NationStates Jolt Archive

... during staff meetings. However, if I had put that in the title, you wouldn't have come in here would you? No....

Here's a source: Linky~ (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/community/news/bocaraton/sfl-flphospice0318pnmar18,0,5601993.story?makesperfectsense)

A chaplain at Hospice by the Sea in Boca Raton has resigned, she says, over a ban on use of the words "God" or "Lord" in public settings.

Chaplains still speak freely of the Almighty in private sessions with patients or families but, the Rev. Mirta Signorelli said: "I can't do chaplain's work if I can't say 'God' — if I'm scripted."

Hospice CEO Paula Alderson said the ban on religious references applies only to the inspirational messages that chaplains deliver in staff meetings. The hospice remains fully comfortable with ministers, priests and rabbis offering religious counsel to the dying and grieving.

"I was sensitive to the fact that we don't impose religion on our staff, and that it is not appropriate in the context of a staff meeting to use certain phrases or 'God' or 'Holy Father,' because some of our staff don't believe at all," Alderson said.

Signorelli, of Royal Palm Beach, said the hospice policy has a chilling effect that goes beyond the monthly staff meetings. She would have to watch her language, she said, when leading a prayer in the hospice chapel, when meeting patients in the public setting of a nursing home and in weekly patient conferences with doctors, nurses and social workers.

"If you take God away from me," she said, "it's like taking a medical tool away from a nurse."

A devout Christian who acquired a master's degree in theology after a career as a psychologist, running a program for abused and neglected children, Signorelli has been ministering to the dying for 13 years. She worked at the Hospice of Palm Beach County before moving seven years ago to Hospice by the Sea, a community-based nonprofit organization that cares for terminally ill patients in Palm Beach and Broward counties.

Signorelli said that she and other chaplains were told Feb. 23 to "cease and desist from using God in prayers."

Signorelli said her supervisor recently singled her out for delivering a spiritual reflection in the chapel that included the word "Lord" and had "a Christian connotation."

"But that was the 23rd Psalm," Signorelli said — not, strictly speaking, Christian, as it appears in the Old Testament.

"And I am well aware that there were people from the Jewish tradition in attendance. I didn't say Jesus or Allah or Jehovah. I used 'Lord' and 'God,' which I think are politically correct. I think that's as generic as you can get."

Signorelli resigned Feb. 25.

None of the six other chaplains objected to the ban on God's name, she said.

Alderson said she was surprised by Signorelli's reaction to what she characterized as a minor administrative directive aimed solely at improving the decorum of monthly staff meetings, where the desired tone from a chaplain should be motivational, not religious.

Alderson said it started after she asked a chaplain — not Signorelli — to say something "inspirational" and "thought-provoking" at a staff meeting. The remarks did not strike the secular tone she wanted, Alderson said. So, "I issued some guidelines."

Guidelines from HealthCare Chaplaincy, a multi-faith organization, state that professional chaplains should "reach across faith group boundaries and not proselytize." But they don't tell chaplains to refrain from speaking about God.

"I hope this is some sort of misunderstanding," said Rita Kaufman, spokeswoman for the Association of Professional Chaplains, based in Schaumburg, Ill.

Hospice of Palm Beach County has not barred "God," marketing director Karen Stearns said. It does direct chaplains to be sensitive to patients' religious sensibilities.

Likewise, a ban on the word "God" was new to Mathew Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, a religious-freedom organization based in Orlando.

"That seems quite bizarre, and a significant restriction on her freedom of speech," Staver said.

Noting that spirituality has been linked to mortality and morbidity rates, Staver added: "To excise God from someone who is a grief counselor seems to be an extreme and uncalled-for response."

Hospice by the Sea, founded in 1979, provides services to about 500 patients every day on an annual budget of $35 million. Most revenue comes from Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance, along with about $2.5 million a year in donations and grants, according to Philanthropic Research Inc.

What say you NSG? Reasonable, or ridiculous?

EDIT: By the way, this *is* in Florida.

It's the War On God!

It's the War On God!And teh ebil Atheist are winning, oh noez! :eek:

(How the fuck are we "winning" anyway? :D)

And teh ebil Atheist are winning, oh noez! :eek:

(How the fuck are we "winning" anyway? :D)

Guns. Lots of guns.

Guns. Lots of guns.

http://www.danbyron.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/MatrixWeNeedGuns-20080503-084716.jpg

usings scientific studies and having people in white lab coats state that god doesn't exist

usings scientific studies and having people in white lab coats state that god doesn't exist

Nah. Just that even if God exists, he is irrelevant.

usings scientific studies and having people in white lab coats state that god doesn't exist

Are they saying that 'God Doesn't Exist', or are they saying that 'Religion Isn't Science'?

Because there's a difference you know.

Daft question: Why would you even need to bring up God in staff meetings?

"I'll be sitting in for God on this one, he's busy in the Holy Land"?

And teh ebil Atheist are winning, oh noez! :eek:

(How the fuck are we "winning" anyway? :D)

No. We Hindus and Atheistic-Hindu's are winning! HA HA.

I predit a lot of whining.

Daft question: Why would you even need to bring up God in staff meetings?

She is a chaplain. One assumes her belief in God and scripture has some influence on her decisions.

She is a chaplain. One assumes her belief in God and scripture has some influence on her decisions.

I can follow that far; but I still can't grasp how it would be relevant in a staff meeting. With budgets and shit.

Daft question: Why would you even need to bring up God in staff meetings?

"I'll be sitting in for God on this one, he's busy in the Holy Land"?

The chaplain was asked to give motivational speeches in the staff meetings.

She is a chaplain. One assumes her belief in God and scripture has some influence on her decisions.

Yeah right. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that fire isn't very cold, doctors practice medicine and that guns don't kill people, mortal wounds caused by flying bullets and bayonets do.

The chaplain was asked to give motivational speeches in the staff meetings.

Ahh. That makes far more sense. Cheers.

Yeah right. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that fire isn't very cold, doctors practice medicine and that guns don't kill people, mortal wounds caused by flying bullets and bayonets do.

I want to see someone killed by a bayonet. That just doesn't happen anymore.

I want to see someone killed by a bayonet. That just doesn't happen anymore.

For the last time, bayonets don't kill people, the mortal wounds they give people do. It's a known fact that the biggest mass murderer isn't Stalin or Hitler. The biggest mass murderer is Death himself. Always killing somebody every other second.

For the last time, bayonets don't kill people, the mortal wounds they give people do. It's a known fact that the biggest mass murderer isn't Stalin or Hitler. The biggest mass murderer is Death himself. Always killing somebody every other second.

We should get this "Death" guy. Let's have a "War on Death" and see what happens.

they probably should have dropped the inspirational messages at staff meetings instead of telling a chaplain to shut up about god.

What say you NSG? Reasonable, or ridiculous?
Ridiculous.

... during staff meetings. However, if I had put that in the title, you wouldn't have come in here would you? No....

Here's a source: Linky~ (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/community/news/bocaraton/sfl-flphospice0318pnmar18,0,5601993.story?makesperfectsense)



What say you NSG? Reasonable, or ridiculous?

EDIT: By the way, this *is* in Florida.

I see no problem with it.

It's no different than if my employer required that I stopped using the acronyms PRP, LIMT or IP in my briefings. I may consider them important and view them as essential to my role but it'd be a reasonable management request.

they probably should have dropped the inspirational messages at staff meetings instead of telling a chaplain to shut up about god.

basically this. It seems silly to ask someone who you know is very religious "hey, can you give an inspirational talk? but none of that god shit, ok?" Of course, I suppose they are within their rights as employers to ask that, it just seems well, silly.

Wait...

"If you take God away from me," she said, "it's like taking a medical tool away from a nurse."

Splendid! God is a tool now! And He or She can be taken away by making her not say a word!

Milady, GOD IS NOT A MAGIC SPELL OR A POKÉMON!

Och!

Seriously, the woman treats God like He/She/It/They are a creature she summons to do her bidding! What next? Six god-balls that store her gods? Squirtle, Pikachu, Charmander, Bulbasaur, Pidgey and YHVH?

A hospice without a chaplain is like a fish without a bicycle.

She hasn't been forbidden from using the word God. She has been forbidden from imposing her religion on staff members. My understanding of the role of chaplain is that they provide religious counseling when requested by the patient. At least, when my mother was going through treatment that's what happened. The chaplain came around and asked if religious counseling was wanted, and moved along if it wasn't. I doubt that they preached at staff meetings.

If they didn't want an inspirational talk about God, why did they ask a God-botherer to give an inspirational speech?

What say you NSG? Reasonable, or ridiculous?

EDIT: By the way, this *is* in Florida.

I actually have to agree with the chaplain... his job is a religious job, I think if he is allowed to use religiously sensitive words with 'customers' than using the same language with fellow employees at official meetings should pose no problems... it's not like it should really be that unexpected, when you think about it; "Oh, that religious guy who fills an officially religious post at my place of business is talking about religion again."

Daft question: Why would you even need to bring up God in staff meetings?

"I'll be sitting in for God on this one, he's busy in the Holy Land"?

It would make his opinions and agendas much more perusasive. :tongue:

they probably should have dropped the inspirational messages at staff meetings instead of telling a chaplain to shut up about god.

Or gotten some supervisory position to take over the responsibility, while the chaplain filled in when needed, or some such... that seems to make more sense anyway.

basically this. It seems silly to ask someone who you know is very religious "hey, can you give an inspirational talk? but none of that god shit, ok?" Of course, I suppose they are within their rights as employers to ask that, it just seems well, silly.

Agreed, the employer has the right to do it... but more than her being merely religious... specifically, she filled a religious post at her place of employment.

Wait...



Splendid! God is a tool now! And He or She can be taken away by making her not say a word!

Milady, GOD IS NOT A MAGIC SPELL OR A POKÉMON!

Och!

Seriously, the woman treats God like He/She/It/They are a creature she summons to do her bidding! What next? Six god-balls that store her gods? Squirtle, Pikachu, Charmander, Bulbasaur, Pidgey and YHVH?

I'm pretty sure that she meant that spirituality is directly related to her doing her job correctly... you put a lot of words in her mouth right there... she never once said that God is tool to do her bidding, nor did she equate God with a trading card monster guy.

Also, if she is capable of catching a seemingly (or nearly) omnipotent being in a Pokeball... why are all her other pokemon unevolved? Or is it that she doesn't believe in evolution?

A hospice without a chaplain is like a fish without a bicycle.

You're right... it's a pretty needed position. :tongue:

Sorry for pretty much stealing the thread... I didn't realize no one else would be active....

It seems a bit ridiculous. So what if she says God? It's just a word. People get all riled up about petty shit like this; I just don't get it.

I'm pretty sure that she meant that spirituality is directly related to her doing her job correctly... you put a lot of words in her mouth right there... she never once said that God is tool to do her bidding, nor did she equate God with a trading card monster guy.

Also, if she is capable of catching a seemingly (or nearly) omnipotent being in a Pokeball... why are all her other pokemon unevolved? Or is it that she doesn't believe in evolution?

She only levels YHVH.

The chaplain was asked to give motivational speeches in the staff meetings.

And she was given some guidelines over what those speeches should contain. Instead of following her employer's guidelines, she quit in a snit and ran to the media.

It's no different than if my employer required that I stopped using the acronyms PRP, LIMT or IP in my briefings. I may consider them important and view them as essential to my role but it'd be a reasonable management request.

Exactically.

I actually have to agree with the chaplain... his job is a religious job, I think if he is allowed to use religiously sensitive words with 'customers' than using the same language with fellow employees at official meetings should pose no problems... it's not like it should really be that unexpected, when you think about it; "Oh, that religious guy who fills an officially religious post at my place of business is talking about religion again."

1. She.

2. The other chaplains seem to be able to comply.

3. This has nothing to do with the other aspects of the chaplain's job. Customers aren't required to attend meetings with the chaplain's religious speeches.

First off - See My Sig...

Second off- They are a professional religious and to tell they can't use the terms 'God' and 'Lord' - neither of which are terms used solely by any one religion - is down right dumb.

First off - See My Sig...

Second off- They are a professional religious and to tell they can't use the terms 'God' and 'Lord' - neither of which are terms used solely by any one religion - is down right dumb.

You appear to be operating under the bizarre assumption that chaplains are not just entitled to employment, but are further entitled to be free from an employer's constraints.

As TCT said, none of the other religious counselors or chaplains seem to be complaining. And one would imagine that God is as essential to their role as it is to the one who quit.

Nope, my sig is not at all saying they should be free of employment - it's what I think of relgion as a whole. And that is a quote from Robert Heinlein by way of Lazarous Long.

However requiring a priest/ chaplain to not use the term "God" or "Lord" - they are professional god trumpeters - is kind of like telling a prostitute she can't take money for sex. It's an integral part of their profession...

If they didn't want an inspirational talk about God, why did they ask a God-botherer to give an inspirational speech?

Possibly, because that's the role most closely fitting?

I don't see why it's a problem, though. Commies can talk about economy without having to invoke Marx. Libertarians could (theoretically) talk about economies without getting all wet over Ayn Rand... why do we not expect someone to be able to say 'chin up, chappies', without invoking a god?

Nope, my sig is not at all saying they should be free of employment - it's what I think of relgion as a whole. And that is a quote from Robert Heinlein by way of Lazarous Long.

However requiring a priest/ chaplain to not use the term "God" or "Lord" - they are professional god trumpeters - is kind of like telling a prostitute she can't take money for sex. It's an integral part of their profession...

1. I was responding to your second comment, not your sig.

2. Read the frickin' OP. No one is requiring the chaplain to refrain from using "God" or "Lord" all the time or even during normal duties -- just not to inject them into specific speeches at staff meetings.

2. Read the frickin' OP. No one is requiring the chaplain to refrain from using "God" or "Lord" all the time or even during normal duties -- just not to inject them into specific speeches at staff meetings.

I did read it, and inspirational messages at staff meetings -when asked to be made by a chaplain are as naturally going to contain references to the Divine as a prostitue asking to be paid for her services.

IF they wanted inspirational messages that contained no such references they should never have asked the chaplin. Simple common sense.

Though I do think the chaplain who resigned is taking possible exentsion of the ban to extremes. But it can be called a slipperly slope as well, because if they ban it there and get away with it, then there is the always all too human potential of trying to ban it elsewhere.

Humans love having power over others, it seems endemic to the species.

I did read it, and inspirational messages at staff meetings -when asked to be made by a chaplain are as naturally going to contain references to the Divine as a prostitue asking to be paid for her services.


By which token, you believe that working girls never give freebies?

And teh ebil Atheist are winning, oh noez! :eek:

(How the fuck are we "winning" anyway? :D)

Because I, thy LORD, am on the atheists' side. I want My retirement and I want to go to Florida without people continuously calling Me!

;)

Because I, thy LORD, am on the atheists' side. I want My retirement and I want to go to Florida without people continuously calling Me!

;)

Careful what you wish for, there.

It seems a bit ridiculous. So what if she says God? It's just a word.
**WARNING, EXPLICIT LANGUAGE**

Just words:

Faggot
N-gger
C-nt
Kike
Cock
Gook
Motherfucker

**END EXPLICIT CONTENT**

Frankly, the whole "it's just words" thing is naive to the point of being pathetic in my eyes. People who know they are saying offensive, inappropriate things will always fall back on claiming that anybody who is offended should get over it because "it's just words." Sorry, but no. My four year old nephew is able to comprehend that there are no-no words which we do not say in certain situations, so if you claim that you can't handle that concept then you're either a liar or you're stupider than a four year old.

However requiring a priest/ chaplain to not use the term "God" or "Lord" - they are professional god trumpeters - is kind of like telling a prostitute she can't take money for sex. It's an integral part of their profession...
Because prostitutes never have consensual sex without being paid, right?

Careful what you wish for, there.

I didn't say I want to stay there forever. And when I say forever, being eternal, I really mean it, you know.

**WARNING, EXPLICIT LANGUAGE**

Just words:

Faggot
N-gger
C-nt
Kike
Cock
Gook
Motherfucker

**END EXPLICIT CONTENT**

Frankly, the whole "it's just words" thing is naive to the point of being pathetic in my eyes. People who know they are saying offensive, inappropriate things will always fall back on claiming that anybody who is offended should get over it because "it's just words." Sorry, but no. My four year old nephew is able to comprehend that there are no-no words which we do not say in certain situations, so if you claim that you can't handle that concept then you're either a liar or you're stupider than a four year old.Nope, it's still valid. Those are just words. Words only have the power you give them. Act as if they have no power, and low and behold they don't.

Nope, it's still valid. Those are just words. Words only have the power you give them. Act as if they have no power, and lo and behold they don't.

Splendid. Only, Linguistics doesn't work like that. You can't simply tell people not to ascribe a meaning to a word. Language changes take decades. Centuries, even. It's why you can still read Shakespeare.

Language changes take decades.

Perhaps this is correct of major language changes, but I have seen words take on new meanings even within my short lifetime. Faggot or queer, for instance, as well as the n-word (it won't let me type it out), have both been adopted by the people they formerly mocked or smeared, but have instead been given a sort-of proud meaning when used within those communities. Taking the power away from words is a tactic long used by all sorts of people, usually those oppressed by such words in the first place.

Splendid. Only, Linguistics doesn't work like that. You can't simply tell people not to ascribe a meaning to a word. Language changes take decades. Centuries, even. It's why you can still read Shakespeare.It takes a moment to change your own view of a word. And notice I didn't say change the meaning, I referred to this mystical quality people feel about 'bad' words. They are only as bad as you make them out to be.

They are only as bad as you make them out to be.

No, they're only as bad as MOST make them out to be. Language is constructed by consensus.

No, they're only as bad as MOST make them out to be. Language is constructed by consensus.

Luna was talking about the way it makes one feel personally though so I don't see how your comment makes a difference.

That is if i'm understanding him/her correctly

they probably should have dropped the inspirational messages at staff meetings instead of telling a chaplain to shut up about god.

Indeed. What on earth did they expect?

Nope, it's still valid. Those are just words. Words only have the power you give them. Act as if they have no power, and low and behold they don't.

There is a methodology for testing how firmly you hold this belief, but the NS:G TOS doesn't allow me to demonstrate it.

Indeed. What on earth did they expect?

Apparently the other chaplains are able to make inspirational statements in staff meetings without violating the employer's guidelines.

The "well, if I can't say whatever I want at the staff meeting, I'm being oppressed" attitude is based on a sense of entitlement that is absurd.

Apparently the other chaplains are able to make inspirational statements in staff meetings without violating the employer's guidelines.

The "well, if I can't say whatever I want at the staff meeting, I'm being oppressed" attitude is based on a sense of entitlement that is absurd.

But...but...I thought only minorities and hippies had a sense of entitlement:eek:

No, they're only as bad as MOST make them out to be. Language is constructed by consensus.I'm talking on more of a personal level. Of course me deciding that those words aren't bad doesn't change the consensus.

Luna was talking about the way it makes one feel personally though so I don't see how your comment makes a difference.

That is if i'm understanding him/her correctlyExactly.

There is a methodology for testing how firmly you hold this belief, but the NS:G TOS doesn't allow me to demonstrate it.Damn rules.

I'm just trying to be realist and mature with this post, regarding the language thing... You think that by shutting up some racist jerk who will use the n-word, you're going to change him or the world? Maybe if he doesn't say it, he's gonna be such a nice guy... right? :rolleyes:

Damn rules.

I know, right?

I'm just trying to be realist and mature with this post, regarding the language thing... You think that by shutting up some racist jerk who will use the n-word, you're going to change him or the world? Maybe if he doesn't say it, he's gonna be such a nice guy... right? :rolleyes:

Actually - yes.

Human interactions are shaped by human experience - including such obvious things as - how we relate to one another, but also, such subtleties as - how we express ideas to ourselves.

If you can 'train' someone to not speak in certain terms, you can shape how they think... and if you can shape how they think, you can make them a better person.

From my experience, it makes them more devious. And usually the ones who prohibited them will end up on the surprise scale. ;)

And teh ebil Atheist are winning, oh noez! :eek:
(How the fuck are we "winning" anyway? :D)
Beats me. Your strategy seems to not be working too well...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Atheist_Pamphlet.jpg

... during staff meetings. However, if I had put that in the title, you wouldn't have come in here would you? No....

Here's a source: Linky~ (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/community/news/bocaraton/sfl-flphospice0318pnmar18,0,5601993.story?makesperfectsense)



What say you NSG? Reasonable, or ridiculous?

EDIT: By the way, this *is* in Florida.

How does that make sense? He's a chaplain; God is basically technical vocabulary.

How does that make sense? He's a chaplain; God is basically technical vocabulary.

Let's examine that.

Imagine I'm the IT dude with the company.

Imagine the boss asking me if I can do a motivational speech for him?

Imagine, further, that he also says something along the lines of "Oh, and can you leave the tech-speak out of it, so you don't make any of the non-techies feel dumb?"

Now - imagine me quitting my job over it.

I actually have to agree with the chaplain... his job is a religious job, I think if he is allowed to use religiously sensitive words with 'customers' than using the same language with fellow employees at official meetings should pose no problems... it's not like it should really be that unexpected, when you think about it; "Oh, that religious guy who fills an officially religious post at my place of business is talking about religion again."

That I must agree with. If you are a cleric, and are told to give a prayer or inspirational message before a group, naturally you will invoke a higher power of some sort. Most people, even athiests, refer to this higher power as God.

they should just hire David Letterman.

he says "oh my god" every night, and nobody seems to mind at all.
:D

It's the War On God!Have i ever mentioned Judges, iron chariots and Legos when this issue comes up?
Memory's not as good as it used to be.

they should just hire David Letterman.

he says "oh my god" every night, and nobody seems to mind at all.
:DWell, that's because it's Dave's god.
You know, the same argument some folk have about "sense of humour" regarding the platypus (which isn't as funny if you take a hit of their venom, btw)

Let's examine that.

Imagine I'm the IT dude with the company.

Imagine the boss asking me if I can do a motivational speech for him?

Imagine, further, that he also says something along the lines of "Oh, and can you leave the tech-speak out of it, so you don't make any of the non-techies feel dumb?"

Now - imagine me quitting my job over it.

False. The chaplain making a motivational speech and not being allowed to invoke God is NOT like the IT guy making a motivational speech. A better comparison would be the IT guy making a presentation of the new website design and engine and being expected to leave out the tech-speak. It's part of the IT guy's job to talk about code since it is a technical position. By the same token, part of the chaplain's job is to talk about God since chaplain is a religious position.

False. The chaplain making a motivational speech and not being allowed to invoke God is NOT like the IT guy making a motivational speech. A better comparison would be the IT guy making a presentation of the new website design and engine and being expected to leave out the tech-speak. It's part of the IT guy's job to talk about code since it is a technical position. By the same token, part of the chaplain's job is to talk about God since chaplain is a religious position.

That's funny. I thought it was the employer that defined what is someone's job.

False. The chaplain making a motivational speech and not being allowed to invoke God is NOT like the IT guy making a motivational speech. A better comparison would be the IT guy making a presentation of the new website design and engine and being expected to leave out the tech-speak. It's part of the IT guy's job to talk about code since it is a technical position. By the same token, part of the chaplain's job is to talk about God since chaplain is a religious position.

So, you're arguing that a preacher's job is not some religious duty, not some sacred rite... but is, in fact, a specially loaded kind of motivational speaking?

I mean - I'm not entirely disagreeing with you - but I don't see how it would help your case.

IT guys describing the current server status, and being asked to do it in laymans terms... happens ALL the time. Religious dude, saying "stay chipper, old fruit"... apparently too much to ask, without religion?

So, you're arguing that a preacher's job is not some religious duty, not some sacred rite... but is, in fact, a specially loaded kind of motivational speaking?

I mean - I'm not entirely disagreeing with you - but I don't see how it would help your case.

IT guys describing the current server status, and being asked to do it in laymans terms... happens ALL the time. Religious dude, saying "stay chipper, old fruit"... apparently too much to ask, without religion?But why hire a chaplain to give motivational speeches if you want to keep it secular?

But why hire a chaplain to give motivational speeches if you want to keep it secular?

I assume he was hired to be a chaplain.

Which doesn't mean you can't ever ask him to do anything except preach.

I assume he was hired to be a chaplain.

Which doesn't mean you can't ever ask him to do anything except preach.

However, if you ask a chaplain to give a "motivational" speech, there's a strong probability that his personal "motivation" has a lot to do with God, so why wouldn't be impart that to others?

However, if you ask a chaplain to give a "motivational" speech, there's a strong probability that his personal "motivation" has a lot to do with God, so why wouldn't be impart that to others?

Because you, as the signer of his paychecks, asked him not to.

There are thousands of motivational speakers out there making way more money than they probably should, and they, by and large, seem to be able to avoid invoking God. It is a simple enough matter to say something motivating without referring to religion.

Because you, as the signer of his paychecks, asked him not to.

There are thousands of motivational speakers out there making way more money than they probably should, and they, by and large, seem to be able to avoid invoking God. It is a simple enough matter to say something motivating without referring to religion.

I'm sure that if I took my clothes off slowly while making a speech, there would be a motivational effect on some members of the audience.

Sorry about the bad pun there.

That's funny. I thought it was the employer that defined what is someone's job.

So, you're arguing that a preacher's job is not some religious duty, not some sacred rite... but is, in fact, a specially loaded kind of motivational speaking?

I mean - I'm not entirely disagreeing with you - but I don't see how it would help your case.

IT guys describing the current server status, and being asked to do it in laymans terms... happens ALL the time. Religious dude, saying "stay chipper, old fruit"... apparently too much to ask, without religion?

Well, I supposed since I've invoked the two kung-fu masters, and you're both right, I'll concede the point.

UGH!! The MAN...Always trying to keep people from Talking about me....

Perhaps if you don't want a religious message, you don't ask a chaplain to give an inspirational speech? Or you say specifically, "not religious".

It's like me asking a cmoic book artist to give a speech, then slapping him down for talking about characters, penciling, or inking.

Perhaps if you don't want a religious message, you don't ask a chaplain to give an inspirational speech? Or you say specifically, "not religious".

It's like me asking a cmoic book artist to give a speech, then slapping him down for talking about characters, penciling, or inking.

Except every other Chaplin seemed to be capable of doing it.

If you're not specific about what you want, you should not be surprised that people are not mindreaders.

If you want a medical opinion, asking a doctor is not unreasonable. If you want a political opinion, a pundit or politician is the one to ask. If you ask them to speak without specifying what you want them to talk about, being shocked that they talked about their specialty and then censuring them is stupid.

I don't think the chaplain was batty for leaving -- if you didn't tell me to avoid something that I would reasonably expect I was asked to talk about, then scold me after the fact, I'd be annoyed too.

Do let's not be obtuse and realize that inspirational, to a priest, a pastor, et cetera, is a synonym for "centering around faith and religion."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inspirational

If that's not what you want, "motivational" should have been clearer. "Non religious" should have been clearest still.

If you're not specific about what you want, you should not be surprised that people are not mindreaders.

If you want a medical opinion, asking a doctor is not unreasonable. If you want a political opinion, a pundit or politician is the one to ask. If you ask them to speak without specifying what you want them to talk about, being shocked that they talked about their specialty and then censuring them is stupid.

I don't think the chaplain was batty for leaving -- if you didn't tell me to avoid something that I would reasonably expect I was asked to talk about, then scold me after the fact, I'd be annoyed too.

Do let's not be obtuse and realize that inspirational, to a priest, a pastor, et cetera, is a synonym for "centering around faith and religion."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inspirational

If that's not what you want, "motivational" should have been clearer. "Non religious" should have been clearest still.

They did tell him. They were clear. He threw a fit and quit in a huff.

Every other priest seemed to be ok with it once they were told the rules.

"He" is actually a she, and I'm sorry, a chaplain is not necessarily a priest, and if you want a pep talk perhaps a member of the clergy is not the one to ask.

"He" is actually a she, and I'm sorry, if you want a pep talk perhaps a clergyman is not the one to ask.

Why hire someone else when someone who can speak to a crowd is already on the payroll?

They asked her to give a speech, and she threw a fit and quit because she couldnt mention God per her employers request.

What really bothers you? That they asked her in the first place or that they asked her not to say God?

She was singled out for delivering a spiritual reflection in a chapel -- a place where people could reasonably expect to hear religious terms. So said the article.

Guidelines do not prevent them from mentioning God. It's also arguably a 1st Amendment issue. So says the article.

The hospice itself is saying it didn't bar God... so complaining that she mentioned the Lord in the 23rd Psalm is ridiculous. So says the article.

That's what bothers me. What is so unreasonable about understanding why asking for an inspirational speech, then directing a chaplain not to mention God publicly, isn't a ridiculous restriction?

What bothers you? That there's actually a question whether the hospice reacted reasonably?

"Give a lecture on economics. Just don't mention money."

"Teach grammar. Just don't mention nouns or adjectives."

Before getting into a battle over what the original article does and does not say and whether what it says is good or bad, let me add some evidence to the discussion.

Hospice by the Sea's statement (http://www.hospicebytheseafl.org/html/statement.html):

STATEMENT FROM HOSPICE BY THE SEA
Paula J. Alderson, President and CEO
March 18, 2009

It has been brought to our attention that a former colleague, Chaplain Mirta M. Signorelli, MA, circulated a letter stating that Hospice by the Sea asked its chaplains to “cease from using the word ‘God’ in organizational prayers.” Chaplain Signorelli’s letter went on to imply that this request also restricted reference to God when our chaplains are caring for the needs of our patients and their families.

That is not the case.

There is absolutely no change to the way we and our chaplain corps care for our patients; nor has there been any directive, implicit or implied, that restricts chaplains from referring to God.

Here are the facts. Hospice by the Sea has monthly all-staff meetings. For the past few months members of the Spiritual Care staff helped us close the meetings with a few words of inspiration and motivation.

Our workplace, as most, is a diverse collection of people with different backgrounds and beliefs. Out of respect for our employees, who are expected to attend the all-staff meetings, we suggested that the messages be inspirational but not religious. This was not a directive – it was simply a suggestion and only applied to monthly all-staff meetings.

A core component of the care we provide our patients and their families is emotional and spiritual support. The specific nature of that support is directed by the patient and family. Hospice administration places no restrictions on our spiritual care staff when dealing with patients and their families.

Hospice by the Sea has been serving the community since 1979. We are a not-for-profit organization dedicated to providing compassionate care for patients living with life-limiting conditions; as well as providing psychological, social, and spiritual support for their families. This is why hospice exists: To help patients live in comfort and to the fullest for as long as they live.


Hospice by the Sea's Senior Chaplain Fred Mortensen's statement (http://www.hospicebytheseafl.org/html/fredsstatement.html):

STATEMENT FROM FRED MORTENSEN, SENIOR CHAPLAIN
Hospice by the Sea
March 18, 2009

Hospice is a collection of services including medical, nursing, psychological and spiritual. Beyond that it is a life-affirming philosophy that exists on the crossroad of living and dying. It is a rare privilege to us as Spiritual Care Counselors at Hospice by the Sea to be invited into the lives of patients and families as they navigate that crossroad.

The recent attention drawn by Chaplain Mirta Signorelli to the use of specific religious or spiritual language now gives us the opportunity to clarify exactly where we stand. What is the policy surrounding the use of specific religious terms or titles? There is no policy.

Chaplain Signorelli’s statement that Hospice by the Sea has restricted use of the word ‘God’ or any deity is wrong.

The only time the issue has risen among our hospice team has been concerning all-staff meetings that do not in any way include patients or families. Spiritual Care Counselors are provided the opportunity to offer a brief word of encouragement to the staff at these meetings. Our administration reminded us that our staff is a diverse group. We have many traditions, backgrounds and beliefs represented. That is a huge part of our strength in the communities we serve. The suggestion – not a policy, not a directive – was that we remember this as we provide ongoing support to the entire staff. We want to include everyone and exclude no one. The suggestion only referred to our participation in monthly all-staff meetings. In no way was it intended by administration as applying to patient care. The Spiritual Care team, with the exception of Chaplain Signorelli, understood this.

At Hospice by the Sea every single expression of faith, spirituality, culture, and tradition is permitted and encouraged. Any language appropriate to that expression is permitted and encouraged. Any name by which people identify their core beliefs is permitted and encouraged. Whether that expression involves many words and meaningful ritual, or silence and no ritual, it is permitted and encouraged. All these expressions are accepted by the entire Interdisciplinary Team that serves them.

The community should remain confident that the patients and families we serve will continue to be offered Spiritual Care in all its possibilities and expressions as they so desire. We remain proud and committed to serve the mission of Hospice by the Sea.

Unless both the Hospice and the Senior Chaplain are lying, Rev. Signorelli completely misunderstood the Hospice's policies, overreacted, and/or both.

She was singled out for delivering a spiritual reflection in a chapel -- a place where people could reasonably expect to hear religious terms. So said the article.

Guidelines do not prevent them from mentioning God. It's also arguably a 1st Amendment issue. So says the article.

The hospice itself is saying it didn't bar God... so complaining that she mentioned the Lord in the 23rd Psalm is ridiculous. So says the article.

That's what bothers me. What is so unreasonable about understanding why asking for an inspirational speech, then directing a chaplain not to mention God publicly, isn't a ridiculous restriction?

What bothers you? That there's actually a question whether the hospice reacted reasonably?

"Give a lecture on economics. Just don't mention money."

"Teach grammar. Just don't mention nouns or adjectives."

You appear to not only be taking the complaining Reverend's allegations at face value, but adding to them.

You ignore that Rev. Signorelli herself admits the other chaplains had no problem with the alleged policies of the hospice.

And, pray tell, what is the First Amendment issue involved when a private employer asks an employee not to use certain language in the workplace?

That's what bothers me. What is so unreasonable about understanding why asking for an inspirational speech, then directing a chaplain not to mention God publicly, isn't a ridiculous restriction?


I'm an Atheist. When asked to give a motivational speech, I've managed to do so several times without pointing out any of the fundamental inconsistencies that make the Bible untrue, or explaining (or even mentioning) the lack of God.

Because 'motivational' doesn't actually have any intrinsic requirement to be a statement of your personal religious faith.


"Give a lecture on economics. Just don't mention money."

"Teach grammar. Just don't mention nouns or adjectives."

One could argue that a speech about economics needs to mention money, in some capacity. No such argument exists for one person's personal faith, in regards to collective motivation.