NationStates Jolt Archive

seems Europe needs to catch up with the times
What are these "times" you speak of? Are police officers often shot at in most European countries? What is the mortality rate for police officers in Germany, for example?

Cost about the same as putting the police anywhere else you have a group of people who need to be protected. Actually cheaper then having them on patrol because they are not driving around using up gas.
Are you aware of how many schools there are in Germany alone?

saving teenage lives is so pointless???
Do you think so? Because I haven't said that. I've been saying that school shootings doesn't have a tendency to happen very often in Germany, so there's really no point in boosting police presence at the schools. (Especially not if they have a response time of 2 minutes. That kinda impresses me.)

about the same as your view that an officer would be useless against an assailant.
Not really. I've never said it would be "useless" to have an officer present.

I've said there would be little point to it because school shootings rarely happen in Germany.

Not really. Even the person on campus would have to be notified somehow, and find where the shooter is.

Given how rare gunfire apparently is in Europe, I would think that the gunshots themselves would be notification enough. Then you've got screams, crying, and other sources of noise.

And having just one armed person on campus, would that be enough here? He shot several police officers, did he not?

He did shoot two officers (according to the original article) once he was at an auto dealership and had gunned down two other civilians. This is something that would have been prevented had he been taken down at the school.

For all those rambos here who keep touting about how the teachers should have a gun, or how they would have stopped it if they had a gun. Why don't you bother reading into the story? The kid's father was a member of a "Schützenverein," in short, a gun club where the members meet several times a week to fire off weapons in a firing range. With the most accurate Schütze (shooter) being adorned with medals and being called Schützenkönig (King shooter) during the Festivals (Schützenfest) that these clubs orchestrate. These gunclubs are an old and traditional part of German culture, hence why there are over 2 million members.

A quick picture and video summary of said clubs;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl9mOd7pZTQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMRVMGbfR7c

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Sch%C3%BCtzenfest_Fackel.jpg&filetimestamp=20080713230212

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Sch%C3%BCtzen_Hannover_gr%C3%BCn.jpg&filetimestamp=20080712225848

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Schuetzenkoenige.jpg&filetimestamp=20070904092247

What does this have to do with the kid? Well apparently he also took part in the gun club, and hence had plenty of practice on the gun range. What more? The father built a private gun range in the basement. Meaning the said kid not only went to the firing range with his father as a member. He also could train his accuracy in his own basement. Hence, why as it explains in the reports that he was able to spar off with the police and keep them in check. For any teacher with a gun, who maybe went to the firing range once a month or so as part of a program to familiarize them with guns. Well.....said teacher most likely wouldn't have survived the encounter with this student.

arming teachers is dumb. A most don't want a gun. B in the course of teaching the weapon may be susceptible to being stolen by a student.
besides schools are places of learning and should be free of weapons except for uniformed officers.

I re-read the article. I didn't see anything about police response time. If, however, they managed to make it in 5 minutes, which I doubt, I'd like to see a source for that.

In any case, you'd have to give the kid credit for killing fifteen people and escaping the building, causing the police to have to execute a manhunt, in only five minutes.

Also, I don't know how big your campuses are, but I think I could run end-to-end from my high school (longways, was kind of a rectangular building) in less than two minutes.

...
Rech said police arrived in minutes. "This speedy intervention means they prevented further escalation of events."

The shooting at the Albertville-Realschule Winnenden school began around 9:45 a.m. (0845 GMT) and lasted about two minutes.
...
Source (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/11/germany.school.shooting/index.html)

Apparently, two minutes wouldn't have been enough.
After all, the kid had a gun, not just a knife or axe.

...
Rech said police arrived in minutes. "This speedy intervention means they prevented further escalation of events."

The shooting at the Albertville-Realschule Winnenden school began around 9:45 a.m. (0845 GMT) and lasted about two minutes.
...
Source (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/11/germany.school.shooting/index.html)

Apparently, two minutes wouldn't have been enough.
After all, the kid had a gun, not just a knife or axe.

Assuming I happened to be on the entire other end of the campus. Generally, the principal's office is in the center of the building, and that's where he spends most of his time.

Also, it took two minutes for the police to arrive at the scene - that does not count the time to penetrate and cross the building themselves (as necessary). Ergo, it's perfectly reasonable that it took two minutes longer for the police to show up where the shooter actually is than someone who was already on scene.

This is something that would have been prevented had he been taken down at the school.

And of course, all of this could have been prevented if he's been stopped before he started. Kinda goes without saying, doesn't it?

And of course, all of this could have been prevented if he's been stopped before he started. Kinda goes without saying, doesn't it?

Granted, but that's an area of psychological support and care for school children, and another discussion entirely.

Don't you tanstaafl me! ooooo... I just want to point out that we already have in place excellent facilities and resources at our local police departments to train and qualify a handful of volunteer teachers at every school in our nation. Of course, its not free. But I bet you it would be cheap, perhaps cheaper than having full time armed security guards at schools like they do in some places.

So your police budgets can afford fantastic training centres across the country, but it takes the police 30 minutes to respond to an incident. The facts seem incongruous.

I love the feel of grain
The screams of a man in pain
Blood coming down like rain showering me
That ever-lasting thrill
During the final kill
Body dumped in a landfill
Got off scott-free...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNZzJELbFRI&feature=channel_page

arming teachers is dumb. A most don't want a gun. B in the course of teaching the weapon may be susceptible to being stolen by a student.
besides schools are places of learning and should be free of weapons except for uniformed officers.
A Gun-Free Zone is just another way of saying defensless. Columbine happened in a Gun-Free Zone. Hell, every school shooting has. And why the fuck should pig cops get to walk the halls with guns, tackle students for having a bad haircut, shove said gun in the kid's face, and strip search for drugs on a whim?

Don't think it can or would happen? It already has. The raid on Goose Creek didn't turn up one joint, bong, wad of cash, gun, or any other questionable property. There is security footage of local law enforcement tackling students and shoving guns in their faces to "protect them" from potential violations of the myriad zero-tolerance policies. Fuck, there are few things I dislike more than those walking ham hocks.

A Gun-Free Zone is just another way of saying defensless.

So Europe is defenseless?

So Europe is defenseless?

yes. Russia is invading next week.

So Europe is defenseless?
Defenseless? Not completely. In some countries like Germany there are still shooting clubs that practice regularly. And the countries aren't defenseless as they still have militaries. But most of the people in most of Western Europe are defenseless, yes.

The real reason for the Second Amendment in the US Constitution was to allow the people to arm themselves to defend themselves from threats to their liberty. The well-regulated militia is the uniformed military and at least some of the founders considered that a potential threat to the independence that they had just fought for so they put it in the Constitution that the government couldn't take away the right of the people to keep and bear arms should the need to revolt ever arise.

Defenseless? Not completely. In some countries like Germany there are still shooting clubs that practice regularly. And the countries aren't defenseless as they still have militaries. But most of the people in most of Western Europe are defenseless, yes.

The real reason for the Second Amendment in the US Constitution was to allow the people to arm themselves to defend themselves from threats to their liberty. The well-regulated militia is the uniformed military and at least some of the founders considered that a potential threat to the independence that they had just fought for so they put it in the Constitution that the government couldn't take away the right of the people to keep and bear arms should the need to revolt ever arise.

I have already seen my end. going to look a lot like Ruby ridge. Me refusing to pay taxes or credit off. and just being holed up on a mountain with my guns and emergency rations.

I have already seen my end. going to look a lot like Ruby ridge. Me refusing to pay taxes or credit off. and just being holed up on a mountain with my guns and emergency rations.

Unless you strike first!

Unless you strike first!

nah. let them come to me. just want to have as much of an education as possible before they do, so its a bigger waste of society when they shoot me.

Defenseless? Not completely. In some countries like Germany there are still shooting clubs that practice regularly. And the countries aren't defenseless as they still have militaries. But most of the people in most of Western Europe are defenseless, yes.

I guess that's why the crime rates, and especially murder rates, are so much higher among the defenseless Europeans... ;)

I guess that's why the crime rates, and especially murder rates, are so much higher among the defenseless Europeans... ;)
Well they used to be. I seem to remeber that England and France were in a century long murder-fest at one point. And then there was that whole dark-ages thing. If you mean today then yeah, Europe does tend toward a lower murder rate but the Swiss actually arm their citizens with assault rifles (assault rifle asbeing defined as a rifle capable of fully automatic fire, looks aren't worth a damn) and train them to be efficient killers with them. They also have a drastically lower murder and general crime rate than the United States. You can't just blame guns because crime has a hell of a lot more to do with the people weilding the weapon than the weapon itself.

You can't just blame guns because crime has a hell of a lot more to do with the people weilding the weapon than the weapon itself.

So the lack of guns simply mean people are defenseless, but the presence of guns can't be said to cause crime because the picture then suddenly becomes more complex?

So the lack of guns simply mean people are defenseless, but the presence of guns can't be said to cause crime because the picture then suddenly becomes more complex?
A tool should never be blamed for an action. When you deny someone the means to self-defense you deny them the right of sef-defense. Frankly, I don't trust cops. I've seen what they do; I've seen them raid the wrong houses, I've seen them raid the right houses/schools and find nothing, I've even been a victim of a cop abusing his power (he stopped me for not wearing a seatbelt even though it's a secondary offense in MN and then made up a moving violation when I decided to challenge). I don't want to put my life in the hands of some goddamn pigs who would sooner shoot everyone and plant evidence to cover their ass than distinguish who is an isn't a target and protect me.

Keep in mind that there is still murder in Europe, they just have resorted to knives, clubs, lamps, and illegally acquired guns. You can't ban a useful invention and you won't change human nature by passing any law. The drug wars prove that much.

Keep in mind that there is still murder in Europe

At drastically lower rates...

A tool should never be blamed for an action. When you deny someone the means to self-defense you deny them the right of sef-defense. Frankly, I don't trust cops. I've seen what they do; I've seen them raid the wrong houses, I've seen them raid the right houses/schools and find nothing, I've even been a victim of a cop abusing his power (he stopped me for not wearing a seatbelt even though it's a secondary offense in MN and then made up a moving violation when I decided to challenge). I don't want to put my life in the hands of some goddamn pigs who would sooner shoot everyone and plant evidence to cover their ass than distinguish who is an isn't a target and protect me.


are you questioning the police state?
I am sending the police to deal with you.

It's just sad when Europeans try to rip off American culture.
And are more "successful" at it too.

Of course gun clubs originated in America.

Epic quote: "Guns are our sports equipment. Of course they are weapons, but so are golf clubs, tennis rackets and broken bottles." o/ o/ o/

A tool should never be blamed for an action. When you deny someone the means to self-defense you deny them the right of sef-defense. Frankly, I don't trust cops. I've seen what they do; I've seen them raid the wrong houses, I've seen them raid the right houses/schools and find nothing, I've even been a victim of a cop abusing his power (he stopped me for not wearing a seatbelt even though it's a secondary offense in MN and then made up a moving violation when I decided to challenge). I don't want to put my life in the hands of some goddamn pigs who would sooner shoot everyone and plant evidence to cover their ass than distinguish who is an isn't a target and protect me.

Keep in mind that there is still murder in Europe, they just have resorted to knives, clubs, lamps, and illegally acquired guns. You can't ban a useful invention and you won't change human nature by passing any law. The drug wars prove that much.

So you don't trust the police. Fair enough. Yet somehow you seem to be willing to trust absolutely everyone else with something as lethal as a gun... while I personally don't.
I trust neither the police, nor the rest of the population, far enough to carry any kind of firearms.

Keep in mind that there is still murder in Europe, they just have resorted to knives, clubs, lamps, and illegally acquired guns.If guns are just a tool easily replaced by something else (My favourite example: A pillow) - use this something else to defend yourself. Those things tend to be cheaper, too.You can't ban a useful invention and you won't change human nature by passing any law. The drug wars prove that much.While the former is true, the latter is not. Restricting gun ownership in countries such as, say, Germany (In the seventies), has had remarkably positive effects as far as (Lack of) killing is concerned.

A tool should never be blamed for an action. When you deny someone the means to self-defense you deny them the right of sef-defense. Frankly, I don't trust cops. I've seen what they do; I've seen them raid the wrong houses, I've seen them raid the right houses/schools and find nothing, I've even been a victim of a cop abusing his power (he stopped me for not wearing a seatbelt even though it's a secondary offense in MN and then made up a moving violation when I decided to challenge). I don't want to put my life in the hands of some goddamn pigs who would sooner shoot everyone and plant evidence to cover their ass than distinguish who is an isn't a target and protect me.

Keep in mind that there is still murder in Europe, they just have resorted to knives, clubs, lamps, and illegally acquired guns. You can't ban a useful invention and you won't change human nature by passing any law. The drug wars prove that much.


It's interesting though... Without guns, the people in Europe are defenseless. Murders still happen with other tools - though it's apparantly impossible to defend oneself in other ways than to use guns - but at a generally lower rate than in an armed society, so we need to arm the society to protect it. We can't possibly be thinking about banning a useful invention, because then we'd be defenseless. (let's not talk about restrictions!)

That western Europe generally has a lower crime rate is obviously due to complex issues, but the only way to defend oneself against events that hardly ever occur is with a gun and arming the populace. Because we can trust the people. Sure can't trust the people who become cops though! Because you've had some (one?) bad experiences with cops, they must all be trigger happy and corrupt everywhere. Yes, even where the cops don't carry guns, obviously.

Did I leave anything out?