NationStates Jolt Archive

Man Defends Himself - One Criminal Dies (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/21/BAI4161N0D.DTL)

Once again, the relatives of the dead criminal blame the innocent guy who defends himself...

(02-20) 11:29 PST OAKLAND -- A 23-year-old visitor from the East Coast had just gotten money from an ATM when he told his friend on a cell phone that he had a bad feeling about two men approaching him at the Fruitvale BART Station in Oakland.

His worst fears were realized when one suspect, Victor Veliz, 18, held a folding knife with a 5-inch blade to his neck and the other, Christopher Gonzalez, 18, threatened to shoot him Thursday night, authorities said.

In a blind panic, he lashed out at his attackers, grabbing the knife from one of them and punching the other as his friend listened in horror on the phone.

Without realizing it, authorities say, the man stabbed Gonzalez in the chest. Gonzalez stumbled to his family's home around the corner, collapsed into his father's arms and died.

Veliz, who is affiliated with a gang, was arrested at Gonzalez's home after police allegedly found him with the East Coast visitor's cell phone. He will be charged with murder in the death of his accomplice, along with a robbery count, prosecutors said.

The robbery victim suffered only cuts in fighting off his assailants. He ran from the station, flagged down an Oakland police officer on Fruitvale Avenue and turned over the bloody knife. His name was not released.

The man was "scared senseless" when he was attacked about 9:30 p.m. Thursday, said Allison Danzig, an Alameda County deputy district attorney. He acted in self-defense and will not be charged, she said.

When police told him that Gonzalez had died, "he was very saddened and very upset," Danzig said.

Gonzalez's father, Javier Gonzalez, said Friday that his son had cried out for his parents and sister when he burst into his home on San Leandro Street. He died there.

Javier Gonzalez sobbed at the loss of his son, who worked with him in his roofing business and at Oakland Raiders games.

"I'm angry at both of them," he said of the robbery victim and Veliz. "They took my son away from me. He was a hard-working kid."

He added, "My son is dead. I want somebody to pay for this."



Oh, really? Perhaps we should start with Dad, who was obviously clueless about the nature of his son's chosen career. Hard-working? I suppose, if your son is in the habit of pointing guns at people and robbing them, that counts as "hard-working" in that neighborhood.

As far as I'm concerned, the taxpayers have been saved an enormous amount of money.

[Oh, really? Perhaps we should start with Dad, who was obviously clueless about the nature of his son's chosen career. Hard-working? I suppose, if your son is in the habit of pointing guns at people and robbing them, that counts as "hard-working" in that neighborhood.

Children should not be controlled so much. *William Tell Overture plays*

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/recording/pix/clockwork-orange2.jpg

People always desire vengeance, even if they were in the wrong themselves. Actually, especially if they were in the wrong.

While this guy won't get his, a sad thing is that the concept of vengeance is heavily built into the law practice, for instance with existence of prison terms for offenses conducted without intent.

I think the kid already reaped what he sowed. But I don't think this idea is rare.

I'm not sure what this thread is supposed to be about.

About how Hispanics consider crime to be demanding but important labour?

About how parents feel angry when their child dies?

I'm not sure what this thread is supposed to be about.

About how Hispanics consider crime to be demanding but important labour?

About how parents feel angry when their child dies?

About how one more stupid person has been eliminated by natural selection before he could breed. And about how his parents are completely stupid.

About how one more stupid person has been eliminated by natural selection before he could breed. And about how his parents are completely stupid.

Why so serious?

Why so serious?

It was just another news story until I read his stupid father's stupid beliefs about his son.

Why so serious?

He's upset he didn't get the oscar.

Man Defends Himself - One Criminal Dies (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/21/BAI4161N0D.DTL)

Once again, the relatives of the dead criminal blame the innocent guy who defends himself...



Oh, really? Perhaps we should start with Dad, who was obviously clueless about the nature of his son's chosen career. Hard-working? I suppose, if your son is in the habit of pointing guns at people and robbing them, that counts as "hard-working" in that neighborhood.

As far as I'm concerned, the taxpayers have been saved an enormous amount of money.
what point are you trying to make?

what point are you trying to make?

That the parents of young criminals appear to be utterly clueless about their own offspring.

About how one more stupid person has been eliminated by natural selection before he could breed. And about how his parents are completely stupid.

Then you fail.

Accidentally getting stabbed with a knife has nothing to do with your intelligence. If an innocent bystander had been stabbed, would we exclaim about how stupid they are?

And he wasn't eliminated by natural selection,. It was blind luck. The victim didn't even try to kill him. So, unless you believe there is some genetic or environmental aspect to luck, there is no connection to natural selection.

And he may even have bred before being stabbed.

And you know nothing about the parents' intelligence levels. Th emost you could say that is that the father may have been blind to his son's failings. Something common to many parents.

Threat reaction protocol:

1. Remove weapon from assailant's posession
2. Insert weapon into assailant
3. Remove weapon from assailant again
4. Retreat to safety.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

It was just another news story until I read his stupid father's stupid beliefs about his son.

it's not stupid.

Gonzalez's father, Javier Gonzalez, said Friday that his son had cried out for his parents and sister when he burst into his home on San Leandro Street. He died there.

Javier Gonzalez sobbed at the loss of his son, who worked with him in his roofing business and at Oakland Raiders games.

"I'm angry at both of them," he said of the robbery victim and Veliz. "They took my son away from me. He was a hard-working kid."

He added, "My son is dead. I want somebody to pay for this."
his son worked with him in his roofing business and at the Oakland Raiders Games. so his claims of his son being a 'hard working kid' is not a stupid thing to say.

now if he said "my son was a nice boy, he would never do anything like that." then I would chalk it up to greif.

but either way, it's not 'stupid'. I'm sure when you die, your family would describe you differently than people here.

Then you fail.

Accidentally getting stabbed with a knife has nothing to do with your intelligence. If an innocent bystander had been stabbed, would we exclaim about how stupid they are?

Putting yourself in a situation where you threaten someone with a gun, and when they get the knife away from your co-conspirator, they see you as the immediate threat and stab you with it until you die - that's not an accident.

He was stupid and so is his father.

Just like this one:

Rookie cop blasts teen in Brooklyn stop
(67 Precinct Impact P.P.O.¡¯s Excellent Head Shot; Recover Skell's .357)

BY Kerry Burke and Alison Gendar ¨C Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 ¡®The New York Daily News¡¯





A rookie NYPD officer shot and wounded an armed 18-year-old Brooklyn man during a stop and frisk Tuesday, police sources said.



Akeem Harvey was shot once in the chin, and the bullet traveled to his chest, sources said. He was in stable condition Tuesday night at Brookdale University Hospital.



Two officers from Brooklyn's 67th Precinct stopped to question Harvey outside R&R Grocery in Brownsville at about 2:30 p.m., police sources and witnesses said.



Harvey acted nervous and kept adjusting his waistband before he darted north on Winthrop St., police sources said.



"The cops were searching the boy outside the store and he started running," a witness said.



"The police started chasing after him. I heard a shot. And he was down around the corner. I started crying and praying," the woman said.



As he ran toward his home, Harvey fumbled and dropped his .357-magnum revolver, sources said. When he picked up the weapon, he pointed it at one of the officers, sources said.



The cop, a graduate of the most recent Police Academy class, fired once and hit Harvey in the face.



Police recovered Harvey's gun under his body. The weapon was unloaded.



The officer's partner - who had stopped running to retrieve his fallen cell phone - came upon the duo after the shooting, sources said.



Neighbors said Harvey, unemployed and out of school, hung around with a local off-shoot of the Crips gang.



"I don't know anything about any gun," Harvey's father, Anthony Hall, 51, said. "He's not such a bad boy ... he didn't deserve this."

Putting yourself in a situation where you threaten someone with a gun, and when they get the knife away from your co-conspirator, they see you as the immediate threat and stab you with it until you die - that's not an accident.

He was stupid and so is his father.

You didn't read your own article, did you?

You know, the part where the victim clearly states that he didn't try to stab anyone? Where he says it was an accident?

You didn't read your own article, did you?

You know, the part where the victim clearly states that he didn't try to stab anyone? Where he says it was an accident?

Where he was punching at his assailant. When you're in combat, you're very rarely aware of exactly what you're doing.

The stab wound to the heart speaks for itself. It's not something that happens if you're standing over there with a gun and I'm over here with a knife - just by accident.

I have to cross the intervening distance, and stick it into your chest cavity.

well, fear not -- the fellow robber WILL pay.

Putting yourself in a situation where you threaten someone with a gun, and when they get the knife away from your co-conspirator, they see you as the immediate threat and stab you with it until you die - that's not an accident.

He was stupid and so is his father.

Just like this one:

yes, because how a child acts around family is totally different than how they act around friends. :rolleyes:

Hotwife is disgusted that the father of the assailant is angry at the victim for defending himself, it is as simple as that.

Hotwife is disgusted that the father of the assailant is angry at the victim for defending himself, it is as simple as that.

This.

This.

Would you not be angry if your child was killed, regardless of the circumstances?

Would you not be angry if your child was killed, regardless of the circumstances?

If my child was that fucking stupid, I wouldn't be mad at the person who defended himself. I would actually want to apologize for my son being a fucking tool.

Now, as for his partner in crime, well, the police had better find him first.

This.

Why you are being attacked, I do not know. The fact that the father grieved and ranted about his son's death is natural; whether or not it is stupid is not the issue here. The issue is someone being hated for defending himself against armed individuals. Does anyone here think there is nothing wrong with a man not decrying the fact that his son was criminal, but instead accusing a man whom his son attempted to rob?

If my child was that fucking stupid, I wouldn't be mad at the person who defended himself. I would actually want to apologize for my son being a fucking tool.

Now, as for his partner in crime, well, the police had better find him first.

People in pain are not usually that rational. I'd be interested to see what the father has to say on the subject a year on from his son being killed, I'd imagine it'd be much closer to what you've just said.

That said, there isn't a chance in hell of the media reporting that story, it wouldn't get people like yourself all hot under the collar.

If my child was that fucking stupid, I wouldn't be mad at the person who defended himself. I would actually want to apologize for my son being a fucking tool.

Now, as for his partner in crime, well, the police had better find him first.
Found!
Veliz, who is affiliated with a gang, was arrested at Gonzalez's home after police allegedly found him with the East Coast visitor's cell phone. He will be charged with murder in the death of his accomplice, along with a robbery count, prosecutors said.

that was fast.

Found!


that was fast.

The only other good part to the story...

Why you are being attacked, I do not know. The fact that the father grieved and ranted about his son's death is natural; whether or not it is stupid is not the issue here. The issue is someone being hated for defending himself against armed individuals. Does anyone here think there is nothing wrong with a man not decrying the fact that his son was criminal, but instead accusing a man who his son attempted to rob?

Do I believe it is right that this was ruled self-defense and that the robbery victim should not be charged with any crime? Yes. It seems as clear-cut as self-defense can be.

Do I fault the dead man's father for reacting in grief and being mad at the man who killed his son, regardless of the circumstances? No. It is an entirely rational reaction to finding out your son has been killed.

Do I believe that the dead man's father truly wants the robbery victim to be punished for the death of his son? No. He was clearly responding in grief and had not had time to adequately analyze the situation. If anything, it seems more like he wants his son's partner in crime to be punished harshly.

The only other good part to the story...

I wonder if they'll make the death of Gonzalez stick on Veliz...

Oh noez, the victims are defending themselves! What will muggers nationwide ever do? They should have an example made, so the streets can be safe for muggers once more! Vengeance!

Now, on a slightly more serious note, it's probably just grief. If he goes through with it, then we might have a problem.

Were I the possible mugging victim, I'd gloat in enjoyment to the father about the son being dead and in Hell. That would teach him to badmouth me for defending myself.

The lesson learned is: Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Or a gun. Shit, you know what? The lesson is "crime doesn't pay."

Were I the possible mugging victim, I'd gloat in enjoyment to the father about the son being dead and in Hell. That would teach him to badmouth me for defending myself.

Could you stop it with the incessant trolling? No one on this forum things you're a tough guy.

Could you stop it with the incessant trolling? No one on this forum things you're a tough guy.

:rolleyes:

Very well. What would YOU do in this case?

:rolleyes:

Very well. What would YOU do in this case?

Not taunt a man about the death of his son, for sure.

Not taunt a man about the death of his son, for sure.

Not even after said man has called for your punishment for defending yourself?

Not even after said man has called for your punishment for defending yourself?

he didn't. he said 'someone should pay for this.' thus with the proper prodding, you can turn his rightous anger towards the gangs that lead his hard working son down that path.

Why you are being attacked, I do not know.

Reputation precedes him...etc., etc., etc.

The things that people say when they are grieving often have little to nothing in common with what they would actually say if they were possessed of a clear mind and haven't just watched their son die in their living room.

he didn't. he said 'someone should pay for this.' thus with the proper prodding, you can turn his rightous anger towards the gangs that lead his hard working son down that path.

Oh, okay. Well, then, as long as not a peep was uttered about me, he'd be able to grieve in peace.

Not even after said man has called for your punishment for defending yourself?

That didn't actually happen, now did it? He said he was mad at the man who killed his son, as well as the other robber, and he said he wanted to see someone pay for the death of his son. You and HotWife both seem to want to turn that into the man saying he wants the robbery victim to be punished, even though that was never said. You're both creating unsaid statements to justify your rage.

Even still, I would not gloat that I killed the man's son, even if he did want me punished. I would apologize for killing his son, but say that his son put himself in the situation, and he was the only one to blame. You don't have to be a colossal dickhead to deny guilt.

Even still, I would not gloat that I killed the man's son, even if he did want me punished. I would apologize for killing his son, but say that his son put himself in the situation, and he was the only one to blame. You don't have to be a colossal dickhead to deny guilt.

You see, his son, his problem, in that case. I'm the innocent would-be-victim. So, seeing as it's not my fault, if someone called for me to be punished, I'd reply to them by hitting where it hurt. In his case, gloating about the corpse that would now adorn his living room. In someone else's case, whatever made them feel bad for daring to try to pin that blame on me.

You see, his son, his problem, in that case. I'm the innocent would-be-victim. So, seeing as it's not my fault, if someone called for me to be punished, I'd reply to them by hitting where it hurt. In his case, gloating about the corpse that would now adorn his living room. In someone else's case, whatever made them feel bad for daring to try to pin that blame on me.

Apparently a number of people in this thread are literate in only the most technical sense of the word. The father never said he wanted the victim to be punished, he said he's angry at both the victim and the accomplice for the death of his son, and wants someone to pay. This is a completely normal and expected emotional reaction. I realize people love getting their hard-on with self-righteous contempt of people, but, please, don't be transparent about it.

Apparently a number of people in this thread are literate in only the most technical sense of the word. The father never said he wanted the victim to be punished, he said he's angry at both the victim and the accomplice for the death of his son, and wants someone to pay. This is a completely normal and expected emotional reaction. I realize people love getting their hard-on with self-righteous contempt of people, but, please, don't be transparent about it.

1- I'm a translator, and a damn good one at that.

2- About the last sentence, though, you're perfectly correct! :D

Not even after said man has called for your punishment for defending yourself?

Not even then. He's grieving the loss of his son, whom he watched die right in front of him. He's going to lash out at innocent people in anger and grief, that's entirely natural.

To take offense to that to the point where you'd exploit his grief for a petty grudge? That's horrible.

You see, his son, his problem, in that case. I'm the innocent would-be-victim. So, seeing as it's not my fault, if someone called for me to be punished, I'd reply to them by hitting where it hurt. In his case, gloating about the corpse that would now adorn his living room. In someone else's case, whatever made them feel bad for daring to try to pin that blame on me.

Ah, so you're a colossal douche.

Ah, so you're a colossal douche.

Only sometimes.

Only sometimes.

Psssh. Quality over quantity. Anyone can be a misanthrope indiscriminately, there's no art to it.

Psssh. Quality over quantity. Anyone can be a misanthrope indiscriminately, there's no art to it.

NOW you get it.

Why you are being attacked, I do not know. The fact that the father grieved and ranted about his son's death is natural; whether or not it is stupid is not the issue here. The issue is someone being hated for defending himself against armed individuals. Does anyone here think there is nothing wrong with a man not decrying the fact that his son was criminal, but instead accusing a man whom his son attempted to rob?

It seems to have a lot to do with some people's spurious views on self-defense. Very negative views. They tend to get uncomfortable when confronted with stories such as this.