NationStates Jolt Archive

So influenced by a discussion with TAI earlier, I decided to quickly be a massive nerd and make a ven diagram about what the word liberal can apply to, but then I decided I could easily expand this to general political ideologies, so am now left with this:

Edit: Updated diagram
Edit2: Completely redone diagram:

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8342/politicalvenn3.jpg


Previous versions

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6393/politicalven2.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8738/politicalven.jpg


What do you guys thing? I know it needs some work - for instance, I can't think of any authoritarian ideologies to put in there. But do you think this is accurate? If not, what would you change.

Cummon guys, I know you find this pedantic stuff incredibly interesting!

I need shiny colours, clickable pop-ups, it's just so boring, I can't muster any enthusiasm for it.

I give you a D- for lack of effort.

Sorry.

I need shiny colours, clickable pop-ups, it's just so boring, I can't muster any enthusiasm for it.

I give you a D- for lack of effort.

Sorry.

:p

It's not about how cool it looks, I'm just not sure if anyone has modelled political ideologies like this before, I think it could be pretty useful as it can be expanded greatly.

I just realized how little I care about fixed political ideologies lol. .. I have terrible timing.

i think there are certain forms of 'libertarianism' that fall outside of the bounds of liberalism, even broadly construed. those that more or less explicitly recreate feudal-ish relations, for example.

i think there are certain forms of 'libertarianism' that fall outside of the bounds of liberalism, even broadly construed. those that more or less explicitly recreate feudal-ish relations, for example.

True, but is there any specific terms that can apply to this?

Cummon guys, I know you find this pedantic stuff incredibly interesting!

Only when it's spelled correctly (it's "venn").

My pedantry > your pedantry. :D

Only when it's spelled correctly (it's "venn").


ffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Umm, venn diagrams doesn't really fit political positions that well... I'd say a political venn diagram would suit this much better:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7153/politicalvenn.png

Take it with as many grains of salt as needed. <_<

Very good, although you forgot 'baby eating Satan worshipers' in the topmost liberal section.:D

Very good, although you forgot 'baby eating Satan worshipers' in the topmost liberal section.:D

ssshhh, us liberals heathens don't believe in satan! :p

Take it with as many grains of salt as needed. <_<

Heh, that's pretty good

So influenced by a discussion with TAI earlier, I decided to quickly be a massive nerd and make a ven diagram about what the word liberal can apply to, but then I decided I could easily expand this to general political ideologies, so am now left with this:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8738/politicalven.jpg

What do you guys thing? I know it needs some work - for instance, I can't think of any authoritarian ideologies to put in there. But do you think this is accurate? If not, what would you change.
Well, economically....you could do mercantalism.

Mercantalism:

Role of the state in the economy: Much state ownership or direction; small welfare state

Role of the market: Limited

State capacity and autonomy: High

Importance of Equality: Low

How is policy made: State

Possible Flaws: Can tend toward authoritarianism; can distory market

Examples: Japan, South Korea, India

I'll get back to the rest later, busy with German. I gotta go do stuff I hate. Being miserable builds character, or so they say. :p

Kind of looks like the current political compass...but with circles instead of x-y axes.

Well, economically....you could do mercantalism.
-snip-

Hmm, thing is, a central point of mercantalism is its foreign economic policy. I'm really not sure how I would add that dimension to this diagram. Without the foreign policy element, it seems similar to neoconservative.

Hmm, thing is, a central point of mercantalism is its foreign economic policy. I'm really not sure how I would add that dimension to this diagram. Without the foreign policy element, it seems similar to neoconservative.
Not just. Mercantalism is more of private business and the government getting in bed together. It's an economically competitive, profititable system (sometimes) that isn't just about foreign economic policy but the attitude towards the state's role in society in that it controls, or attemps to control, all or most economic aspects of the state. It's about the government dictating and shaping the the economy of the state, and then letting private business carry out those demands. For example, high tariffs and trade barriers which keep foreign products out, while subsidizing areas that the government wants produced in the country, but building an entire economy around these protectionist policies. It's about pushing companies into a direction with force that (supporters of Mercantalism say) the market can't do or would be too slow to do on it's own.

For example, high tariffs and trade barriers which keep foreign products out, while subsidizing areas that the government wants produced in the country, but building an entire economy around these protectionist policies.

Yeah, but I count these as economic foreign policies.


It's about pushing companies into a direction with force that (supporters of Mercantalism say) the market can't do or would be too slow to do on it's own.

Hmm, it's possibly a mix between statist, authoritarian and capitalist ideologies. I think you could possibly call it fascist in a sense as well.

Where would Meritocracy fall in this figure? Or would it break it with logic?

Where would Meritocracy fall in this figure? Or would it break it with logic?

I would say that it would be a statist type of ideology.

Yeah, but I count these as economic foreign policies.
There is such thing as a domestic economy and under a Mercantalist policy the domestic economy is put under the pressure of the state.


Hmm, it's possibly a mix between statist, authoritarian and capitalist ideologies. I think you could possibly call it fascist in a sense as well.
It is exactly the economic policy of fascism.

That's why, in some senses, it's acceptable to call modern China the fascist state of the 21st century.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sgabriel/321forum/messages/41.html

An interesting read.

I've updated to include fascism/mercantilism and tribalism/feudalism

Don't forget theocracy.With the possible exception of tibet, it's so far into authopritarianism you'd have to extend it off the bottom. ;(

Kind of looks like the current political compass...but with circles instead of x-y axes.

I kinda thought so too.

What do you guys thing? I know it needs some work - for instance, I can't think of any authoritarian ideologies to put in there. But do you think this is accurate? If not, what would you change.

I think it's crap. :p

I'm personally quite liberal - social freedoms wise - however I'm in favour of strong government.

In your graph I'd need two dots to represent me.

Politically I'd probably identify myself as a socialdemocrat in current political climate but the ideal form - an utopia - of rulership would undoubtedly be autocracy by an enlightened dictator.


One improvement regarding the graph would be to replace "liberal" with "anarchy" which is the true political antipode of "authoritarian" and then adjust other circles around the new graph.

One improvement regarding the graph would be to replace "liberal" with "anarchy" which is the true political antipode of "authoritarian" and then adjust other circles around the new graph.

um, its a venn diagram, not a cartesian plot

um, its a venn diagram, not a cartesian plot
True, but liberal & authoritarian can in my opinion overlap - While anarchy would be (mostly) independent of authoritarian.

edit:
Consider, for example, a society where you'd be free to do (practically) everything you like but in case of various disputes you could ask for a decision by an ultimate, unquestionable and enlightened authority.

The ultimate liberal/authoritarian hybrid where the level of "liberal" and "authoritarian" would depend on the individual, group or community him-, her- or themselves.

So influenced by a discussion with TAI earlier, I decided to quickly be a massive nerd and make a ven diagram about what the word liberal can apply to...

But do you think this is accurate? If not, what would you change.

wikipedia:
Venn diagrams or set diagrams are diagrams that show all hypothetically possible logical relations between a finite collection of sets (groups of things). Venn diagrams were invented[citation needed] around 1880 by John Venn.

Remember poor John Venn.

Anyway, it seems fairly accurate to me. Are you sure, though, that a 3d representation (like the colour sphere), wouldn't be easier to read?

edit: no, wait. Egalitarian/marxist and free market/capitalist should have a non-void intersection, to allow classification of liberal centrists (like the '50s Democrazia Cristiana in Italy), democratic centrists (60's DC), or of authoritarian centrists (like Fascism).

looks pretty good, a nice take on the spectrum we're used to (ie its not new, but i like your spin on it).

are you sure feudalism should be that high up? surely its a lot more authoritarian than not? i'm also thinking the left (opposite free market/capitalist) should be labelled 'planned economy' or something, and marxism be an area subset of that?

i'm also thinking the left (opposite free market/capitalist) should be labelled 'planned economy' or something, and marxism be an area subset of that?

Looks reasonable.

I think it's crap. :p

I'm personally quite liberal - social freedoms wise - however I'm in favour of strong government.

In your graph I'd need two dots to represent me.


It's not a graph, but I'm making a new one now.

Neocons, free market capitalists? Ha!

Alright, I've made a new one, but I'm stuck for names of ideologies in many of the segments. Here are the ones I need to know:

Democratic, completely planned economy, socially conservative
Authoritarian, planned economy, socially liberal
Authoritarian, unplanned economy, socially liberal
Authoritarian, mixed economy, socially liberal

Also, I would like a better term than neoconservative and conservative, but can't think of one.

Umm, venn diagrams doesn't really fit political positions that well... I'd say a political venn diagram would suit this much better:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7153/politicalvenn.png

Take it with as many grains of salt as needed. <_<
Nah, Mugabe is all 3 and Cheney is as corrupt and evil as they come. C'mon.

in the upper left, between Planned Economy and Democratic, there is an unlabeled section of red. it's mirrored by Conservative.. just wondering if there is a label for it?