NationStates Jolt Archive

Split off from this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14571414#post14571414)

From the above thread, there seems to be strong agreement that the US education system has failed. Ther may be strong disagreement as to the degree of failure and the reasons, but I'd like to PLEASE TRY AND LEAVE THOSE ASIDE, and try to dig a bit deeper into the real fundament...

In today's world, what is an "education"? What should one know in order to be a functioning member of society?

IMHO an Education should include the basics skills necessary to function in our society, and a strong encouragement to think for one's self.

Anything beyond that is either job training, personal edification, or propaganda.

One should be able to read and communicate in the local language. This means being able to read and comprehend signs. One should also be able to write at a minimum level, and that their written word should be understandable by anyone who reads it. They don't need to use big words or complicated syntax; simple words and sentences is what is needed.

Being able to do basic math; add, subtract, multiply and divide in order to maintain one's finances. That way when one shops, they can see and understand the value of what they are buying and be able to tell if they are paying the right price. It's always good to understand basic numbers to avoid issues over how much you're paying.

One should be able to read and communicate in the local language. This means being able to read and comprehend signs. One should also be able to write at a minimum level, and that their written word should be understandable by anyone who reads it. They don't need to use big words or complicated syntax; simple words and sentences is what is needed.

Being able to do basic math; add, subtract, multiply and divide in order to maintain one's finances. That way when one shops, they can see and understand the value of what they are buying and be able to tell if they are paying the right price. It's always good to understand basic numbers to avoid issues over how much you're paying.

What about children and parents who don't value an education? Can you force them to learn against their will, any subject you choose?

What about children and parents who don't value an education? Can you force them to learn against their will, any subject you choose?

by SCOTUS ruling up until 8th grade we can.

by SCOTUS ruling up until 8th grade we can.

There are other ways to circumvent compulsory education.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090304/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_france_homework

Stop doing your own homework, for one.

Skills for society, first. After that comes morality and the knowledge of the finer aspects of life, in order to facilitate enjoyment and mental well-being. Art, music, film, poetry, novels, and the like can teach us things we can not learn any other way--they bring about a better understanding between persons and transmit ideas.

One should be able to read and communicate in the local language. This means being able to read and comprehend signs. One should also be able to write at a minimum level, and that their written word should be understandable by anyone who reads it. They don't need to use big words or complicated syntax; simple words and sentences is what is needed.

Being able to do basic math; add, subtract, multiply and divide in order to maintain one's finances. That way when one shops, they can see and understand the value of what they are buying and be able to tell if they are paying the right price. It's always good to understand basic numbers to avoid issues over how much you're paying.

This but they should also be able to do basic monetary things. Like taking the present worth of future payments, future worth of annual income, etc. Take for example leases, or house payments, how can someone understand the real costs if they can't do what I mentioned.

If you ever start thinking you've got it figured out, you need some more ejumacating.

Chasing after moving goalposts. Nobody knows what skills and knowledge are going to be in demand in five years time. So what a good education is is anyones guess. That said we can say certain things like basic literacy, numeracy etc will always be part of it.


I really must create a puppet for when I am posting pissed.

Formal education (In a developed nation) is a set of skills and knowledge that equips a person to A. Be able to read, write, and perform basic math to a certain level so that person can function in society. B. Be able to process information in order to develop new skills as well as evaluate said information for relevance and understanding. And C. To gain a working knowledge of the culture/community/government to which that person belongs and participates in (I.e. to make a citizen).

Formal education (In a developed nation) is a set of skills and knowledge that equips a person to A. Be able to read, write, and perform basic math to a certain level so that person can function in society. B. Be able to process information in order to develop new skills as well as evaluate said information for relevance and understanding. And C. To gain a working knowledge of the culture/community/government to which that person belongs and participates in (I.e. to make a citizen).
Unsurprisingly, I agree.
There are other ways to circumvent compulsory education.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090304/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_france_homework

Stop doing your own homework, for one.
Either you a) don't do any work and fail and stay back (US education mandates that you either 1) pass 8th grade or 2) turn 21) or b) get caught plagarizing/cheating and still fail. Yes, your teachers will catch on sooner or later. Like when you fail every test despite having a perfect score on every homework

If you ever start thinking you've got it figured out, you need some more ejumacating.

Right away cheecha

I don't know but, "we don't need no . . ."

I don't know but, "we don't need no . . ."

You know, it took me untill I was 20 to realize what they actually meant by "You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat"

"we don't need no . . ."
"Yes you do, that's a double negative."

I don't know but, "we don't need no . . ."

"Water let the _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ burn baby burn let the _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ burn!"

that was it right? And how dare you incite arson!

You know, it took me untill I was 20 to realize what they actually meant by "You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat"

I'm not 20 yet and what does that really mean????

Education is whatever makes you an elitest.

You know, it took me untill I was 20 to realize what they actually meant by "You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat"
Meat? I thought it was about beets. My entire world has just been turned upside down, jiggled slightly from left to right, then stuffed into a drawer filled with old socks.

What about children and parents who don't value an education? Can you force them to learn against their will, any subject you choose?

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

This but they should also be able to do basic monetary things. Like taking the present worth of future payments, future worth of annual income, etc. Take for example leases, or house payments, how can someone understand the real costs if they can't do what I mentioned.

That I should have mentioned. Very good point.

I'm not 20 yet and what does that really mean????

It means that you have to take the core subjects you may not in order to get to the part you want and enjoy.

"Water let the _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ burn baby burn let the _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ burn!"

that was it right? And how dare you incite arson!
Not even close to the right song...

I'm not 20 yet and what does that really mean????

Ask your parents.

IMHO an Education should include the basics skills necessary to function in our society...

Such as?

. Art, music, film, poetry, novels, and the like can teach us things we can not learn any other way--they bring about a better understanding between persons and transmit ideas.

I do not understand what you mean by that! How can art do anything but seperate between the educated and the other ones? I have not consciously learned anything from German classes where literature and poetry were discussed than that it is a waste of time. Music is something great, sure, but the music we discussed in class was horrible - and while I learned something there, which I need when composing, I do not see it worth enough to be mandatory.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.


You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think

Split off from this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14571414#post14571414)

From the above thread, there seems to be strong agreement that the US education system has failed. Ther may be strong disagreement as to the degree of failure and the reasons, but I'd like to PLEASE TRY AND LEAVE THOSE ASIDE, and try to dig a bit deeper into the real fundament...

In today's world, what is an "education"? What should one know in order to be a functioning member of society?

People say the same thing about the UK education system. They probably say it in every country on the planet, to be honest.

Traditionally, after being educated one should have an understanding of the three "R"s, and be capable of recognising just how stupid that term actually is. The number of people walking out of secondary school without being able to spell simple words or perform simple mathematics is pretty bad, but probably overstated.

In modern society, however, I think it's necessary not only to teach reading, riting [sic] and rithmatic [sic], but people should also have a general understanding of computers; Windows and Microsoft Office particularly, given their prevalence in the world. Teaching people about how parliament works and the importance of the voting system should also be factored in there, along with a basic understanding of the most important laws and parliamentary acts that affect their daily lives and why they exist (in the naive hope that they might not break them when they know about them). The sciences are important too - not necessarily for understanding how gravitational singularities are formed, or how cells work, but for the analytical thinking they stimulate.

UK schools also teach students about religion - no, they don't (or at least they didn't at my school) indoctrinate the kids into any one particular religion, but rather teach the pupils a little about each of the major religions and the basics of what they believe. Presumably they think that knowing about the different cultures in the world will alleviate some of the intolerance that exists in the world, which is a lofty goal but probably a bit of wishful thinking.

In order to be a functioning member of society? IMO you need to be taught a basic knowledge (and I mean quite rudimentary here) of the following. This is not my definitive opinion, of course, its a "from the top of my head" job, comments welcome.

1. Maths and English (basic skills)
2. History (important for understanding the contemporary world around you, and where current political and social issues have come from)
3. Politics (so you can properly exercise your voting rights and understand the rights and duties of citizenship)
4. Philosophy (to develop the ability to think critically and abstractly)
5. Religion (so you can understand other peoples' beliefs - not aimed at endorsing at a particular religion)
6. A human body course linking human biology (including sex education) with lessons of the importance of a good diet and exercise (to put it crudely: how functional a member of society are you when you are too wide to get out the door, or die early from poor health).
7. Linked to the latter would be physical education, with students being given a wide choice of sports they wish partake in so as to encourage enthusiasm for exercise rather than doing a sport they hate.

After study of these, I think anything else is job training or for the joy of learning itself. Both of which should be encouraged. The rest of the school itinerary would then be made up of elective courses in which students can choose to go further with any of the subjects outlined above or pursue other subjects outside the core.

Split off from this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14571414#post14571414)

From the above thread, there seems to be strong agreement that the US education system has failed. Ther may be strong disagreement as to the degree of failure and the reasons, but I'd like to PLEASE TRY AND LEAVE THOSE ASIDE, and try to dig a bit deeper into the real fundament...

In today's world, what is an "education"? What should one know in order to be a functioning member of society?


The problem with the US education system is that it focuses purely on two things: job preparation, and test scores. We decide EVERYTHING based on your standardized test scores. A true education should be the art of training your mind to create abstract thoughts and create ideas which may be controversial, may not be popular, but stimulate conscious debate and coherent argument for the sake of learning and expanding greater knowledge. American's are so petrified by the fear of offending someone, that we cannot have reasonable debate or discussion without someone inevitably screaming racism, sexism, or purely somehow being offended and then destroying the entire debate. Certain minority groups and special interest use it masterfully to attain vast political capital here, which is a major impediment to, in my honest opinion, the creation and development of young minds.

Just my two cents...

7. Linked to the latter would be physical education, with students being given a wide choice of sports they wish partake in so as to encourage enthusiasm for exercise rather than doing a sport they hate.

You seem to think that PE actually helps children instead of being a place for (often enough teacher-led) bullying of weaker students. I still wish to get even with my sports teachers (with one exception) from primary school on, for their treatment of pupils.

You seem to think that PE actually helps children instead of being a place for (often enough teacher-led) bullying of weaker students. I still wish to get even with my sports teachers (with one exception) from primary school on, for their treatment of pupils.

Yeh. Given that I was widely accused of being gay, and was statemented as SEN (Special Educational Needs) partly due to coordination problems, I had NO experience of bullying in PE or the showers after and have no awareness of this issue :rolleyes:

As I said choice is important so that the kids can at least focus at the sport they enjoy most, and so those of a bullying tendency aren't concentrated en masse in the same group. But it is important that kids get some exercise, and with the obesity problem as it is, I don't think abolishing PE is a great idea.

I do not understand what you mean by that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TcOAMmY8yY

How can art do anything but seperate between the educated and the other ones?

And if everyone is educated....

I have not consciously learned anything from German classes where literature and poetry were discussed than that it is a waste of time.

Did you read anything by Goethe?

Music is something great, sure, but the music we discussed in class was horrible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_elappgMI9o

- and while I learned something there, which I need when composing, I do not see it worth enough to be mandatory.

Than you are either studying the wrong things, or you lack understanding of the right things.