NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090302.wcowent03/BNStory/specialComment/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20090302.wcowent03

Story discussed a couple of cases, but the one I found most interesting was of a pre-op transsexual (or, as is more commonly known, a man), being refused access to a women only gym and suing over it.

Any thoughts? I don't think he should have been allowed either.

The story below it is kind of interesting as well. The guy is required to let the pot-smoker smoke at his bar, but by having controlled substances there, he will lose his alcohol license.

*dresses up as a woman and claims to be a pre-op transsexual*

*dresses up as a woman and claims to be a pre-op transsexual*

* dresses normally, but shows passport claiming female gender *

* dresses normally, but shows passport claiming female gender *

Damn!

Fight it. If people just give payouts willy nilly to everyone who complains this f'ing country will turn into a haven for 'discrimination victims' who are universally too lazy to get a real job.

Story discussed a couple of cases, but the one I found most interesting was of a pre-op transsexual (or, as is more commonly known, a man), being refused access to a women only gym and suing over it.

Well - he isn't a woman, yet.
If he was denied entry AFTER the operation it becomes a different matter.

If he was denied entry AFTER the operation it becomes a different matter.

But then he wouldn't be denied anyway. ;)

If I was in the bathroom, and a man in a dress came in, I'd tase him.

If I was in the bathroom, and a man in a dress came in, I'd tase him.

And if the man in the dress accuses you of assault?

If I was in the bathroom, and a man in a dress came in, I'd tase him.

Why do things always have to get all tasey?

And if the man in the dress accuses you of assault?

Let's guess who the police will believe - a woman, or some guy in a dress...

Let's guess who the police will believe - a woman, or some guy in a dress...

In Saudi Arabia: the guy in the dress. :D

But then he wouldn't be denied anyway. ;)

Touché.

Why do things always have to get all tasey?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMkGOpAF4s&feature=related

It's the remix version.

If I was in the bathroom, and a man in a dress came in, I'd tase him.

Cocktaser

Let's guess who the police will believe - a woman, or some guy in a dress...

The problem here isn't the police it's the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Basicly the way it works according to them who ever is more of a sissy wins. Who is considered more of a sissy is an aggregate equation based on age, income, sex, religion, sexuality, political affiliation and annoingness. According to this scale a man in a dress definitely beats a woman since a woman in a dress in less of a sissy than a man in a dress.

The problem here isn't the police it's the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Basicly the way it works according to them who ever is more of a sissy wins. Who is considered more of a sissy is an aggregate equation based on age, income, sex, religion, sexuality, political affiliation and annoingness. According to this scale a man in a dress definitely beats a woman since a woman in a dress in less of a sissy than a man in a dress.

That's hilarious. I would imagine, though, that the US will soon be like that.

Does no one sue for specific action or an injunction these days?

Its a complicated issue only in the matter of the changing rooms. If its kind of a cubicle arrangement in which individuals get undressed/dressed seperately, then she should most certainly have been let in. If its an all-open changing room, there are maybe issues, although just because someone happens to be in possession of a penis doesn't mean they're going to act inappropriately in the changing rooms towards others, so I'd still say let her in.

Evidently this individual did not pass well as female. This would not change magically after the operation. So no doubt she would have been refused anyway.

Maybe they should run background checks to see if there are any lesbians at the gym getting turned on by being in the changing rooms, and also have an inspectiion of genitalia before entering to ensure there are no women with an enlarged clitoris that would allow them to potentially penetrate other women.

The idea that letting in transwomen will mean floods of men will turn up and pretend to be trans so they can watch is completely unfounded. The sort of ignorant idiots that would try that overlap quite well with the sort of people who would have a major problem with how "gay" crossdressing supposedly is. Plus, if anyone was acting inappropriately, they could then be thrown out, and would have no basis to sue, because there are witness. Which is much fairer than a presumption that they are automatically doing it to be pervy.

But it really pisses me off to see people here thinking that its acceptable to refer to pre-op transwomen living in role as "he". Have some fucking respect. Transitioning gender roles isn't something done lightly, you have absolutely no idea how much soul-searching and angst goes into making the difficult decision, and when someone fights so hard for their identity and to be themselves its really quite sickening to see some of the asinine comments here. You should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe consider going back to school and passing that "Empathy and Generally not Being a Complete Fucking Asshole 101" you evidently flunked.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe consider going back to school and passing that "Empathy and Generally not Being a Complete Fucking Asshole 101" you evidently flunked.

Hey, I flunked that one before I was born, because I'm an Asperger, so you go be ashamed of yourself for being so cruel to someone with a disability, who cannot be more empathic, no matter how hard he tries!

Eh I don't care. *shrugs* A guy in a dress can be in a changing room with me and I'd just ignore him like I ignore everyone else in public.

Apathy rules! :D

Its a complicated issue only in the matter of the changing rooms. If its kind of a cubicle arrangement in which individuals get undressed/dressed seperately, then she should most certainly have been let in. If its an all-open changing room, there are maybe issues, although just because someone happens to be in possession of a penis doesn't mean they're going to act inappropriately in the changing rooms towards others, so I'd still say let her in.

Evidently this individual did not pass well as female. This would not change magically after the operation. So no doubt she would have been refused anyway.

Maybe they should run background checks to see if there are any lesbians at the gym getting turned on by being in the changing rooms, and also have an inspectiion of genitalia before entering to ensure there are no women with an enlarged clitoris that would allow them to potentially penetrate other women.

The idea that letting in transwomen will mean floods of men will turn up and pretend to be trans so they can watch is completely unfounded. The sort of ignorant idiots that would try that overlap quite well with the sort of people who would have a major problem with how "gay" crossdressing supposedly is. Plus, if anyone was acting inappropriately, they could then be thrown out, and woukd have no basis for suing, because there are witness. Which is much fairer than a presumption that they are automatically doing it to be pervy.

But it really pisses me off to see people here thinking that its acceptable to refer to pre-op transwomen living in role as "he". Have some fucking respect. Transitioning gender roles isn't something done lightly, you have absolutely no idea how much soul-searching and angst goes into making the difficult decision, and when someone fights so hard for their identity and to be themselves its really quite sickening to see some of the asinine comments here. You should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe consider going back to school and passing that "Empathy and Generally not Being a Complete Fucking Asshole 101" you evidently flunked.

If you weren't Hiding in a small safety cupboard on planet Absurdia you would understand that a man in a dress is not the same thing as a woman. It doesn't matter what gender role one *wants* to play you either do or do not have a Y chromosome. No matter how much someone tries to fool themselves otherwise or how angry one gets when you remind them of the facts it doesn't change reality.

Besides it's not the idea of a trans-woman being let into a changing room that pisses me off. It's the fact that small businesses are being destroyed by frivolous suites with no merit at all because the Ontario Human Rights Commission thinks that mediated settlement is the solution to any problem no matter how absurd!

PS: I found this mouse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsgVspgy184) in my beer eh?

Hey, I flunked that one before I was born, because I'm an Asperger, so you go be ashamed of yourself for being so cruel to someone with a disability, who cannot be more empathic, no matter how hard he tries!

Wow. That was a mature response. Problem being, my best friend at school had Aspergers, so I actually know what I'm talking about here. And I know that people with Aspergers are capable of being compassionate and sympathetic and - once the situation and feelings are properly explained - empathetic. People with Aspergers aren't simply cold, completely unfeeling robots.

So, if you really have Aspergers, having been presented with a brief description of the feelings on the other side, you would respect from a decent person a reasoned and sensible response.

Instead, however, you respond with uncaring sarcasm. Which qualifies you as an asshole, Aspergers or not. And since you seem to be ignorant of the fact that with work, people with Aspergers can master basic empathy, even if the more advanced stages remain locked off, I strongly suspect you aren't. kthxbai

If you weren't Hiding in a small safety cupboard on planet Absurdia you would understand that a man in a dress is not the same thing as a woman. It doesn't matter what gender role one *wants* to play you either do or do not have a Y chromosome. No matter how much someone tries to fool themselves otherwise or how angry one gets when you remind them of the facts it doesn't change reality.

So what if they aren't female in genetic terms? If someone identifies strongly as that gender, why are you incapable of respecting that and allowing that they be treated as being of the gender they are transitioning to? What harm does it possibly do anyone else to respect it? Exactly. None.

Wow. That was a mature response. Problem being, my best friend at school had Aspergers, so I actually know what I'm talking about here. And I know that people with Aspergers are capable of being compassionate and sympathetic and - once the situation and feelings are properly explained - empathetic. People with Aspergers aren't simply cold, completely unfeeling robots.


Ah, an "all people with Aspergers..." type, combined with a "I have second hand knowledge so I know what I'm talking about" type. Now that explains a lot.

Ah, an "all people with Aspergers..." type, combined with a "I have second hand knowledge so I know what I'm talking about" type. Now that explains a lot.

No. Someone who bothered to do some research because my friend had Aspergers and dropped out of school because he found the social side of school too difficult, and I wanted to better understand him, as part of being a good friend, since I was basically the only one he had. Try again. You, not me made the "All people with Aspergers" claim in your first post, which I argued against.

But it really pisses me off to see people here thinking that its acceptable to refer to pre-op transwomen living in role as "he".

If you have a penis, you're male. If you have a vagina, you're female. This isn't one of the more complicated things to understand, no matter how many shades of gray some people wish to put into it. The business owner felt that the decision to let a man into the women only gym would be bad for business and its consumers. The women who frequent this gym specifically go out of their way to avoid working out around men. They should not be forced into working out around men if they don't want to.

So what if they aren't female in genetic terms? If someone identifies strongly as that gender, why are you incapable of respecting that and allowing that they be treated as being of the gender they are transitioning to? What harm does it possibly do anyone else to respect it? Exactly. None.

I may identify strongly with bat man. I may even want to be bat man. I can even dress up like bat man act like bat man and fight crime like bat man. ...if I fulfill all the requirements does that make me bat man?

If a person wants to pretend to be bat man or pretend to be a woman it makes shit all difference to me. I'll respect it up until they want me to acknowledge that they are in fact bat man. Or they start suing small business owners for not respecting their bat-manliness.

No. Someone who bothered to do some research because my friend had Aspergers and dropped out of school because he found the social side of school too difficult, and I wanted to better understand him, as part of being a good friend, since I was basically the only one he had. Try again. You, not me made the "All people with Aspergers" claim in your first post, which I argued against.

But it does all come down to the idea that I would "have to" fake empathy because you cannot deal with me being myself. That, dearest, is not my problem.
And yes, sure I can be as respectful as anyone, maybe even more so, but I will not humour someone who thinks talking about a biological male using the word "he" is disrespectful, any more than I will write god with a capital or refrain from eating pork because some people find it "unclean".

And now, time to hit the sack, so you can rant on however much you want, I don't empathize with that.

Hijack: Anyone else notice how Asperger's is one of several complaints it's become almost "cool" to claim you suffer from online? It's sort of like asexuality. And probably ranging from irritating to offensive for people who actually have it.

Anyway, I don't really care what gender people are, or claim to be, or whatever. For legal purposes, though, it should be determined by physical characteristics, not psychological choices. On the other hand, the pronoun by which such people are referred to should be the one of their choice, or a third, completely made-up one.

I will say, as a Business Owner myself, I would like to have the ability to deny services to whoever I want. Whether my reasons for denying services is stupid or not. However, as of right now I don't deny my services to anyone, mainly because that would be bad for business and I can't afford any bad press or negative word of mouth.

Still though, if a man is running an all woman's gym denies the Pre-Op tranny admittance into the gym, it's his right to do so. It's his business.

Eh I don't care. *shrugs* A guy in a dress can be in a changing room with me and I'd just ignore him like I ignore everyone else in public.

Apathy rules! :D

meh
*shrugs*

Hijack: Anyone else notice how Asperger's is one of several complaints it's become almost "cool" to claim you suffer from online? It's sort of like asexuality. And probably ranging from irritating to offensive for people who actually have it.

Eh I think people are starting to use Asperger's as an excuse to be an ass. I don't make excuses for me being an ass. :D

I will say, as a Business Owner myself, I would like to have the ability to deny services to whoever I want. Whether my reasons for denying services is stupid or not. However, as of right now I don't deny my services to anyone, mainly because that would be bad for business and I can't afford any bad press or negative word of mouth.

Still though, if a man is running an all woman's gym denies the Pre-Op tranny admittance into the gym, it's his right to do so. It's his business.

Fine. No problem if I deny blacks or gays into my business because they might make my customers uncomfortable?

I think we do have to be sensitive to what is the norm, and by that I mean that it is more likely that men will attempt to enter dress rooms of women, than a particular organisation will encounter a transsexual member wishing to do the same. In this regard, what needs to be considered is that for the overwhelming majority of the time, and the overwhelming majority of instances, this rule will ensure the comfort of women in their private changing rooms: the same privacy the transgender individual can enjoy post-op.

Hijack: Anyone else notice how Asperger's is one of several complaints it's become almost "cool" to claim you suffer from online? It's sort of like asexuality. And probably ranging from irritating to offensive for people who actually have it.

agreed. It's amazing how much of it is "self diagnosed" too. The thing about Asperger's is, most people who have it, don't recognize that there's anything WRONG with them. It's not "I'm antisocial", it's a near total inability to understand social dynamics. Those who have it can't see that there's anything wrong with them, because their own condition renders them incapable of understanding that there's something they don't get.

It's one of those "if you think you have it, you probably don't" conditions. And it's more than a little sickening how I've seen it being used as a crutch. I'd say 90% of those encountered who claim to have they syndrome, don't.

They're just misinthropic jackasses.

Fine. No problem if I deny blacks or gays into my business because they might make my customers uncomfortable?

Eh, if you and I were into the same industry and you start making stupid business decisions, then go for it. Less competition for me.

agreed. It's amazing how much of it is "self diagnosed" too. The thing about Asperger's is, most people who have it, don't recognize that there's anything WRONG with them. It's not "I'm antisocial", it's a near total inability to understand social dynamics. Those who have it can't see that there's anything wrong with them, because their own condition renders them incapable of understanding that there's something they don't get.

It's one of those "if you think you have it, you probably don't" conditions. And it's more than a little sickening how I've seen it being used as a crutch. I'd say 90% of those encountered who claim to have they syndrome, don't.

They're just misinthropic jackasses.

Neo and I actually agree on something. This is why I never claim and never will claim to have Aspergers. I am a Misanthropic ass, and I don't try to hide it nor do I make excuses for it.

But it does all come down to the idea that I would "have to" fake empathy because you cannot deal with me being myself. That, dearest, is not my problem.

So you've admitted you're an asshole who doesn't care in the slightest about people's feelings and enjoys causing offence. Splendid. Glad thats cleared up. Sorry your threadjack failed. Better luck next time, eh?

it is a pretty thorny issue. the pre-op isnt going to be comfortable changing in a men's locker room and many women are not going to be comfortable having a "man" in the changing room no matter what his future intentions.

i suggest that such facilities should have private rooms that can be accessed by those who have legitimate issues that make segregation the best answer.

and it is only polite to refer to people by their preferred gender pronouns. its no skin off your nose to call this person "she" if that is her preference.

Hijack: Anyone else notice how Asperger's is one of several complaints it's become almost "cool" to claim you suffer from online? It's sort of like asexuality. And probably ranging from irritating to offensive for people who actually have it.

Anyway, I don't really care what gender people are, or claim to be, or whatever. For legal purposes, though, it should be determined by physical characteristics, not psychological choices. On the other hand, the pronoun by which such people are referred to should be the one of their choice, or a third, completely made-up one.

To be perfectly honest I don't even fully agree with my own use of the personal pronoun he in this thread. It seem to be more respectful of their choice to use she if they want it ... all I'm saying is no matter what pronoun I choose to use it doesn't change the fact the she is in fact a he. And their choice to call themselves that doesn't give them the right to sue if others don't recognize their lifestyle choice as a reality modifying event which should shake the grounds of society.

oh i see that i have misunderstood the OP.

of course she should be let in and i still think that a private changing room is the best option.

agreed. It's amazing how much of it is "self diagnosed" too. The thing about Asperger's is, most people who have it, don't recognize that there's anything WRONG with them. It's not "I'm antisocial", it's a near total inability to understand social dynamics. Those who have it can't see that there's anything wrong with them, because their own condition renders them incapable of understanding that there's something they don't get.

It's one of those "if you think you have it, you probably don't" conditions. And it's more than a little sickening how I've seen it being used as a crutch. I'd say 90% of those encountered who claim to have they syndrome, don't.

They're just misinthropic jackasses.

Yeah. As a case in point, I'm often an antisocial misanthrope myself. But since I can recognize that there is proper social behavior and identify body language, and am extremely self-conscious, I can't make the excuse of having some disease. I'm just an antisocial misanthrope. (Although I'm trying to change that.... really....) In addition, posts by people who genuinely do have the condition and aren't being treated for it read very differently than those of normal people, to the point where it becomes obvious that they're not just trolling, or using it as an excuse for their behavior.

To be perfectly honest I don't even fully agree with my own use of the personal pronoun he in this thread. It seem to be more respectful of their choice to use she if they want it ... all I'm saying is no matter what pronoun I choose to use it doesn't change the fact the she is in fact a he. And their choice to call themselves that doesn't give them the right to sue if others don't recognize their lifestyle choice as a reality modifying event which should shake the grounds of society.
That's what I said. Legally, a preop MtF is male, and can be denied access to womens' only institutions, the way black people can be denied access to white-only institutions and gay people can be denied access to straight-only institutions (although these institutions rarely exist anymore as their double standards have long since become obsolete, while the male/female double standard still exists, necessitating such discrimination). Socially and in all other respects, whatever they want to claim -- male, female, or hamster.

oh i see that i have misunderstood the OP.

of course she should be let in and i still think that a private changing room is the best option.

And what if after the business owner allows the transsexual into the gym one of the regular female customers turns around and sues the gym owner for violating her gender rights by allowing this person into the gym?

A baseless hypothetical you may say but I'd bet you a two-four that the Ontario Human Rights Commission would push for a settlement no matter what. Because thats what they do...

Hell in a hand basket, thats where we're headed. A hell woven with the threads of litigation by the hand of basket case bureaucrats carying our sensibilities and reason down the river of upper canadian insanity to the niagra falls of our doom!

Anyway, I don't really care what gender people are, or claim to be, or whatever. For legal purposes, though, it should be determined by physical characteristics, not psychological choices.

What if they have both male and female physical characteristics? What if the parents made a choice on gender at birth due to ambiguous genitalia and it turned out to be wrong?

Gender and sex are not as black and white as people would like to think.

Personally, I don't think things like "women-only" gyms should even exist. Then we wouldn't have this problem.

Very few of you understand that there is a difference between a trans-woman defining herself as female and a psycho who defines him or herself as an animal.

Yeah. As a case in point, I'm often an antisocial misanthrope myself. But since I can recognize that there is proper social behavior and identify body language, and am extremely self-conscious, I can't make the excuse of having some disease. I'm just an antisocial misanthrope. (Although I'm trying to change that.... really....) In addition, posts by people who genuinely do have the condition and aren't being treated for it read very differently than those of normal people, to the point where it becomes obvious that they're not just trolling, or using it as an excuse for their behavior.

Ok, I'd like to put an end to another misconception. Anti-Social isn't what you think it is. I go by the DSM-IV definition of Anti-Social Personality Disorder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)

Serial killers and hit men are the most common examples of ASPD.

People who are like you and me, most likely have Schizoid Personality Disorder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder)

I personally think they should have 3 types of bathrooms, changing rooms, etc... "Male", "Female", and "Both or None". I have a girlfriend who is a hermaphrodite how would you accommodate her? She defines herself as female but has male and female parts and she is XXY.

I mean if you would accommodate women like me by forcing us to go into bathrooms, changing rooms, etc... with men, where we will likely be sexually and physically assaulted, I wonder how you would treat Hermaphrodites.

I personally think they should have 3 types of bathrooms, changing rooms, etc... "Male", "Female", and "Both or None". I have a girlfriend who is a hermaphrodite how would you accommodate her? She defines herself as female but has male and female parts and she is XXY.

Trisomy 24 cool

Ok, I'd like to put an end to another misconception. Anti-Social isn't what you think it is. I go by the DSM-IV definition of Anti-Social Personality Disorder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)

Serial killers and hit men are the most common examples of ASPD.

People who are like you and me, most likely have Schizoid Personality Disorder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder)

No I'd say it's more likely that you have Hypochondria. It's either that or AIDS.

Seriously though, I fail to understand why people on the internet feel the need to diagnose themselves with various Mental Illnesses. Sadly your probably perfectly normal with no justifiable excuse for your various antisocial behaviors at all.

If I was in the bathroom, and a man in a dress came in, I'd tase him.

Don't taze the Bro!

I would suppose that's what it's called, I guess she preferred the other term.

ooh tazers, fun, I suggest they (the "GG"s) save it for the men who would want them to be stay at home women.

What if they have both male and female physical characteristics? What if the parents made a choice on gender at birth due to ambiguous genitalia and it turned out to be wrong?

Then they get legally recognized as "unholy abominations".

Or, y'know, something else that is neither male nor female. Big deal.

Ok, I'd like to put an end to another misconception. Anti-Social isn't what you think it is. I go by the DSM-IV definition of Anti-Social Personality Disorder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)

Serial killers and hit men are the most common examples of ASPD.

People who are like you and me, most likely have Schizoid Personality Disorder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder)
I reject these foreign ideas of "personality disorders". My personality is just fine as it is. Psychiatrists who are going to tell me I'm schizoid or somethin' are probably just out to sell the latest medication, which I can function just fine without. (And I seriously doubt you have a degree in psychiatry or are otherwise qualified to use the DSM IV.)

When I use "antisocial" I mean a more extreme form of "introverted". It refers to those who actively shun society, or strongly dislike/fear certain social situations. You can call it what you like.

If you have a penis, you're male. If you have a vagina, you're female. This isn't one of the more complicated things to understand, no matter how many shades of gray some people wish to put into it.

IIRC if one has a penis and wishes to get the operation to turn it into a vagina (or the other way around) on is REQUIRED to spend a certain amount of time living as the gender one wants to become including dressing the part in public and using the restrooms appropriate for the gender. I'm honestly shocked by the amount of Transphobia I'm seeing in this thread, NSG is usually more tolerant of differing sexualities than most places.

And what if after the business owner allows the transsexual into the gym one of the regular female customers turns around and sues the gym owner for violating her gender rights by allowing this person into the gym?

A baseless hypothetical you may say but I'd bet you a two-four that the Ontario Human Rights Commission would push for a settlement no matter what. Because thats what they do...

Hell in a hand basket, thats where we're headed. A hell woven with the threads of litigation by the hand of basket case bureaucrats carying our sensibilities and reason down the river of upper canadian insanity to the niagra falls of our doom!
it does all depend on the law in ontario. i cant comment on that.

all i know is that a pre-op transexual does not violate the reason why a woman would go to a woman only gym.

I am diagnosed with 25 medical conditions and only 2 of them are probably actual medical conditions that I have.

I may identify strongly with bat man. I may even want to be bat man. I can even dress up like bat man act like bat man and fight crime like bat man. ...if I fulfill all the requirements does that make me bat man?

If you fulfill all the requirements I fail to see how it WOULDN'T make you Batman. Good luck with the multi-billion dollar corporation and inventing the time machine so you can go back and get your parents killed by muggers.

If you fulfill all the requirements I fail to see how it WOULDN'T make you Batman. Good luck with the multi-billion dollar corporation and inventing the time machine so you can go back and get your parents killed by muggers.

Thanks. I've been saving up for the multi-billion dollar corporation but it hasn't been going so well. As for the time machine well I have a box with time machine written on it - it doesn't appear to be going back in time yet but I will have let you known when it has.

And what if after the business owner allows the transsexual into the gym one of the regular female customers turns around and sues the gym owner for violating her gender rights by allowing this person into the gym?


Then the gym does what they SHOULD have done, and pulls out the gender reassignment data they CHECKED on the pre-op before they refused 'him' out of hand.

Sure, some guys might be dicks, and want an oppoortunity to go all voyeur in the girly gym - but how many of them would be willing to undergo years of counselling, and hormone therapy, etc?

...all I'm saying is no matter what pronoun I choose to use it doesn't change the fact the she is in fact a he.


It doesn't make that a 'fact', either.

Gender isn't as simple as what your lunchbox looks like.


And their choice to call themselves that doesn't give them the right to sue if others don't recognize their lifestyle choice


Are you a man? Do you call yourself a man?

What justifies that 'lifestyle choice' for you?


...as a reality modifying event which should shake the grounds of society.

Sure it does. Society needs modifying.

IIRC if one has a penis and wishes to get the operation to turn it into a vagina (or the other way around) on is REQUIRED to spend a certain amount of time living as the gender one wants to become including dressing the part in public and using the restrooms appropriate for the gender. I'm honestly shocked by the amount of Transphobia I'm seeing in this thread, NSG is usually more tolerant of differing sexualities than most places.

Yes. Its strange how transgender people are somehow considered amusing and fair game for mockery by normally tolerant people. As soon as transpeople are mentioned, many otherwise model liberals suddenly shift into a very passable impersonation of Fred Phelps' hatespeak. I'm wondering if for some people uttering these words allows a temporary demonic possession.

Then the gym does what they SHOULD have done, and pulls out the gender reassignment data they CHECKED on the pre-op before they refused 'him' out of hand.

Sure, some guys might be dicks, and want an oppoortunity to go all voyeur in the girly gym - but how many of them would be willing to undergo years of counselling, and hormone therapy, etc?

Your being reasonable. Reason doesn't work with the Ontario Human Rights Commission. All that matters is your aggregate sissy factor and even then they'll push for a settlement because settlements make everybody happy.

Seriously guys/girls/others I don't mean to trash on trannies I just hate the Ontario Human Rights Commission.

it is a pretty thorny issue. the pre-op isnt going to be comfortable changing in a men's locker room and many women are not going to be comfortable having a "man" in the changing room no matter what his future intentions.

i suggest that such facilities should have private rooms that can be accessed by those who have legitimate issues that make segregation the best answer.

and it is only polite to refer to people by their preferred gender pronouns. its no skin off your nose to call this person "she" if that is her preference.

The really silly thing about it is - statistically, every time one of us is in the gym, swimming-pool, etc... (one of these 'sensitive' - apparently - venues)... someone there (at LEAST one 'someone') is both fitted with the same tools as us, AND the right orientation to be checking us out.

The idea that someone has to be a 'bloke in a dress' to be the eyes in the changing room is, frankly, ridiculous.

I mean if you would accommodate women like me by forcing us to go into bathrooms, changing rooms, etc... with men, where we will likely be sexually and physically assaulted, I wonder how you would treat Hermaphrodites.

huh?

Meanwhile, I've gone into bathrooms with men. Never got assaulted. Go figure. Not all men are evil rapists!

Yes. Its strange how transgender people are somehow considered amusing and fair game for mockery by normally tolerant people. As soon as transpeople are mentioned, many otherwise model liberals suddenly shift into a very passable impersonation of Fred Phelps' hatespeak. I'm wondering if for some people uttering these words allows a temporary demonic possession.

Well everything and everyone that is different will always have ignorant people attacking it/her/him/hir.

Your being reasonable. Reason doesn't work with the Ontario Human Rights Commission. All that matters is your aggregate sissy factor and even then they'll push for a settlement because settlements make everybody happy.


You keep saying that. This 'sissy factor' seems to be an abstract of your own invention, though. I can't seem to find it listed anywhere.


Seriously guys/girls/others I don't mean to trash on trannies


Just as a note: where I'm from, 'trannies' are transvestites, not transgenders - which is a totally different prospect. If you really don't want to trash on anyone, you might want to think your words out a little.


I just hate the Ontario Human Rights Commission.

Fair enough. Support them. Push through every single thing they throw out.

Then, when everyone is equal, and there's no work left to do - they'll be unnecessary, and they'll fade away.

The really silly thing about it is - statistically, every time one of us is in the gym, swimming-pool, etc... (one of these 'sensitive' - apparently - venues)... someone there (at LEAST one 'someone') is both fitted with the same tools as us, AND the right orientation to be checking us out.

The idea that someone has to be a 'bloke in a dress' to be the eyes in the changing room is, frankly, ridiculous.

Nuh uh. Lesbians/bisexual women totally don't exist.

huh?

Meanwhile, I've gone into bathrooms with men. Never got assaulted. Go figure. Not all men are evil rapists!

Well when you have an adam's apple and your in a power wheelchair and can't fight back and you don't "pass" as male or female and you live in a shifty neighborhood come and talk to me.

Nuh uh. Lesbians/bisexual women totally don't exist.

I'll tell you who doesn't exist, you don't exist.

Are you a man?


yes


Do you call yourself a man?


yes


What justifies that 'lifestyle choice' for you?


I'm a man.

Are you going somewhere with this?


Sure it does. Society needs modifying.


Does it need to be modified in the direction of destroying the lives of small business owners by allowing anyone with a complaint to tie up the issue potentially indefinitely in litigation with the use of publicly funded resources during an economic depression?

Yes. Its strange how transgender people are somehow considered amusing and fair game for mockery by normally tolerant people. As soon as transpeople are mentioned, many otherwise model liberals suddenly shift into a very passable impersonation of Fred Phelps' hatespeak. I'm wondering if for some people uttering these words allows a temporary demonic possession.

It's because men wearing women's clothing -- even if they are psychologically or hormonally female -- are inherently funny. No amount of discrimination and unfortunate implications will change this fact. It's like watching someone get kicked in the nuts.

Notice how nobody seems to be making a fuss about what would happen if a pre-op FtM transsexual tried to gain admittance to a men's only gym.

huh?

Meanwhile, I've gone into bathrooms with men. Never got assaulted. Go figure. Not all men are evil rapists!

Lies. Those men were obviously evil rapists who were merely too cowardly to physically assault you at that particular moment. Or maybe they were thinking about sports, or beer, or one of the two or three other things men think about that don't involve sex.

Does it need to be modified in the direction of destroying the lives of small business owners by allowing anyone with a complaint to tie up the issue potentially indefinitely in litigation with the use of publicly funded resources during an economic depression?

I'll tell you what resources we are using, however they are going to the corrupt corporations not queer people, it's my tax payer dollars, not just yours.

Nuh uh. Lesbians/bisexual women totally don't exist.

Don't tell that to the porn industry. It'll sink 'em.

Things shouldn't be segregated by sex in the first place. It's silly and Victorian.

Notice how nobody seems to be making a fuss about what would happen if a pre-op FtM transsexual tried to gain admittance to a men's only gym.

Hmm, I wonder why, maybe cause all most men like are sticking their contaminated prods in any vagina.

Well when you have an adam's apple and your in a power wheelchair and can't fight back and you don't "pass" as male or female and you live in a shifty neighborhood come and talk to me.

I didn't say assholes don't exist. I was just pointing out that, when silly enforced gender roles break down, people don't suddenly start getting raped left and right.

I'll tell you who doesn't exist, you don't exist.

Is that a fact?


Lies. Those men were obviously evil rapists who were merely too cowardly to physically assault you at that particular moment. Or maybe they were thinking about sports, or beer, or one of the two or three other things men think about that don't involve sex.

To be fair, most of those men were more interested in the other men than they were in me, at least in a sexual sense.

So maybe they were actually thinking about my friend's ass, and that's why they didn't bother me?

Things shouldn't be segregated by sex in the first place. It's silly and Victorian.

Well the whole damn world is silly and victorian. "genetic" Women do this. "genetic" Men do that. No ifs, ands or buts.

I didn't say assholes don't exist. I was just pointing out that, when silly enforced gender roles break down, people don't suddenly start getting raped left and right.

I have experienced great pain just to be who I am. I had to drop out of high school because the harassment I experienced was just too much, and the staff not intervening made it worse. I have a GED and a Minor in Creative Writing now, but no one should be forced to drop out of equally granted public education.

I'll tell you what resources we are using, however they are going to the corrupt corporations not queer people, it's my tax payer dollars, not just yours.

What?

To be fair, most of those men were more interested in the other men than they were in me, at least in a sexual sense.

So maybe they were actually thinking about my friend's ass, and that's why they didn't bother me?

Exactly!

I'm not sure why they didn't go and evilly rape one another in that case, but you can never tell with those wacky homosexuals.

I'm a man.


That's not 'justifying your lifestyle choice' - that's just repeating the question.

That's like me asking you WHY rain falls downwards, and you are answering 'because it falls downwards'.

So, justify it.

Why is your 'lifestyle choice' of calling yourself a man, justified?


Does it need to be modified in the direction of destroying the lives of small business owners by allowing anyone with a complaint to tie up the issue potentially indefinitely in litigation with the use of publicly funded resources during an economic depression?

Yes.


The idea that business trumps human rights hasn't been very popular since Emancipation.

Is that a fact?


Hush. No questions, non-existant person.

I have experienced great pain just to be who I am. I had to drop out of high school because the harassment I experienced was just too much, and the staff not intervening made it worse. I have a GED and a Minor in Creative Writing now, but no one should be forced to drop out of equally granted public education.

I agree.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the conversation at hand, but I agree. People who harass others are assholes.

What?

The reason why the economy is shit is because of corrupt multi-nation corporations whom the governments are bailing out even though it is better to let them fall, not human rights laws.

The idea that business trumps human rights hasn't been very popular since Emancipation.

Re-read the op. The complainant gets all their legal expenses payed! The small business owner does not.

I'm not just talking about the resources of using the court system.

I'm talking about the particularly ridiculous situation in Canada where you have a situation which favors the complainant, any complainant right or wrong, combined with a ridiculously tedious litigation process which pushes so hard for settlement that few could afford to fight any complaint.

I agree.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the conversation at hand, but I agree. People who harass others are assholes.

I am saying that I was harassed because of gender for as long as I can remember. I was labeled a "sissy" and was thus apparently worthy of harassment. Ever since I can remember, I was feminine and it was not something that I could control. I was attacked because of that. That is what it has to do with the conversation I suppose. It makes me angry that people can say such ignorant things and have no empathy for others.

Re-read the op. The complainant gets all their legal expenses payed! The small business owner does not.
I'm not just talking about the resources of using the court system.
I'm talking about the particularly ridiculous situation in Canada where you have a situation which favors the complainant, any complainant right or wrong, combined with a ridiculously tedious litigation process which pushes so hard for settlement that few could afford to fight any complaint.

I do not believe that any male should own an all womens gym, so I mean this guy is being a hypocrite in a way and deserves for his small business to collapse.

Re-read the op. The complainant gets all their legal expenses payed! The small business owner does not.


And?

If Blacks had had all their expenses paid, in attempting to overturn slavery, while the slavers had NOT had all their expenses paid...

...so fucking what?

If it's right, then it should be done - no matter the cost.


I'm not just talking about the resources of using the court system.

I'm talking about the particularly ridiculous situation in Canada where you have a situation which favors the complainant, any complainant right or wrong, combined with a ridiculously tedious litigation process which pushes so hard for settlement that few could afford to fight any complaint.

Doesn't seem all that ridiculous to me. It looks like any worthy case has a certain amount of pressure to be pushed through successfully... which is a good thing, isn't it?

Doesn't seem all that ridiculous to me. It looks like any worthy case has a certain amount of pressure to be pushed through successfully... which is a good thing, isn't it?

I would agree with that, the main effect it causes is less trivial lawsuits. And actual valid lawsuits occur. Also, since maybe less than 200 trans lawsuits have been filed when there are hundreds of thousands of crimes committed yearly against them. I see what's wrong here, too many criminals get away with horrid crimes.

I do not believe that any male should own an all womens gym, so I mean this guy is being a hypocrite in a way and deserves for his small business to collapse.

Now there's an enlightened attitude. Personally as a Canadian and as an ardent supporter of the free enterprise system (as opposed to the alternative) I support everyones efforts to earn an honest living.

This tread has gotten way off topic. What I want to talk about is the HRC not debate various stereotypical attitudes about why men are bad.

Things shouldn't be segregated by sex in the first place. It's silly and Victorian.

Eh, from what I've heard, the reason women have "Women only" establishment is to feel safer, more comfortable and they don't want to get hit on by over-sexed guys.

Eh, from what I've heard, the reason women have "Women only" establishment is to feel safer, more comfortable and they don't want to get hit on by over-sexed guys.

This is correct. This is also partly why there are no "men only" establishments -- because organizations allowing both sexes to exercise (remember, usually wearing very little) make men feel safer and more comfortable, and they don't want to get hit on by over-sexed guys.

Basically, if you're a guy, nobody trusts you. :p

Now there's an enlightened attitude. Personally as a Canadian and as an ardent supporter of the free enterprise system (as opposed to the alternative) I support everyones efforts to earn an honest living.


...even at the expense of basic human rights, apparently.

Now there's an enlightened attitude. Personally as a Canadian and as an ardent supporter of the free enterprise system (as opposed to the alternative) I support everyones efforts to earn an honest living.

This tread has gotten way off topic. What I want to talk about is the HRC not debate various stereotypical attitudes about why men are bad.

That is simply not what I am saying, him not allowing a trans-woman while he is a man running a womens gym is sort of hypocritical.

And?

If Blacks had had all their expenses paid, in attempting to overturn slavery, while the slavers had NOT had all their expenses paid...

...so fucking what?

If it's right, then it should be done - no matter the cost.



Doesn't seem all that ridiculous to me. It looks like any worthy case has a certain amount of pressure to be pushed through successfully... which is a good thing, isn't it?

We're not talking about the US here we're talking about Canada which abolished slavery a good 30+ years earlier. Did you even read the op?

I don't like doing this but I'll post some snippets - just to get things back on topic.

"A medical-marijuana smoker liked to lurk around the doorway, self-medicating. When Mr. Kindos asked the toker to take off, the toker took him to the human-rights commission for discriminating against someone with a disability. Mr. Kindos was told that he could settle if he forked over $2,000 to his tormentor, and posted a prominent sign saying that Gator Ted's accommodates customers with medical disabilities.

There's just one catch. If Mr. Kindos agrees, he stands to lose his liquor licence for allowing a controlled substance to be consumed where alcohol is used. His lawyer thinks the courts should sort out this dilemma before Mr. Kindos gets nailed. Mr. Kindos's loyal customers are outraged on his behalf. But the human-rights commission doesn't agree. It has a full-blown tribunal hearing scheduled for this summer."

&

"mother who insists on her right to breast-feed anywhere she wants - in this case, not just at a swimming pool, but in the pool. When the woman who owns the pool objected (for fear of accidental baby poop), the mother declared: "It was my human right. She violated my human right to breast-feed and I knew that.""

&

"B.C. woman who failed to get a job after a manager complained that she had a hacking cough and "reeked of smoke." She also had a record of a lot of sick days. She argues she was discriminated against because of her disability - an addiction to cigarettes."

Eh, from what I've heard, the reason women have "Women only" establishment is to feel safer, more comfortable and they don't want to get hit on by over-sexed guys.

I feel safer in womens only establishments so that I can avoid being hit on by over-sexed guys. Just cause I have a penis that does not mean I want to go into a womens only establishment to have sex. I am a woman and I am not some guy trying to get to hit on women.

about the B.C. woman and Mr. Kindos: I think it's only really correct to consider something a "disability" if it actually, you know, disables you. As in, you're crippled, or you've lost the functionality of one or more of your senses, or somethin'. Vague definitions like that are nobody's friend.

Now there's an enlightened attitude. Personally as a Canadian and as an ardent supporter of the free enterprise system (as opposed to the alternative) I support everyones efforts to earn an honest living.

This tread has gotten way off topic. What I want to talk about is the HRC not debate various stereotypical attitudes about why men are bad.

Wait, after all you've said here...you are seriously calling someone else on this thread unenlightened? This has GOT to be parody.

We're not talking about the US here we're talking about Canada which abolished slavery a good 30+ years earlier. Did you even read the op?

I don't like doing this but I'll post some snippets - just to get things back on topic.

"A medical-marijuana smoker liked to lurk around the doorway, self-medicating. When Mr. Kindos asked the toker to take off, the toker took him to the human-rights commission for discriminating against someone with a disability. Mr. Kindos was told that he could settle if he forked over $2,000 to his tormentor, and posted a prominent sign saying that Gator Ted's accommodates customers with medical disabilities.

There's just one catch. If Mr. Kindos agrees, he stands to lose his liquor licence for allowing a controlled substance to be consumed where alcohol is used. His lawyer thinks the courts should sort out this dilemma before Mr. Kindos gets nailed. Mr. Kindos's loyal customers are outraged on his behalf. But the human-rights commission doesn't agree. It has a full-blown tribunal hearing scheduled for this summer."

&

"mother who insists on her right to breast-feed anywhere she wants - in this case, not just at a swimming pool, but in the pool. When the woman who owns the pool objected (for fear of accidental baby poop), the mother declared: "It was my human right. She violated my human right to breast-feed and I knew that.""

&

"B.C. woman who failed to get a job after a manager complained that she had a hacking cough and "reeked of smoke." She also had a record of a lot of sick days. She argues she was discriminated against because of her disability - an addiction to cigarettes."

However you are referring to the rights of transsexual women to live their lives as the women who they are as trivial. Those other cases are entirely different.

I have a neuromuscular condition which I am dying from. I have been able to start hormones, however I will never be able to have sex reassignment surgery. So in my last years of my life should I have to suffer anymore by being forced to use male facilities and experience sexual and physical assault? Is it so trivial and insane that I want to be treated as the woman that I am?

We're not talking about the US here we're talking about Canada which abolished slavery a good 30+ years earlier. Did you even read the op?


I am mentioning slavery (actually, without specifying a country), as a universal concern. Blacks were held to lower standards of human rights, because it was economically preferable for those holding the slaves.

We should never find ourselves in that situation again.

As for the 'op' question - I've been interested in dealing with one subject that's arisen.


"A medical-marijuana smoker liked to lurk around the doorway, self-medicating. When Mr. Kindos asked the toker to take off, the toker took him to the human-rights commission for discriminating against someone with a disability. Mr. Kindos was told that he could settle if he forked over $2,000 to his tormentor, and posted a prominent sign saying that Gator Ted's accommodates customers with medical disabilities.


Seems fair. Discriminated against because of a disability. Doesn't appear to have made any attempt to reach an accomodation.


There's just one catch. If Mr. Kindos agrees, he stands to lose his liquor licence for allowing a controlled substance to be consumed where alcohol is used. His lawyer thinks the courts should sort out this dilemma before Mr. Kindos gets nailed. Mr. Kindos's loyal customers are outraged on his behalf. But the human-rights commission doesn't agree. It has a full-blown tribunal hearing scheduled for this summer."


Good. We'll see if he gets revoked, and then he can petition for redress - which has the advantage of putting something worthwhile on the books.


"mother who insists on her right to breast-feed anywhere she wants - in this case, not just at a swimming pool, but in the pool. When the woman who owns the pool objected (for fear of accidental baby poop), the mother declared: "It was my human right. She violated my human right to breast-feed and I knew that.""


Again, simple accomodation - you can get diapers that won't leak, specially for swimming. Was that suggested?


"B.C. woman who failed to get a job after a manager complained that she had a hacking cough and "reeked of smoke." She also had a record of a lot of sick days. She argues she was discriminated against because of her disability - an addiction to cigarettes."

If she failed to get the job BECAUSE she smoked, fair enough.

The really silly thing about it is - statistically, every time one of us is in the gym, swimming-pool, etc... (one of these 'sensitive' - apparently - venues)... someone there (at LEAST one 'someone') is both fitted with the same tools as us, AND the right orientation to be checking us out.

The idea that someone has to be a 'bloke in a dress' to be the eyes in the changing room is, frankly, ridiculous.
yes it is. and if the existence of transsexuals bothers you, it should be your problem not theirs.

That is simply not what I am saying, him not allowing a trans-woman while he is a man running a womens gym is sort of hypocritical.

It's hypocritical because he's barring someone else from entering, based on a perceived gender that he'll allow others in (namely, himself) with.

However you are referring to the rights of transsexual women to live their lives as the women who they are as trivial. Those other cases are entirely different.

No I'm not. I'm saying that transsexuals are not women. The fact that they want to be doesn't make it so.

I'm also saying that not admitting a man in a dress to a womens only gym should not be a violation of human rights because as a man he has no such right to go to a womans only gym.

If you think gyms should not be segregated by gender thats irrelevant.

If you think men are evil it's also irrelevant.

If you think corporations are evil and therefore always wrong your a commie and thats also irrelevant.

Let me tell you something else, I have never had consensual sex and I am incapable of doing that since I have aids and herpes. Because of sick men who thought they should be allowed to do whatever they want to me because I am trans. I was diagnosed with aids when I was 12 and herpes when I was 14. Also, many of these people were cops, security, teachers. Constantly and because I was weak. To hurt a physically disabled girl like that a person must have no conscience. I reported all of the over 10 incidents and the reports were ignored because cops did not choose to do their jobs.

No I'm not. I'm saying that transsexuals are not women. The fact that they want to be doesn't make it so.

I'm also saying that not admitting a man in a dress to a womens only gym should not be a violation of human rights because as a man he has no such right to go to a womans only gym.

If you think gyms should not be segregated by gender thats irrelevant.

If you think men are evil it's also irrelevant.

If you think corporations are evil and therefore always wrong your a commie and thats also irrelevant.

First off you are very ignorant by implying that transsexuality is a choice. I only think that some men are evil not all, and I know that being in womens facilities is ten times safer for me because of my disability not just because of my gender identity. Women are a lot more comfortable with me using the same facilities then men, so it also benefits the men. Also if women apparently have this problem then there should be a restroom that intersex people can use to keep everyone happy. I only think corrupt corporations who take government money are corrupt. Also gyms can be segregated by gender but not by who has a penis and who has a vagina, thats irrelevant. You have also proven to me that you are a hypocrite with no compassion for anyone but yourself.

I have a neuromuscular condition which I am dying from. I have been able to start hormones, however I will never be able to have sex reassignment surgery. So in my last years of my life should I have to suffer anymore by being forced to use male facilities and experience sexual and physical assault? Is it so trivial and insane that I want to be treated as the woman that I am?

First off let me say I'm really sorry your dying. And no it's not insane that you want to be treated as a woman. Although I disagree with the notion that wanting to be treated like a woman makes you one. I don't particularly care which restroom you use. I don't mind calling you a girl and referring to you as she, her - but that doesn't mean I believe it. Whatever gender you are you are your a human being deserving of respect - it doesn't really matter what I think.

No I'm not. I'm saying that transsexuals are not women. The fact that they want to be doesn't make it so.

So people's genetics are so important that you can justly ignore their identities and refuse to recognise them as what they have fought to be recognized their entire lives? That entire live of struggle is less important to you and deserves no recognition. We are people, not just genetic code

I'm also saying that not admitting a man in a dress to a womens only gym should not be a violation of human rights because as a man he has no such right to go to a womans only gym.

But SHE is a person, deserving of compassion and humanity, who identifies as female and desires recognition as such, not simply a walking XY combination of chromosones. What threat will she pose if allowed in? Wouldn't it be the decent thing to do to let her in, rather than sitting around with your genetics textbook with your fingers in your years refusing to acknowledge any other dimensions to the issue?

I'm sorry, but your repeated assertions you have no problem with transgender people just don't ring true when you continually keep referring to transwomen as "he" and nothing but a "man in a dress", and that they are thus exempt from having rights on the flimsy grounds that because they have the parts, thats what they should be called and how they should be treated.

No I'm not. I'm saying that transsexuals are not women.


Which is your opinion, and has all the value attached to that.


The fact that they want to be doesn't make it so.


I notice you opted out of actually justifying your 'lifestyle choice'.

The fact that you want to be a 'man', doesn't make it so.


I'm also saying that not admitting a man in a dress to a womens only gym should not be a violation of human rights...

Which is fine, but irrelevent - because we're not talking about transvestites.

First off let me say I'm really sorry your dying. And no it's not insane that you want to be treated as a woman. Although I disagree with the notion that wanting to be treated like a woman makes you one. I don't particularly care which restroom you use. I don't mind calling you a girl and referring to you as she, her - but that doesn't mean I believe it. Whatever gender you are you are your a human being deserving of respect - it doesn't really matter what I think.

I bolded the (one) part of this post that was accurate.

First off let me say I'm really sorry your dying. And no it's not insane that you want to be treated as a woman. Although I disagree with the notion that wanting to be treated like a woman makes you one. I don't particularly care which restroom you use. I don't mind calling you a girl and referring to you as she, her - but that doesn't mean I believe it. Whatever gender you are you are your a human being deserving of respect - it doesn't really matter what I think.

I am female in my heart, mind and soul. I want to be treated as a woman because I am a woman. It's not something that I just think, It is a genetic condition. It is not a choice, so there is no believing or disbelieving, god made me this way. You can define me as a transvestite or cross-dresser or even a drag queen but it doesn't mean its true.

What threat will she pose if allowed in? Wouldn't it be the decent thing to do to let her in, rather than sitting around with your genetics textbook with your fingers in your years refusing to acknowledge any other dimensions to the issue?

A valid argument which should perhaps be brought up in Parliament. But considering that there is no law which says that pre-op transsexuals have the right to be treated as women under the law do you thing that small business owners should be the ones left holding the bag for Parliaments inaction?

I bolded the (one) part of this post that was accurate.

Hey, his opinions are probably accurate as well, in that they are are most likely what he actually believes. And opinions aren't ever objectively wrong or inaccurate.

Unless they disagree with mine of course.

I bolded the (one) part of this post that was accurate.

Well your right, that appears to be the only accurate thing FreeSatania has said thus far.

A valid argument which should perhaps be brought up in Parliament. But considering that there is no law which says that pre-op transsexuals have the right to be treated as women under the law do you thing that small business owners should be the ones left holding the bag for Parliaments inaction?

You are incorrect in that aspect, it does protect against discrimination on basis of gender and gender identity.

Hey, his opinions are probably accurate as well, in that they are are most likely what he actually believes. And opinions aren't ever objectively wrong or inaccurate.
Unless they disagree with mine of course.

His opinions are what he believes but they are not true in the medical or scientific senses.

His opinions are what he believes but they are not true in the medical or scientific senses.

If those are the criteria for accuracy, there's very little anyone posts around here that's actually accurate. This is a debate forum, after all, so most people use it to express their opinions.

A valid argument which should perhaps be brought up in Parliament. But considering that there is no law which says that pre-op transsexuals have the right to be treated as women under the law do you thing that small business owners should be the ones left holding the bag for Parliaments inaction?

The law doesn't create morality. Even if the law doesn't say so, they should still not discriminate. Businesses are made up of people and there's no get out clause for them to refuse to do what is right and decent just because they are a business. But hopefully this legal case will highlight the problems with the law, if thats what it is (most places in Western countries have some protections against discrimination for transpeople), and lead to pressure for change. Good thing these Human Rights Commission things exist, eh? I accept on some issues there are some excesses with silly claims, but this is the sort of thing the commission really should be doing.

If those are the criteria for accuracy, there's very little anyone posts around here that's actually accurate. This is a debate forum, after all, so most people use it to express their opinions.
Well opinions should not defame and discredit others and marginalize people who are different.

You are incorrect in that aspect, it does protect against discrimination on basis of gender and gender identity.

Hmmm, I don't know about that. Gender yes. Gender identity I don't think so. Although I'd be interested to know for sure.

This is from the charter of rights and freedoms section 15:
Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

I really thing the supreme court should be ruling on these things and not the HRC. The HRC is too often abused and their judgments are very often questionable and inconsistently applied. Even if you disagree with me having the HRC rule on this does nothing to further your cause because one can always call into question the judgments of the HRC's since they are so often questionable.

Well opinions should not defame and discredit others and marginalize people who are different.

Opinions do, whether or not they should.

The only recourse is to mock all who hold such opinions, and make them ashamed to express them when others are listening. *nods*

Opinions do, whether or not they should.
The only recourse is to mock all who hold such opinions, and make them ashamed to express them when others are listening. *nods*

Opinions should be stated in a respectful way. Fundamentalist, indifferent stereotypes are never necessary.

Well people I'm off to shower and then to bed. SEE, I'm sorry If I have offended you personally. As you may have noticed I am not the most tactful creature god ever created. I bear no ill will to you or your kind - although you have your opinion and I have mine.

Everyone here realizes that the XY genes are not the sole indicator of sex right? To a point enzyme activity related t hormone production and cellular transfer of male/female hormones also have a significant effect on the sex of a person. Thus Genetics are not the end all/be all of sexual differentiation even in the medical field.

I'll tell you who doesn't exist, you don't exist.

No, no, I don't exist.

Uh-oh . . . Wait, wait I didn't mean that!

<poof>

Any thoughts? I don't think he should have been allowed either.

Segregation and primitive attitudes.

Let's guess who the police will believe - a woman, or some guy in a dress...

What is wrong with a man wearing a dress? women frequently wear trousers.

To answer your question: it all depends upon how attractive the woman is and where the police officer's preferences lie.

Well - he isn't a woman, yet.
If he was denied entry AFTER the operation it becomes a different matter.

And if she is unfortunate enough to be born with the wrong genitals and unable to afford surgery, it's too bad, so sad? That's inhumane.

*snip*

/\ What she said. /\

Everyone here realizes that the XY genes are not the sole indicator of sex right? To a point enzyme activity related t hormone production and cellular transfer of male/female hormones also have a significant effect on the sex of a person. Thus Genetics are not the end all/be all of sexual differentiation even in the medical field.

Indeed. It is entirely possible, for instance, to have someone with XY chromosomes who develops entirely or almost entirely as female. The condition is known as CAIS (Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome). Basically, her body does not respond to testosterone, so despite the Y chromosome, she does not develop male characteristics.

*There is also PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome)

Indeed. It is entirely possible, for instance, to have someone with XY chromosomes who develops entirely or almost entirely as female. The condition is known as CAIS (Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome). Basically, her body does not respond to testosterone, so despite the Y chromosome, she does not develop male characteristics.
^
this

Indeed. It is entirely possible, for instance, to have someone with XY chromosomes who develops entirely or almost entirely as female. The condition is known as CAIS (Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome). Basically, her body does not respond to testosterone, so despite the Y chromosome, she does not develop male characteristics.

*There is also PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome)

And Klinefelter's (XXY), and gonadal dysgenesis, where genitalia are neither distinctly male nor distinctly female, and primary and secondary sex characteristics may differ.

Hey, I flunked that one before I was born, because I'm an Asperger, so you go be ashamed of yourself for being so cruel to someone with a disability, who cannot be more empathic, no matter how hard he tries!

indeed!!!

And if she is unfortunate enough to be born with the wrong genitals and unable to afford surgery, it's too bad, so sad? That's inhumane.

In civilised countries a gender change should be paid for by health insurance (and in fact is in e.g. mine).
In noncivilised countries changing your gender should not be a priority - survival is a bigger issue.

I may identify strongly with bat man. I may even want to be bat man. I can even dress up like bat man act like bat man and fight crime like bat man. ...if I fulfill all the requirements does that make me bat man?

Yes?

So you've admitted you're an asshole who doesn't care in the slightest about people's feelings and enjoys causing offence. Splendid. Glad thats cleared up. Sorry your threadjack failed. Better luck next time, eh?

No, again you are being the insensitive, or maybe I should call it "righteous", one. Apparently you know exactly who deserves "pity", and who deserves scorn, entirely based on your concept of reality. That doesn't make you any "better" than me, but the difference is that I admit that I'm an insensitive bastard, because I can't be anything else, failing the correct wiring. You, however, have no excuse for using derogatory terms for me, and, in an earlier post, a lot of others on this forum, without knowing anything about them, other than your assumption that, since they do not meet your standard of righteousness, must be untermenschen, and need to be scoffed because of that.

IIRC if one has a penis and wishes to get the operation to turn it into a vagina (or the other way around) on is REQUIRED to spend a certain amount of time living as the gender one wants to become including dressing the part in public and using the restrooms appropriate for the gender. I'm honestly shocked by the amount of Transphobia I'm seeing in this thread, NSG is usually more tolerant of differing sexualities than most places.

This!!! Wow, I'm kinda afraid to read the rest of this long ass thread. The only thing I can come up with is, that people just don't know. Maybe they don't care to know, or think this is too much of a joke to know.

I think the gym owner would have done himself ten favors by taking the opportunity to get to understand the woman he was dealing with. If he took time to read up or simply speak with her openly and respectfully, I doubt he'd find himself with a lawsuit.

As a woman who has had memberships to all-female gyms, and would consider it again in the future, I don't see how having a pre-op trans girl would make an uncomfortable atmosphere...unless she was an ass, but any asshole personality can make a locker room uncomfortable.

Hijack: Anyone else notice how Asperger's is one of several complaints it's become almost "cool" to claim you suffer from online? It's sort of like asexuality. And probably ranging from irritating to offensive for people who actually have it.

Anyway, I don't really care what gender people are, or claim to be, or whatever. For legal purposes, though, it should be determined by physical characteristics, not psychological choices. On the other hand, the pronoun by which such people are referred to should be the one of their choice, or a third, completely made-up one.

I know. It's gotten to the point that I feel the same way about having ADD that I used to feel about having Jordache Jeans.

I may identify strongly with bat man. I may even want to be bat man. I can even dress up like bat man act like bat man and fight crime like bat man. ...if I fulfill all the requirements does that make me bat man?

If a person wants to pretend to be bat man or pretend to be a woman it makes shit all difference to me. I'll respect it up until they want me to acknowledge that they are in fact bat man. Or they start suing small business owners for not respecting their bat-manliness.

If you legally change your name to Batman, that's what we've got to call you. Even if we think it's silly.

No, again you are being the insensitive, or maybe I should call it "righteous", one. Apparently you know exactly who deserves "pity", and who deserves scorn, entirely based on your concept of reality. That doesn't make you any "better" than me, but the difference is that I admit that I'm an insensitive bastard, because I can't be anything else, failing the correct wiring. You, however, have no excuse for using derogatory terms for me, and, in an earlier post, a lot of others on this forum, without knowing anything about them, other than your assumption that, since they do not meet your standard of righteousness, must be untermenschen, and need to be scoffed because of that.

Except you stated earlier that you are capable of 'faking' empathy, but choose not to do so. So you've admitted in your case it isn't a case of incapability, but that you'd rather offend people rather than make an effort to be nice to them and take account of what you believe they might be feeling. Your attempts to make me look like the bad person here really aren't working, I'm afraid.

Careful, tying yourself up in so many knots risks that one of them might become a noose. Oh wait, yes it has. I'm sorry, the doctors did as much as they could, but your argument is dead. But I'm sure you'll try to continue this threadjack, and I eagerly await your next ill-judged flail.

Gosh, there are too many things in this thread that I'd love to respond to. Late to the party again :( .

If I was in the bathroom, and a man in a dress came in, I'd tase him.

Assuming you're female, I'll remember that if I ever catch you wearing pants in a bathroom.

IIRC if one has a penis and wishes to get the operation to turn it into a vagina (or the other way around) on is REQUIRED to spend a certain amount of time living as the gender one wants to become including dressing the part in public and using the restrooms appropriate for the gender.

This is true. Getting tased by East Tofu isn't a requirement, though, but there is a real risk of it happening even after the operation. Obviously one should have ones bladder removed and replaced by a stoma before beginning the so called real life test.

Hey, I flunked that one before I was born, because I'm an Asperger, so you go be ashamed of yourself for being so cruel to someone with a disability, who cannot be more empathic, no matter how hard he tries!

I understand you're trying to be funny, but I'd like you to know that to me, who has something very similar to Aspergers, this is offensive. All the people with Aspergers that I know are very capable of empathy, and so am I, and I resent the stereotype. Aspergers and other autism-like disorders are not the same thing as psychopathy (first definition) (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/psychopathy?qsrc=2888). If you find that you are truly incapable of empathy, you might want to get a second opinion on your diagnosis (assuming you have one). Or maybe not, cause unlike poor sad clumsy aspergers (another stereotype btw), psychopaths don't give anyone warm fuzzy forgiving feelings.

*reads rest of thread* oh geez you're not joking. Well, in that case, you do know that if you are capable of thinking someone elses words are insulting, you can use the same test on your own words too, right? It may be difficult in RL, but on a forum you can sit and think for a few moments before hitting the submit button. Or you can decide you don't care when others are offended, but that removes your right to complain when others offend you.

Hijack: Anyone else notice how Asperger's is one of several complaints it's become almost "cool" to claim you suffer from online? It's sort of like asexuality. And probably ranging from irritating to offensive for people who actually have it.

Indeed.

[/pet peeve]

Oh, and I agree with everything Dumb Ideologies has said in this thread. Which is of course no surprise.

lol Canada.

I was taching Martial Arts in England, and one of the ugliest females in the world attended my course. It was clarly a pre-op transexual ( why? Because of the beardstubbles). The girls accepted it in their dressing room, and as it came from another town they had only slight acquaintances.

P.S. Being a bisexual I have in principle nothing against

I was taching Martial Arts in England, and one of the ugliest females in the world attended my course. It was clarly a pre-op transexual ( why? Because of the beardstubbles). The girls accepted it in their dressing room, and as it came from another town they had only slight acquaintances.

P.S. Being a bisexual I have in principle nothing against
you would do better to use SHE when referring to this person.

if you cant bring yourself to use female terms then you should use HE.

to refer to a human being as IT is to deny her humanity.

you would do better to use SHE when referring to this person.

if you cant bring yourself to use female terms then you should use HE.

to refer to a human being as IT is to deny her humanity.

People always refer to me as "it" or "thing"... it's probably the bolts in my neck.

People always refer to me as "it" or "thing"... it's probably the bolts in my neck.
you should growl at them when they do that. they will stop out of abject fear.

lol Canada.

um . . .i hate to ask but . . .wha?

you should growl at them when they do that. they will stop out of abject fear.

Also, make random and insistent arguments vis a vis the nature of fire.

I was taching Martial Arts in England, and one of the ugliest females in the world attended my course. It was clarly a pre-op transexual ( why? Because of the beardstubbles). The girls accepted it in their dressing room, and as it came from another town they had only slight acquaintances.

P.S. Being a bisexual I have in principle nothing against

(a) You mean "she", I presume?

(b) While there's certainly nothing wrong if she was a pre-op transsexual, there are hormonal issues which can cause women born with vaginas to grow facial hair, so if that's all you've got to go on, you're making a hasty assumption.

If you legally change your name to Batman, that's what we've got to call you. Even if we think it's silly.

I get what you're saying, but this doesn't really support the argument, since she HASN'T gone through the process of legally changing her gender.

A valid argument which should perhaps be brought up in Parliament. But considering that there is no law which says that pre-op transsexuals have the right to be treated as women under the law do you thing that small business owners should be the ones left holding the bag for Parliaments inaction?

You know, if you're going to use a specific case to discuss human rights law, you should get the actual news article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090226.wtranssexual26/BNStory/National/home) instead of an editorial:

Here is the bit that discusses how human rights law in Ontario works with respect to transsexuals:

The Ontario Human Rights Code forbids discrimination or harassment based on sex, which includes issues of gender identity.

The code does not distinguish between transsexuals who are at different stages of transition, said Afroze Edwards, a spokeswoman for the Ontario Human Rights Commission.

"I think the important thing to remember there is how they identify themselves; what their sense is, that they are living as a man or living as a woman," Ms. Edwards said. "Regardless of whether they're preop or postop, it's their lived gender that's important."

Look. There is a law that says they have to be treated as women.

EDIT: http://www.womensnet.org.za/news/gym-owner-hit-with-rights-complaint-over-gender

The previous link does not show the whole article, so I added a second link with all the text.

This!!! Wow, I'm kinda afraid to read the rest of this long ass thread. The only thing I can come up with is, that people just don't know. Maybe they don't care to know, or think this is too much of a joke to know.

I think the gym owner would have done himself ten favors by taking the opportunity to get to understand the woman he was dealing with. If he took time to read up or simply speak with her openly and respectfully, I doubt he'd find himself with a lawsuit.

As a woman who has had memberships to all-female gyms, and would consider it again in the future, I don't see how having a pre-op trans girl would make an uncomfortable atmosphere...unless she was an ass, but any asshole personality can make a locker room uncomfortable.

I'm speculating here, but when they go into a women's only locker room and the other women notice they have a penis I suspect there would be a reaction.

I'm speculating here, but when they go into a women's only locker room and the other women notice they have a penis I suspect there would be a reaction.

I know a pre-op mtf and she just dresses privately. Her penis isn't something she feels the need to flash around.

I know a pre-op mtf and she just dresses privately. Her penis isn't something she feels the need to flash around.

Thanks for clarifying for the other poster. (I thought this would have been obvious tbh.)

ETA: Sometimes even I will dress privately, a bathroom stall will do if I am uncomfortable with the number of or behavior of others in the locker room.

I know a pre-op mtf and she just dresses privately. Her penis isn't something she feels the need to flash around.

Even in a gym without separate changing rooms, I know I don't exactly look around to see what kind of junk the other women have in their panties. I can only guess that others are the same way.

Unless she was flashing it around on purpose, my guess would be that nobody would notice.

Even in a gym without separate changing rooms, I know I don't exactly look around to see what kind of junk the other women have in their panties. I can only guess that others are the same way.

Unless she was flashing it around on purpose, my guess would be that nobody would notice.

To tie back to the specific case in the OP, there is a precedent for this in Ontario human rights law. From the same article I posted earlier:

It's not the first time an Ontario gym owner has been taken to the tribunal by a preoperative transsexual; in 2005, Michaela Reid was turned away at the Exclusively Women's Fitness Centre in Guelph, but won an undisclosed settlement at a similar mediation session.

....

In Michaela Reid's case, a settlement allowed her to return to the gym that had initially turned her away.

In an interview yesterday, Ms. Reid said she didn't have "a single issue" with anyone else, despite her male genitals, for two key reasons: The gym had private shower stalls, and before she left them, she would always wrap herself in a towel and keep it on while putting on her underwear.

"I agree there has to be some respect for the other ladies," Ms. Reid said. "I think they could work it out quite simply."

Even in a gym without separate changing rooms, I know I don't exactly look around to see what kind of junk the other women have in their panties. I can only guess that others are the same way.

Unless she was flashing it around on purpose, my guess would be that nobody would notice.

I dress privately at the gym anyway, because I'm fat. It's not like the only person who would ever do that was a transgendered person.

I know other women who dress privately because they're too modest, or they're wrinkly or....anyway many reasons.

To tie back to the specific case in the OP, there is a precedent for this in Ontario human rights law. From the same article I posted earlier:

dude thats my home town how in the hell did I not hear bout this???

...I admit that I'm an insensitive bastard, because I can't be anything else, failing the correct wiring.

That's bullshit. Sorry.

Even in a gym without separate changing rooms, I know I don't exactly look around to see what kind of junk the other women have in their panties.

See, girls and boys are different.

Dudes in changing rooms always check out each other's junk.

Let's guess who the police will believe - a woman, or some guy in a dress...

what if that guy in the dress is the pope?

I was taching Martial Arts in England, and one of the ugliest females in the world attended my course. It was clarly a pre-op transexual ( why? Because of the beardstubbles). The girls accepted it in their dressing room, and as it came from another town they had only slight acquaintances.

P.S. Being a bisexual I have in principle nothing against

Wow, if a woman is ugly she must be a pre-op transsexual? Thanks for the bullshit. I haven't even started hormones and I am not ugly. And some "genetic" women have facial hair, so that is just ignorant of you. Btw, being Bisexual doesn't mean anything. Gender Identity and Sexuality are two different things and the GLB people are leaving behind the T people when transpeople break their backs for gay rights.

I'm speculating here, but when they go into a women's only locker room and the other women notice they have a penis I suspect there would be a reaction.

Oh, wow, I didn't know that I exposed my penis to other women. And even if another woman saw my penis, she might react but most likely not have a problem unless of course she was a religious fanatic who didn't understand shit about me.

See, girls and boys are different.

Dudes in changing rooms always check out each other's junk.

Yea, thats interesting, guys are very strange I see.

Yea, thats interesting, guys are very strange I see.

Grave n Idle can speak for himself, thank you.

Grave n Idle can speak for himself, thank you.

Oh, wow, interesting location you have listed.

Oh, wow, interesting location you have listed.

I picked that up at some point. If you wish to see to what I'm referring, look at a map of the US, turn it sideways so that the east coast is at the top, squint a little, and look at Florida.

Grave n Idle can speak for himself, thank you.

Because you've never seen another guy's junk in the changing room? Never noticed the guy at the next john eyeing your material?

Just because you won't admit it, doesn't make it untrue.

I picked that up at some point. If you wish to see to what I'm referring, look at a map of the US, turn it sideways so that the east coast is at the top, squint a little, and look at Florida.

I know what you mean, but thats still strange.

Because you've never seen another guy's junk in the changing room? Never noticed the guy at the next john eyeing your material?

Just because you won't admit it, doesn't make it untrue.

I have determined that I will not be staring at other men's genitals, as I am not interested in having anything to do with them.

However, if they wish to suffer an inferiority complex from looking at mine, that's their business entirely.

However, if they wish to suffer an inferiority complex from looking at mine, that's their business entirely.

Wow, that is perhaps the best line I have ever heard.

Wow, that is perhaps the best line I have ever heard.

Stick around a while. I'm batting about 10% being good lines.

I have determined that I will not be staring at other men's genitals, as I am not interested in having anything to do with them.

However, if they wish to suffer an inferiority complex from looking at mine, that's their business entirely.

You've 'determined' that? So - a conscious decision.

You said 'staring' - which I didn't. I don't even need to expand on that.

You say you wont be staring because you're not interested in having anything to do with them - so, you apparently can't even look without it leading to sexual contact?

And then you talk about how, if you look at it right, you can pretend a country has a penis.

Yeah, you're not in classic denial or anything.

You've 'determined' that? So - a conscious decision.

You said 'staring' - which I didn't. I don't even need to expand on that.

You say you wont be staring because you're not interested in having anything to do with them - so, you apparently can't even look without it leading to sexual contact?

And then you talk about how, if you look at it right, you can pretend a country has a penis.

Yeah, you're not in classic denial or anything.

I admit it. Your avatar turns me on. I'm so sorry!!!!!!

I admit it. Your avatar turns me on. I'm so sorry!!!!!!

You shouldn't be sorry. It is a damn pretty avatar.

You shouldn't be sorry. It is a damn pretty avatar.

Wow, now thats love. Lol.

Wow, now thats love. Lol.

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

*whacks Gallo's face with a shovel*

*whacks Gallo's face with a shovel*

Dude, he specifically said not to do that.

That's just cold.

Dude, he specifically said not to do that.

That's just cold.

Don't worry; my face looked like this before, too.

Dude, he specifically said not to do that.

That's just cold.

That song should never be invoked, not even in jest. *nods*

Don't worry; my face looked like this before, too.

It was all shiny a few years ago though!

That song should never be invoked, not even in jest. *nods*

But it causes the breakage of car windows...

Don't worry; my face looked like this before, too.

Well... it starts with a shovel to the face... and it quickly turns into tasing. You know how it goes.

Well... it starts with a shovel to the face... and it quickly turns into tasing. You know how it goes.

Is that what happened to your avatar?

Is that what happened to your avatar?

How quick your mood changes! Earlier you thought it was hot. :p

Is that what happened to your avatar?

Think you get eyes that red just from watching sad movies?

How quick your mood changes! Earlier you thought it was hot. :p

That's not mood - that's fickle libido. :D

In that case, I'd suggest create a virus, kill billions. (http://www.kongregate.com/games/DarkRealmStudios/pandemic-2) Soo much better than a fickle libido and rage is satisfied. :p

How quick your mood changes! Earlier you thought it was hot. :p

I never said a shovel-face and being tased was unattractive. Really, that's how I met my first wife.

That's just repulsive. You hate your own body so you go out and mutilate yourself.

That's just repulsive. You hate your own body so you go out and mutilate yourself.

Mutilate me punching your face in jerk.

That's just repulsive. You hate your own body so you go out and mutilate yourself.

Thought exercise for you.

Imagine that I have technology beyond your reckoning, and that, after you sleep tonight, I manage to abduct you, perform bizarre science on you, and replace you in your room before you wake.

Imagine further, that - come morning - you find yourself in a body of my design. My particular amusement, in your case, was to cover your body in ears. You are now equipped with thirty of these little babies, in various places of my choosing.

Here's the exercise part - what would you do?

Thought exercise for you.

Imagine that I have technology beyond your reckoning, and that, after you sleep tonight, I manage to abduct you, perform bizarre science on you, and replace you in your room before you wake.

Imagine further, that - come morning - you find yourself in a body of my design. My particular amusement, in your case, was to cover your body in ears. You are now equipped with thirty of these little babies, in various places of my choosing.

Here's the exercise part - what would you do?

Stop and listen to the sounds of nature.

Stop and listen to the sounds of nature.

Listen to the sound of music.

Listen to the sound of music.

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more...

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more...

Oh yes yes, you gonna hurt.

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more...

You're a glutton for punishment aren't you?

Oh yes yes, you gonna hurt.

You're a glutton for punishment aren't you?

Only if you're a large red haired woman dressed in leather that barely contains what she has for me and holding a whip.

Thought exercise for you.

Imagine that I have technology beyond your reckoning, and that, after you sleep tonight, I manage to abduct you, perform bizarre science on you, and replace you in your room before you wake.

Imagine further, that - come morning - you find yourself in a body of my design. My particular amusement, in your case, was to cover your body in ears. You are now equipped with thirty of these little babies, in various places of my choosing.

Here's the exercise part - what would you do?

Listen to the sound of silence.

Only if you're a large red haired woman dressed in leather that barely contains what she has for me and holding a whip.

I'm not... but I can arrange for someone who is :p

Oh, wow, I didn't know that I exposed my penis to other women. And even if another woman saw my penis, she might react but most likely not have a problem unless of course she was a religious fanatic who didn't understand shit about me.

Like I said all speculation. But I just doubt than in a women only gym's changing room a penis would just be ignored.

I dress privately at the gym anyway, because I'm fat. It's not like the only person who would ever do that was a transgendered person.

I know other women who dress privately because they're too modest, or they're wrinkly or....anyway many reasons.

Eh, must be the types of gyms I suppose. Most changing rooms I remember don't really have anywhere you could change out of sight would be a toilet cubicle (and changing in the toilets sort of defeats the object of the changing room, might as well just do it in the public ones).

I'm not... but I can arrange for someone who is :p

Someone roundabout my age and at least a 6 on a scale of 10?

Someone roundabout my age and at least a 6 on a scale of 10?

Yes, and yes.

Like I said all speculation. But I just doubt than in a women only gym's changing room a penis would just be ignored.

Yes, however a woman wouldn't beat me near to death. She might freak a bit, but I am the modest type, I would apologize if she saw. Likely explain my condition to her, a reasonable person would understand.

Hijack: Anyone else notice how Asperger's is one of several complaints it's become almost "cool" to claim you suffer from online? It's sort of like asexuality. And probably ranging from irritating to offensive for people who actually have it.

I believe it is this phenomenon that has led to the internet distinction between "Aperger's" and "Assburgers".

I think you can extrapolate.

No, again you are being the insensitive, or maybe I should call it "righteous", one. Apparently you know exactly who deserves "pity", and who deserves scorn, entirely based on your concept of reality. That doesn't make you any "better" than me, but the difference is that I admit that I'm an insensitive bastard, because I can't be anything else, failing the correct wiring. You, however, have no excuse for using derogatory terms for me, and, in an earlier post, a lot of others on this forum, without knowing anything about them, other than your assumption that, since they do not meet your standard of righteousness, must be untermenschen, and need to be scoffed because of that.

Must be convenient to be able to hide behind a (likely self-diagnosed) condition to excuse you from any modicum of responsibility or common decency. Or is it?

I suggest you take a listen to your fellows. It is interesting that their claim and yours--if indeed you have Asperger's at all. Something that has been cried wolf far too often on the internet and especially so in this exact context, to the point where I'm not convinced--are so vastly different.

Yes, however a woman wouldn't beat me near to death. She might freak a bit, but I am the modest type, I would apologize if she saw. Likely explain my condition to her, a reasonable person would understand.

I'd expect more than a few complaints and at least a couple of membership cancellations.

Call it a lack of faith in the public, but I struggle to see it not being made an issue.

I'd expect more than a few complaints and at least a couple of membership cancellations.

Call it a lack of faith in the public, but I struggle to see it not being made an issue.

Then those people are not reasonable. Also, I wouldn't do things that would cause that. I don't disturb other people and I certainly don't flaunt things. Most people wouldn't see or even notice unless they were looking for such people. And most people aren't that paranoid. However, I do not see why you wish to take away a right that is given to every other woman.