NationStates Jolt Archive

David and Samantha Cameron have passed on their thanks for the messages of support after the death of son Ivan, their "beautiful boy".

William Hague, standing in for the Conservative leader as PM's questions was suspended, said Ivan had brought "joy and love to those around him".

Gordon Brown said everyone's thoughts and prayers were with the family.

Six-year-old Ivan, who had cerebral palsy and epilepsy, died at St Mary's Hospital in Paddington, London.

Mr Brown, who suggested suspending the weekly Commons clash as a mark of respect, said every child was "precious and irreplaceable" and that the death of a child "was something that no parent should have to bear".

The prime minister, whose daughter Jennifer Jane died aged just 10 days in 2002, paid tribute to Ivan saying: "I know that in an all too brief life, he brought joy to all those around him and I know also that for all the days of his life, he was surrounded by his family's love."

'Short life'

Mr Hague told MPs he had spoken to Mr Cameron, who wanted to pass on the family's thanks for their messages of condolence and say how "hugely grateful" they were to the NHS staff who had helped Ivan throughout his life.

Mr Hague said: "Ivan's six years of life were not easy ones. His parents lived with the knowledge for a long time that he could die young, but this has made their loss no less heart-breaking...

“ Together they will come through this and treasure the memories they have of Ivan ”
George Osborne, shadow chancellor

"Ivan suffered much in his short life, but he brought joy and love to those around him and, as David himself has said in the past, for him and Samantha he will always be their beautiful boy."

Deputy Lib Dem leader Vince Cable, who is standing in for Nick Clegg, also expressed his party's condolences in a short statement, appealing for the family to be given space to "grieve and cope with this tragedy that they've experienced".

Commons Speaker Michael Martin then suspended the sitting until 1230 GMT "as a mark of respect to Ivan".

'Strong family'

MPs from across the political spectrum have expressed their condolences to Mr Cameron, who has been leader of the UK's official opposition since 2005.

And Buckingham Palace said the Queen had sent a private message of sympathy.

Shadow Chancellor George Osborne, a close family friend, said that although Ivan had often been hospitalised in the past, his death had been sudden, just 45 minutes after being admitted to hospital and had "caused a profound shock and, of course, huge grief".

He told BBC Two's Daily Politics: "Even with his very severe problems, he was part of family life and they are obviously absolutely devastated by what's happened."

But he added that the Camerons were a "strong" family and that "together they will come through this and treasure the memories they have of Ivan".

Mr Cameron, who has two other children Nancy, five, and Arthur, three, had been an MP for Witney, in Oxfordshire, for less than a year when Ivan was born in April 2002.

He suffered from Ohtahara syndrome, a very rare form of epilepsy characterised by spasms which start in the first days of life. Some children can suffer as many as 100 seizures every day.

Describing the moment when he learned of Ivan's disabilities, Mr Cameron told the Sunday Times in 2005: "The news hits you like a freight train.

"You are depressed for a while because you are grieving for the difference between your hopes and the reality. But then you get over that, because he's wonderful."

NHS praise

Friends have said the experience of caring for Ivan broadened Mr Cameron's political outlook and made him a passionate supporter of the NHS, which helped provide the round-the-clock care Ivan needed.

"The problems that Ivan had in some way shaped that family and shaped David as a person," said George Osborne.

In a 2007 speech, Mr Cameron described how he cared for the "severely disabled" Ivan.

"It's what I do at the start of each day. It's sharpened my focus on the world of care assessments, eligibility criteria, disability living allowance, respite breaks, OTs, SENCOs, and other sets of initials.

"But I would not dare to call myself a carer. The work that full-time carers or those with little extra help do is unbelievable."

But he also spoke of how proud he was of Ivan, saying in another interview: "He is a magical child with a magical smile that can make me feel like the happiest father in the world.

"We adore him in ways that you will never love anybody else, because you feel so protective."

The Camerons have asked that, rather than sending flowers, people send donations to Mencap or the Friends of St Mary's Hospital.

Shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague will stand in for Mr Cameron as Conservative leader while he takes time off, it is understood.

A Number 10 dinner later to mark the unveiling of a portrait of Baroness Thatcher which Mr Cameron had been scheduled to attend has also been cancelled.

Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7909562.stm)

Condolences to the Cameron family for the loss of 6 year old Ivan. I cannot imagine such grief.

:(

:(

Very sad. Parents are not meant to bury their children. I hope they can find some comfort somewhere in this mess.

Horrible, but I just heard a man on the radio calling it an unexpected loss. Considering he was in and out of hospital for a lot of his short life, I wouldn't call it unexpected.

Very tragic. It's a hard situation to be in. This part in particular:

"Ivan suffered much in his short life, but he brought joy and love to those around him..."

was difficult to read. While I understand the sentiment they're trying to express, it seems... I'm not sure, almost inappropriate? Selfish? His suffering certainly wasn't diminished by the joy he brought other people...

Of course not... but it's a terrible thing to lose a six year old child, regardless of their health problems.

Of course not... but it's a terrible thing to lose a six year old child, regardless of their health problems.

Of course it is. I said it was tragic. I am not DK.

Horrible, but I just heard a man on the radio calling it an unexpected loss. Considering he was in and out of hospital for a lot of his short life, I wouldn't call it unexpected.

Expected at some point, but not expected immediately. He died within less than an hour of the Camerons noticing that anything was more wrong than usual, according to the BBC.

The poor family. It's a terrible thing for a father to have to bury his son.

The poor family. It's a terrible thing for a father to have to bury his son.

It's ok, the Camerons are rich.

I'm sure they can afford to pay someone to do it on his behalf.

Losing a child is hard enough. Losing a child to an illness or condition you knew they would have...that's an ethical mess that hurts to think about.

On the one hand, the thought of terminating a pregnancy simply because the growing fetus is imperfect makes me cringe, and I'm about as pro-choice as you can possibly get. I have several close friends with disabilities, and every day they face the fact that people view them as "less than" or broken or defective. My own brother was born with a condition that led to seizures and brain damage, and I sincerely believe that the world is a better place because my brother is a part of it. Disability or illness do not make someone less of a person. Some people die younger than others, yet that doesn't necessarily mean that they've lived less.

But on the other hand, there's something...I don't know...selfish-feeling about the idea of going ahead with a pregnancy when you KNOW that the baby is going to live a short, painful life. Something seems off about comments like how "he brought so much joy" to other people. I don't think one's decision to have a child should be based on how much joy the child might bring to anybody else. If I know that my body is in the process of making a baby that will suffer for a few short years and then die, should I really allow my body to continue making that baby? Should I allow it to develop to the point where it can be aware of its own suffering?


At the end of the day, I think this is one of those individual decisions that nobody can make for anybody else. I don't even know how I would make it for myself.

The Camerons decided to have this child, to care for him, to love him, and to endure a kind of loss that I can't even completely wrap my mind around. From what they have chosen to share with the public, it sounds like they made the choice that was right for them, and they have my deepest sympathy for their loss.

I don't know what choice I would make in their place, I can only hope that I would end up feeling that it was the right one in the end.

The Camerons decided to have this child, to care for him, to love him, and to endure a kind of loss that I can't even completely wrap my mind around. From what they have chosen to share with the public, it sounds like they made the choice that was right for them, and they have my deepest sympathy for their loss.

I don't know what choice I would make in their place, I can only hope that I would end up feeling that it was the right one in the end.


I agree with a lot of what you said, but this isn't quite true. The Camerons didn't know that Ivan had this disease until a few days after he was born, according to the BBC at least, so the moral issue didn't really arise: I'm very pro-choice, but even I think that retrospective abortion is wrong.

Nitpicking, I know. Sorry.

A horrible thing to happen, to anyone.

I'm reminded of a line from... somewhere: A person whose spouse dies is called a widower. A child whose parents die is called an orphan. But we don't have a name for those parents whose children die. It's as if the concept's too terrible to be named.

The prime minister, whose daughter Jennifer Jane died aged just 10 days in 2002...
I forgot about that.

Dearie me.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but this isn't quite true. The Camerons didn't know that Ivan had this disease until a few days after he was born, according to the BBC at least, so the moral issue didn't really arise: I'm very pro-choice, but even I think that retrospective abortion is wrong.

Nitpicking, I know. Sorry.
Ahhh, my mistake, I thought I had read a story that said they knew something was wrong.

Although if we wanted to get really horrible we could raise that as an issue, to. I mean, let's face it, historically it has been very common for children who are perceived as "defective" to simply be left to die. This still happens in the world today. In some cultures it is or was perceived as more merciful for a child to die a short death of exposure, or to be smothered or something, rather than allowed to live and suffer. It's very easy for those of us who live comfortable first-world lives to look at that with horror, but where is the tipping point? At what point is a child suffering so much that it is a mercy for them to die? This is nightmare stuff to think about...

Parents are currently allowed to make life-or-death medical decisions for their kids. Where do we draw the line for that? At what point (if any) does a child have a right to continue living that supersedes their parents' right to make medical choices?

And these are not questions I'm posing sarcastically or rhetorically. This is shit that I still haven't fully sorted out in my own mind.

I'm reminded of a line from... somewhere: A person whose spouse dies is called a widower. A child whose parents die is called an orphan. But we don't have a name for those parents whose children die. It's as if the concept's too terrible to be named.

I'd never thought about that. :(

Out of curiosity, do other languages have a word for a parent who has lost a child? I'm guessing that if any of the romance languages had one then English would have one by now, but maybe that's not true.

I'd never thought about that. :(

Out of curiosity, do other languages have a word for a parent who has lost a child? I'm guessing that if any of the romance languages had one then English would have one by now, but maybe that's not true.
A library reference desk (http://www.dcpl.info/askref.htm):

Q. Is there an English word to describe a parent who has had a child die?

A. There is no modern English word for a parent who has lost a child, but hundreds of years ago, a person bereaved due to the death of a child was said to be "orb," and in a state called "orbity."

I'd never thought about that. :(

Out of curiosity, do other languages have a word for a parent who has lost a child? I'm guessing that if any of the romance languages had one then English would have one by now, but maybe that's not true.

A library reference desk (http://www.dcpl.info/askref.htm):

Perhaps it comes out of the callous assumption you can just have more kids (as if a new one is a replacement)?

Perhaps it comes out of the callous assumption you can just have more kids (as if a new one is a replacement)?
I dunno, there has been an equally callous assumption that if your spouse dies you can just get a new one, too.

Although maybe that's different because we tend to view adults as fully-formed individuals, while babies are a bit less so?

God this is a depressing subject...

A library reference desk (http://www.dcpl.info/askref.htm):
Huh, I never knew that. Interesting.

The Germans must have a term. They have a term for everything.

In my brief, fruitless search I read that the quote came from Six Feet Under.

In my brief, fruitless search I read that the quote came from Six Feet Under.
That's the one!

Brenda says it, I believe.

It's ok, the Camerons are rich.

I'm sure they can afford to pay someone to do it on his behalf.

That was low.

Not to diminish the condolences that anyone would want to give to the Camerons, but would you want the event and your child's life story publicised all over the national news? I feel it's rather over-the-top, far more so than when Brown's child died.

Not to diminish the condolences that anyone would want to give to the Camerons, but would you want the event and your child's life story publicised all over the national news? I feel it's rather over-the-top, far more so than when Brown's child died.
Everyone has their ways of dealing. DC has always seemed to me to have more of a...symbiotic (for want of a better word) relationship with the media, and maybe this public announcement is his way of coping.

Also, it's a good way of raising awareness of disabilities of this ilk.

Kudos, too, to Gordon Brown, putting aside petty squabbling and offering heartfelt condolences to a man in a situation he knows all too well - a father greiving over his lost child.

Out of curiosity, do other languages have a word for a parent who has lost a child? I'm guessing that if any of the romance languages had one then English would have one by now, but maybe that's not true.
I'm not sure about currently, but I remember a reference to Heian era Japan where a woman would be called 'empty'. They also produced a lot of poetry to deal with and express their grief.

My condolences to the parents; I can only imagine, and fear, what they must be going through right now.

My condolences to the Camerons.

My deepest condolences to the family. This kind of pain should never have to be experienced by anyone and only furthers my belief--as it did for Cameron--in the necessity of some kind of NHS. But I don't mean to derail into an agenda here.

I wanted to touch a bit on the questions that were raised earlier. For starters, on whether a pregnancy should be terminated if the child will have a crippling illness and/or a shortened lifespan. I do agree that it's an exceedingly difficult choice, and I can't give an answer with enough certainty to disagree that it is an individual choice. That said, just because a life is difficult and short doesn't necessarily mean it isn't worth living, right? I can't imagine that to be the case from my perspective, but then I don't think I could ever fully grasp life from the perspective of that situation.

Also, as far as where the "tipping-point" is, that's another good question. And I can't answer it fairly unless I can remove myself from my emotions and look at it rationally. But I can't do that either. I'd like to say that I'm uncomfortable with anyone making the decision to terminate a life that isn't the person in question. But considering that we're dealing with children, they may not fully grasp the impact of their decision. Although I'm even more horrified with the idea of a parent euthanizing a child against their will.

So I've pretty much talked around in circles to the exact same point that Bottle was making, which is that it's really a difficult and messy issue.

And yeah, it's depressing.:(

I'm reminded of a line from... somewhere: A person whose spouse dies is called a widower. A child whose parents die is called an orphan. But we don't have a name for those parents whose children die. It's as if the concept's too terrible to be named.


Or considering that infant mortality rates weren't always as low as they are now, maybe it's just a condition that was traditionally too common to warrant a name.