NationStates Jolt Archive

One in 20 young German men neo-Nazis

Roughly one in twenty 15-year-old German males is a member of a neo-Nazi group, a higher proportion than are involved in mainstream politics, according to a newly released study.

Many politicians fear a resurgence of right-wing extremism as unemployment creeps higher in Germany, which is facing its deepest recession since World War Two. Government figures have shown anti-Semitic crimes rose at the end of last year.

"It is shocking that right-wing groups have more success recruiting male youths than the established political parties," said Christian Pfeiffer, author of the report issued by Lower Saxony's criminal research instute.

Pfeiffer said fewer than 2 percent of young men were active in mainstream politics, compared to the 5 percent involved in far-right groups.

The study, conducted in 2007 and 2008, also revealed that neo Nazi-symbols - in either rock music, stickers or special clothing - were used by one in 10 of the youths surveyed. The swastika and other Nazi symbols are banned in Germany.

The highest proportion of neo-Nazis was in former communist eastern Germany, where almost one in eight youths were in such groups. More than 14 percent of those questioned were described as racist, and anti-Semitism was rife.

More than 14 percent of those asked were inclined to brush off the Holocaust as "not awful" while a similar number tended to believe that Jews, through their behaviour, were not entirely blameless for their persecution.

Wolfgang Schaeuble, Germany's interior minister, said at the presentation of the state-sponsored report he would push for the creation of more sports clubs in regions with social problems.

Late last year, a violent attack on Bavarian police chief Alois Mannichl, who had taken a stand against far-right supporters, stoked a debate over the rise of neo-Nazis.

Earlier this month, an EU agency reported that peaks in anti-Semitism in Europe tracked tensions in the Middle East.

Linky~ (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/2272353/One-in-20-young-German-men-neo-Nazis)

It's happening again, maybe. 1/20 isn't that high of a number, but it's slightly disconcerting. Also, how is the holocaust "not horrible"?

I'm not sure where to go with this thread, but I thought NSG should know.

Well, at least we know not to try appeasement this time.

I'd imagine you'd get fairly similar results in (parts of) the US. Especially if you made the culturally-sensitive questions specific to the participants.

"Teenagers are retards shocker".

Roughly one in twenty 15-year-old German males

This is key.


Theyll get less stupid when they grow up.

This is key.


Theyll get less stupid when they grow up.

We hope.

We hope.
*sigh*

"Economy gets better in a couple of years, plebby Jammerossi kids get over themselves" - there's my prediction.

"Teenagers are retards shocker".

Agreed.

This is key.


Theyll get less stupid when they grow up.

*snerks* Yea....ok. *walks away laughing*

Id be willing to bet that for 15 year olds, its more about rebellion then policy.

Id be willing to bet that for 15 year olds, its more about rebellion then policy.

True, but get less stupid?

True, but get less stupid?

It's possible...

Just because it hasn't happened for you yet... :P


(j/k for those who didn't catch that)

Nobody'll do a thing about them unless they somehow convert to Islam. Then all the special forces get turned on them.

Nobody'll do a thing about them unless they somehow convert to Islam. Then all the special forces get turned on them.
... yeah or not...

This is key.


Theyll get less stupid when they grow up.

absolutely wrong.
15 year olds know everything. just ask them.

well at least their not doing drugs :)

but yeah its pretty much a normal group only their not communist so its not cool

We had better hurry up and inavde them.

*waits for someone to blame this on the Muslims*

*waits for someone to blame this on the Muslims*

if it work for all the turks in Germany then the youth wouldn't be like this.

*slowly edges away*

*slowly edges away*

stop that turk before she gets away !!!

stop that turk before she gets away !!!

Who are you calling a Turk?!:eek:

Obviously banning Nazism has totally worked.

Who are you calling a Turk?!:eek:

you obviously trying to sneak away.
off to a camp for you.
LG your the head guard of the camp!!!

Nobody'll do a thing about them unless they somehow convert to Islam. Then all the special forces get turned on them.

http://www.wesleyjsmith.com/blog/uploaded_images/wrong-704880.jpg
Not only is that feeble attempt at a joke (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that it was a joke because if that's what you reall think, we need to talk) totally ungrounded in reality, but it's quite the opposite of the real situation. Neo-Nazism is quite a big issue in Germany, notably in the Eastern states and notably since that mayor was stabbed due to his anti-nazi campaigning.

Here: (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,613844,00.html)

Rechtsextremismus unter Schülern alarmiert Regierung
Von Philipp Wittrock

Offene Ausländerfeindlichkeit, Judenhass, Sympathien für Kameradschaften - laut einer neuen Studie sind rechtsextreme Gesinnungen unter deutschen Jugendlichen weiter verbreitet als vielfach angenommen. Innenminister Schäuble nennt die Zahlen erschreckend hoch.

Rechtsextremismus unter Schülern alarmiert Regierung
Von Philipp Wittrock

Offene Ausländerfeindlichkeit, Judenhass, Sympathien für Kameradschaften - laut einer neuen Studie sind rechtsextreme Gesinnungen unter deutschen Jugendlichen weiter verbreitet als vielfach angenommen. Innenminister Schäuble nennt die Zahlen erschreckend hoch.

ANZEIGE

Berlin - Eine gute Viertelstunde lang hatte Christian Pfeiffer eher Erfreuliches zu verkünden. Viele Dinge seien gar nicht so schlimm, wie die Medien sie manchmal darstellten, betonte der Chef des Kriminologischen Instituts Niedersachsen (KFN), als er am Dienstagvormittag in der Berliner Bundespressekonferenz die Ergebnisse seiner jüngsten Studie zur Jugendgewalt in Deutschland vorstellte. Rückläufig oder stabil sei diese entgegen der öffentlichen Wahrnehmung in den meisten Gegenden, erklärte Pfeiffer. Sogleich lobt er die schwindende Gewaltakzeptanz in der Gesellschaft, die "Kultur des Hinschauens" an deutschen Schulen, die Präventionsarbeit der Polizei, die gestiegene Anzeigebereitschaft der Opfer.

Dann allerdings war Schluss mit dem erbaulichen Teil der Präsentation.

Plötzlich sprach Pfeiffer von "erschreckenden Erkenntnissen" und den "großen Sorgen", die diese ihm machten. "Das muss aufrütteln", mahnte der Kriminologe, "dass so viele Jugendliche in das Fahrwasser der Rechten geraten sind." Neben dem Forscher blickte Innenminister Wolfgang Schäuble, dessen Haus die Studie gemeinsam mit dem KFN durchgeführt hat, betroffen. "Dass die Zahlen hoch sind, war ja bekannt", sagte der CDU-Politiker, "aber dass sie so hoch sind, das hat mich erschrocken."

Jeder siebte Schüler "sehr ausländerfeindlich"

14,4 Prozent der Jugendlichen, also etwa jeder siebte, sind der Erhebung zufolge als "sehr ausländerfeindlich" einzustufen. Große Zustimmung fanden etwa Aussagen wie "Die meisten Ausländer sind kriminell" oder "Die in Deutschland lebenden Ausländer sind keine Bereicherung für die Kultur in Deutschland".

Though I'd say that thinking that many of the low class, unskilled immigrants (from cultures that often clash with Western culture) coming to Germany (and many other Western countries) not enriching the country is hardly neo-nazism . . . and I'm sure that's what most of these people polled are thinking. While Turkish immigrants are quite unpopular in Germany, Western, middle to upper class, skilled immigrants are not despised at anywhere near the same level, if at all.

Some of the things above are indeed bad things, while others, namely thinking there is too much immigration to Germany and too many immigrants (though I think most Germans wouldn't have much of a problem with Western, skilled immigrants) in Germany is not really a negative thing and should not be presented as neo-nazism, or right-extremism. There's nothing extreme about it.

This below is the response from 15 year old students being told that, "There are too many immigrants in Germany."

Stimmt genau - 'Exactly correct'

Stimmt eher - 'Rather correct'

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1466622,00.jpg

15-year-olds? Blame the parents. I'm serious.

*waits for someone to blame this on the Muslims*
Turks (Muslims) are the largest group of foreigners in Germany, that includes those who are citizens and those who are not. They have been the least integratable and are the least liked amongst the main groups of immigrants to Germany.

They are followed in size by Italians, Poles, who, though different from Germans, are much more integratable than Turks because they are Europeans and of similar (relatively) cultural/religion/ethnicity to German.

Turks (Muslims) are the largest group of foreigners in Germany, that includes those who are citizens and those who are not. They have been the least integratable and are the least liked amongst the main groups of immigrants to Germany.

They are followed in size by Italians, Poles, who, though different from Germans, are much more integratable than Turks because they are Europeans and of similar (relatively) cultural/religian/ethnicity to German.

I knew you wouldn't disappoint. :wink:

you obviously trying to sneak away.
off to a camp for you.
LG your the head guard of the camp!!!

No she's Spanish, they're just gonna have another Civil War so they can tell the rest of the world they were busy while we clean up this mess...I'm on to you Nanatsu, lazy Spanish.

I knew you wouldn't disappoint. :wink:

hey i said soem stuff first. give credit where credit is due

No she's Spanish, they're just gonna have another Civil War so they can tell the rest of the world they were busy while we clean up this mess...I'm on to you Nanatsu, lazy Spanish.
Eh. . . probably shouldn't go there. I believe her family was touched by the events of the civil war. I remember saying something about it once and felt bad almost directly after.

Just a friendly tip. :)

Feel free to stick around and get on this topic, though. ;)

No she's Spanish, they're just gonna have another Civil War so they can tell the rest of the world they were busy while we clean up this mess...I'm on to you Nanatsu, lazy Spanish.

nope i declare her a turk. send her to the camps.
where she may or may not be sexually abused by the guards. like yourself.

Turks (Muslims) are the largest group of foreigners in Germany, that includes those who are citizens and those who are not. They have been the least integratable and are the least liked amongst the main groups of immigrants to Germany.
So, lets not blame neo-Nazis, lets blame the people they hate?

Srsly?

So it's lets not blame neo-Nazis, lets blame the people they hate?

Srsly?

works for me i always blame the people i hate.

works for me i always blame the people i hate.
*ruffles hair*

So, lets not blame neo-Nazis, lets blame the people they hate?

Srsly?
No. Not at all. Neo-Nazis are bad people.

But that's not it.

Turks in Germany are absolutely not the model immigrant, and there is nothing 'neo-nazi' or whatever about saying that they are not enriching the country. That does not make one a neo-nazi.

There are two problems.

1 is Neo-Nazism which is rises because unemployment is rising (notably in the East) and because for a while the government would rather ignore immigration problems, politically, so the only people that discussed it where the fringe groups, that was bad.

Problem 2 is a rather large majority of Turkish immigrants, who are the least likely in Germany to assimilate and the least likely to contribute/benefit Germany.

Turks (Muslims) are the largest group of foreigners in Germany, that includes those who are citizens and those who are not. They have been the least integratable and are the least liked amongst the main groups of immigrants to Germany.

They are followed in size by Italians, Poles, who, though different from Germans, are much more integratable than Turks because they are Europeans and of similar (relatively) cultural/religion/ethnicity to German.
So the hell what? News flash: Xenophobia is not a defense of bigotry.

No. Not at all. Neo-Nazis are bad people.

But that's not it.

Turks in Germany are absolutely not the model immigrant, and there is nothing 'neo-nazi' or whatever about saying that they are not enriching the country. That does not make one a neo-nazi.

There are two problems.

1 is Neo-Nazism which is rises because unemployment is rising (notably in the East) and because for a while the government would rather ignore immigration problems, politically, so the only people that discussed it where the fringe groups, that was bad.

Problem 2 is a rather large majority of Turkish immigrants, who are the least likely in Germany to assimilate and the least likely to contribute/benefit Germany.

Yes. It is the fault of the group that has been most violently targetted, least tolerated and accomodated, and most excluded.... that they are acting like they somehow don't belong.

Similarly, it is the fault of people on fire, that they are hot.

So the hell what? News flash: Xenophobia is not a defense of bigotry.

To be fair, I dont think anyone has said that. Hes saying xenophobia tends to give rise to ultra nationalist groups.


Which I dont think anyone will dispute.

Turks in Germany are absolutely not the model immigrant, and there is nothing 'neo-nazi' or whatever about saying that they are not enriching the country. That does not make one a neo-nazi.
It does make one, at best, a generalising fool.

1 is Neo-Nazism which is rises because unemployment is rising (notably in the East) and because for a while the government would rather ignore immigration problems, politically, so the only people that discussed it where the fringe groups, that was bad.
Your previous posts seemed to me to be blaming Turkish immigrants to/citizens of Germany for the rise in neo-Nazism. Which would only make sense if neo-Nazism was the only acceptable/available outlet for angry feelings about non-white residents.

Is this not the case?

"It is shocking that right-wing groups have more success recruiting male youths than the established political parties," said Christian Pfeiffer

This man should be fired.

It does make one, at best, a generalising fool.


Your previous posts seemed to me to be blaming Turkish immigrants to/citizens of Germany for the rise in neo-Nazism. Which would only make sense if neo-Nazism was the only acceptable/available outlet for angry feelings about non-white residents.

Is this not the case?

I read it at TAI saying the Neo-Nazis blame the Turks for Germay's problems. Not that TAI does.

No she's Spanish, they're just gonna have another Civil War so they can tell the rest of the world they were busy while we clean up this mess...I'm on to you Nanatsu, lazy Spanish.

Cargate a tu abuela.:rolleyes:

I read it at TAI saying the Neo-Nazis blame the Turks for Germay's problems. Not that TAI does.

Your rose-colored glasses regarding TAI appear to be opaque.

Your rose-colored glasses regarding TAI appear to be opaque.

Im telling you how I read it. I know hes big on nationalism and "national culture". But youre all accusing him of blaming the victim. Thats not how I read his post.


Id do the same for you TCT.

nope i declare her a turk. send her to the camps.
where she may or may not be sexually abused by the guards. like yourself.

Greed... *points finger* Remember, I am the official Spanish Inquisition. I'm going to inquisite or summat, your behind!:mad:

I'm going to inquisite or summat, your behind!:mad:

Kinky.

No. Not at all. Neo-Nazis are bad people.

But that's not it.

Turks in Germany are absolutely not the model immigrant, and there is nothing 'neo-nazi' or whatever about saying that they are not enriching the country. That does not make one a neo-nazi.

There are two problems.

1 is Neo-Nazism which is rises because unemployment is rising (notably in the East) and because for a while the government would rather ignore immigration problems, politically, so the only people that discussed it where the fringe groups, that was bad.

So only people who already hated anyone not white German felt that there was a problem? That fringe neo Nazi groups are the only ones discussing the "immigration problem" does not do anything to make me believe that there is a problem with immigrants in Germany.

Problem 2 is a rather large majority of Turkish immigrants, who are the least likely in Germany to assimilate and the least likely to contribute/benefit Germany.

If there is as much negativity toward Turkish immigrants and families of Turkish descent as your diatribe suggests, perhaps the problem lies more with the people who won't let them participate in German culture and community and who don't want the contribution of Turkish immigrants anyway. And then blather about how they're not assimilating. Would you feel comfortable as a Turk in Germany, knowing how anti-immigration some people are? If comments like yours are in any way indicative of German attitudes, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable as a Turk.

Kinky.

Kinky? Me? Never.:eek2:

Well, all hope for this thread remaining on topic is dead.

Cargate a tu abuela.:rolleyes:

What was that about my grandmother!!

P.S. I just read TAI's post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14614539&postcount=30) and I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way

To be fair, I dont think anyone has said that. Hes saying xenophobia tends to give rise to ultra nationalist groups.


Which I dont think anyone will dispute.
A very shitty economic situation (high unemployment which leads to they took our jobs or they WILL take our jobs ranting), a rather large, unassimilated, low class, often disproportionately criminal immigrant group, a [former] general taboo in mainstream parties about discussing immigrant issues and the fact that some people are simply outright nazis extremists gives rise to the extremist parties.


It does make one, at best, a generalising fool.


Your previous posts seemed to me to be blaming Turkish immigrants to/citizens of Germany for the rise in neo-Nazism. Which would only make sense if neo-Nazism was the only acceptable/available outlet for angry feelings about non-white residents.

Is this not the case?
No, the failure of a disturbingly high amount of Turks to contribute/benefit and or contribute to German society is only part of the reason, as I showed above. Sorry for any misunderstandings.

What was that about my grandmother!!

Que te la cargues, guapo.

P.S. I just read TAI's post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14614539&postcount=30) and I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way

None taken. Your AV is a kitty.;)

I read it at TAI saying the Neo-Nazis blame the Turks for Germay's problems. Not that TAI does.
Germany's problems? As in their national economic problems or what? That has nothing to do with Turks. . .

I don't really know what we are discussing here.

I don't really know what we are discussing here.

Neither do I. Im just saying I dont think youre "blaming the victim"

Im telling you how I read it. I know hes big on nationalism and "national culture". But youre all accusing him of blaming the victim. Thats not how I read his post.


Id do the same for you TCT.
The growth of Neo-Nazism is never a good thing, and the entire German society is the victim of that.

Here is what I'm talking about, from Der Spiegel:
It's called, Turks are the losers of integration, forever foreign:

http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/image/show.html?did=63806907&aref=image039/2009/01/24/ROSPG2009005003301.JPG&thumb=false

EINWANDERUNG
Für immer fremd
Ein Drittel der in Deutschland geborenen Kinder wächst in Migrantenfamilien auf - sie werden mitbestimmen über die Zukunft des Landes. Doch viele Zuwanderer sind schlecht integriert. Eine neue Studie zeigt: Vor allem Türken zählen zu den Verlierern.
Etwas ist schiefgelaufen, und Süleyman Topaloglu versucht zu verstehen, was. Er ist 64 Jahre alt, seit Anfang der siebziger Jahre in Berlin, sein Deutsch noch immer bruchstückhaft. Topaloglu trägt die Kluft der Gastarbeiter: Cordhose, einen grauen Pullover, Schiebermütze. Ein Räuspern, es ist nicht leicht für ihn, hier vor den anderen Türken zu sprechen. Sie sitzen im Stuhlkreis, eine Selbsthilfegruppe in den Räumen des Jugendamts Neukölln, knapp 30 Männer und Frauen sind heute gekommen. "Arkadaslar", Freunde, sagt Topaloglu, "hört mir zu."

Seit drei Generationen lebe seine Familie in Deutschland, erzählt er. Er fühle sich zu Hause in Berlin, aber nicht heimisch. In der zweiten Generation, so hatte Topaloglu gedacht, werde sich das ändern, doch auch sein Sohn habe es nicht geschafft, sich einzuleben. Er rutschte ab in Arbeitslosigkeit, Drogen, Gefängnis. Topaloglu beugt sich auf seinem Stuhl nach vorn und schaut in die Runde. "Und jetzt, Freunde, brauche ich euren Rat. Jetzt will ich lernen, was ich bei meinen Enkeln besser machen kann."

"Unser neues Dorf", so heißt die Selbsthilfegruppe in Berlin, alle 14 Tage treffen sich hier Türken, die in Neukölln ankommen und heimisch werden wollen - auch wenn sie schon Jahre hier leben.
http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/dokument/70/96/dokument.html?titel=F%C3%BCr+immer+fremd&id=63806907&top=SPIEGEL&suchbegriff=integration+auslaender&quellen=&qcrubrik=recht

Great. And we expect something else from German adolescent rebellion when Germany makes such assidious efforts to turn the Nazis into pantomime villains?

Here is what I'm talking about, from Der Spiegel:
It's called, Turks are the losers of immigration, forever foreign:

*SNIP*

http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/dokument/70/96/dokument.html?titel=F%C3%BCr+immer+fremd&id=63806907&top=SPIEGEL&suchbegriff=integration+auslaender&quellen=&qcrubrik=recht

Do you, on a personal character, believe this about the Turks? Do you think they are indeed, as the Germans call them, the losers of immigration? I disagree, wholeheartedly.

[QUOTE=The Atlantian islands;14614721]Snip....QUOTE]

I have no problem with any nation wanting to limit immigration from certain places. With that said they have to deal with the fallout from said limitations.

-snip-

Is there really a need to quote the whoooole thing?

Do you, on a personal character, believe this about the Turks? Do you think they are indeed, as the Germans call them, the losers of immigration? I disagree, wholeheartedly.

I think the term "scapegoat" may fit here. However I haven't spent a lot of time in Germany recently to make a personal observation.

Edit: Any coincidence that this kind of "problem" arises during tough economic times???

I think the term "scapegoat" may fit here. However I haven't spent a lot of time in Germany recently to make a personal observation.

Neither have I, I was in Germany years ago. But it seems rather unfair to say the Turks are to blame for poor integration. I think both the Turks and the German government are to blame. One group for refusing to adapt and the other group for not facilitating ways for the other group to adapt. This is not about losing, it's about, truly, failing to reach from both sides.

Neither have I, I was in Germany years ago. But it seems rather unfair to say the Turks are to blame for poor integration. I think both the Turks and the German government are to blame. One group for refusing to adapt and the other group for not facilitating ways for the other group to adapt. This is not about losing, it's about, truly, failing to reach from both sides.

Got to ask since you are in the middle of Spain. I hear that there is some rumblings about the Moroccans in Spain. I have heard they fear deportation and targeted discrimination because of the economic slowdown. This was told by a Moroccan in Spain talking to my wife. Now not drawing any parallel here to the Turks issue. Just curious if you have noticed anything as such.

Neither have I, I was in Germany years ago. But it seems rather unfair to say the Turks are to blame for poor integration. I think both the Turks and the German government are to blame. One group for refusing to adapt and the other group for not facilitating ways for the other group to adapt. This is not about losing, it's about, truly, failing to reach from both sides.

I disagree. The German Government has no obligation to change policy or institutions for immigrants; if the Turkish migrants were so desperate to migrate to Germany, it is thus incumbent on them to make every effort to integrate into Germany.

No. Not at all. Neo-Nazis are bad people.

But that's not it.

Turks in Germany are absolutely not the model immigrant, and there is nothing 'neo-nazi' or whatever about saying that they are not enriching the country. That does not make one a neo-nazi.

There are two problems.

1 is Neo-Nazism which is rises because unemployment is rising (notably in the East) and because for a while the government would rather ignore immigration problems, politically, so the only people that discussed it where the fringe groups, that was bad.

Problem 2 is a rather large majority of Turkish immigrants, who are the least likely in Germany to assimilate and the least likely to contribute/benefit Germany.
Your argument is bullshit. Here's why:

1) If neo-nazis are bad people, all on their own, then there is no need to even mention the failings of their targets-du-jour.

2) At this point, you're not even talking about the neo-nazis. You are just using them as an excuse to bitch about immigrants, as usual.

3) You acknowledge that the neo-nazis are bad, yet blame their badness on others. Lame.

3) We are talking about 15-year-olds here. Their reasons for play-acting as nazis are likely to be shallow, ignorant, and self-indulgent, and as others have said, many of them are likely to abandon this disgusting hobby as they grow older. It is most likely that the fad for nazism among teens has little to do with any real issues with immigrants at all, as opposed to mere parroting of talking points and propaganda. Yet you fail to even address that.

It is clear you only latched onto this conversation as an opportunity to expound your pet issue, which is your extreme (and in my opinion unreasoning) anti-immigrant stance.

Is there really a need to quote the whoooole thing?
Hmm. . . now that you mention it.
Do you, on a personal character, believe this about the Turks? Do you think they are indeed, as the Germans call them, the losers of immigration? I disagree, wholeheartedly.
It was a typo. I was typing fast and wrote immigration instead of integration, which is what it should be. Turks are the losers of integration. Which isn't an opinion the article is making, it's the result of the poll.

"Studie: Türken sind die Verlierer der Integration."

Got to ask since you are in the middle of Spain. I hear that there is some rumblings about the Moroccans in Spain. I have heard they fear deportation and targeted discrimination because of the economic slowdown. This was told by a Moroccan in Spain talking to my wife. Now not drawing any parallel here to the Turks issue. Just curious if you have noticed anything as such.

I haven't been in Spain since last month or so, Marrakech. I did notice several things before I left. Zapatero's government is becoming more stringent with the immigration issues we have, especially with the Africans arriving at our borders and since now the government approved giving the Spanish passport to the children or grandchildren of Civil War victims. We had an average of almost a million Cubans applying for it in the past 3 months. If these measures will also affect the Moroccans in Spain too (not the cited example), I do not know. It may as well, Spain still lays claims to Morocco. *sighs*

It was a typo. I was typing fast and wrote immigration instead of integration, which is what it should be. Turks are the losers of integration. Which isn't an opinion the article is making, it's the result of the poll.

"Studie: Türken sind die Verlierer der Integration."

But I am asking you directly, I'm not putting any stock on the poll.

To be fair, I dont think anyone has said that. Hes saying xenophobia tends to give rise to ultra nationalist groups.


Which I dont think anyone will dispute.
I meant that, for the ultra-nationalist groups, their hatred of foreigners is not a defense of or excuse for their bigotry. "I hate those people" does not make it okay to attack or discriminate against them.

I disagree. The German Government has no obligation to change policy or institutions for immigrants; if the Turkish migrants were so desperate to migrate to Germany, it is thus incumbent on them to make every effort to integrate into Germany.
Im inclined to agree. I dont expect them to abandont their own culture, but its not the fault of the German government if they refuse to join in society.
I meant that, for the ultra-nationalist groups, their hatred of foreigners is not a defense of or excuse for their bigotry. "I hate those people" does not make it okay to attack or discriminate against them.
Agreed.

I disagree. The German Government has no obligation to change policy or institutions for immigrants; if the Turkish migrants were so desperate to migrate to Germany, it is thus incumbent on them to make every effort to integrate into Germany.

It's a failure on both sides, no need to color it or take sides. Germany is under no obligation to change its policies, true, but it isn't helping the migrant communities either.

I read it at TAI saying the Neo-Nazis blame the Turks for Germay's problems. Not that TAI does.
Look, I have come to see TAI as not the troll I originally thought him, but you always go to a lot of trouble to make it seem that TAI is playing devil's advocate. I think he argues that line far too consistently for that.

But TAI is not the topic of this thread. If I'm going to attack him, it will be on the grounds that his arguments don't hold water because they beg their own questions. EDIT: I don't want to argue about whether TAI is a bigot or a xenophobe, but I'm also not going to cut him slack for the statements he chooses to post.

I haven't been in Spain since last month or so, Marrakech. I did notice several things before I left. Zapatero's government is becoming more stringent with the immigration issues we have, especially with the Africans arriving at our borders and since now the government approved giving the Spanish passport to the children or grandchildren of Civil War victims. We had an average of almost a million Cubans applying for it in the past 3 months. If these measures will also affect the Moroccans in Spain too (not the cited example), I do not know. It may as well, Spain still lays claims to Morocco. *sighs*

Interesting twist to it. The Moroccan we were talking with didn't mention that little bit of info as a possible cause. As for Spain still claiming Spanish Morocco that I haven't heard. I figured they cut their losses and decided to keep the two footholds of Cueta and Melilla.

It's a failure on both sides, no need to color it or take sides. Germany is under no obligation to change its policies, true, but it isn't helping the migrant communities either.

However, the specific question turns on the fact that Germany should not alter in the slightest for immigrants; rather, the immigrants should make such changes and efforts as are necessary to integrate.

But I am asking you directly, I'm not putting any stock on the poll.
Turks, in terms of a group, out of all the different immigrants groups who have come/are in Germany, have failed the most at integrating themselves, yes.

Now, does that mean that it's their fault that neo-nazism is one the rise?

No, what I said before was that there are a much larger amount of factors for the rise in neo-nazism in Germany, and we're not just talking about teenagers either (although the OP's topic was).

Interesting twist to it. The Moroccan we were talking with didn't mention that little bit of info as a possible cause. As for Spain still claiming Spanish Morocco that I haven't heard. I figured they cut their losses and decided to keep the two footholds of Cueta and Melilla.

I thought so too. But politics play an integral part of who we are. Unfortunately. Ceuta and Melilla seem to be not enough.

The Moroccans you spoke to perhaps didn't know anything about this legislation i cited, though. It's called "La Memoria Historica", and it mainly applies to the children and grandchildren of Civil War victims living in Latin America. A good legislation, in principle, but one that will give my government a ton of headaches. Do you know how many Civil War exiles occured during Franco's time? Far too many.

Look, I have come to see TAI as not the troll I originally thought him, but you always go to a lot of trouble to make it seem that TAI is playing devil's advocate. I think he argues that line far too consistently for that.

But TAI is not the topic of this thread. If I'm going to attack him, it will be on the grounds that his arguments don't hold water because they beg their own questions.

Look, I don't know how much more clear I can be. I have never, and will never say, "Turks are the cause of Germany's problems." Simply because that's just a stupid populistic thing that narrow minded people who aren't aware of the wide amount of issues that plague a country would say because it's the most easy thing to understand.

But never, ever, take that as me saying that the failure of Turks to integrate (as my illustrated poll showed) is not problematic.

Clear? :p

Turks, in terms of a group, out of all the different immigrants groups who have come/are in Germany, have failed the most at integrating themselves, yes.

Now, does that mean that it's their fault that neo-nazism is one the rise?

No, what I said before was that there are a much larger amount of factors for the rise in neo-nazism in Germany, and we're not just talking about teenagers either (although the OP's topic was).

I can see your point, however, this failure is the fault of both sides. Now, this problem seems to be inherent to Germany (be that because of the rise of Neo-nazism or not). I don't see that same problem with the migrant communities here in Spain. The government does reaches out to them and, Turks and others alike do integrate to our society.

I thought so too. But politics play an integral part of who we are. Unfortunately. Ceuta and Melilla seem to be not enough.

The Moroccans you spoke to perhaps didn't know anything about this legislation i cited, though. It's called "La Memoria Historica", and it mainly applies to the children and grandchildren of Civil War victims living in Latin America. A good legislation, in principle, but one that will give my government a ton of headaches. Do you know how many Civil War exiles occured during Franco's time? Far too many.
To which countries did most of them go? Cuba? (I saw you said like a million Cubans had applied...thought it may be related)
I meant that, for the ultra-nationalist groups, their hatred of foreigners is not a defense of or excuse for their bigotry. "I hate those people" does not make it okay to attack or discriminate against them.
Obviously! We have laws and people have a right to saftey! We are not barbarians!:p Who would disagree with that?

However, the specific question turns on the fact that Germany should not alter in the slightest for immigrants; rather, the immigrants should make such changes and efforts as are necessary to integrate.

And Germany should see to it that they help these migrant communities with the adaptation. These are people that left behind what they knew, adapting isn't easy. Again, the issue is a failure on both sides.

Look, I don't know how much more clear I can be. I have never, and will never say, "Turks are the cause of Germany's problems." Simply because that's just a stupid populistic thing that narrow minded people who aren't aware of the wide amount of issues that plague a country would say because it's the most easy thing to understand.

But never, ever, take that as me saying that the failure of Turks to integrate (as my illustrated poll showed) is not problematic.

Clear? :p

Clear, but try to recognize that "the failure of Turks to integrate" is a value-judgment and not a matter of objective fact.

Similarly, saying in reference to the OP that "Turks in Germany are absolutely not the model immigrant, and there is nothing 'neo-nazi' or whatever about saying that they are not enriching the country" is (1) bullshit xenophobia and (2) indicative of an attitude that blames immigrants for neo-nazism.

To which countries did most of them go? Cuba? (I saw you said like a million Cubans had applied...thought it may be related)

Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela and Mexico.

Look, I don't know how much more clear I can be. I have never, and will never say, "Turks are the cause of Germany's problems." Simply because that's just a stupid populistic thing that narrow minded people who aren't aware of the wide amount of issues that plague a country would say because it's the most easy thing to understand.

But never, ever, take that as me saying that the failure of Turks to integrate (as my illustrated poll showed) is not problematic.

Clear? :p
Clear as day. And I will thank you to return the favor and not blame me for arguments or accusations I never made. Mkay? 'Kay, good.

I never said you blamed the Turks for all of Germany's problems. What I said was that you used the topic of this thread -- the popularity of nazism among German teen boys -- as a springboard for your usual song and dance about non-assimilated immigrants. I.e. a threadjack.

I can see your point, however, this failure is the fault of both sides. Now, this problem seems to be inherent to Germany (be that because of the rise of Neo-nazism or not). I don't see that same problem with the migrant communities here in Spain. The government does reaches out to them and, Turks and others alike do integrate to our society.
Maybe because Spanish culture is more relaxed and open? Maybe there is something intrinsicly German in Germany that Turks don't mix well with? Maybe you don't have as many Turks? Maybe maybe maybe . . .:p

It's just that problems are different between countries. Europe as a whole has a problem with Muslims living in European countries, while America, who, in the islamic world has had a much more 'anti-Muslims' foreign policy, doesn't share the same burden of problems with it's Muslim citizens, at all.

Why? Because problems differ between countries due to an oodle of reasons. It's a bit difficult. ;)

The poor and undereducated youth are always at risk of being recruited by gangs or organizations such as the neo Nazi party. They find power in the acceptance that they find there. The price is always conformity to the group. This can by crime, drugs, violence or racial hatred and violence. Our current economy is an enviroment that makes these groups appealing. Prior to WWII the economy of Germany was a mess and the Nazi Party "fixed " it. Could they have hope that this might work again?

Maybe because Spanish culture is more relaxed and open? Maybe there is something intrinsicly German in Germany that Turks don't mix well with? Maybe you don't have as many Turks? Maybe maybe maybe . . .:p

Culture does plays a part, but the government tries to help them integrate.

It's just that problems are different between countries. Europe as a whole has a problem with Muslims living in European countries, while America, who, in the islamic world has had a much more 'anti-Muslims' foreign policy, doesn't share the same burden of problems with it's Muslim citizens, at all.

You don't have to tell me that. I live in the EU.

Why? Because problems differ between countries due to an oodle of reasons. It's a bit difficult. ;)

But your making reference to this oodle of reasons. Try to exemplify. And I am not seeking to battle with you, I'm too tired. I just want to understand what qualifies you to speak on Germany's behalf. You're an American who, upon occasions, have spent time there. You're not a native nor are you a citizen of the EU. Explain this to me.

Clear as day. And I will thank you to return the favor and not blame me for arguments or accusations I never made. Mkay? 'Kay, good.
I wasn't blaming you. It was more me clarifying my position to you and KoL that seemed questionable due to the post you were quoting, that's all.


I never said you blamed the Turks for all of Germany's problems. What I said was that you used the topic of this thread -- the popularity of nazism among German teen boys -- as a springboard for your usual song and dance about non-assimilated immigrants. I.e. a threadjack.
I found it quite relevant and related an issue.
Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela and Mexico.
Was just wondering, thanks.
Clear, but try to recognize that "the failure of Turks to integrate" is a value-judgment and not a matter of objective fact.
No. That's where you're wrong. It's a fact and I already sighted why:
http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/image/show.html?did=63806907&aref=image039/2009/01/24/ROSPG2009005003301.JPG&thumb=false

Similarly, saying in reference to the OP that "Turks in Germany are absolutely not the model immigrant, and there is nothing 'neo-nazi' or whatever about saying that they are not enriching the country" is (1) bullshit xenophobia and (2) indicative of an attitude that blames immigrants for neo-nazism.
That, however, is a judgement and not a fact.

Culture does plays a part, but the government tries to help them integrate.
Right, but other places, also depending on what flavor of government is in power, might feel that is not the correct role for government. In any event, it doesn't matter because in Germany there is government help for immigrants to integrate, the most famous example of which would be the Amt für multikulturelle Angelegenheiten office in Frankfurt.


You don't have to tell me that. I live in the EU.
I was showing that problems differe between countries.


But your making reference to this oodle of reasons. Try to exemplify. And I am not seeking to battle with you, I'm too tired. I just want to understand what qualifies you to speak on Germany's behalf. You're an American who, upon occasions, have spent time there. You're not a native nor are you a citizen of the EU. Explain this to me.
Ok. Don't look at my speaking on behalf of Germany, but look at me speaking on behalf of the poll from Der Spiegel which I showed you shows that Turks, out of all different kinds of immigrants, have failed at integration.

I wasn't blaming you. It was more me clarifying my position to you and KoL that seemed questionable due to the post you were quoting, that's all.



I found it quite relevant and related an issue.
Obviously, I disagree.

That, however, is a judgement and not a fact.
A judgment made by many people who are not interested in just attacking you personally. They base that judgment on the content of your statements, on the trends of your statements over time in NSG, and on your defenses of your statements.

Does it ever occur to you that you might be the one failing to make yourself clear, if in fact, our judgment is not accurate? Do you ever feel any interest in re-examining your arguments?

Whatever. You are not the topic of this thread. Neither is immigration. If anyone feels like discussing the rise of neo-nazism among German youth, I'd be interested in hearing opinions about that. "What TAI Thinks of Immigrants" is of no interest to me tonight.

No. That's where you're wrong. It's a fact and I already sighted why:
*snip*

A survey whose results are published by Der Spiegel hardly makes something a "fact"--especially when the results are pushed through a value-laden lens.

That, however, is a judgement and not a fact.

Yep. A judgment. Unlike your judgment, a good one based on sound thinking and known facts.

To which countries did most of them go? Cuba? (I saw you said like a million Cubans had applied...thought it may be related)

Obviously! We have laws and people have a right to saftey! We are not barbarians!:p Who would disagree with that?
And therefore, the failings of immigrants are irrelevant to this topic. Thanks for agreeing. Next?

Linky~ (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/2272353/One-in-20-young-German-men-neo-Nazis)

It's happening again, maybe. 1/20 isn't that high of a number, but it's slightly disconcerting. Also, how is the holocaust "not horrible"?

I'm not sure where to go with this thread, but I thought NSG should know.


Eh, I'm not overly concerned about it. Those statistics sound pretty similar to those I'd imagine you would see in the United States, or Great Britain, or anywhere else for that matter. I imagine its something akin to the gang movement in the inner city, disenfranchised youths seeking comraderie and a somewhat "close" social structure which is lacking in their lives. A lot will grow out of it I imagine...at least I hope they do.

Eh, I'm not overly concerned about it. Those statistics sound pretty similar to those I'd imagine you would see in the United States, or Great Britain, or anywhere else for that matter
Oh please.

One in twenty youths in the US or UK would not describe themselves as a member of an extreme right-wing group.

Oh please.

One in twenty youths in the US or UK would not describe themselves as a member of an extreme right-wing group.
Interestingly (in a completely non-scientific way) the official BNP Facebook group has 3,076 members, while the anti-BNP group has 124,220 members.

This stat coming soon to a Grauniad near you!

We had better hurry up and inavde them.

And then split Germany in two... oh wait... ok, let's make eight this time. :tongue:

And then split Germany in two... oh wait... ok, let's make eight this time. :tongue:

Well, four didn't work either. Better be safe and make it atleast 12. ;)

Well, four didn't work either. Better be safe and make it atleast 12. ;)

26. So every EU country gets a piece.

Dibs on Freiburg i.B.!

Anyway, seriously: there is a worrying rise of the number of neofascist (and neonazi) youngsters here in Italy, too. Also iirc in Russia, Poland, Croatia etc. Even in Israel iirc.
Neofascism/neonazism is the Zeitgeist, I fear.

26. So every EU country gets a piece.

Dibs on Freiburg i.B.!

Now your talking. Especially because I'm about to become part of the EU! :)

Now your talking. Especially because I'm about to become part of the EU! :)

Welcome, buddy!
Where are you moving to?

Welcome, buddy!
Where are you moving to?

Not moving an inch! But getting Irish citizenship, yay.

I for one support the youth following the ideals of fascism. Spiffy black SS uniforms > wigger-look any day.

Id be willing to bet that for 15 year olds, its more about rebellion then policy.
I imagine their knowledge of policy extends to "Those fucking auslander are stealing our jobs and causing unemployment"(wat?)
well at least their not doing drugs :)
They totally are.
I for one support the youth following the ideals of fascism. Spiffy black SS uniforms > wigger-look any day.

Blonde girls in uniform, hmmmm. Maybe there is something to this neo-nazism lark.

Blonde girls in uniform, hmmmm. Maybe there is something to this neo-nazism lark.They'll suck the liberalism straight outta your balls!

I would like to point out that the parts of Germany where Neo-Nazism is thriving the most are those with the smallest percentage of immigrants. In many Eastern German villages where the NPD has high support ratings you probably won't find any foreigners or even foreign-looking persons at all.
On the other hand, big cities with a high percentage of immigrants (15-20%) like Hamburg, Berlin, Cologne, Frankfurt have far less adherents of right-wing stances amongst the indigenous population. Neo-Nazism is virtually non-existant as a political and cultural movement here. (That's why the few Nazis hailing from or living in big cities are usually even more aggressive than the average rural Nazi hillbilly - not only is their worldview based upon anger and hatred, they are also complete social outcasts in their own enviroment.)

I would like to point out that the parts of Germany where Neo-Nazism is thriving the most are those with the smallest percentage of immigrants. In many Eastern German villages where the NPD has high support ratings you probably won't find any foreigners or even foreign-looking persons at all.
On the other hand, big cities with a high percentage of immigrants (15-20%) like Hamburg, Berlin, Cologne, Frankfurt have far less adherents of right-wing stances amongst the indigenous population. Neo-Nazism is virtually non-existant as a political and cultural movement here. (That's why the few Nazis hailing from or living in big cities are usually even more aggressive than the average rural Nazi hillbilly - not only is their worldview based upon anger and hatred, they are also complete social outcasts in their own enviroment.)

So with the economic collapse allowing them to take over the government, when is the next invasion of France Scheduled ?

I would like to point out that the parts of Germany where Neo-Nazism is thriving the most are those with the smallest percentage of immigrants.
Unsurprising, really.

It's hard to hate a whole set of people once you get to know them.

Fear of the unknown, and all that.

Your honor, I motion to call the whole thing "boys will be boys" and move on.

So with the economic collapse allowing them to take over the government, when is the next invasion of France Scheduled ?

Nah, I don't think that an invasion of France is on their priority list. Their political beliefs can be usually summarized as:

1.) Outlawing and persecuting everyone and everything which isn't exactly like them:
Muslims, Jews, all other minor religious communities, both churches, foreigners, Germans with foreign background, Germans who are married to foreigners, Germans who look foreign (I even once heard of a suggestion to crackdown upon "un-german" names, like David or Thomas), labor unions, free enterprise, homo-, bi- and transsexuals, the physically and mentally disabled, leftists, liberals, centrists, conservatives, the homeless, feminists...(You can get the picture.)

2.) An alliance between Germany and the likes of Iran, Hamas and El-Kaida to face the Judeo-American threat or something. Russia is also allowed to join if they give back Kalinigrad and admit that Germany was only defending itself during Operation Barbarossa and that none of the stories about German war crimes in Russia are true, while the Russian war crimes in Germany were 100x times worse than usually believed.

3.) Reclaiming the ur-German terriories of Silesia and Eastern Prussia with their less than 1% German populations and teach those commie Poles a lesson for good.

4.) Devotional worship of every single aspect and every minor figure of the Third Reich. All of German history and culture that took place before and after those 12 years is unimportant (save for the anually celebrated Führer's birthday, of course), only the time period of 1933-1945 counts. The Wehrmacht was the best and strongest army in the history of the universe.

5.) Denial of the Holocaust and any German war crime or war guilt for that matter. When the Germans invaded a dozen or so countries, they only did so to defend themselves and Europe from said countries' aggressions. Also, the bombing of Dresden was the biggest and worst war crime in human history and the real Holocaust, unlike the other one which didn't happen.

And that's about it. There are no reality-based political stances, especially not for the economy. In fact, they usually lack any kind of economic program. Maybe because money and finances are a jewish thing or something like that.

Right, but other places, also depending on what flavor of government is in power, might feel that is not the correct role for government. In any event, it doesn't matter because in Germany there is government help for immigrants to integrate, the most famous example of which would be the Amt für multikulturelle Angelegenheiten office in Frankfurt.

And yet you maintain, using Der Spiegel, that the Turkish migrants are a failure in integrating.

I was showing that problems differe between countries.

They do, still, you're taking the poll to extremes. It kind of makes it seems that the entire EU is as Germany.

Ok. Don't look at my speaking on behalf of Germany, but look at me speaking on behalf of the poll from Der Spiegel which I showed you shows that Turks, out of all different kinds of immigrants, have failed at integration.

In Germany. And once again, this shows 2 things, the failure of the Turks to integrate and the failure of Germany to help them integrate. Look further than your nose, TAI, and forget about illustrating things by polls. Those can be manipulated at any given moment. Once again, I want to know what you, YOU, consider this failure to be?

absolutely wrong.
15 year olds know everything. just ask them.

Hehehe, I don't.