NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7927178.stm

British special forces return to Northern Ireland for the first time since 1997, the newly formed SRR have been deployed for behind the scenesintelligence gathering.

Personally I am not surprised, Northern Ireland being part of the UK allows the SRR to operate there anyway. Hopefully this won't escalate an already supposedly sticky situation.

EDIT.

Attack on British soldiers in Northern Ireland, 2 killed unfortunately.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930837.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930837.stm)

EDIT 2.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm

Police officer killed in NI.

EDIT 3.

Bomb found. One at Sinn Finn building, Police searching train station.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933409.stm

But what can the SRR do that a modern police agency can't? Why are they needed?

I guess the SRR have the benefit of being armed and combat trained. As well as being specialist intelligence gatherers.

But what can the SRR do that a modern police agency can't? Why are they needed?

To piss off the Irish, duh...I mean, after what they did, joinin Mel Gibson and all, can you blame them? lol

I guess the SRR have the benefit of being armed and combat trained. As well as being specialist intelligence gatherers.

These days the police - EDIT: certain elite branches that is - are quite advanced at this, more subtle as well. Deploying the special forces is just taking the piss.

These days the police - EDIT: certain elite branches that is - are quite advanced at this, more subtle as well. Deploying the special forces is just taking the piss.

The police are targets for dissidents in NI. Special forces could remain undercover I guess.

I don't support the notion of sending them out either.

To piss off the Irish, duh...I mean, after what they did, joinin Mel Gibson and all, can you blame them? lol

Do you think they deployed the SRR, and not the mighty SAS or SBS, to piss them off even more so?

The police are targets for dissidents in NI. Special forces could remain undercover I guess.

Unless someone announces that they're coming before they arrive.

Oh shi-

Do you think they deployed the SRR, and not the mighty SAS or SBS, to piss them off even more so?The SAS are -not- for domestic work. They're designed killers, and they're VERY good at it. Their training and conditioning would make them absolutely the worst possible thing to release in NI right now. They would make things worse.

Perhaps the new SRR is more properly suited to the role.

The SAS are -not- for domestic work. They're designed killers, and they're VERY good at it. Their training and conditioning would make them absolutely the worst possible thing to release in NI right now. They would make things worse.

Perhaps the new SRR is more properly suited to the role.

I believe that was exactly what he was implying...that it would piss them off even more so...

Admittedly, I had no idea what he was talking about before your post, but I believe Ive connected the dots quite expertly so from there, lol...:p

Yeah yeah I wasn't being serious, it was just referencing the old joke about how the SRR are pussies who can't handle any of the serious stuff and are only used for the easiest jobs. It's obviously bullshit in real life.

time to start sending more guns and money back to the IRA

But what can the SRR do that a modern police agency can't? Why are they needed?

Extra manpower

Yeah yeah I wasn't being serious, it was just referencing the old joke about how the SRR are pussies who can't handle any of the serious stuff and are only used for the easiest jobs. It's obviously bullshit in real life.

How can it be an old joke... the SRR was only founded 3 years ago :confused:

Looking over the article it does appear that they are entierly there to support police operations (or so they say), arguably the additional manpower and expertise may have been required because the NI police were overstreched (let's face it, most police forces are). Though why they use the SRR and not MI5 I don't know.

Though why they use the SRR and not MI5 I don't know.

Well they did absorb previous intelligence units which were deployed in NI so I would assume they have the most experience of such a role

Well they did absorb previous intelligence units which were deployed in NI so I would assume they have the most experience of such a role

I thought they only absorbed military intelligence units, MI5 was nonetheless still active in N Ireland. This said, thinking about it, I believe MI5 is quite over-streched at the moment, so it could be they couldn't spare anyone even if they did have the experience needed.

I thought they only absorbed military intelligence units, MI5 was nonetheless still active in N Ireland. This said, thinking about it, I believe MI5 is quite over-streched at the moment, so it could be they couldn't spare anyone even if they did have the experience needed.

Yeah the JCU(NI)

How can it be an old joke... the SRR was only founded 3 years ago :confused:

Looking over the article it does appear that they are entierly there to support police operations (or so they say), arguably the additional manpower and expertise may have been required because the NI police were overstreched (let's face it, most police forces are). Though why they use the SRR and not MI5 I don't know.

Eh, really? Either the joke wasn't as old as I thought then, or I'm mixing them up with another organisation. I was kind of a bit drunk when I posted that as well.

Good, i'm sick of those Irish with their 'craic' and 'poteen'.

misleading thread title is misleading

I can't see why we don't just get the Irish guards to do this

The SAS are -not- for domestic work. They're designed killers, and they're VERY good at it.

actually you will find they are very good at counter terrorism and such I just wouldn't want to be in the back of one of their vans handcuffs or not :p

fucking serious types

It's obviously bullshit in real life.

well actually >_>

think of the kind of people who would go into such a regiment

Good, i'm sick of those Irish with their 'craic' and 'poteen'.

*lands on a pot of gold right on top of the n00b*

Oops. The luck o' the Irish!

well actually >_>

think of the kind of people who would go into such a regiment

SRR? A lot of women who want to do special forces work who can't join either the SAS or SBS? So technically...

Well it stands to reason. Gordon Brown is Scottish Presbyterian - the very people who started all the problems in Northern Island.

(Runs away and hides.)

Why are they needed?
MSM news reports are saying that police in NI were worried about the recent activity of "Republican dissidents".

SRR? A lot of women who want to do special forces work who can't join either the SAS or SBS? So technically...

exactly! >_>

Hold on, I though Saint Blair had saved the day in Northern Ireland?

misleading thread title is misleading

Noticed that too. Though I guess "UK forces return to UK territory" doesn't have the same ring to it...

Noticed that too. Though I guess "UK forces return to UK territory" doesn't have the same ring to it...

You remind me of the US v America arguments from a while back. Northern Ireland is in the island of Ireland.

You remind me of the US v America arguments from a while back. Northern Ireland is in the island of Ireland.

Yeh, but it's not Ireland.

/Irish - kinda used to this argument.

You remind me of the US v America arguments from a while back. Northern Ireland is in the island of Ireland.

But is part of the United Kingdom. The thread title may be technically true but is nonetheless misleading.

Hold on, I though Saint Blair had saved the day in Northern Ireland?

I think its nothing more than an elaborate booze cruise myself

Noticed that too. Though I guess "UK forces return to UK territory" doesn't have the same ring to it...

I was thinking more "British soldiers to spend disproportionate amounts of time in Irish public toilets"

its also missing the part where we never really left

I think its nothing more than an elaborate booze cruise myself



I was thinking more "British soldiers to spend disproportionate amounts of time in Irish public toilets"

its also missing the part where we never really left

Lol :P

We withdrew troops in 2005, after agreeing not to send new ones after the Good Friday Agreement of 98. Whats special about this deployment is that we are deploying extra forces in a role that wasn't previously needed, and we have gone straight to the special forces to do so.

Irish history is not my strong point, if anyone could verify or correct me it would be great.

Sorry for the slightly misleading title as well, it was 6am when I made this, just got up for college and check the news and saw it :P

We withdrew troops in 2005, after agreeing not to send new ones after the Good Friday Agreement of 98. Whats special about this deployment is that we are deploying extra forces in a role that wasn't previously needed, and we have gone straight to the special forces to do so.


Although arguably we have gone straight to a special forces group which has a history of supporting police operations in relation to counter-terrorism as this is not a traditional deployment per se, but rather a depolyment of additional manpower in support of the action of a civiliain law enforcement agency. In other words, I have a feeling that the SRR probably does get deployed under various circumstances to Special Branch and MI5 operations all over the UK and the only reason this is really raising eyebrows is because it's Northern Ireland and there is a lot of history there (and issue with the Good Friday aggreement, though I imagine they can get around this due to the type of deployment and unit used).

Although arguably we have gone straight to a special forces group which has a history of supporting police operations in relation to counter-terrorism as this is not a traditional deployment per se, but rather a depolyment of additional manpower in support of the action of a civiliain law enforcement agency. In other words, I have a feeling that the SRR probably does get deployed under various circumstances to Special Branch and MI5 operations all over the UK and the only reason this is really raising eyebrows is because it's Northern Ireland and there is a lot of history there (and issue with the Good Friday aggreement, though I imagine they can get around this due to the type of deployment and unit used).

the question is will the IRA see it that way?

time to start sending more guns and money back to the IRA
Fuck the IRA.
why they use the SRR and not MI5 I don't know.
C'est pas mutually exclusive.

Fuck the IRA.


I am sure the feeling is mutual, but your blind and mutual hate aside, if they feel the agreement is null and void it puts you back where you were before 1998.

I am sure the feeling is mutual, but your blind and mutual hate aside, if they feel the agreement is null and void it puts you back where you were before 1998.
Yeah but without money or guns since some Americans got blown up a few Septembers back and their pals realised that terrorism is actually pish.

Yeah but without money or guns since some Americans got blown up a few Septembers back and their pals realised that terrorism is actually pish.

we Americans are kings of the double standard.
Whom we support is never a terrorist. besides the IRA reps hit up the bars on Saint Patrick's day while we are good and drunk and talk us into massive donations.

we Americans are kings of the double standard.
Not that it's anything to be proud of, but not really.
Whom we support is never a terrorist. besides the IRA reps hit up the bars on Saint Patrick's day while we are good and drunk and talk us into massive donations.
Yeah maybe if you're one of these Americans with an utterly strange nostalgia for being Irish or something.

"Woo we're not English or something, hurrah let's drink Guinness and pretend we have real traditions"

Not that it's anything to be proud of, but not really.

not really so proud actually
Yeah maybe if you're one of these Americans with an utterly strange nostalgia for being Irish or something.

"Woo we're not English or something, hurrah let's drink Guinness and pretend we have real traditions"

you'd be surprised.... Scottish and Irish are like the two most common ethnic groups we like to be proud of. The Germans may out number them but since they killed Jews 70 years ago they are not so popular.
Its our lack of deep history, combined with wanting to be the oppressed.
Hence why we are perhaps the most crazed plastics you will ever meet.

Whats special about this deployment is that we are deploying extra forces in a role that wasn't previously needed, and we have gone straight to the special forces to do so.
Granted the SRS won't have been involved much previously, what with the unit only being around for a few years, but UK special forces/intelligence agents have been running aboot NI for yonks.

I am sure the feeling is mutual, but your blind and mutual hate aside, if they feel the agreement is null and void it puts you back where you were before 1998.

I believe that the situation in N.Ireland has fundamentally changed since before 1998. While this may kick up a bit of a fuss (it invariably will) but there's been a real generational change in perception of the conflict.
There was a paper realised a couple of weeks ago containing suggestions for moving on from the troubles and it was a really good example of what I'm talking about. One of the suggestions was that all the families of people killed in the trouble got £12,000-including familes of terroists killed in the troubles. Predicatably this cause uproar across the community but really only in the older generations. There was a news report on kids in secondary school and their feelings on it. Most of them didn't care.
I'm sure that the arrival of the army into N.Ireland will cause political problems and trouble in the estates but I don't believe that the environment for the violence we expereinced in past exsists anymore.

The SAS are -not- for domestic work.

So the Iranian embassy siege was what then? Not in England? Did their deployment in Northern Ireland never happen? Has everything they've ever done in the UK ceased to exist?

I believe that the situation in N.Ireland has fundamentally changed since before 1998. While this may kick up a bit of a fuss (it invariably will) but there's been a real generational change in perception of the conflict.
There was a paper realised a couple of weeks ago containing suggestions for moving on from the troubles and it was a really good example of what I'm talking about. One of the suggestions was that all the families of people killed in the trouble got £12,000-including familes of terroists killed in the troubles. Predicatably this cause uproar across the community but really only in the older generations. There was a news report on kids in secondary school and there feelings on it. Most of them didn't care.
I'm sure that the arrival of the army into N.Ireland will cause political problems and trouble in the estates but I don't believe that the environment for the violence we expereinced in past exsists anymore.

Well put

Well put

:tongue:
I've had to get used to explaining the situation now that I'm living in Scotland.

Yeah maybe if you're one of these Americans with an utterly strange nostalgia for being Irish or something.

"Woo we're not English or something, hurrah let's drink Guinness and pretend we have real traditions"
But... but.... what else do they have? :tongue:


I've had to get used to explaining the situation now that I'm living in Scotland.

*pets* Poor bastard.

:tongue:
I've had to get used to explaining the situation now that I'm living in Scotland.

Aye I know the feeling although what with me going to the Scottish campus of the University of Ulster people are a bit more in the know

*pets* Poor bastard.

Aye I know the feeling although what with me going to the Scottish campus of the University of Ulster people are a bit more in the know

It's a difficult life. I'm at St Andrews so its mostly English and American people asking the (sometimes odd) questions.

It's a difficult life. I'm at St Andrews so its mostly English and American people asking the (sometimes odd) questions.
Whereas I, being brought up in the benighted state of not knowing for most of my life whether the church I attended was Protestant or Catholic, went to Glasgow for uni, walked into the wrong pub, and had to endure some old biddy screaming at me, demanding to know whether I was a Fenian or not...

Do you think they deployed the SRR, and not the mighty SAS or SBS, to piss them off even more so?

If the bloody PIRA start up again, I'd like to see the SAS get involved. Teach those bastards a lesson: AGAIN.

If the bloody PIRA start up again, I'd like to see the SAS get involved. Teach those bastards a lesson: AGAIN.

What lesson would that be? I think we figured out shooting people that were face down on the ground was easy on our own.....

What lesson would that be? I think we figured out shooting people that were face down on the ground was easy on our own.....

To not fuck with the British?

To not fuck with the British?


Hmmmm, resisted for a few hundred years, won independence. Had "terrorist" campaign for few decades, "terrorists" now in coalition Government.

A lesson well learned.

If the bloody PIRA start up again, I'd like to see the SAS get involved. Teach those bastards a lesson: AGAIN.

Gibraltar eh. The SAS got some really bad press for that, they got the right men, was the way they did it that got them criticised.

Gibraltar eh. The SAS got some really bad press for that, they got the right men, was the way they did it that got them criticised.

O that was one their far better known ones. Back in the north they did similiar, but with two eejits trying to rob a shop with a toy gun. Stood over one of them and put 13 rounds in him.

What lesson would that be? I think we figured out shooting people that were face down on the ground was easy on our own.....

We?

Shots fired at soldiers in NI tonight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930837.stm

Shots fired at soldiers in NI tonight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930837.stm
*sigh* Bloody kids.

2 dead soldiers. :(

When will those Brits learn. Everybody knows Domino's like to know BEFORE they deliver that you have a buy one get one free voucher.

hopefully not time of troubles take 2

hopefully not time of troubles take 2
Not bloody likely, however much you might want it ;)

When will those Brits learn. Everybody knows Domino's like to know BEFORE they deliver that you have a buy one get one free voucher.

Although the delivery guys won't actually take it off you, thus allowing you to use it until forever.

Not bloody likely, however much you might want it ;)

id rather prefer a peaceful accord. that could be upheld and have a system to mediate any future disputes as they may arise.

The SAS are -not- for domestic work..

What on earth are you talking about? Presuming you consider Northern Ireland as 'domestic', the SAS were active there from at least the 80's.


They're designed killers, and they're VERY good at it. Their training and conditioning would make them absolutely the worst possible thing to release in NI right now. They would make things worse.

It did not stop Thatcher in the 80's, and it won't stop Thatcher-loving Brown if he fancies it.

Perhaps the new SRR is more properly suited to the role.


It's an over-reaction that will inflame the situation, and I believe the attack on the barracks last night was a direct example of this.

misleading thread title is misleading

I can't see why we don't just get the Irish guards to do this



actually you will find they are very good at counter terrorism and such I just wouldn't want to be in the back of one of their vans handcuffs or not :p

fucking serious types



well actually >_>

think of the kind of people who would go into such a regiment



I always remember a documentary I saw in regards to The Iranian Embassy Siege that one of the hostage-takers came out unarmed with the released hostages, pretending to be one of the hostages.

When this was pointed out by genuine hostages, the SAS began to drag the unarmed man back inside the embassy to kill him.


However, television cameras were recording, and so he was saved from execution.


Later, when reviewing the operation, the SAS soldiers involved were watching the playback on TV.


One of them however, could not see the TV because a woman sitting in front was in the way.


He growled "Move your head, bitch." to the woman who then turned around to face him.


It was Thatcher.


I don't remember him saying he apologised.

It did not stop Thatcher in the 80's, and it won't stop Thatcher-loving Brown if he fancies it.
Yeah right, Brown's pathetic. He wouldn't have the bottle. I'm no Thatcher worshipper but she certainly stoop up to terrorists.

It's an over-reaction that will inflame the situation, and I believe the attack on the barracks last night was a direct example of this.
It was only a matter of time before an attack like this happened, 'dissident' republicans have been increasingly active. The most the recent announcement would only have broughtit forward at the most. Something like this has probably be planned for a while.

Anyway, I wonder what will happen if they catch the killers. Knowing this government, probably give them a generous compensation package for the distress they suffered. And a seat in government.

Yeah right, Brown's pathetic. He wouldn't have the bottle. I'm no Thatcher worshipper but she certainly stoop up to terrorists.

It's precisely why Brown is pathetic why he would do this, especially now, and with his ratings low. Nothing like giving someone a jolly good thrashing' to gain populist sentiments.

As for Thatcher, she fuelled and inflamed the conflict and the cause of the Republican cause with her irreconilliable madness and supported the Unionist Paramilitaries, whose aims were merely to kill Catholics.


She relied on violence to stay in power. Be it The Falklands, (Without which, she would have lost the next election.) The Miner's Strike (Send in The Met to beat the Miners up) or Northern Ireland (Sending in the SAS to fill people with lead and making no explorations of peace.)


It was only a matter of time before an attack like this happened, 'dissident' republicans have been increasingly active. The most the recent announcement would only have broughtit forward at the most. Something like this has probably be planned for a while..


It's called inflaming the situation by pumping in more and more UK forces on the quiet. What happened last night was the reaction.


Anyway, I wonder what will happen if they catch the killers. Knowing this government, probably give them a generous compensation package for the distress they suffered. And a seat in government.


Not a supporter of the 1998 Good Friday agreement then.

It's precisely why Brown is pathetic why he would do this, especially now, and with his ratings low. Nothing like giving someone a jolly good thrashing' to gain populist sentiments.

As for Thatcher, she fuelled and inflamed the conflict and the cause of the Republican cause with her irreconilliable madness and supported the Unionist Paramilitaries, whose aims were merely to kill Catholics.

She relied on violence to stay in power. Be it The Falklands, (Without which, she would have lost the next election.) The Miner's Strike (Send in The Met to beat the Miners up) or Northern Ireland (Sending in the SAS to fill people with lead and making no explorations of peace.)
I won't agree with everything Thatcher did by any means, but at least she gave this the stong leadership it needed (And needs).

It's called inflaming the situation by pumping in more and more UK forces on the quiet. What happened last night was the reaction.
Surely you don't think something like this wasn't planned out? I seriously doubt they put the whole thing together in about two days.

Not a supporter of the 1998 Good Friday agreement then.
I don't like giving in to terrorists. The most it will ever give you is a temporary lull in the conflict. When you give into them it send out a message that terrorism is an effective way of achieving political aims and will encourage not just them, but numerous other terrorist groups to mount attacks against you in the future. How can any of them take seriously the rehetoric that terrorism doesn't work when you cave into them. Also, IRA attacks in the 1990s were at an all time low (Probably due to Thatcher's stong anti-terrorist policies), you don't give into the enemy when you're beating them.

Hold on, I though Saint Blair had saved the day in Northern Ireland?
Contrast today, if you will, to the years where hundreds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_troubles#Chronological_listing) of people died in the islands of Great Britain and Ireland, the IRA was active (as opposed to dissidents) and there was no power-sharing or prospect of it. If you ask me, Major, Blair, Mowlam and their Irish counterparts have all done a pretty good job.

But let's not not let facts get in the way of a Labour is teh suxorz rant, right?

It was only a matter of time before an attack like this happened, 'dissident' republicans

Why the ' ' ?

Whereas I, being brought up in the benighted state of not knowing for most of my life whether the church I attended was Protestant or Catholic, went to Glasgow for uni, walked into the wrong pub, and had to endure some old biddy screaming at me, demanding to know whether I was a Fenian or not...

For some reason, even though I was a "prod", I always ended up being called a fenian. Thats what I get for having a catholic best friend. Maybe they could smell his fenian smell...(I know a guy who did honestly get beaten up for smelling like a catholic. It was ridiculous. He was a prysbeterian. They smell much worse ;) )
Sad to hear the news about the attack. When you hear about stuff like that it always brings a chill to the back of the neck. Hoping that there is no revenge attacks.

I know a guy who did honestly get beaten up for smelling like a catholic. It was ridiculous. He was a prysbeterian. They smell much worse ;)
Smells like Geneva.

Sad to hear the news about the attack. When you hear about stuff like that it always brings a chill to the back of the neck. Hoping that there is no revenge attacks.
Quite.

Update,
The Real IRA have claimed responsibility, and they have found the car.

I really hope that IF stuff kicks off, it stays in Ireland this time. Both my parents were bombed by the IRA. I don't want to add to that. :p

Theres no support for it. Theres been very few attacks, and most have been unsuccessful. Theres perhaps no more than 100 involved, and most of them would be support rather than active.

Sad to see violence happening there again. It'd been like 12 years since the last time there was a fatality, from a sniper bullet I believe.

Sad to see violence happening there again. It'd been like 12 years since the last time there was a fatality, from a sniper bullet I believe.

Omagh bombing of 98? 29 people dead? All the occasional shootings throughout the 2000s? They didn't happen?

Omagh bombing of 98? 29 people dead? All the occasional shootings throughout the 2000s? They didn't happen?

I think he means military death - Lance Corporal Stephen Restorick (IIRC) was shot by an PIRA sniper in 1997... give or take.

Omagh bombing of 98? 29 people dead? All the occasional shootings throughout the 2000s? They didn't happen?

And since Omagh, 11 years ago, fuck all has gone on. Far more happens in Manchester or Glasgow of a rough weekend, in fact. Theres no appetite for it anymore. This shower aren't going to 'kickstart' anything.

And since Omagh, 11 years ago, fuck all has gone on. Far more happens in Manchester or Glasgow of a rough weekend, in fact. Theres no appetite for it anymore. This shower aren't going to 'kickstart' anything.

Did I say it would? There's been the occasional potshot at police etc, but that's all. I know that, and you know I know that.

Blimey, McGuinness is looking old (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7931271.stm).

What do people expect?

How the Irish feel about the English (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6XBM015wg8)

Though to be clear, when I say Irish, I mean the 'Irish' of the 77 names, who aren't really Irish in any case.

Those people just like fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUa2cE8UicM&NR=1

how the Irish act now mostly

What do people expect?

How the Irish feel about the English (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6XBM015wg8)
Ironically, I'm being told I can't view this in my country...

Ironically, I'm being told I can't view this in my country...

Summary:

We'll still fight. Six counties under tyranny &c. Mo Mowlam is a cow's arse.


Teh land of the free I'd guess. Sooner you boys opt out of the illegitimate Union the better.

Didnt Harrison Ford put an end to this in '92?

Ironically, I'm being told I can't view this in my country...

better get your Independence soon lads or you will only be able to look at British propaganda before long.

better get your Independence soon lads or you will only be able to look at British propaganda before long.

English bastards.

My family fought at Flodden for them. What thanks did we get? Nothing. Thanks wankers.

Didnt Harrison Ford put an end to this in '92?
Brad Pitt is the best looking IRA fighter I've ever seen.


Teh land of the free I'd guess. Sooner you boys opt out of the illegitimate Union the better.
better get your Independence soon lads or you will only be able to look at British propaganda before long.
Might be some time coming (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/05/snp-independence-referendum-plan-rejected).

Brad Pitt is the best looking IRA fighter I've ever seen.




Might be some time coming (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/05/snp-independence-referendum-plan-rejected).

Idk why you'd want out anyway, i mean,youd have like, no purchasing power on your own, no Global Reach...

Main reason we stay to tell you the truth, lol...

Idk why you'd want out anyway, i mean,youd have like, no purchasing power on your own, no Global Reach...
Ach, this isn't the place to get into the merits or not of Scottish independence.

Main reason we stay to tell you the truth, lol...
Who's 'we' and where are you staying?

Might be some time coming (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/05/snp-independence-referendum-plan-rejected).

So the SNP should drop the NP from its platform?

Rubbish. I demand Scottish independence now so I can get on with my own independence project.

Mind you, since Flower of Scotland can only be properly played on northumbrian smallpipes that should tell you all you need to know about the entire project in the first place.

Mind you, since Flower of Scotland can only be properly played on northumbrian smallpipes that should tell you all you need to know about the entire project in the first place.

that Northumbria is part of Scotland.

that Northumbria is part of Scotland.

Over my dead body.

Over my dead body.

with Obama diverting government funds to pay for the IRA, seems bound to happen.

Mind you, since Flower of Scotland can only be properly played on northumbrian smallpipes...
One note difference. :P

I play the pipes, and the alt version (with the third-last note changed so it doesn't drop below low-G) is perfectly valid; many instruments have songs changed to fit their tuning.

Though I do prefer the smallpipes. After all, the Highland pipes are an instrument of war...

with Obama diverting government funds to pay for the IRA, seems bound to happen.

failte gu alba.

I think not.

I play the pipes...

Now that is cool.

Though I do prefer the smallpipes. After all, the Highland pipes are an instrument of war...

Hmm, I'm the opposite. I like the skirl of the highland pipes. Smallpipes just don't do it for me.

failte gu alba.

I think not.
Awww...

You're always welcome.

Hmm, I'm the opposite. I like the skirl of the highland pipes. Smallpipes just don't do it for me.
'Prefer' might be too strong, on second thought.

There's a time and a place for both. I have a venerable set of Highland pipes (they've been to Africa and back when my grandfather was young; disturbed hippos in the Congo) which I love to play, though I rarely get the chance these days. I would love a set of smallpipes, Scottish or Northumbrian... perhaps Uilleann, to play in my flat or take down the pub, but they're too damn expensive at the moment.

They're fun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7zmd4rYh1o&playnext_from=PL&feature=PlayList&p=B84AE0E24CB0E7BB&playnext=1&index=55) to play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVztCC37wlc&feature=related) with friends.

Best thing I have in the meantime is my flatmate's MIDI chanter, which can play both small and Highland tones.

failte gu alba.

I think not.

you didn't read the news? after he sunbed the UK prime minister, it was revealed the stimulus package was really a front to fund the IRA.

Ach, this isn't the place to get into the merits or not of Scottish independence.


Who's 'we' and where are you staying?

I meant the "Countries" of the British Isles as a whole....


And...the residents of Mississippi, and Im staying in Biloxi, and it was a joke about the Civil War, lol...

Blimey, McGuinness is looking old (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7931271.stm).

Going on 60, a life spent involved in armed struggle...plus in Government with the DUP...all take their toll.

Blimey, McGuinness is looking old (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7931271.stm).

90% of Americans think he owns a beer company.

Going on 60, a life spent involved in armed struggle...plus in Government with the DUP...all take their toll.
All those lovely curly locks, gone.

Well, he looks better than Gerry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4).

All those lovely curly locks, gone.

Well, he looks better than Gerry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4).

Class.

Well Gerry had 3 bullets put in him at point blank (the famous 'off duty police' incident), so all told, hes in good nick.

Shots fired at soldiers in NI tonight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930837.stm

And the NISGS guards stood by and watched without even firing a shot at the attackers. Good work guys :rolleyes:

And the NISGS guards stood by and watched without even firing a shot at the attackers.
Do you know their ROE in situations like this?

I won't agree with everything Thatcher did by any means, but at least she gave this the stong leadership it needed (And needs)..


It was not strong leadership, it was the inability to reason and a lack of being in touch with reality. There's a difference.


Surely you don't think something like this wasn't planned out? I seriously doubt they put the whole thing together in about two days.


UK forces have been pumped in on the quiet for a while now. This won't have gone unnoticed. As I said, the attack on the barracks was the reaction.


I don't like giving in to terrorists. The most it will ever give you is a temporary lull in the conflict.

I don't like not reasoning, because not reasoning leads to the prolonging and the worsening of conflict, and the death and destruction it brings.


Better to swallow the pride at the table of reason than to swallow the tears at the graveside of another pointless death which could be prevented.


When you give into them it send out a message that terrorism is an effective way of achieving political aims and will encourage not just them, but numerous other terrorist groups to mount attacks against you in the future..

As our cousins across the pond say and with no offence I say, 'Wake up and smell the coffee.' Terrorism can be effective and can work. Israel was founded after a campaign of terrorism, as was Zimbabwe, and Algeria gained it's independence from France because of it.


One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and that is why terrorism continues. Face the roots and causes of this and you begin to tackle the problem. Confront violence with violence and you bring more violence, and more recruits to it.


How can any of them take seriously the rehetoric that terrorism doesn't work when you cave into them. Also, IRA attacks in the 1990s were at an all time low (Probably due to Thatcher's stong anti-terrorist policies)


Thatcher resigned in 1990 that's why, and so her rabidly confrontational attitude went with her.


She did NI a favour by leaving, and did the UK a favour as a whole.


Blair is often wholly credited with The Good Friday Agreement. I credit Major for recognising that reason had to be the order of the day and beginning the process.



you don't give into the enemy when you're beating them.


The IRA were not beaten, at best for the UK, it was a bloody stalemate, but which was costing lives.


By negotiation, you give a little. It goes for both sides.

Do you know their ROE in situations like this?

An army spokesman would not give details of the security guards’ rules of engagement other than to say that they were allowed to open fire in self-defence.


What is 'reasonable force' and does the law protect you?

Anyone can use 'reasonable force' to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent a crime. You are not expected to make fine judgements over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you only do what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of you acting lawfully and in self-defence. This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon.

As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defence.

Best I can do unfortunately

The IRA were not beaten, at best for the UK, it was a bloody stalemate, but which was costing lives.
Indeed.

The British Army admitted just this.


Best I can do unfortunately
Aye, nae worries.

I'd imagine the ROE is pretty strict for an armed guard representing the British state in NI. I wasn't there, so I can't say what should or shouldn't have been done, but you can think of the dilemma: 'if I shoot and kill a Republican paramilitary, do I start up the Troubles again?'

Aye, nae worries.

I'd imagine the ROE is pretty strict for an armed guard representing the British state in NI. I wasn't there, so I can't say what should or shouldn't have been done, but you can think of the dilemma: 'if I shoot and kill a Republican paramilitary, do I start up the Troubles again?'

That may be the case but i'd much rather have a guard whose first instinct is to protect the victim of a violent attack rather than a guard who stops, thinks about the infinite number of outcomes of his actions, and then realises it's too late to act.

It might sound like i'm saying that they should shoot first and think later but, if their role had been made clear to them prior to this event, they should have acted in that role rather than worrying about the political consequences.

The killing of the soldiers is just as likely to start up the Troubles as the killing of their attackers.

The killing of the soldiers is just as likely to start up the Troubles as the killing of their attackers.
Nope. You start getting reprisal attacks by British forces and then the Real IRA gets back into action, etc. etc. etc.

Nope. You start getting reprisal attacks by British forces and then the Real IRA gets back into action, etc. etc. etc.

Self defence (or the defence of others) in a situation such as this is a reprisal attack?

Self defence (or the defence of others) in a situation such as this is a reprisal attack?
That's how the IRA would have painted it.

That's how the IRA would have painted it.

So sacrifice the soldiers instead and show the weaknesses in the security of your own bases. How is that better?

If the IRA want the Troubles to restart they'll make it happen with or without such an occurance.

I agree that inflammatory events should be avoided where possible but I don't see this as an avoidable event

That's how the IRA would have painted it.

The RIRA possibly, I'm not so sure about the PIRA. This isn't like before, the attackers are isolated groups, they aren't supported by the communites like the provisional IRA.the status quo suits both the nationlist and loyalist paramilitaries. Make a tidy profit in the estates through drug selling and what not. Why risk that over the killing of dissidents.

It might sound like i'm saying that they should shoot first and think later but, if their role had been made clear to them prior to this event, they should have acted in that role rather than worrying about the political consequences.

I'm far from an expert on the army in NI but I'd imagine that a big part of the training for being an armed guard would be not to do anything that could start the troubles again. I'd imagine that the ROE would require mulitiple loud warnigs before opening fire, so any witnesses would know who started the shoot-out, which would give a belligerant plenty of time to get away.

I'm far from an expert on the army in NI but I'd imagine that a big part of the training for being an armed guard would be not to do anything that could start the troubles again. I'd imagine that the ROE would require mulitiple loud warnigs before opening fire, so any witnesses would know who started the shoot-out, which would give a belligerant plenty of time to get away.

I doubt that ANY such services advise shouting at a gunman who is preparing to fire again at a fallen target.

I doubt that ANY such services advise shouting at a gunman who is preparing to fire again at a fallen target.

You'd be surprised. Guard ROEs for army facilities in the UK include some very tight regulations regarding discharging a weapon.

So sacrifice the soldiers instead and show the weaknesses in the security of your own bases. How is that better?
It's called "picking your battles". Why resort to tit-for-tat killings that plagued the province for the previous 40 years?

If the IRA want the Troubles to restart they'll make it happen with or without such an occurance.
The IRA don't want to restart the Troubles. They're in government.

It's called "picking your battles". Why resort to tit-for-tat killings that plagued the province for the previous 40 years?

Because it's not a tit-for-tat killing and it's definitely not something a guard should be worrying about in a self defence situation

I'd also add that I agree that you should pick your battles but this is one that shouldn't be avoided


The IRA don't want to restart the Troubles. They're in government.

I never thought they (PIRA) did want to restart the Troubles.

You'd be surprised. Guard ROEs for army facilities in the UK include some very tight regulations regarding discharging a weapon.

If you can show me ROEs that say that an imminent threat to the life of another should be approached in such a way then i'll believe you. Until then i'm skeptical

If you can show me ROEs that say that an imminent threat to the life of another should be approached in such a way then i'll believe you. Until then i'm skeptical

I could probably find an in UK ROE card knocking around the house somewhere.

The problem is that those cards have all kinds of dire warnings stamped on them for revealing their contents.

If I can find a source online then I'll link it, that way I get to avoid jail and you get your proof. :)

Edit: A hint though, my experience of British ROEs take the word "self" in "self-defence" very literally.

I find it crazy that the army hired in security guards to defend an army base.

Even if they are targets, the soldiers should be able to defend themselves and their territory.

I find it crazy that the army hired in security guards to defend an army base.
Perhaps a read-up on the history of NI might be in order?

I find it crazy that the army hired in security guards to defend an army base.

Even if they are targets, the soldiers should be able to defend themselves and their territory.

Personally I found it amazing that you could order pizza into an army base in N.Ireland. I would have thought that security would have been tighter than that.

Perhaps a read-up on the history of NI might be in order?

Yes, its not my strong point.

I really should, its bound to come up in my degree.

I could probably find an in UK ROE card knocking around the house somewhere.

The problem is that those cards have all kinds of dire warnings stamped on them for revealing their contents.

If I can find a source online then I'll link it, that way I get to avoid jail and you get your proof. :)

Edit: A hint though, my experience of British ROEs take the word "self" in "self-defence" very literally.

Were you in the NISGS (or a similar security guard service)?

Update.

Now a Police officer has been shot.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm)

And bombs found.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933409.stm

Hmm, looks like stuffs starting to kick off.

Update.

Now a Police officer has been shot.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm)

And bombs found.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933409.stm

Hmm, looks like stuffs starting to kick off.

Or not. The RIRA has like 60 members. Nothing's gonna happen.

Or not. The RIRA has like 60 members. Nothing's gonna happen.

Surely it depends on how well armed, trained, supported, or indeed plain stupid the RIRA are which limits the damage they can do?

Surely it depends on how well armed, trained, supported, or indeed plain stupid the RIRA are which limits the damage they can do?

They've been up to the same shit for the past few years. I'm not overly worried

They've been up to the same shit for the past few years. I'm not overly worried

I guess this is the first time I've been old enough to realise what's going on.

Also, I was kinda brought up with this weariness of this sort of thing. As both my parents were victims of IRA bombings.

I guess this is the first time I've been old enough to realise what's going on.

Also, I was kinda brought up with this weariness of this sort of thing. As both my parents were victims of IRA bombings.

I think this is a pretty good quote (and it's the first time i've ever liked something Ian Paisley has said) :

"There is grieving, there is despair, but beyond the despair there is being born a spirit of unity that we have never seen before."

Oh and check out wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_IRA) if you want a list of some of their other recent attempts (or look at the Independent Monitoring Commission Reports for more detail)

Or not. The RIRA has like 60 members. Nothing's gonna happen.

The shooting is much more likely to be linked to the CIRA rather than the RIRA based on the area it occured in

Update : Yup (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5880089.ece)

Edit: A hint though, my experience of British ROEs take the word "self" in "self-defence" very literally.

The Times disagrees (although they don't cite a source). It seems that there were 5 soldiers grouped together and only two of them were downed so I can understand the guards choice now

The force is 450 strong and its members are trained to use their weapons in anger only for self-protection and the protection of others. The ministry said that their role was to control access to each of the regular military locations and to be ready for “first-response tasks”, but it was reluctant to spell out what range of weaponry was available to the guards at the barracks.

The shooting is much more likely to be linked to the CIRA rather than the RIRA based on the area it occured in

Update : Yup (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5880089.ece)


It's a little bit of rivalry between the two, to see who has more 'street cred' and can draw disillusioned members of the PIRA.


Basically, the CIRA probably felt that if they did not do something after what the RIRA did, the RIRA would have more credibility with disillusioned members of the PIRA than them.


Then again, the CIRA and RIRA might just join forces, the general feeling being 'why split the resistance into two factions?'


Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA, Real IRA, No-You-Are-Not-We-Are-The-Genuine-IRA-So-There-and-Yah-boo.


It reminds me of the sketch from The Life of Brian, with all the Judea Liberation fronts.

I guess this is the first time I've been old enough to realise what's going on.

Also, I was kinda brought up with this weariness of this sort of thing. As both my parents were victims of IRA bombings.

There has been an upsurge in dissident republican activities. I know a couple of months ago there was a carbomb found in castlewellan. Still it's not the first time that there has been an burst of attacks. Two years ago, the MDF near my house got firebombed.
The people of N.Ireland are pretty damn weary of this as well. The group carrying out the attack is acting without any popular support. There is no desire for this to kick off again.

It reminds me of the sketch from The Life of Brian, with all the Judea Liberation fronts.

I agree with you although I don't see the CIRA and RIRA joining together to form one group.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/ake0009l.jpg

Personally I found it amazing that you could order pizza into an army base in N.Ireland. I would have thought that security would have been tighter than that.


It's been a decade.

It's been a decade.

I know, when I think about it, it should be obvious. I guess it just caught me by surprise. I mean, I still find it weird that the police stations outside N.Ireland aren't built like mini-fortresses.

It reminds me of the sketch from The Life of Brian, with all the Judea Liberation fronts.

if thats the case then let the brits pull out, and all the IRAs will kill each other ?

if thats the case then let the brits pull out, and all the IRAs will kill each other ?

Unfortunately they would inevitably drawn in the other community, thus leading to a horrendous bloodbath. There's a level of hate there that doesn't take much to come to the surface.

Of course on the silver lining side, it'll give the Muslims some time off, when the focus goes back to Paddy bashing.

Unfortunately they would inevitably drawn in the other community, thus leading to a horrendous bloodbath. There's a level of hate there that doesn't take much to come to the surface.

Of course on the silver lining side, it'll give the Muslims some time off, when the focus goes back to Paddy bashing.

until they start blaming the Muslims for training the Irish again.

Unfortunately they would inevitably drawn in the other community, thus leading to a horrendous bloodbath. There's a level of hate there that doesn't take much to come to the surface.

Of course on the silver lining side, it'll give the Muslims some time off, when the focus goes back to Paddy bashing.

Pulling out of NI isnt a question, its UK territory with UK citizens, we have to defend both it and them.

And, did the Paddy bashing ever stop? :p

Pulling out of NI isnt a question, its UK territory with UK citizens, we have to defend both it and them.


Colonising a piece of Ireland over a few hundred years with people considering themselves British does not make that piece of Ireland British, and it shouldn't in any just international law.

It's lebensraum, to keep a hold of a piece of foreign territory and filling it with people considering themselves British, to then claim a legitimate hold on a piece of Ireland.


I for one do not recognise it as being part of anything to do with British sovereignty.


Akin to the Irish invading England and encouraging Irish people to settle in the West of England and then calling it a province of Ireland.


Province indeed! Absurd. Perhaps when we get over our collective yearnings of the imperialist past will we recognise this as a whole.

Colonising a piece of Ireland over a few hundred years with people considering themselves British does not make that piece of Ireland British, and it shouldn't in any just international law.

It's lebensraum, to keep a hold of a piece of foreign territory and filling it with people considering themselves British, to then claim a legitimate hold on a piece of Ireland.


I for one do not recognise it as being part of anything to do with British sovereignty.


Akin to the Irish invading England and encouraging Irish people to settle in the West of England and then calling it a province of Ireland.


Province indeed! Absurd. Perhaps when we get over our collective yearnings of the imperialist past will we recognise this as a whole.

your right the only solution is for the Irish and the British to put the piece of land under my control. And 1/3 the US military put under my control to protect the land. we will call it the Dukedom of Greed and Death.

until they start blaming the Muslims for training the Irish again.

O it was all 'Communist/marxist/socialist' then- the whole "3bbil muslim" thing is a concept that only really took off after September 2001, hence my contempt and scorn for same. That was in Lebanon and Libya - combat training. We have the bomb thing fairly well pinned down - I think the first went off in Britain around the mid 1860's.

O it was all 'Communist/marxist/socialist' then- the whole "3bbil muslim" thing is a concept that only really took off after September 2001, hence my contempt and scorn for same. That was in Lebanon and Libya - combat training. We have the bomb thing fairly well pinned down - I think the first went off in Britain around the mid 1860's.

does anyone really know what to do with that part of the island anymore ?

does anyone really know what to do with that part of the island anymore ?

It's actually chugging along quite well, apart from these recent incidents. Hopefully they'll prove to be the exception. Certainly the last 10 to 11 years would almost give one cause for optimism.

Colonising a piece of Ireland over a few hundred years with people considering themselves British does not make that piece of Ireland British, and it shouldn't in any just international law.

It's lebensraum, to keep a hold of a piece of foreign territory and filling it with people considering themselves British, to then claim a legitimate hold on a piece of Ireland.


I for one do not recognise it as being part of anything to do with British sovereignty.


Akin to the Irish invading England and encouraging Irish people to settle in the West of England and then calling it a province of Ireland.


Province indeed! Absurd. Perhaps when we get over our collective yearnings of the imperialist past will we recognise this as a whole.

And when every geographical region in the world is given back to it's original inhabitants i'll treat this argument as anything other than rubbish.

Colonising a piece of Ireland over a few hundred years with people considering themselves British does not make that piece of Ireland British, and it shouldn't in any just international law.
So in the name of justice these people should be forced to be Irish?

It's lebensraum, to keep a hold of a piece of foreign territory and filling it with people considering themselves British, to then claim a legitimate hold on a piece of Ireland.
The term was plantation.


I for one do not recognise it as being part of anything to do with British sovereignty.
Great. I do.


Akin to the Irish invading England and encouraging Irish people to settle in the West of England and then calling it a province of Ireland.
Which is how the world used to work.


Province indeed! Absurd. Perhaps when we get over our collective yearnings of the imperialist past will we recognise this as a whole.

Sure, and then Italy will go back to being a series of city states :rolleyes:

And when every geographical region in the world is given back to it's original inhabitants i'll treat this argument as anything other than rubbish.



It's called Northern Ireland for a reason, not 'The North-Westernly Region of Britain'.

And when every geographical region in the world is given back to it's original inhabitants i'll treat this argument as anything other than rubbish.



It's called Northern 'Ireland' for a reason, not 'The North-Westernly Region of Britain'.

So in the name of justice these people should be forced to be Irish?:

As opposed to forcing Irish people to be British? Those considering themselves British can stay so, they will just be living abroad.


The term was plantation.


The Germans called it Lebensraum, the British call it plantation. Same objective, same thing.



Great. I do.


Jolly good for you.



Which is how the world used to work.


...And how it's not supposed to now.




Sure, and then Italy will go back to being a series of city states :rolleyes:


Ask any inhabitant on the land of Italy from any town if they feel occupied by Italy, ask them indeed, if they are Italian. :rolleyes:

It's called Northern 'Ireland' for a reason, not 'The North-Westernly Region of Britain'.

That's your counter argument? Seriously?

And when every geographical region in the world is given back to it's original inhabitants i'll treat this argument as anything other than rubbish.

Exactly... so America, when you going to move out and give the land back to the Native Americans?

As opposed to forcing Irish people to be British? Those considering themselves British can stay so, they will just be living abroad.
Why didn't someone suggest this to the UDA years ago?

I'm glad you've sorted everything out now.

Next Week: The State of It tells the Congo to stop messing about.

Colonising a piece of Ireland over a few hundred years with people considering themselves British does not make that piece of Ireland British, and it shouldn't in any just international law.

It's lebensraum, to keep a hold of a piece of foreign territory and filling it with people considering themselves British, to then claim a legitimate hold on a piece of Ireland.


I for one do not recognise it as being part of anything to do with British sovereignty.


Akin to the Irish invading England and encouraging Irish people to settle in the West of England and then calling it a province of Ireland.


Province indeed! Absurd. Perhaps when we get over our collective yearnings of the imperialist past will we recognise this as a whole.

Personally I consider myself N.Irish, Irish and Birtish in that order. The majority of N.Irish people want it to be part of Britain so it should remain part of the UK.

I don't really care if my wee part of the world is part of Republic of Ireland or Britain. I don't care about revisiting past wrongs, centuries old, just for the sake of it. I don't care about where some arbitary border is drawn. Irrelevant.

What I do care about is the healing of the divides in my soceity, about the hate and sectarianism, about preventing ourselves from slipping back into the trouble, we dragged ourselves out of it over the last decade. That is relevant.

I don't really care if my wee part of the world is part of Republic of Ireland or Britain. I don't care about revisiting past wrongs, centuries old, just for the sake of it. I don't care about where some arbitary border is drawn. Irrelevant.

What I do care about is the healing of the divides in my soceity, about the hate and sectarianism, about preventing ourselves from slipping back into the trouble, we dragged ourselves out of it over the last decade. That is relevant.
*applauds*

Well said, sir/ma'am.

Personally I consider myself N.Irish, Irish and Birtish in that order. The majority of N.Irish people want it to be part of Britain so it should remain part of the UK.

I don't really care if my wee part of the world is part of Republic of Ireland or Britain. I don't care about revisiting past wrongs, centuries old, just for the sake of it. I don't care about where some arbitary border is drawn. Irrelevant.

What I do care about is the healing of the divides in my soceity, about the hate and sectarianism, about preventing ourselves from slipping back into the trouble, we dragged ourselves out of it over the last decade. That is relevant.

Ditto to all of the above

*applauds*

Well said, sir/ma'am.

Ditto to all of the above

I think more and more people are beginning to feel that way. For the 1st time ever, more people say they are N.Irish, rather than British or Irish. It might seem a trival thing but I think its indicative of a real change in soceity.