NationStates Jolt Archive

Looking at the bright side of student loans, there’s no way an awful lot of young Americans would get through college without them these days. They pay the bills.

But look at the dark side of those loans, and it’s a scary picture out there. Skyrocketing college costs have pushed new graduates deeper into debt than ever. And the debt itself is often structured as the most unforgiving loans you’ll ever find.

http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2009/02/student-loans/

How many of you are either in (or in deep) to a bank for your educations, and how many are considering it? Borrower beware, and/or tell your stories here.

I had the option of going to a couple of "elite" schools and graduating nose-deep in debt. Since I was doing something technical, it was pretty obvious to me that the better bet was to go to a moderately-regarded public school and graduate with small enough debt to fit on a credit card (I also took 6 months off to work full time during year 3)

Don't regret that decision AT ALL. It might be different for liberal arts people, or those getting an advanced degree, but: for engineers, where you have a tangible output that you are evaluated on and less of a reason for grad school, your choice of university only affects your first job. At most.

And of course there's a familiar name or two involved in the Student Loan industry.

Such as Fannie Mae.

Wonderful, wonderful signs there.

And of course there's a familiar name or two involved in the Student Loan industry.

Such as Fannie Mae.

Wonderful, wonderful signs there.

Sallie Mae. Fannie Mae was chartered to purchase and securitize mortgages. Sallie Mae was chartered to both loan and collect federally guaranteed student loans.

we have student loans from the govt. here in the UK, too. they got rid of grants about 10 years ago (at a guess), but its still heavily subsidised - we just pay a contribution. not as good as a grant, but its better than nothing.

myself, i have about 3 grand of student loans, after 2 years of university, that i'm paying off with my taxes each month. quite a good way of doing it if you ask me: its automatic, and i don't miss the money cos i never have it. some friends of mine are upwards of 20k in debt to the govt. and private loans after finishing uni. i got off light.

I owe Sallie Mae about 40K for 4 years of school. It sucks, but at least the 3% interest rate never changes. Now the fact that is arranged so I pay it off ever 30 years makes it painful, leaving in debt forever.

I find it shameful that our government is pushing debt as a solution to financial freedom. Debt is a tool to wealth is a myth we have been fed for years, and student loans only support that notion.

If our education system and taugh people how to handle money, and not just those that go into Financial fields we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

The college book market is almost the definition of a racket.

And of course there's a familiar name or two involved in the Student Loan industry.

Such as Fannie Mae.

Wonderful, wonderful signs there.

What's wrong with Fannie Mae? Barney Frank says they're great.

Luckily in the UK they're all government-regulated.

What's wrong with Fannie Mae? Barney Frank says they're great.

Hijacking troll is hijacking.

As I know you couldn't possibly be trolling, since you never do that, I can only assume that you haven't been paying attention to current events for the past 8 months, and have no idea of the financial difficulty that Fannie Mae is in. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_mae#The_mortgage_crisis_from_late_2007) is the Wikipedia article on Fannie Mae, particularly the section on the mortgage crisis.

I got my loans consolidated the minute I graduated, one loan at a fixed interest rate instead of several at (lower) variable ones. Glad I did... I still barely make payments but thats because the economy has sucked balls since I graduated and there are no fuckung jobs.

Hijacking troll is hijacking.

As I know you couldn't possibly be trolling, since you never do that, I can only assume that you haven't been paying attention to current events for the past 8 months, and have no idea of the financial difficulty that Fannie Mae is in. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_mae#The_mortgage_crisis_from_late_2007) is the Wikipedia article on Fannie Mae, particularly the section on the mortgage crisis.

DK posts something that's funny FOR ONCE IN HIS ENTIRE TIME HERE and you get all annoyed, no wonder he's so grumpy.

DK posts something that's funny FOR ONCE IN HIS ENTIRE TIME HERE and you get all annoyed, no wonder he's so grumpy.

Strange, I can't seem to find the dictionary definition of funny that goes "a compeltely off-topic dig at Democrats". Or perhaps I got annoyed because he's made that joke fifty thousand times, and it hasn't been funny for 49,999.999999 of those times.

Strange, I can't seem to find the dictionary definition of funny that goes "a compeltely off-topic dig at Democrats". Or perhaps I got annoyed because he's made that joke fifty thousand times, and it hasn't been funny for 49,999.999999 of those times.

Oh its attacking a democrat its not funny, gotcha. That's the first time I saw and I thought it was funny, of course I like digging at politicians in general because they are almost universally morons.

Oh come on, getting subsidized loans and sometimes outright subsidies - does it count as racketeering now? Yes, there are loan sharks everywhere, but here you get easy options.

That's so only if Property Is Crime.

Oh its attacking a democrat its not funny, gotcha. That's the first time I saw and I thought it was funny, of course I like digging at politicians in general because they are almost universally morons.

You enjoy your little chuckle at the overplayed and not humorous "joke", and I'll continue to call Hotwife on his repeated attempts to hijack every other thread here into a discussion about how bad Democrats are.

You enjoy your little chuckle at the overplayed and not humorous "joke", and I'll continue to call Hotwife on his repeated attempts to hijack every other thread here into a discussion about how bad Democrats are.

Or how about just ignoring most of what he says, its worked wonders for me.

It's generally been true that the four-year degree is worth the price - not because the education has specific bearing on the job you get, but because of the doors it opens and the social connections it helps you make. The American bachelor's degree often acts more like a mark of social class rather than of any particular expertise - and unlike social class or race, it can be used by employers legally to discriminate.

Which brings me to the next point:
I had the option of going to a couple of "elite" schools and graduating nose-deep in debt. Since I was doing something technical, it was pretty obvious to me that the better bet was to go to a moderately-regarded public school and graduate with small enough debt to fit on a credit card (I also took 6 months off to work full time during year 3)
The real value of going to one of those "elite" schools is the connections you would make there, which help you find the real cushy jobs closer to the wealthy. You're also much more likely to wind up dating someone well off than at a public university, as well.

And then sometimes, you can get a job just so your employer can say his (POSITION) is from (INSERT IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL HERE) in order to snow over the customers and make himself look competent. There is no doubt in my mind that Harvard graduates earn on average more than they would having gotten the same education out of a little-known public school.

The real value of going to one of those "elite" schools is the connections you would make there, which help you find the real cushy jobs closer to the wealthy. You're also much more likely to wind up dating someone well off than at a public university, as well.
Indeed.

So if you take a huge loan to go to Harvard - don't cry later about the payments, you knew what you were doing, you wanted more money for same job, and probably get it.

If it's education you're after, don't choose the most expensive college you can find.

I'm surprised any of you are shocked. The worst part is, these loans can never be forgiven - once you take one, you're fucked - bankruptcy won't even clear one.

we have student loans from the govt. here in the UK, too. they got rid of grants about 10 years ago (at a guess), but its still heavily subsidised - we just pay a contribution. not as good as a grant, but its better than nothing.

myself, i have about 3 grand of student loans, after 2 years of university, that i'm paying off with my taxes each month. quite a good way of doing it if you ask me: its automatic, and i don't miss the money cos i never have it. some friends of mine are upwards of 20k in debt to the govt. and private loans after finishing uni. i got off light.

I'm just going into the UK system, and it does seem quite nice. Tuition fees are covered by a loan, to be paid back once you start earning. Then there is both a maintenance grant (I think) and a maintenance loan. Then you have to start finding your own funds.

I like my student loans! :fluffle:

I like my student loans! :fluffle:

What are the terms?

Just for comparison here's what you get in the UK:

£3015 pa loan to cover fee+
Maintenance loan

Terms:
No repayments until earning>£15,000 PA
Interest rate is Rate of Inflation as set by the Consumer Price Index
Payments automatically taken out of paycheck by HMRC. Low repayments too.
If loan is not paid back after 15? years its written off.

A more generous loan you will be hard pressed to find.

The real value of going to one of those "elite" schools is the connections you would make there, which help you find the real cushy jobs closer to the wealthy. You're also much more likely to wind up dating someone well off than at a public university, as well.

Like the old money families with those connections would ever willingly associate themselves with some middle-class rube...

If people are going to Harvard expecting that they're going to get in to that social circle, I have a feeling they're in for quite a shock unless they're already at that level to begin with. Even if you're rich, it doesn't mean a whole lot unless that money has been in the family for generations. Really, the only reason to go to an Ivy League school is the stellar education, although the cost is going to be pretty painful unless you can get scholarships and grants.

Just for comparison here's what you get in the UK:

£3015 pa loan to cover fee+
Maintenance loan

Terms:
No repayments until earning>£15,000 PA
Interest rate is Rate of Inflation as set by the Consumer Price Index
Payments automatically taken out of paycheck by HMRC. Low repayments too.
If loan is not paid back after 15? years its written off.

A more generous loan you will be hard pressed to find.

And if you are from disadvantaged background you get a grant on top, which is needed since the exact loan amount isn't really enough to pay maintenance (students from slightly better off families often get a parental contribution). It's a lot of debt still and the Universities want them to raise the fee cap, which although I understand why, I think it a bad idea and it will mean even more debt for students and discourage even more people from disadvantaged background from going to uni.

Shame I never got one :( I got screwed by technicalities as I counted as an EU student due to parents living abroad. However, I still got only a grand a year of fees as this was before they put them up. And currently I'm getting a £12000 a year tax free grant for to do my PhD, so I can't complain.

I ended up with about 38k in loans for seven years of school (including grad school). Yeah, it's annoying that I'm going to be paying for the next 26 years, but, on the other hand, my interest rate is 1% and I ended up with a MS, so I really can't complain.

It would have been nice to have gotten more scholarships and grants, but thems the breaks.

http://www.newamerica.net/blog/higher-ed-watch/2008/class-action-lawsuit-challenges-sallie-mae-s-subprime-lending-practices-2589

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/23/AR2008012301275.html?wpisrc=_rsseducation

It's generally been true that the four-year degree is worth the price - not because the education has specific bearing on the job you get, but because of the doors it opens and the social connections it helps you make. The American bachelor's degree often acts more like a mark of social class rather than of any particular expertise - and unlike social class or race, it can be used by employers legally to discriminate.

Which brings me to the next point:

The real value of going to one of those "elite" schools is the connections you would make there, which help you find the real cushy jobs closer to the wealthy. You're also much more likely to wind up dating someone well off than at a public university, as well.

And then sometimes, you can get a job just so your employer can say his (POSITION) is from (INSERT IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL HERE) in order to snow over the customers and make himself look competent. There is no doubt in my mind that Harvard graduates earn on average more than they would having gotten the same education out of a little-known public school.

They'd better get a biug increase. At the current rate, for example, tuition for four years at MIT is $150,000. If (say) John Q. Einstein makes $3,000 a year more because of his MIT degree, it'll take FIFTY YEARS just to break even! Alternately, he can attend a state college -- and, IIRC, evbery state has them. SUNY Stony Brook, for example, was rated in the top 1% worldwide last year.... and, for a new yorker like me, would cost only $15,000 for four years -- so if John Q. Einstein went there instead of MIT and got a salary $3,000/year lower because of it, he'd still be ahead for the first 45 years.

...why didn't I realize this in 1996?

EDIT: Even for non-new yorkers, it's only ~$31,000 for four years -- which, at $3,000 less salary, is still ahead for 39 years and change.

I'm going to be graduating ass deep in debt, but that doesn't bother me because I plan to go completely insane after graduating. Chase can learn to accept payments in urine and long-winded rants about space aliens.

I'm going to be graduating ass deep in debt, but that doesn't bother me because I plan to go completely insane after graduating. Chase can learn to accept payments in urine and long-winded rants about space aliens.

Don't do what honest people might - like pay off your loan.

The lesson we learn from current events is that you should borrow shitloads of money, default, and then whine until the government takes the problem off your hands.

I'm going to be graduating ass deep in debt, but that doesn't bother me because I plan to go completely insane after graduating. Chase can learn to accept payments in urine and long-winded rants about space aliens.

A bill collector once tried to harass me. I ate his sweetbreads with some truffle risotto and a rich Chardonnay.

They'd better get a biug increase. At the current rate, for example, tuition for four years at MIT is $150,000. If (say) John Q. Einstein makes $3,000 a year more because of his MIT degree, it'll take FIFTY YEARS just to break even! Alternately, he can attend a state college -- and, IIRC, evbery state has them. SUNY Stony Brook, for example, was rated in the top 1% worldwide last year.... and, for a new yorker like me, would cost only $15,000 for four years -- so if John Q. Einstein went there instead of MIT and got a salary $3,000/year lower because of it, he'd still be ahead for the first 45 years.

...why didn't I realize this in 1996?

EDIT: Even for non-new yorkers, it's only ~$31,000 for four years -- which, at $3,000 less salary, is still ahead for 39 years and change.
For the graduating class of 2008, 45% of MIT students responding to their survey reported that they were going to work after graduating, and 42% going onto graduate school. 13% fell in the "other" category as of June, i.e., not many of them were having trouble finding something to do.

In addition to the increased chance of getting hired or getting into graduate school, MIT graduates also benefited from a substantially higher starting salary - $65,000, with a $10,000 signing bonus typical among those receiving a signing bonus.

The average 2008 college graduate who had a job offer started at $49,000. Starting bonuses highly atypical among normal college graduates.

And while MIT enjoys an incredible reputation, I'm not sure the social networking effect is as strong as at other elite universities.

And while MIT enjoys an incredible reputation, I'm not sure the social networking effect is as strong as at other elite universities.

Caltech is probably the same way. Based upon (anecdotal) evidence, it seems like social networking just isn't as important in technical fields; they place a lot more emphasis on intelligence and merit instead of the "who you know/who you blow" system common in some other fields. While I feel that social networking can sometimes be a good thing (especially for finding people who fit in to a given company's culture), I also strongly disapprove of hiring on the basis of nepotism or personal relationships when it comes at the cost of quality.

From what I've experienced, accounting is largely the same way given the huge legal risks that nepotism would pose in our field...considering the CEO can go to jail if they sign off on a bad financial statement, it's highly unlikely they would hire cronies if only due to the legal risk. I would get hired before, say, an employee's son or daughter if I'm the better of the two because it's too risky to really do otherwise. Sarbox and other legislation has been a blessing for the integrity of our profession.

For the graduating class of 2008, 45% of MIT students responding to their survey reported that they were going to work after graduating, and 42% going onto graduate school. 13% fell in the "other" category as of June, i.e., not many of them were having trouble finding something to do.

In addition to the increased chance of getting hired or getting into graduate school, MIT graduates also benefited from a substantially higher starting salary - $65,000, with a $10,000 signing bonus typical among those receiving a signing bonus.

The average 2008 college graduate who had a job offer started at $49,000. Starting bonuses highly atypical among normal college graduates.

And while MIT enjoys an incredible reputation, I'm not sure the social networking effect is as strong as at other elite universities.

Even with those numbers, it'd take 7 or 8 years to catch up to a SUNY Stony Brook graduate.

I owe about 17K in personal loans, and my parents owe another 20K or so for my school, which I'll take over once the economy stops killing my jobs. I haven't found them to be very unforgiving or unreasonable, actually. The interest rate is probably the lowest you can find, and they're quite reasonable about giving extensions.

The college book market is almost the definition of a racket.

THIS.

The woman who is supposed to be guiding me through my first year as a public school teacher actually complained to me yesterday about how she's in the publishing industry for textbooks and it's "taking a hit" in this economy. After telling me about her upcoming European cruise when I'm GETTING LAID OFF IN JUNE.

From what I've experienced, accounting is largely the same way given the huge legal risks that nepotism would pose in our field...considering the CEO can go to jail if they sign off on a bad financial statement, it's highly unlikely they would hire cronies if only due to the legal risk. I would get hired before, say, an employee's son or daughter if I'm the better of the two because it's too risky to really do otherwise. Sarbox and other legislation has been a blessing for the integrity of our profession.

Indeed. In the Auditing course i took last semester we looked into the regulations for the staff of a professional services firm undertaking an audit on another firm and any sort of relationship with members of the audited party - personal or financial - seemed to be highly frowned upon. I'm not sure that the same ethics apply to the other consultancy services that are provided though. I think a great deal of networking could be valuable for a management consultant who works for a big four company.

I'm in for about 15K; my six month grace period expires at the end of next month. We get eight years to pay them off at market interest rates (I think it's prime +2, maybe +3?).

I'm not finding it arduous so far; I made payments before I had to, and I'm in a job that will make paying it off feasible, if not necessarily easy. I got off light on two fronts, though; my debt load is lighter than average and I did pretty well for a first job post-degree. I can see how some kids end up in trouble fast....or at least in their parents' basements for a few years afterwards.

I owe Sallie Mae about 40K for 4 years of school. It sucks, but at least the 3% interest rate never changes. Now the fact that is arranged so I pay it off ever 30 years makes it painful, leaving in debt forever.

I find it shameful that our government is pushing debt as a solution to financial freedom. Debt is a tool to wealth is a myth we have been fed for years, and student loans only support that notion.

If our education system and taugh people how to handle money, and not just those that go into Financial fields we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

My youngest brother just got a federal Stafford loan through Sallie Mae at about 7%. I was never comfortable running up debt, and paid for my undergrad degree through part-time jobs, but he's happy with it. What concerns me is that he doesn't know whether he has to fill out another FAFSA form and apply to the govenment for a loan for his next semester's tuition, or whether he is supposed to apply to Sallie Mae directly. I didn't know what to tell him. It makes me think he hasn't thought things out well enough.

My youngest brother just got a federal Stafford loan through Sallie Mae at about 7%. I was never comfortable running up debt, and paid for my undergrad degree through part-time jobs, but he's happy with it. What concerns me is that he doesn't know whether he has to fill out another FAFSA form and apply to the govenment for a loan for his next semester's tuition, or whether he is supposed to apply to Sallie Mae directly. I didn't know what to tell him. It makes me think he hasn't thought things out well enough.

7%! Yikes.

I was chronically late filling out my FAFSA. Every year I thought they'd boot me. But apparently once they had some of my money, they figured I was good for the rest of it.

I was fortunate enough to have my parents pay for my undergrad degree at a public university; I was working by the time I went back for my masters' and was able to pay my own way. Student loans: zero.

7%! Yikes.

I was chronically late filling out my FAFSA. Every year I thought they'd boot me. But apparently once they had some of my money, they figured I was good for the rest of it.

Ah, so he's got to fill out a new one ever semester then, yes? I'm sure he'll be happy to know that. :p

My daughter went to a private university for her Master's degree. In spite of going to public schools for her undergraduate work and having the first two years underwritten by the GI bill (from her seven years as a Navy non-com), she still had a cumulative debt of $90,000. Fortunately, when she was commissioned in the Air Force, they paid about $30,000 of it. It's still a lot of money, but she counts it as worth it.

I went to college for free. The Marine Corps paid for every penny. Tuition, books, supplies, and sent me a check to live off of. I saw many, many people struggle to get financial support for their education and it was disheartening. What really amazed me was that foreign exchange students got to go for free. I never understood why an American citizen had to pay for college when a foreigner got to go for free.

The college book market is almost the definition of a racket.

Indeed...which is why getting books online is the definition of awesome.

I've got about 5k in loans still left out there...I hope to have them paid off in full before the end of the year.

Considering I didn't pay on them at all for nearly three years, Sallie Mae has been remarkably patient. :tongue:

EDIT: Fuck these ads.

I borrowed $28k total. After making payments for 10 years, the interest is dead, and the principal is down to $25k. I had automatic payments, which shaved 1% off the original 4.75@. After 36 months of on-time payments (thanks again to automatics), it was slashed another 2%. I'm now paying only 2.75% on my student loans, and at $100/mo. automatic, I get letters telling me I'm paid ahead for a while. Feels good, I guess.

Even with those numbers, it'd take 7 or 8 years to catch up to a SUNY Stony Brook graduate.
Provided both get hired right off the bat, somewhere around there, yes. It will of course depend strongly on individual circumstances, which makes it hard to generalize, but that sounds reasonable.

On a more personal note, I've wound up borrowing $8500 in subsidized Staffords. Since I'm going for my Ph. D. next, and will be getting paid for my trouble while the next four to six years of inflation eat away at that total, I'm not greatly concerned about it.

[...]she still had a cumulative debt of $90,000. Fortunately, when she was commissioned in the Air Force, they paid about $30,000 of it. It's still a lot of money, but she counts it as worth it.
Everyone counts it as worth it, except those who end up as fry cooks. For everyone else, gains far, far outweigh the expenses.

Without a degree you'll be lucky to make 30 grand a year, and not get stuck at 20 - while with a degree, you'll start at 40. There's a significant income gap already at Bachelor's.

My situation is somewhat unusual. I'm a UK citizen who used to be a (Green Card) permanent resident of the US. My undergraduate degree is from an American institution, and I escaped debt-free. I paid for my (British) MA myself, but then used an American student loan to pay for my British PhD. I counted as an overseas student in my own country of citizenship because you have to be both a citizen of an EU country and a resident of the EU for the previous three years to count as a home student in the UK. Because of this, I need a student loan to pay for my PhD, wasn't eligible for a British one, but the Americans would give me one because even though I was a UK citizen studying in the UK, I counted as an American resident for loan purposes. They weren't to know that I'd never live in the US again after 1996.

By the time I started paying off my USD$60,000 student loan in earnest, I was living in Australia. The Sallie Mae couldn't cope with that, and refused to send payment slips to Melbourne, so I had to arrange to send the money to my parents in the Washington DC suburbs, who would then pretend to be me when paying off the loan each month.

A couple of years into the loan payment, the loaning body suddenly announced that they were trebling both the required monthly payment and increasing the interest rate.

I couldn't afford this.

I was luckly to come to an arrangement with my parents whereby they paid off the rest of my loan, and I would then pay them a monthly amount. I still had a debt to pay off, but now it was to family rather than Sallie Mae. This had several benefits: I had no more formal debt, no more interest rates to worry about, and I could adjust the level of the monthly payments according to circumstances, while my parents could rely on a small additional regular income during their retirement.

But Sallie Mae shot themselves in the foot since by increasing payments and interest rates - presumably to increase their income - they removed me from their income stream entirely. At the same time, I recognise that not everyone would have been lucky enough to have parents who were able to help them with a similar solution.

Sallie Mae spent a lot of time trying to discourage my parents from paying off the rest of my loan, sending them dire warnings about how they simply had to charge me interest to protect themselves, and simply had to arrange a formal legal contract to protect all of us. We cheerfully ignored them.

My situation is somewhat unusual. I'm a UK citizen who used to be a (Green Card) permanent resident of the US. My undergraduate degree is from an American institution, and I escaped debt-free. I paid for my (British) MA myself, but then used an American student loan to pay for my British PhD. I counted as an overseas student in my own country of citizenship because you have to be both a citizen of an EU country and a resident of the EU for the previous three years to count as a home student in the UK. Because of this, I need a student loan to pay for my PhD, wasn't eligible for a British one, but the Americans would give me one because even though I was a UK citizen studying in the UK, I counted as an American resident for loan purposes. They weren't to know that I'd never live in the US again after 1996.

Yeah, that residency clause is fun isn't it. Because my parents lived abroad (luckily EU), I couldn't get a student loan for my undergrad either. On the other hand, it does work both ways - because of my parents living in Belgium and paying taxes there, I could, if I wanted, have gone to Uni there for significantly reduced fees.

One thing I will say for the UK system, as well as the nice student loans (if you can get them), is that all Universities are public. You will be paying the same fees whether you go to Cambridge or the University of Keele, so finance shouldn't come into the decision of where you go (barring possibly avoiding London due to living costs), only educational ability.

I do OU, shits free because I earn like under 30K and I can have a job whilst I do it

also LOL @ students calling their loans extortionate when they haven't seen half their paychecks disappear and also find out that if they get a cheap part-time job they will lose money :mad:

I do OU, shits free because I earn like under 30K and I can have a job whilst I do it

also LOL @ students calling their loans extortionate when they haven't seen half their paychecks disappear and also find out that if they get a cheap part-time job they will lose money :mad:

How does the circumstance of repayment make the loan itself any less "extortionate"?

if the loans are so bad get a forged polish ID card and become a day laborer in the UK.

Everyone counts it as worth it, except those who end up as fry cooks. For everyone else, gains far, far outweigh the expenses.

Without a degree you'll be lucky to make 30 grand a year, and not get stuck at 20 - while with a degree, you'll start at 40. There's a significant income gap already at Bachelor's.

Simply not true, this is a marketing ploy that cleverly plays on people's insecurities. Skilled tradesmen make solidly middle-class salaries, and there is need of them. People with doctorates can also end up fry cooks. Huge swaths of the young population begin a life saddled with debt, this is a wet dream for financiers who have no conscience. BA's are a dime a dozen, so those seeking a decent pay scale are forced into ponying up for more school, and more debt. It's not the middle class getting richer in all this, that's for sure.

See this story about law professionals desperately struggling with their student loan payments.

http://snipurl.com/crt3q [www_abajournal_com]

What are the terms?

Very beneficial.

How does the circumstance of repayment make the loan itself any less "extortionate"?

I don't have a loan but what I am is a productive member of society

if the loans are so bad get a forged polish ID card and become a day laborer in the UK.

you need ID to work in the UK now :confused:

I've been getting only a $3000-$3500 scholarship per year, and most of my expenses have been covered by that and a $5000 educational IRA my dad set up when I was a wee lad. I'm into my third year and I haven't had to take a loan out yet.

Of course, living with my parents has its challenges. Dealing with people of a particular... intelligence level, for one. Oh, and acting as a fucking chauffer, that's always fun. At least the food is free-ish, though.

I've been getting only a $3000-$3500 scholarship per year, and most of my expenses have been covered by that and a $5000 educational IRA my dad set up when I was a wee lad. I'm into my third year and I haven't had to take a loan out yet.

Of course, living with my parents has its challenges. Dealing with people of a particular... intelligence level, for one. Oh, and acting as a fucking chauffer, that's always fun. At least the food is free-ish, though.

I'll bet you present some interesting challenges for them, too. And certainly, they were intelligent enough to set up an educational IRA for you.

My daughter lived with me all through six years of university - it's a lot of fun living with someone who thinks that educational level = intelligence level and that if your interests don't coincide with hers, that somehow reflects poorly on your intelligence.

I'll bet you present some interesting challenges for them, too. And certainly, they were intelligent enough to set up an educational IRA for you.

My daughter lived with me all through six years of university - it's a lot of fun living with someone who thinks that educational level = intelligence level and that if your interests don't coincide with hers, that somehow reflects poorly on your intelligence.

Not my parents, my siblings...

Though I do occasionally razz my parents for surpassing the upper bounds of their math studies by 8th grade. XD

Yeah, that residency clause is fun isn't it. Because my parents lived abroad (luckily EU), I couldn't get a student loan for my undergrad either. On the other hand, it does work both ways - because of my parents living in Belgium and paying taxes there, I could, if I wanted, have gone to Uni there for significantly reduced fees.

One thing I will say for the UK system, as well as the nice student loans (if you can get them), is that all Universities are public. You will be paying the same fees whether you go to Cambridge or the University of Keele, so finance shouldn't come into the decision of where you go (barring possibly avoiding London due to living costs), only educational ability.

And the maintenance grants and loans are more generous if you're studying in London, so even that is somewhat dealt with. It can actually be more expensive to go for a different city where you get less financial support but pay nearly as much to live.

Simply not true, this is a marketing ploy that cleverly plays on people's insecurities. Skilled tradesmen make solidly middle-class salaries, and there is need of them. People with doctorates can also end up fry cooks. Huge swaths of the young population begin a life saddled with debt, this is a wet dream for financiers who have no conscience. BA's are a dime a dozen, so those seeking a decent pay scale are forced into ponying up for more school, and more debt. It's not the middle class getting richer in all this, that's for sure.

See this story about law professionals desperately struggling with their student loan payments.

http://snipurl.com/crt3q [www_abajournal_com]

Exactly this.^

I don't have a loan but what I am is a productive member of society. *snip*

Okay, but that doesn't answer the question. Regardless of the outcome of the loan, or even whether or not one chooses to get one, how does your not having one somehow make the loans themselves anything BUT predatory?

See this story about law professionals desperately struggling with their student loan payments.
http://snipurl.com/crt3q [www_abajournal_com]
And the article doesn't mention how much do these lawyer earn per hour, does it? Making it irrelevant.

They have to be at the very bottom among their profession to end up with difficulties paying off these debts. So they either started to live above their means 'cause they're lawyers, the blue blood, rather than scraping up to pay off their debt as other graduates, or were of particularly low employability.


Skilled tradesmen make solidly middle-class salaries, and there is need of them.
They do, and there's a great need of them. But most people want a cushy white collar 9 to 5 job that would require no real skills or mental effort, and pay well.

And the fun part is, millions of tons of pen-pushers do get that just by the virtue of a degree, furthermore, earning on par or above skilled tradesmen who do actual work.


People with doctorates can also end up fry cooks.
They do. But only when they choose a high-competition job that they aren't suited for. Attracted by big incomes of lawyers/doctors/etc., disregarding what they actually want to do, where their talents lie, even the actual job supply/demand and requirements.

9 times of 10, "I want to be a lawyer" means "These lawyers charge a lot, I want to be rich too", rather than a desire to do the actual job. Well, with such a decision-making strategy... way to end up educated and unemployed.

As one commenter to the article has said well:
Why is such a sense of entitlement with lawyers and law school grads? The law is no different from any other profession or occupation struggling with the employment especially during this econonmy. You took on 100-250K in debt, so of course you are entitled to a dream job which fills your every need and desire.
There's a lot of people who have hard time with loans, but the ones we're supposed to be most concerned about are certainly those who took the most expensive education for the highest-paying jobs.

---

I could go to some law school, and, being a pedantic, rational, cynical person, would graduate and end up at least in the middle. But I didn't. Instead I learned to do the job which I have the most talent for, and which was in particularly high demand where I live. Took effort to find a part-time job in the same field (and actually the same company) starting at 16 and all the way through college to let experience years pile up. Made connections at work, made sure to be noticed, lightened off my bills.
The result is, while I don't earn as much as a lawyer, it's still well in the top 5% overall, but for that, I'm actually satisfied with my job, have good prospects, and solid job security.

Just do what you have the knack for and you'll do well. If that requires college, it will pay off. If it doesn't, these 6 years (and high school spare time too) are better spent getting job experience in the field. But in either case, student loans aren't the factor to base the decision on. For most degrees, the costs are very manageable.

My daughter lived with me all through six years of university - it's a lot of fun living with someone who thinks that educational level = intelligence level and that if your interests don't coincide with hers, that somehow reflects poorly on your intelligence.

how superior did she feel when you made her do the dishes :D

how does your not having one somehow make the loans themselves anything BUT predatory?

you have no income, no collateral, no credit history and belong to a group of people who are notorious bad borrowers

you should feel lucky that your being given a loan at all

I've done a bachelors degree loan-free, and will not need loans until my second year of my masters degree-I don't quite see the problem everyone else seems to have with not getting them, and just pulling a few more hours at work (or in the library, to increase grades and get merit funding)