NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjZeW2fcQHM

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2009/02/04/holder_promises_new_era_as_head_of_justice_dept/

Where's the change? Right f***ing here.




As a humorous postscript, the White House ONDCP seems to have failed to get the message.

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/drugfact/factsht/medical_marijuana.html

Is marijuana actually effective in helping chronic pain? I'm no hippie, but I do have chronic pain. I've never used marijuana, but I hear it's likely to be decriminalized near me in the near future. I'm just kinda skeptical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Marijuana

Read, and be informed.

From the wiki:

Cannabis as a medicine became common throughout much of the world by the 19th century. It was used as the primary pain reliever until the invention of aspirin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Marijuana

Read, and be informed.

From the wiki:

I had heard conflicting things. That's why I asked.

In other news (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_390_bill_20090223_introduced.html)...What all that means is that it would legalize marijuana in California and levy a $50/ounce tax on those who sell it. The bill would prohibit state and local authorities from enforcing the federal laws that of course could give a shit what California does, but we'll see.

It has some support on in the assembly. Realistically? Probably not even going to get to full vote much less pass. But we keep getting closer and closer...

In other news (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_390_bill_20090223_introduced.html)...What all that means is that it would legalize marijuana in California and levy a $50/ounce tax on those who sell it. The bill would prohibit state and local authorities from enforcing the federal laws that of course could give a shit what California does, but we'll see.

It has some support on in the assembly. Realistically? Probably not even going to get to full vote much less pass. But we keep getting closer and closer...

the bill was good until i read about the TAX. enough dang taxes already.

the bill was good until i read about the TAX. enough dang taxes already.

Face it: It's a luxury. Though I think medical prescriptions of it should be exempt from the taxes.

Face it: It's a luxury. Though I think medical prescriptions of it should be exempt from the taxes.

but it is a flat sales tax. this makes it regressive hurting poor pot smokers far more.

but it is a flat sales tax. this makes it regressive hurting poor pot smokers far more.

not comparatively

but it is a flat sales tax. this makes it regressive hurting poor pot smokers far more.

We're not going to get it for nothing.

It's a per ounce tax on the seller.

It doesn't change (therefore tax) medical marijuana.

Ten plant 'personal use' cultivation is not taxed.

Availability will eventually drive prices down so that with the tax it still might be the same price to buy your eighth or even cheaper.

I might just be willing to pay an extra $25 for the half-O I usually buy if I don't have to do it on the sly, if I could just pop down to the shop and pick one up. (though really I might just have a couple of plants going)

We're not going to get it for nothing.

It's a per ounce tax on the seller.

It doesn't change (therefore tax) medical marijuana.

Ten plant 'personal use' cultivation is not taxed.

Availability will eventually drive prices down so that with the tax it still might be the same price to buy your eighth or even cheaper.

I might just be willing to pay an extra $25 for the half-O I usually buy if I don't have to do it on the sly, if I could just pop down to the shop and pick one up. (though really I might just have a couple of plants going)

The point is if you dont lower the price of the legal to below that of current street prices then your not going to solve the black market, and crime and gang problems.

I seem to recall from some PBS show on marijuana that it costs about $8 an ounce to actually produce. Im sure that with economies of scale and commercial agriculture and not having to worry about expenses for secrecy etc, this price would go far far lower. Legal marijuanna ideally should cost no more and be taxed no more then a pack of cigarettes, let alone tax it at $50 an ounce.

Availability will eventually drive prices down so that with the tax it still might be the same price to buy your eighth or even cheaper

without sellers factoring in a risk premium, pot should wind up being dirt cheap. the bulk price of pot now is something on the order of $3000 per pound. the bulk price of tobacco? $2 per pound.

the bill was good until i read about the TAX. enough dang taxes already.

It's a sin tax, they're politically popular, they're useful, they're on things you don't need, they raise revenue and they help to achieve the socially optimal outcome by reallocating the external costs of marijuana use.

without sellers factoring in a risk premium, pot should wind up being dirt cheap. the bulk price of pot now is something on the order of $3000 per pound. the bulk price of tobacco? $2 per pound.

And you can grow pot damn near anywhere, unlike tobacco.


Even in the back room of the store across the street from my house :)

*ch-ching*

It's a sin tax, they're politically popular, they're useful, they're on things you don't need, they raise revenue and they help to achieve the socially optimal outcome by reallocating the external costs of marijuana use.

i find sin taxes to be repulsive.

i find sin taxes to be repulsive.

I really don't. We reallocate the costs of the externality (for example, when I get loaded and vomit on the sidewalk) from the general public to the individual. Further, when you levy a sin tax, the individuals who pay it pay of their own free will--because they opt to consume the non-necessity. In effect, it's a voluntary tax.

What's so bad about that?

so it occurs to me that any non-uniform move to legalization, or even decriminalization of growing your own, opens up some significant business opportunities for those willing to still engage in a couple felonies elsewhere...

The point is if you dont lower the price of the legal to below that of current street prices then your not going to solve the black market, and crime and gang problems.

I seem to recall from some PBS show on marijuana that it costs about $8 an ounce to actually produce. Im sure that with economies of scale and commercial agriculture and not having to worry about expenses for secrecy etc, this price would go far far lower. Legal marijuanna ideally should cost no more and be taxed no more then a pack of cigarettes, let alone tax it at $50 an ounce.

Right now it costs @$300-400 per ounce, depending on who you get it from and how good it is. If we take your $8/ounce cultivation cost, there is a lot of room there for the price of weed to drop. And, I have to say, if it's a question of saving a few buck but still having to catch the guy, go through all the hassle of an illegal drug buy, or pop down to the store and grab some, I'm going to go with the less hassle.

Or, if the price really bothers me, I'll grow a plant in my closet since I'm covered for up to ten.

The point is if you dont lower the price of the legal to below that of current street prices then your not going to solve the black market, and crime and gang problems.

you could actually have the legal price with tax be a bit above black market prices and it would still drive almost all of the gangs out of the business, provided you kept up enforcement against illegal selling. because the next factors are factors of convenience, which they presumably won't be able to beat without going legit themselves. there just won't be much of a market of people willing to risk punishment to buy and sell illegally for a savings of $25 or whatever when they could just go to the convenience store down the street. your new black market would be more of a grey market of people taking advantage of different taxation rates in different districts and such.

but yeah, if you significantly undercut the current rates (say by making the tax on $50 per ounce), and the gangs will either go legit themselves or find something better to do with their time, like next week. farming sucks.

without sellers factoring in a risk premium, pot should wind up being dirt cheap. the bulk price of pot now is something on the order of $3000 per pound. the bulk price of tobacco? $2 per pound.

3,000 dollars a pound ?!?!?! :eek:

I have never paid more then 100 dollars for an Oz in my life.
that comes to 1,600 a pound, and I am by no means a bulk buyer. 3,000 for a pound is if i buy a pound of pot in nickles and dimes maybe.

no clue how much the guy who bulk buy gets his for all drug dealers want to convince you that they aren't making any profit.

*note swag not dro*

3,000 dollars a pound ?!?!?! :eek:

I have never paid more then 100 dollars for an Oz in my life.
that comes to 1,600 a pound, and I am by no means a bulk buyer. 3,000 for a pound is if i buy a pound of pot in nickles and dimes maybe.

no clue how much the guy who bulk buy gets his for all drug dealers want to convince you that they aren't making any profit.

*note swag not dro*

What, are you in high school? Who the fuck still buys swag? (I'm in Northern California, maybe I'm spoiled, but seriously, who wants to work that hard to get high...)

3,000 dollars a pound ?!?!?! :eek:

I have never paid more then 100 dollars for an Oz in my life.
that comes to 1,600 a pound, and I am by no means a bulk buyer. 3,000 for a pound is if i buy a pound of pot in nickles and dimes maybe.

different markets different products, presumably. from what i've read, the average price per ounce in the USia is more like $200-$250. and that's including the low quality shit.

edit: for example, high times publishes a market analysis (http://hightimes.com/lounge/ht_admin/5074). not the final word in how much is selling, but certainly shows the range of prices.


CURRENT US PRICE INDEX: $364 (last month: $394, YTD: $379)
CURRENT KIND INDEX ($350+ PER OZ): $465 ($452, $459)
CURRENT MIDS INDEX ($150-$349 PER OZ): $270 ($263, $267)
CURRENT SCHWAG INDEX ($1-$149 PER OZ): $59 ($93, $76)

Where's the CHANGE Obama??

Oh, there it is....right, carry on then.

What, are you in high school? Who the fuck still buys swag?

hell, we avoided it even in high school.

Quality is much less important with a good vaporizer.

Where's the CHANGE Obama??

Oh, there it is....right, carry on then.

Really? I thought the change was in Cleveland...

What, are you in high school? Who the fuck still buys swag? (I'm in Northern California, maybe I'm spoiled, but seriously, who wants to work that hard to get high...)

You use swag as your base price. unless you try to set the base price of tequila with Patron ?
and when you smoke from a hookah mixed with sheesha you cant tell the difference anyways.

Quality is much less important with a good vaporizer.

try a hookah mixed with some sheesha stoned off your guard and even brown rag weed is smooth as hell.

You use swag as your base price.

not when calculating averages, you don't

You use swag as your base price. unless you try to set the base price of tequila with Patron ?
and when you smoke from a hookah mixed with sheesha you cant tell the difference anyways.

I don't set the base price at rotgut either. If you can't tell the difference, your weed sucks. Come to NorCal, come to flavor country. Find out what it's really like to smoke marijuana. Or (certain parts) of Canada. Or Amsterdam. (just so we don't start a pissing contest)

try a hookah mixed with some sheesha stoned off your guard and even brown rag weed is smooth as hell.

Im trying to spare my lungs for my old age so ive become a total vaporizer snob now. It really is so much better for you.

not when calculating averages, you don't

yes but when your trying to figure out how much the keeping it on the down low price is going to drop you need to. which had a bigger drop in price after (as a %) after prohibition rot gut liquor or premium liquor?
Dro your paying for quality.

Im trying to spare my lungs for my old age so ive become a total vaporizer snob now. It really is so much better for you.

I vap now almost exclusively because I'm the only one in the house who smokes and live in the living room, so it's a courtesy. Still, though, I use the good stuff. I wouldn't buy swag to line the hamster cage...

Im trying to spare my lungs for my old age so ive become a total vaporizer snob now. It really is so much better for you.

the point more being you could avoid the need to sink several hundred dollars every time you buy pot by simply throwing down a hundred dollars once when you buy a good means to smoke said pot.

Dro your paying for quality.

If they legalize it and tax it per ounce, then there will be no such thing as swag eventually. $50 tax an ounce will be 80% of the whole transaction cost and since your getting taxed per ounce, everyone will want to buy the very very best pot for their $50 of tax.

the point more being you could avoid the need to sink several hundred dollars every time you buy pot by simply throwing down a hundred dollars once when you buy a good means to smoke said pot.

I wish my vaporizer was $100. The Volcano is like $529 now but worth every penny.

If they legalize it and tax it per ounce, then there will be no such thing as swag eventually. $50 tax an ounce will be 80% of the whole transaction cost and since your getting taxed per ounce, everyone will want to buy the very very best pot for their $50 of tax.

Keep in mind that this law is in California, where seriously, I don't know where I could get swag. We've had discussions about it, some have even got nostalgic for those days when for whatever reason that's all they could get...swag, at least in NorCal (I know that SoCal for whatever reason likes their hybrids) more or less doesn't exist already.

Keep in mind that this law is in California, where seriously, I don't know where I could get swag. We've had discussions about it, some have even got nostalgic for those days when for whatever reason that's all they could get...swag, at least in NorCal (I know that SoCal for whatever reason likes their hybrids) more or less doesn't exist already.

I live in Upstate NY where we have crazy Ivy league Ag School geneticist geniuses running around in the woods. Entire strains are named from the County i live in lol.

I wish my vaporizer was $100. The Volcano is like $529 now but worth every penny.

here.
why wasn't hotbox acceptable?

If they legalize it and tax it per ounce, then there will be no such thing as swag eventually. $50 tax an ounce will be 80% of the whole transaction cost and since your getting taxed per ounce, everyone will want to buy the very very best pot for their $50 of tax.

only because of said crappy tax. they need to make a % based tax so only pot snobs pay for dro.

yes but when your trying to figure out how much the keeping it on the down low price is going to drop you need to. which had a bigger drop in price after (as a %) after prohibition rot gut liquor or premium liquor?
Dro your paying for quality.

why exactly should we be concerned about the % price drop? the risk premium is what will change first with legalization (followed by the super bulk discount of having mechanized multi-acre farms). without the risk premium, the pre-tax price should fall quickly to something only slightly above the cost of production and distribution.

since the tax would be a huge portion of the price of low-end shit, i guess maybe some idiots would try to maintain a black market in it. but since the good shit will cost about what they'll be charging for the crap, and to get it nobody would have to do anything shadier than go to the store, i don't see it lasting very long.

why exactly should we be concerned about the % price drop? the risk premium is what will change first with legalization (followed by the super bulk discount of having mechanized multi-acre farms). without the risk premium, the pre-tax price should fall quickly to something only slightly above the cost of production and distribution.

since the tax would be a huge portion of the price of low-end shit, i guess maybe some idiots would try to maintain a black market in it. but since the good shit will cost about what they'll be charging for the crap, and to get it nobody would have to do anything shadier than go to the store, i don't see it lasting very long.


that's all fine and dandy.... until the name brand effect pretty much removes all benefit.

look at history. prohibition ends and the premium liquors go up in price by a lot not because of Tax but because of the name brand effect.
when you adjust for inflation your cheap rot gut liquor goes down, and only recently has risen to prohibition levels.
Also you have way too much faith in machinery. We have farm aid because otherwise it would be cheaper to have stuff hand picked in Mexico then grown here by machine. and I doubt pot will qualify for said aid.

that's all fine and dandy.... until the name brand effect pretty much removes all benefit.

look at history. prohibition ends and the premium liquors go up in price by a lot not because of Tax but because of the name brand effect.
when you adjust for inflation your cheap rot gut liquor goes down, and only recently has risen to prohibition levels.

not knowing anything about the history of liquor prices, i have to ask...got a source for that? and why, exactly, should we fear branding? you can always grow your own, and somebody will sell discount store brands.

Also you have way too much faith in machinery. We have farm aid because otherwise it would be cheaper to have stuff hand picked in Mexico then grown here by machine. and I doubt pot will qualify for said aid.

that's not why we have farm aid.

and a mechanized farm in mexico will drive a non-mechanized one out of business. this is just a matter of productivity. but more importantly, the comparison i was making was between some guy with a growroom or a small field out in the national forest somewhere, and somebody being able to take advantage of economies of scale.

Really? I thought the change was in Cleveland...

No, you're thinking of nothing. It is nothing which is in Cleveland.