NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, if you believe the article that was written by a woman it is THE WASHING MACHINE! :eek:

Do you believe it?

"The debate is heated. Some say the pill, some say abortion rights and some the right to work outside the home. Some, however, dare to go further: the washing machine," it says.

It then goes on to talk about the history of washing machines, starting with a rudimentary model in 1767 in Germany and ending up with today's trendy launderettes where a woman can have a cappuccino with friends while the tumbler turns."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090309/od_nm/us_washingmachine_1

So, what do you think has done it?

Men finally recognising that woman are fully formed human beings with opinions that actually matter and the ability to do most jobs as well as men and some better?

I'd say the washing machine would be right up there. My father would talk of how his mother would spend all day Friday just washing the family clothes in the old copper boiler and press - and how that chore became a breeze after WWII, when my grandfather bought her a brand new washing machine and a vacuum cleaner. My Grandmother was very much a homebody, and never wanted to go out and work, and these items suddenly made it possible for her to have a social life beyond the Saturday evening Bingo Games.

Well, I don't know. It could have been the washing machine. Washing laundry without one sure does take up a lot of a person's time. That's why launderer is the second, or possibly third, oldest profession, right up there with prostitute and lawyer.

Or it could be this:
Men finally recognising that woman are fully formed human beings with opinions that actually matter and the ability to do most jobs as well as men and some better?

I can see their point. after all, would women have time to work, get an education etc... back then if they spent all their time washing clothes?

also, the washing machine also made it easier for MEN to wash laundry. from then on it was a simple task to teach us men the complicated workings of the oven... :p

I've always put it down to WWII and the boom in the middle class

Men finally recognising that woman are fully formed human beings with opinions that actually matter and the ability to do most jobs as well as men and some better?

I must of missed that meeting :(

damn i knew that was a bad idea.

The washing machine - yes. In fact, once humanity invents a machine that will make me a sandwich and fetch my beer, females will become extinct!

Men finally recognising that women are fully formed human beings with opinions that actually matter and the ability to do most jobs as well as men and some better?

Yeah, like that'll ever happen.

Western women.

If they didn't do it themselves, they'd still be sitting at home making babies and taking a good beating from the husband like obedient wives without the right to vote, or property.

Yeah, like that'll ever happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMb8Csll9Ws&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMb8Csll9Ws&feature=related
Beat me to it!

The washing machine - yes. In fact, once humanity invents a machine that will make me a sandwich and fetch my beer, females will become extinct!

Halfway there! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3ysomqy86U)

Beat me to it!

My first post was nothing more than a set-up to post that. :D

the pill.

a reliable way to avoid unwanted children is a great thing.

Here in the UK it was the Great War.

Well, if you believe the article that was written by a woman it is THE WASHING MACHINE! :eek:

Do you believe it?

"The debate is heated. Some say the pill, some say abortion rights and some the right to work outside the home. Some, however, dare to go further: the washing machine," it says.

It then goes on to talk about the history of washing machines, starting with a rudimentary model in 1767 in Germany and ending up with today's trendy launderettes where a woman can have a cappuccino with friends while the tumbler turns."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090309/od_nm/us_washingmachine_1

So, what do you think has done it?

It wasn't the washing machine.

The washing machine may have liberated some western women to have more time for things other than their domestic 'duties' - but it was the fight for equality that started the social conscience thinking maybe 'domestic duties' were not the sum and substance of what a woman could do, and be.

One person falling in front of the King's horse did more to liberate western women than any number of labour-saving gadgets.

Men finally recognising that woman are fully formed human beings with opinions that actually matter and the ability to do most jobs as well as men and some better?You actually believe this nonsense, huh?

You actually believe this nonsense, huh?

Which part?

What about the tampon? ...and the menstrual pad for that matter. I mean it may be no washing machine but It sure sounds more comfortable than stuffing moss down your panties!

So it wasn't Spiceworld: the movie?

So it wasn't Spiceworld: the movie?

If enough people actually watched that, it would have set back women's rights a couple of centuries as an antibody reaction.

The ability to not do any housework, as it is beneath them, while at the same time claiming "housewife" as a career choice.

That's why launderer is the second, or possibly third, oldest profession, right up there with prostitute and lawyer.

The only difference being that a launderer is working in far more noble profession.

The only difference being that a launderer is working in far more noble profession.

Phrases like 'noble' were pretty much invented to excuse behaviour like virtual slavery of unemancipated women, just as phrases like 'honour' and 'duty' were invented to excuse dying and killing for someone else's agenda.

Phrases like 'noble' were pretty much invented to excuse behaviour like virtual slavery of unemancipated women, just as phrases like 'honour' and 'duty' were invented to excuse dying and killing for someone else's agenda.

That's a pretty ridiculous assertion.

That's a pretty ridiculous assertion.

Kinda true though...



:)

Kinda true though...



:)

Perhaps a case can be made for the word honour, but not the others, not that I can see.

Perhaps a case can be made for the word honour, but not the others, not that I can see.

You have no honour!

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/a/ab/Worf2364.jpg/292px-Worf2364.jpg

That's a pretty ridiculous assertion.

Why does someone kill? For fun? For defence? How does someone kill someone they've never met, and know nothing about? It takes a 'higher calling'. You must kill them, it's your 'duty'.

You must take a bullet for me - for 'honour'.

Yes, you're a virtual slave, but the work you do is SO important. It's a very 'noble' thing you do.


It's all horseshit.

It's making up words to describe vagueness, so you can get people to keep doing stupid and evil shit, even after they realise it's stupid and evil.

Why does someone kill? For fun? For defence? How does someone kill someone they've never met, and no nothing about? It takes a 'higher calling'. You must kill them, it's your 'duty'.

You must take a bullet for me - for 'honour'.

Yes, you're a virtual slave, but the work you do is SO important. It's a very 'noble' thing you do.


It's all horseshit.

It's making up words to describe vagueness, so you can get people to keep doing stupid and evil shit, even after they realise it's stupid and evil.

GnI your taking out your ass. If you want to talk seriously about the meaning of these words - look up their definitions as well as their etymologies first then we'll talk.

Why does someone kill? For fun? For defence? How does someone kill someone they've never met, and know nothing about? It takes a 'higher calling'. You must kill them, it's your 'duty'.

You must take a bullet for me - for 'honour'.

Yes, you're a virtual slave, but the work you do is SO important. It's a very 'noble' thing you do.


Showing some contexts where the words can be used in such a way, does not mean the words were originally created for such a way.

honour - from Anglo-Fr. honour, from O.Fr. honor, from L. honorem (nom. honos) "honor, dignity, office, reputation" c. 1200 ... also refers to chastity in women. c 1390

Phrases like 'noble' were pretty much invented to excuse behaviour like virtual slavery of unemancipated women, just as phrases like 'honour' and 'duty' were invented to excuse dying and killing for someone else's agenda.

What you talking about Whillas?

It is such a shame that some people don't have a sense of humour.

GnI your taking out your ass. If you want to talk seriously about the meaning of these words - look up their definitions as well as their etymologies first then we'll talk.

I'm not sure what you think the etymology (which will only show where such words derived from) or definition (which will only show what such words are said to mean) will say that will counter my assertion.

What you talking about Whillas?

It is such a shame that some people don't have a sense of humour.

I saw the joke in there (which would have been better, in my opinion, if you'd have phrased it so that laundry AND prostitution were being referred to as the more 'noble' options), but was making a point.

Just because a word or a concept can be manipulated in propaganda to manipulate people to kill doesn't make the word or concept loose it's original meaning. If you look at the historical definition I provided for honour you can see that it's original meaning is the same as is commonly understood in everyday English. So in that respect honour is one of the less corrupted concepts in the English language. Language is used to manipulate as well as communicate - I'm sure that the nazi's used the coordinating conjuction 'und'. Am I to claim that the concept of the coordinating conjunction is an evil fascist concept used to kill jews, and therefore meaningless? no that would be clearly ridiculous ... so why should I question the definition of a word in the English language which has held the same semantic meaning for about 800+ years?

The washing machine may have liberated Western women... but it took Tide with Dawn StainScrubbers (http://www.tide.com/en-US/product/tide-with-dawn-stainscrubbers.jspx) to "liberate" my jeans of those pesky grease stains. Thanks, Tide!

On an unrelated note, do the Jolt ads seem to be getting more intrusive?

The washing machine may have liberated Western women... but it took Tide with Dawn StainScrubbers (http://www.tide.com/en-US/product/tide-with-dawn-stainscrubbers.jspx) to "liberate" my jeans of those pesky grease stains. Thanks, Tide!

On an unrelated note, do the Jolt ads seem to be getting more intrusive?

I woke up with a jolt ad in my bed this morning. Granted I drank pretty heavily last night and she did look very good in the dimly lit bar.

Well, if you believe the article that was written by a woman it is THE WASHING MACHINE! :eek:

Do you believe it?


I believe that's part of it. Washing clothes by hand is a very large undertaking. My mother in law who is Moroccan washed the families clothes by hand in Morocco. I was so appalled by the amount of time it consumed I bought her a Washing machine which is about two months average salary in Morocco. She still air drys however it is no where near as time consuming. So yes I have seen it first hand.

honour - from Anglo-Fr. honour, from O.Fr. honor, from L. honorem (nom. honos) "honor, dignity, office, reputation" c. 1200 ... also refers to chastity in women. c 1390

Dignity...reputation...chastity...

Not really helping your argument there, FS.

Blue jeans.

Well there were phases, but underlying all of them, women were responsible for the liberation of Western women.

Starting with the Suffragette movement, made inescapable by WW1, broadened due to household white goods, and fought for by the equality movement after WW2.

I believe that's part of it. Washing clothes by hand is a very large undertaking. My mother in law who is Moroccan washed the families clothes by hand in Morocco. I was so appalled by the amount of time it consumed I bought her a Washing machine which is about two months average salary in Morocco. She still air drys however it is no where near as time consuming. So yes I have seen it first hand.

I bet she loves you to death.

Probably getting the vote. That's more important than any object.

So, what do you think has done it?

Modern appliances did help liberate women in my view; tasks that used to take days now take a mere few hours, and involve little effort on a woman's part. I do think though that in some regards, it was economic necessity as well - household costs have increased significantly since World War II, and incomes haven't kept up; it is simply impossible these days to run a household on only one income unless it is pretty damn high.

I'd say it was a combination of things, the pill being among them for sexual liberation, the washing machine for making the traditional roles obsolete as no woman needed to spend all her time with housework any more, and most certainly WW I showing women that they could. in fact, do the exact same work to the exact same level as men could.

Mind you, all of the above just laid the ground for women's liberation. The actual liberation itself was done by women realising that they were being oppressed, and fighting against it.

How about throwing the decline of religion into the mix eh, eh?

How about throwing the decline of religion into the mix eh, eh?

I think that may have been more of a consequence rather than a cause...

Men finally recognising that woman are fully formed human beings with opinions that actually matter and the ability to do most jobs as well as men and some better?
Wait, when the fuck did that happen?

Wait, when the fuck did that happen?

Hasn't yet, but it's getting better. You can't teach all men in just, what, 4 generations? It'll take a lot longer than that to sink in, I'm afraid.

the washing machine for making the traditional roles obsolete as no woman needed to spend all her time with housework any more
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/on-women/2008/4/7/wives-do-more-housework-study-shows.html

Yep, certainly no more traditional roles.

The washing machine - yes. In fact, once humanity invents a machine that will make me a sandwich and fetch my beer, females will become extinct!

We already have machines to give me a blowjob? Gimmeh!

Hasn't yet, but it's getting better. You can't teach all men in just, what, 4 generations? It'll take a lot longer than that to sink in, I'm afraid.
Meh, don't bother trying to "teach" men that kind of thing. Educate girls and women, force through laws that give them equal rights, and they'll do all the hard work themselves. That's how women's lib has progressed through all of history. Women WANT rights, they WANT equality, and they're going to fight to get them. Just gotta get the fuck out of their way and let em'. :D

Boys and men follow quite naturally once they've got mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives, and daughters who are educated, capable human beings.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/on-women/2008/4/7/wives-do-more-housework-study-shows.html

Yep, certainly no more traditional roles.

Hey, I never said they didn't exist any more.
I just said they became obsolete, as in it doesn't make any sense at all to continue them.
That people are stupid enough to continue them nevertheless is just, well, humanity. Never let sense stand in the way of good ol' "That's what we always done and we ain't changin' it just cause it stoopid"

We already have machines to give me a blowjob? Gimmeh!
Well if you get yourself a vacuum cleaner with a soft brush attachment...

Meh, don't bother trying to "teach" men that kind of thing. Educate girls and women, force through laws that give them equal rights, and they'll do all the hard work themselves. That's how women's lib has progressed through all of history. Women WANT rights, they WANT equality, and they're going to fight to get them. Just gotta get the fuck out of their way and let em'. :D

Boys and men follow quite naturally once they've got mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives, and daughters who are educated, capable human beings.

True, quite true.
But you're still currently faced with an awful lot of men who don't have educated and capable mothers, sisters, wives or daughters. And it's those guys you need to actively pull out of their happy ignorance.

Funnily enough, you also get men (my BF for example), who grew up without having all that many educated women around them. And he somehow managed to turn out ok despite it.

Hey, I never said they didn't exist any more.
I just said they became obsolete, as in it doesn't make any sense at all to continue them.
That people are stupid enough to continue them nevertheless is just, well, humanity. Never let sense stand in the way of good ol' "That's what we always done and we ain't changin' it just cause it stoopid"
Well, but that's the thing. You said that the washing machine made gender roles obsolete. But that's not remotely true.

The function of gender roles isn't "to get housework done," so the invention of an appliance that helps do chores doesn't impact gender roles at all. The function of gender roles is, among other things, "to designate one sex (female) as the sex responsible for doing all the unpaid domestic labor that nobody much wants to do but which has to get done somehow."

Kind of like how people claimed that the invention of the cotton gin would help end slavery, but it actually just meant that slaves would be expected to produce more cotton each day.

*OBLIGATORY NOTE FOR ANNOYING PEOPLE: I am not comparing modern women to cotton-plantation slaves. That's not the parallel I was going for.*

it is simply impossible these days to run a household on only one income unless it is pretty damn high.

Not at all true. Our household has always been a one income household and I was in the military for over 20 years. We raised two kids on that income. My son has been in the military for almost 20 years now and is raising two kids on one income.

Well if you get yourself a vacuum cleaner with a soft brush attachment...

Woah... dangerous advise! ;)

Well, but that's the thing. You said that the washing machine made gender roles obsolete. But that's not remotely true.

The function of gender roles isn't "to get housework done," so the invention of an appliance that helps do chores doesn't impact gender roles at all. The function of gender roles is, among other things, "to designate one sex (female) as the sex responsible for doing all the unpaid domestic labor that nobody much wants to do but which has to get done somehow."

Kind of like how people claimed that the invention of the cotton gin would help end slavery, but it actually just meant that slaves would be expected to produce more cotton each day.

*OBLIGATORY NOTE FOR ANNOYING PEOPLE: I am not comparing modern women to cotton-plantation slaves. That's not the parallel I was going for.*

I don't fully agree, to be honest.

My grandmother once demonstrated to us how long it took her to do the wash for a family of 5, when I was younger.
It took up the better part of 3 days. First day was spent pre-treating spots and staines, and soaking the wash.
The second day was spent scrubbing and agitating the wash, while always tending to the fire to make sure the wash didn't get too hot or too cold, and then hanging it up to dry.
The third day was spent starching and ironing the wash.

In a situation like this, with household tasks taking up whole days (and I'm talking up to 12 hours a day here), it simply made sense to split the roles and have one being responsible for the household, and the other one working the fields or in the factories. It would not have been manageable otherwise.

Once the washing machine, freezer, etc. came along, it became possible for both partners to go out to work, simply because the housework was reduced to a level where it can be split between the two and easily managed. The fact that it's still women who are doing it mostly is a sad evidence of human ability to cling to outdated concepts.

Mind you, I'm not saying the washing machine single-handedly freed women. If you read back, I also said that WW I did a good bit in helping women realise that they can be independent and earn their own money, and helped the women's lib movement along quite a bit. And there are many more factors.
But I think domestic appliances, profane as it might sound at first, did play a vital role in the process of equality.

If we're discussing technological artifacts that helped women liberate themselves, I'm going to nominate the bicycle:

[T]he bicycle will accomplish more for women's sensible dress than all the reform movements that have ever been waged. ~Author Unknown, from Demerarest's Family Magazine, 1895

The bicycle is just as good company as most husbands and, when it gets old and shabby, a woman can dispose of it and get a new one without shocking the entire community. ~Ann Strong

“I’ll tell you what I think of bicycling. I think it has done more to emancipate women than any one thing in the world. I rejoice every time I see a woman ride by on a bike. It gives her a feeling of self-reliance and independence the moment she takes her seat; and away she goes, the picture of untrammelled womanhood.”
Susan B. Anthony, 1896

And, of course, Gloria Steinem: "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle."

Men finally recognising that woman are fully formed human beings with opinions that actually matter and the ability to do most jobs as well as men and some better?

Which happened only after the women got liberated from house chores... by the washing machine.

If we're discussing technological artifacts that helped women liberate themselves, I'm going to nominate the bicycle:

[T]he bicycle will accomplish more for women's sensible dress than all the reform movements that have ever been waged. ~Author Unknown, from Demerarest's Family Magazine, 1895

The bicycle is just as good company as most husbands and, when it gets old and shabby, a woman can dispose of it and get a new one without shocking the entire community. ~Ann Strong

“I’ll tell you what I think of bicycling. I think it has done more to emancipate women than any one thing in the world. I rejoice every time I see a woman ride by on a bike. It gives her a feeling of self-reliance and independence the moment she takes her seat; and away she goes, the picture of untrammelled womanhood.”
Susan B. Anthony, 1896

And, of course, Gloria Steinem: "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle."

You sound like a person that sniffs woman's bicycle seats. :eek:

Once they got the vote. Then the next step was World War II. After the got employed in factories, that was it there was no going back. Then finally the 60's that was the last straw.