NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090309/bs_afp/usautocompanyfordunion_20090309194809

Looks like Ford and the UAW have reached an agreement on keeping the company, and the UAW going for a while. The union gave up some things but it's far better than saying NO and having Ford dump hundreds or even thousands of jobs.

we have to wait and see if it works... *crosses fingers*

i didn't see any concessions from ford about agreeing to make cars people actually want to buy, so this doesn't seem likely to work out for them

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090309/bs_afp/usautocompanyfordunion_20090309194809

Looks like Ford and the UAW have reached an agreement on keeping the company, and the UAW going for a while. The union gave up some things but it's far better than saying NO and having Ford dump hundreds or even thousands of jobs.

It will be interesting to see if this is a systemic change for Ford. I have the unfortunate suspicion that this was engineered to weaken the unions, and that we won't be seeing any kind of equivalent cuts and concessions elsewhere in the heirarchy.

If Ford starts talking about taking government money, now, we'll know I was right about the situation being engineered.

i didn't see any concessions from ford about agreeing to make cars people actually want to buy, so this doesn't seem likely to work out for them
This.

i didn't see any concessions from ford about agreeing to make cars people actually want to buy, so this doesn't seem likely to work out for them

This.

Wait? I thought unions were evil and unyielding?

Wait? I thought unions were evil and unyielding?

until the company is about to go belly up. now lets just make sure the CEO don't go take a trip to Vegas with the money they saved.

i didn't see any concessions from ford about agreeing to make cars people actually want to buy, so this doesn't seem likely to work out for them

Ford has rapidly increased the production of the Focus, one of the most in-demand cars currently, plus plans to introduce 6 European cars into US markets...of the big 3, they are in the best position with the best models to continue. And they are still the 4th largest in sales (after Toyota, GM, and Volkswagen)

I like how all the money that is to be saved is from health-care benefits...

...but of course, we shouldn't take the burden of these obligations, amounting to billions of dollars, off of the backs of these companies and let the government handle it, cause that would be un-American. :rolleyes:

[/threadjack]

until the company is about to go belly up. now lets just make sure the CEO don't go take a trip to Vegas with the money they saved.

It's debateable whether spending that saved money on building more Ford automobiles is more of a boost to the economy than the CEO using it to buy drinks and poker chips in Vegas. I'm not being facetious here. There's no likelihood to be any consumer demand for Ford (or any other car manufacturer even the more popular Japanese ones). It might be better for the CEO of Ford to give some business to Vegas casinos (which themselves are in financial straits and need all the business they can get), rather than build F-150s that will just sit in the dealer's lot unsold. All the automakers' inventories are overflowing already anyways.

Ford has rapidly increased the production of the Focus, one of the most in-demand cars currently, plus plans to introduce 6 European cars into US markets...of the big 3, they are in the best position with the best models to continue. And they are still the 4th largest in sales (after Toyota, GM, and Volkswagen)

Car sales will be in a coma for a long time to come. There's not nearly enough demand - anywhere in the world- to justify the huge inventories and manufacturing capacities of all the Big 3 automakers (and not just the Big 3; the Japanese and other foreign companies are dealing with exactly the same excess inventory-and-capacity problem)

It's debateable whether spending that saved money on building more Ford automobiles is more of a boost to the economy than the CEO using it to buy drinks and poker chips in Vegas. I'm not being facetious here. There's no likelihood to be any consumer demand for Ford (or any other car manufacturer even the more popular Japanese ones). It might be better for the CEO of Ford to give some business to Vegas casinos (which themselves are in financial straits and need all the business they can get), rather than build F-150s that will just sit in the dealer's lot unsold. All the automakers' inventories are overflowing already anyways.

part of the issue is higher wages made smaller cars less profitable.
Also the union resisted mechanization of the labor force (your going to phase out 1% of us to replace with machines screw you we are all going on strike).

I think they are banking on the other two companies collapsing and getting to take their market shares.

i didn't see any concessions from ford about agreeing to make cars people actually want to buy, so this doesn't seem likely to work out for them
Ford does make a few cars I'd actually want to buy, under some circumstances. The GT is definitely a good one. The problem is, there are better Japanese and German counterparts available for comparable prices. And with the exception of Mercedes-Benz, the build quality is as good or better.

of the big 3, they are in the best position with the best models to continue.

By a fricken mile. They're actually the only American car company to have a big presence (apart from GM's Holden) here in Aus, AFAIK.

Ford has rapidly increased the production of the Focus, one of the most in-demand cars currently, plus plans to introduce 6 European cars into US markets...of the big 3, they are in the best position with the best models to continue. And they are still the 4th largest in sales (after Toyota, GM, and Volkswagen)

Exactly; of the Big 3, they were the only ones that didn't need the government money immediately, they just wanted a line of credit. I have to largely agree with the OP.

By a fricken mile. They're actually the only American car company to have a big presence (apart from GM's Holden) here in Aus, AFAIK.

GM (Holden) outsells Ford by a comfortable margin.

GM (Holden) outsells Ford by a comfortable margin.

Yeah, but Holden's an Australian brand which is owned by GM. It's technically a GM presence, but they wouldn't be doing nearly as well if it was one of their American brands.

Also the union resisted mechanization of the labor force (your going to phase out 1% of us to replace with machines screw you we are all going on strike).

what else should they do? the benefits of mechanization go to everyone but the union, unless the union exercises its bargaining might to make it otherwise.

Yeah, but Holden's an Australian brand which is owned by GM. It's technically a GM presence, but they wouldn't be doing nearly as well if it was one of their American brands.

Well GM is using Holden's rear wheel drive architecture for all of their new cars... so they've become one!:eek2:

I thought Holden was formed by GM though... I'll be right back...

In 1852, James Alexander Holden emigrated to South Australia from England and in 1856 established J.A. Holden & Co, a saddlery business in Adelaide.[1] Edward Holden, James' son, joined the firm in 1905 with an interest in automobiles.[2] From there, the firm evolved through various partnerships and, in 1908, Holden and Frost moved into the business of minor repairs to car upholstery.[3] The company began to produce complete motorcycle sidecar bodies in 1913, and Edward experimented with fitting bodies to different types of carriages.[4] After 1917, wartime trade restrictions led the company to start full-scale production of vehicle body shells.

J.A. Holden founded a new company in 1919, Holden's Motor Body Builders Ltd (HMBB) specialising in car bodies. By 1923, HMBB were producing 12,000 units per year.[3] During this time, HMBB was the first company to assemble bodies for Ford Australia until their Geelong, Victoria, plant was completed.[5] From 1924, HMBB became the exclusive supplier of car bodies for GM in Australia, with manufacturing taking place at the new Woodville, South Australia plant.[6] These bodies were made to suit a number of chassis imported from manufacturers such as Chevrolet and Dodge.[3] The Great Depression era led to a substantial downturn in production, from 34,000 units annually in 1930 to just 1,651 units one year later.[3] In 1931, General Motors purchased the business and formed General Motors–Holden's Ltd.[7] Since then, two name changes have occurred: the first, in 1998, changed the name to Holden Ltd, and the second, in May 2005, to GM Holden Ltd.

So they built only bodies and imported the chassis to put them on until GM bought them in 1931.

what else should they do? the benefits of mechanization go to everyone but the union, unless the union exercises its bargaining might to make it otherwise.

Sacrifice the few to save the many?

Well GM is using Holden's rear wheel drive architecture for all of their new cars... so they've become one!:eek2:

I thought Holden was formed by GM though... I'll be right back...



So they built only bodies and imported the chassis to put them on until GM bought them in 1931.

Even so, the point was, Holden is successful here because it's (perceived, at least, as) an Australian brand.

Sacrifice the few to save the many?

nah, that undermines their union-ness pretty significantly. what's really needed is a way so that current workers who get displaced reap at least some reasonable portion of the benefits of mechanization.

Even so, the point was, Holden is successful here because it's (perceived, at least, as) an Australian brand.

However, you can't quantify that advantage.

Without that advantage, would Ford sell more cars than GM in Australia? How would you even begin to prove that?

Is the mythology of Holden just going to dissolve suddenly, improving Ford's competitive position in the Australian market?

No, so it's quite irrelevant to the viability of Ford.

Ford has rapidly increased the production of the Focus, one of the most in-demand cars currently, plus plans to introduce 6 European cars into US markets...of the big 3, they are in the best position with the best models to continue. And they are still the 4th largest in sales (after Toyota, GM, and Volkswagen)

well, hopefully that works for them. because at some point we'll hit peak truck, and i expect it fairly soon.

However, you can't quantify that advantage.

Without that advantage, would Ford sell more cars than GM in Australia? How would you even begin to prove that?

Is the mythology of Holden just going to dissolve suddenly, improving Ford's competitive position in the Australian market?

No, so it's quite irrelevant to the viability of Ford.

The only point I was trying to make is that Ford is the only American company to come here, as Americans, and achieve success.

well, hopefully that works for them. because at some point we'll hit peak truck, and i expect it fairly soon.

What is "peak truck"?

What is "peak truck"?

like peak oil, but for trucks. a majority of ford's sales have been from the f-series for awhile now, and that doesn't strike me as sustainable, at least on the current scale.

Shit, I thought you meant the truck system.

Ford shouldn't have dropped the Mercury Sable though. Impressive family car, wish we had it here in England.

well, hopefully that works for them. because at some point we'll hit peak truck, and i expect it fairly soon.I'd say we're well past peak truck...though, the F-series will remain as one of the best trucks out there (there will still be a market, just a much reduced one).

Ford has swapped many of its plants from SUV/truck production to car production over the past year...they seem to agree that peak truck has hit, and have the ability to respond.

I'd say we're well past peak truck...though, the F-series will remain as one of the best trucks out there (there will still be a market, just a much reduced one).

Ford has swapped many of its plants from SUV/truck production to car production over the past year...they seem to agree that peak truck has hit, and have the ability to respond.

I don't think that will help them. Peak car has hit too.

I don't think that will help them. Peak car has hit too.

Doubtful unless there is some alternative to cars that I am unaware of...

Peak car would imply that we have hit the maximum number of sales we will ever see. Sales will be low for several years, yes. But that isn't quite what "peak car" and "peak truck" imply.

I'd say we're well past peak truck

depends. the economic instability and crisis have mucked things up, but there may yet be an upsurge. if not here, than presumably elsewhere in the world.

Doubtful unless there is some alternative to cars that I am unaware of...

Peak car would imply that we have hit the maximum number of sales we will ever see. Sales will be low for several years, yes. But that isn't quite what "peak car" and "peak truck" imply.
There is an alternative- used cars.

The world has indeed hit the maximum number of new car sales we will ever see for a long, long time.

Even Honda and Toyota sustained massacres in their sales numbers last quarter. Ford's not going to move many Focuses in the short to medium term. In the long term, if the economy genuinely revives, trucks might very well come into demand again and be a profitable business again.

There's always talk about how the automakers should make "cars that people want." What is being frequently overlooked is that people don't want to buy anything at all. Demand for consumer goods is in a coma right now, and there aren't really any reasons why this will change in the medium term.

depends. the economic instability and crisis have mucked things up, but there may yet be an upsurge. if not here, than presumably elsewhere in the world.
I have no doubt that there will be something of an upsurge...but I also think that there has been something of a fundamental shift in mentality...not much different from what we saw in our grandparents who lived in the Great Depression. I'm sure they'll grow, as will all car sales...but I don't think trucks will ever reach the same massive volume they enjoyed in the 90's. Particularly if oil costs go up again (as they will)

There is an alternative- used cars.

The world has indeed hit the maximum number of new car sales we will ever see for a long, long time.

Even Honda and Toyota sustained massacres in their sales numbers last quarter. Ford's not going to move many Focuses in the short to medium term. In the long term, if the economy genuinely revives, trucks might very well come into demand again and be a profitable business again.

There's always talk about how the automakers should make "cars that people want." What is being frequently overlooked is that people don't want to buy anything at all. Demand for consumer goods is in a coma right now, and there aren't really any reasons why this will change in the medium term.
used cars are great for the time being, but eventually, you simply have to buy a new car or put even more money into getting the old car to run. As I said, car sales will be bad for several years...that still isn't what "peak car" implies.
I also have no doubt that trucks will become profitable again...they cost little more to build, but sell for many times more. I just don't think they will ever reach their highest peak of the 90's again in terms of percentage of vehicle sales.

I have no doubt that there will be something of an upsurge...but I also think that there has been something of a fundamental shift in mentality...not much different from what we saw in our grandparents who lived in the Great Depression. I'm sure they'll grow, as will all car sales...but I don't think trucks will ever reach the same massive volume they enjoyed in the 90's. Particularly if oil costs go up again (as they will)


used cars are great for the time being, but eventually, you simply have to buy a new car or put even more money into getting the old car to run. As I said, car sales will be bad for several years...that still isn't what "peak car" implies.
I also have no doubt that trucks will become profitable again...they cost little more to build, but sell for many times more. I just don't think they will ever reach their highest peak of the 90's again in terms of percentage of vehicle sales.

"Peak car" implies dropping off a cliff in terms of car sales and not being able to climb back up to that lofty cliff. Last quarter's sales and profit numbers from all the car manufacturers show we've already dropped off a cliff. Everyone's paying attention to how Detroit is in dire straits but we should't be surprised if even a Japanese car firm goes belly up in this recession.

So we have the fall off the cliff. What remains to be seen is if new vehicle sales ever go back to their old highs. Evidence suggests this will not occur. As you said, there is a fundamental shift in mentality. We're moving away from the 1 car/1 man incredibly high ratio that we got used to during the boom times, and instead move toward more materially modest lifestyles.

All the factors for "peak car" are here- shift in mentality, shift in economics, shift in demographics (away from the car-dependent sprawl mode of living).