US Law degree. Worth anything overseas ? [Archive]

greed and death

25-02-2009, 06:58

Then you may want to research if they specifically accept US law degrees, and in which fields, rather than asking various lawyers with different specialties if random countries around the world accept random law degrees.

NS probably isn't your best bet for a helpful answer.

they do have a different legal system so i already know that's not likely for their domestic law. though if I learn military law I could likely represent US soldiers in court marshals.
I am curious if a lawyer knows other lawyers who practice international law and how that works, aka is living overseas and working for foreign companies an option?
Also is it unheard of as a lawyer to go to school and learn their law system in a foreign country.
Specifics about Korea I will ask on a Korean forum.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 07:03

they do have a different legal system so i already know that's not likely for their domestic law. though if I learn military law I could likely represent US soldiers in court marshals.
I am curious if a lawyer knows other lawyers who practice international law and how that works, aka is living overseas and working for foreign companies an option?
Also is it unheard of as a lawyer to go to school and learn their law system in a foreign country.
Specifics about Korea I will ask on a Korean forum.

You do realize that if you ever plan to return to the US you'll still owe the taxes you were responsible for and the various other bills you would owe.

I find it amusing that you call taking money under the promise of returning it when you're able and then not repaying it "conscientious objection" rather than what it is "theft".

greed and death

25-02-2009, 07:10

You do realize that if you ever plan to return to the US you'll still owe the taxes you were responsible for and the various other bills you would owe.

I find it amusing that you call taking money under the promise of returning it when you're able and then not repaying it "conscientious objection" rather than what it is "theft".

anything under 75,000 is tax exempt to Americans living over seas.
and the IRS has limited means to investigate overseas earnings so Defacto more would be exempt.

Maybe I was being extreme on the loan statement.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 07:12

anything under 75,000 is tax exempt to Americans living over seas.
and the IRS has limited means to investigate overseas earnings so Defacto more would be exempt.

Maybe I was being extreme on the loan statement.

I like how you backpedal about stealing money from the government while admitting that if you make over 75K you'll steal money another way, anyway.

Ignoring for the moment that you admitting that you intend to committ crimes, what is it that your conscience is making you object to?

greed and death

25-02-2009, 07:26

I like how you backpedal about stealing money from the government while admitting that if you make over 75K you'll steal money another way, anyway.

Ignoring for the moment that you admitting that you intend to committ crimes, what is it that your conscience is making you object to?

Can one really break American law while not in the jurisdiction of America ?
As for the loans, pardon my impassioned moment on the loans. Even then My loans are pretty small, most of my tuition has been paid by my Veterans Benefits.

As for the why? If Health care is Nationalized I want no part of it, and not a dime of my tax money to go to it.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 07:32

Can one really break American law while not in the jurisdiction of America ?
As for the loans, pardon my impassioned moment on the loans. Even then My loans are pretty small, most of my tuition has been paid by my Veterans Benefits.

As for the why? If Health care is Nationalized I want no part of it, and not a dime of my tax money to go to it.

I see. So you're fleeing ghosts?

By the by, nationalized health care hasn't been proposed by anyone with enough juice to accomplish it. Obama is proposing making health insurance available to all. Not even requiring people to get it. Just making it available.

Right-o. That's some conscience you got there. Stealing? Sure. Health care for the poor? No way, Jose.

By the by, what othet means of crises management do you feel like shouldn't be under the control of the government? National Guard? Police? Fire?

I don't choose to get cancer any more than I choose to be robbed or for my home to catch fire. One wonders if your conscience finds that those things are accounted for through our taxes equally unconscienable.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 07:54

I see. So you're fleeing ghosts?

By the by, nationalized health care hasn't been proposed by anyone with enough juice to accomplish it. Obama is proposing making health insurance available to all. Not even requiring people to get it. Just making it available.

Right-o. That's some conscience you got there. Stealing? Sure. Health care for the poor? No way, Jose.

By the by, what othet means of crises management do you feel like shouldn't be under the control of the government? National Guard? Police? Fire?

I don't choose to get cancer any more than I choose to be robbed or for my home to catch fire. One wonders if your conscience finds that those things are accounted for through our taxes equally unconscienable.

I do intend to wait and see how he implements what. To me it sounds like he is heading in the direction of a system I will not be a part of. As a free man I have the right to leave. I just wish to have plans so I do not get caught entangled in a system, that may ceased to match my needs and wants.

As for the Tax I doubt I would even have to resort to fraud. It is very easy to legally avoid taxes when you live overseas. Besides If I derive no benefit from that society why should it have claim on my income? A social contract assumes that benefits are two street, by what right should you have to leech from my labor and provide nothing to me in return ?

I object to health care being in government hands and I am fine with the system as is. You want to change it fine then lets vote to change it is a democracy, But you know what else it is ? A free society means I also have the right to leave.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 07:58

I do intend to wait and see how he implements what. To me it sounds like he is heading in the direction of a system I will not be a part of. As a free man I have the right to leave. I just wish to have plans so I do not get caught entangled in a system, that may ceased to match my needs and wants.

As for the Tax I doubt I would even have to resort to fraud. It is very easy to legally avoid taxes when you live overseas. Besides If I derive no benefit from that society why should it have claim on my income? A social contract assumes that benefits are two street, by what right should you have to leech from my labor and provide nothing to me in return ?

I object to health care being in government hands and I am fine with the system as is. You want to change it fine then lets vote to change it is a democracy, But you know what else it is ? A free society means I also have the right to leave.

All I'm saying is that if your "conscience" objects to the government, then leave now and stop taking advantage of it now. That's what a consciencious objector would do. What you're doing is taking advantage for as long as it benefits you directly and in the specific way you want and ditching out when it's time to pay the piper. Which is fine. Go for it. But stop pretending like you've got some greater good in mind. It's a selfish act by someone who doesn't actually have a whole lot of a clue as to what they're objecting to, given you're objecting to something that isn't happening nor even proposed.

Have the fortitude to actually demonstrate you object to this government and get on the horse and gallop on out. I assure you there will be no one in the American government trying to stop you or even slow you down. Do me another favor, if you don't mind... on your way out, can you holler, "You can use my money to bomb as many people as you like, but I'll be damned if I'm going to have my taxes go to health care for those who can't afford it." Then giggle like a madman and ride like hell.

Free Soviets

25-02-2009, 08:03

It will be Korea. I know the country like the back of my hand, and i already know the language.

As for the why? If Health care is Nationalized I want no part of it, and not a dime of my tax money to go to it.

so, um, exactly how much effort have you put into researching korea's healthcare system?

greed and death

25-02-2009, 08:07

All I'm saying is that if your "conscience" objects to the government, then leave now and stop taking advantage of it now. That's what a consciencious objector would do. What you're doing is taking advantage for as long as it benefits you directly and in the specific way you want and ditching out when it's time to pay the piper. Which is fine. Go for it. But stop pretending like you've got some greater good in mind. It's a selfish act by someone who doesn't actually have a whole lot of a clue as to what they're objecting to, given you're objecting to something that isn't happening nor even proposed.

I served in the military I am entitled to contract obligations as far as higher education goes. And While I doubt any part time work while i am in school will be subject to income tax, there is an involuntary investment in society I have made and will likely continue to make while in school. If Society changes to the point where, I must Abandon that investment in society, then I feel no qualms about abandoning any investment society might feel it has placed in me.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 08:09

so, um, exactly how much effort have you put into researching korea's healthcare system?

I would not be required to pay taxes there so I don't care. I can live there and not be part of their system. If the US offered that option I would be more then willing to take it up on the offer.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:12

I served in the military I am entitled to contract obligations as far as higher education goes. And While I doubt any part time work while i am in school will be subject to income tax, there is an involuntary investment in society I have made and will likely continue to make while in school. If Society changes to the point where, I must Abandon that investment in society, then I feel no qualms about abandoning any investment society might feel it has placed in me.

Uh, you realize that your time in the military doesn't absolve you from repaying student loans (ask me how I know). It also doesn't address that student loans are a gift, an interest-free loan, from our government. It's purpose to create a more educated citizenry. That particular purpose is being circumvented by you, on purpose. The government gives us certain things with the expectation we'll fulfill the social contract. You're already admitting you don't feel that obligation. Stop pretending like your military service, or mine, changes the purposes of the various government programs (including state run schools) you're engaging in.

More hilariously, as pointed out above, Korea is about 12 years past what Obama is proposing. They're well past what Hillary Clinton proposed which is a great deal more strict than Obama proposes. Seriously, you have to pause between posts. I can barely breathe. This stuff is gold.

Free Soviets

25-02-2009, 08:14

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:15

I would not be required to pay taxes there so I don't care. I can live there and not be part of their system. If the US offered that option I would be more then willing to take it up on the offer.

Legally, you're obligated to pay our taxes or theirs. Obviously, you haven't actually done the first wit of research into this, but you clearly don't have a clue as to how it actually works. Admittedly, I'm not familiar with Korea's laws, but I can tell you that after a year in the US straight through, you're obligated to pay taxes here whether you are a citizen here or not. You'd have to check with a tax lawyer, but you don't get a free pass on taxes just because you're not in your country of origin. It doesn't work that way.

And in case you didn't realize, they have MANDATORY insurance. It's a requirement.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:16

this plan sounds stupider and stupider

And less and less aware of the actual workings of things. Thanks for the heads up on the Korean health care system. I actually laughed out loud when I looked it up. It's practically the exactly same plan, travelling from Obama's plan to Clinton's over the course of 12 years.

Seriously, this could only be funnier if he'd chosen Denmark.

Free Soviets

25-02-2009, 08:20

Seriously, this could only be funnier if he'd chosen Denmark.

fuck your socialist agenda, i'mma go to cuba!

greed and death

25-02-2009, 08:21

Uh, you realize that your time in the military doesn't absolve you from repaying student loans (ask me how I know). It also doesn't address that student loans are a gift, an interest-free loan, from our government. It's purpose to create a more educated citizenry. That particular purpose is being circumvented by you, on purpose. The government gives us certain things with the expectation we'll fulfill the social contract. You're already admitting you don't feel that obligation. Stop pretending like your military service, or mine, changes the purposes of the various government programs (including state run schools) you're engaging in.

No where in the condition of the loans does it require me to work in the states. And I will pay them off more then likely. My abandoned investment in social security releases me from any assumed investment in society of my education. I only took out a subsidized loan once thus far to cover a lapse in benefits from the VA.

More hilariously, as pointed out above, Korea is about 12 years past what Obama is proposing. They're well past what Hillary Clinton proposed which is a great deal more strict than Obama proposes. Seriously, you have to pause between posts. I can barely breathe. This stuff is gold.

Again Korea does not make its foreigners pay taxes. And I know this because my GF works at a company that does nothing but hire Foreigners to teach.

Geniasis

25-02-2009, 08:23

Seriously, this could only be funnier if he'd chosen Denmark.

I assume they have universal Healthcare most foul?

greed and death

25-02-2009, 08:23

Legally, you're obligated to pay our taxes or theirs. Obviously, you haven't actually done the first wit of research into this, but you clearly don't have a clue as to how it actually works. Admittedly, I'm not familiar with Korea's laws, but I can tell you that after a year in the US straight through, you're obligated to pay taxes here whether you are a citizen here or not. You'd have to check with a tax lawyer, but you don't get a free pass on taxes just because you're not in your country of origin. It doesn't work that way.

And in case you didn't realize, they have MANDATORY insurance. It's a requirement.

Seriously you don't pay Taxes in Korea if your a foreigner. They withhold 3.3%~5% but you get that back when you leave the country.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:26

No where in the condition of the loans does it require me to work in the states. And I will pay them off more then likely. My abandoned investment in social security releases me from any assumed investment in society of my education. I only took out a subsidized loan once thus far to cover a lapse in benefits from the VA.

The social contract isn't written down, but the entire reason for the loans from the department of education is to increase the scholarship of our work force. You're avoiding becoming a part of that work force and contributing the country that educated you and helped you fund that education.

Again Korea does not make its foreigners pay taxes. And I know this because my GF works at a company that does nothing but hire Foreigners to teach.

Yes, and they do so provided you're paying taxes elsewhere as a citizen of that country. If you don't pay taxes on your earnings under the guise of being a citizen of the US, then you're not in some legal loophole. Taxes are an obligation and by not paying them, you're violating the law, regardless of whether it will be enforced.

Free Soviets

25-02-2009, 08:28

Seriously you don't pay Taxes in Korea if your a foreigner. They withhold 3.3%~5% but you get that back when you leave the country.

http://www.korea4expats.com/article-income-taxes.html seems to disagree

Geniasis

25-02-2009, 08:28

Seriously you don't pay Taxes in Korea if your a foreigner. They withhold 3.3%~5% but you get that back when you leave the country.

Then why did a quick Google search turn up several references to a Korean government-endorsed English language Tax Guide for foreigners?

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:29

Seriously you don't pay Taxes in Korea if your a foreigner. They withhold 3.3%~5% but you get that back when you leave the country.

But you won't be leaving, since they aren't going implement universal health care and then abandon it.

Come on, stop beating around the "bush" and admit this is just sour grapes. If your real issue is universal health care, then you won't be returning.

As a person who deals A LOT with consultants who travel to other countries, I can assure you that your tax burden to the US, provided you remain a citizen, can only be replaced by a tax burden to another nation. You don't get to just wave your magic wand and say, "I'm in a gray area so I don't owe taxes." It was a ludicrous argument when Bush tried to argue that he can exist in the holes between words, and it's equally ludicrous here.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:30

Then why did a quick Google search turn up several references to a Korean government-endorsed English language Tax Guide for foreigners?

Shhhhh... stop crushing his dream by showing him reality.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 08:31

The social contract isn't written down, but the entire reason for the loans from the department of education is to increase the scholarship of our work force. You're avoiding becoming a part of that work force and contributing the country that educated you and helped you fund that education.

Yes, and they do so provided you're paying taxes elsewhere as a citizen of that country. If you don't pay taxes on your earnings under the guise of being a citizen of the US, then you're not in some legal loophole. Taxes are an obligation and by not paying them, you're violating the law, regardless of whether it will be enforced.
Income tax is based largley on where you earn the income.
I have no intention of becoming a citizen. I will be an Expat. duh.
here is a selection the contract I am offered for teaching English in Korea as soon as I have a BA.

Retirement allowance: 1 extra month’s salary when you finish a full one-year contract
- Accommodation: Well Furnished Rent-Free Housing
- Airfare: Free (to be paid by the school)
- Medical care: Insurance to be covered by employer
- Vacation: The national holidays, 12~14 paid vacation days, a week in summer and
at the end of the year.
- Tax rate: 3.3~5% but to be refunded at contract completion

greed and death

25-02-2009, 08:33

Then why did a quick Google search turn up several references to a Korean government-endorsed English language Tax Guide for foreigners?

Funny how my contract offer says otherwise.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:34

http://www.korea4expats.com/article-income-taxes.html seems to disagree

I love that teachers are the only exception and, amusingly, only if they pay taxes in the state from which they came and only for two years.

So it's either pay taxes here or pay taxes there. Perhaps, he should have done a tiny bit of research before he got all in a huff, don't ya think?

greed and death

25-02-2009, 08:36

I love that teachers are the only exception and, amusingly, only if they pay taxes in the state from which they came and only for two years.

So it's either pay taxes here or pay taxes there. Perhaps, he should have done a tiny bit of research before he got all in a huff, don't ya think?

okay. I can live with 2 years at a time then move to another country.
Have to check with my connection in Taiwan but i bet a similar system.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:37

Funny how my contract offer says otherwise.

No, it doesn't. The law says that you are exempt from paying taxes in Korea if you pay them here. The law has been quoted here. Your contract simply says they won't collect taxes in Korea. You'll also notice, that it's assuming you're only staying for the term of the contract. This is also a fact of law. If you remain past two years, you're not qualified for exemption and you'll owe taxes in Korea.

But, hey, it's not like you should listen to the Korean government. I mean, what can they do? Throw you in jail?

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:37

okay. I can live with 2 years at a time then move to another country.
Have to check with my connection in Taiwan but i bet a similar system.

Provided you pay taxes in the US, you'll be fine. That is what you're planning on doing, yeah?

According to the Korean tax code: An individual who is a resident of a contracting State, and who at the invitation of any university, college, or other recognized educational institution, visits the other contracting State for a period not exceeding two years solely for the purpose of teaching, or research or both at such educational institution shall be taxable only in the first mentioned State on his remuneration for such teaching or research.

So you're taxable the the US according to both US law and Korean law. Incidentally, it also requires that you maintain residence in the US. See, it doesn't say a citizen, but rather "an individual who is a resident of a contracting state". If your familiar with the difference, it's much easier to change residency than citizenship.

Free Soviets

25-02-2009, 08:38

okay. I can live with 2 years at a time then move to another country.
Have to check with my connection in Taiwan but i bet a similar system.

so you really haven't thought this through at all, have you? like nothing beyond the initial "that's it, i'm moving to cana...um, korea!"

Geniasis

25-02-2009, 08:39

okay. I can live with 2 years at a time then move to another country.
Have to check with my connection in Taiwan but i bet a similar system.

I bet it is. Similar in the fact that it probably doesn't work the way you think it does either.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:43

so you really haven't thought this through at all, have you? like nothing beyond the initial "that's it, i'm moving to cana...um, korea!"

It's funny all of the stuff he keeps getting caught on. Korea has a more universal system than is proposed here. Universal health care is not a proposal actually on the table. That he's obligated to pay taxes here or there. That he has to move every two years. That he has to maintain residence in the US.

Seriously, this guy is going to have to go to great lengths to avoid paying the money he actually owes. By the way, don't they have a word for people who try to avoid paying money they owe?

greed and death

25-02-2009, 08:43

I bet it is. Similar in the fact that it probably doesn't work the way you think it does either.

Considering the last time i was in Korea working as an English teacher that how it worked. I am going to have to go with my experience in the matter.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:46

Considering the last time i was in Korea working as an English teacher that how it worked. I am going to have to go with my experience in the matter.

Let's check. Give me your social security number and the time you spent in Korea, and I'll hand that information over to the IRS. I'm sure they'll agree with you on this.

And given you weren't aware of any of this till we told you, I'm calling bullshit.

Under law, you pay taxes here because this is your resident state or you pay there because it's become your new resident state. Here or there, but you owe taxes. That you managed to commit a crime in the past and got away with it doesn't make it not a crime.

Geniasis

25-02-2009, 08:48

It's funny all of the stuff he keeps getting caught on. Korea has a more universal system than is proposed here. Universal health care is not a proposal actually on the table. That he's obligated to pay taxes here or there. That he has to move every two years. That he has to maintain residence in the US.

Seriously, this guy is going to have to go to great lengths to avoid paying the money he actually owes. By the way, don't they have a word for people who try to avoid paying money they owe?

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f284/kingcomrade/Criminal_Scum_Telepathy.jpg

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 08:49

Here's a fairly clear explanation to help you out, since you're research on this appears to be "I asked my girlfriend and she told me". Granted, recently, it became "I have a job offer in front of me" and then "I did it before so I know".

Regardless, your anecdotes don't change the law.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/Cutyourtaxes/P119350.asp

greed and death

25-02-2009, 08:52

Let's check. Give me your social security number and the time you spent in Korea, and I'll hand that information over to the IRS. I'm sure they'll agree with you on this.

And given you weren't aware of any of this till we told you, I'm calling bullshit.

Under law, you pay taxes here because this is your resident state or you pay there because it's become your new resident state. Here or there, but you owe taxes. That you managed to commit a crime in the past and got away with it doesn't make it not a crime.

funny seems no one bothered to tell the companies about it either
http://www.hotjobkorea.com/ap/ap3.asp
again
tax rate 3.3% to 5% to be returned

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:02

funny seems no one bothered to tell the companies about it either
http://www.hotjobkorea.com/ap/ap3.asp
again

Yes, because foreign companies are not obligated to withhold your taxes. No company is, in fact.

I love that you look the laws right and their plain requirements for you to pay taxes and pretend like as long as your employer doesn't collect the taxes, you don't owe them.

You do realize that your employer may or may not have an obligation to pay taxes relating to you, but you ABSOLUTELY do. You are responsible for collecting money to pay and paying your taxes. It is not your employers obligation. But, hey, what do I know. I've only worked as a 1099 for several years and own my own business. But don't take my word for it, just as I wouldn't take yours. Read the laws that have been linked in this thread.

I gave you a summary article of the law with links to the direct and clear US law for the government itself. You will most certainly be breaking the law and you are subject to it. More importantly, many, many other countries will obligate to demonstrate residence elsewhere or pay taxes, just as the US does. Can you demonstrate residence in the US while moving every two years? Not likely, particularly when not meeting your tax burden.

As has been pointed out, you probably should have put more thought into this than "dammit, Obama won, time for a tirade."

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:07

funny seems no one bothered to tell the companies about it either
http://www.hotjobkorea.com/ap/ap3.asp
again

I love that your full weight of "evidence" comes from linking to a hot jobs website that fails to discuss the nuances of the tax burdens ex-pats face, while you ignore that you've been linked to an actual reference to Korean and US law and fairly clear summarizations of the exact tax burden a teacher would face if living in Korea for two years.

Geniasis

25-02-2009, 09:10

I love that your full weight of "evidence" comes from linking to a hot jobs website that fails to discuss the nuances of the tax burdens ex-pats face, while you ignore that you've been linked to an actual reference to Korean and US law and fairly clear summarizations of the exact tax burden a teacher would face if living in Korea for two years.

*AHEM*

What was that you said to me earlier about not crushing his dreams with reality? Isn't there some curing of thyself you should be doing, physician? ;)

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:13

*AHEM*

What was that you said to me earlier about not crushing his dreams with reality? Isn't there some curing of thyself you should be doing, physician? ;)

Then I probably shouldn't mentioned that they said they only return the taxes they withhold if you're Canadian. Yeah, I won't mention that just in case that crushes his dreams.

Tax rate 3.3-5%(Depending on your salary, If you are Canadian, your tax can be refunded at contract completion)

greed and death

25-02-2009, 09:23

Yes, because foreign companies are not obligated to withhold your taxes. No company is, in fact.

I love that you look the laws right and their plain requirements for you to pay taxes and pretend like as long as your employer doesn't collect the taxes, you don't owe them.

You do realize that your employer may or may not have an obligation to pay taxes relating to you, but you ABSOLUTELY do. You are responsible for collecting money to pay and paying your taxes. It is not your employers obligation. But, hey, what do I know. I've only worked as a 1099 for several years and own my own business. But don't take my word for it, just as I wouldn't take yours. Read the laws that have been linked in this thread.

I gave you a summary article of the law with links to the direct and clear US law for the government itself. You will most certainly be breaking the law and you are subject to it. More importantly, many, many other countries will obligate to demonstrate residence elsewhere or pay taxes, just as the US does. Can you demonstrate residence in the US while moving every two years? Not likely, particularly when not meeting your tax burden.

As has been pointed out, you probably should have put more thought into this than "dammit, Obama won, time for a tirade."

And I am telling you from both experience and the horses mouth that teachers over there by and large don't pay taxes. as for what the law says I don't care. no i will not provide you with my private info though i seem to be past the point IRS policy pursues non filers anyways.
Domestic residence moving every two years ? passports last for ten as far as an international employer is concerned your passport is going to be where you from.
And its not that Obama won. Its that he has made it appear he will rush on health care.
also IRS website physical presence test. with 82k excluded.
http://www.wwwebtax.com/income/foreign_earnings.htm

greed and death

25-02-2009, 09:25

Then I probably shouldn't mentioned that they said they only return the taxes they withhold if you're Canadian. Yeah, I won't mention that just in case that crushes his dreams.

Tax rate 3.3-5%(Depending on your salary, If you are Canadian, your tax can be refunded at contract completion)

Send them an Email and ask. guarantee they tell you it applies to Americans too. cause i was chatting with one of them until about 30 minutes ago.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:29

And I am telling you from both experience and the horses mouth that teachers over there by and large don't pay taxes. as for what the law says I don't care. no i will not provide you with my private info though i seem to be past the point IRS policy pursues non filers anyways.
Domestic residence moving every two years ? passports last for ten as far as an international employer is concerned your passport is going to be where you from.
And its not that Obama won. Its that he has made it appear he will rush on health care.
also IRS website physical presence test. with 82k excluded.
http://www.wwwebtax.com/income/foreign_earnings.htm

If you take up residence in the new country, you'll owe taxes. If you don't, you'll owe taxes here. That simple. Now, you can simply not pay them and hope you don't get caught, but then you can do that here as well, now can't you.

That doesn't change that you're not avoiding the tax burden, but rather just ignoring your responsibilities and breaking the law. The "horse's mouth" here appears to change his story rather frequently. The law, however, remains the same as it was at the beginning of thread when you were informed that you owe taxes whether you work here or overseas, and the only thing that changes is whether you owe them here or there or both. Yeah, that's the best part, that you could very well end up in a position where you owe money to both government that will fund both governments universal health insurance. Way to go, consciencious objecter!!

Come on, this is the part where you come clean. You hadn't thought this through because you're on a tirade. You don't actually know what your legal obligations are. You didn't know that Korea has a more universal and more strict system than those proposed in the US. And you don't know what will happen if you attempt to ignore the law for an extended period of time.

Seriously, what good is lying to people on the internet going to do you? It won't change the law and the laws of both countries obligate you to pay taxes on your income.

Also, the 82K exclusion is for when you've been obligated to taxes overseas, in order to prevent you from paying taxes twice. You obviously didn't actually read the requirements to qualify for those exclusions, because if you had, you'd notice that it supports what I said earlier and right now. That you pay taxes in one place or the other (or potentially both, if you don't qualify for enough exemptions).

Foreign earnings includes wages, salaries, commissions, professional fees, and bonuses, for personal services performed in a foreign country during the time your tax home is in a foreign country and you meet either a bona fide residence test or a physical presence test. The place where you perform the services is what defines your foreign earnings as foreign, not where or how you are paid.

In other words, you have to demonstrate that your residence has become to the foreign state, which if you do so in Korea obligates you taxes in Korea. Their exemption requires you to maintain residence in the US, which would disqualify you from the US exemption. You aren't exempt in both places.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:31

Send them an Email and ask. guarantee they tell you it applies to Americans too. cause i was chatting with one of them until about 30 minutes ago.

I'll make a deal with you. How about I send them an email and ask them if I'm expected to pay taxes in the US? If they reply that you are, you not only pay your taxes during that period, but you donate $100 to the Obama 2012 campaign, horse's mouth? Come on. You're the expert. You can't possibly be wrong. I'll post the reply right here.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 09:34

If you take up residence in the new country, you'll owe taxes. If you don't, you'll owe taxes here. That simple. Now, you can simply not pay them and hope you don't get caught, but then you can do that here as well, now can't you.

That doesn't change that you're not avoiding the tax burden, but rather just ignoring your responsibilities and breaking the law. The "horse's mouth" here appears to change his story rather frequently. The law, however, remains the same as it was at the beginning of thread when you were informed that you owe taxes whether you work here or overseas, and the only thing that changes is whether you owe them here or there or both. Yeah, that's the best part, that you could very well end up in a position where you owe money to both government that will fund both governments universal health insurance. Way to go, consciencious objecter!!

Come on, this is the part where you come clean. You hadn't thought this through because you're on a tirade. You don't actually know what your legal obligations are. You didn't know that Korea has a more universal and more strict system than those proposed in the US. And you don't know what will happen if you attempt to ignore the law for an extended period of time.

Seriously, what good is lying to people on the internet going to do you? It won't change the law and the laws of both countries obligate you to pay taxes on your income.

IRS website says residence or physical presence exempts from the first 75K. (more now but dont want to look it up again) of foreign earned income.

Geniasis

25-02-2009, 09:35

I'll make a deal with you. How about I send them an email and ask them if I'm expected to pay taxes in the US? If they reply that you are, you not only pay your taxes during that period, but you donate $100 to the Obama 2012 campaign, horse's mouth? Come on. You're the expert. You can't possibly be wrong. I'll post the reply right here.

And if he doubts the legitimacy, make sure he's CCed on the email and the response.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:38

IRS website says residence or physical presence exempts from the first 75K. (more now but dont want to look it up again) of foreign earned income.

Right, it says you have to take up residence in Korea. And Korea says you are only exempt from their taxes provided you maintain residence in the US. So either you pay here or you pay there. It's not particularly complicated.

The job you are applying for is allowing you to maintain residence in the US. That's the design of it. Otherwise, the housing they give you in Korea is also income, as is the flight they give you to and from Korea. In other words, you'll be increasing your tax burden by claiming you're a resident of Korea. You sure you wanna do that? And if you don't, the exemption you're referring to does not apply to you.

Seriously, dude, do you really want to argue with a consultant about how to deal with residence in order to make sure you don't shift your tax burden? Cuz, I'll school you on this, I assure you.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 09:41

Say period of residence. Not claim of residency

Earnings Exclusion - Bona fide Residence Test

The bona fide residence test can be used by U.S. citizens and U.S. resident aliens who are citizens or nationals of a country with which the U.S. has an income tax treaty. You must be a bona fide resident of a foreign country or countries for an uninterrupted period that includes one full tax year. The characteristics usually qualifying you as a bona fide resident include establishing a home and settling in that country with some degree of permanence.

Foreign Earnings Exclusion - Physical Presence Test

The physical presence test can be used by any U.S. citizen or resident alien. You must be physically present in a foreign country or countries for at least 330 full days during any period of 12 consecutive months. The 12-month period can begin with any day in the tax year.

Generally, your tax home is the general area of your main place of business or post of duty, regardless of where you maintain your family home. If you do not have a regular or main place of business because of the nature of your work, then your tax home may be the place where you regularly live. You are not considered to have a tax home in a foreign country for any period for which your household is in the U.S. However, if you are temporarily present in the U.S., it does not necessarily mean that your household is in the U.S. during that time.

You qualify for the foreign earnings exclusion only if your tax home is in a foreign country throughout your period of residence or your 330 days of physical presence.

Ryadn

25-02-2009, 09:46

Let's check. Give me your social security number and the time you spent in Korea, and I'll hand that information over to the IRS. I'm sure they'll agree with you on this.

And given you weren't aware of any of this till we told you, I'm calling bullshit.

Under law, you pay taxes here because this is your resident state or you pay there because it's become your new resident state. Here or there, but you owe taxes. That you managed to commit a crime in the past and got away with it doesn't make it not a crime.

Damn... so I shouldn't call my dad up in Malaysia and tell him to take back his money? He would have been so happy. :(

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:48

Say period of residence. Not claim of residency

Yes, and the part you're missing is that if you shift your tax home to Korea, which is what you're proposing, then you owe Korean taxes. That's how it works. That's what a tax home is. The purpose of this shelter is to prevent you from paying taxes twice.

And the thing is, you won't have that residence in Korea. They've designed it so you don't. That's the way they set up the contract. Because, as I said, if you do end up with Korea as a tax home, then your expenses that are covered by your employer are taxable income.

Do you wish to take up a taxable residence in Korea? Would you prefer to keep your taxable residence here? Those are your options. The law isn't designed to exclude you from taxes. It prevents you from paying them twice. Or attempts to. It is very narrow and you're ignoring what it's telling you. You have to actually shift your tax burden to Korea to qualify for this exemption.

Ryadn

25-02-2009, 09:49

Then I probably shouldn't mentioned that they said they only return the taxes they withhold if you're Canadian. Yeah, I won't mention that just in case that crushes his dreams.

Tax rate 3.3-5%(Depending on your salary, If you are Canadian, your tax can be refunded at contract completion)

Not to mention the bit that said teachers will be covered under the General Health Organization, with half the cost coming from the employee's salary...

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:50

Damn... so I shouldn't call my dad up in Malaysia and tell him to take back his money? He would have been so happy. :(

Don't you get it. He heard about it this one time from a friend so it's legal. Sure, don't worry about the law specifically talking about your "tax home" and references that it must have shifted to the other state in order for you not to pay taxes in this one. That's just pillow talk, baby.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:50

Not to mention the bit that said teachers will be covered under the General Health Organization, with half the cost coming from the employee's salary...

Pillow talk.

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 09:51

Say period of residence. Not claim of residency

As someone who has taught overseas and is currently earning a Juris Doctorate in America, if you plan on going to Law School, you'll have to learn to pay attention to things like what you posted:

You qualify for the foreign earnings exclusion only if your tax home is in a foreign country throughout your period of residence or your 330 days of physical presence.

Yet your earlier post indicated that Korea only holds you tax exempt if your tax home ISN'T in Korea.

So, you won't be exempt from both at the same time, as several people have explained.

If you "don't care about the law" as you've said, don't go to law school in the US please.

If you think traveling from one jurisdiction to another nullifies legal agreements you've made, don't go to Law School here.

If, when you are "impassioned", you are motivated to statements about defrauding the education system you benefited from, don't go to Law School here.

If you think a hotjobs link is a reasonable source on tax law, don't go to Law School here.

If you've studied history but not enough economics to know that by living in Korea, teaching its students, and having its company pay into its healthcare system on your behalf as part of your remuneration per the job offer you posted that you are thus subsidizing their healthcare system just as much as paying taxes with a US company, then don't go to Law School here.

Have you taken the LSAT yet? I'm curious as to what you'd score.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:54

On that note, I'm going to bed. You wolves are getting blood all over my pretty white wool. ;)

Ryadn

25-02-2009, 09:56

Have you taken the LSAT yet? I'm curious as to what you'd score.

1500! What do you mean it doesn't go up to 1500? I've taken it, so I'd know. Maybe they changed the scoring since I took it a long time ago. You can call the LSAT office if you don't believe me.

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 09:57

1500! What do you mean it doesn't go up to 1500? I've taken it, so I'd know. Maybe they changed the scoring since I took it a long time ago. You can call the LSAT office if you don't believe me.

I notice I didn't get a reply to my challenge to email the employer and ask if I'd be expected to pay US taxes. Hmmmm... it's a wonder why.

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 09:58

1500! What do you mean it doesn't go up to 1500? I've taken it, so I'd know. Maybe they changed the scoring since I took it a long time ago. You can call the LSAT office if you don't believe me.

Well, I have a hot jobs posting that says they accept a 119...

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 10:33

Well, I have a hot jobs posting that says they accept a 119...

I can practically smell him fuming while he tries to think of a reply that won't expose that he really doesn't even remotely get what a "tax home" is, nor the fact that the Korean job opportunity is attempting to arrange so his tax home remains the US.

I strongly suspect it will be some attempt to simply ignore the arguments and go with some variation of what y'all are making fun of. Let's tune in and find out. *puts chin in hands and waits*

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 10:37

I can practically smell him fuming while he tries to think of a reply that won't expose that he really doesn't even remotely get what a "tax home" is, nor the fact that the Korean job opportunity is attempting to arrange so his tax home remains the US.

I strongly suspect it will be some attempt to simply ignore the arguments and go with some variation of what y'all are making fun of. Let's tune in and find out. *puts chin in hands and waits*

What I particularly liked was the bit about how if the employers don't withhold the taxes, he's "de facto" exempt, as he put it.

I'm nowhere near as apt a legal scholar as Neo Art, Neesika, Cats, or others on this board, but there is a rudimentary level of critical analysis they expect you to have going in to law school, and some of the reasoning I've seen here by greed and death is...

Jocabia

25-02-2009, 10:46

What I particularly liked was the bit about how if the employers don't withhold the taxes, he's "de facto" exempt, as he put it.

I'm nowhere near as apt a legal scholar as Neo Art, Neesika, Cats, or others on this board, but there is a rudimentary level of critical analysis they expect you to have going in to law school, and some of the reasoning I've seen here by greed and death is...

I personally like the part that moving your tax home doesn't mean you're going to have to pay taxes in state that is now your tax home. I mean, obviously, when they called it a tax home it was just to trick people.

Random tax law guy (yeah, I know they're called Representatives and Senators, but I like my name better): Hehe. This tax stuff is too easy. You know what will really screw with 'em. Let's call it your tax home to refer to where we consider you a resident, but have it not have anything to do with where you should pay taxes. Just because I'm so tired of people paying their taxes properly.

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 10:57

I personally like the part that moving your tax home doesn't mean you're going to have to pay taxes in state that is now your tax home. I mean, obviously, when they called it a tax home it was just to trick people.

Random tax law guy (yeah, I know they're called Representatives and Senators, but I like my name better): Hehe. This tax stuff is too easy. You know what will really screw with 'em. Let's call it your tax home to refer to where we consider you a resident, but have it not have anything to do with where you should pay taxes. Just because I'm so tired of people paying their taxes properly.

Well, he did say "I don't care about the law".

Now, he said it after making a number of faulty claims about the law, and then followed it by making a number of faulty claims about the law.

I've been thinking about this. In principle, school is for people to learn about things they don't know about. So, it would follow that he should go to law school more than most people.

On the other hand, law schools are selective for a reason...

greed and death

25-02-2009, 11:00

As someone who has taught overseas and is currently earning a Juris Doctorate in America, if you plan on going to Law School, you'll have to learn to pay attention to things like what you posted:

correct my interpretation then.
1st your never exempt from the US tax code. You can however receive exemption for 75k US (think it is 80K + now) under US tax law.

here is the tax treaty
http://www.unclefed.com/ForTaxProfs/Treaties/korea.pdf
article 20 is the relevant article on teachers. parenthesis added by me to simplify in lines to relevancy to the situation.

(1) Where a resident of one of the Contracting States(USA) is invited by the Government of the other Contracting State(KOREA), a political subdivision, or a local authority thereof, or by a university or other recognized educational institution in that other Contracting State(KOREA) to come to that other Contracting State(KOREA) for a period not expected to exceed 2 years for the purpose of teaching or engaging in research, or both, at a university or other recognized educational institution and such resident comes to that other Contracting State(KOREA) primarily for such purpose, his income from personal services for teaching or research at such university or educational institution shall be exempt from tax by that other Contracting State(KOREA) for a period not exceeding 2 years from the date of his arrival in that other Contracting State(KOREA).

There is no mention of change of tax home in the treaty, the only mention is that of Exemption. That being said the treaty does not change Tax home status. Also does not mention it does not change where the income is considered to be earned. So again the treaty has no affect from IRS documents say the income comes from.

So now we go to this here IRS publication.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf
page 12. Tax home. Your tax home is the general area of your main place of business, employment, or post of duty regardless of where you maintain your family home.
This means If I am employed in Korea my Tax home is In Korea.

Also on page 12.
and being paraphrased because IRS pubs do not copy paste well.
three requirements to claim Foreign earned income status are:
1. your Tax home must be in a foreign country(check)
2. you must have a foreign earned income.
3. a.US citizen bonfide resident.
b. US resident bonifide resident
c. physically present
either of these three can meant the requirements. so (3 Check)

#2 is still in question. so going to page 15 we find a definition of Foreign earned income. Foreign earned income when A. your Tax home is a foreign country. and B you meet bonifide resident or physical presence test. #2 is now check.

That being said. My conclusion You teach English in Korea you are exempt from Korean Taxes, and you have an exclusion of the first 87,000 dollars you earn in Korea.
My error was assuming that what they gave to teachers was something they gave to all visiting four year degreed professionals.

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 11:21

correct my interpretation then.
1st your never exempt from the US tax code. You can however receive exemption for 75k US (think it is 80K + now) under US tax law.

Yes, if you are a resident of the US, which you indicated you didn't want to be anymore as a "conscientious objector", that treaty would make you exempt from Korean taxes for a while, so long as you are a US Resident.

And by the very job offer you posted, your employer will be paying, as part of your compensation, into the Korean health care system, which is far more "socialized" then the US.

here is the tax treaty
http://www.unclefed.com/ForTaxProfs/Treaties/korea.pdf
article 20 is the relevant article on teachers. parenthesis added by me to simplify in lines to relevancy to the situation.

Again, that's if you keep your US residency. An honest "Conscientious Objector", if their conscience was authentic, wouldn't do that.

There is no mention of change of tax home in the treaty, the only mention is that of Exemption. That being said the treaty does not change Tax home status. Also does not mention it does not change where the income is considered to be earned. So again the treaty has no affect from IRS documents say the income comes from.

So now we go to this here IRS publication.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf
page 12.
This means If I am employed in Korea my Tax home is In Korea.

So, you acknowledge that your tax home is in Korea, but the treaty that exempts you from Korean taxes (if you are a university or other government authority recognized teacher) is accomplished through exactly the same Federal authority that will supposedly socialize medicine. Your conscience is quite selective.

But yes, if your "conscience" in objecting to the US government is to keep a residence in the US to invoke the treaty, yet move your tax home to Korea, you will, for a while, be exempt to a certain amount.

My mistake was in thinking your "conscientious objection" was to actually make the authentic statement of leaving the country in good faith, not keeping a residence here to keep the benefits while avoiding the payment.

Also on page 12.
and being paraphrased because IRS pubs do not copy paste well.
three requirements to claim Foreign earned income status are:
1. your Tax home must be in a foreign country(check)
2. you must have a foreign earned income.
3. a.US citizen bonfide resident.
b. US resident bonifide resident
c. physically present
either of these three can meant the requirements. so (3 Check)

#2 is still in question. so going to page 15 we find a definition of Foreign earned income. Foreign earned income when A. your Tax home is a foreign country. and B you meet bonifide resident or physical presence test. #2 is now check.

That being said. My conclusion You teach English in Korea you are exempt from Korean Taxes, and you have an exclusion of the first 87,000 dollars you earn in Korea.
My error was assuming that what they gave to teachers was something they gave to all visiting four year degreed professionals.

That's a fairly grievous error. Perhaps you were merely "impassioned".

greed and death

25-02-2009, 11:41

Yes, if you are a resident of the US, which you indicated you didn't want to be anymore as a "conscientious objector", that treaty would make you exempt from Korean taxes for a while, so long as you are a US Resident.

so your saying conscientious objector to a war leaves the country rather then simply refuses to fight. My goal is to avoid paying into the US health care system. China and Japan both similar provisions in their tax treaties with the US.

And by the very job offer you posted, your employer will be paying, as part of your compensation, into the Korean health care system, which is far more "socialized" then the US.

I not being a Korean would have not the right to object to the system of Korea. I am objecting to the system in the country for which I have the right to object too. As for my part in it I can consider the exemption of other Taxes to more then make up for having to pay into a health care plan.

Again, that's if you keep your US residency. An honest "Conscientious Objector", if their conscience was authentic, wouldn't do that.

I am objecting to a system within the US not the existence of the nation.

So, you acknowledge that your tax home is in Korea, but the treaty that exempts you from Korean taxes (if you are a university or other government authority recognized teacher) is accomplished through exactly the same Federal authority that will supposedly socialize medicine. Your conscience is quite selective.

But yes, if your "conscience" in objecting to the US government is to keep a residence in the US to invoke the treaty, yet move your tax home to Korea, you will, for a while, be exempt to a certain amount.

My mistake was in thinking your "conscientious objection" was to actually make the authentic statement of leaving the country in good faith, not keeping a residence here to keep the benefits while avoiding the payment.

yes that was your mistake I object to what may become a US policy(and my avoidance of tax by living overseas condition on that policy's adoption). I seek to avoid any of my Tax dollars supporting said policy within the US.

That's a fairly grievous error. Perhaps you were merely "impassioned".

Misinformation from when I taught English there.
Didn't get around to looking up the relevant laws and treaties until just now (was sorely pressed with a draft for class).

greed and death

25-02-2009, 11:54

Snip

Anyways since you have a Juris Doctorate surely you can answer my original question. Is a US law degree worth anything overseas?
Go ahead and assume crossing into Civil law rather then Common law.
Still curious even if i cant avoid taxes in the host country.

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 11:58

so your saying conscientious objector to a war leaves the country rather then simply refuses to fight.

Your stated expression of "conscientious objection" was to leave the country. If that's just to avoid paying taxes, then stay and avoid paying the taxes and pay the fair consequences. But if you leave the country, you're also not contributing to paying for the education of the next generation, as the previous one helped pay for yours.

My goal is to avoid paying into the US health care system. China and Japan both similar provisions in their tax treaties with the US.

So instead, you'll go and work for a company who (by what you posted) will be paying into an even MORE socialist health care system as part of your compensation package. That makes lots of sense.

I not being a Korean would have not the right to object to the system of Korea. I am objecting to the system in the country for which I have the right to object too.

So, you can only object to things done in your own country? Wow, I bet there are a lot of countries that would like your view to be the rule...

As for my part in it I can consider the exemption of other Taxes to more then make up for having to pay into a health care plan.

So, even though you'll still be putting money, through your company, in to their MORE socialized health care, its okay as long as you don't have to pay the taxes that go to support their other government services, like their military, infrastructure, etc. Great, that makes lots of sense.

I am objecting to a system within the US not the existence of the nation.

Then perhaps you should consider that the taxes we pay don't go JUST to this supposed "socialized medicine" that you're leaving over, it goes to veterans benefits, research, subsidizing student loans...you know, all the things you won't be paying into now that you've been educated.

yes that was your mistake I object to what may become a US policy(and my avoidance of tax by living overseas condition on that policy's adoption). I seek to avoid any of my Tax dollars supporting said policy within the US.

And in doing so, you take your tax dollars away from veterans, education, etc, because of what may become US policy. That makes lots of sense.

Misinformation from when I taught English there.
Didn't get around to looking up the relevant laws and treaties until just now (was sorely pressed with a draft for class).

Perhaps looking up the laws and treaties may have been better to do before.

You might also check into economics, and you'll find that by teaching people in Korean, you're contributing extrapolatively more to their economy, which includes a much more "socialized" medicine system, that you'll already be having your employer pay into anyway.

So, as a "conscientious objector", you're going to avoid paying taxes, far more of which go to something other than health care, by going to a place where you'll be paying into a far MORE socialized health care system, but that's okay as long as you don't have to pay the taxes that pay for the services that you'll benefit from while there. Great.

In your studies, have you encountered something called a "Value Added Tax"?

Because every time you spend money in Korea, the VAT will have been paid into. So, you'll AGAIN be paying into a far more socialized medical system with your earnings, every day. Good luck.

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 12:02

Anyways since you have a Juris Doctorate surely you can answer my original question. Is a law degree worth anything overseas?
Go ahead and assume crossing into Civil law rather then Common law.
Still curious even if i cant avoid taxes in the host country.

So, the US system is distinct in many ways, but we're also the biggest customer of a lot of people.

Depending on which law school you go to, there are a lot of international law programs, including ehmphasis in commerce.

This is a somewhat different model of practice than what many lawyers engage in, the traditional admittance to a bar. Overseas, you'll more likely be in a consultant role, still informing your clients about US Laws, but more in planning and compliance.

The thing is, many overseas law positions might want you to have admittance to some bar in the US, and the ability to appear in front of certain regulatory commissions or offices, such as the Patent Office, etc.

I will say that the JD alone won't be enough. If you speak fluent Korean, that would be a huge advantage; knowledge of the host country language and issues will always be an asset.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 12:29

Your stated expression of "conscientious objection" was to leave the country. If that's just to avoid paying taxes, then stay and avoid paying the taxes and pay the fair consequences. But if you leave the country, you're also not contributing to paying for the education of the next generation, as the previous one helped pay for yours.
not paying taxes I wouldn't contribute anything to the next generation either. The only difference in this case is do not have to go to jail for tax evasion. Or the other way to avoid taxes by not working also doesn't doesn't presents me as a leech on the system and would have me depend on what I oppose.

So instead, you'll go and work for a company who (by what you posted) will be paying into an even MORE socialist health care system as part of your compensation package. That makes lots of sense.
The 4% withholding for health care is lower than the income Tax I am exempt from, if I taught. Because, of this the net effect on treasury revenues of the government of South Korea is negative from if they had private health care and I worked as a taxed worker.

So, you can only object to things done in your own country? Wow, I bet there are a lot of countries that would like your view to be the rule...

Yes, a non Chinese person has no business trying to change China as an individual. They can if so impassioned lean on their government to change its polices toward China. But they have no business getting involved with the system of China as an individual.

So, even though you'll still be putting money, through your company, in to their MORE socialized health care, its okay as long as you don't have to pay the taxes that go to support their other government services, like their military, infrastructure, etc. Great, that makes lots of sense.
In this case yes because if they did not have health care I would pay the income tax which is higher then the Health care withholding system they use.

Then perhaps you should consider that the taxes we pay don't go JUST to this supposed "socialized medicine" that you're leaving over, it goes to veterans benefits, research, subsidizing student loans...you know, all the things you won't be paying into now that you've been educated.

I am not provided a choice in whether my money go to objectionable ones or other programs. I am given a choice between all or nothing. If the objection is strong enough then I must choose nothing.

And in doing so, you take your tax dollars away from veterans, education, etc, because of what may become US policy. That makes lots of sense.

There is no option to fund the programs I approve of and not fund the programs I disapprove of. So My choice is provide funding or not to provide funding.

Perhaps looking up the laws and treaties may have been better to do before.

The purpose of the thread was to explore options for law degrees over seas not going to why i may want to leave the country. I was actually rather annoyed at first the thread got pulled this way.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 12:32

So, the US system is distinct in many ways, but we're also the biggest customer of a lot of people.

Depending on which law school you go to, there are a lot of international law programs, including ehmphasis in commerce.

This is a somewhat different model of practice than what many lawyers engage in, the traditional admittance to a bar. Overseas, you'll more likely be in a consultant role, still informing your clients about US Laws, but more in planning and compliance.

The thing is, many overseas law positions might want you to have admittance to some bar in the US, and the ability to appear in front of certain regulatory commissions or offices, such as the Patent Office, etc.

I will say that the JD alone won't be enough. If you speak fluent Korean, that would be a huge advantage; knowledge of the host country language and issues will always be an asset.

My net paranoia forbids me to mention the school i am looking at, however I am limited to Texas law schools, as my second set of Veteran benefits are administered by the state of Texas and not the federal government.

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 12:48

not paying taxes I wouldn't contribute anything to the next generation either. The only difference in this case is do not have to go to jail for tax evasion. Or the other way to avoid taxes by not working also doesn't doesn't presents me as a leech on the system and would have me depend on what I oppose.
The 4% withholding for health care is lower than the income Tax I am exempt from, if I taught. Because, of this the net effect on treasury revenues of the government of South Korea is negative from if they had private health care and I worked as a taxed worker.

That's a rationalization. You're paying into a far more socialized system, something you object to so vehemently you're leaving the country. If you want to pretend that they're transferring the health care money to the general tax fund, whatever makes you feel better. The VAT alone will mean you're supporting far more socialized medicine than you would in the US.

Yes, a non Chinese person has no business trying to change China as an individual. They can if so impassioned lean on their government to change its polices toward China. But they have no business getting involved with the system of China as an individual.

You didn't say "change", you said "object to", which is different. If you want to talk about change, consider that by leaving the US, you're reducing your voice as someone against whatever socialized medicine you've convinced yourself is going to happen, so you've REDUCED your ability to change things in the US.

Simultaneously, you're subsidizing the exact principle that your conscience objects to, but you don't seem to mind because its being done in another country? So, behaving contrary to your principles is fine, as long as its in somebody else's country? Great.

In this case yes because if they did not have health care I would pay the income tax which is higher then the Health care withholding system they use.

You'll already be being the VAT which goes into a tax system no less centralized than the one in the US you're avoiding.

I am not provided a choice in whether my money go to objectionable ones or other programs. I am given a choice between all or nothing. If the objection is strong enough then I must choose nothing.

Resulting in a pyrrhic pseudo-moral victory where for each dollar you're taking away from this supposed impending socialized healthcare, you're taking far more dollars away from veterans benefits, education, etc. Great.

There is no option to fund the programs I approve of and not fund the programs I disapprove of. So My choice is provide funding or not to provide funding.

And you put blinders on as to the total effect, cutting off the nose to spite the face, which benefited you for a long time. See above.

The purpose of the thread was to explore options for law degrees over seas not going to why i may want to leave the country. I was actually rather annoyed at first the thread got pulled this way.

This "way" motivated you to actually do a bit more research. You should seriously look more into the VAT, and really think about what you'll be doing to contribute, directly and indirectly, to a system more socialized than the one you're objecting to by ending contribution to a system that include vets and education.

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 12:53

My net paranoia forbids me to mention the school i am looking at, however I am limited to Texas law schools, as my second set of Veteran benefits are administered by the state of Texas and not the federal government.

It looks like Texas has a decent menu of schools for you to look at.

If none of them have an international sub-curriculum or anything that you like, you could always do an LLM in International law after you finish your JD.

If Korea is your main choice, check their international law job market and find out what skills they're looking for. Demand will likely change between now and then, but it gives you a starting point.

You'll almost certainly find more available with import/export law, copyright and trademark law, corporate law, etc.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 13:06

VAT.

yes about 30% of Korea's income comes from their VAT of about 10%.
I wish the US could do that with its sales tax.
Unprocessed Food and during certain weekends cloths are exempt from the VAT.
If I object to a countries program I can in act a partial reduction.
If I only buy cloths on tax exempt weekends I can have a very minimal contribution to any government with polices i disagree with. I would not seek overseas employment if the US had as effective of national sales tax as I could limit my contribution to revenues as a percentage of my revenues, in response polices i do not like.

Sgt Toomey

25-02-2009, 13:17

yes about 30% of Korea's income comes from their VAT of about 10%.
I wish the US could do that with its sales tax.
Unprocessed Food and during certain weekends cloths are exempt from the VAT.
If I object to a countries program I can in act a partial reduction.
If I only buy cloths on tax exempt weekends I can have a very minimal contribution to any government with polices i disagree with. I would not seek overseas employment if the US had as effective of national sales tax as I could limit my contribution to revenues as a percentage of my revenues, in response polices i do not like.

But as you've said yourself, that doesn't just effect the policies (in this case, one that hasn't even happened, and if it did happen, you'd be better able to effect change if you were here) that you object to, but a far broader (and larger) range of things that you do.

And you'd still be supporting it, just as you would in the United States.

So, in your conscientious objection, you'll have COMPLETELY withdrawn from paying for the American military, education, veterans benefits, etc, while STILL paying into socialized medicine somewhere else. It doesn't even fit your own goal.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 16:21

But as you've said yourself, that doesn't just effect the policies (in this case, one that hasn't even happened, and if it did happen, you'd be better able to effect change if you were here) that you object to, but a far broader (and larger) range of things that you do.

And you'd still be supporting it, just as you would in the United States.

So, in your conscientious objection, you'll have COMPLETELY withdrawn from paying for the American military, education, veterans benefits, etc, while STILL paying into socialized medicine somewhere else. It doesn't even fit your own goal.

I can avoid buying into the VAT. the necessities are exempt, and I can rent or buy from outside of country with the internet(yeah supposed to voluntary pay I imagine but who actually does that?)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg
Also one of the lowest tax burdens in the developed world eases my concerns by leaps and bounds.

Sarkhaan

25-02-2009, 16:26

Income tax is based largley on where you earn the income.
I have no intention of becoming a citizen. I will be an Expat. duh.
here is a selection the contract I am offered for teaching English in Korea as soon as I have a BA.

Considering the last time i was in Korea working as an English teacher that how it worked. I am going to have to go with my experience in the matter.

Yeah...in order to be an English teacher, don't you have to be able to...you know...write in said language with some level of accuracy?

greed and death

25-02-2009, 16:28

Yeah...in order to be an English teacher, don't you have to be able to...you know...write in said language with some level of accuracy?
silence grammar nazi. You have no sway over post at 4 am.

Sarkhaan

25-02-2009, 16:46

silence grammar nazi. You have no sway over post at 4 am.

It isn't only at 4 AM that your grammar isn't quite up to par for someone who has or will be teaching said grammar to others...

Gravlen

25-02-2009, 17:04

Anyways since you have a Juris Doctorate surely you can answer my original question. Is a US law degree worth anything overseas?
Go ahead and assume crossing into Civil law rather then Common law.
Still curious even if i cant avoid taxes in the host country.

The short, crude and not necessarily accurate answer is "yes, a US law degree is worth anything overseas."

My answer is short, crude and not necessarily accurate because you haven't explained what you mean by "overseas" - there's different laws in different countries regulating this question - nor have you specified what the law degree entails - have you "just" a law degree, are you specialized in any fields etc. - and finally because you haven't really explained what you mean by "worth anything" - do you want to work as a lawyer, for an American company, for a foreign company as an advisor, for a government, with international law of some kind etc.

Despite your rather wide and vague question, my answer is still yes because higher education in and by itself is worth something, and a "standard" law degree is pretty versatile. Even for someone who wants to work abroad.

Ashmoria

25-02-2009, 17:16

And its not that Obama won. Its that he has made it appear he will rush on health care.

so its a deal breaker for this country to offer everyone health insurance and to find ways to control the cost of health care but its OK to go to a country that already has nationalized medicine?

what part of nationalized medicine dont you like?

Katganistan

25-02-2009, 18:35

Apparently, paying for it.

Ryadn

25-02-2009, 18:40

silence grammar nazi. You have no sway over post at 4 am.

I don't think it was the grammar so much as the fact that you stated you were getting your BA to teach English right now, and then stated that you had already taught English before. So, are you qualified to teach English or not?

Hydesland

25-02-2009, 19:57

so you really haven't thought this through at all, have you? like nothing beyond the initial "that's it, i'm moving to cana...um, korea!"

Hence, I imagine, why he was asking NSG for.. advice?

greed and death

25-02-2009, 20:06

I don't think it was the grammar so much as the fact that you stated you were getting your BA to teach English right now, and then stated that you had already taught English before. So, are you qualified to teach English or not?

getting BA in history. I taught before with people that sort of produced a forged degree ,though now that wont work got to bring said degree to the Korean embassy/Consulate. They had a crack down on English teachers with no credentials around 2005 i think. Mostly because some English teachers threw a party and got Korean college girls to do a wet Tshirt contest and posted the pictures on their portal for Expats. Also another guy posted a how to seduce middle school and high school girls guide on the forum.
Google "English spectrum gate" for exact details.
So they are more strict then they used to be where the only requirements was being a native speaker, and the employer would forge any other requirements you needed.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 20:07

what part of nationalized medicine dont you like?

paying for it.

Hydesland

25-02-2009, 20:07

paying for it.

Why?

Psychotic Mongooses

25-02-2009, 20:09

getting BA in history. I taught before with people that sort of produced a forged degree ,though now that wont work got to bring said degree to the Korean embassy/Consulate. They had a crack down on English teachers with no credentials around 2005 i think. Mostly because some English teachers threw a party and got Korean college girls to do a wet Tshirt contest and posted the pictures on their portal for Expats. Also another guy posted a how to seduce middle school and high school girls guide on the forum.
Google "English spectrum gate" for exact details.
So they are more strict then they used to be where the only requirements was being a native speaker, and the employer would forge any other requirements you needed.

So it was more of a TEFL course you were doing in the past?

And if you're only getting a B.A in History, what has that got to do with a Law degree abroad? :confused: B.A's don't translate (that I know of) into Law degrees in most countries.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 20:13

So it was more of a TEFL course you were doing in the past?

And if you're only getting a B.A in History, what has that got to do with a Law degree abroad? :confused: B.A's don't translate (that I know of) into Law degrees in most countries.

the moving is still 4 years out. I got 4 more years of Veterans benefits to use up where i can avoid having to pay taxes.
I am looking at law school or a masters in history right now.

I got four more years at the earliest before I leave, this is the early planning stage. You all are sort of my free thought debate stage.

Psychotic Mongooses

25-02-2009, 20:18

the moving is still 4 years out. I got 4 more years of Veterans benefits to use up where i can avoid having to pay taxes.
I am looking at law school or a masters in history right now.

I got four more years at the earliest before I leave, this is the early planning stage. You all are sort of my free thought debate stage.

Oh right, right, right. Got it now.

greed and death

25-02-2009, 20:20

Oh right, right, right. Got it now.

also because this is a political debate forum its more intresting to say health care is the reason rather then there is this girl i am in love with over there.

Ashmoria

25-02-2009, 21:11

paying for it.
and you dont think youll pay for it in korea?

look, if you want to move to korea you dont have to think up some bullshit justification for it. all you have to do is move there. many people do it. i dont know why you would wait until you have a masters or doctorate instead of looking up what kind of jobs you can actually get in korea and training for one of them but i guess thats your business.

Glorious Freedonia

25-02-2009, 22:34

I guess NEOart would be the best answer to this. What would a law degree from a Us university be worth over seas? The legal systems of the US and other countries are different. But could you focus in international law/trade law and use that over seas in service of foreign countries.

If you know the language can you re educate to match the host countries laws fairly easily?

There are lots of ways that one can use their legal education abroad. However, if one wants to practice law as a lawyer in a foreign country the lawyer would need to meet the requirements to practice law of that foreign country.

There are many lawyers in the US who went to law school abroad. Typically, they need to get an LLM (masters of law degree) from an accredited US law school before they can sit for a state bar exam. I imagine that there may be similar requirements abroad for US law school grads wanting to practice law abroad.

Geniasis

25-02-2009, 22:46

also because this is a political debate forum its more intresting to say health care is the reason rather then there is this girl i am in love with over there.

The irony is that you could have saved so much face by basing your argument on the latter and not the former.

Ryadn

25-02-2009, 22:48

The irony is that you could have saved so much face by basing your argument on the latter and not the former.

If he'd thought of it sooner, he would have.

Geniasis

25-02-2009, 22:53

If he'd thought of it sooner, he would have.

Hindsight is 20/20, eh?

Knights of Liberty

25-02-2009, 23:14

greed and death

25-02-2009, 23:58

God, you're so full of crap.

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/01/14/english-spectrum-gate-continues/
that's pretty much a summary of the English spectrum gate affair

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 03:11

correct my interpretation then.
1st your never exempt from the US tax code. You can however receive exemption for 75k US (think it is 80K + now) under US tax law.

here is the tax treaty
http://www.unclefed.com/ForTaxProfs/Treaties/korea.pdf
article 20 is the relevant article on teachers. parenthesis added by me to simplify in lines to relevancy to the situation.

There is no mention of change of tax home in the treaty, the only mention is that of Exemption. That being said the treaty does not change Tax home status. Also does not mention it does not change where the income is considered to be earned. So again the treaty has no affect from IRS documents say the income comes from.

So now we go to this here IRS publication.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf
page 12.
This means If I am employed in Korea my Tax home is In Korea.

Also on page 12.
and being paraphrased because IRS pubs do not copy paste well.
three requirements to claim Foreign earned income status are:
1. your Tax home must be in a foreign country(check)
2. you must have a foreign earned income.
3. a.US citizen bonfide resident.
b. US resident bonifide resident
c. physically present
either of these three can meant the requirements. so (3 Check)

#2 is still in question. so going to page 15 we find a definition of Foreign earned income. Foreign earned income when A. your Tax home is a foreign country. and B you meet bonifide resident or physical presence test. #2 is now check.

That being said. My conclusion You teach English in Korea you are exempt from Korean Taxes, and you have an exclusion of the first 87,000 dollars you earn in Korea.
My error was assuming that what they gave to teachers was something they gave to all visiting four year degreed professionals.

Moving your tax home requires you to move your taxable residence to the new country. The tiny exerpt of Korean law you're looking may not mention that moving their subjects you to taxation, but if you're make that movement you are in fact subject to taxation. I notice, you've still not taken up my challenge. You said they know better than the actual law, so let's ask your potential employer. Should be a simple enough question.

And if you're wrong, you donate to the Obama campaign of 2012. I mean, you can't possibly be wrong, so there's no risk, right?

greed and death

26-02-2009, 03:41

Moving your tax home requires you to move your taxable residence to the new country. The tiny exerpt of Korean law you're looking may not mention that moving their subjects you to taxation, but if you're make that movement you are in fact subject to taxation.
It is a treaty which is the supreme law in the land just like in the US.
US tax code only requires passage of the physical presence test.

I notice, you've still not taken up my challenge. You said they know better than the actual law, so let's ask your potential employer. Should be a simple enough question.
And if you're wrong, you donate to the Obama campaign of 2012. I mean, you can't possibly be wrong, so there's no risk, right?

okay On the grounds that you agree to donate 100 dollars to the libertarian if you are wrong.
Email esl@hotjobkorea.com with your question?

Also put a weird word at the end of your email. So i can reference it with them. don't tell me of course.

Geniasis

26-02-2009, 03:45

It is a treaty which is the supreme law in the land just like in the US.
US tax code only requires passage of the physical presence test.

okay On the grounds that you agree to donate 100 dollars to the libertarian if you are wrong.
Email esl@hotjobkorea.com with your question?

Also put a weird word at the end of your email. So i can reference it with them. don't tell me of course.

Why doesn't he just CC you?

greed and death

26-02-2009, 03:49

Why doesn't he just CC you?

Does that involve me giving him my email address ? I like my secrecy when someone keeps screaming about sending the IRS on me for what they receive to be a tax violation. even in the right an Audit is a pain in the ass.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 03:56

It is a treaty which is the supreme law in the land just like in the US.
US tax code only requires passage of the physical presence test.

And the physical presence test requires that you move your tax home for that entire period. This has been pointed out to you.

okay On the grounds that you agree to donate 100 dollars to the libertarian if you are wrong.
Email esl@hotjobkorea.com with your question?

Dude, no problem. I'll be happy to contribute to libertarians.

You also may have missed but the original and standing offer is that you also properly pay your taxes once I show you that your tax burden remains.

Also put a weird word at the end of your email. So i can reference it with them. don't tell me of course.

Give me your email address and I'll CC you. There's going to be no bullshit behind the scenes stuff. You and I will both see exactly what I send them.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 04:00

Does that involve me giving him my email address ? I like my secrecy when someone keeps screaming about sending the IRS on me for what they receive to be a tax violation. even in the right an Audit is a pain in the ass.

A. An email address doesn't give me any information that I can't get from here other than the email address itself. The IRS won't be closer or further away to capturing you.

B. The IRS will only audit you if I'm correct, of course.

C. "keeps screaming about sending the IRS on you" is "Give me your social security number and the time you spent in Korea, and I'll hand that information over to the IRS. I'm sure they'll agree with you on this." I asked for your agreement for me to present it to the IRS. For your cooperation to do so as a demonstration you're right. It's bad enough you've lied about your motivations, your qualifications and your position, but now you're going to lie about things people can plainly see in this thread? How does that help your credibility?

Also, seriously, you're going to teach English?

Geniasis

26-02-2009, 04:03

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 04:07

Just open a gmail account for this specific email and close the account when you're done.

Of course, it's rather obvious that he wishes to do some shady crap around this. I simply want to send a geniune question to these employers and ask them whether or not their employees are expected to pay taxes. They will be well aware those employees are not making over 82K and they if they are exempt according to the law cited by our friend, they'll owe nothing.

greed and death

26-02-2009, 04:08

And the physical presence test requires that you move your tax home for that entire period. This has been pointed out to you.

incorrect the tax code I listed clearly states living in the country for 330 days out of a year, is the only requirement of the physical presence test.
you keep making this more complicated then need be. produce a change of tax home form, it doesn't exist. your Tax home is determined by where you earn you income. Exclusion of 87,000 dollars this year is met by earning an income from overseas and living for 330 days.

Dude, no problem. I'll be happy to contribute to libertarians.

You also may have missed but the original and standing offer is that you also properly pay your taxes once I show you that your tax burden remains.

done

Give me your email address and I'll CC you. There's going to be no bullshit behind the scenes stuff. You and I will both see exactly what I send them.
sent you my email.

Hydesland

26-02-2009, 04:10

This is such a ridiculous thing to argue over.

greed and death

26-02-2009, 04:11

This is such a ridiculous thing to argue over.

silence!!! i am getting 100 dollars for cash strapped libertarians.

Hydesland

26-02-2009, 04:14

silence!!! i am getting 100 dollars for cash strapped libertarians.

Either that, or you're gonna have to pay more taxes, or something.

Sarkhaan

26-02-2009, 04:14

silence!!! i am getting 100 dollars for Obama.

fixed.

Interstellar Planets

26-02-2009, 04:15

If I ever find myself contemplating suicide, this is the thread I'll use to convince myself to jump...

Are you people really making bets about whether he can evade his taxes or not?! Just let him leave your country - he'll figure it out when he gets to Korea!

greed and death

26-02-2009, 04:17

Either that, or you're gonna have to pay more taxes, or something.

yeah. that is a chance i am willing to take

greed and death

26-02-2009, 04:18

fixed.

technically it would be giving to, if that were the case.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 04:19

incorrect the tax code I listed clearly states living in the country for 330 days out of a year, is the only requirement of the physical presence test.
you keep making this more complicated then need be. produce a change of tax home form, it doesn't exist. your Tax home is determined by where you earn you income. Exclusion of 87,000 dollars this year is met by earning an income from overseas and living for 330 days.

done

sent you my email.

It also requires that your TAX HOME be in another country. That's what page 12 says. Now, what does that mean. Well, let me help you.

If you expect your employment away from home in a single location to last, and it does last, for 1 year or less, it is temporary unless facts and circumstances indicate otherwise.

From Page 13. Now if you look just before that it makes it clear, as I told you, that your expenses are not considered income. This is a good thing for you and for people like me who travel for their jobs. It also means you are not qualified for the exemption.

Free Soviets

26-02-2009, 04:22

This is such a ridiculous thing to argue over.

i've seen worse

Geniasis

26-02-2009, 04:23

i've seen worse

No you haven't.

Well that was easy to top.

greed and death

26-02-2009, 04:31

It also requires that your TAX HOME be in another country. That's what page 12 says. Now, what does that mean. Well, let me help you.

If you expect your employment away from home in a single location to last, and it does last, for 1 year or less, it is temporary unless facts and circumstances indicate otherwise.

From Page 13. Now if you look just before that it makes it clear, as I told you, that your expenses are not considered income. This is a good thing for you and for people like me who travel for their jobs. It also means you are not qualified for the exemption.

Except page 12 also says your tax home is where you are employed run a business, or are stationed, regardless of where you maintain family home.
that is the definition of tax home.
the examples your quoting are for if an employer(state side) you work for assigns you overseas, because technically you are still earning the income in the states. If my Job is with a company in Korea my Tax home is in Korea.

Anyways i sent you my email. send the email to esl@hotjobkorea.com

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 04:32

I’m wondering you could answer a question or two about the employment opportunities you offer. I was looking at one of the offers that talks about living in temporary housing provided by you for a contract period of one year. It talks about collecting a small amount of taxes that you return to Canadian residents. A friend of mine is interested and I’m simply trying to ensure that he carefully considers everything about the position.

It appears to me that the position is set up to ensure that my friend is not considered to have moved his residence and thus will not be taxed on the expenses incurred from travel or on the value of the housing that you provide. It is my understanding that this requires that he not remain for a period of over one year so that it is considered a temporary residence. Is it true that the housing and travel expense are not taxable as income due to his status as a resident in the US?

My second question is about the taxes you collect. My understanding is that due to the temporary status of his residence in Korea, that he will be expected to pay taxes in his home country of the US. Is it your understanding that your employees will be expected to meet their tax burdens in their home countries? I’m sure you’ve had many, many employees coming from the US. Do they end up paying taxes on their income?

I realize my friend would do well to consult a tax attorney, but I’m hoping this will become more clear with a little direction from your company. I assume this is something you regularly deal with and as such can help avoid going afoul of the law or creating a problem for himself with either Korea or the US.

Thanks for your time and your attention,

Eric * ********

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 04:34

Except page 12 also says your tax home is where you are employed run a business, or are stationed, regardless of where you maintain family home.
that is the definition of tax home.
the examples your quoting are for if an employer(state side) you work for assigns you overseas, because technically you are still earning the income in the states. If my Job is with a company in Korea my Tax home is in Korea.

Yeah, but that doesn't change the context. You have to read the whole thing. According to the law, the same law that explains tax home, you are a not eligible. You don't get to pick and choose. They list an exception to what you're quoting. That exception is what you fall into.

"The location of your tax home often depends on whether your assignment is temporary or indefinite. If you are temporarily absent from your tax home in the United States on business, you may figure the exclusion. family, you probably have established a bona
be able to deduct your away-from-home expenses (for travel, meals, and lodging), but you would not qualify for the foreign earned income."

I've demonstrated that you qualify as temporary. It says CLEARLY you do not qualify. It's not questionable. If you residence is temporary as defined, you don't qualify.

Ract

26-02-2009, 04:34

silence!!! i am getting 100 dollars for cash strapped libertarians.

ideologically wouldnt libertarians prefer to make their own money?

greed and death

26-02-2009, 04:36

did you CC it ?

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 04:46

did you CC it ?

I wanted to show it to you first. I haven't hit send yet. You cool with it?

Keep in mind, they may say this is your deal to deal with. In which case, I'm actually going to contact a tax lawyer, since it will technically be you paying for it. To pretty much anyone with a college-level understanding of English, it's clear that it says that you are a temporary resident if your stay is scheduled to be 1 year or less, yours is. It is equally evident that if your stay is temporary you don't qualify, but you are exempt from paying taxes on the travel expenses paid for by the company.

greed and death

26-02-2009, 04:51

Sarkhaan

26-02-2009, 05:09

greed and death

26-02-2009, 05:11

Be so kind as to post her response when it arrives. I should have put in a a clause that the she send her response to me as well.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 05:14

*deep breath*

AWWWWWW

Jocabia looooooooooove you, greed.

NS and tax law: bringing people together for the last 15 minutes or so.

Honestly, I want to be right, but I also don't want for some young guy to create a problem for himself because he didn't think something through. I think it's apparent that he didn't think this through. This really is a bad idea for a ton of reasons. He's going to make about 26K. The tax burden he would potentially avoid just isn't worth it.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 05:15

Be so kind as to post her response when it arrives. I should have put in a a clause that the she send her response to me as well.

People usually reply all, but I will make sure s/he sends to you directly if s/he doesn't.

greed and death

26-02-2009, 05:18

Honestly, I want to be right, but I also don't want for some young guy to create a problem for himself because he didn't think something through. I think it's apparent that he didn't think this through. This really is a bad idea for a ton of reasons. He's going to make about 26K. The tax burden he would potentially avoid just isn't worth it.

less then that at the moment with the currency drop of the Korean won. though it should shoot back up almost always does.
but that's 26k for 25 hours a week. it is very easy to earn in the mid 40's if you tutor(though got to be careful it is technically illegal and you can get deported for it) on the side.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 05:21

less then that at the moment with the currency drop of the Korean won. though it should shoot back up almost always does.
but that's 26k for 25 hours a week. it is very easy to earn in the mid 40's if you tutor(though got to be careful it is technically illegal and you can get deported for it) on the side.

My point was that it's a very small tax burden and avoiding it is not worth it. I'm not trying to give the impression it's not enough money or anything.

And, once again, you demonstrate you don't really give a shit what is legal or what isn't. If it puts money in your pocket, then following the law isn't really of interest to you, right, consciencious objecter?

greed and death

26-02-2009, 05:32

My point was that it's a very small tax burden and avoiding it is not worth it. I'm not trying to give the impression it's not enough money or anything.

And, once again, you demonstrate you don't really give a shit what is legal or what isn't. If it puts money in your pocket, then following the law isn't really of interest to you, right, consciencious objecter?

There are a lot of times people break the law.
How many college kids who tutor high school kids report that as income.
Should babysitters report their income to the IRS?
Should Garage sales be forced to apply Sales Tax?
How many people with in the US voluntarily applied the sales tax for good purchased over the internet like they are supposed to ?

It is a silly law(when applied to teachers) that states I can only work for my employer, its intended to keep 3rd world workers in Korea from running off and doing day labor, and was never intended to prevent academic exchange between a teacher and student in a 1 on 1 environment. silly laws should be ignored.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 05:44

There are a lot of times people break the law.
How many college kids who tutor high school kids report that as income.
Should babysitters report their income to the IRS?
Should Garage sales be forced to apply Sales Tax?
How many people with in the US voluntarily applied the sales tax for good purchased over the internet like they are supposed to ?

It is a silly law(when applied to teachers) that states I can only work for my employer, its intended to keep 3rd world workers in Korea from running off and doing day labor, and was never intended to prevent academic exchange between a teacher and student in a 1 on 1 environment. silly laws should be ignored.

"Other people do it too."

Like I said, it's funny how you keep admitting your lack of respect for the rule of law. I'm sure I'm not the only one laughing giving the nonsense CO argument you've made throughout the thread.

greed and death

26-02-2009, 05:47

"Other people do it too."

Like I said, it's funny how you keep admitting your lack of respect for the rule of law. I'm sure I'm not the only one laughing giving the nonsense CO argument you've made throughout the thread.

to my knowledge the vast majority of people do it too.
I also find a difference between the spirit of the law, and the letter of the law.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 05:54

to my knowledge the vast majority of people do it too.
I also find a difference between the spirit of the law, and the letter of the law.

No you don't. You're trying to use the letter of the law (badly) to try and avoid paying taxes they intended you to pay. The spirit of the exemption is to prevent you from paying taxes twice, not to allow you to avoid it altogether.

You're flopping all over the place. What IS consistent is that you don't want to pay the money you owe, but you DO want to benefit from and exploit the governments you don't want to support with money.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 09:14

Alright so let's look at the replies.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 09:15

Here are the answers for your questions

1. Is it true that the housing and travel expense are not taxable as income due to his status as a resident in the US ?

- The employees will not be expected to pay taxes on the housing and travel expenses.

As the employers offer housing and travel expenses due to the contract, the employers are responsible for those.

2. Is it your understanding that your employees will be expected to meet their tax burdens in their home countries?

- You are exempt from taxes under 87,000 USD while holding E-2 visa in Korea . So the employees will not be expected to meet their tax burdens in their home countries at all.

Best regards,

JoEun

-------------------

Well, crap it looks like I'm gonna have to pay money to the Libertarians. But since I hadn't asked, I asked if my friend would have to pay taxes in Korea.

Jocabia

26-02-2009, 09:17

Hi,

Yes. The employees have to pay taxes on only their SALARY in Korea .

And E-2 visa is only issued for a year contract between the employers and employees.

After the period of one year contract, the employees may have to go back to their countries or extend their contract with the employers. This way E-2 visa will be newly issued.

If there was any problem caused regarding to this, I am sure this has been big issued. But there was none so far. Many of foreign teachers who worked at even public school didn’t have any problem with this.

Hope your friend got enough information about this issue.

JoEun
-----------------------------------------------
So, basically, yes, you'll be paying taxes. In Korea. Make sure you send that 100 dollars to Obama before the next campaign. Also, it looks like I won't have to force you to pay Korean taxes, because you're gonna be force to pay them by your employer. You're welcome.

Gravlen

26-02-2009, 23:00

Wut?

Jocabia

27-02-2009, 01:00

Wut?

I bet him that if I asked the employer that they'd say he has to pay taxes one place or another. They said he'll have to pay taxes in Korea. So now he has to contribute to the 2012 Obama campaign. Hehe.

Hammurab

27-02-2009, 01:36

I bet him that if I asked the employer that they'd say he has to pay taxes one place or another. They said he'll have to pay taxes in Korea. So now he has to contribute to the 2012 Obama campaign. Hehe.

I've decided I can't, in good conscience, support our governments use of nuclear technology.

So I'm moving to France.

Jocabia

27-02-2009, 01:51

I've decided I can't, in good conscience, support our governments use of nuclear technology.

So I'm moving to France.

I can't in good consience support our goverments support of electronics companies. i'm moving to Japan.

(You forgot the mispellings and bad grammar.)

Hammurab

27-02-2009, 01:52

I can't in good consience support our goverments support of electronics companies. i'm moving to Japan.

(You forgot the mispellings and bad grammar.)

i'm sorry, I was impassioned.

Jocabia

27-02-2009, 02:02

i'm sorry, I was impassioned.

Don't worry. Mistakes don't count when you're impassioned.

Hammurab

27-02-2009, 02:05

Don't worry. Mistakes don't count when you're impassioned.

Anyway, there's just this French girl I like. And there's a difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.

Seriously, I remember friends telling me I was a jackass for reporting my income from when I was in Japan. I guess I'm just not conscientious enough.

Ashmoria

27-02-2009, 02:18

i still think its a mistake to go to law school if what you really want to do is move to korea. get an MBA instead with an emphasis on international business and start sending out resumes.

Sgt Toomey

27-02-2009, 02:22

i still think its a mistake to go to law school if what you really want to do is move to korea. get an MBA instead with an emphasis on international business and start sending out resumes.

Yeah, s'truth. All the schtick about "Oh, a JD can do anything" is what they say to calm down 1L's when they hear about friends doing doc review for three years after graduation.

A JD from an ABA accredited school gets you into the Bar Exam, to practice Law. A lot of its study (at least where I'm at) is focused strongly on that. If that's not your plan, US Law School may not be sagacious.

Ashmoria

27-02-2009, 03:30

Yeah, s'truth. All the schtick about "Oh, a JD can do anything" is what they say to calm down 1L's when they hear about friends doing doc review for three years after graduation.

A JD from an ABA accredited school gets you into the Bar Exam, to practice Law. A lot of its study (at least where I'm at) is focused strongly on that. If that's not your plan, US Law School may not be sagacious.
yeah it takes 3 years and at the end youre not a lawyer. you have to study for the bar exam. well isnt that wonderful when you pass it but....what good does that do you in korea?

better to take an MBA and get to the job you really want. especially if it turns out that your korean sweetheart has found it impossible to wait that long for her american darling.

Hydesland

27-02-2009, 03:55

Like I said, it's funny how you keep admitting your lack of respect for the rule of law. I'm sure I'm not the only one laughing giving the nonsense CO argument you've made throughout the thread.

That's pretty silly. I don't give a shit about loads of laws, for instance certain music copyright laws, hence my downloading of music. That doesn't mean I have a general disrespect for the rule of law. Didn't one of the lawyers here say that the average person breaks at least three laws a day?

Jocabia

27-02-2009, 04:04

That's pretty silly. I don't give a shit about loads of laws, for instance certain music copyright laws, hence my downloading of music. That doesn't mean I have a general disrespect for the rule of law. Didn't one of the lawyers here say that the average person breaks at least three laws a day?

Actually, yes it does. If you feel like you can decide which laws to follow and which to not follow, then you don't, in fact, have a general respect for the rule of law.

I don't care what one of the lawyers said, frankly. Also, I place a GIANT difference between intentionally breaking the law or accidentally doing it. In fact, I'd be okay if it was in protest. But what it really is, with you, with him, is that you're trying to prevent paying for things you are not obligated to pay for, but that you've gained advantage from. It's a fairly consistent disrespect for both the rule of law and the social contract.

Hydesland

27-02-2009, 04:09

If you feel like you can decide which laws to follow and which to not follow

Of course you can decide this, even if there are repercussions.

Hydesland

27-02-2009, 04:12

Also, I place a GIANT difference between intentionally breaking the law or accidentally doing it. In fact, I'd be okay if it was in protest. But what it really is, with you, with him, is that you're trying to prevent paying for things you are not obligated to pay for, but that you've gained advantage from. It's a fairly consistent disrespect for both the rule of law and the social contract.

So for instance Mohammad Ali, when he deliberately refused to 'serve his country', has disrespect for both the rule of law and the social contract? Anyone who downloads music (that's probably about 9 tenths of this forum) has a disrespect for the rule of law and the social contract?

Jocabia

27-02-2009, 04:12

Of course you can decide this, even if there are repercussions.

You really suck at being contrary. No joke. This really is awful.

Yes, there are repercussion, which has nothing to do with what you originally said.

I'm sure you have a cogent argument in there somewhere. How about you present it, rather than whatever this is supposed to be?

Hydesland

27-02-2009, 04:17

I'm sure you have a cogent argument in there somewhere. How about you present it, rather than whatever this is supposed to be?

You CAN decide which laws to follow and which laws not to. It r fact, I know this because of my learnings.

Jocabia

27-02-2009, 04:47

You CAN decide which laws to follow and which laws not to. It r fact, I know this because of my learnings.

And who argued otherwise, pray tell.

The Cat-Tribe

27-02-2009, 05:05

I guess NEOart would be the best answer to this. What would a law degree from a Us university be worth over seas? The legal systems of the US and other countries are different. But could you focus in international law/trade law and use that over seas in service of foreign countries.

If you know the language can you re educate to match the host countries laws fairly easily?

I have never tried working outside the U.S. and my knowledge on this subject is limited.

I would emphasize that, like other degrees, a law degree conveys not just a body of knowledge, but also a body of skills. I would think the latter would serve one well anywhere and would be as (if not more) useful than any other degree for one that wanted to practice law internationally.

The following websites might be helpful to consult:
http://www.abanet.org/lpm/lpt/articles/mkt10081.shtml
http://www.abanet.org/intlaw/pathways_eventform.html
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/743697.html

Pope Lando II

27-02-2009, 07:05

So for instance Mohammad Ali, when he deliberately refused to 'serve his country', has disrespect for both the rule of law and the social contract? Anyone who downloads music (that's probably about 9 tenths of this forum) has a disrespect for the rule of law and the social contract?

I shed a single tear every time I see my face in the mirror, knowing that it's the face of someone who has downloaded music. :(

Jocabia

27-02-2009, 08:32

And what do you know, greed and death hasn't returned to admit he was wrong and that he lost the bet. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

greed and death

27-02-2009, 10:14

And what do you know, greed and death hasn't returned to admit he was wrong and that he lost the bet. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

sorry. studying for an exam tomorrow look at stuff when i have time.
Got to research some Brazilian primary documents at UT. so wont have a chance to take a fine tooth comb over everything till Monday.

Sarkhaan

27-02-2009, 14:34

So for instance Mohammad Ali, when he deliberately refused to 'serve his country', has disrespect for both the rule of law and the social contract? Anyone who downloads music (that's probably about 9 tenths of this forum) has a disrespect for the rule of law and the social contract?

You're going to compare a man who actually was a conscientious objector to a group of people who have come up with some rather tenuous rationalizations for stealing?

Jocabia

02-03-2009, 08:17

You're going to compare a man who actually was a conscientious objector to a group of people who have come up with some rather tenuous rationalizations for stealing?

So I'm not the only one who noticed that, huh?

The lengths that people will go to make it seem like theft is somehow a crusade to change the world. It's just theft.

Free Soviets

02-03-2009, 08:48

You're going to compare a man who actually was a conscientious objector to a group of people who have come up with some rather tenuous rationalizations for stealing?

if the claim is that one who intentionally breaks particular laws has a general disrespect for law, then yes, conscientious objectors make an excellent test case and counter-example.

Geniasis

02-03-2009, 08:59

if the claim is that one who intentionally breaks particular laws has a general disrespect for law, then yes, conscientious objectors make an excellent test case and counter-example.

But if our system has created a special exemption for conscientious objectors, then doesn't that mean that they don't fit into that general disrespect?

Jocabia

02-03-2009, 15:22

if the claim is that one who intentionally breaks particular laws has a general disrespect for law, then yes, conscientious objectors make an excellent test case and counter-example.

The thing that is difference about conscientious objectors is that they believe in there cause enough that they're willing to face the consequences of their actions. That is a respect for law, and it's why our system treats them differently. That is respect for the law, even if they disagree with some particular laws.

Free Soviets

02-03-2009, 18:05

The thing that is difference about conscientious objectors is that they believe in there cause enough that they're willing to face the consequences of their actions. That is a respect for law, and it's why our system treats them differently. That is respect for the law, even if they disagree with some particular laws.

ok, so there are two additional parts at work then - the willingness to suffer consequences for disagreement with particular laws and already agreed upon differential treatment. it seems to me that you are probably going to want to hold the former much more strongly than the latter, as we only really have differential treatment for objectors for a small set of laws and only covering a small range of objections. but that doesn't look very relevant to the person's overall respect for law - perhaps the law just hasn't caught up to where it ought be in regards to what sorts of objections should be allowed, or something.

which leaves the issue of willingness to face punishment. i agree that that shows dedication to and sincerity of the belief that particular law x is wrong. however, it is also something of a privileged position - not everybody can afford to abandon their family to go to jail for a couple years, for example. it seems to me that we can capture the spirit of "i respect the law in general, but law x is wrong and one ought not obey wrong laws" merely by looking at something more like sincerity of belief (as opposed to the self-serving ideal of the thief that wants their stuff protected). and therefore being willing to go to jail for it is only one way of demonstrating that sincerity. just ignoring the particular law while living an otherwise law-abiding life and actively agitating for change would seem to be another.

Gravlen

02-03-2009, 21:50

I bet him that if I asked the employer that they'd say he has to pay taxes one place or another. They said he'll have to pay taxes in Korea. So now he has to contribute to the 2012 Obama campaign. Hehe.

I didn't understand why you seemingly posted two e-mail replies... :p

Jocabia

03-03-2009, 02:02

I didn't understand why you seemingly posted two e-mail replies... :p

Now you do.

Gravlen

03-03-2009, 19:46

Now you do.

Actually, I don't. The last pages were tl;dr, so I, much like Greed and death apparently, haven't really read any posts past where you quoted the email. :p

greed and death

03-03-2009, 21:29

Jocabia

04-03-2009, 02:56

Sorry for late reply. had to go to UT and conduct research for Latin American history at the Benson collection. then Sunday my car broke down.

Jocabia you've lost. 3 reasons.

1st. you send one email. you don't get to keep sending emails until you get an answer you think is right.
2nd. you didn't approve the second question through me like you did the first.
3rd. the scenario presented has lead the school to think your friend is applying for a Hakwon position (cram school). Cram school positions are not tax exempt. I would have a masters degree when i take the job and would hence teach at a university.

Ha. So the bet was that you have to pay taxes. They said you have to pay taxes. But I lost because I asked them so they would be specific.

Dude, don't pay up on the bet if you don't want to, but you will pay taxes to Korea if you take the position and you will support the very type of "socialized" medicine you're objecting to. Whether or not you admit you're welching on the bet, you're wrong about paying taxes.

The scenario has the actual position in the subject line. The position was the one you said you were taking. You know this because you were cc'ed on the original email, the one that showed the EXACT position you told me to use. This has gotten really sad. You can be as dishonest as you like, but your claims have been thoroughly laid to rest.

Jocabia

08-03-2009, 02:49

Well, what do you know. Irrefutable proof that you're going to have to pay taxes into a system that has a more 'socialized' system than Obama is proposing and you never owned up to it. That's totally shocking. Ayup.

Everyone, everyone, who read this thread is fully aware that you are just throwing a fit about Obama and you haven't thought it through at all. When challenged you made up what you know. And now it's been proven you're wrong. It's really that simple. Your objections to the email show that you're not interested in finding out the truth. One of your objections denies that you know we told them what job, another says it "doesn't count" because I asked for a clarification, that gave us clear direction that you'll have to pay taxes, the last admits you'd likely not want the same clarification. That's not debate. You're trying to win an argument you know you're wrong in.

NationStates Jolt Archive

US Law degree. Worth anything overseas ?