NationStates Jolt Archive

Just something that's been on my mind for a while, so I thought I'd make a thread about it.

I don't think one can really argue that Star Trek and Star Wars are the two most popular science fiction/science fantasy universes in the world right now. Nor can one deny that their has been a long-running Star Trek vs Star Wars debate, along with a good deal of fan fiction on the topic. Finally, I doubt one can deny that their have been reasonably successful crossover games in the past (Alien vs Predator). Hell, their have even been Star Trek vs Star Wars mods for other games. And if a professional one were ever made, it might be one of the most successful games in history (depending on a variety of factors, I'll admit).

So, I have three questions: Why haven't Lucasfilms and Paramount gotten together and made such a game, would you buy it if they did, and finally, if George Lucas gave you complete control over the production of such a game, what would you do?

I'll withhold comment until others have had a chance to reply. If no one else finds this topic worth commenting on, I will record my views for posterity.:)

One word: Wanking.

The Star Wars fanboys and the Star Trek fanboys would have violent internet outbursts over the way game balance is struck. The Trekkies will feel that that they can blast Super Star Destroyers in a single shot from the defiant, while the Warsies will feel the same way about Tie Fighters vs the Enterprise.

In short, parents' basements everywhere will be struck with angst and frustration no matter how the balance is tinkered.

It's also about as structurally coherent as Street Fighter versus Pokemon.

They both are in space and both have spaceships and aliens. That's the only similarity I can think of, but way too much different. Also, 'there'.

They both are in space and both have spaceships and aliens. That's the only similarity I can think of, but way too much different. Also, 'there'.

Thanks, but I already know my spelling sucks.

Ok, the balance issue is a valid concern, so I'll address that first.

Its true that whatever you do some fans will be offended. However, they are probably in a minority. As I see it, you can break most fans down into four groups here (and I speak from experience, having some interest in this nerdiest of topics as some of you may know).

Groups one: hardcore vs debaters. Might or might not be put off by game balance.

Group two: people who like one or both series, and either don't know about the vs debate or take a fairly neutral approach. More likely to play the game because they like one or both series and don't really care about the vs debate.

Group three: people who are raving slobbering fanboys, and will buy anything with the franchise lable on it (far, far too many I fear). Their position should be obvious.;)

Group four: partisans who still recognize the importance of game balance over 100% realism, and will play it as long as its a fun game.

As you can see, most of these groups would probably not find balancing issues an insurmountable barrier to enjoying a good game. Moreover, the debater's positions would not be greatly threatened, since under Paramount's rules only the movies and TV series have canon status, and under Lucas's policy, games have some standing but are at the bottom of the scale, with only things like the overall story having status, but not game mechanics. And if nessissary, Lucas could probably just slap the "Infinities" label on it, effectively relegating it to alt-universe status if I understand the policy correctly.

Regarding the differences between both universes, that is not an insumountable barrier. Their are quite a few similarities, some of which I shall list here:

1. Both feature practical and widely available interstellar travle.

2. Both feature large interstellar empires, with both good guy and bad guy factions.

3. Both have world and solar system-destroying WMDs.

4. Both have bizzare psychic powers, though these fall under different names.

Also, while their is a great deal of difference between the two, the difference between, say, the Empire and the Federation is probably less that the disparity between, say, the Federation and the Q. And finally, the two universes have been combined, repeatedly. I've read Star Trek vs Star Wars fanfiction that, with a good editor at least, would likely eclipse numerous published best-sellers in many respects (though literary taste can be somewhat subjective, I am more than willing to provide links to back up this claim). Moreover, their are existing Star Trek vs Star Wars mods out their already (sadly I have not played them due to them being for games that won't run on my computer).

A bigger barrier would potentially be the copyright issues, but their is nothing inherrently unworkable about the concept.

Thanks, but I already know my spelling sucks.


Nah it's fine impart from that.

Nah it's fine impart from that.

I believe you mean apart. Impart means to lend or share.

I believe you mean apart. Impart means to lend or share.

Welcome to Nationstates. Not bad for a first post.:)

I believe you mean apart. Impart means to lend or share.

fffffffuuuuuuuuu

It's also about as structurally coherent as Street Fighter versus Pokemon.

thank you for the image of...

SHO-RU-KEN!!!
PIIII-KAAAA-CHU!!!

:headbang:

Just something that's been on my mind for a while, so I thought I'd make a thread about it.

I don't think one can really argue that Star Trek and Star Wars are the two most popular science fiction/science fantasy universes in the world right now. Nor can one deny that their has been a long-running Star Trek vs Star Wars debate, along with a good deal of fan fiction on the topic. Finally, I doubt one can deny that their have been reasonably successful crossover games in the past (Alien vs Predator). Hell, their have even been Star Trek vs Star Wars mods for other games. And if a professional one were ever made, it might be one of the most successful games in history (depending on a variety of factors, I'll admit).

So, I have three questions: Why haven't Lucasfilms and Paramount gotten together and made such a game, would you buy it if they did, and finally, if George Lucas gave you complete control over the production of such a game, what would you do?

I'll withhold comment until others have had a chance to reply. If no one else finds this topic worth commenting on, I will record my views for posterity.:)

Well since a star destroyer could easily kick the Enterprise' ass, it wouldn't be much of a game....



*runs*

Meh, as long as an awesome plot-line for the game was hammered out with input from both rick berman and george lucas I think the disrepencies between the two universes could be overcome. Afterall star trek, ds9 and voyager as good TV show as they are they aren't even consistent within their own universe so a couple more inconsistencies won't be a problem ... at least nothing they can't write around. I mean waited until enterprise to explain why TOS klingons don't have ridges and TNG klingons do! No one cared. I don't think anyone except the über geeky will care if suddenly Star Destroyers can see ships traveling at faster than light...

One word: Wanking.

The Star Wars fanboys and the Star Trek fanboys would have violent internet outbursts over the way game balance is struck. The Trekkies will feel that that they can blast Super Star Destroyers in a single shot from the defiant, while the Warsies will feel the same way about Tie Fighters vs the Enterprise.

Agreed. The trekkies have the argument that their 'phasers' are much more powerful than any 'laser' (Picard made such a comment once), and so Star Trek must automatically win, right?

The Warsies (among whom I count myself) would argue that thousands of TIE Fighters, and a half dozen Star Destroyers (Imp Mark II) could take on any Star Trek fleet, the Enterprise has room for about 2,000 people... one Star Destroyer has room for almost 40,000 people (mostly Stormtroopers) that size ratio, coupled with the sheer number of Star Destroyers (of various makes and models) makes it very clear that Star Wars would pwn everything.

So... who wins? I guess you could make it balanced... the Enterprise has massively powerful weapons... but only what, three, four phaser banks? compared to 60 heavy turbolaser batteries of lower power, ok, thats all fine and good... but who would actually want balance? I know plenty of people that like both franchises, but no one I know rides the fence, one of the two is a favorite, and balancing both sides means the better side is shortchanged.

Maybe if it were done as a shooter (you know, a shooter that is half-serious, but well-done, and made by a good company, fun to play, but not meant to be a realistic game).

Well since a star destroyer could easily kick the Enterprise' ass, it wouldn't be much of a game....



*runs*

As long as the Star Destroyer crew is smart enough to blow up the Main Deflector Dish first.

don't forget... Phasers vs Lightsabers!

with input from... george lucas....

Or... if we never let George Lucas have any input in anything ever again. That would also be good.

don't forget... Phasers vs Lightsabers!

Yeah, you're right, I didn't even think about that.


There's no way this game would be balanced without making it ultra-lame.

don't forget... Phasers vs Lightsabers!

Redshirts versus Stormtroopers.

It would actually be a cinematic duel...

... to see which side can kill themselves off first.

Yeah, you're right, I didn't even think about that.


There's no way this game would be balanced without making it ultra-lame.

Presumably Jedi would'nt be around for the space battles... nor would the Q.

That or the Q would be the greatest playable faction ever. EVER!

"Alright, I'll build one infantry unit... a Q, let's see here, engage enemy fleet, I win the campaign."

Redshirts versus Stormtroopers.

It would actually be a cinematic duel...

... to see which side can kill themselves off first.

That makes me sad because Stormtroopers were supposed to be formidable.

Then again, I suppose the plot suggested that redshirts had recieved any prior training either.

Meh, as long as an awesome plot-line for the game was hammered out with input from both rick berman and george lucas I think the disrepencies between the two universes could be overcome.

No, keep Berman out. Bring back the DS9 writers if you want a good story. Berman ran Star Trek into the ground.

Afterall star trek, ds9 and voyager as good TV show as they are they aren't even consistent within their own universe so a couple more inconsistencies won't be a problem ... at least nothing they can't write around.

I think one should try, especially when creating a fictional universe where suspension of disbelief is already likely to be strained, to be as consistant as possible. However, as I explain below, these inconsistancy can potentially be put to good use in this case.

I mean waited until enterprise to explain why TOS klingons don't have ridges and TNG klingons do! No one cared. I don't think anyone except the über geeky will care if suddenly Star Destroyers can see ships traveling at faster than light...

Well actually their's some evidence that Star Destroyers can track FTL ships.

Which simply shows that their are so many different interpretations of each universe, and so many inconsistancies, that you can simply pick the ones that give you a ballanced game. For example, one could accept that Star Wars ships are faster and have bigger guns, but simply assume that Borg transporters penetrate Star Wars shields as easily as Federation ones, even thought their's no way to prove that that is the case. Or you can look at the movie Generations, where the Romulans are interested in aquiring Star Destroying torpedos, and simply assume, not unreasonably, that 20 years down the line they succeded. And now, the Romulans have a counter to the Death Star. You might not even need to break canon for balancing; just bend probability by choosing, whenever their is room for doubt, the interpretation that achieves the greatest degree of balance.

Note also that balance does not mean both sides have to be more or less the same (as some game designers seem to believe). You could instead have two sides with radically different technologies that could both achieve victory, but would have to go about it in radically different ways.

Its like any historical wargame. How many of us know or care if Age of Empires or Rome: Total War is completely realistic? Complete bullshit is not to be tollerated, nor is laziness or insulting the player's intelligence, but if they change the military capabilities of a faction a little in order to balance the game, is it a big problem? Just treat the game as alt history, and keep playing.

Agreed. The trekkies have the argument that their 'phasers' are much more powerful than any 'laser' (Picard made such a comment once), and so Star Trek must automatically win, right?

The Warsies (among whom I count myself) would argue that thousands of TIE Fighters, and a half dozen Star Destroyers (Imp Mark II) could take on any Star Trek fleet, the Enterprise has room for about 2,000 people... one Star Destroyer has room for almost 40,000 people (mostly Stormtroopers) that size ratio, coupled with the sheer number of Star Destroyers (of various makes and models) makes it very clear that Star Wars would pwn everything.

So... who wins? I guess you could make it balanced... the Enterprise has massively powerful weapons... but only what, three, four phaser banks? compared to 60 heavy turbolaser batteries of lower power, ok, thats all fine and good... but who would actually want balance? I know plenty of people that like both franchises, but no one I know rides the fence, one of the two is a favorite, and balancing both sides means the better side is shortchanged.

Maybe if it were done as a shooter (you know, a shooter that is half-serious, but well-done, and made by a good company, fun to play, but not meant to be a realistic game).



You know, it may be hard to believe this, but the Enterprise actually isn't the only ship in Star Trek.

Agreed. The trekkies have the argument that their 'phasers' are much more powerful than any 'laser' (Picard made such a comment once), and so Star Trek must automatically win, right?

I remember hearing that in the next episode, Picard moves the ship to protect it from lasers.:D Wish I had a quote to prove it.

The Warsies (among whom I count myself) would argue that thousands of TIE Fighters, and a half dozen Star Destroyers (Imp Mark II) could take on any Star Trek fleet, the Enterprise has room for about 2,000 people... one Star Destroyer has room for almost 40,000 people (mostly Stormtroopers) that size ratio, coupled with the sheer number of Star Destroyers (of various makes and models) makes it very clear that Star Wars would pwn everything.

So... who wins? I guess you could make it balanced... the Enterprise has massively powerful weapons... but only what, three, four phaser banks? compared to 60 heavy turbolaser batteries of lower power, ok, thats all fine and good... but who would actually want balance? I know plenty of people that like both franchises, but no one I know rides the fence, one of the two is a favorite, and balancing both sides means the better side is shortchanged.

Ah but what about this? What if you take the disparity between the two sides, and turn it into a brilliant story? After all, isn't their a certain appeal to the heroic struggle against overwelming odds? This would allow me to go with my pro-Star Wars convictions, and make the Empire much more powerful, since who wants a villan who's easy to beat? I would just have to ballance it enough to give the Federation a chance, not make both sides equal.

Of course, this would probably work best in a scripted campaign, and probably isn't an option for multiplayer.

Maybe if it were done as a shooter (you know, a shooter that is half-serious, but well-done, and made by a good company, fun to play, but not meant to be a realistic game).

Nah, not as a shooter. An RPG, maybe.

Yeah, you're right, I didn't even think about that.


There's no way this game would be balanced without making it ultra-lame.

How is phasers vs lightsabers an obsticle?

Nah, not as a shooter. An RPG, maybe.

Yeah, I was thinking that t00... I just couldn't think of a way to make it not seem really forced. Too many RPGs suck.

How is phasers vs lightsabers an obsticle?

Blaster bolt - single shot, deflected easily by a lightsaber, or blocked with your bare fucking hand if you're awesome.

http://www.galacticbinder.com/images/vaderblast1.jpg

Phaser - solid shot, continuous. Three guys with phasers and all jedi are toast.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0b/Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg/180px-Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg

You know, it may be hard to believe this, but the Enterprise actually isn't the only ship in Star Trek.

Oh really? I didn't know that. I guess I couldn't have been using the Enterprise as an example as it is the most commonly known ship in Star Trek.

Note how I didn't mention YT-1300 Corellian Light Stock Freightors, or Incom T-65B's, or anything made at Kuat, except Star Destroyers?

There are other ships in Star Wars apart from Star Destroyers, I was simplifying the argument so that I didn't need to type a complete list of every make and model of every ship from both universes to explain that there would be balancing issues.

Blaster bolt - single shot, deflected easily by a lightsaber, or blocked with your bare fucking hand if you're awesome.

http://www.galacticbinder.com/images/vaderblast1.jpg

Phaser - solid shot, continuous. Three guys with phasers and all jedi are toast.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0b/Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg/180px-Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg

Or Vader just rips the phasers out of their hands before slamming them around the room or just choking them all like Wayne Brady's bitches.

There are other ships in Star Wars apart from Star Destroyers, I was simplifying the argument so that I didn't need to type a complete list of every make and model of every ship from both universes to explain that there would be balancing issues.

Balance issue:

http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200510/mov-002-genesis-torp/320x240.jpg

and

http://img.fannation.com/upload/user_image/image/158/288/full/death_star.jpg

Blaster bolt - single shot, deflected easily by a lightsaber, or blocked with your bare fucking hand if you're awesome.

http://www.galacticbinder.com/images/vaderblast1.jpg

Phaser - solid shot, continuous. Three guys with phasers and all jedi are toast.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0b/Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg/180px-Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg

Or the Jedi can leap behind them and slice them apart. Or pull the phasers out of their hands. Or toss them twenty feet through the air.

So, some of the weak ones might go down, but send someone like Yoda in, and those three guys with phasers will be as dead as any other redshirt.

Blaster bolt - single shot, deflected easily by a lightsaber, or blocked with your bare fucking hand if you're awesome.

http://www.galacticbinder.com/images/vaderblast1.jpg

Phaser - solid shot, continuous. Three guys with phasers and all jedi are toast.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0b/Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg/180px-Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg

Vader absorbed the energy of the blaster bolt... one could do that with phasers. Also, in such a situation, presumably the Jedi would take more action than simple deflection... maybe we'd finally get to see some force skull crushing or something.

Or the Jedi can leap behind them and slice them apart. Or pull the phasers out of their hands. Or toss them twenty feet through the air.

So, some of the weak ones might go down, but send someone like Yoda in, and those three guys with phasers will be as dead as any other redshirt.

And if we introduce Yoda, with his tactical abilities, precognition, and all around fucking-awesomeness, we might as well just call a day for Star Wars.

Unless we let the Trekkies have Q. Then...

That makes me sad because Stormtroopers were supposed to be formidable.

Its worth noting that on at least one occasion they were ordered to let the prisoners escape. And they did fine boarding Leia's ship and invading the base on Hoth.

However, I think the main reason they were so formidable was because they were completely loyal.

And if we introduce Yoda, with his tactical abilities, precognition, and all around fucking-awesomeness, we might as well just call a day for Star Wars.

Unless we let the Trekkies have Q. Then...

Of course anyone who assumes the Q will automatically take the Federation/Trek side instead of just sitting back, grabbing some popcorn and watching the slobberknocker doesn't grasp the concept of the Q that well.

Of course anyone who assumes the Q will automatically take the Federation/Trek side instead of just sitting back, grabbing some popcorn and watching the slobberknocker doesn't grasp the concept of the Q that well.

That thought never occured to me. In general though, in a Trek vs Wars, we must assume at least some collaboration. Plus, the 'game' would not necessarily be only the federation... in fact, leaving out the Klingons would be terrible.

Its worth noting that on at least one occasion they were ordered to let the prisoners escape. And they did fine boarding Leia's ship and invading the base on Hoth.

However, I think the main reason they were so formidable was because they were completely loyal.

Originally Stormtroopers were Clonetroopers, which made them very capable. However, by the time Episode 4 rolled around most of those died out and the Stormtroopers relied on ordinary human conscripts to fill in their ranks. While they were especially loyal for the most part, they didn't come close to the Grand Army in terms of effectiveness.

And if we introduce Yoda, with his tactical abilities, precognition, and all around fucking-awesomeness, we might as well just call a day for Star Wars.

Unless we let the Trekkies have Q. Then...

Hardly. Their are plenty of psychic beings in Star Trek who could probably give Yoda trouble. Besides, he's just one guy. And you could make him a Federation ally who acts as a counter to Vader and the Emperor. I mean, why would Yoda and Starfleet fight? Yoda just wants to stop the Sith and the Empire, save the Jedi, and have the Force balanced. Unless the Federation joins the Sith, why would he bother them?

Q, on the other hand, should play no part, except perhaps as a guide or narrator for a campaign. I mean, Q is to Yoda what the entire nuclear arsenal of the United States is to a single piece of artillery. Their is no way to have Q as a playable unit and ballance the game. But that's no problem, because why would Q involve himself directly in the wars of mear humans anyways? He never helped the Federation against the Dominion, for example. He may have helped them against the Borg by throwing them in the Borg's path (thus alerting them), but he never fought directly.

That thought never occured to me. In general though, in a Trek vs Wars, we must assume at least some collaboration. Plus, the 'game' would not necessarily be only the federation... in fact, leaving out the Klingons would be terrible.

But we need not assume that all the Star Wars factions and characters will be on the same side, nor that all the Star Trek ones will be. Hell, the Federation would probably ally with the Empire before they'd ally with the Borg.

Originally Stormtroopers were Clonetroopers, which made them very capable. However, by the time Episode 4 rolled around most of those died out and the Stormtroopers relied on ordinary human conscripts to fill in their ranks. While they were especially loyal for the most part, they didn't come close to the Grand Army in terms of effectiveness.

I discount the New Trilogy on account of George Lucas' stupidity.

Stormtroopers filled any role needed. When they needed to be easy meat (Endor) they were. When they needed to be capable (Tantive IV) they were.

But we need not assume that all the Star Wars factions and characters will be on the same side, nor that all the Star Trek ones will be. Hell, the Federation would probably ally with the Empire before they'd ally with the Borg.

So... I thought it was supposed to be Star Trek vs Star Wars?

I discount the New Trilogy on account of George Lucas' stupidity.

Stormtroopers filled any role needed. When they needed to be easy meat (Endor) they were. When they needed to be capable (Tantive IV) they were.

But the Endor ones (at least according to the Emperor) were supposed to be the best of the best.

Though they were surprised and outnumbered, and they still would have won if their commanders hadn't been retarded. Like the officer who ordered the bunker open apparently without checking Han's ID. Who the hell allowed such an idiot to take charge?

So... I thought it was supposed to be Star Trek vs Star Wars?

"Star Trek vs Star Wars" is a lable aplied to a wide range of scenarios, including ones that have the Federation and Rebels joining up against the Empire, for example. Though perhaps the term "Star Trek/Star Wars crossover" would be less confusing to you.

But the Endor ones (at least according to the Emperor) were supposed to be the best of the best.

Though they were surprised and outnumbered, and they still would have won if their commanders hadn't been retarded. Like the officer who ordered the bunker open apparently without checking Han's ID. Who the hell allowed such an idiot to take charge?

Oh, right... but like I said when they needed to be easy meat they were. Surprised is one thing, but really? A few Ewoks versus thousands of galaxy-wide elite soldiers with military grade technology?

"Star Trek vs Star Wars" is a lable aplied to a wide range of scenarios, including ones that have the Federation and Rebels joining up against the Empire, for example. Though perhaps the term "Star Trek/Star Wars crossover" would be less confusing to you.

Ah.

Still... not a huge fan of the idea in general. Too many partisan fans I think.

too out of wack to make a balanced game.
fights a Vulcan or data might stand up to a low level padawan but other then that no fight.

In space the terminology and how stuff works is so far apart as to be unable to construct a reasonable and balanced system.

too out of wack to make a balanced game.
fights a Vulcan or data might stand up to a low level padawan but other then that no fight.

In space the terminology and how stuff works is so far apart as to be unable to construct a reasonable and balanced system.

Again, which is like trying to construct a plausible Street Fighter versus Pokemon game. Just not going to happen.

Again, which is like trying to construct a plausible Street Fighter versus Pokemon game. Just not going to happen.

street fighter Versus Pokemon seems more reasonable then star trek Vs star wars.

street fighter Versus Pokemon seems more reasonable then star trek Vs star wars.

Both have an assortment of martial, and supernatural abilities.

Other than it's complete absurdity there is nothing inherently impossible about Street Fighter vs Pokemon.

Both have an assortment of martial, and supernatural abilities.

Other than it's complete absurdity there is nothing inherently impossible about Street Fighter vs Pokemon.

You know, despite the oh so obvious absurdity of Star Trek vs Star Wars, no one here has really explained why that should be the case. So far I think I've done a pretty good job of refuting the arguments to that effect.

It may be a topic you find absurd, but that's not going to stop me from demanding evidence to support your claims.;)

Super MMORPG:

The setting is post-Federation Star Trek galaxy. The rebel forces from the Republic (in the Gamma quadrant), which had previously been allied with the Federation, have fled through the Bajoran wormhole as a protectorate of the Federation. The wormhole is now blocked on both sides, and the two forces are at perpetual war.

The Federation/Rebel hero will build fleets of destroyers, and ultimately lead victorious battles to reclaim the Old Republic. The Imperial hero will successfully invade and colonize the Alpha Quadrant.

To accomplish this, the heroes can take on a series of diplomatic missions to convince alien leaders to contribute to their cause, learn the ways of the mysterious Jedi/Sith, and exploit new technologies to add to their weaponry.




Empire management, total war game:

The possibilities are endless, but politics/values would be obviously adapted from Star Trek. The Jedi/Sith are special religions that you have to discover and study to incorporate into your elite fleets. Star Trek technology is more elaborate, but the Death Star would be the key tactical advantage of the Empire, while the Federation can infiltrate the empire and incite rebellion.

Super MMORPG:

No offense, but my impression has been that MMORPGs usually blow. I mean, how can you really have a story in an MMORPG? How can anything a player does have an significance other than increasing your score/level?

The setting is post-Federation Star Trek galaxy. The rebel forces from the Republic, which had previously been allied with the Federation, have fled through the Bajoran wormhole as a protectorate of the Federation. The wormhole is now blocked on both sides, and the two forces are at perpetual war.

Huh? The Bajoran wormhole just leads to the Delta Quadrant, and the Dominion. I don't think you'd want to go through that.

To accomplish this, the heroes can take on a series of diplomatic missions to convince alien leaders to contribute to their cause, learn the ways of the mysterious Jedi/Sith, and exploit new technologies to add to their weaponry.

Their's potential here, for sure.

Empire management, total war game:

The possibilities are endless, but politics/values would be obviously adapted from Star Trek. The Jedi/Sith are special religions that you have to discover and study to incorporate into your elite fleets. Star Trek technology is more elaborate, but the Death Star would be the key tactical advantage of the Empire, while the Federation can infiltrate the empire and incite rebellion.

The Federation would have to use stealthy tactics. If you allied with the Romulans or Klingons, you could gain access to cloaking devices to sneak spies into Imperial systems.

Super MMORPG:

The setting is post-Federation Star Trek galaxy. The rebel forces from the Republic, which had previously been allied with the Federation, have fled through the Bajoran wormhole as a protectorate of the Federation. The wormhole is now blocked on both sides, and the two forces are at perpetual war.

The Federation/Rebel hero will build fleets of destroyers, and ultimately lead victorious battles to reclaim the Old Republic. The Imperial hero will successfully invade and colonize the Alpha Quadrant.

To accomplish this, the heroes can take on a series of diplomatic missions to convince alien leaders to contribute to their cause, learn the ways of the mysterious Jedi/Sith, and exploit new technologies to add to their weaponry.




Empire management, total war game:

The possibilities are endless, but politics/values would be obviously adapted from Star Trek. The Jedi/Sith are special religions that you have to discover and study to incorporate into your elite fleets. Star Trek technology is more elaborate, but the Death Star would be the key tactical advantage of the Empire, while the Federation can infiltrate the empire and incite rebellion.

...whoa. Kudos.


And by the way, whoever asked me about phasers and lightsabers, a phaser is no match for a jedi with a lightsaber.

No offense, but my impression has been that MMORPGs usually blow. I mean, how can you really have a story in an MMORPG? How can anything a player does have an significance other than increasing your score/level?

To me, the single most fun thing about a game based on a TV series is the exploration of its world. So when I'm doing stat-grinding, I would be able to do mercenary work marauding/slave trading (in both quadrants as long as I don't belong to Starfleet/Imperials), build my own starship, hire crewmembers, and even join Starfleet/Imperial forces and rise up the ranks. The key storyline shift would be the deployment of the fleets, and depending on how the hero achieves the goal, diplomatic meetings/saber duels.

Oblivion is a close example to this (wormhole = Oblivion gate, factions = guilds) except that you also get to play as the Daedra, and you're able to purchase starships instead of horses.


Huh? The Bajoran wormhole just leads to the Delta Quadrant, and the Dominion. I don't think you'd want to go through that.

Sorry, I'm not too familiar with DS9 as I am with the Enterprises/Voyager, so I had to look up Memory Alpha for the Bajoran wormhole.

The terminus [of the Bajoran wormhole] nearest to the Federation is located in the Denorios belt in the Bajoran system, and crosses some 70,000 light years to a point near the Idran system in the Gamma Quadrant.


Were you referring to the Barzan wormhole in the Delta Quadrant? I know you're very knowledgeable in Star Trek, so I must be confusing something here.


edit: I made a mistake in editing the setting, I meant to say that the Star Wars universe was in the Gamma Quadrant, and the rebels have fled to Federation space.

As long as the game incorporates the massive strategic advantages of hyperspace and the massive tactical advantages of warp drive, I'm sold.

And by the way, whoever asked me about phasers and lightsabers, a phaser is no match for a jedi with a lightsaber.

Perhaps the Star Trek counterpart to the Jedi would be Augments with similar powers. It may not canonically make sense, but the game would have to be balanced.


Oh yeah, which ever faction gets control of the clones (either through diplomatic deals, commerce, or by strength) gets a huge advantage.

Perhaps the Star Trek counterpart to the Jedi would be Augments with similar powers. It may not canonically make sense, but the game would have to be balanced.

Their are better ways to do this. Ocampans used to have psychic abilities, and they can be trained to use them again. Species 8472 can communicate telepathically. Betazoids are empaths, and Vulcans can use the mind meld. In short, their are plenty of Star Trek species with special abilities.

Alternatively, you could simply have the player discover that the Force also exists in Star Trek.

Their are better ways to do this. Ocampans used to have psychic abilities, and they can be trained to use them again. Species 8472 can communicate telepathically. Betazoids are empaths, and Vulcans can use the mind meld. In short, their are plenty of Star Trek species with special abilities.

Alternatively, you could simply have the player discover that the Force also exists in Star Trek.

I wasn't too familiar with Ocampans, and the only telekinetic species (major threat to Jedi combat) I knew were the Godly species, which should be completely ruled out of any games. Genetic conditioning would be more suited to MMORPG/character development and balanced gameplay for the humans.

Telepathy would be a bonus to heros who play as a telepathic species. The Vulcan hero in a covert mission with strong attributes in Mental Discipline would be able to mind meld and extract passwords from the guard, and Betazoids wouldn't even have to go that far (although that would certainly hurt balance issues). The hero who uses the Force however, can just use Jedi mind tricks.

Katra's would also play some role. If Yoda is a really, really old near-divine Vulcan, he can transfer his katra to the hero, which will boost Force powers.



I just realized that this thread is supposed to be debating Star Wars weapons vs Star Trek weapons. Obviously Star Wars will win, because most Star Trek conflicts are carried out through means of arms, while Jedi's can just beam onto the enemy bridge, provided that it's pre-Empire era with an abundance of Jedi's.

I wasn't too familiar with Ocampans, and the only telekinetic species (major threat to Jedi combat) I knew were the Godly species, which should be completely ruled out of any games. Genetic conditioning would be more suited to MMORPG/character development and balanced gameplay for the humans.

Well I agree about keeping the super beings out. But I think you could probably counter the Jedi with existing species. Their is no "human faction" in Star Trek. The Federation includes many species.

Telepathy would be a bonus to heros who play as a telepathic species. The Vulcan hero in a covert mission with strong attributes in Mental Discipline would be able to mind meld and extract passwords from the guard, and Betazoids wouldn't even have to go that far (although that would certainly hurt balance issues). The hero who uses the Force however, can just use Jedi mind tricks.

Which only work on the weak minded. As far as I can recall, no one's ever resisted a Vulcan mind meld successfully.

Katra's would also play some role. If Yoda is a really, really old near-divine Vulcan, he can transfer his katra to the hero, which will boost Force powers.

No, Yoda cannot be a Vulcan due to having the wrong number of toes, for a start. He doesn't just look that way because he's really old. He's a very distinct species.

I just realized that this thread is supposed to be debating Star Wars weapons vs Star Trek weapons.

Not really. It was supposed to be about weather, and how, you could make a game based on Star Trek vs Star Wars. Not which side would kick the other's ass without any balancing.

Obviously Star Wars will win, because most Star Trek conflicts are carried out through means of arms, while Jedi's can just beam onto the enemy bridge, provided that it's pre-Empire era with an abundance of Jedi's.

What? Most Star Wars conflicts "are carried out through means of arms" as well. And they'll have to have decent shields engines and guns to get close enough to beam Jedi aboard, right? And anyway, how are the Jedi going to fight a war without support? "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers," remember?

Not that its a big problem, because without balancing to make a playable game, Star Wars military technology should be more than sufficient to crush any of the ordinary Star Trek factions, provided their's no time travel intervention of super beings like Q. Even without the massive advantage in numbers they also enjoy.

I just had a thought...

Star Wars Universe is like china(numbers), Star Trek Universe is like the US(technology). Might as well just go over in that thread.

*Walks*

Again, which is like trying to construct a plausible Street Fighter versus Pokemon game. Just not going to happen.



actually, a Street Fighter vs Pokemon is possible. ever played the game Super Smash Bros? you have Pokemon characters (http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/pikachu.html) in a street fighter like setting. ;)

Blaster bolt - single shot, deflected easily by a lightsaber, or blocked with your bare fucking hand if you're awesome.

http://www.galacticbinder.com/images/vaderblast1.jpg

Phaser - solid shot, continuous. Three guys with phasers and all jedi are toast.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0b/Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg/180px-Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg

phaser:one long beam that can be avoided. remember, a lightsaber can deflect and redirect blaster shots, so what's stopping a jedi from redirecting a phaser beam?

Phaser - solid shot, continuous. Three guys with phasers and all jedi are toast.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0b/Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg/180px-Obrien_defends_with_phaser.jpg

Continuous, but not necessarily capable of a sweeping beam, since we never saw any phaser hit more than one location per press of the button. Also, stupid design. In their rush to make everything sleek and futuristic, hand phasers forewent important little things like even the most basic of sights, and poor grip angle.

Well I agree about keeping the super beings out. But I think you could probably counter the Jedi with existing species. Their is no "human faction" in Star Trek. The Federation includes many species.

If you're able to play as different species, playing as a human will be severly handicapped besides having extra points in personality and diplomacy, which would be quite insignificant compared to natural super abilities. Most humans who make use of their personality and diplomacy points are starship captains. And most rebel personnel are human :)


Which only work on the weak minded. As far as I can recall, no one's ever resisted a Vulcan mind meld successfully.

Vulcan mind-meld requires proper training as well, that could be another mechanic to balance out.


What? Most Star Wars conflicts "are carried out through means of arms" as well. And they'll have to have decent shields engines and guns to get close enough to beam Jedi aboard, right? And anyway, how are the Jedi going to fight a war without support? "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers," remember?

That was assuming that the Imperial fleet and Trek fleet were sufficiently equipped to reach a stalemate (in terms of balance issues, the Imperial fleet obviously has a significant advantage in numbers, so the Federation would have to have superior technology, such as cloaking, and for the sake of gameplay, extra-Federation super weapons that can be accquired from different species)

No, I wasn't referring to sending Jedi's on scout ships to take on an entire fleet :p


Not that its a big problem, because without balancing to make a playable game, Star Wars military technology should be more than sufficient to crush any of the ordinary Star Trek factions, provided their's no time travel intervention of super beings like Q. Even without the massive advantage in numbers they also enjoy.

Why should that be the case?

Continuous, but not necessarily capable of a sweeping beam, since we never saw any phaser hit more than one location per press of the button. Also, stupid design. In their rush to make everything sleek and futuristic, hand phasers forewent important little things like even the most basic of sights, and poor grip angle.

Haha, phasers don't have sights!

http://www.phasers.net/2150/phasepistol.gif

http://www.phasers.net/2360/tngdustbuster.gif

In any Trek Vs Wars game, I'd be waiting for the Babylon 5 expansion.

Besides, Trek and Wars would never combine in any joint venture so long as Lucas demands 80% of profits and Paramount owns the very profitable Trek franchise.

In any Trek Vs Wars game, I'd be waiting for the Babylon 5 expansion.

Besides, Trek and Wars would never combine in any joint venture so long as Lucas demands 80% of profits and Paramount owns the very profitable Trek franchise.

Which is a good thing, because the worst case scenario, George Lucas and Rick Berman will combine their stupidity along with Uwe Boll to summon Captain Piece of Shit and kill both franchises.

Just something that's been on my mind for a while, so I thought I'd make a thread about it.

I don't think one can really argue that Star Trek and Star Wars are the two most popular science fiction/science fantasy universes in the world right now. Nor can one deny that their has been a long-running Star Trek vs Star Wars debate, along with a good deal of fan fiction on the topic. Finally, I doubt one can deny that their have been reasonably successful crossover games in the past (Alien vs Predator). Hell, their have even been Star Trek vs Star Wars mods for other games. And if a professional one were ever made, it might be one of the most successful games in history (depending on a variety of factors, I'll admit).

So, I have three questions: Why haven't Lucasfilms and Paramount gotten together and made such a game, would you buy it if they did, and finally, if George Lucas gave you complete control over the production of such a game, what would you do?

I'll withhold comment until others have had a chance to reply. If no one else finds this topic worth commenting on, I will record my views for posterity.:)

Star Wars was in a galaxy far far away, long time ago. Star Trek is in our galaxy in future.

Star Wars was in a galaxy far far away, long time ago. Star Trek is in our galaxy in future.

Time travel happens in Trek. Besides, who is to say Q wouldn't send some ship to that distant galaxy long ago just for the hell of it? In fact, there's your premise. Q is bored, sends a Federation ship or even several ships to a galaxy far, far away in the distant past?

You would have all out war on your hands. Wars and trek fans have not had a good past lol. the game would be interesting, but way too difficult to balance.

Time travel happens in Trek. Besides, who is to say Q wouldn't send some ship to that distant galaxy long ago just for the hell of it? In fact, there's your premise. Q is bored, sends a Federation ship or even several ships to a galaxy far, far away in the distant past?

I don't think Star Wars tech have warp capability.

I don't think Star Wars tech have warp capability.

Nope. They go to hyperspace, which is much much faster.

Haha, phasers don't have sights!


they have on board computers that adjust the beam and aim for you.

If you're able to play as different species, playing as a human will be severly handicapped besides having extra points in personality and diplomacy, which would be quite insignificant compared to natural super abilities.

Not so. A man with 10 times human strength might beat ten ordinary men, but a man who masters diplomacy can rally an Empire to their side.;)

Also, it depends what species you include. I agree that a properly trained Ocampan psychic or a member of Species 8472 would be a rather unfair match for most humans, but trained human fighters often beat Klingons in battle.

Most humans who make use of their personality and diplomacy points are starship captains. And most rebel personnel are human :)

The first bit is not entirely true. Nor would a game have to rigidly follow the dramatic conventions of the TV series.

As for the Rebels, they also had the Bothan spies and the bridge crews on their capital ships seem to be mostly Mon Calimari (fitting, since the Calimari built a lot of those ships).

Vulcan mind-meld requires proper training as well, that could be another mechanic to balance out.

More training than becoming a Jedi Knight?

That was assuming that the Imperial fleet and Trek fleet were sufficiently equipped to reach a stalemate (in terms of balance issues, the Imperial fleet obviously has a significant advantage in numbers, so the Federation would have to have superior technology, such as cloaking, and for the sake of gameplay, extra-Federation super weapons that can be accquired from different species)

How many times has the Federation come up with some brilliant piece of technology, used it in one or two episodes, and then never been known to use it again? Just give them access to all that stuff, plus the tech Voyager brought back from the Delta Quadrant.

No, I wasn't referring to sending Jedi's on scout ships to take on an entire fleet :p

Jedi would make a nasty boarding party. Unless the Federation decided to toughen their security measures and beam them into space.

Why should that be the case?

Because under canon policy, Star Wars ships have absurdly powerful weapons (200 Gigaton guns on Aclamator Class assualt ships). And because they can cross their galaxy (which is canonically larger than ours) in days, while Voyager took 70 years to get home. And because they have absurdly huge fleets, to the point that even if Federation ships were ten times as powerful as Imperial designs, they'd be hopelessly outnumbered. 25,000 star Destroyers for a start. And I recall reading an estimate once that put their total number of warships, potentially at least, at over 300 million (no, it wasn't fan fiction). I'll see if I can find the quotes.

In any case, the disparity is rather striking in a number of catagories if you compare the Federation and the Empire, or even the Borg and the Empire. You have to bring in the rarely seen superbeings and mysterious foes like Species 8472 to give Star Trek a good chance, or else resort to time travel and all the risks and uncertanties that entails.

they have on board computers that adjust the beam and aim for you.

Then how is it they miss so much?

Then how is it they miss so much?

Because Microsoft owns the Star Trek universe. :p

Haha, phasers don't have sights!


The pictures prove my point exactly. There are not even basic iron sights on either phaser, and the second one has a horrible grip position that is not conducive for aiming.

It's like the Mugabe of economic policy translated into weapons design. A train wreck.

they have on board computers that adjust the beam and aim for you.

I thought of it, and that doesn't work either. If it has auto aiming capabilities, why even bother holding it in your hand? It can just as well shoot from its holster.

The whole thing is simply not practical, so ST fans have to invent stupid ideas that aren't even consistent to explain it away.

MHow many times has the Federation come up with some brilliant piece of technology, used it in one or two episodes, and then never been known to use it again? Just give them access to all that stuff, plus the tech Voyager brought back from the Delta Quadrant.

That's why I said "extra-Federation," something that's not Federation in origin.


Because under canon policy, Star Wars ships have absurdly powerful weapons (200 Gigaton guns on Aclamator Class assualt ships). And because they can cross their galaxy (which is canonically larger than ours) in days, while Voyager took 70 years to get home. And because they have absurdly huge fleets, to the point that even if Federation ships were ten times as powerful as Imperial designs, they'd be hopelessly outnumbered. 25,000 star Destroyers for a start. And I recall reading an estimate once that put their total number of warships, potentially at least, at over 300 million (no, it wasn't fan fiction). I'll see if I can find the quotes.

My point was that the game shouldn't necessarily have to follow canon. To me, balance issues are the most important in a game.

I'm not too familiar with the Star Wars fan-works, but I assume that the only canon facts are those presented in the movie series, in which none of them goes into detail of what technology is being used as elaborately as the decades long Star Trek series.


Dynasty warriors had many historical inaccuracies/exaggeration, but that didn't stop it from becoming one of the most popular historical slasher franchise.


By the way, what part about the Bajoran wormhole did I not understand? I thought the Bajoran wormhole connected the Gamma and Alpha quadrants, and had a strategic importance in the Dominion War.

they have on board computers that adjust the beam and aim for you.

There are so many instances where the wielder is shown to physically "aim" when shooting the pistols.

awesome plot-linerick berman and george lucas

Does. Not. Compute.

Anyway, the main problem with making a Star Trek versus Star Wars game is the main problem with anything involving the two medias: license fees, and outright resistance. These are massive franchises we're talking about, and neither Paramount/CBS nor Lucas Films is willing to take the chance that combining the two will fail horribly, as is quite possible. Added to that you've got the potential for gigantic amounts of flak no matter what they do.

But then you have to balance that against sales, and the possibility of negotiations. And, after all, stranger crossovers have happened...one only needs to look at Kingdom Hearts to see that.

Balance issue:

http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200510/mov-002-genesis-torp/320x240.jpg

and

http://img.fannation.com/upload/user_image/image/158/288/full/death_star.jpg

Torpedo that can destroy a star. (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Trilithium_weapon)

Take that you absurdly sized space station!

Huh? The Bajoran wormhole just leads to the Delta Quadrant, and the Dominion. I don't think you'd want to go through that.


Gamma Quadrant. It's the Gamma Quadrant! Not Delta Quadrant!

I apologize for yelling, but I've seen many people make this simple error, and it drives me nuts, because we're talking about one fourth of a GALAXY here. It's not like the pharmacist down the street versus the vacant lot next door.

Torpedo that can destroy a star. (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Trilithium_weapon)

Take that you absurdly sized space station!

trilithium torpedo wouldn't do shit against a death star...

Continuous, but not necessarily capable of a sweeping beam, since we never saw any phaser hit more than one location per press of the button. Also, stupid design. In their rush to make everything sleek and futuristic, hand phasers forewent important little things like even the most basic of sights, and poor grip angle.

I beg to differ:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Special/handweap/VOY1-cathexis-widehit-crop1.jpg

Otherwise though, you're right about the poor qualities of the phaser in terms of design. I mean, Jesus Christ, what a piece of crap.

But then, Starfleet as a whole is rather...odd. As much as I liked it as a kid, as an adult I can easily see it needs a lot of work.

trilithium torpedo wouldn't do shit against a death star...

Well, no, but my main point was that Star Trek possessed a much more powerful weapon, albeit one never seen again afterwards...

(And it could always destroy the star of a system the Death Star was in, prompting the Death Star's destruction unless it could escape in time....which admittedly it probably could, but still!)

That's why I said "extra-Federation," something that's not Federation in origin.

You are talking about technologies outside the Federation. I'm saying that the Federation would have all the tech they needed themselves if they actually remembered each week's technobabble solution.

My point was that the game shouldn't necessarily have to follow canon. To me, balance issues are the most important in a game.

It doesn't have to perfectly follow it, no. But I was talking about what would happen if you didn't balance it.

I'm not too familiar with the Star Wars fan-works, but I assume that the only canon facts are those presented in the movie series, in which none of them goes into detail of what technology is being used as elaborately as the decades long Star Trek series.

Generally, the movies and the TV shows are canon. A little bit from the show may have been declared non-canon over the years (I know theirs doubt over weather or not the Voyager episode Threshold is still canon).

By the way, what part about the Bajoran wormhole did I not understand? I thought the Bajoran wormhole connected the Gamma and Alpha quadrants, and had a strategic importance in the Dominion War.

That is completely correct. I guess it was just something about the way you worded your post.

Gamma Quadrant. It's the Gamma Quadrant! Not Delta Quadrant!

I apologize for yelling, but I've seen many people make this simple error, and it drives me nuts, because we're talking about one fourth of a GALAXY here. It's not like the pharmacist down the street versus the vacant lot next door.

Just a typo. Obviously I know this.

Well, Idk about the positions of the Star Trek owners...

But, George Lucas has already stated that he believes war scenarios are distasteful, So I would find it unlikely that he would approve of such a thing...


Besides, we all know that the Wookiees would rip everyone's arms out of their sockets if they lose...

I beg to differ:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Special/handweap/VOY1-cathexis-widehit-crop1.jpg


I can't tell what it's doing in there, aside from maybe blowing up in the users hand.


Otherwise though, you're right about the poor qualities of the phaser in terms of design. I mean, Jesus Christ, what a piece of crap.

But then, Starfleet as a whole is rather...odd. As much as I liked it as a kid, as an adult I can easily see it needs a lot of work.

A lot of Trekkies still insist that all the Starfleet designs are perfectly sensible though. I suspect it only makes sense in the way that only fans can see.

I can't tell what it's doing in there, aside from maybe blowing up in the users hand.

It's from an episode of Voyager. Tuvok is using the phaser to stun everyone on the bridge at once. Multiple targets, one firing. You can see this in a few other episodes, though not very often.


A lot of Trekkies still insist that all the Starfleet designs are perfectly sensible though. I suspect it only makes sense in the way that only fans can see.
Oh, there's lots of fan wank no matter where you go. That's why the Versus Debate was so pointless: in the end it was all fan wankery. Even the most logical of debaters, such as the infamous Darkstar, were fan wankers, albiet wankers who were far more willing to engage in logic about such wankery, and come up with some arguments for their wankery that are actually rather convincing at first.

It's from an episode of Voyager. Tuvok is using the phaser to stun everyone on the bridge at once. Multiple targets, one firing. You can see this in a few other episodes, though not very often.

Though it might not work against a Jedi. I don't think we've ever seen that trick used on kill mode, and Jedi are supposed to be stun resistant from what I've heard. Then again, my EU knowledge is somewhat limited.

Oh, there's lots of fan wank no matter where you go. That's why the Versus Debate was so pointless: in the end it was all fan wankery. Even the most logical of debaters, such as the infamous Darkstar, were fan wankers, albiet wankers who were far more willing to engage in logic about such wankery, and come up with some arguments for their wankery that are actually rather convincing at first.

The versus debate was mostly over before I found out about it, but I'm familiar with the name Darkstar, and let's just say that the word "logical" is not a descriptor I've often heard. Then again, I'm more or less on the Star Wars side, despite being what I guess one could call a moderate (I like both series, recognize that Star Wars has the edge barring time travel and super beings, but wish Star Trek could put up a better fight).

Of course their is wank on both sides (though I do maintain that the Trek side is more guilty their, if only by virtue of having the weaker tech outside the odd uber factions). However, one can reach an informed and reasonable conclusion through logical analysis, and adherence to canon policy. In the end, though, this is of questionable relevance to the topic of this thread, since some bending or outright dismissal of canon would have to occur for balancing reasons.

You won't hear about him sounding logical from the Star Wars side. If you listen to the Warsies, Darkstar is a raving lunatic who couldn't take a step without falling flat on his face.

Of course, to listen to him and other Trekkies involved in the Versus debate, Wong is the same.

My evaluation of him comes from looking over his site (http://www.st-v-sw.net) and his articles, along with his logic, and finding it interesting, if somewhat wanting at times. My evaluation of Wong, incidentally, is that he has much less logical foundation, and has a much clearer bias in the way he words everything. (And he is rarely polite, whereas Darkstar at least tries to be at times.)

Of course, it is possibly my Star Trek bias is playing into these evaluations...but anyway, my main point is that the Versus Debate is pointless.

You won't hear about him sounding logical from the Star Wars side. If you listen to the Warsies, Darkstar is a raving lunatic who couldn't take a step without falling flat on his face.

Of course, to listen to him and other Trekkies involved in the Versus debate, Wong is the same.

So, don't just believe one side or the other, any more than you would during a political campaign. Look at either side, check them against the established facts, and look for dishonesty/inconsitencies, then draw your own conclusions.

My evaluation of him comes from looking over his site (http://www.st-v-sw.net) and his articles, along with his logic, and finding it interesting, if somewhat wanting at times. My evaluation of Wong, incidentally, is that he has much less logical foundation, and has a much clearer bias in the way he words everything. (And he is rarely polite, whereas Darkstar at least tries to be at times.)

Politeness is not a good measure of logic, accuracy, or intelligence. One can be perfectly polite and still know nothing. Furthermore, one can be biased and still be right.

In other words, you can't prove someone is wrong simply by proving they're an asshole, or biased.

Of course, it is possibly my Star Trek bias is playing into these evaluations...but anyway, my main point is that the Versus Debate is pointless.

Why does liking Star Trek (or Star Wars) mean that one has to believe it can win? If the evidence showed that Star Trek could easily wipe out Star Wars, I would hardly be heartbroken over it, any more than by the current state of affairs, regardless of which series I prefer.

The debate is pointless in the sense that you will never sway the die-hard loyalists of either side. Its still entertaining, however, and it makes for good fan fiction. And it would make for a damn good game if Lucas and Paramount would only see it that way.

It's also about as structurally coherent as Street Fighter versus Pokemon.

Mortal Kombat VS DC?

But we need not assume that all the Star Wars factions and characters will be on the same side, nor that all the Star Trek ones will be. Hell, the Federation would probably ally with the Empire before they'd ally with the Borg.

I think this would work the best; you get to pick from two sides: New Republic & New Jedi Order/Federation & Allies VS Borg/Yuuzhan Vong or something.

I think this would work the best; you get to pick from two sides: New Republic & New Jedi Order/Federation & Allies VS Borg/Yuuzhan Vong or something.

No, the Borg and the Yuuzhan Vong would be about the least likely to ally. "You will be assimilated" vs the machine haters.:D

For sides I'd say something like this:

1. The Rebel Alliance, Federation, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians: allied in the defense of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants against the Empire.

2. The Empire, attempting to add the Star Trek galaxy to their territory and eliminate a possible support base for the Rebels.

3. The Borg, trying to assimilate everyone else.

No, the Borg and the Yuuzhan Vong would be about the least likely to ally. "You will be assimilated" vs the machine haters.:D

I thought about that, and a suitable handwave will either suffice or alienate everyone. Likely the latter.

For sides I'd say something like this:

1. The Rebel Alliance, Federation, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians: allied in the defense of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants against the Empire.

2. The Empire, attempting to add the Star Trek galaxy to their territory and eliminate a possible support base for the Rebels.

3. The Borg, trying to assimilate everyone else.

Just out of curiosity, what does the Rebel Alliance actually bring to the table?

Also, for the sake of balance it feels like there should be a Trek/Wars element to each team, you know what I mean?

I thought about that, and a suitable handwave will either suffice or alienate everyone. Likely the latter.

Indeed. For the audience, or in this case the player, to become involved in a story, for them to basically give a damn instead of laugh derisively, it has to be believable.

Just out of curiosity, what does the Rebel Alliance actually bring to the table?

To some extent that depends on weather you think the Star Wars galaxy has better technology. But even presuming its balanced to be fairly even, the Rebellion would still be able to offer a few things. First, against an enemy as powerful as the Empire, every ship and every soldier counts. Second, they will have knowledge of the Empire's leaders, history, organization, and tactics. Third, they have bases already operating in the Star Wars galaxy. Fourth, they have Jedi.

Also, for the sake of balance it feels like there should be a Trek/Wars element to each team, you know what I mean?

Hmm, maybe the Cardassians as a weak puppet state seeking revenge for the Dominion War, and perhaps the Ferengi could be bought out? Of course their are other possibilities as well. In the story, their main use to the Empire could be providing navigational data to the Empire so they can chart hyperspace routes through the new galaxy.

It's from an episode of Voyager. Tuvok is using the phaser to stun everyone on the bridge at once. Multiple targets, one firing. You can see this in a few other episodes, though not very often.


aka... the only way to hit the target is to put the phaser beam on the widest setting and basically saturate the area with phase energy. ;) :p