NationStates Jolt Archive

This thread concerns a comparison of the two films mentioned in the title.

In my opinion, Barry Lyndon explores many of the same themes that A Clockwork Orange does; most importantly, both of the film's main characters are men--children, in many respects--who have not had enough guidance in life, and end up being hated by society. In my opinion, Barry Lyndon makes many of its points better than A Clockwork Orange does: for one thing, Alex, unlike Barry, is a sociopath. As for the novelty of the personality of Alex: I would not credit it to Anthony Burgess, as Willa Cather created someone much the same in Paul's Case (http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/authors/Cather/Pauls-Case.htm), except Willa Cather can sustain more hope for the "reform" of her delinquent, as he is not a rapist-murder-sadist who shows no remorse. I think A Clockwork Orange also hurts itself by making our highpoint of sympathy for Alex when he says "beautiful music" should not be associated with such awful things--one of the trademarks of this film is the director's use of such music to accompany violent scenes. I support the effect, but Alex's later complaints make the film seem hypocritical.

All-in-all, I would say both A Clockwork Orange and Barry Lyndon are fine films, but Barry Lyndon is more subtle and meaningful. In ending, I would like to say that I find it disturbing that A Clockwork Orange is frequently compared to The Shining; does anyone else? Also, did anyone else notice the similarity of the two films titled? if so, which did you prefer?

I read A Clockwork Orange, skipped the movie.

I read A Clockwork Orange, skipped the movie.

What is your opinion of "Chapter 21"?

I liked Barry Lyndon more. A Clockwork Orange (both the movie and the book) was hyped far more than it should have been.

I liked Barry Lyndon more. A Clockwork Orange (both the movie and the book) was hyped far more than it should have been.

I think that is due to the fact that it was watched a lot for its violence and sex, rather than for its message.

What is your opinion of "Chapter 21"?

It's nice to see that Alex sees what all's went wrong, and decided to turn it all around. A good ending, not nearly as gloomy and morose as the rest of the book. It's always nice to have a happy/redeeming ending every once in a while.

Well, I've never read those novels. As for the films, Barry Lyndon is in my top five of the best movie ever... while A Clockwork Orange ranks extremely low. It's almost as boring as Eyes Wide Shut - but I'm being more indulgent to Kubrick about EWS because he didn't finish the final cut.

The comparison between B.L. and A.C.O. is quite interesting, though. One should add, though, that the main difference is that in A.C.O. the protagonist's behaviour is recognised as "deviant" by the society... while in B.L. the protagonist's behaviour, while often morally and ethically lowly exactly as that of A.C.O., is considered "normal" by the society (as a matter of fact, BL's downfall and ruin is his own ethical choice - see the duel). In such light, I wouldn't call BL a sociopath. It's more of a growth of his own consciousness of ethics - in A.C.O. there is no ethics, maybe some moral, or just some convenience.

As for comparing The Shining with A.C.O.: w.t.f.

It's nice to see that Alex sees what all's went wrong, and decided to turn it all around. A good ending, not nearly as gloomy and morose as the rest of the book. It's always nice to have a happy/redeeming ending every once in a while.

But it is more than slightly unrealistic: even if Alex did reform, it would take years of counseling and medication, not just an epifemy. This is why, when Kubrick did hear about the chapter, he said he would not have included it in his film even if he had known about it beforehand.

Well, I've never read those novels. As for the films, Barry Lyndon is in my top five of the best movie ever... while A Clockwork Orange ranks extremely low. It's almost as boring as Eyes Wide Shut - but I'm being more indulgent to Kubrick about EWS because he didn't finish the final cut.

Barry Lyndon is possibly my favorite film of all time; A Clockwork Orange is still fairly good, but not something one should watch frequently.

The comparison between B.L. and A.C.O. is quite interesting, though. One should add, though, that the main difference is that in A.C.O. the protagonist's behaviour is recognised as "deviant" by the society... while in B.L. the protagonist's behaviour, while often morally and ethically lowly exactly as that of A.C.O., is considered "normal" by the society

But it is a hypocritical society. Barry is disliked for interfering with his cousin's financially motivated engagement, but Barry is also snubbed for later marrying for the same reasons. But yes, Barry is encouraged in his amoral behavior, whereas Alex is just left to his own devices.

(as a matter of fact, BL's downfall and ruin is his own ethical choice - see the duel).

An important event not in the book. That duel has to be the greatest climax ever filmed.

In such light, I wouldn't call BL a sociopath.

Obviously not: he apologizes to his wife and later weeps for his son's death.

It's more of a growth of his own consciousness of ethics - in A.C.O. there is no ethics, maybe some moral, or just some convenience.

It is missing a character with any redeeming qualities.

As for comparing The Shining with A.C.O.: w.t.f.

Frequently done. I often run into those who claim those two are Kubrick's only good films.

But it is a hypocritical society. Barry is disliked for interfering with his cousin's financially motivated engagement, but Barry is also snubbed for later marrying for the same reasons. But yes, Barry is encouraged in his amoral behavior, whereas Alex is just left to his own devices.
Exactly! Barry is a perfect part of the society (hence, not a sociopath) when he's being an hypocrite etc. He ethically redeems himself by discharging his gun on the ground: at that point, he's an hypocrite no more - and gets cut off from the society.



An important event not in the book. That duel has to be the greatest climax ever filmed.

It's NOT in the book? :eek: Oh my.



Obviously not: he apologizes to his wife and later weeps for his son's death.

Of course, growth of consciousness doesn't happen all of a sudden. The climax of it being the duel, but it has already begun.



It is missing a character with any redeeming qualities.

Do you think so? I don't see a redeeming of sorts in Alex. Just adaptation. I might be wrong, though.

Frequently done. I often run into those who claim those two are Kubrick's only good films.
Meh.
My favourites are: BL, Dr.Strangelove, and Full Metal Jacket.

Exactly! Barry is a perfect part of the society (hence, not a sociopath) when he's being an hypocrite etc. He ethically redeems himself by discharging his gun on the ground: at that point, he's an hypocrite no more - and gets cut off from the society.

I would say is always partially cut-off, mostly because is an "Irish upstart". I think one of the greatest points of the duel was Barry filling in the gap of manhood. He starts the film immature and ends it more mature than society. he tries to show he is man by shooting Capt. John Quinn in a duel, but in the end his shows his maturity by not shooting.

It's NOT in the book? :eek: Oh my.

I rarely support drastic changes from book-t-film, but Kubrick seems to know when to do it (see Doctor Strangelove).


Of course, growth of consciousness doesn't happen all of a sudden. The climax of it being the duel, but it has already begun.

Yes.

Do you think so? I don't see a redeeming of sorts in Alex. Just adaptation. I might be wrong, though.

I meant A Clockwork Orange lacked redeeming characters.


Meh.
My favourites are: BL, Dr.Strangelove, and Full Metal Jacket.

I would put Paths of Glory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DHhTjiVlF4) right up there, though it lacks a few of the literary qualities of Kubrick's later pictures--its ending scene is the most memorable (to me) in anti-war film history.

Barry Lyndon might qualify as a "perfect" or nearly perfect movie. The similarities between it and Clockwork Orange, though, are limited, I think. Barry Lyndon is obsessed with "playing the game" and gaining status and wealth, whereas Alex in ACO is more destructive and anti-social, and less politically shrewd. He's a typical gang kid with no sense of having a future and no moral sense, whereas Barry plans things several moves in advance (sometimes).

Barry Lyndon might qualify as a "perfect" or nearly perfect movie. The similarities between it and Clockwork Orange, though, are limited, I think. Barry Lyndon is obsessed with "playing the game" and gaining status and wealth, whereas Alex in ACO is more destructive and anti-social, and less politically shrewd. He's a typical gang kid with no sense of having a future and no moral sense, whereas Barry plans things several moves in advance (sometimes).

Barry is something like a male version of Thackeray's other creation, Becky Sharp.