to be ideological support for your position, but what I'm really looking for here is to have people actually think about how their beliefs should be implemented for real.

Come on, where are all the 'they should speak the language' people? Surely you have some ideas about how to measure that, what restrictions should be in place, what programs might be necessary? Or have you really never thought about it beyond that spark of moral outrage when someone doesn't understand your lingo?

Fine. I think everyone should make a reasonable effort to understand the language that is in use in the country in which they live. If you've lived in France or the US for 40 years and you still can't speak a word of the language - that's a problem.

However, given my own difficulties with learning Spanish, I have come to a whole new appreciation of the difficulty in switching languages. We should give immigrants some leeway in language and do our best to accommodate them - reasonably. At least that should be the case until they get settled and should reasonably begin to have begun learning the language of the land.

Where is that line? I'm not sure.

Meh, I dont want much, I just want them to be able to tell me where the hell theyre at when they call a cab, thats all...

If they can accomplish this task without difficulty, then they function well enough for the majority speaking society...

The only metric one could possibly use to measure linguistic proficiency would be to clearly and concisely articulate one's opinions, thoughts, feelings, and so on with minimal ambiguity or miscommunication.

Sadly, this same metric would mean much every population would not be proficient in their own language - and we can't have that, now can we?

Fine. I think everyone should make a reasonable effort to understand the language that is in use in the country in which they live. If you've lived in France or the US for 40 years and you still can't speak a word of the language - that's a problem.

However, given my own difficulties with learning Spanish, I have come to a whole new appreciation of the difficulty in switching languages. We should give immigrants some leeway in language and do our best to accommodate them - reasonably. At least that should be the case until they get settled and should reasonably begin to have begun learning the language of the land.

Where is that line? I'm not sure.

That's extremely vague.

If it's in the best interests of everyone involved that immigrants acquire some functional level of linguistic proficiency, how would you suggest the receiving country deal with that? What sorts of progams should be in place to assist this process? Or should the cost be born by the immigrant (in terms of finances, and time/effort) alone?

The only metric one could possibly use to measure linguistic proficiency would be to clearly and concisely articulate one's opinions, thoughts, feelings, and so on with minimal ambiguity or miscommunication. You had me all worried until:

Sadly, this same metric would mean much every population would not be proficient in their own language - and we can't have that, now can we?
Whew!

That's extremely vague.

Sorry. I'm a little hazy on exactly how I would resolve the issue. It's very complicated.

If it's in the best interests of everyone involved that immigrants acquire some functional level of linguistic proficiency, how would you suggest the receiving country deal with that?

I would not be object to a government-run program to help immigrants learn the language, if there is a significant influx of population that needs the support.What sorts of progams should be in place to assist this process? Or should the cost be born by the immigrant (in terms of finances, and time/effort) alone?

The cost should be borne by the immigrant, in my opinion. The only exception that comes to mind right now is if the immigrant is a refugee and has nothing to give.

If the government saw fit to create a language program to teach from one (or multiple) languages to the local language, it should be an at-cost operation. The immigrant would be required to pay the cost of the program, no more and no less.

Sadly, this same metric would mean much every population would not be proficient in their own language - and we can't have that, now can we?

Meh, We do pretty well Id say anyway...

The only metric one could possibly use to measure linguistic proficiency would be to clearly and concisely articulate one's opinions, thoughts, feelings, and so on with minimal ambiguity or miscommunication.

Sadly, this same metric would mean much every population would not be proficient in their own language - and we can't have that, now can we?

You reminded me of something my mother used to tell me when I was learning English as a little girl. One must love, learn and appreciate one's language. Learn it properly. When one does that, then one can achieve a true understanding on how hard it is to learn other languages. But when one begins learning a new language, one needs to take as much care of learning it as one did with their native tongue. That's why, to me, languages, mine included, are hard earners of respect and I have a deep reverence for those who strive to learn any dialect.

Of course, language is the breach between people. If it fails us, and it does, what else is left for expression?

I gotta stop listening to violins when I post on NSG. :p

You reminded me of something my mother used to tell me when I was learning English as a little girl. One must love, learn and appreciate one's language. Learn it properly. When one does that, then one can achieve a true understanding on how hard it is to learn other languages. But when one begins learning a new language, one needs to take as much care of learning it as one did with their native tongue. That's why, to me, languages, mine included, are hard earners of respect and I have a deep reverence for those who strive to learn any dialect.

Of course, language is the breach between people. If it fails us, and it does, what else is left for expression?

I gotta stop listening to violins when I post on NSG. :p

You can tell that Nanatsu speaks a Romance Language...

Noone reveres a Germanic Language, lol....

Fluency is a bit much to ask for, but know survival English(french or what ever) and be able to read the signs and get a basic grasp of documents.

You can tell that Nanatsu speaks a Romance Language...

Noone reveres a Germanic Language, lol....

I revere English because I speak it and because it took me years to master it. But yes, I speak a Romance Language, and 3 dialects stemming from the mix of Spanish, French and Portuguese.

That's extremely vague.

If it's in the best interests of everyone involved that immigrants acquire some functional level of linguistic proficiency, how would you suggest the receiving country deal with that? What sorts of progams should be in place to assist this process? Or should the cost be born by the immigrant (in terms of finances, and time/effort) alone?

I think an important aspect of the article you quoted is that this proficiency in one or the other (or both) of the official languages only becomes important once the immigrant seeks citizenship.
I'm not entirely sure on the facts there, but I believe this implies that the immigrant in question has to have lived in the country for a certain number of years, is that correct?
In this case, I don't find it altogether unreasonable to expect a certain level of language capability. I don't see multiculturalism working when different ethnicities just live side by side, but are still isolated by their languages. On the contrary, such isolation is detrimential and dangerous.

I would certainly not expect a new immigrant to be able to communicate in the new language in the first or second year of residence. But if they have lived in the country for a number of years, everyday issues ought not to be a problem language-wise.
I'm not sure how Canada does on offering language courses for immigrants, they are the key to aquiring the language for many.

If you come to North America, learn to fucking speak English.

If you go to Russia, learn to fucking speak Russian.

If you move to Pakistan, learn to fucking speak Muslim.

This leniency given to all the bastards moving into our respective countries is just ridiculous. I get sick and tired of seeing shit where I live, Arizona.

It's America, we got here first, we speak English, we don't have to conform to speaking Spanish.

But I mean, I wouldn't expect everyone to speak English to me if I moved to Korea. I would learn Korean because they're the ones letting me in and calling the shots.

Know what I mean?

If you move to Pakistan, learn to fucking speak Muslim.



So.....You want me to only speak in Holy Scriptures or something?


I mean...I guess i could try, but I dont really know the Quran all that well...

If you come to North America, learn to fucking speak English.

If you go to Russia, learn to fucking speak Russian.

If you move to Pakistan, learn to fucking speak Muslim.

This leniency given to all the bastards moving into our respective countries is just ridiculous. I get sick and tired of seeing shit where I live, Arizona.

It's America, we got here first, we speak English, we don't have to conform to speaking Spanish.

But I mean, I wouldn't expect everyone to speak English to me if I moved to Korea. I would learn Korean because they're the ones letting me in and calling the shots.

Know what I mean?

Do you have any idea who limiting and crippling it is for people like you to have this point of view?

If the government saw fit to create a language program to teach from one (or multiple) languages to the local language, it should be an at-cost operation. The immigrant would be required to pay the cost of the program, no more and no less.
What if this ends up setting immigrants up for failure?

Let's say the 'breadwinner' of the home makes the effort to learn the language in order to obtain gainful employment. That's a cost in both time and money that could be borne, assuming the program was at-cost. Nonetheless, as pointed out in the OP, what about the person caring for children or elderly relations? It may not be feasible economically or otherwise for that person to gain any sort of proficiency even if they could afford the flat cost of the program (absent child care, transportation costs etc). What can be done in this very common situation?

Also, is the argument for the cost being borne by the immigrant something like they are the greatest beneficiary of increased linguistic proficiency? If that is the case, wouldn't it also follow that they would be the one to bear the brunt of a lack of said proficiency?

This approach would seem to contradict the common theme of 'national unity through language', where the nation is hurt as a whole by people who cannot speak the majority language. This approach would suggest that there is a collective benefit to increased linguistic proficiency, which would also suggest the cost should be borne by the collective.

What do you think?

Do you have any idea who limiting and crippling it is for people like you to have this point of view?

Clearly not, because I can move around and think just fine.

Clearly not, because I can move around and think just fine.

Yes, my point is proven yet again.:rolleyes:

Clearly not, because I can move around and think just fine.

Well, thats subjective, but I guess Im going to have to take your word for it...

*snip*
Know what I mean?
Not really. I specifically asked that people post beyond the merely ideological. If you really can't come up with any practical ways to make your vision a reality, then you aren't of much use here.

Clearly not, because I can move around and think just fine.

You think Muslim is a language.

Not really. I specifically asked that people post beyond the merely ideological. If you really can't come up with any practical ways to make your vision a reality, then you aren't of much use here.

You see Sinuhue, dear, you're trying to reason with someone who thinks Muslim is the language of Pakistan. You are proficient in more than 2 languages, and those who see reason, understand what you're asking. I don't think this is the case of our friend here.

Well, as far as what I think should be done about it...

I think that the US at least can afford to finance study programs for Immigrants to learn English, either at Home or in a class...

maybe to obtain legal permanent residence, or whatever, have to pass a Third or Fourth grade State English Test...

Will it work? probably not, its full of holes, but, I think it would be a good start that one could make improvements on as it goes...

If you come to North America, learn to fucking speak English.

If you go to Russia, learn to fucking speak Russian.

If you move to Pakistan, learn to fucking speak Muslim.

This leniency given to all the bastards moving into our respective countries is just ridiculous. I get sick and tired of seeing shit where I live, Arizona.

It's America, we got here first, we speak English, we don't have to conform to speaking Spanish.

But I mean, I wouldn't expect everyone to speak English to me if I moved to Korea. I would learn Korean because they're the ones letting me in and calling the shots.

Know what I mean?

When did "Muslim" become a language?

Also, I think you might learn a bit about your own history before making a fool of yourself online. English most certainly wasn't the first language spoken in Arizona. It wasn't even the second.

Not really. I specifically asked that people post beyond the merely ideological. If you really can't come up with any practical ways to make your vision a reality, then you aren't of much use here.

Gotchya.

I don't know. It would make sense for the government to check on the immigrants every few months or so and see how their language development is coming along.

OF course, they would need some sort of incentive, like maybe a small amount of money or gift cards to a large chain like Wal Mart or Target.

The government could just do this and give them their citizenship tests after two or three years (I don't know, I only speak English)

That makes sense to me. If they fail, they have to try again for citizenship after 6 months so they can see how they failed the language test and where they can improve.

What if this ends up setting immigrants up for failure?

Let's say the 'breadwinner' of the home makes the effort to learn the language in order to obtain gainful employment. That's a cost in both time and money that could be borne, assuming the program was at-cost. Nonetheless, as pointed out in the OP, what about the person caring for children or elderly relations? It may not be feasible economically or otherwise for that person to gain any sort of proficiency even if they could afford the flat cost of the program (absent child care, transportation costs etc). What can be done in this very common situation?

You make a valid point there. I would not have a problem with a program where they could apply for special dispensation in order to attend at a less-than-at-cost option in the case of hardship, or perhaps an interest-free government loan to take the program.

In addition, couldn't many of these classes be done online in the event that the person does have to stay at home? Naturally, the person would have to afford internet access somehow, but that's getting cheaper and cheaper.

Also, is the argument for the cost being borne by the immigrant something like they are the greatest beneficiary of increased linguistic proficiency? If that is the case, wouldn't it also follow that they would be the one to bear the brunt of a lack of said proficiency?

That's correct.

This approach would seem to contradict the common theme of 'national unity through language', where the nation is hurt as a whole by people who cannot speak the majority language. This approach would suggest that there is a collective benefit to increased linguistic proficiency, which would also suggest the cost should be borne by the collective.

What do you think?

Hmm, well, the community as a whole is harmed by the population that can't speak the language, however, it is my belief that the individual is harmed more. However, my reasoning for having the immigrant pay for it at an at-cost basis has more to do with fiscal responsibility than for who's bearing the brunt of the difficulty.

In addition, I've always felt a person who's paying for their schooling is going to put more effort into it - so they can learn it, be there less time, and spend less money.

If you come to North America, learn to fucking speak English.

If you go to Russia, learn to fucking speak Russian.

If you move to Pakistan, learn to fucking speak Muslim.

This leniency given to all the bastards moving into our respective countries is just ridiculous. I get sick and tired of seeing shit where I live, Arizona.

It's America, we got here first, we speak English, we don't have to conform to speaking Spanish.

But I mean, I wouldn't expect everyone to speak English to me if I moved to Korea. I would learn Korean because they're the ones letting me in and calling the shots.

Know what I mean?

The various amerindians disagree.

So do the scandinavians, spanish, and dutch, for that matter.

You see Sinuhue, dear, you're trying to reason with someone who thinks Muslim is the language of Pakistan. You are proficient in more than 2 languages, and those who see reason, understand what you're asking. I don't think this is the case of our friend here.

So are you in love with this woman to validate her so much like that?

When did "Muslim" become a language?

Also, I think you might learn a bit about your own history before making a fool of yourself online. English most certainly wasn't the first language spoken in Arizona. It wasn't even the second.

Psh, History didnt start til 'Merika took over, duh! lol...

I think an important aspect of the article you quoted is that this proficiency in one or the other (or both) of the official languages only becomes important once the immigrant seeks citizenship.
I'm not entirely sure on the facts there, but I believe this implies that the immigrant in question has to have lived in the country for a certain number of years, is that correct?
In this case, I don't find it altogether unreasonable to expect a certain level of language capability. I don't see multiculturalism working when different ethnicities just live side by side, but are still isolated by their languages. On the contrary, such isolation is detrimential and dangerous.

I would certainly not expect a new immigrant to be able to communicate in the new language in the first or second year of residence. But if they have lived in the country for a number of years, everyday issues ought not to be a problem language-wise.
I'm not sure how Canada does on offering language courses for immigrants, they are the key to aquiring the language for many.
Excellent points, Cabra.

Once you have permanent residence status (which can take year, two years or more to get) you can apply for citizenship after 5 years.

Permanent residents have certain rights, but not all the rights of a citizen. What Kenney suggests then (no citizenship without a certain vague level of fluency) directly impacts the ability of a person to obtain certain rights.

If we are going to deny people those rights absent any other reason but language proficiency, then there has to be a pressing enough justification to do so.

Right now, I see no evidence that not having such draconian requirements has somehow damaged the fabric of Canadian society. No statistics that link lack of language proficiency to higher rates of crime, to a decrease in public order, political involvement, economic growth etc.

Now language classes offered to new immigrants are partially funded by landing fees, partially with public funds. Basic ESL courses, and only up to a certain level. As pointed out, there are many reasons that these courses are still inaccessible to people; child-care costs and lack of child-care alternatives, transportation costs, purely economic issues such as needing to make a living and not having time to go to school, etc.

I don't think that people WANT to come to a country and not be able to communicate effectively. Rather, I think there are barriers to fluency which we should be working to overcome. THAT is the way we should approach the issue, rather than creating the 'stick' of denial of citizenship (and therefore rights).

So are you in love with this woman to validate her so much like that?

No, I validate her because she's posting sense. You, on the other hand, spout without having an inkling of what you're really posting. Who's at a disadvantage here? Neesika or you? You, through and through. But I value my time, and you... well, you're not worth it.

You see Sinuhue, dear, you're trying to reason with someone who thinks Muslim is the language of Pakistan. You are proficient in more than 2 languages, and those who see reason, understand what you're asking. I don't think this is the case of our friend here.

I was summarising the point of the thread, just in case he missed it (he did).

So are you in love with this woman to validate her so much like that?


Seriously, have you never heard of Urdu ?

This leniency given to all the bastards moving into our respective countries is just ridiculous. I get sick and tired of seeing shit where I live, Arizona.
poop and scope.


It's America, we got here first, we speak English,
You sure 'bout that?
we don't have to conform to speaking Spanish.
How are they making you conform?
But I mean, I wouldn't expect everyone to speak English to me if I moved to Korea. I would learn Korean because they're the ones letting me in and calling the shots.
How long do you think it'd take you to learn? How many languages to you speak? How old were you when you learned them? How long did it take you? How well do you know them?

I was summarising the point of the thread, just in case he missed it (he did).

Yes, he did.

Gotchya.

I don't know. It would make sense for the government to check on the immigrants every few months or so and see how their language development is coming along.

OF course, they would need some sort of incentive, like maybe a small amount of money or gift cards to a large chain like Wal Mart or Target.

The government could just do this and give them their citizenship tests after two or three years (I don't know, I only speak English)

That makes sense to me. If they fail, they have to try again for citizenship after 6 months so they can see how they failed the language test and where they can improve.

Okay, so regular fluency checks, and incentives for good learners?

What about the actual learning itself? How would that look? Would there be government provided classes, or would the learning be informal? Rosetta Stone offered at the border for free?

Also what level of English fluency do you think new immigrants should obtain before getting citizenship?

No, I validate her because she's posting sense. You, on the other hand, spout without having an inkling of what you're really posting. Who's at a disadvantage here? Neesika or you? You, through and through. But I value my time, and you... well, you're not worth it.
Well I suppose I can only expect another arbitrary sense of favoritism from someone such as you. It's a lot easier to sympathize with someone when you think they're right, even when they're clearly wrong.

But hey, I'm not worth it, so whatever...

So are you in love with this woman to validate her so much like that?

I'm awfully loveable.

If we are going to deny people those rights absent any other reason but language proficiency, then there has to be a pressing enough justification to do so.

Right now, I see no evidence that not having such draconian requirements has somehow damaged the fabric of Canadian society. No statistics that link lack of language proficiency to higher rates of crime, to a decrease in public order, political involvement, economic growth etc.


I agree for the most part, however there is a pressing concern for learning the majority Language...

It became most apparent down here with the influx of migrant construction workers following Katrina...

Most of them spoke only Spanish, while not necessarily a problem in and of itself, when it came to emergency situations requiring Police, Ambulance, Fire dept...etc...it did become a bit of a problem when they couldnt describe the situation...


not to mention, my aforementioned problems at work taking their calls, lol...

I'm awfully loveable.

:fluffle::fluffle:

I think fluency in a common language carries with it it's own rewards as does fluency in second and third languages. I further think that deliberate disdain toward learning a common language carries with it it's own penalties and I see no reason why a government has a responsibility to lessen those penalties(to a point). However, I agree that the importance of access and not just availability to language courses should not be underestimated.

:fluffle::fluffle:

for a duck with cat ears on.

I'm awfully loveable.

:fluffle:

Well I suppose I can only expect another arbitrary sense of favoritism from someone such as you. It's a lot easier to sympathize with someone when you think they're right, even when they're clearly wrong.

But hey, I'm not worth it, so whatever...

You think Muslim is a language.

Excellent points, Cabra.

Once you have permanent residence status (which can take year, two years or more to get) you can apply for citizenship after 5 years.

Permanent residents have certain rights, but not all the rights of a citizen. What Kenney suggests then (no citizenship without a certain vague level of fluency) directly impacts the ability of a person to obtain certain rights.

If we are going to deny people those rights absent any other reason but language proficiency, then there has to be a pressing enough justification to do so.

Right now, I see no evidence that not having such draconian requirements has somehow damaged the fabric of Canadian society. No statistics that link lack of language proficiency to higher rates of crime, to a decrease in public order, political involvement, economic growth etc.

Now language classes offered to new immigrants are partially funded by landing fees, partially with public funds. Basic ESL courses, and only up to a certain level. As pointed out, there are many reasons that these courses are still inaccessible to people; child-care costs and lack of child-care alternatives, transportation costs, purely economic issues such as needing to make a living and not having time to go to school, etc.

I don't think that people WANT to come to a country and not be able to communicate effectively. Rather, I think there are barriers to fluency which we should be working to overcome. THAT is the way we should approach the issue, rather than creating the 'stick' of denial of citizenship (and therefore rights).

I'm somewhat in two minds about this... on the one hand, I do agree that denying citizenship just based on language skill seems excessive.
On the other hand, gaining citizenship of a nation without being able to communicate in everyday situations in one of the official languages of the country seems surreal.

Is there a test immigrants need to take before gaining citizenship, as I believe there is in the US?

Also, the suggestion has been made to make language courses available online. I think it's not even necessary to go that far, issueing something on CD, tape, DVD, or CD-ROM might very well be enough. I don't think there are altogether that many people living in Canada for over 5 years without DVD player ;)
In addition, the live language courses and tests could be localised as much as possible, reducing the cost of transport. And I don't see why there couldn't be simultaneous courses for parents and children? And if the children are still toddlers, why not bring them along to class?

Well I suppose I can only expect another arbitrary sense of favoritism from someone such as you. It's a lot easier to sympathize with someone when you think they're right, even when they're clearly wrong.

Favoritism... why, because I understand the OP and you do not? Because I value someone who knows more languages than... oh, right, than you? You clearly cannot see any sense into this, you're in America, you speak English only and have no place for other languages. Please, how can I take someone who thinks Muslim is a language seriously? How can I take someone who clearly has no clue about the OP seriously?

Your first post was a great presentation letter. Next!

You think Muslim is a language.

Jihad! Ji had Jihad ji ji had Jihad. Jihadi ji had Jihad?

My humour is weak with a hangover.

Jihad! Ji had Jihad ji ji had Jihad. Jihadi ji had Jihad?

My humour is weak with a hangover.

Derka, Derka? Mohamma-Jihad?

I'm awfully loveable.

*vouches for that*

Favoritism... why, because I understand the OP and you do not? Because I value someone who knows more languages than... oh, right, than you? You clearly cannot see any sense into this, you're in America, you speak English only and have no place for other languages. Please, how can I take someone who thinks Muslim is a language seriously? How can I take someone who clearly has no clue about the OP seriously?

Your first post was a great presentation letter. Next!
I don't think this really hinges on the fact that I think Muslim is a language (which it is, I have muslim friends to prove it). It's just that you jumped the gun at the first chance and now it's like Neesika is your ego-stroking buddy. I've already responded to the OP in a sensible manner, but I suppose you were too busy ogling Neesika's posts and complimenting them to notice that. But hey, you know, favoritism...

I'm not sure how expensive learning a languge is. I recently picked up one of those book/cd packs to learn french and it cost me £7. The best thing about them is that a whole family can use one pack to learn.

I don't think this really hinges on the fact that I think Muslim is a language (which it is, I have muslim friends to prove it). It's just that you jumped the gun at the first chance and now it's like Neesika is your ego-stroking buddy. I've already responded to the OP in a sensible manner, but I suppose you were too busy ogling Neesika's posts and complimenting them to notice that. But hey, you know, favoritism...

Hang on, you SERIOUSLY think Muslim is a language????????

I thought that was just a moment of confusion on your part.... :eek:

:fluffle:

Yup, all prickly and ranty and such:D

I don't think this really hinges on the fact that I think Muslim is a language (which it is, I have muslim friends to prove it). It's just that you jumped the gun at the first chance and now it's like Neesika is your ego-stroking buddy. I've already responded to the OP in a sensible manner, but I suppose you were too busy ogling Neesika's posts and complimenting them to notice that. But hey, you know, favoritism...

Muslim is not a language, you illiterate person! Hit the books!!! Muslim are those who profess Islam as their religion. Arab, Pakistani, Afghan, Kurdish, these are languages! Oh for fuck's sake!

I don't think this really hinges on the fact that I think Muslim is a language (which it is, I have muslim friends to prove it).

No it isn't (No you don't).

I don't think this really hinges on the fact that I think Muslim is a language (which it is, I have muslim friends to prove it). It's just that you jumped the gun at the first chance and now it's like Neesika is your ego-stroking buddy. I've already responded to the OP in a sensible manner, but I suppose you were too busy ogling Neesika's posts and complimenting them to notice that. But hey, you know, favoritism...

Muslim.

A language.

*shakes self*

Okay anyway, I responded to your more reasonable post, could you please get off this topic and back on that one kthanxbai.

I don't think this really hinges on the fact that I think Muslim is a language (which it is, I have muslim friends to prove it). It's just that you jumped the gun at the first chance and now it's like Neesika is your ego-stroking buddy. I've already responded to the OP in a sensible manner, but I suppose you were too busy ogling Neesika's posts and complimenting them to notice that. But hey, you know, favoritism...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Muslim+Language&go=Go

No page with that title exists.

Either your friends are bullshitting you, or there are simply not enough speakers to merit even a Wikipedia article...

Besides, Why would I bother ogling Neesika's posts, when hers are are correct?...

How am I supposed to argue and demean that? Honestly :rolleyes:

If you come to North America, learn to fucking speak English.

Or perhaps one of the huge array of other languages spoken in North America which would be just as useful.

If you go to Russia, learn to fucking speak Russian.

And ignore the fact that are a huge amount of other languages spoken within Russia and the Russian Federation ?


This leniency given to all the bastards moving into our respective countries is just ridiculous. I get sick and tired of seeing shit where I live, Arizona.

Wasn't Arizona until relatively recently a majority Amerindian speaking state ? Wouldn't that mean that we English speakers are "the bastards" in question who are being shown some imaginary "leniency" ?

Seriously get real. LOL

It's America, we got here first, we speak English, we don't have to conform to speaking Spanish.

Who's we ?

But I mean, I wouldn't expect everyone to speak English to me if I moved to Korea. I would learn Korean because they're the ones letting me in and calling the shots.


I think we could probably safely agree that whether you learnt Korean or not no body would really want to talk to you. At least not if your as obnoxious as this in real life.

Muslim is not a language, you illiterate person! Hit the books!!! Muslim are those who profess Islam as their religion. Arab, Pakistani, Afghan, Kurdish, these are languages! Oh for fuck's sake!

Actually Arabic, Urdu, Pashto, Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Balochi and Kurdish, these are languages :p

Derka, Derka? Mohamma-Jihad?

Derka, Jihadi Jihad, Mohamma-Derka-Jihad. Jihad!

OKAY PEOPLES! Back on topic! *cracks whip*

Actually Arabic, Urdu, Pashto, Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Balochi and Kurdish, these are languages :p

My point.

Gods, I lost it. My apologies to the rest of sensible NSG for my un-lady like manners.:$

OKAY PEOPLES! Back on topic! *cracks whip*

Derka?

This leniency given to all the bastards moving into our respective countries is just ridiculous. I get sick and tired of seeing shit where I live, Arizona.

It's America, we got here first, we speak English, we don't have to conform to speaking Spanish.

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/national_language.jpg

:D

I don't think this really hinges on the fact that I think Muslim is a language (which it is, I have muslim friends to prove it). It's just that you jumped the gun at the first chance and now it's like Neesika is your ego-stroking buddy. I've already responded to the OP in a sensible manner, but I suppose you were too busy ogling Neesika's posts and complimenting them to notice that. But hey, you know, favoritism...


You have Muslim friends ? Do you have Christian friends who speak "Christian" or Jewish friends who speak "Jewish" ?

Or do you have Muslim friends who may speak Arabic ( as well as any number of other languages probably ) and Christain friends who speak, well any number of languages, and Jewish friends who may speak Hebrew as well as any number of other languages e.t.c. ?



Edit- Sorry Neesika I didn't see the above post I wouldn't have posted this now had I seen it

Actually Arabic, Urdu, Pashto, Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Balochi and Kurdish, these are languages :p

How interesting, I never knew that Pakistan had a Kurdish speaking community. Are they an immigrant community or have they been in the region for a long time ?

I'm somewhat in two minds about this... on the one hand, I do agree that denying citizenship just based on language skill seems excessive.
On the other hand, gaining citizenship of a nation without being able to communicate in everyday situations in one of the official languages of the country seems surreal.

Is there a test immigrants need to take before gaining citizenship, as I believe there is in the US? Yes, it's fairly basic though, and generally you 'learn to the test'.

Also, the suggestion has been made to make language courses available online. I think it's not even necessary to go that far, issueing something on CD, tape, DVD, or CD-ROM might very well be enough. I don't think there are altogether that many people living in Canada for over 5 years without DVD player ;)
In addition, the live language courses and tests could be localised as much as possible, reducing the cost of transport. And I don't see why there couldn't be simultaneous courses for parents and children? And if the children are still toddlers, why not bring them along to class?

Generally children, once they enter the school system, are not going to have much trouble learning the language. It's the older people who are going to struggle more. First of all, you are assuming some sort of technological fluency if you advocate CD-Rom learning...which again might be more appropriate for younger learners, but not so intuitive for older folks.

Not to mention the issue of different learning styles. Language proficiency is very much tied up into issues of comfort and self-confidence. You need to use it to get better at it, and if someone is chided for speaking poorly (which anecdotally appears to happen more here than if I misspeak overseas, not sure why), it can be a very uncomfortable experience, one that can set a person back in their learning as it undermines their confidence. It's a stressful thing, to be unable to communicate effectively.

We need to approach language learning with more understanding. It is frustrating for adults to have to use 'baby language', but this is precisely what one must do when learning a new language. If a person has never had that experience before though, there needs to be a bit of hand-holding.

*awesome comic*
:D

lmfao, thats great...

Man, Id totally learn Cherokee, I have some Cherokee/Choctaw in me...But, far as I know, there are no textbooks/etc...:(

How interesting, I never knew that Pakistan had a Kurdish speaking community. Are they an immigrant community or have they been in the region for a long time ?

No, I wasn't suggesting Pakistan has a Kurdish speaking community. I was responding to Nanatsu's post, and the bulk of my response was naming languages used in Pakistan...Kurdish was tacked on at the end because it is actually the name of one the language groups Nanatsu referred to.

lmfao, thats great...

Man, Id totally learn Cherokee, I have some Cherokee/Choctaw in me...But, far as I know, there are no textbooks/etc...:(

I'm impressed! I know I'm not able to type (or speak, or sometimes even breath) when I'm having sex...kudos!

No, I wasn't suggesting Pakistan has a Kurdish speaking community. I was responding to Nanatsu's post, and the bulk of my response was naming languages used in Pakistan...Kurdish was tacked on at the end because it is actually the name of one the language groups Nanatsu referred to.


Oh what a shame I was going to go off and have a read about some fascinating Kurdish Pakistani community to discover their doubtless very interesting history :( Oh well. Like you said before back to topic.

I'm impressed! I know I'm not able to type (or speak, or sometimes even breath) when I'm having sex...kudos!

lmao, everyone wants a little Native in them every now and then, :)


I meant Ancestry, lol...

I'm impressed! I know I'm not able to type (or speak, or sometimes even breath) when I'm having sex...kudos!

:eek:

Yay! :D

If you move to Pakistan, learn to fucking speak Muslim.

Muslim?

Generally children, once they enter the school system, are not going to have much trouble learning the language. It's the older people who are going to struggle more. First of all, you are assuming some sort of technological fluency if you advocate CD-Rom learning...which again might be more appropriate for younger learners, but not so intuitive for older folks.

Not to mention the issue of different learning styles.

That's what I was trying to get at, but I think it didn't really get across, sorry.
Everybody has a different approach to learning a language, so offering a variety of ways to learn it could help a lot. For somebody with a computer at home and enough proficiency, a CD-ROM might be the best option. For somebody else, a DVD. Someone else again might want to go for a language teacher and take lessons that way. Horses for courses, so to speak.

Also, I think it's important to try and teach children as much of the common language as possible before they hit school. They will learn once they are in school, sure, but they will essentially have a huge disadvantage over their peers, who only need to tackle maths and writing while the immigrant children need to get over the massive hurdle of learning the language of their teacher first.

Language proficiency is very much tied up into issues of comfort and self-confidence. You need to use it to get better at it, and if someone is chided for speaking poorly (which anecdotally appears to happen more here than if I misspeak overseas, not sure why), it can be a very uncomfortable experience, one that can set a person back in their learning as it undermines their confidence. It's a stressful thing, to be unable to communicate effectively.

I know the feeling very well... it is extremely uncomfortable not being able to communicate in certain situations. If you don't have the language skill, you become unvoluntarily mute almost. I cannot imagine somebody handling such situations daily, it would seriously frustrate and upset me.


We need to approach language learning with more understanding. It is frustrating for adults to have to use 'baby language', but this is precisely what one must do when learning a new language. If a person has never had that experience before though, there needs to be a bit of hand-holding.

Definintely. But I think this is something rather difficult to get across to the general public. After all, the vast majority of them never faced a similar situation, and consequently have little patience or understanding.

Definintely. But I think this is something rather difficult to get across to the general public. After all, the vast majority of them never faced a similar situation, and consequently have little patience or understanding.

Which sort of chaps my ass, since most Canadians at least have had SOME experience with French lessons (or English if they're completely Francophone), and should know how hard it is to take classroom learning and actively apply it.

Also, I get what you were saying about bringing toddlers along now.

Which sort of chaps my ass, since most Canadians at least have had SOME experience with French lessons (or English if they're completely Francophone), and should know how hard it is to take classroom learning and actively apply it.

Also, I get what you were saying about bringing toddlers along now.

Well, yes, but did they ever have to acutally USE that French?
It's quite a different thing to learn something in class, it's only when you're face with a Francophone not able (or willing, possibly, who knows? ;)) to speak English and you urgently having to communicate with him for whatever reason that you realise that what you learned at school is very difficult to actually apply in real life. And I think this kind of experience is something that many people just plain don't get.

Well, yes, but did they ever have to acutally USE that French?
It's quite a different thing to learn something in class, it's only when you're face with a Francophone not able (or willing, possibly, who knows? ;)) to speak English and you urgently having to communicate with him for whatever reason that you realise that what you learned at school is very difficult to actually apply in real life. And I think this kind of experience is something that many people just plain don't get.

Zis is likely true, no real life need to use the language, and the ensuing frustration of not being able to come up with word one to express yourself.

Ok, must take children to the amusement park, I shall be back! Talk amongst yourselves :P

I would say offering something, at least not-for-profit is a good idea for the Government to do. I don't particularly think child care services would be necessary, often immigrants come over with their whole family- in my g/f's case she was basically raised by her grandmother, even though she grew up here and had American friends she didn't know much English until she started school, and even then it took awhile. Personally, I think the key is not allowing people to be isolated in their day to day life. However it would be hard to require people to speak English, or live in certain areas- I couldn't agree with those things, so I'm not sure how you can get immigrants interact on a day to day level with citizens. A possible solution would be to require employers to have a certain number of English speakers that work with immigrants. Perhaps another good step (probably something that has been done already) would be to try to ensure that at least a portion of any community can speak English, from there the language could spread. I guess what I'm proposing is coming to the immigrant areas and holding classes in the area, so its more convenient, and advertising that such classes exist.

I'm at a loss to how we could encourage people more without a punishment of types. I guess to make the classes free if they reach a certain proficiency, although that seems unfair to others to pay for the classes.

lmfao, thats great...

Man, Id totally learn Cherokee, I have some Cherokee/Choctaw in me...But, far as I know, there are no textbooks/etc...:(

Here is a basic online Cherokee language course.

http://www.angelfire.com/nj/nativecrafts/language.html
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/cherokee.htm

From the Cherokee Nation on their language

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/LanguageList/Default.aspx

And one can take classes in Cherokee at Northeastern State University in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. You can even get a bachelors degree in Cherokee Education.

http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~lang_lit/Index_files/page0002.htm

Here is a basic online Cherokee language course.

http://www.angelfire.com/nj/nativecrafts/language.html
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/cherokee.htm

And one can take classes in Cherokee at Northeastern State University in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. You can even get a bachelors degree in Cherokee Education.

http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~lang_lit/Index_files/page0002.htm

The second one seems like it might be useful....The first one just doesnt make sense...


It is pretty cool that you can get a Degree in it, it isnt offered in MS to my knowledge...

If I were you, I'd refuse to do business with anyone that didn't speak Cree. Learn the language or go back to England, immigrants!

One resource I think is helpful but under-utilized is your local library (or, at least, my local library). My city has large immigrant populations from all over the world, and our library has a lot of audio, visual and textual resources for learning English (or other languages) that can be checked out or listened to/watched at the library, for people who may not have TVs or computers. The library also offers free or very affordable classes and reading programs for kids, so that parents can have a little free time to use the resources and know their kids are safe AND learning.

I know some churches also offer resources, which again helps because children can accompany parents or go to Sunday school for care.

Actually Arabic, Urdu, Pashto, Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Balochi and Kurdish, these are languages :p

Not to drag out the hijack, but I think it's really important for people--mostly English-only speakers--to realize and really understand how MANY different languages are out there, and how tied to culture and region and religion they are, and how English, while probably the most widely-spoken, is not inherently special just because they speak it.

I also think people who are proficient in multiple languages are hugely under-recognized. I have had students at age five that are fluent not only in English, but also in their home language of Farsi, Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati, Dogri, Mandarin, Tongan or Spanish. I have a kid whose parents speak fluent English, Dogri and German--how many natural-born U.S. citizens are proficient in three such different languages? Of course, these parents are professionals who have the time, money and education to excel at these languages, which is what more of our immigrant population needs.

*space conservation snip*

Although a little OT, does that mean that you werent laid off? How did the Protest go?

It takes a minimum of seven years to learn a language fluently. And some native speakers never manage it in a lifetime.

It takes a minimum of seven years to learn a language fluently. And some native speakers never manage it in a lifetime.

Untrue.

It is entirely possible to fluently master any number of languages very quickly, but only using the study tech developed by L. Ron Hubbard.

Unlock the potential of your mind, Katganistan.

Or, in German: Merken shnirken gabirken fershcniggle, Katganistan.

French: Le blah de bleh le fruh pe frooh, Katganistan.

Sign language: *crosses arms, makes "OK" hand gesture, does "hear is the church, here is the steeple" hand motions, grabs crotch, sticks hand out in "K" shape strangely similar to gang sign*

See? Scientology. What the world needs.

Untrue.

It is entirely possible to fluently master any number of languages very quickly, but only using the study tech developed by L. Ron Hubbard.

Unlock the potential of your mind, Katganistan.

Or, in German: Merken shnirken gabirken fershcniggle, Katganistan.

French: Le blah de bleh le fruh pe frooh, Katganistan.

Sign language: *crosses arms, makes "OK" hand gesture, does "hear is the church, here is the steeple" hand motions, grabs crotch, sticks hand out in "K" shape strangely similar to gang sign*

See? Scientology. What the world needs.

Thats all we need, Tom Cruise and the Xenthus playing the Elementary Circuit....

Sign language: *crosses arms, makes "OK" hand gesture, does "hear is the church, here is the steeple" hand motions, grabs crotch, sticks hand out in "K" shape strangely similar to gang sign*

See? Scientology. What the world needs.

That seems more like "Signtology" to me...

I thought that was banned in the US after that unfortunate incident in the 80's that resulted in the creation of Michael Jackson?

Although a little OT, does that mean that you werent laid off? How did the Protest go?

Oh, no, I was laid off--my job just doesn't actually end until school gets out in June. They're just required to give us our pink slips by March 13.

Protest went as protests go--nothing really changes, but it's good to get it off your chest so you don't burn down city hall in the dead of night. There were margaritas after.