NationStates Jolt Archive


If youre in a good mood, read this...

Knights of Liberty
05-03-2009, 02:35
...to ruin it.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/03/04/darfur.rape/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

As the International Criminal Court issues a landmark warrant for the arrest of Sudanese President Omar Hassan al-Bashir over war crimes in Darfur, CNN's Nic Robertson interviews a man who was told to rape and kill children.

(CNN) -- I wanted to believe the man in front of me wasn't a rapist. I knew he was a former Sudanese soldier, I knew he wanted to talk about rape in Darfur. A humanitarian group working on Darfur issues had introduced him to us. They told us his testimony was important to hear.

Last year in Darfur aid workers told me children as young as five were being raped in the huge displacement camps that are home to several million Darfuris. In some camps, they told me, rape had become so common that as many as 20 babies a month born from rape were being abandoned.

As I sat inches from Adam --not his real name -- I feared the revulsion I knew I would feel at my own questions as I asked about rape and his involvement. I have interviewed rape survivors in Darfur. I have two daughters. I am a human being with a conscience. It would be hard to listen to his replies.

He told me he was conscripted by force in to the Sudanese army in the summer of 2002. He thought he was being taken for six months' national service and then would be released.

The conversation was slow going at first. We were both holding off from delving into the sordid details he'd come to discuss. His answers were short, he told me he got no pay from the army, only food and drink.

He said he was rounded up in an army truck from a market in Darfur and trained to kill. He said he was armed with Kalashnikovs and told to "shoot targets." Watch ex-soldier describe brutal attacks on children to Nic Robertson ยป

Then, he says, his officers told him "we will be taken to a patrol and then soon after that we were asked to join other people to go and burn and kill people".

See how you can make a difference in children's lives around the world
That's when he says he realized he wasn't getting national service training, that in fact, he was being forced into war against his will, with his own people. "They are black," he told me, noting the difference between the lighter skinned rulers of Sudan and the darker farmers of Darfur. "I am black," he said, "this shouldn't be happening."

But, he said, worse than being told to kill his own people, was that if he tried to resist, he himself would be killed. "The order is that the soldiers at the front, and there are some people who are watching you from behind, if you try to escape or do anything you will get shot. The order is that we go to the village, burn it and kill the people."

It felt as Adam was beginning to open up a little -- not easy, given the topic, and the lights and cameras all around us. He was beginning to talk a bit more, answer questions with more than one or two words. But it was following a pattern: I'd have to lead the way. We were both waiting for the inevitable. How he came to know of rape in Darfur.

And that's when he said it.

He brought up the rape by himself. He was talking through a translator but his voice was quiet. I thought I heard anger, heard him slow and his voice drop: "I had no choice," he said "but I will say that I didn't kill anybody but the raping of the small children, it was bad" I knew this was going to be difficult and now it had begun.

What happens with the children, I asked. "They cry out," he answered. "And what happens when they cry out?" "Two persons will capture her while she is crying and another raping her, then they leave her there," came his reply.

Silence. "What do I ask now?" I thought. Be forensic. Get the story. This is important testimony, I reminded myself.

And so we continued, Adam describing in detail how soldiers raped girls as young as 12. How officers ordered them to do this to make people flee their villages, run away and never come back. Through all of this, Adam didn't once mention whether he actually had been directly involved in the raping.

He said he tried to desert the army as soon as he could, but was caught and tortured. He showed me the scars where he said he was tied down beneath a tree and officers set fire to tires above him, dripping burning rubber on his body.

Eventually, he said, he did get away, went to his sisters, tried joining the rebels to fight the army. But even there, his troubles were far from over. Incredibly, he said, the rebels didn't trust him; he was kept at their camp and only escaped when it was bombed by the army.

The end of his story, but we weren't really done. One more question.

Had he been forced to rape children?

"Yes I did, they were government orders," came his reply.

How many? "Well it didn't feel like raping, I was feeling very bad but as I was ordered, I had to do something. What I did was take off my trousers and lay myself on top of the girl but I didn't feel like raping, so I lay there for about 15 minutes."

I want to be sure I understand him. "So you didn't actually penetrate the girls?" I ask. No, he says, "because I had no feeling for it, my penis didn't actually wake up, so there was no actual penetration," he replied.

There were other people in the room, the translator, a cameraman, our producer Jonathan Wald, but I had forgotten they were there. My thoughts were entirely locked on Adam.

What more could I ask? I was emotionally drained. There was no way of knowing whether he was telling me the truth. Only in the measure of his voice was there a clue.

Here, sitting on an office chair, thousands of miles away from Darfur, the memories come flooding back. The many, traumatized women and children we've interviewed, distraught families, unable to protect themselves. The pain we put them through, to recount, to relive, their nightmares.

Each time, I've asked myself can I justify the suffering these questions cause? Each time, I tell myself it is only their own accounts that can cast light on the darkened corner of humanity they inhabit. Only their own accounts that can help break their cycle of suffering.

Time and again, though, it seems telling the world their stories has little tangible impact on their reality of their lives. And now I'm face-to-face with a man who says he was part of the suffering, albeit by his own account not complicit and not guilty.


I am left with the thought perhaps Adam's words carry even greater power. If his story is true -- and it mirrors other accounts emerging from Darfur -- then it implicates the government in these terrible crimes.

He says he has trouble sleeping at nights. I can understand why. He is not alone. Aid workers say millions of women in Darfur not only have trouble sleeping at nights, but live in fear of rape 24 hours a day.


:(

Oh, and in before Nuremberg comments/references.
The Parkus Empire
05-03-2009, 02:37
Suddenly, I am not as bothered by Obama mentioning his willingness to send the Marines into Africa.
Knights of Liberty
05-03-2009, 02:39
Suddenly, I am not as bothered by Obama mentioning his willingness to send the Marines into Africa.

Problem is, it cant just be the US. The West has been wagging its finger long enough at Sudan. Everyone needs to do something. Not just the US.

And it needs to be done well. Africa is already fucked up. We dont want to add another armed faction to the mix.

Overcoming the logistics issues and actually getting a force into Africa will be hard enough.
The Parkus Empire
05-03-2009, 02:43
Problem is, it cant just be the US. The West has been wagging its finger long enough at Sudan. Everyone needs to do something. Not just the US.

And it needs to be done well. Africa is already fucked up. We dont want to add another armed faction to the mix.

Overcoming the logistics issues and actually getting a force into Africa will be hard enough.

It is a difficult issue, as we do not want another Iraq on our hands. But I agree that we definitely need to be more proactive in stopping this,
Knights of Liberty
05-03-2009, 02:48
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/03/20093422176727224.html


We fail.
The Parkus Empire
05-03-2009, 02:50
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/03/20093422176727224.html


We fail.

Expletives fail me.
DaWoad
05-03-2009, 02:51
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/03/20093422176727224.html


We fail.

Wish I could say Canada had done any better :(
New Manvir
05-03-2009, 03:11
Wish I could say Canada had done any better :(

Canada is a member of the ICC...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court
Knights of Liberty
05-03-2009, 03:13
Im genuinly curious what would happen if he stepped on US soil. Chances are, we would arrest him and hand him over. I just dont think the government wants to commit to anything related to a treaty shrubs didnt sign.
The Atlantian islands
05-03-2009, 03:20
I had never really thought about it before....but now thinking about it, physically, you have to really be into, like really be sick, to actually rape someone. I mean, you probably couldn't be forced to it, because you'd be so nervous and not turned on your penis wouldn't get erect. I know this is a weird topic but I'm actually thinking about it from reading that story and it would be nice if people would be mature about it.

Edit: He could have been lying, but I mean, in general.

Edit 2: Are the rulers of Sudan Arab while the native people in general Black? Is that what he was mentioning?
Knights of Liberty
05-03-2009, 03:21
I had never really thought about it before....but now thinking about it, physically, you have to really be into, like really be sick, to actually rape someone. I mean, you probably couldn't be forced to it, because you'd be so nervous and not turned on your penis wouldn't get erect. I know this is a weird topic but I'm actually thinking about it from reading that story and it would be nice if people would be mature about it.

Agreed, and I think thats why "Adam" handled it the way he did. Just kinda lied there, so it looked like he was raping her so his squadies or COs didnt shoot him, but not doing it because he clearly wasnt a sociopath.


Edit: He could have been lying, but I mean, in general.

He could have been, and the journalist had that though cross his mind, but I wonder why he would? What would he have to gain?

Edit 2: Are the rulers of Sudan Arab while the native people in general Black? Is that what he was mentioning?

I think its "shades" of black.
The Atlantian islands
05-03-2009, 03:22
Agreed, and I think thats why "Adam" handled it the way he did. Just kinda lied there, so it looked like he was raping her so his squadies or COs didnt shoot him, but not doing it because he clearly wasnt a sociopath.
Plus two edits that you missed.
greed and death
05-03-2009, 03:27
the US has not signed on to the ICC. there for it is not our job to go get him. youve issued you ruling now let you enforce it.
Knights of Liberty
05-03-2009, 03:29
the US has not signed on to the ICC. there for it is not our job to go get him. youve issued you ruling now let you enforce it.

No one has said the US should go get him.

What was asked is what would happen if he was walking around in DC and we knew it. If we really cared about human rights like we claim, we would arrest his ass.


Its called reading the article. I guess since DK isnt around, someone else needs to not read.
Gauntleted Fist
05-03-2009, 03:33
the US has not signed on to the ICC. there for it is not our job to go get him. youve issued you ruling now let you enforce it.Wonderful, you managed to completely ignore the question.
Neesika
05-03-2009, 03:44
Problem is, it cant just be the US. The West has been wagging its finger long enough at Sudan. Everyone needs to do something. Not just the US.

And it needs to be done well. Africa is already fucked up. We dont want to add another armed faction to the mix.

Overcoming the logistics issues and actually getting a force into Africa will be hard enough.

*sigh*

Darfur. This has been going on for so many years, and still, there is little being done.

Currently there is a joint African Union/United Nations hybrid peacekeeping missionn (UNAMID (http://unamid.unmissions.org/Default.aspx)) in Darfur, with a mandate (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unamid/mandate.html) to use force far beyond the traditional peacekeeping 'in self defence only' (Chapter 6 of the UN Charter) mandate. What this means is that UNAMID is authorised to use force to protect civilians in imminent danger, to protect humanitarian aid workers, and to 'protect its mandate' (very broad powers compared to previous kinds of peacekeeping missions).

However, we're still talking about a force (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unamid/facts.html) that is 'up to' about 20,000 military personnel, though actual figures of on ground troops are closer to 12,000. Please note that as usual, hardly any man power contributions have been made by the major developed countries. You may be interested to see this list (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/data/top10contributors.htm) of the top ten contributors to UN peacekeeping missions, by the way. We're talking manpower here. The developed nations don't mind throwing money in the direction of peacekeeping missions, but seem loathe to lend their military strength, for obvious reasons.

So when we talk about 'doing something', we often ignore what IS being done, and the kinds of inputs needed from the rest of the world to expand operations that might actually DO something. All this bullshit talk about storming in, guns blazing...well, is bullshit. How about some real fucking commitment? There IS a force in Darfur...and they need help.
Knights of Liberty
05-03-2009, 03:47
*sigh*

Darfur. This has been going on for so many years, and still, there is little being done.

Currently there is a joint African Union/United Nations hybrid peacekeeping missionn (UNAMID (http://unamid.unmissions.org/Default.aspx)) in Darfur, with a mandate (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unamid/mandate.html) to use force far beyond the traditional peacekeeping 'in self defence only' (Chapter 6 of the UN Charter) mandate. What this means is that UNAMID is authorised to use force to protect civilians in imminent danger, to protect humanitarian aid workers, and to 'protect its mandate' (very broad powers compared to previous kinds of peacekeeping missions).

However, we're still talking about a force (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unamid/facts.html) that is 'up to' about 20,000 military personnel, though actual figures of on ground troops are closer to 12,000. Please note that as usual, hardly any man power contributions have been made by the major developed countries. You may be interested to see this list (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/data/top10contributors.htm) of the top ten contributors to UN peacekeeping missions, by the way. We're talking manpower here. The developed nations don't mind throwing money in the direction of peacekeeping missions, but seem loathe to lend their military strength, for obvious reasons.

So when we talk about 'doing something', we often ignore what IS being done, and the kinds of inputs needed from the rest of the world to expand operations that might actually DO something. All this bullshit talk about storming in, guns blazing...well, is bullshit. How about some real fucking commitment? There IS a force in Darfur...and they need help.



Thats my biggest concern. Storming in guns blazing is what I dont want happening. I am terrified that we'll end up just adding another armed faction to the already volatile mix.
Gauntleted Fist
05-03-2009, 03:49
There IS a force in Darfur...and they need help.12,000 peacekeepers doesn't seem like anywhere near enough.

Edit: And their level of training also could be cause for concern.
Neesika
05-03-2009, 03:52
the US has not signed on to the ICC. there for it is not our job to go get him. youve issued you ruling now let you enforce it.Yes. Another wonderful thing Bush did for your country, 'unsigning' the Rome Statue. However, you'll also note that the US did not object to the UN resolution (http://www.undemocracy.com/S-RES-1593(2005).pdf) referring the atrocities in Darfur to the ICC.

In any case, US objections to the ICC are long, self-serving, and hopefully changing.
Neesika
05-03-2009, 03:54
12,000 peacekeepers doesn't seem like anywhere near enough.
Ya think?

UNAMID is supposed to be at full force with about 20,000 peacekeepers...pure military personnel, that's excluding support such as police, civilian and UN staff. Even then, it may not be enough. Right now, they're at half strength. Problematic, at best.
Knights of Liberty
05-03-2009, 03:54
In any case, US objections to the ICC are long, self-serving, and hopefully changing.

We'll see. Im not hopeful.
Gauntleted Fist
05-03-2009, 03:58
Ya think? No.

UNAMID is supposed to be at full force with about 20,000 peacekeepers...pure military personnel, that's excluding support such as police, civilian and UN staff. Even then, it may not be enough. Right now, they're at half strength. Problematic, at best. And the situation just seems to get worse as time goes on. The lack of action regarding Darfur is...troubling.
Neesika
05-03-2009, 04:00
I think its "shades" of black.

Not so simple.

The Janjaweed are arabic speaking, mostly muslim Africans who have been massacring and raping the Africans of different tribal backgrounds. The Janjaweed tend to be somewhat lighter skinned, but it's not about skin colour, it's about ethnic ties.
Non Aligned States
05-03-2009, 04:04
Thats my biggest concern. Storming in guns blazing is what I dont want happening. I am terrified that we'll end up just adding another armed faction to the already volatile mix.

The mix can't get any more volatile really. The factions already there are going at it tooth and nail and stacking up plenty of civilian corpses in their war. Neither side is going to come to an agreement to stop the bloodshed anytime soon.

You won't bring peace at all without getting your hands dirty, something you seem to want to avoid, but want peace all the same.

Do you have a better idea that's grounded in reality?
The Romulan Republic
05-03-2009, 04:04
I have been arguing for Canadian (my home country's) intervention for years. I first became aware of this topic in grade 8. I'm in university now, and it doesn't sound like much progress has been made. Contemptible.
Neesika
05-03-2009, 04:12
No.

And the situation just seems to get worse as time goes on. The lack of action regarding Darfur is...troubling.Meh. It's just black people, way over there.
DaWoad
05-03-2009, 04:27
I have been arguing for Canadian (my home country's) intervention for years. I first became aware of this topic in grade 8. I'm in university now, and it doesn't sound like much progress has been made. Contemptible.

Agreed (my home country too).We shoulda done something a while ago . . .yet still nothing.
DaWoad
05-03-2009, 04:28
Canada is a member of the ICC...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

I actually didn't know that. Thanks NM :)
greed and death
05-03-2009, 04:32
Yes. Another wonderful thing Bush did for your country, 'unsigning' the Rome Statue. However, you'll also note that the US did not object to the UN resolution (http://www.undemocracy.com/S-RES-1593(2005).pdf) referring the atrocities in Darfur to the ICC.

In any case, US objections to the ICC are long, self-serving, and hopefully changing.

are you saying a resolution of that strength is enough to make an invasion legal ???
Gauntleted Fist
05-03-2009, 04:33
Meh. It's just black people, way over there.I find it sad that I know some people would actually agree with that.
Neesika
05-03-2009, 04:41
are you saying a resolution of that strength is enough to make an invasion legal ???
Huh?

UNAMID is legal. The ICC's decision to prosecute crimes in Darfur is legal, whether the US ratifies the Rome Statute or not.
Learn something about international law before blathering please.
Blouman Empire
05-03-2009, 06:02
Well I suppose it is good that the ICC has decided that charges should be laid against Omar Hassan al-Bashir, I don't think it will do much, after all what are the chances of him turning himself in.

Suddenly, I am not as bothered by Obama mentioning his willingness to send the Marines into Africa.

But, but...Sudan has no oil. /selfish thoughts
Zombie PotatoHeads
05-03-2009, 06:17
I had never really thought about it before....but now thinking about it, physically, you have to really be into, like really be sick, to actually rape someone. I mean, you probably couldn't be forced to it, because you'd be so nervous and not turned on your penis wouldn't get erect.
Not necessarily. It can be brought on involuntarily, especially in situations creating extremes of emotions. The whole flight-or-fight scenario.

The same thing can happen with women - some, when faced with being raped, can become aroused. Not because they're 'into' the rape in any way but because their body's going overboard with the adrenalin etc due to the frightening situation they find themselves in, and some of that adrenalin is mistakenly sent to the wrong bits.
Knights of Liberty
05-03-2009, 19:31
I have yet to notice any resident Neocon (you know, the ones who talked about how it was our duty to invade Iraq because Saddam was violating human rights and freedoms) demand that we immediatly invade Sudan to stop an active genocide that was 100x worse then anything Saddam did.

I wonder if the lack of oil has anything to do with it?
Wanderjar
05-03-2009, 19:40
Suddenly, I am not as bothered by Obama mentioning his willingness to send the Marines into Africa.


As an Officer of Marines I can tell you whole heartedly that I am very eager for the go code.
Wanderjar
05-03-2009, 19:44
I'd like to add that this would be one of those operations that the Marines engage in that everyone, regardless of political affiliation, ideology, and belief, can be proud of. I would be honored to partake in this endevour because I know that by fighting and destroying those bastards who are causing the evils going on in that part of the world, we will make millions of lives better.
Mirkana
05-03-2009, 22:27
I'd love to see an international force sneak into Sudan and kidnap al-Bashir.

Wanderjar, if you get the honor of commanding this force, please record yourself reading al-Bashir his rights.
Call to power
05-03-2009, 22:40
I can't understand how this could happen etc etc

I'm cautious about foreign intervention though sure let the AU get stuck in but well...black hawk down and such

he told me he got no pay from the army, only food and drink.

God damn JPA!

As an Officer of Marines I can tell you whole heartedly that I am very eager for the go code.

haven't these people suffered enough!?!11
Blouman Empire
06-03-2009, 04:08
I have yet to notice any resident Neocon (you know, the ones who talked about how it was our duty to invade Iraq because Saddam was violating human rights and freedoms) demand that we immediatly invade Sudan to stop an active genocide that was 100x worse then anything Saddam did.

I wonder if the lack of oil has anything to do with it?

Beat you to it, KoL
Zombie PotatoHeads
06-03-2009, 04:54
But, but...Sudan has no oil. /selfish thoughts
Actually it does have quite a bit of oil, 4th largest in Africa. Current estimates has it at 5 Billion barrels:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Sudan/Oil.html

Nowhere the level of Iraq, but still significant. And that 5 Bill figure is very likely to be vastly underestimated as there's been very little exploration made there over the last decade or so, for obvious reasons.

The oil Sudan has is the reason why China's investing so heavily there. It's been propping up the Sudanese government, suppilying it with weapons and money for the last few years.
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/mar2008/gb20080314_430126.htm


If one was of a cynical mind, one might well reach the conclusion that the West is doing nothing to stop the bloodshed in the Sudan out of fear of harming West-China relations.
Blouman Empire
06-03-2009, 05:02
If one was of a cynical mind, one might well reach the conclusion that the West is doing nothing to stop the bloodshed in the Sudan out of fear of harming West-China relations.

Indeed, I would not be surprised by that either. But it is something that the West should be worried about after all China has been helping out quite a few African nations that have resources which will be of great benefit to China. Perhaps the West shoud be doing more in these nations and others to ensure that Africa stays on their side and helps them out when needed.

Oh and thanks for the info.
greed and death
06-03-2009, 05:08
Huh?

UNAMID is legal. The ICC's decision to prosecute crimes in Darfur is legal, whether the US ratifies the Rome Statute or not.
Learn something about international law before blathering please.

but those will all come to nothing unless you invade to get the guy.
So does that level of UN security council revolution make an invasion legal to get him out of the country and into ICC jurisdiction ?
because if not all this has done is make it to where the developed(who wants to move to a crappy one) countries who signed the Rome statute cant offer him asylum and very nice accommodations in exchange for getting out of the country.
The Parkus Empire
06-03-2009, 18:46
As an Officer of Marines I can tell you whole heartedly that I am very eager for the go code.

You would probably be morally justified, but have you thought about the amount on money that would have to spend? Remember, the United States is in critical condition as far as the debt and deficit are concerned.
The Parkus Empire
06-03-2009, 18:47
haven't these people suffered enough!?!11

They like what they do, which is why they do it.