NationStates Jolt Archive

In an uncharacteristical move, I decided to go to church today for Ash Wednesday. I was listening (or half-listening) to the priest and the people singing, and I became heavy. Not only that, I felt blasphemous. But this is not a discussion for this topic.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

Sometimes I feel the urge to go to Mass just because I like all the ceremonies. But I'm afraid the church might catch fire when I stepped through the door.

Otherwise, I can be bored for an hour and half plenty of other places that don't ask me for money.

Sometimes I feel the urge to go to Mass just because I like all the ceremonies. But I'm afraid the church might catch fire when I stepped through the door.

Otherwise, I can be bored for an hour and half plenty of other places that don't ask me for money.

I even got the cross etched on my forehead with ash and holy water. It itches like hell. I should truly take that as a sign. I was also wondering, because I felt so heavy while in church, if one should ascribe value to rituals. I felt that going through the motions of standing, muttering the prayers, singing, kneeling, sitting and standing again helped, in some way, to alleviate my stress. I think the main problem is that I don't fix any value to what's going on in front, at the altar, my mind wanders. But the ritualistic way of doing things while in church does seems to mean something. I'm not sure what though.

Yes it is a very strange thing to do.

Personally, I only ever go near a church to deploy chemical and biological weaponry nearby.

After all, they are Weapons of Mass Destruction

Also, Baby Cosmic Jewish Zombie cries if you turn up without truly believing.

I even got the cross etched on my forehead with ash and holy water. It itches like hell. I should truly take that as a sign. I was also wondering, because I felt so heavy while in church, if one should ascribe value to rituals. I felt that going through the motions of standing, muttering the prayers, singing, kneeling, sitting and standing again helped, in some way, to alleviate my stress. I think the main problem is that I don't fix any value to what's going on in front, at the altar, my mind wanders. But the ritualistic way of doing things while in church does seems to mean something. I'm not sure what though.

It's a way to make people feel closer to their faith. Taken in that context, it's no bad thing, and is in fact quite a beautiful ceremony. Don't read into it any more than that however. It has no other meaning than in the hearts of the participants. *nod*

It's a way to make people feel closer to their faith. Taken in that context, it's no bad thing, and is in fact quite a beautiful ceremony.

It is beautiful. The candles burning, the images on the sides, the people singing in unison to the priest's benediction. I missed that, but only because when I was a little girl it was such an integral part of my formation.

Don't read into it any more than that however. It has no other meaning than in the hearts of the participants. *nod*

You're right, but I don't ascribe meaning to it anymore. :)

I'm actually at a religious conflict myself. I've recently been asked to be Godfather to my niece, and yet one of the condition is that I go to church...and even though I am an ass, I do have some morality still left in me, and I just don't feel right going to a service if I don't believe in the message. So I'm pondering about that right now.

Either be the Godfather but be a hypocrite
Turn down Godfather and have the family wondering if I'm a Satan worshiper.

Maybe you dont feel religiuos or you "don't fix any value to what's going on" yet.
If you want to have faith; you already have faith. (even if you can't realize it)

If you don't believe, then why engage in a personal and public lie about belief such as going to church and receiving a visible mark, so to speak, of belief?

I'm actually at a religious conflict myself. I've recently been asked to be Godfather to my niece, and yet one of the condition is that I go to church...and even though I am an ass, I do have some morality still left in me, and I just don't feel right going to a service if I don't believe in the message. So I'm pondering about that right now.

Either be the Godfather but be a hypocrite
Turn down Godfather and have the family wondering if I'm a Satan worshiper.

I'm not feeling any religious conflict. I just wonder about the reason why, if I don't consider myself Catholic, I went to church at noon. I think I got past that a few years ago.

As for your own conflict all I can say follow what your heart dictates. Forget about your family's opinion.

I'm actually at a religious conflict myself. I've recently been asked to be Godfather to my niece, and yet one of the condition is that I go to church...and even though I am an ass, I do have some morality still left in me, and I just don't feel right going to a service if I don't believe in the message. So I'm pondering about that right now.

Either be the Godfather but be a hypocrite
Turn down Godfather and have the family wondering if I'm a Satan worshiper.
Or, explain that while you love her immensely and would like to be a part of her moral upbringing, you are no longer a practicing Christian and in good faith cannot accept.

Are your family not close enough to you that they don't know you're a practicing Wiccan? Or are they asking you in an attempt to get you to go back to church?

If you don't believe, then why engage in a personal and public lie about belief such as going to church and receiving a visible mark, so to speak, of belief?

I wonder about that myself.

Either be the Godfather but be a hypocrite
Turn down Godfather and have the family wondering if I'm a Satan worshiper.

I think they've made you an offer you can't refuse

I'm not feeling any religious conflict. I just wonder about the reason why, if I don't consider myself Catholic, I went to church at noon. I think I got past that a few years ago.

As for your own conflict all I can say follow what your heart dictates. Forget about your family's opinion.

Maybe it's just out of habit? There's a line in Dogma where Loki and the last Saigon were talking about why people go to Church, and I think Loki said that people go to Church because they're bored.

My gf is Catholic and i told her i could hook her up with some ashes to the forehead but all that i had on hand was my cremated cat. She called me sick and disturbed.

Maybe it's just out of habit? There's a line in Dogma where Loki and the last Saigon were talking about why people go to Church, and I think Loki said that people go to Church because they're bored.

Habit? It used to part of my school life, yes. But I've been out of high school since 1998 and done with college since '04. Maybe, maybe there's something left of my naivité still.

In an uncharacteristical move, I decided to go to church today for Ash Wednesday.

Ahah! Here it's still Carnival, till Saturday! :D:D:D

(we're clearly holier. we need less Lent)

Habit? It used to part of my school life, yes. But I've been out of high school since 1998 and done with college since '04. Maybe, maybe there's something left of my naivité still.
Well, or maybe... you've had some emotional rollercoasters lately, and are looking for something that feels familiar and safe.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?
Not really, you're going for the same reason most people go to church - to be in the community.

Well, or maybe... you've had some emotional rollercoasters lately, and are looking for something that feels familiar and safe.

That too. Have you done this too, Kat?

In an uncharacteristical move, I decided to go to church today for Ash Wednesday. I was listening (or half-listening) to the priest and the people singing, and I became heavy. Not only that, I felt blasphemous. But this is not a discussion for this topic.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

I believe the saying I heard once was, "Give us a child by the light of a candle, and we'll give you a Catholic for life..."

I believe the saying I heard once was, "Give us a child by the light of a candle, and we'll give you a Catholic for life..."

I always thought that saying was "Give us a child by the light of a candle, because the power is out and there is nothing better to do."

I always thought that saying was "Give us a child by the light of a candle, because the power is out and there is nothing better to do."

There might be something to that.

Not really, you're going for the same reason most people go to church - to be in the community.

I used to go to church so I could count church ceiling tiles. Im sure that wasnt the purpose but thats always what ended up happening anyway.

I used to go to church so I could count church ceiling tiles. Im sure that wasnt the purpose but thats always what ended up happening anyway.

No hot girls in your church, eh?

In regards to church? No, not really. But I have in the past continued doing things because they were safe, familiar habits -- even when I realized they weren't working for me.

I'm sorry, Nanatsu -- you're only human. ;) I don't think there's anything wrong, per se, with doing something communal if it helps you regain your emotional balance and confidence, but since it is making you feel more depressed I would think that church -- at this time, anyhow -- is not for you.

Maybe spend some quality time going out with friends? Take a new class? Go grab some tapas and chat with some cutie? ;)

Here is my take on the lent thing. I use it to serve my purposes.
Last year i gave up communication with an Ex(druggie one) for lent, in the period of 40 days I realized there really wasn't anything to say to her, and any contact would be used by her to get something from me.
And almost as soon as I realize this I get with the Girl I am currently with and I love to Death.Things might not work out with her because of distance but it wont be the painful long drawn out experience of the last Ex.

Was God involved in this? I don't know but I do not find the concept of god to be describable and i don't find any religious with a monopoly on god.

I even got the cross etched on my forehead with ash and holy water. It itches like hell. I should truly take that as a sign.Witch! Witch!
:P

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?Nah. You can just enjoy the ceremony for it's own sake, or the sense of community, or any number of other aspects that aren't religious.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

make it a game to see how many times they will serve you communion wine.

Here is my take on the lent thing. I use it to serve my purposes.
Last year i gave up communication with an Ex(druggie one) for lent, in the period of 40 days I realized there really wasn't anything to say to her, and any contact would be used by her to get something from me.
And almost as soon as I realize this I get with the Girl I am currently with and I love to Death.Things might not work out with her because of distance but it wont be the painful long drawn out experience of the last Ex.

Was God involved in this? I don't know but I do not find the concept of god to be describable and i don't find any religious with a monopoly on god.
Right. Because not talking to your druggie ex was a sacrifice on your part.
:rolleyes:

I think you kind of missed the purpose of Lent, or just use it as an excuse to do what you've decided to do anyhow.

In an uncharacteristical move, I decided to go to church today for Ash Wednesday. I was listening (or half-listening) to the priest and the people singing, and I became heavy. Not only that, I felt blasphemous. But this is not a discussion for this topic.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

Not at all, after all, this represents half the people that go to church anyway, at least in Britain.

Right. Because not talking to your druggie ex was a sacrifice on your part.
:rolleyes:

I think you kind of missed the purpose of Lent, or just use it as an excuse to do what you've decided to do anyhow.

From a physiological point of view my Ex had become a Vice or even an addiction.
We would sleep together. then she would go off a druggie spree, then Id try to help her, She would throw it in my face. Id try to leave and she would show up crying about how she thought i was the only one that could save her, then the cycle repeated again.

and keep in mind i am not catholic or even christian, So my purpose for lent is to give up something for 40 days that doing so would likely make my life better. This year i gave up junk food for lent.

I think that, despite perhaps not believing in the events of the Lenten season, that a reminder that one is mortal, “from dust you are and to dust you shall return” and all, isn’t a bad thing to spend some time reflecting on. Furthermore dedicating a period of time towards working on one’s shortcomings, or working to be a better person (my mother always discouraged me from “giving up” something for Lent, and encouraged me to “do something more” instead) is something that renews us as humans, either through a personal philosophy or a faith or as a simple desire for self-improvement.

You don’t need to believe in a virgin birth-to-resurrection story to gain (or give) from that. It seems to be something that crosses a lot of cultures. For those of us whose secular culture doesn’t have that period of reflection we might easily look towards our faith traditions for it, regardless of whether we subscribe to the tenets of that faith or not. There’s no reason that it needs to happen during Lent, or Ramadan, or whathaveyou, but it’s a convenient touchstone if you’re familiar with it.

From a physiological point of view my Ex had become a Vice or even an addiction.
We would sleep together. then she would go off a druggie spree, then Id try to help her, She would throw it in my face. Id try to leave and she would show up crying about how she thought i was the only one that could save her, then the cycle repeated again.

and keep in mind i am not catholic or even christian, So my purpose for lent is to give up something for 40 days that doing so would likely make my life better. This year i gave up junk food for lent.
Ah, so you're doing it in a purely secular way...

Well, I suppose whatever works...

I'm actually at a religious conflict myself. I've recently been asked to be Godfather to my niece, and yet one of the condition is that I go to church...Just for the baptism, I assume? Not regularly, I hope.

and even though I am an ass, I do have some morality still left in me, and I just don't feel right going to a service if I don't believe in the message.Well, I suppose it would be honest to explain that the only significance of the ceremony to you would (I presume) be the promise to be a (good) godfather. But I don't see a problem with going through a ritual that doesn't mean something to you personally. And it would not be merely humoring them, but recognizing that it means something to them. That has some significance. (Imo)

To the person who said most people go to church for the "community":

I sure as hell don't. I mean, the people of the parish are great, but I don't go to Mass to be with them..

I'm at Mass every week to take part in the re-Presentation of the Holy Sacrifice made on Calvary, to adore Jesus via the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and to join my prayers to the prayers of others.

Community is important in its own right, of course, but it's not the reason I'd attend Mass on Ash Wednesday or any other day for that matter.

People for whom the main reason for going to church is "community" are called Protestants ;)

In an uncharacteristical move, I decided to go to church today for Ash Wednesday. I was listening (or half-listening) to the priest and the people singing, and I became heavy. Not only that, I felt blasphemous. But this is not a discussion for this topic.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

Yes. Either you believe or you don't. If you believe then you should go to Church and get dirt put on your forehead. I'm sure that will solve the financial crisis, end hunger and hasten the onset of world peace.

Yeah, right.

If you don't believe, then I strongly suggest you join the rest of us that have openly declared our rejection of religion and refrain from participating in its silly rituals.

Ah, so you're doing it in a purely secular way...

Well, I suppose whatever works...

lets say mostly secular.

I kinda view it as getting support from god in whatever i am giving up.

In regards to church? No, not really. But I have in the past continued doing things because they were safe, familiar habits -- even when I realized they weren't working for me.

Yeah, I guess that in this it was just some reminisence of a past habit.

I'm sorry, Nanatsu -- you're only human. ;) I don't think there's anything wrong, per se, with doing something communal if it helps you regain your emotional balance and confidence, but since it is making you feel more depressed I would think that church -- at this time, anyhow -- is not for you.

It wasn't really depressing, being in church and all that, just a bit shocking that some 'strange' thoughts were going through my mind. I even went on and substituted the name of Jesus for someone else's. Wrong. LOL!:tongue:

Maybe spend some quality time going out with friends? Take a new class? Go grab some tapas and chat with some cutie? ;)

A nice night out with "la peña" from this side of the pond may help. I'll see what I can do about that.

Yes. Either you believe or you don't. If you believe then you should go to Church and get dirt put on your forehead. I'm sure that will solve the financial crisis, end hunger and hasten the onset of world peace.

Yeah, right.

If you don't believe, then I strongly suggest you join the rest of us that have openly declared our rejection of religion and refrain from participating in its silly rituals.

I seriously believe you should take your own counsel. I smell bitterness a mile away and I have never even seen you post here before.

In an uncharacteristical move, I decided to go to church today for Ash Wednesday. I was listening (or half-listening) to the priest and the people singing, and I became heavy. Not only that, I felt blasphemous. But this is not a discussion for this topic.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

I went, got my ashes, and went back about my day. The whole thing took 30 minutes for me. I observe lent and the lord in my life as much as I can remember to.

In an uncharacteristical move, I decided to go to church today for Ash Wednesday. I was listening (or half-listening) to the priest and the people singing, and I became heavy. Not only that, I felt blasphemous. But this is not a discussion for this topic.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

To be less glib:

1. Why did you go in the first place?

2. What did the priest say?

3. No really, it's probably important to know why you felt blasphemous.

4. Did you ever feel religious during your life?

Yes. Either you believe or you don't. If you believe then you should go to Church and get dirt put on your forehead. I'm sure that will solve the financial crisis, end hunger and hasten the onset of world peace.

Yeah, right.

If you don't believe, then I strongly suggest you join the rest of us that have openly declared our rejection of religion and refrain from participating in its silly rituals.
Ohhh, someone's feeling feisty. Be a good newbie and try not to flamebait next time, dearie.

Its your catholic guilt complex that was bred into you at an early age.


Silence it with lots of hot, steamy, filthy premarital sex. The kinkier it is, the longer said guilt complex will stay silent.

I seriously believe you should take your own counsel. I smell bitterness a mile away and I have never even seen you post here before.

I do take my own council and I'm not bitter at all. After years of walking a tightrope I've arrived at an intellectual decision to be open and honest about my conclusions about religion.

I'm simply suggesting that you do the same.

Either you believe or you don't. If you believe, then you should be going to church a lot more often than Ash Wednesday. If you don't, then you shouldn't be going at all.

You asked for an opinion and I gave it to you. Feel free not to agree with it.

To be less glib:

1. Why did you go in the first place?
A nagging feeling, that made me go. I had a jumble of things in my mind, vamos, a clusterfuck and for some reason I expected going to church to work soothe me. Hence why I made the reference to the "ritualistic feel" of all I was doing and the heaviness I felt.

2. What did the priest say?
Just the Lenten benedictions.

3. No really, it's probably important to know why you felt blasphemous.
Blasphemous not in the way of spouting venom at God or the like. Blasphemous in the fact that I kept substituting the name of Jesus or the name of God on the songs with the name of someone.

4. Did you ever feel religious during your life?
I did, when I was a teen. I even, for a time, considered becoming a nun. Short lived, but I had the desire at one point.

Bolded answers.

I did, when I was a teen. I even, for a time, considered becoming a nun. Short lived, but I had the desire at one point.

Bolded answers.

Did you go to confession? How long has it been?

You obviously were pretty Catholic for a large part of your youth, and I bet it strongly influenced you at at emotional level.

That's not altogether a bad thing (although some may say it's terribly stupid and evil).

Maybe part of you wants to have some of the church back in your life, and you need to find a way to make a compromise with that part of you.

There is no god. Period.

There is no god. Period.

Proof? Linky.

Bolded answers.

Nanatsu as a nun :eek:

There is no god. Period.

Thank God. :)

Did you go to confession? How long has it been?

You obviously were pretty Catholic for a large part of your youth, and I bet it strongly influenced you at at emotional level.

That's not altogether a bad thing (although some may say it's terribly stupid and evil).

Maybe part of you wants to have some of the church back in your life, and you need to find a way to make a compromise with that part of you.

No, i didn't and I haven't been to confession since age 18. I didn't partake in Communion either, it didn't feel right to. I just allowed myself to get the ashen cross on my forehead.

I do wonder about the part the church played while I was growing up. I thought that as soon as I finished high school I would never go back to church. As a teen, and after deciding against being a nun (as hard as that may be to believe), I just decided I was done with it all.

Nanatsu as a nun :eek:

Yes, Nanatsu did think about becoming one. Briefly, but yes.

Yes, Nanatsu did think about becoming one. Briefly, but yes.

did you ever try on the outfit ???

did you ever try on the outfit ???

No, I didn't, but I did went for orientation and even considered which orders I could enter.

No, I didn't, but I did went for orientation and even considered which orders I could enter.

wow... i could see you hitting snot nose kids with rulers for running in the halls.

I was slightly confused as to all the folk walking around campus today with dirty marks on their foreheads, then I remembered.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?
I think it's kinda disrespectful, as long as you don't have any belief, intention of sincerly taking on board the message being spoken. It's the reason I don't go to the kirk on Christmas, much to my family's chagrin.

That said, it's not the biggest deal in the world.


There is no god. Period.
Source?

There is no god. Period.
Merriam Webster's would disagree.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

So would myriad others.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/god
http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~hallgren/wget.cgi?god
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/god
http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-cobuild/god

et cetera.....

No, i didn't and I haven't been to confession since age 18. I didn't partake in Communion either, it didn't feel right to. I just allowed myself to get the ashen cross on my forehead.

I do wonder about the part the church played while I was growing up. I thought that as soon as I finished high school I would never go back to church. As a teen, and after deciding against being a nun (as hard as that may be to believe), I just decided I was done with it all.

You can decide all you like. If, as a child, you ever use religion as a source of emotional comfort, it sticks with you.

There are studies that show that children are naturally inclined to believe in God, and even if never told of one, will manufacture one. This makes them easy to indoctrinate.

Even if you know this, if you were indoctrinated as a child, it's going to be there, inside you.

You're not completely done with it. Not that you're going to run off and become the Singing Nun or anything - but part of you still likes it, and feels guilty for having been gone.

I think it's kinda disrespectful, as long as you don't have any belief, intention of sincerly taking on board the message being spoken. It's the reason I don't go to the kirk on Christmas, much to my family's chagrin.

That said, it's not the biggest deal in the world.

I know it's not the biggest deal in the world, but I did feel like a hypocrite at one point.

Yes, Nanatsu did think about becoming one. Briefly, but yes.

Well, I'm glad you spared us the sadness of not being enlightened by your presence.

You're not completely done with it. Not that you're going to run off and become the Singing Nun or anything - but part of you still likes it, and feels guilty for having been gone.

That last part you mention, in itself, is what I fear.

There is no god. Period.

This thread has introduced to my dying the mind the image of Nanatsu no Tsuki in a nun's outfit.

So, either there is a God, or else a capricious whim of fate so kind as to ease my passing into madness with such a simultaneously consoling and thrilling image that I shall give it the same gratitude I would offer in prayer to a God.

That last part you mention, in itself, is what I fear.

Why fear it?

In an uncharacteristical move, I decided to go to church today for Ash Wednesday. I was listening (or half-listening) to the priest and the people singing, and I became heavy. Not only that, I felt blasphemous. But this is not a discussion for this topic.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?
no its not wrong.

sometimes a person likes that nostalgia of beliefs and rituals that they used to subscribe to.

and its not like they only want true believers to show up.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

Depends how bored you are.

I'm actually at a religious conflict myself. I've recently been asked to be Godfather to my niece, and yet one of the condition is that I go to church...and even though I am an ass, I do have some morality still left in me, and I just don't feel right going to a service if I don't believe in the message. So I'm pondering about that right now.

Either be the Godfather but be a hypocrite
Turn down Godfather and have the family wondering if I'm a Satan worshiper.
you should level with the parents and let them decide if they still want you as godfather.

Why fear it?

Because as much as I say I'm an agnostic, for abandoning the dogma, I feel there is, in the end, haevenly retribution. This may sound stupid, but being there, staring at the Mater Dolorosa on a corner, made me terrified.

you should level with the parents and let them decide if they still want you as godfather.

Could be worse. Wilgrove could be orchestrating the death of Barzini, Tatalia, all the heads of the five families...then he'd be a real hypocrite to go through with it.

This thread has introduced to my dying the mind the image of Nanatsu no Tsuki in a nun's outfit.

So, either there is a God, or else a capricious whim of fate so kind as to ease my passing into madness with such a simultaneously consoling and thrilling image that I shall give it the same gratitude I would offer in prayer to a God.

You are, my dear Ghost, quite a naughty thinker.:wink:

Because as much as I say I'm an agnostic, for abandoning the dogma, I feel there is, in the end, haevenly retribution. This may sound stupid, but being there, staring at the Mater Dolorosa on a corner, made me terrified.

Well, I am almost in the same position as you. I am Catholic and follow my faith, but I am not locked into believing it is the only way. They tell me to be a true Catholic I must do so. I think there are very many paths to God and that both heaven and hell are very real. I choose to focus more on the life and teaching of Jesus rather than simply the dogmatic procedures the church has conjured up for me.

Because as much as I say I'm an agnostic, for abandoning the dogma, I feel there is, in the end, haevenly retribution. This may sound stupid, but being there, staring at the Mater Dolorosa on a corner, made me terrified.

If you actually believe, there isn't any retribution for those who accept Christ as their Savior.

I'm not saying you have to become some cross-waving nun-on-a-crusade, but I doubt that God expects a perfect Catholic, either.

If it makes you happy in some way to come to some compromise between agnosticism and belief, happy is always good.

I know it's not the biggest deal in the world, but I did feel like a hypocrite at one point.
I fully understand; I feel the same.

Not taking communion is a good move.

You are, my dear Ghost, quite a naughty thinker.:wink:

I don't know, but nun is not a real turn on for me. Nurse, schoolgirl, teacher, officer will do the trick. Nun, not so much.

Because as much as I say I'm an agnostic, for abandoning the dogma, I feel there is, in the end, haevenly retribution. This may sound stupid, but being there, staring at the Mater Dolorosa on a corner, made me terrified.

Even though I'm agnostic and don't believe in any particular god, I went to a local mosque last year, hoping they could teach me how to ask Allah to cure me.

It was only sitting there, talking with a very nice mullah (sic?) fellow, that I realized I had some very not halal pepperoni digesting in my stomach. I strangely felt bad about it.

They gave me a really nice translation of the Koran that I read some of. I could never get myself to hear Allah, but I tried.

I was slightly confused as to all the folk walking around campus today with dirty marks on their foreheads, then I remembered.


i live in a majority hispanic town in new mexico. that means that it is about 50% practicing catholic.

when i first moved here i was putting gas in the car one day when a man came over to me and asked if there was some kind of cult in this town because he kept seeing people with a big black smudge in the middle of their forehead. it took me a moment to realize that it was ash wednesday and this poor soul must have come from a catholicless area of the country.

Well, I am almost in the same position as you. I am Catholic and follow my faith, but I am not locked into believing it is the only way.

Neither am I, but sometimes the images of the Beatus I studied for Medieval art haunt me. Especially if I go to church.

They tell me to be a true Catholic I must do so. I think there are very many paths to God and that both heaven and hell are very real. I choose to focus more on the life and teaching of Jesus rather than simply the dogmatic procedures the church has conjured up for me.

I do believe that when one walks into a cathedral, the scope and care and art applied to these structures, would really make one believe a God (the God) resides within those walls. An erroneous way of looking at this, I know. But walking into the very structure, even without believing the message (something that I know is wrong too) I can belive, for a second or 2, that I am walking into the embrace of a deity.

Because as much as I say I'm an agnostic, for abandoning the dogma, I feel there is, in the end, haevenly retribution. This may sound stupid, but being there, staring at the Mater Dolorosa on a corner, made me terrified.
You know, you can still believe without all the trappings of ritual....
Matthew 6:5 5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

And I find myself agreeing with Hotwife's assessment. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14550387&postcount=72

If you actually believe, there isn't any retribution for those who accept Christ as their Savior.

I'm not saying you have to become some cross-waving nun-on-a-crusade, but I doubt that God expects a perfect Catholic, either.

If it makes you happy in some way to come to some compromise between agnosticism and belief, happy is always good.

I think tis the season to consider these things. It is. I'll just ponder them some more.

You know, you can still believe without all the trappings of ritual....
Matthew 6:5

Familiar message, I heard it today, read by the priest. As I told Hotwife, I think this is the time, especially this time, to consider where I am and if a return to some of my roots will do me well.

i live in a majority hispanic town in new mexico. that means that it is about 50% practicing catholic.

when i first moved here i was putting gas in the car one day when a man came over to me and asked if there was some kind of cult in this town because he kept seeing people with a big black smudge in the middle of their forehead. it took me a moment to realize that it was ash wednesday and this poor soul must have come from a catholicless area of the country.

Decatholated?

You should have told him "Don't you know? The time of the crucible of hell's tears is at hand, and the third eye of blackness marks the redeemers in the hour of the harvesting. That's why I'm buying gasoline. Have you kissed the knee of Nyarlathahotep? You should do it now, in eight minutes it will be too late."

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

It's never absurd to go to church on any day, for any reason. Besides, I would rather see someone who doesn't follow the precepts of a religion in church, then the same old smiles wearing ties you see every week,

Decatholated?

You should have told him "Don't you know? The time of the crucible of hell's tears is at hand, and the third eye of blackness marks the redeemers in the hour of the harvesting. That's why I'm buying gasoline. Have you kissed the knee of Nyarlathahotep? You should do it now, in eight minutes it will be too late."
lol

it was shocking enough to talk to a stranger! im not quick enough to take the piss at the same time.

You know, you can still believe without all the trappings of ritual....
Matthew 6:5

Uh huh...this from a woman who once garotted the spotter on her own counter-sniper team with a rosary bead because he didn't genuflect properly during a mass.

Uh huh...this from a woman who once garotted the spotter on her own counter-sniper team with a rosary bead because he didn't genuflect properly during a mass.

There are so few opportunities to work the word 'genuflect' into a conversation.

Could be worse. Wilgrove could be orchestrating the death of Barzini, Tatalia, all the heads of the five families...and the father of the child he was standing Godfather for; then he'd be a real hypocrite to go through with it.
Fixed.
I'm "godfather" to my nephew, although everybody knows I am non-Christian and indeed rather anti-Christian. The parents thought I would give good spiritual guidance to him anyway.
I was listening (or half-listening) to the priest and the people singing, and I became heavy.
I am curious as to what that idiom means to you. Obviously not "I gained weight" (that would be more likely to happen on the Tuesday!) or "I started speaking ultra-seriously" (wow, man, you're gettin really heavy!). I can sort of guess what you mean, but I am curious what your idiom is.

There are so few opportunities to work the word 'genuflect' into a conversation.

Without inserting the word "blowjob".

Fixed.
I'm "godfather" to my nephew, although everybody knows I am non-Christian and indeed rather anti-Christian. The parents thought I would give good spiritual guidance to him anyway.

Oh, shit, yeah, good point...I was going off Michael's lines at the funeral, but having whatzisface strangled in the car after being godfather to the guy's kid, that was...well, I guess like having your brother shot in the back of the head in a rowboat.


I am curious as to what that idiom means to you. Obviously not "I gained weight" (that would be more likely to happen on the Tuesday!) or "I started speaking ultra-seriously" (wow, man, you're gettin really heavy!). I can sort of guess what you mean, but I am curious what your idiom is.

Nanatsu has a mutant power that allows her to perturb space-time in such a way as to create localized increases in gravity. When she gets all spiritual, she gets heavy.

I even got the cross etched on my forehead with ash and holy water. It itches like hell. I should truly take that as a sign. I was also wondering, because I felt so heavy while in church, if one should ascribe value to rituals. I felt that going through the motions of standing, muttering the prayers, singing, kneeling, sitting and standing again helped, in some way, to alleviate my stress. I think the main problem is that I don't fix any value to what's going on in front, at the altar, my mind wanders. But the ritualistic way of doing things while in church does seems to mean something. I'm not sure what though.

I actually find this quite interesting.

I'm not a big believer in getting visions or signs or angelic visitations as often as people claim to have them. However, while I was an agnostic, I would suffer splitting headaches while in church. I also received them on the two occasions that I visited a synagogue during that time. I jokingly would suggest to myself that these were signs that I should reconvert.

However, when I actually did reconvert, the headaches subsided, though I do get light ones occasionally when I space out during a homily, or don't pay attention to the readings.

It does kind of seem like the ritualistic ecclesiastical environment of a Catholic Mass has some deeper meaning.

The Catholic traditions of the Mass are not at all random or of any sort of means for control. The traditions have SCRIPTURAL meaning in everything that is done. All that sitting, standing, kneeling? Actually theres a reason for that. The holy water and the holy ash? Theres a history behind them too, both filled with supernatural events surrounding them.
If you feel left out during a Church service, it is likely because your soul has some reserve about being there. In order to make an accurate judgement, one must clear that impediment. I invite you to learn from trustworthy sources before forming an opinion.
The rituals aren't trappings but methods offered to give praise to God. Just as Jesus commanded us to pray The Lords Prayer. Would you call that a trap as well?

Uh huh...this from a woman who once garotted the spotter on her own counter-sniper team with a rosary bead because he didn't genuflect properly during a mass.
Well, if you're going to observe the rituals, then observe them RIGHT, damn it.

Because as much as I say I'm an agnostic, for abandoning the dogma, I feel there is, in the end, haevenly retribution. This may sound stupid, but being there, staring at the Mater Dolorosa on a corner, made me terrified.

Fearing the faith is never a good sign. I reccomend making some changes in your apparently agnostic life to change that inexpicable fear to inexpiclabel joy. Don't take advice from us posters. Your heart knows the truth.

The Catholic traditions of the Mass are not at all random or of any sort of means for control. The traditions have SCRIPTURAL meaning in everything that is done. All that sitting, standing, kneeling? Actually theres a reason for that. The holy water and the holy ash? Theres a history behind them too, both filled with supernatural events surrounding them.
If you feel left out during a Church service, it is likely because your soul has some reserve about being there. In order to make an accurate judgement, one must clear that impediment. I invite you to learn from trustworthy sources before forming an opinion.
The rituals aren't trappings but methods offered to give praise to God. Just as Jesus commanded us to pray The Lords Prayer. Would you call that a trap as well?
No, but we are also called to not make a huge deal publicly about our faith either -- so if the ritual and public nature of the mass bothers her, then praying privately may work better for her.

I have unfortunately been to parishes where appearance = all and people argued about how they were spiritually superior to others there; obviously, in those places, the ritual replaced the REAL reason they ought to have been there -- communion with God, not personal and public aggrandizement.

However, when I actually did reconvert, the headaches subsided, though I do get light ones occasionally when I space out during a homily, or don't pay attention to the readings.

It does kind of seem like the ritualistic ecclesiastical environment of a Catholic Mass has some deeper meaning.

God works in mysterious ways...

No, but we are also called to not make a huge deal publicly about our faith either -- so if the ritual and public nature of the mass bothers her, then praying privately may work better for her.

I have unfortunately been to parishes where appearance = all and people argued about how they were spiritually superior to others there; obviously, in those places, the ritual replaced the REAL reason they ought to have been there -- communion with God, not personal and public aggrandizement.

Indeed which is why you will hardly ever walk into a Catholic Church and see people screaming prayers outloud. However, Christ said that wherever two people come together in prayer, so too will He be there. Indeed, private prayer is vital to a close relationship with God- but also may I offer her another option of learned the meaning behind the rituals so as to participate more fully and see if that works.

Unfortunately, so have I. Those people are quite mistaken and by no means do they represent the Faith. I urge anyone with a grain of intelligence to consider the fact that these views represented by "better-than-you" "believers" do not at all represent the Catholic Church. Period.

Indeed which is why you will hardly ever walk into a Catholic Church and see people screaming prayers outloud. However, Christ said that wherever two people come together in prayer, so too will He be there. Indeed, private prayer is vital to a close relationship with God- but also may I offer her another option of learned the meaning behind the rituals so as to participate more fully and see if that works.

Unfortunately, so have I. Those people are quite mistaken and by no means do they represent the Faith. I urge anyone with a grain of intelligence to consider the fact that these views represented by "better-than-you" "believers" do not at all represent the Catholic Church. Period.
Perhaps you missed the part where I said in those places?

Also, Matthew 6.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said in those places?

Also, Matthew 6.

I didn't miss it and I certainly wasn't attacking you. Its just I've talked to many people who've held a wrong opinion against the Church for those reasons and I wanted to clarify that. I want to commend you for not taking that view and for adjusting your view to include mislead catholics. THANK YOU haha.

Yeah, I think we can both agree that neither practice of faith is WRONG, but neither can maintain a full relationship with Christ without the other. Their partners, not two options.

I would say just keep an open mind and see where it leads. There in nothing wrong with exploring faith. There is a sense of community and sense of belonging when you go to church. It is a good place to start. Next thing you know you are back to going full time. In New York they had a special church for people who feel like they have strayed from the faith, St. Sebastians anyway it was kind of cool they have the lastest mass that I am aware of in the area 6:00PM on Sunday and of course various other time during the week. That how I got back in as for a long while I worked nights and was unable to get to go to church early. I of course had fallen away for various other reasons but this I felt made it easier. It is really strange how faith works what is important in your 20's falls away when you reach your 30's and 40's even more so. See where it takes you.

I think they've made you an offer you can't refuse

Are you the self appointed bad joke maker of NSG or something?

Are you the self appointed bad joke maker of NSG or something?

*Shakes magic 8 ball*

The signs point to yes

In an uncharacteristical move, I decided to go to church today for Ash Wednesday. I was listening (or half-listening) to the priest and the people singing, and I became heavy. Not only that, I felt blasphemous. But this is not a discussion for this topic.

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?

I sang Mass this evening (Byrd's Mass for four voices). Not that I'm religious, I just enjoy singing religious music, and I only go to church to listen to a choir...

I do believe that when one walks into a cathedral, the scope and care and art applied to these structures, would really make one believe a God (the God) resides within those walls. An erroneous way of looking at this, I know. But walking into the very structure, even without believing the message (something that I know is wrong too) I can belive, for a second or 2, that I am walking into the embrace of a deity.

...or to admire the architecture. Not that I ascribe any deity to the building, just a beautiful creation by man.

God works in mysterious ways...

He does indeed.

I actually find this quite interesting.

I'm not a big believer in getting visions or signs or angelic visitations as often as people claim to have them. However, while I was an agnostic, I would suffer splitting headaches while in church. I also received them on the two occasions that I visited a synagogue during that time. I jokingly would suggest to myself that these were signs that I should reconvert.

However, when I actually did reconvert, the headaches subsided, though I do get light ones occasionally when I space out during a homily, or don't pay attention to the readings.

It does kind of seem like the ritualistic ecclesiastical environment of a Catholic Mass has some deeper meaning.

It does has a meaning. More in the sense of lulling people into a trance. I think that's what happened. I think that was the sense of heaviness I felt. I felt like there was a huge weight in my shoulders, everything was slower, more subdued, as I were caught up in a huge sea of heavy water. It was like trying to swim through glue. I felt like I had millions of beings strapped to my back. I kept swaying on my feet, my eyes wanted to just close. It was a weird feeling and it got me thinking.

I sang Mass this evening (Byrd's Mass for four voices). Not that I'm religious, I just enjoy singing religious music, and I only go to church to listen to a choir...

I do that when I'm back in Asturias.

...or to admire the architecture. Not that I ascribe any deity to the building, just a beautiful creation by man.

That, indeed, is true too. But today it felt like I was walking right into the embrace of a deity... or someone important to me.

I do that when I'm back in Asturias.

I'm going to be singing in a cathedral next year, in fact. It's nice to get paid to do something you love.

That, indeed, is true too. But today it felt like I was walking right into the embrace of a deity... or someone important to me.

Fair enough. I sometimes get this deep feeling of familiarity with church services, this is due to being taken to church weekly when I was younger. As such, I find churches lovely places to explore and feel at ease inside.

It does has a meaning. More in the sense of lulling people into a trance. I think that's what happened. I think that was the sense of heaviness I felt. I felt like there was a huge weight in my shoulders, everything was slower, more subdued, as I were caught up in a huge sea of heavy water. It was like trying to swim through glue. I felt like I had millions of beings strapped to my back. I kept swaying on my feet, my eyes wanted to just close. It was a weird feeling and it got me thinking.

Aye. I've felt similar weight in the shoulders on occasion, but always attributed it to the fact that my chapel of choice has poor air conditioning in the summer. Nonetheless, it is indeed an experience worthy of thought. I also find your comparison of the sensation to a trance intriguing.

I'm going to be singing in a cathedral next year, in fact. It's nice to get paid to do something you love.

Tell me about it. But in my case, my job, although I love it, almost cost me my sanity.

Fair enough. I sometimes get this deep feeling of familiarity with church services, this is due to being taken to church weekly when I was younger. As such, I find churches loving places to explore and feel at ease inside.

When I was younger, I think between 17-18, I used to fantasize that I was this marble angel, gathering dust for centuries, in the corner of an ancient cathedral. Seemingly lost.

Perhaps because I've been going through a lot of changes lately, I am reverting to some practices that used to keep me "centered". Not that I will become a devout Catholic. No, it's not about that. But it felt strange to go in, a bit comforting, blasphemous and utterly hypocritical of me, all at the same time.

Aye. I've felt similar weight in the shoulders on occasion, but always attributed it to the fact that my chapel of choice has poor air conditioning in the summer. Nonetheless, it is indeed an experience worthy of thought. I also find your comparison of the sensation to a trance intriguing.

Religion, and I'm sure you know this, has that trance-like quality. The very rituals of the Catholic Church have that property. Of course, I am easily lulled into trance. Music does the trick too.

Religion, and I'm sure you know this, has that trance-like quality. The very rituals of the Catholic Church have that property. Of course, I am easily lulled into trance. Music does the trick too.

It does indeed. Especially when saying an Ave Maria or Paternoster in unison. In fact, I think it might have something to do with performing the same actions along with the rest of the congregation.

I even got the cross etched on my forehead with ash and holy water. It itches like hell. I should truly take that as a sign. I was also wondering, because I felt so heavy while in church, if one should ascribe value to rituals. I felt that going through the motions of standing, muttering the prayers, singing, kneeling, sitting and standing again helped, in some way, to alleviate my stress. I think the main problem is that I don't fix any value to what's going on in front, at the altar, my mind wanders. But the ritualistic way of doing things while in church does seems to mean something. I'm not sure what though.

I hate to admit it but sometimes when I am saying the rituals it sometimes feels like i'm in a cult.

It does indeed. Especially when saying an Ave Maria or Paternoster in unison. In fact, I think it might have something to do with performing the same actions along with the rest of the congregation.

Exactly, and although one shouldn't ascribe any value to rituals, they do give a sense of comfort.

It's fun to whisper to Christians, 'I think you have some dirt on your face.'

It's fun to whisper to Christians, 'I think you have some dirt on your face.'

Ok person, please, go back and read the OP.

Kthnxbai.

Ok person, please, go back and read the OP.

Kthnxbai.
I read what the OP wrote. Then I read several more pages and finally made an off topic comment.

But to reply to the topic:
As much as I like to lampoon religion, I'd probably feel a bit too disrespectful about going into church and feigning to be one of them, plus really uncomfortable surrounded by religious people and their rituals. Probably a bit sad too to see them unquestioningly investing themselves in an illusion.

Tell me about it. But in my case, my job, although I love it, almost cost me my sanity.

:( I'm sorry to hear that it had that affect. May I ask what you do?

I'm sorry if its too personal a question. Allow me three guesses:

1. Mathematician Specializing in Cantorian Set Cardinality Theory.
2. Health Care
3. Investigator of the Occult

(The middle one is serious).

:( I'm sorry to hear that it had that affect. May I ask what you do?

I'm sorry if its too personal a question. Allow me three guesses:

1. Mathematician Specializing in Cantorian Set Cardinality Theory.
2. Health Care
3. Investigator of the Occult

(The middle one is serious).

I am currently on a year long sabbatical. That's what I had to do in order to keep my sanity and health together.

As for what I do for a living? I'll tell you one of these days.

It does has a meaning. More in the sense of lulling people into a trance. I think that's what happened. I think that was the sense of heaviness I felt. I felt like there was a huge weight in my shoulders, everything was slower, more subdued, as I were caught up in a huge sea of heavy water. It was like trying to swim through glue. I felt like I had millions of beings strapped to my back. I kept swaying on my feet, my eyes wanted to just close. It was a weird feeling and it got me thinking.
Thanks.

Maybe it's just out of habit? There's a line in Dogma where Loki and the last Saigon were talking about why people go to Church, and I think Loki said that people go to Church because they're bored.

Scion. Not Saigon.

I am currently on a year long sabbatical. That's what I had to do in order to keep my sanity and health together.

As for what I do for a living? I'll tell you one of these days.

I already know, and I'm not keeping your secret.

In 1599, the plague swept through Spain. As inexorable as the winter shortens the days, it cut brief the days of men. The people prayed, and prayed, and prayed, and died.

But in a small village on the northern coast, a young girl would not abide for all she loved to die...so when Death came to her family, she approached...

Death called to her, "Why do you stand here, girl? Its not your time. Go away. You are afforded many days yet, and children. I will see you soon enough."

The girl replied, "You overstay your welcome, Death. This plague is too much."

Said Death, "My Brother Pestilence is hungry. Depart, before he sates himself on you."

Said the girl, "Your Brother is a glutton and our hospitality for you is consumed. You depart."

Pestilence came forward and said "You are mortal, girl. Only gods may command us."

The girl stepped forward. "I am a Goddess. The Goddess of Seven Moons. And I challenge you to a game."

Death and Pestilence laughed, for they had never lost a game. "Choose your game, little goddess. If you win, we'll leave her. If we win, your days are forfeit."

The girl said, "Do you know the game Corazon? From Quintanilla de Arriba?"

Death and Pestilence replied, "Any game you wish. We do not lose. Ever."

The girl smiled and said only "Va!"...but she did not flee. Instead she crossed her hands over her heart, and was still as a statue...

Death and Pestilence waited...and waited...and waited...for rules of the game are binding...and they wait still.

And the girl holds still her heart, to this very day, neither moving forward nor back, trapped in a stillness, waiting to be released from the game...

That is why to this day, the snows in Asturias last for Seven Moons, from late October to early May.

Zion. Not Saigon.

I thought it was Scion.

But Zion makes way more sense than Saigon. The Last Saigon?



Barry Gordy couldn't produce that...

I thought it was Scion.

But Zion makes way more sense than Saigon. The Last Saigon?



Barry Gordy couldn't produce that...

Sorry...you're right. Sarky needs a nap...

That, indeed, is true too. But today it felt like I was walking right into the embrace of a deity... or someone important to me.

Let me do my skeptic bit, first. The reason why 'church' is so popular, is because it's a family that changes, and yet still stays the same. You can drop into this church or that one, and Daddy is always in and always constant, but he acts slightly different in different company. And your brothers and sisters in this house may have different names and faces, but they are still your brothers and sisters - and because of that, maybe even closer than blood.

When you walk into your church, you feel held, and accepted, and home. You're back in the embrace of family, even if you've never been in THAT church before. It helps that all the familiar conversations you remember from home, are repeated in almost the same words. It helps that even the familiar singsong of your 'family' accent, is maintained.

You felt like you were in the arms of someone you love, because you were. You were at home, with your family.

If you want to go to church, you should. If you want to go once a year, you should. Mortal man shouldn't dictate your schedule, and I find it hard to believe that a loving deity would consider it against you that you sometimes came close to him (or her) when you felt the need.


I sometimes attend churches. Not a particular one, although I've visited some several times. It's not hypocrisy to stand in a building designed to make you feel simultaneously insignificantly small, and integral to the machine - and feel comfortable. It's not wrong to seek familiar harbours if you feel like you're being tossed on stormy seas.

And your attention to church shouldn't bring you worry. A Christian relationship doesn't NEED a church, and a church doesn't mean you HAVE TO question your faith.

Also - last thought... you ever feel the difference between empty churches and churches with people in? The temperature difference? The acoustic difference? Churches are made to have people in. You should never feel bad about fulfilling the purpose of the building. :)

My question to the Generalites is as follows: if one doesn't particularly feel religious, if one doesn't follow the precepts of any religion, is it absurd to, just on Ash Wednesday, go to church? If so, why? If not, why?
Yes, it is absurd. Because it is.

I'm just glad that this stupid 5th season is now over for a year.

I already know, and I'm not keeping your secret.

In 1599, the plague swept through Spain. As inexorable as the winter shortens the days, it cut brief the days of men. The people prayed, and prayed, and prayed, and died.

But in a small village on the northern coast, a young girl would not abide for all she loved to die...so when Death came to her family, she approached...

Death called to her, "Why do you stand here, girl? Its not your time. Go away. You are afforded many days yet, and children. I will see you soon enough."

The girl replied, "You overstay your welcome, Death. This plague is too much."

Said Death, "My Brother Pestilence is hungry. Depart, before he sates himself on you."

Said the girl, "Your Brother is a glutton and our hospitality for you is consumed. You depart."

Pestilence came forward and said "You are mortal, girl. Only gods may command us."

The girl stepped forward. "I am a Goddess. The Goddess of Seven Moons. And I challenge you to a game."

Death and Pestilence laughed, for they had never lost a game. "Choose your game, little goddess. If you win, we'll leave her. If we win, your days are forfeit."

The girl said, "Do you know the game Corazon? From Quintanilla de Arriba?"

Death and Pestilence replied, "Any game you wish. We do not lose. Ever."

The girl smiled and said only "Va!"...but she did not flee. Instead she crossed her hands over her heart, and was still as a statue...

Death and Pestilence waited...and waited...and waited...for rules of the game are binding...and they wait still.

And the girl holds still her heart, to this very day, neither moving forward nor back, trapped in a stillness, waiting to be released from the game...

That is why to this day, the snows in Asturias last for Seven Moons, from late October to early May.

With your permission, Toomey-kun, I will post this story of yours on my LiveJournal, and credit you for it.:)

Also - last thought... you ever feel the difference between empty churches and churches with people in? The temperature difference? The acoustic difference? Churches are made to have people in. You should never feel bad about fulfilling the purpose of the building. :)

I will ponder the rest of the things you posted and I'll keep them close to me. I am, this morning, feeling slightly perturbed, in a good way. I think I spoke to someone last night and it may very well have been a pleasant dream. I rested, suspended in time. It was good to do so. It was good to remember his words. I can't think straight, not today. I feel like going back to bed to slumber, that way I will be slumbering like him, existing in tandem with him. Maybe being in Church yesterday put that into perspective. And if it is his doing, then I won't fight it. I will abide.

My apologies for this slight delusion of mine today.

You are right in that last count. Churches are, indeed, made to be filled with people. And because yesterday it was full to the brim, it was comfortably warm, heavy, inviting me to dream.

Follow your instinct Nanatsu. If it makes you feel good, do it. Sometimes my partner goes to Church - the Christmas midnight mass for instance.
Personally, I'm getting more irreligious as a read of the religious bigotry around the world. But there are some lovely religious people also.

Did feel heavy because of Christ's suffering or your own?

I liked your Goddess of the Seven Moons story Sgt Toomey!
Here is one about death and grief from the Buddhists:
Kisagotami and the mustard seed*
Kisagotami, a young woman, was married to the only son of a rich man and they had a male child. The child died when he was two years old.

Kisagotami had intense attachment for the child. She clasped the dead child to her bossom, refused to part with it, and went from house to house, to her friends and relatives, asking them to give some medicine to bring the child back to life.
A Buddhist monk said to her: "O good girl! I have no medicine. But go to Lord Buddha. He can surely give you a very good medicine. He is an ocean of mercy and love. The child will come back to life. Be not troubled".

She at once ran to Buddha and said, "O venerable sir! Can you give any medicine to this child?".
Buddha replied, "Yes. I will give you a very good medicine. Bring some mustard seed from some house where no child or husband or wife or father or mother or servant had died".
She said, "Very good, sir, I shall bring it in a short time".

Carrying her dead child in her bossom, Kisagotami went to a house and asked for some mustard seed.
The people of the house said, "O lady, here is mustard seed. Take it".
Kisagotami asked, "In your house, has any son or husband or wife, father or mother or servant died?".
They replied, "O lady! You ask a very strange question. Many have died in our house".

Kisagotami went to another house and asked the same.
The owner of the house said, "I have lost my eldest son and my wife".
She went to a third house. People of the house answered, "We have lost our parents".
She went to another house. The lady of the house said, "I lost my husband last year".

Ultimately Kisagotami was not able to find a single house where no one had died. Viveka and Vairagya dawned in her mind.
She buried the dead body of her child. She began to reflect seriously on the problem of life and death in this world.

Kisagotami then went to Lord Buddha and prostrated at his lotus feet.
Buddha said to her, "O good girl! Have you brought the mustard seed?".
Kisagotami answered, "I am not able to find a single house where no one has died".

Then Buddha said, "All the objects of this world are perishable and impermanent. This world is full of miseries, troubles and tribulations. Man or woman is troubled by birth, death, disease, old age and pain. We should gain wisdom from experience.
We should not expect for things that do not and will not happen. This expectation leads us to unnecessary misery and suffering. One should obtain Nirvana. Then only all sorrows will come to an end. One will attain immortality and eternal peace".

Kisagotami then became a disciple of Buddha and entered the Order of Nuns.

Did feel heavy because of Christ's suffering or your own?

I'm still not sure why I felt like that. I'm still giving some thought to it. If I finally understand the heaviness, I'll post it.:wink: