NationStates Jolt Archive

It's always depressing when I lose a friend to belief in the ZOG, the Illuminati ...or whatever new conspiracy theory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw) is out there at the moment.

By the way, the above video comes with the following description:

The Obama Deception is a hard-hitting film that completely destroys the myth that Barack Obama is working for the best interests of the American people. The Obama phenomenon is a hoax carefully crafted by the captains of the New World Order. He is being pushed as savior in an attempt to con the American people into accepting global slavery. We have reached a critical juncture in the New World Order's plans. and only by exposing the con can we help to save freedom in America. The Obama Deception is not about Left or Right: it's about a One World Government. The international banks plan to loot the people of the United States and turn them into slaves on a Global Plantation. Covered in this film: who Obama works for, what lies he has told, and his real agenda, and how his initial appointments and actions prove he serves the corporate oligarchs, not the American people. If you want to know the facts and cut through all the hype, this is the film for you.


Sigh. How many friends have you lost?

How many friends have you lost?

None in real life, but a few people I used to associate with (and liked) over the Internet came to believe some pretty absurd nonsense about the Bush Administration, Israel, and September 11.

Too many. :(

Most of them to a cargo cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) expecting the world to airlift them another Jesus.

None in real life, but a few people I used to associate with (and liked) over the Internet came to believe some pretty absurd nonsense about the Bush Administration, Israel, and September 11.Yeah but why would they not be friends anymore? Are friends only those which think alike? :tongue:

None. I have lost a few to religion though.

None, but then I can't remember being friends with someone prone to conspiracy theories either.

Pffft, that's no conspiracy, they even lied about him being the first black president. How could we forget about Warren G-G-G-G UNITTT!!? :p

Yeah but why would they not be friends anymore?

I got bored with that corner of the Internet before it got really bad. NSG is actually to blame, in a way....

None in real life, but a few people I used to associate with (and liked) over the Internet came to believe some pretty absurd nonsense about the Bush Administration, Israel, and September 11.

Yeah, that was a big one. Fairly large surge in people I can no longer stand to associate with. There was enough shady shit going on without having to add in the bizarreness...the crazy 911 conspiracies...then posting graphs of how Sarah Palin was actually a jewess (who even uses that word anymore!?) etc. Whenever I tried to talk sense into anyone caught up in this shit, they'd get shifty and paranoid. No doubt they decided I was a jew too.

I can't be friends with stupid people, or people who are willing to be deluded.

I've lost track of a few friends over the years, but I don't think I've lost any to senseless conspiracy theories like that. A good disturbance or two usually shakes them out of any stupor such nonsense generates and forces them to think again. I'm good at causing disturbances. :)

Alex Jones: destroying cherished friendships with slick editing since 1998.

Yeah but why would they not be friends anymore?Are friends only those which think alike? :tongue:

I have a very good friend who is a hardcore Conservative...insanely so by Canadian standards, he is actually a Bush supporter. I remain friends with him despite our massive ideological disagreements because he is an intelligent person with whom I can actually have very interesting conversations. We can treat each other respectfully. We use logic, we back our shit up.

The kind of people who get into massive conspiracy theories tend to avoid things like logic, and create a 'logic' that is so impervious to reality that absolutely everything that seems to contradict the conspiracy becomes PART of the conspiracy.

Sigh. How many friends have you lost?

What because of their beliefs on how the world works, political beliefs and/or religious beliefs?

None whatsoever. But I must say I have never had any friend who holds conspiracy theories true, there maybe a reasonto that.

How many friends have I lost to other reasons? Well quite a few.

The breakdown of human relationships is part of the Bildeberger Foundation's greater plan for world domination. As humanity falls apart, the NWO picks up the fragments.

Deep, eh :D

The breakdown of human relationships is part of the Bildeberger Foundation's greater plan for world domination. As humanity falls apart, the NWO picks up the fragments.

Deep, eh :D

*Breaks friendship* :p

NWO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Worlds_Observer)!? It can't even compete with Hubble! :p

Seriously, though, sometimes sensible people fall off the deep end and become highly religious. It's a huge shame. :(

hey now, didn't i hear that the whole Bush family were part of the Trilateral Commission

because of G-6
and the Skull and Bones secret society?

but then, so was John Kerry, they told me.

maybe the Illuminati don't know how to run things, they must have lost a bundle in the market.

perhaps there is room at the top for a more efficient corps of conspirators! maybe you! maybe me!
nah, maybe just you, i've screwed up my resume too much to fool anybody.

Seriously, though, sometimes sensible people fall off the deep end and become highly religious. It's a huge shame. :(

Do you have an example? I do have one but while we are still friends he relationship has changed but not in a friendship sense if you get my drift.

One that I'm thinking of was a sensible, fairly agnostic fan of Weird Al Yankovic. C'mon, how many Weird Al Yankovic fans suddenly become hardline christians? (aside from him :headbang:)

I stopped visiting a message board because they believed in "Loose Change", and became Anti-Semitic.

One that I'm thinking of was a sensible, fairly agnostic fan of Weird Al Yankovic. C'mon, how many Weird Al Yankovic fans suddenly become hardline christians? (aside from him :headbang:)

Umm, k but why exactly did you stop being friends?

Alex Jones: destroying cherished friendships with slick editing since 1998.

He's the only frequent guest on Coast to Coast I don't like.

-snip-

So I have a question. If there is an Oligarch group that intends to control the world in secret, then...why don't they suppress this video? Why don't they suppress Alex Jones? Why not have him killed?

I mean if I was part of a secretive group, I would squash any mention of my group, but that's just me.

I mean if I was part of a secretive group, I would squash any mention of my group, but that's just me.

If I were, I would let people speculate as much as they want, as long as the mainstream viewed them as a bunch of crazies.

Better to have a subtle hand than a forceful one.

So I have a question. If there is an Oligarch group that intends to control the world in secret, then...why don't they suppress this video? Why don't they suppress Alex Jones? Why not have him killed?

I mean if I was part of a secretive group, I would squash any mention of my group, but that's just me.

But a poorly produced video that sounds like a paranoid rant would be useful cover and could be used to damage the credibility of more legitimate attempts to expose.

If I were part of a secretive group, I'd keep a steady stream of this crap coming out as part of a disinformation campaign.

Aww, dammit. There's no shifty-eyed paranoid smiley. :(

If I were, I would let people speculate as much as they want, as long as the mainstream viewed them as a bunch of crazies.

Better to have a subtle hand than a forceful one.

But a poorly produced video that sounds like a paranoid rant would be useful cover and could be used to damage the credibility of more legitimate attempts to expose.

If I were part of a secretive group, I'd keep a steady stream of this crap coming out as part of a disinformation campaign.

Aww, dammit. There's no shifty-eyed paranoid smiley. :(

Hmm, that is a good point.

OMG! Y'ALL ARE PART OF N.W.O AREN'T YOU! :eek:

Hmm, that is a good point.

OMG! Y'ALL ARE PART OF N.W.O AREN'T YOU! :eek:

That's crazy talk. Hey, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?

OMG! Y'ALL ARE PART OF N.W.O AREN'T YOU! :eek:

See, it doesn't even matter if you know, because no one will believe you.

It takes cleverness to rule the world--cleverness and a sense of proportion.

That's crazy talk. Hey, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?

Why Y.....

*sound of body hitting the floor*

See, it doesn't even matter if you know, because no one will believe you.

It takes cleverness to rule the world--cleverness and a sense of proportion.

Sense of proportion?

That's crazy talk. Hey, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?

What happened to that talk about letting all the information run around and making people look like nuts? I mean, Wilgroves been on NSG for years now, and we all know that unhinges people in some ways.

It's a good thing they never figure out what we're really up to. They keep trying, and some have been closer than others, but they never realize the true grand plan.

It's a good thing they never figure out what we're really up to. They keep trying, and some have been closer than others, but they never realize the true grand plan.

Does it involve Darth Vader and Elmo?

What happened to that talk about letting all the information run around and making people look like nuts? I mean, Wilgroves been on NSG for years now, and we all know that unhinges people in some ways.

People are unhinged by my presence?

....
...
...

Awesome! :D

Does it involve Darth Vader and Elmo?

We only *appear* to be at odds. It keeps the world guessing.

People are unhinged by my presence?

....
...
...

Awesome! :D

Yes Wilgrove. We have photographic evidence of you stealing the hinges of their doors and windows. Clearly you've been on NSG for too long, what with your hinge fetish.

What happened to that talk about letting all the information run around and making people look like nuts? I mean, Wilgroves been on NSG for years now, and we all know that unhinges people in some ways.

True, but I really wanted to chloroform someone. What's the use of being in a cabal if you never get to chloroform anyone?

You know, I'm watching this video, I'm at the halfway point, and I gotta say.

I am surprised Alex Jones haven't somehow tied The Vatican into this. Seems like every other N.O.W. nuts tie The Vatican into it...somehow.

I am infiltrating a conspiracy theory cult and have already identified their leader. And that phrase, 'drinking the kool-aid?' - it's not funny, dudes.

Every time I hear any conspiracies about the NWO, all I can think about is Hulk Hogan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(professional_wrestling)).

http://www.catsandbeer.com/uploads/2007/11/nwo1en.jpg

I don't have friends. I have associates. And we are plotting to take over pretty much every country south of the United States through fanning the flames of the current drug wars by providing the various cartels with everything from assault rifles to cruise missiles and submarines. The next time someone tells you "the South will rise again" be afraid, be very afraid because we are coming for you next. Maybe some of Canadia so we can Canade but not too much because we don't want to catch teh gay.

Does the conspiracy video mention Obama's a Socialist Muslim Bilderberger? Because if it doesn't, that might be considered an improvement in his public perception.

:D

Every time I hear any conspiracies about the NWO, all I can think about is Hulk Hogan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(professional_wrestling)).

http://www.catsandbeer.com/uploads/2007/11/nwo1en.jpg

nWo 4 Life.

Does the conspiracy video mention Obama's a Socialist Muslim Bilderberger? Because if it doesn't, that might be considered an improvement in his public perception.

:D
Mmmm...Bilder-burger. *drools*

It's always depressing when I lose a friend to belief in the ZOG, the Illuminati ...or whatever new conspiracy theory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw) is out there at the moment.

Sigh. How many friends have you lost?Losing my dad to one of the more popular ones in the world.

And in a cute coincidence, a guy approached me at work with the idea that some big change was coming soon (wouldn't be long now), and how that would work in my favour.
He'd said he'd paid everything off and owned everything he had, and i pointed out that he probably still has to pay taxes on something, and in the unfortunate instance of not paying those taxes off, the govt can come along and usurp it and there ain't fuckall he can do about it, which really doesn't seem much like the ownership he'd originally intimated.
He thought for a few seconds, said he "liked me", introduced himself a little more formally, started talking about sermons, took some coffee, talked about Fords, Jeeps and Cavalry, and then ended up leaving at some point while i actually tried to accomplish some work as he talked. He had a "Dragonslayer" armpatch.
I'm not sure if it was a special handshake or not, but it felt weird when he did it. Oh well.

nWo 4 Life.

*plays air-guitar with Championship belt*

WTF is ZOG?

Sigh. How many friends have you lost?

Sadly this is the cost of the internet. Unlimited knowledge, but also unlimited crazy conspiracy Theories.

So I have a question. If there is an Oligarch group that intends to control the world in secret, then...why don't they suppress this video? Why don't they suppress Alex Jones? Why not have him killed?

I mean if I was part of a secretive group, I would squash any mention of my group, but that's just me.The films are known as lesser magick. Power is created from telling the cows what you are going to do to them.

I've lost some to homeopathy and assorted similar nonsense.

I actually had an argument with a friend the other day who claimed that an acquaintance had massive psychological problems, and had therefore slipped a disc. Psychosomatically.
He's had some sessions now, and after talking about it, the disc apparently moved back where it belonged.

On doubting this, I was lectured that there are soooo many things about our bodies we simply do not understand yet. When I replied that while that might be true, the number of things we do know increases daily, I was labled narrow-minded. *sigh*

I've not yet lost a friend to conspiracy theories, but I have lost friends over issues like racism, homophobia, and religious belief. I don't need my friends to all "think like me," but I do have standards; I'm not going to be buying drinks for some jackass who wants to talk about how blacks are to blame for the economy or some shit.

I've seen hardcore conservatives disassociating with fellow hardcore-conservatives when the latter took The Obama Deception seriously.

Who says conspiracy theories only do bad?

Perhaps it might make for an interesting poll question?

Something like, "What would make you end a friendship?"

I don't know if that's a subject that would fit into a poll question, but it might be interesting to see what kind of standards people use. I know some people who won't have friends that are of a different religion, and I know some people who wouldn't end a friendship even if they found out their buddy was a serial killer.

Perhaps it might make for an interesting poll question?

Something like, "What would make you end a friendship?"

I don't know if that's a subject that would fit into a poll question, but it might be interesting to see what kind of standards people use. I know some people who won't have friends that are of a different religion, and I know some people who wouldn't end a friendship even if they found out their buddy was a serial killer.

Good question...
In fairness now, I'm not regarding my friendship with the person I mentioned as over.... but it's not exactly on the same level any more, either.
She thinks of me as small-minded, I think of her as gullible. It's a bit of a dent, I'd say.

Me:"So, if the Americans, as you say, faked the moon landing, why didn't the Russians exposed it as a hoax, thereby achieving a major propagandistic victory?"
Conspiracy dude: "They were BRIBED by the U.S.!"*dramaticstare*
Me:"Yeah, whatever. Discussion is over, go away please."

Good question...
In fairness now, I'm not regarding my friendship with the person I mentioned as over.... but it's not exactly on the same level any more, either.
She thinks of me as small-minded, I think of her as gullible. It's a bit of a dent, I'd say.
For me, friendship requires mutual respect. If I can't respect somebody then I can't really claim to be their friend.

Me:"So, if the Americans, as you say, faked the moon landing, why didn't the Russians exposed it as a hoax, thereby achieving a major propagandistic victory?"
Conspiracy dude: "They were BRIBED by the U.S.!"*dramaticstare*
Me:"Yeah, whatever. Discussion is over, go away please."
I think my problem is that I liked the movie Sneakers, so now any time I talk with conspiracy theorists I end up picturing Dan Aykroyd driving Sidney Poitier crazy...

Mother: Hey, Crease, you on?
Donald Crease: Yeah, I'm on.
Mother: Were you still in C.I.A. in '72?
Donald Crease: Yeah, why?
Mother: Did you know the Deputy Director of Planning was down in Managua, Nicaragua the day before the earthquake?
Donald Crease: Now what are you saying, the C.I.A. caused the Managua earthquake?
Mother: Well, I can't prove it, but...

Also:

Crease: Now what are you saying, the NSA killed Kennedy?
Mother: No, they shot him but they didn't kill him. He's still alive.

that is the best movie ever.

For me, friendship requires mutual respect. If I can't respect somebody then I can't really claim to be their friend.

And that's where conspiracy theories (or occasionally religion, esoterics, etc.) come into play. They can make it rather difficult for me to take the other person fully serious and consquently will impact on respect.
However, unless they turn into a total nutcase, I wouldn't stop calling them friends. Maybe not best friends any more, but quite possibly still people I like to spend time with, and who just are a bit odd in their views on some areas of life.

Yeah but why would they not be friends anymore? Are friends only those which think alike? :tongue:

^This.

The only way someone's beliefs would cost me their friendship is if THEY decided we couldn't be friends anymore. People's ideas and beliefs can change many times over the course of a lifetime. We make friends with people, not their politics.

For me, friendship requires mutual respect. If I can't respect somebody then I can't really claim to be their friend.
This this and this.

For me, friendship requires mutual respect. If I can't respect somebody then I can't really claim to be their friend.

How much of your respect for someone is based on their opinions and beliefs?

How much of your respect for someone is based on their opinions and beliefs?

For some, if you're not part of the Cylon hive-mind, you can't be friends.

How much of your respect for someone is based on their opinions and beliefs?
Most of it. The only other things I can think of that would factor in would be how they arrived at those opinions and beliefs, and how they choose to act on those opinions and beliefs.

How much of your respect for someone is based on their opinions and beliefs?

General population, or people I regard as friends?

Most of it. The only other things I can think of that would factor in would be how they arrived at those opinions and beliefs, and how they choose to act on those opinions and beliefs.

So, you're really a Cylon.

None. I have lost a few to religion though.

Religion is a Conspiracy Theory for all practical purposes.


The answer is yes, I'm insane but have no room in my circle of friends for a nutcase.

So, you're really a Cylon.

Right.... cause you only have friends around you to disagree 24/7 and shout at each other....

I have a friend who believes persons in the Bush administration planned 9/11. Though he strongly supported Obama over McCain (and I doubt he regrets this), he now believes Obama to be merely a puppet, and that we are never going to leave Iraq because the war was a pretext for establishing a base.

It never really affected my relationship with him, and I think he is right on a few things as far as concepts go, if not the details.

Right.... cause you only have friends around you to disagree 24/7 and shout at each other....
I'm fascinated by the number of people who think that there are two options:

1) Never evaluate or judge your friends' opinions/beliefs/values in any way shape or form

or

2) Refuse to have any friends who disagree with you about anything.

I'm fascinated by the number of people who think that there are two options:

1) Never evaluate or judge your friends' opinions/beliefs/values in any way shape or form

or

2) Refuse to have any friends who disagree with you about anything.

Same here.
And I can't help wondering what kind of a circle of friends these people have.

I'm fascinated by the number of people who think that there are two options:

1) Never evaluate or judge your friends' opinions/beliefs/values in any way shape or form

or

2) Refuse to have any friends who disagree with you about anything.

I have plenty of friends who disagree with me but the ones who let their lives be consumed by stupidity and that constantly out of the blue bring up the Second Shooter in the JKF assassination or how the US faked the lunar landing day in and day out, and won't shut up about the christian/jihadist/atheist/japanese/communist/capitalist/corporate/government/foreign/united nations/internet/news media/youfuckingnameitafterthis conspiracy are not my friends much longer.

Most of it. The only other things I can think of that would factor in would be how they arrived at those opinions and beliefs, and how they choose to act on those opinions and beliefs.

For me, actions are a more important thing. I would hate many persons I know if I judged them on the basis of their beliefs.

X-Files was awesome. I like the cigarette smoking guy. The truth is out there and that truth is...There is no conspiracy it is just plain old stupidity, poor insight, planning, bad luck etc.

Brings to mind the Simpsons.

Same here.
And I can't help wondering what kind of a circle of friends these people have.

I can't help wondering how it is POSSIBLE to disagree with your friends if you never evaluate or judge their opinions/beliefs/values/etc. I guess maybe some people insist on keeping all disagreements safely hypothetical?

"Well, Bill, if somebody were, in theory, to hold the opinion that Star Trek is better than Star Wars, then, in that hypothetical situation, they'd be a freaking moron."
"I think somebody could, hypothetically, argue the opposite, Mary. That opinion might very well be valid, and I could see somebody potentially arguing that Star Wars is a festering pile of Lucascrap."

Zzzz...

General population, or people I regard as friends?

I meant friends, but I'd be interested in your reply to both.

I'm fascinated by the number of people who think that there are two options:

1) Never evaluate or judge your friends' opinions/beliefs/values in any way shape or form

or

2) Refuse to have any friends who disagree with you about anything.

There needn't be a dichotomy. More on that in a sec... Your comment below seems to fall under your 2) above, so can I get you to clarify?

Most of it. The only other things I can think of that would factor in would be how they arrived at those opinions and beliefs, and how they choose to act on those opinions and beliefs.

See, my respect for someone is based on a LOT of factors but if we're talking just about my respect for their way of thinking, that's based more on HOW they arrived at their opinion than what their belief actually is.

For instance, I have a close friend who is as left wing moonbat liberal as a lot of you guys, and he knows exactly where I stand politically as well. I respect him as a person AND I respect his mind because while I think he's drawn many wrong conclusions, I know he THINKS about things very carefully and tries to be objective. He extends the same to me. We disagree because we're starting from very different worldviews, and so when we debate we do it for fun, not to change minds. I'd hate to only have friends who agreed with me. That would get boring.

On the other hand, my dad is also a lefty moonbat South American Socialist. (No really. He's actually a Socialist.) I have much less respect for his logic process because he doesn't really have one. He just mostly parrots what he reads in media that says what he likes to hear. We debate for fun on issues where he actually DOES think about stuff (like the Israel-Palestine thing, Illegal Immigration, etc.) but again we have different worldviews that have led us to different conclusions.

But I still love him :) and respect him as a person, and I wouldn't trade him for anything as my dad.

I have plenty of friends who disagree with me but the ones who let their lives be consumed by stupidity and that constantly out of the blue bring up the Second Shooter in the JKF assassination or how the US faked the lunar landing day in and day out, and won't shut up about the christian/jihadist/atheist/japanese/communist/capitalist/corporate/government/foreign/united nations/internet/news media/youfuckingnameitafterthis conspiracy are not my friends much longer.

I always thought there was a conspiracy with the JFK assassination until I saw this recreation of the events on TLC.

Rifle
6.5 x 52 mm Italian Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle with a six-round magazine
Serial number C2766
Western Cartridge Co. ammunition with a 160 grain (10.37 g) round nose bullet
Side-mounted Ordnance Optics 4 x 18 telescopic sight

They had several expert marksmen and they had trouble getting of the correct number of shots and hitting the target but it was repeatable. Lee Harvey Oswald must have been a really good shot. He was a marine so I guess it is possible. The only thing that is kind of annoying is why all the secrecy?

X-Files was awesome. I like the cigarette smoking guy. The truth is out there and that truth is...There is no conspiracy it is just plain old stupidity, poor insight, planning, bad luck etc.

Brings to mind the Simpsons.

Can I sig you?

Can I sig you?

Sure.

Sure.

Thankya

For me, actions are a more important thing. I would hate many persons I know if I judged them on the basis of their beliefs.
This only makes sense if you think that your actions and the actions of your friends are never based on your opinions, beliefs, or values.

Which is possible, I suppose, but kinda weird.

I meant friends, but I'd be interested in your reply to both.

...


See, my respect for someone is based on a LOT of factors but if we're talking just about my respect for their way of thinking, that's based more on HOW they arrived at their opinion than what their belief actually is.

For instance, I have a close friend who is as left wing moonbat liberal as a lot of you guys, and he knows exactly where I stand politically as well. I respect him as a person AND I respect his mind because while I think he's drawn many wrong conclusions, I know he THINKS about things very carefully and tries to be objective. He extends the same to me. We disagree because we're starting from very different worldviews, and so when we debate we do it for fun, not to change minds. I'd hate to only have friends who agreed with me. That would get boring.

On the other hand, my dad is also a lefty moonbat South American Socialist. (No really. He's actually a Socialist.) I have much less respect for his logic process because he doesn't really have one. He just mostly parrots what he reads in media that says what he likes to hear. We debate for fun on issues where he actually DOES think about stuff (like the Israel-Palestine thing, Illegal Immigration, etc.) but again we have different worldviews that have led us to different conclusions.


I think you summarised that pretty well yourself there.

I generally have respect for everyone.
However, I do tend to take the liberty of disliking people who parrot opinions without thinking about them. That doesn't mean that I will then afford them less respect than the general public, but I will inevitable not respect them enough to be friends with them.

See, my respect for someone is based on a LOT of factors but if we're talking just about my respect for their way of thinking, that's based more on HOW they arrived at their opinion than what their belief actually is.

For instance, I have a close friend who is as left wing moonbat liberal as a lot of you guys, and he knows exactly where I stand politically as well. I respect him as a person AND I respect his mind because while I think he's drawn many wrong conclusions, I know he THINKS about things very carefully and tries to be objective. He extends the same to me. We disagree because we're starting from very different worldviews, and so when we debate we do it for fun, not to change minds. I'd hate to only have friends who agreed with me. That would get boring.

On the other hand, my dad is also a lefty moonbat South American Socialist. (No really. He's actually a Socialist.) I have much less respect for his logic process because he doesn't really have one. He just mostly parrots what he reads in media that says what he likes to hear. We debate for fun on issues where he actually DOES think about stuff (like the Israel-Palestine thing, Illegal Immigration, etc.) but again we have different worldviews that have led us to different conclusions.

But I still love him :) and respect him as a person, and I wouldn't trade him for anything as my dad.
So you work pretty much the same way that I do.

I think you summarised that pretty well yourself there.

So you work pretty much the same way that I do.

Coolies

Having people close to you that you disagree with, I find, is good for keeping you on your toes and challenging your assertions. This is a good thing.

Coolies

Having people close to you that you disagree with, I find, is good for keeping you on your toes and challenging your assertions. This is a good thing.

Yes, but that's what family is for. Not friends. ;)

Logic! The Ultimate Conspiracy!

This only makes sense if you think that your actions and the actions of your friends are never based on your opinions, beliefs, or values.

Opinions are generally positively correlated with actions, but not always. Nixon is the best example. He befriended Christian fanatics, but by his own admission he did not believe in the resurrection of Christ or that Christ was God's son. He was also racist, but he promoted more integration and did more than any Republican in favor of Affirmative Action. He called himself a "moderate conservative", but ended the draft, cut military spending, and proposed a bill that would increase welfare spending by $4,000,000,000 (the bill was turned-down because his fellow Republicans called it the "mega-dole"); he also created the EPA.

History is replete with individuals with repulsive beliefs who help the world, and others, who believe beautiful things, while sitting on their hands.

Which is possible, I suppose, but kinda weird.

You phrased it as an absolute.

Opinions are generally positively correlated with actions, but not always. Nixon is the best example. He befriended Christian fanatics, but by his own admission he did not believe in the resurrection of Christ or that Christ was God's son. He was also racist, but he promoted more integration and did more than any Republican in favor of Affirmative Action. He called himself a "moderate conservative", but ended the draft, cut military spending, and proposed a bill that would increase welfare spending by $4,000,000,000 (the bill was turned-down because his fellow Republicans called it the "mega-dole"); he also created the EPA.

History is replete with individuals with repulsive beliefs who help the world, and others, who believe beautiful things, while sitting on their hands.



You phrased it as an absolute.

In programming circles, the mutability of Nixon is known as "The Nixon Diamond", intended to show major weaknesses in rule engines.

He was also a Quaker who bombed Cambodia.

In programming circles, the mutability of Nixon is known as "The Nixon Diamond", intended to show major weaknesses in rule engines.

I am making a study of morality, beliefs, and philosophy; programming has nothing to do with it.

He was also a Quaker who bombed Cambodia.

Cambodia was being bombed long before Nixon attained office (by the way, the government of Cambodia secretly encouraged the U.S. to do this); he was only a Quaker in name, as I just pointed-out--he did not believe Christ was the son of God.

Opinions are generally positively correlated with actions, but not always. Nixon is the best example. He befriended Christian fanatics, but by his own admission he did not believe in the resurrection of Christ or that Christ was God's son. He was also racist, but he promoted more integration and did more than any Republican in favor of Affirmative Action. He called himself a "moderate conservative", but ended the draft, cut military spending, and proposed a bill that would increase welfare spending by $4,000,000,000 (the bill was turned-down because his fellow Republicans called it the "mega-dole"); he also created the EPA.

History is replete with individuals with repulsive beliefs who help the world, and others, who believe beautiful things, while sitting on their hands.

I think you're confusing PROFESSED opinions with ACTUAL opinions.

Nixon's actions make perfect sense and are quite consistent with his actual values and motivations. You just have to know the difference between what a person claims to value and what they actually value...the two are often quite different.

I stand by my absolute.

I think you're confusing PROFESSED opinions with ACTUAL opinions.

Nixon's actions make perfect sense and are quite consistent with his actual values and motivations. You just have to know the difference between what a person claims to value and what they actually value...the two are often quite different.

I stand by my absolute.

So you do not think Nixon was really as racist as he sounded on tape? perhaps they were just emotional rantings devoid of actual belief?

So you do not think Nixon was really as racist as he sounded on tape? perhaps they were just emotional rantings devoid of actual belief?

Yeah, what are the odds...

Yeah, what are the odds...

:p You were the one bringing-up programming; devise an algorithm.

:p You were the one bringing-up programming; devise an algorithm.

It's kind of like discovering that under Hitler, the Autobahns were built and the trains ran on time...

Yes, but that's what family is for. Not friends. ;)

That sort of assumes the family members in question are worth debating, doesn't it? ;) (Or that they disagree)

I don't know about you but my family is pretty dull for debating. My dad is the only exception and he lives on another continent :(

It's kind of like discovering that under Hitler, the Autobahns were built and the trains ran on time...

Are you comparing Nixon to Hitler?

Are you comparing Nixon to Hitler?

Only in the sense that many people vilify them, and are unware that by some chance, some good things were done by each of them.

Only in the sense that many people vilify them, and are unware that by some chance, some good things were done by each of them.

Hitler did do many good things, which are eclipsed a billion-fold by all the deaths he was responsible for.

Nixon did better things than Hitler, and while his underhanded dealings are regrettable, they hardly rule-out his triumphs. Political nastiness was the order of the day (LBJ had Nixon's plane bugged and JFK used more wiretaps than Nixon), Tricky Dick just took it too far.

Only in the sense that many people vilify them, and are unware that by some chance, some good things were done by each of them.

It's a plain cost-benefit calculation : If the cost placed on society by the individual in question outweighs the benefits put in place by him, feel free to vilify.

In the case of Hitler, the balance is particularly screwed : Millions of deaths for some kilometers of roads and accurate timetables just isn't good politics.

It's a plain cost-benefit calculation : If the cost placed on society by the individual in question outweighs the benefits put in place by him, feel free to vilify.

In the case of Hitler, the balance is particularly screwed : Millions of deaths for some kilometers of roads and accurate timetables just isn't good politics.

^This.

I haven't lost any friends to conspiracy theories. One of my closest friends is a diehard conservative, but he at least has a functioning brain, and doesn't believe any conspiracy theories.

There are some conspiracy theories that would get me to end a friendship quicker than others. Anything concerning the Jews, Israel, or the Holocaust would do the job pretty quickly.

I used to be into Erich von Däniken's books (= Aliens everywhere) when I was fifteen years or so. I guess it's more excusable when your'e still an easy-impresable youngster. Some conspiracy theories can be fun (there's a joke conspiracy theory in Germany, stating that the city of Bielefeld doesn't exist, and anyone who says otherwise belongs to THEM), as long as you don't take them to seriously.
Also, I think it's a safe bet to say that the more global and ancient the subject of a conspiracy theory becomes, the less likely it is to be something else than total bullshit. Some of the small-scaled ones sound rather plausible. I mean, basically you could count any case of nepotism or cartel arrangement as a conspiracy of sorts.

It's kind of like discovering that under Hitler, the Autobahns were built
Except that they weren't. The Autobahns were planned and partly completed years before the Nazis took over.

I haven't lost any friends to conspiracy theories. One of my closest friends is a diehard conservative, but he at least has a functioning brain, and doesn't believe any conspiracy theories.

There are some conspiracy theories that would get me to end a friendship quicker than others. Anything concerning the Jews, Israel, or the Holocaust would do the job pretty quickly.

I hope it does not offend you, but I believe many of the Holocaust figures reported by the Russians are exaggerated (not to deny that millions of innocents were still killed).

In the case of Hitler, the balance is particularly screwed : Millions of deaths for some kilometers of roads and accurate timetables just isn't good politics.

But that was the entire history of 19th century capitalism. Just with rails and dead workers instead of religious minorities.

It's a plain cost-benefit calculation : If the cost placed on society by the individual in question outweighs the benefits put in place by him, feel free to vilify
This is one of the many aspects of Neo Nazi world view that I'm unable to grasp. Even if you are an selfish ethnocentrist and say that you don't give a damn about what was brought over the rest of Europe, and that only Germany counts, shouldn't you judge somebody by the end results of his work, instead of giving him credit for some random "achievement" half-way into his reign time? Take any picture of Germany in the year 1945 and tell me how Nazi rule is supposed to have been a progress in any kind of way.
"Hey look! Under all these smouldering ruins, shell craters and piles od dead civilians, there are highways that weren't there before! Yaaay!!!"

But that was the entire history of 19th century capitalism. Just with rails and dead workers instead of religious minorities.

How much better things could have been!

http://gaslight.mtroyal.ca/images/TBEEGOLD.gif

Madness
Madness does not always howl. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "hey, is there room in your head for one more?" www.despair.com

So I have a question. If there is an Oligarch group that intends to control the world in secret, then...why don't they suppress this video? Why don't they suppress Alex Jones? Why not have him killed?
He's a disinfo agent ffs.

Every time I hear any conspiracies about the NWO, all I can think about is Hulk Hogan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(professional_wrestling)).

http://www.catsandbeer.com/uploads/2007/11/nwo1en.jpg

Damn it, you got to it before I could. I don't know, I'd think Obama, of all people, would against turning anyone into slaves on a plantation. Plus, in a six page thread on conspiracies, how come no-one's mentioned David Ickes and his snake people yet?

I hope it does not offend you, but I believe many of the Holocaust figures reported by the Russians are exaggerated (not to deny that millions of innocents were still killed).CONSPIRACY :eek:

:p

I hope it does not offend you, but I believe many of the Holocaust figures reported by the Russians are exaggerated (not to deny that millions of innocents were still killed).

That doesn't offend me.

I've lost alot of online enemies to this... No wait they are still enemies now they're just nuttier.

A lot of conspiracies are actually quite valid if you just look at the facts.

1) Did you know that the planes were unmarked, unmanned, and didn't have any windows?
2) Despite popular belief, the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile, and oddly enough, all the videos were confiscated. The only one you COULD see was a grainy one of poor quality.
3) Dick Cheney was in control of Norad at the time and made sure the planes weren't hit down.
4) Flight 93 was actually shot down. There were signs of military aircraft in the area.
5) They did 9/11 to capitalize on the military industrial complex and of course, get oil from Iraq.

A lot of conspiracies are actually quite valid if you just look at the facts.

1) Did you know that the planes were unmarked, unmanned, and didn't have any windows?
2) Despite popular belief, the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile, and oddly enough, all the videos were confiscated. The only one you COULD see was a grainy one of poor quality.
3) Dick Cheney was in control of Norad at the time and made sure the planes weren't hit down.
4) Flight 93 was actually shot down. There were signs of military aircraft in the area.
5) They did 9/11 to capitalize on the military industrial complex and of course, get oil from Iraq.

So, when are the facts gonna show up?

A lot of conspiracies are actually quite valid if you just look at the facts.

Oh this is going to be fun.


1) Did you know that the planes were unmarked, unmanned, and didn't have any windows?

Source?

2) Despite popular belief, the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile, and oddly enough, all the videos were confiscated. The only one you COULD see was a grainy one of poor quality.

and yet...

A part of an aircraft engine.
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/conclusions/docs/mystery_engine_s.jpg

Part of the Aircraft engine housing.

http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/db_images/db_Pentagon_Debris_101.jpg

This one looks like it came off of the "A" in American Airline.

http://www.911-strike.com/debris1.jpg

http://www.911-strike.com/generator.jpg

Oh see this Generator? Yea, apparently the wing of the aircraft clipped the generator, and pushed it back.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/PentagonDebrisMontagecopy1.jpg/PentagonDebrisMontagecopy1-full.jpg

3) Dick Cheney was in control of Norad at the time and made sure the planes weren't hit down.

Once again source?

You DO realize that NORAD (North America Radar Air Defense) was started during the Cold War, and actually was created to detect missiles with nuclear warhead coming from the USSR over the North Pole? So it was not designed for this type of event.

Also, the only person who can authorize the shoot down of civilian aircraft is The President himself. Which he did after the event has happened.
4) Flight 93 was actually shot down. There were signs of military aircraft in the area.

Once again, source?

I'd like to introduce you to two important boxes. The Black Boxes.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/February2009/130209box.jpg

See, Black Boxes are in every commercial airliner and they are designed to record everything that goes on in the aircraft. If the pilot farts, it's recorded. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) concluded that Flight 93 was not shot down, but instead crashed in Shanksville PA.


Link (http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf)

5) They did 9/11 to capitalize on the military industrial complex and of course, get oil from Iraq.

One final time, Source?

You know what, Screw Loose Change (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3214024953129565561&ei=fnjESfHKKZKwqwL50KXCCg&q=Screw+Loose+Change&hl=en) did it better than I ever could've.

You know what, I think this Chicken McNewbie was trolling for lulz. And you provided those lulz by pulling that stick out of your ass and using it to fling poo and swat the bars on the monkey cage that is NSG.

This is an unusual message board.

I find political conspiracies amusing, so if I ever had a friend who believed this nonsense I'd keep them around for entertainment value. People who believe in snake oil medical practices on the other hand... I have a couple friends and worked for an employer who believed in that nonsense. That's a little harder to bite my tongue on but so far I've managed.

Sigh. How many friends have you lost?

It depends... this one kid in a chat room I hang out in called it "a beacon of truth" or something to that effect, but we already knew he was a hopeless case. Does that mean that he counts as one who was lost from this or not? Also I tried viewing this, and other then the flawed arguments, it's so poorly done. They take out of context quotes, and they don't even interpret them. From the bit I saw it was just a string of tacked-together quotes.

Alright, you guys are kind of smart. If the towers fell because of the planes, then why do these posts look like they were cut with a torch (doesn't thermite do that?)?:

http://www.911lies.org/images2/thermite_thermate_explosives_wtc_911.jpg

Alright, you guys are kind of smart. If the towers fell because of the planes, then why do these posts look like they were cut with a torch (doesn't thermite do that?)?:

And amazingly not one person noticed a group of people with sledgehammers and torches in the buildings that morning. Or, if they did, not one person in WTC 2 put two and two together in time to leave.

That should be obvious -- the girders were cracked/twisted/etc. enough that there was a risk of them collapsing, so they sliced off the dangerous parts before sending people in to work on them. There's no sense in letting a giant chunk of metal falling on the workers' heads!

I have a very good friend who is a hardcore Conservative...insanely so by Canadian standards, he is actually a Bush supporter. I remain friends with him despite our massive ideological disagreements because he is an intelligent person with whom I can actually have very interesting conversations. We can treat each other respectfully. We use logic, we back our shit up.

Really? I've never met a Bush supporter who could "back shit up." At some point the conversation always devolves into "well that's what I think and I'm entitled to my opinion." Or they keep reasserting beliefs that I had disproved earlier and they forgot were nonsense. It starts to turn into a game of whack-a-mole.

It's like talking to people who don't understand how they could owe the IRS money.

"I thought I was gettin' a refund." (You weren't entitled to the Earned Income Credit.)
"But she told me I could claim her kids." (But you weren't really the one taking care of them.)
"But she don't make no money." (And you don't have no kids.)
"So how come I owe then?" (Because you weren't entitled to the EIC)
"But I never got it." (And you aren't going to, that's why you owe)
"But how come I have to pay it back if I never got it." (You have to pay taxes on the money you made)
"But I never got a refund." (Because you never paid any taxes. Now you have to.)
"But I didn't make any money" (You reported $6,000 dollars.)
"But that was under the table" (It was until you put it on your return.)
"But how come I ain't gettin' a refund" (Because the government only pays back money that you paid, but didn't have to. If you had to, but didn't you have to pay.)
"But that was supposed to come out of my refund." (You aren't getting any, you owe. There's nothing for it to come out of.)
"So what happened to my refund?"

And so on.

I have the above conversation about 20 times a day this time of year. So I'm familiar with the dynamics of wishful thinking. There are an astonishing number of people who have enormous trouble with the idea of 3-5=-2, when negative two is the amount of money in their bank account.

They have similar problems with the identically obvious proposition that Bush was a really bad president who did nothing good for the country because to do so would make them admit that liberalism is good and they were wrong.

But even when they acknowledge that the way that they used to think was wrong, they never acknowledge that it was the way they used to think, or that you were right all along. Self-interest just outpaces motivational belief.

http://www.alternet.org/environment/70885/


http://video.aol.com/video-detail/bill-moyers-journal-mountaintop-mining-pbs/288230387946494328/?icid=VIDURV09

Stupid is as stupid does.