NationStates Jolt Archive

So I was bored and started to think about Noah's Arc, I tried to think up some way in which one could engineer something of that size that still floats. Turns out you could probably make it (eventually) but it would be shattered under anything close to the conditions required to flood the world. I'm just wondering how someone who believes that the bible is the literal truth would explain this.

So when you "thought up" why it wouldn't work, what kind of materials did you model it? With what tensile characteristics? At what displacement? Using what structural design?

Let's hear it.

Animals were much, much smaller in those days, they give measurements for the boat, it's not so very big, so the animals must have been smaller,

So when you "thought up" why it wouldn't work, what kind of materials did you model it? With what tensile characteristics? At what displacement? Using what structural design?

Let's hear it.

I believe the Bible says gopher wood, why do you hate the Bible?

its a metaphor?

also I find your lack of noticing the genetic implications...disturbing (seriously I think everyone just used to fuck their siblings)

if god wants the boat to last, it will last.

Animals were much, much smaller in those days, they give measurements for the boat, it's not so very big, so the animals must have been smaller,

I believe the Bible says gopher wood, why do you hate the Bible?

I don't hate the Bible; I believe the Bible very much when it tells me that you could build an enormous seaworthy vessel out of erect gopher penises.

So when you "thought up" why it wouldn't work, what kind of materials did you model it? With what tensile characteristics? At what displacement? Using what structural design?

Let's hear it.

lol well I was thinking pre-roman era standard ship building Methodology so your looking at using a hardwood of some type along with standard pitch and caulking for waterproofing. the biggest issue is size, regardless of tensile qualities the ship has to be large enough to store two of every animal along with fodder for said animals and theoretically enough room to keep them healthy. Unless ASH is right I really doubt tensile qualities of the wood really matter. Do you?

its a metaphor?

also I find your lack of noticing the genetic implications...disturbing (seriously I think everyone just used to fuck their siblings)
lol point.

I don't hate the Bible; I believe the Bible very much when it tells me that you could build an enormous seaworthy vessel out of erect gopher penises.

Are you some kinda atheist, boy?

We don't like your sort round these parts,

So when you "thought up" why it wouldn't work, what kind of materials did you model it? With what tensile characteristics? At what displacement? Using what structural design?

Let's hear it.

why you be ducking me?

So I was bored and started to think about Noah's Arc, I tried to think up some way in which one could engineer something of that size that still floats. Turns out you could probably make it (eventually) but it would be shattered under anything close to the conditions required to flood the world. I'm just wondering how someone who believes that the bible is the literal truth would explain this.

It isn't the size of the boat that's the trouble with the story. As long as you had a method of getting it into the water and of steering it, there's probably no physical limits on how large a boat can be: if it's buoyant, it'll float, whether it's a 10-footer or a 10,000 footer. The silliness of Noah's Arc is that one man could build an arc large enough to fit multiple animals of every species on earth, and take care of all of them for 40 days and nights himself. It's no nuttier than the rest of the bible, but it's nutty.

if god wants the boat to last, it will last.

That's what you said that time we rented a house boat at Lake Powell and you got drunk and spilled a liter of vodka on the control panel which Neo Art accidently set on fire with his..."cigar", and the boat caught fire, and us being of nationstates, we had a fifteen minute debate about how to put the fire out which degenerated into Muravyets and Canuckheaven having an argument about Gore's movie, and the rest of us spamming bad jokes about duck vaginas for some reason, and you said "If god wants the boat to last, it will last."

Then Frisbeeteria and Katganistan put the fire out with a fire extinguisher and we went home.

"And God said unto Noah, . . . Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this [is the fashion] which thou shalt make it [of]: The length of the ark [shall be] three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it. " (Genesis 6:13-16)

A cubit is the distance between an adult's elbow and tip of the finger, generally 18-inches. Most Hebrew scholars believe the cubit to have been between 17½ -21½ inches long. This means that the ark would have been 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high if the 18 inch cubit was used. If a larger cubit was used it would have been proportionately longer.

Link, which includes some preposterous calculations, what about the food you fools? (http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/sizeark.html)

Ano... eto ne... What does a boat have to do with, well, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Arc ?

lol well I was thinking pre-roman era standard ship building Methodology so your looking at using a hardwood of some type along with standard pitch and caulking for waterproofing. the biggest issue is size, regardless of tensile qualities the ship has to be large enough to store two of every animal along with fodder for said animals and theoretically enough room to keep them healthy. Unless ASH is right I really doubt tensile qualities of the wood really matter. Do you?

It hugely matters. The reason size is important is for reasons of structural integrity. Archemides principal lets you float as much as you want, as long as you can displace more water with empty space. It would have to be laughably huge (and I'm pretty sure the Bison aren't going to dislike the close quarters, and the geneticist-newts won't shut up about how 2 specimens may not be enough genetic material to viably preserve a species), but from a structural standpoint (the argument you made), tensile strength is one of the governing principles.

"Hardwood of some type" is hardly enough information to make any judgement at all, and "pre-roman" is hardly specific enough to model how and why the design would fail.

Did you really do any meaningful engineering analysis on this?

why you be ducking me?

Why you be hittin' on my wife? She told me about this morning, motherfucker.

Link, which includes some preposterous calculations, what about the food you fools? (http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/sizeark.html)

Mana from heaven, falling directly into the mouths of the animals so that Noah could concentrate on keeping the thing afloat? Wouldn't be any worse an explanation than you usually hear about this stuff. :tongue:

It isn't the size of the boat that's the trouble with the story. As long as you had a method of getting it into the water and of steering it, there's probably no physical limits on how large a boat can be: if it's buoyant, it'll float, whether it's a 10-footer or a 10,000 footer. The silliness of Noah's Arc is that one man could build an arc large enough to fit multiple animals of every species on earth, and take care of all of them for 40 days and nights himself. It's no nuttier than the rest of the bible, but it's nutty.
um no there are problems with simply scaling up a design for a boat. For one thing the bigger the boat the more poorly it will ride Waves and vicious sea conditions. Another issue is Hogging and Sagging, which becomes a more of an issue as size increases. There are very definite limits on how large a ship can be even with modern technology and it falls far short of the size required to carry two animals of every species (or type if you prefer,) their food and enough space for them to remain healthy.

Why you be hittin' on my wife? She told me about this morning, motherfucker.

that was your wife?

I figured it was just the whore you bought last night checking your computer cookies while you slept, looking for bank account passwords.

um no there are problems with simply scaling up a design for a boat. For one thing the bigger the boat the more poorly it will ride Waves and vicious sea conditions.

Really? A bigger boat copes poorly with "vicious sea conditions" than a smaller craft? Really?


Another issue is Hogging and Sagging, which becomes a more of an issue as size increases. There are very definite limits on how large a ship can be even with modern technology and it falls far short of the size required to carry two animals of every species (or type if you prefer,) their food and enough space for them to remain healthy.

Hogging and Sagging? You mean "Hogging is the stress a ship's hull or keel experiences that causes the center of the keel to bend upward. Sagging is the stress a ship's hull or keel is placed under when a wave is the same length as the ship and the ship is in the trough of two waves."

So, gee, structural stress...the kind that makes tensile characteristics directly relevant?

um no there are problems with simply scaling up a design for a boat. For one thing the bigger the boat the more poorly it will ride Waves and vicious sea conditions. Another issue is Hogging and Sagging, which becomes a more of an issue as size increases. There are very definite limits on how large a ship can be even with modern technology and it falls far short of the size required to carry two animals of every species (or type if you prefer,) their food and enough space for them to remain healthy.

I dunno. I thought you could go as large as the materials will allow, in theory. Either way, I've heard Mormons, for example, claim that the boat was sort of like two frizbees nailed together so that it was airtight and therefore couldn't capsize even in a freak wave. I've heard them say that the lost tribes of Israel were able to travel to N. America (a big part of Mormon theology) using such a boat, too.

that was your wife?

I figured it was just the whore you bought last night checking your computer cookies while you slept, looking for bank account passwords.

No, the whores I favor know I don't have a bank account. I agreed to stop hitting on Poli, now you stop mackin' on my wife, you putz!

So, when is this shit goin' down, boy?

No, the whores I favor know I don't have a bank account. I agreed to stop hitting on Poli, now you stop mackin' on my wife, you putz!

So, when is this shit goin' down, boy?

let's say...hrm...tomorrow, 9:30 PM my time the posts go up?

that was your wife?

I figured it was just the whore you bought last night checking your computer cookies while you slept, looking for bank account passwords.

Pfft, like you needed more whores.

The silliness of Noah's Arc is that one man could build an arc large enough to fit multiple animals of every species on earth, and take care of all of them for 40 days and nights himself. It's no nuttier than the rest of the bible, but it's nutty.

Which begs the question: why do people get so fixated on finding this damn thing? (http://noahsarksearch.com/ararat.htm)

NSG is an evil evil thing. When I first saw the thread, I thought it said Neo Art's Arc...

let's say...hrm...tomorrow, 9:30 PM my time the posts go up?

I have to go to a lecture from a Judge tomorrow around that time, and the prof before him doesn't allow laptops in class.

Any chance earlier?

Which begs the question: why do people get so fixated on finding this damn thing? (http://noahsarksearch.com/ararat.htm)

Something to do with the desire to survive death, and the related desire to find any scrap of evidenct that it might be possible. But that's the boring answer. :p

Something to do with the desire to survive death, and the related desire to find any scrap of evidenct that it might be possible. But that's the boring answer. :p

You want the interesting answer about Noah's Ark?

Here it is: http://aliens.monstrous.com/rael_doctrine.htm

Fourth paragraph.

It hugely matters. The reason size is important is for reasons of structural integrity. Archemides principal lets you float as much as you want, as long as you can displace more water with empty space. It would have to be laughably huge (and I'm pretty sure the Bison aren't going to dislike the close quarters, and the geneticist-newts won't shut up about how 2 specimens may not be enough genetic material to viably preserve a species), but from a structural standpoint (the argument you made), tensile strength is one of the governing principles.

"Hardwood of some type" is hardly enough information to make any judgement at all, and "pre-roman" is hardly specific enough to model how and why the design would fail.

Did you really do any meaningful engineering analysis on this?
lol no but let me do some now.

Lets go with Yellow pine (53 - 136 MPa tensile strength) smiliar to that of cedar ( 31 - 89.5 and one of the possible woods that the arc may have been made of) and the typical biblical proportions of approximately 450 feet long. This would make it similar in dimensions to the schooner Wyoming. Now realistically it would have to be much bigger but why not go with a biblical interpretation. The schooner Wyoming foundered due to Hogging and sagging in heavy seas. now I think a flood that covered the entire world would be considered heavy seas. Thus by comparison an Ark created without the pumps and Metal supports used in the construction of the Wyoming that kept it afloat in moderate seas, could not practically be expected to survive in the insanely harsh conditions caused by the flooding of the world, nor could the Ark realistically be expected to be as small as that, further worsening its chances in rough seas.

make me do something near research would you *shakes fist*!

Really? A bigger boat copes poorly with "vicious sea conditions" than a smaller craft? Really?



Hogging and Sagging? You mean "Hogging is the stress a ship's hull or keel experiences that causes the center of the keel to bend upward. Sagging is the stress a ship's hull or keel is placed under when a wave is the same length as the ship and the ship is in the trough of two waves."

So, gee, structural stress...the kind that makes tensile characteristics directly relevant?
lol ok ok your right tensile characteristics are important. See above post. And yes big boat= dangerous in vicious sea think life rafts for example.

http://aliens.monstrous.com/rael_doctrine.htm

Fourth paragraph.

I'm just not crazy enough for the internet. :(

You want the interesting answer about Noah's Ark?

Here it is: http://aliens.monstrous.com/rael_doctrine.htm

Fourth paragraph.

That's certainly a much more creative theory. :D

You want the interesting answer about Noah's Ark?

Here it is: http://aliens.monstrous.com/rael_doctrine.htm

Fourth paragraph.

After the races were reestablished, the most intelligent of them, the Jews, built a space ship (The Tower of Babel) in order to travel to the distant home world. But this frightened them. So, they took all of the most intelligent of people and scattered them among primitive tribes so as to confound their language and prevent further technological development.

I just KNEW I was Jewish!

wasnt the source of the whole story from the epic of Gilgamesh anyways ?

wasnt the source of the whole story from the epic of Gilgamesh anyways ?

There are many similarities, esp. regarding the Garden of Eden, according to the History Channel. They had a big special about it a month or so ago.

lol no but let me do some now.

Thats my point, you postured as if you had done them before.


Lets go with Yellow pine (53 - 136 MPa tensile strength) smiliar to that of cedar ( 31 - 89.5 and one of the possible woods that the arc may have been made of) and the typical biblical proportions of approximately 450 feet long. This would make it similar in dimensions to the schooner Wyoming. Now realistically it would have to be much bigger but why not go with a biblical interpretation.

Your original premise was regarding something "of that size" being unable to handle ocean conditions of the flood. Pointing out that it would have to be much bigger is a much more sound and salient critique of the Ark story.


The schooner Wyoming foundered due to Hogging and sagging in heavy seas. now I think a flood that covered the entire world would be considered heavy seas. Thus by comparison an Ark created without the pumps and Metal supports used in the construction of the Wyoming that kept it afloat in moderate seas, could not practically be expected to survive in the insanely harsh conditions caused by the flooding of the world, nor could the Ark realistically be expected to be as small as that, further worsening its chances in rough seas.

Which are all a function of the tensile characteristics that you claimed were irrelevant.


make me do something near research would you *shakes fist*!

Just like Noah, shaking his fist at the faithless unbelievers..."You heathens, get off my big pile of wood!!!"

"Um, mister, my dad says you're drunk and this won't work."

"Oh yeah? Well fuck your godless dad, I already fucked your mom!"

lol ok ok your right tensile characteristics are important. See above post.

Next time, maybe do the research before, and you'll see that the things you're claiming aren't relevant are.


And yes big boat= dangerous in vicious sea think life rafts for example.

Anything is dangerous, but you implied a larger boat was MORE dangerous in heavy seas.

Yes, ships carry life rafts, for obvious reasons, but are you really claiming that larger ships are MORE susceptable to dangerous sea conditions than smaller craft?

There are many similarities, esp. regarding the Garden of Eden, according to the History Channel. They had a big special about it a month or so ago.

in my western literature class my professor was talking about a lot of word for word copies, and that if you ran it through a plagiarism check today it would come up as plagiarized.

wasnt the source of the whole story from the epic of Gilgamesh anyways ?

One can't say, definitively, which flood story is the original, or if there even is an original (to say that there could have been several peoples who all wrote about the flood that allegedly happened.

The Epic of Gilgamesh, the Noahic flood account, the Story of Atrahasis, and even Enuma Elish all give accounts of some kind of great flood.

Thats my point, you postured as if you had done them before.

Right my bad :)


Your original premise was regarding something "of that size" being unable to handle ocean conditions of the flood. Pointing out that it would have to be much bigger is a much more sound and salient critique of the Ark story.

Ok I guess thats fair but I wanted to go with biblical proportions in attempt to narrow the field of possible arguments.


Which are all a function of the tensile characteristics that you claimed were irrelevant.

I thought we already covered this . . . .and what does this have to do with the functionality of the ark? I corrected myself


Just like Noah, shaking his fist at the faithless unbelievers..."You heathens, get off my big pile of wood!!!"

"Um, mister, my dad says you're drunk and this won't work."

"Oh yeah? Well fuck your godless dad, I already fucked your mom!"

lmao niiice :D

I'm just not crazy enough for the internet. :(

Then do it in real life! Or should I say, Rael life!

They're having a seminar in Vegas in a couple months...come on down, get knowledge, get aware, get laid!

Next time, maybe do the research before, and you'll see that the things you're claiming aren't relevant are.



Anything is dangerous, but you implied a larger boat was MORE dangerous in heavy seas.

Yes, ships carry life rafts, for obvious reasons, but are you really claiming that larger ships are MORE susceptable to dangerous sea conditions than smaller craft?
Actually yes i am. A smaller ship is capable of riding wave conditions that a larger ship is incapable of doing. Now there are issues around pitching/ rolling of a ship but I suspect that that is a function of keel depth relative to size of ship rather than a function of size itself. You do have to assume that the ship design is simply scaled up or down but yes, I would assume that smaller= better in heavy seas.

Then do it in real life! Or should I say, Rael life!

They're having a seminar in Vegas in a couple months...come on down, get knowledge, get aware, get laid!

Yeah...that no coffee doctrine? That's a dealbreaker.

Right my bad :)

Its okay, just burn a dove or something. That's what Noah would have done.


Ok I guess thats fair but I wanted to go with biblical proportions in attempt to narrow the field of possible arguments.

Its the biblical proportions that demonstrate some of the critical problems with the whole idea. Unless you use the Rael Space Ark version. Then it makes total sense. Really.


I thought we already covered this . . . .and what does this have to do with the functionality of the ark? I corrected myself

The function of any vessel is going to have, as one of its limiting dynamics, the structural characteristics. Buf if you're correcting yourself, cool.



lmao niiice :D

You have to admit, as silly as the Ark story can seem, its not that much worse than Waterworld with Kevin Costner...

One can't say, definitively, which flood story is the original, or if there even is an original (to say that there could have been several peoples who all wrote about the flood that allegedly happened.

The Epic of Gilgamesh, the Noahic flood account, the Story of Atrahasis, and even Enuma Elish all give accounts of some kind of great flood.

Just about every civilization has some story of a big flood, but I personally believe that instead of a world wide flood, just a massive flood of the Middle East occured

Its the biblical proportions that demonstrate some of the critical problems with the whole idea. Unless you use the Rael Space Ark version. Then it makes total sense. Really.

Why?

If God gave instructions to build it a certain way then that was the necessary way to build it, we can't assume sea conditions, it might have been a gentle and placid flood.

If it happened, you have to assume it could happen and find ways to explain it.

Its okay, just burn a dove or something. That's what Noah would have done.

lol oooo DOVE burning my favorite sport!


Its the biblical proportions that demonstrate some of the critical problems with the whole idea. Unless you use the Rael Space Ark version. Then it makes total sense. Really.

you wha??? the reference is too?


The function of any vessel is going to have, as one of its limiting dynamics, the structural characteristics. Buf if you're correcting yourself, cool.

lol thats what I was trying to do.


You have to admit, as silly as the Ark story can seem, its not that much worse than Waterworld with Kevin Costner...
Lmfao.

Actually yes i am. A smaller ship is capable of riding wave conditions that a larger ship is incapable of doing. Now there are issues around pitching/ rolling of a ship but I suspect that that is a function of keel depth relative to size of ship rather than a function of size itself. You do have to assume that the ship design is simply scaled up or down but yes, I would assume that smaller= better in heavy seas.

Well, good luck with that, you could be right...I'll take my chances on the bigger ship, because the waves have to be a lot bigger before they're dangerous to a large craft.

That's why Jesus enjoyed skateboarding on the lake.

Why?

If God gave instructions to build it a certain way then that was the necessary way to build it, we can't assume sea conditions, it might have been a gentle and placid flood.

If it happened, you have to assume it could happen and find ways to explain it.

lol god very slowly poured water into the Atlantic and flooded the world of a period of about 10 thousand years . . . .of course that doesn't match the biblical timescale or the "heavy rains" reported but still.

Kagetora;14540868']Just about every civilization has some story of a big flood, but I personally believe that instead of a world wide flood, just a massive flood of the Middle East occured

i find it ties more to where civilization cropped up.
civilization formed along river valleys which are prone to flooding. making floods the biggest fear of early societies. This eventually produced a worldwide flood story as central cultural element.

lol god very slowly poured water into the Atlantic and flooded the world of a period of about 10 thousand years . . . .of course that doesn't match the biblical timescale or the "heavy rains" reported but still.

Heavy rains don't mean big waves, it just means the water rose quickly, you're really not trying, I suspect you're an atheist too, well you'll not be so smart in hell.

i find it ties more to where civilization cropped up.
civilization formed along river valleys which are prone to flooding. making floods the biggest fear of early societies. This eventually produced a worldwide flood story as central cultural element.

I've always suspected it's simply primitive memory of whatever ice age.

Heavy rains don't mean big waves, it just means the water rose quickly, you're really not trying, I suspect you're an atheist too, well you'll not be so smart in hell.

really really quickly, wouldn't that change in water level cause large waves? and I'm pretty sure there mention of a storm in the bible too . . .and waves if I remember right

Why?

If God gave instructions to build it a certain way then that was the necessary way to build it, we can't assume sea conditions, it might have been a gentle and placid flood.

If it happened, you have to assume it could happen and find ways to explain it.

That works for the Space Elohim and the Rael Ark, too, though.

But you're right, God being pissed enough to wipe out almost all human life, he might've done it gently and placidly, since you can drown in calm water just as much as "Perfect Storm" shit.

Its just, I've seen some of God's engineering before...he was personally involved in the development of the Triumph Spitfire 1500, the TurboGrafx 16 video game system, the quintuple headed dildo, and Neo Art's "No-gag Electric Tooth Brush".

I've always suspected it's simply primitive memory of whatever ice age.

yeah it is all speculation.

Kagetora;14540868']Just about every civilization has some story of a big flood, but I personally believe that instead of a world wide flood, just a massive flood of the Middle East occured

Could be. I don't see why it couldn't technically be a worldwide flood, given that we're already dealing with an event allegedly instigated by supernatural causation.

Either way, the Noahic story does leave one with a lot of questions. Even if the ark was a box, and somehow maximized the space of 450 feet x 75 feed x 45 feet, and even if the very top was used to store animals (putting up small walls, or something?), it doesn't seem plausible for there to have been enough room for every land-dwelling species.

Could it have been supernaturally done? I suppose. God could have shrunk the animals or somehow fit them in a way that would seem paradoxical (inside the ark seeming much larger than the it looked on the outside). Either way, I just chalk it up to the "I don't know" category.

really really quickly, wouldn't that change in water level cause large waves? and I'm pretty sure there mention of a storm in the bible too . . .and waves if I remember right

Seems your impression of the Bible comes from Hollywood, those 'commie, homo-loving sons of guns', as Sean Penn just put it in his Oscar acceptance speech.

2 And the rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 That very day Noah and Noah's sons Shem, Ham and Japheth, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons boarded the ark,
14 and with every animal of its kind, all cattle of its kind, every creature that crawls on the ground, and every kind of bird of its kind, every bird, and everything with wings.
15 One pair of every creature that had the breath of life in them came to Noah into the ark;
16 and the ones going in were male and a female of every creature, just as God had commanded him. Then Yahweh closed the door behind him.
17 And the flood came for forty days on the earth, and the waters increased, and the ark rose from the earth.
18 And the waters rose and the waters increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the waters.
19 And the waters rose very greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heaven were covered.
20 The waters rose fifteen cubits 2 higher, and the mountains were covered.
21 And every creature crawling on the earth, with the birds, and with the cattle, and with the animals, and with everything that swarms on the earth, and all mankind perished.
22 Everything that has the breath of life in its nostrils, everything on the land died.
23 And everything living thing on the face of the earth, from man to animals to crawlers, and the birds of the air, were wiped out. And they were wiped out from the earth, and only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 And the waters flooded the earth for one hundred and fifty days.

yeah it is all speculation.

maybe just a general fear of flooding due to its effect on farming especially along the banks of the Euphrates and/or Tigris?

really really quickly, wouldn't that change in water level cause large waves? and I'm pretty sure there mention of a storm in the bible too . . .and waves if I remember right

I just looked this up, and it actually makes no mention of waves, and no direct mention of a storm.

Though a lot of rain could technically be called a storm I suppose.

I just looked this up, and it actually makes no mention of waves, and no direct mention of a storm.

Though a lot of rain could technically be called a storm I suppose.

Yah you and arr are right. It musta been the most gentile 30 days and nights of rain EVER and technically to top mount Everest so that's over 294 Meters gain per Day. or more than 12 meters of rain per hour. That's .2 meters per minute or .656 feet per minute rise. Now natural geographical boundaries alone (mountain ranges mountainous shelfs etc.) would cause waves, probably of epic proportions. Now factor in tidal forces and your 450 foot boat is gonna have some serious issues.

Yah you and arr are right. It musta been the most gentile 30 days and nights of rain EVER and technically to top mount Everest so that's over 294 Meters gain per Day. or more than 12 meters of rain per hour. That's .2 meters per minute or .656 feet per minute rise. Now natural geographical boundaries alone (mountain ranges mountainous shelfs etc.) would cause waves, probably of epic proportions.

I certainly don't think such a flood could come so perfectly in such a short period of time, at least without some sort of divine intervention. Maybe it was longer than 40 days.

Curious, and I'm far from an expert physicist, but if the water was to rise around something like a mountain, why would the mountain itself cause waves?

If I was to stick a mountain-shaped trinket into the bottom of a glass and continually mist the inside of the glass with a spray bottle, would the trinket cause any ripples in the water, once it began accumulating? I'm genuinely curious.

Also, in the case that it might have been a global flood (I'm unsettled about this), wouldn't physical obstructions displace the water, so that not as much would have to fall, at least initially, in order for the globe to flood, comparable to filling an empty tub in 10 minutes taking more water per minute than filling a tub with a person in it in 10 minutes? I don't know how significant that difference might be, and naturally the difference would decrease as the water got higher, since more landmass would be fully covered, and thus become a non-factor.

Once again, I'm simply curious.

Animals were much, much smaller in those days, they give measurements for the boat, it's not so very big, so the animals must have been smaller,


Or there were a lot less species.

Anyway, I guess that -let's say- an oil tanker is bigger than the Ark. And it floats.

I just looked this up, and it actually makes no mention of waves, and no direct mention of a storm.

Though a lot of rain could technically be called a storm I suppose.

I certainly don't think such a flood could come so perfectly in such a short period of time, at least without some sort of divine intervention. Maybe it was longer than 40 days.

Curious, and I'm far from an expert physicist, but if the water was to rise around something like a mountain, why would the mountain itself cause waves?

If I was to stick a mountain-shaped trinket into the bottom of a glass and continually mist the inside of the glass with a spray bottle, would the trinket cause any ripples in the water, once it began accumulating? I'm genuinely curious.

Also, in the case that it might have been a global flood (I'm unsettled about this), wouldn't physical obstructions displace the water, so that not as much would have to fall, at least initially, in order for the globe to flood, comparable to filling an empty tub in 10 minutes taking more water per minute than filling a tub with a person in it in 10 minutes? I don't know how significant that difference might be, and naturally the difference would decrease as the water got higher, since more landmass would be fully covered, and thus become a non-factor.

Once again, I'm simply curious.

not a mountain so much as a mountain range. Theyd compress the water between them causing it to build up slower there than elsewhere. In an attempt to equalize water would move from more flat areas where the water level was rising more quickly the coming together of the water from multiple directions would cause waves. I think . . .its two in the morning here so my physics may be a bit off.

Or there were a lot less species.

Anyway, I guess that -let's say- an oil tanker is bigger than the Ark. And it floats.

its made of metal not wood try making an oil tanker outta wood and your gonna have some serious issues

if god wants the boat to last, it will last.

Yea, but as we all know, Yahweh can be a dick sometimes, just look at the book of Job. He rewards a man for his loyality, by giving him one Hell of a good life, and then Satan starts in with the whole "My dick is bigger than yours" and instead of just whipping it out like a normal guy would do, God decides to make Job his bitch to prove...that Job will still suck his holy cock even after slapping him a few time with his holy pimp hand!

Yahweh is a dick!

You want the interesting answer about Noah's Ark?

Here it is: http://aliens.monstrous.com/rael_doctrine.htm

Fourth paragraph.

That is just made of so much awesome.

not a mountain so much as a mountain range. Theyd compress the water between them causing it to build up slower there than elsewhere. In an attempt to equalize water would move from more flat areas where the water level was rising more quickly the coming together of the water from multiple directions would cause waves. I think . . .its two in the morning here so my physics may be a bit off.

That seems to make sense, at least to some degree. I'd still like to see that enacted, just to gauge how significant the waves might be in that case.

Also, in the case that it might have been a global flood (I'm unsettled about this), wouldn't physical obstructions displace the water, so that not as much would have to fall, at least initially, in order for the globe to flood, comparable to filling an empty tub in 10 minutes taking more water per minute than filling a tub with a person in it in 10 minutes? I don't know how significant that difference might be, and naturally the difference would decrease as the water got higher, since more landmass would be fully covered, and thus become a non-factor.

Once again, I'm simply curious.
Um I think your right but I'm not sure what your point was. If it was simply less water earlier on your definitely right (also the earth is a sphere meaning more water is required per meter rise as the area filled would grow.

That seems to make sense, at least to some degree. I'd still like to see that enacted, just to gauge how significant the waves might be in that case.

yah for sure . . .im not exactly sure how to run this but it seems like a cool idea for an experiment.

yah for sure . . .im not exactly sure how to run this but it seems like a cool idea for an experiment.

I think it would involve a significant amount of land.

Since I currently rent a townhouse on a lot of about a quarter acre and have no money, I think I'm ill-equipped to undertake such an experiment, personally. :D

Um I think your right but I'm not sure what your point was. If it was simply less water earlier on your definitely right (also the earth is a sphere meaning more water is required per meter rise as the area filled would grow.

Well, my initial point was more or less a wondering about your measurements on how much water had to fall, per day, in order for it to take place in 40 days. I was thinking that since the water would not just be filling up empty space from sea-level on up, that it might not take as much water, and thus, not as much would be required per day.

However, I also hadn't considered the sphere of the earth.

Not sure if that could be figured, either.

if you consider the actual dimensions that were given, they are considerably smaller then a moder aircraft carrier. so i don't think the question of something that size floating is any big deal, though i do/would then tend to question if it were thus actually anywhere near, big enough. of course one mating pair, is NOT a sustainable gene pool, another of those nagging little details.

it was, in all probability, a parable, whose origins were entirely allegorical, and referred to matters of an entirely nonphysical nature, such as the writings in question generally seem to address.

Yah you and arr are right. It musta been the most gentile 30 days and nights of rain EVER and technically to top mount Everest so that's over 294 Meters gain per Day. or more than 12 meters of rain per hour. That's .2 meters per minute or .656 feet per minute rise. Now natural geographical boundaries alone (mountain ranges mountainous shelfs etc.) would cause waves, probably of epic proportions. Now factor in tidal forces and your 450 foot boat is gonna have some serious issues.

You silly sod!

Don't you know that many literalists posit mountains didn't exist pre-flood and were formed because of the flood. :p


Of course, that still fails to explain where the water went - "Boiling" (sending to space?) billions of cubic kilometers of water in matter of days would require energy levels that would quite literally melt the friggin' crust.

its made of metal not wood try making an oil tanker outta wood and your gonna have some serious issues

Aye, but the OP was about size iirc, not materials.

You silly sod!

Don't you know that many literalists posit mountains didn't exist pre-flood and were formed because of the flood. :p


Of course, that still fails to explain where the water went - "Boiling" (sending to space?) billions of cubic kilometers of water in matter of days would require energy levels that would quite literally melt the friggin' crust.
lol well now that is a very good point.

Well, my initial point was more or less a wondering about your measurements on how much water had to fall, per day, in order for it to take place in 40 days. I was thinking that since the water would not just be filling up empty space from sea-level on up, that it might not take as much water, and thus, not as much would be required per day.

However, I also hadn't considered the sphere of the earth.

Not sure if that could be figured, either.
Oh it can be (a univ project i had to do involving atmospheric stuff where you had to take volume at various levels and attempt to estimate volume take up by the earth itself) but it is extremely tedious.

Aye, but the OP was about size iirc, not materials.

Actually it was about the mix and was as poorly thought out as the misspelled title lol.

That's what you said that time we rented a house boat at Lake Powell and you got drunk and spilled a liter of vodka on the control panel which Neo Art accidently set on fire with his..."cigar", and the boat caught fire, and us being of nationstates, we had a fifteen minute debate about how to put the fire out which degenerated into Muravyets and Canuckheaven having an argument about Gore's movie, and the rest of us spamming bad jokes about duck vaginas for some reason, and you said "If god wants the boat to last, it will last."

Then Frisbeeteria and Katganistan put the fire out with a fire extinguisher and we went home.
god, mod, whats the difference?

Out of curiosity, if the noah's ark story was true (as opposed to pure, unadulterated bullshit), how did they handle ants? There's no mention of eggs anywhere, so they'd be doomed without the queen (who does all the egglaying and no other work), whereas the males do no work at all other than banging the queen.

Out of curiosity, if the noah's ark story was true (as opposed to pure, unadulterated bullshit), how did they handle ants? There's no mention of eggs anywhere, so they'd be doomed without the queen (who does all the egglaying and no other work), whereas the males do no work at all other than banging the queen.

So...ants are essentially like trailer trash?

Its important to remember that when you translate ancient hebrew to english, you must take into account a few things, such as a word having more than one meaning. I think there are more and more people realizing that the Flood was a localized event, spreading not over the world, but over a region or locale. The word translated as world in the English can also be translated as a general land( like when the word is used to talk about Abram going to the land God put aside for him), or just dry land( Like when God separated the water from the dry land in the creation story).

think there are more and more people realizing that the Flood was a localized event, spreading not over the world, but over a region or locale.

Doesn't "realizing" something require that the underlying thing being realized be true?

It isn't the size of the boat that's the trouble with the story. As long as you had a method of getting it into the water and of steering it, there's probably no physical limits on how large a boat can be: if it's buoyant, it'll float, whether it's a 10-footer or a 10,000 footer. The silliness of Noah's Arc is that one man could build an arc large enough to fit multiple animals of every species on earth, and take care of all of them for 40 days and nights himself. It's no nuttier than the rest of the bible, but it's nutty.

Noah was on the boat for like 2 years.......it rained for 40 days and nights, it took much longer for the water to recede.

So some young earth creationists believe that humans and dinosaurs were around at the same time, did Noah have them on the ark?

Link, which includes some preposterous calculations, what about the food you fools? (http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/sizeark.html)

I'm a little confused about why you think these calculations are preposterous. They seek to be very thorough and specific - or did I miss that you were being sarcastic?

Doesn't "realizing" something require that the underlying thing being realized be true?

You have trouble believing that someone was clever enough to realise that bodies of water tend to overflow, built a boat and took sufficient livestock on board to start anew after the water was gone ;) ?

I kinda hope that such a thing happened a few thousand times throughout history. Would make me feel slightly more proud about humanity.

So some young earth creationists believe that humans and dinosaurs were around at the same time, did Noah have them on the ark?

Can you see a mixture of velociraptors, utah raptors and sheep? Thatd just be awful lol

Can you see a mixture of velociraptors, utah raptors and sheep? Thatd just be awful lol

Lion and lamb are not much better :p

Lion and lamb are not much better :p

lol true true but Al least lions don't have the kind of weaponry at their disposal that Raptors did. I mean I'[m pretty sure a velociRaptor could shred its way through a wooden bulkhead in almost no time :)

Maybe the story is just a parable?

Maybe the story is just a parable?

Heresy ! Burn Wilgrove at the stake for suggesting such a thing !
Next he is going to claim that the crucifixion and resurrection is nothing but a parable either ! Burn him alive ! Skewer his innards ! Rape his women ! For God, the merciful ! ;)

Oh it can be (a univ project i had to do involving atmospheric stuff where you had to take volume at various levels and attempt to estimate volume take up by the earth itself) but it is extremely tedious.

I would expect as much. Not only determining the volume from ground to sky, but factoring the negative space taken up by land masses.

I'll leave that to university students.

Heresy ! Burn Wilgrove at the stake for suggesting such a thing !
Next he is going to claim that the crucifixion and resurrection is nothing but a parable either ! Burn him alive ! Skewer his innards ! Rape his women ! For God, the merciful ! ;)

I have women? When the fuck did that happen?!

I would expect as much. Not only determining the volume from ground to sky, but factoring the negative space taken up by land masses.

I'll leave that to university students.

I don't want it!
*attempts to pass on to some poor sucker in NASA*

I don't want it!
*attempts to pass on to some poor sucker in NASA*

Glad to see that our future is so willing to take on great challenges. :D

Glad to see that our future is so willing to take on great challenges. :D

lol :D hey now I'm a bio-med major give me a corpse any day physics just aint my thing :D

lol :D hey now I'm a bio-med major give me a corpse any day physics just aint my thing :D

It's fine. I studied Philosophy and religious history, so I'm no better qualified. ;)

Noah's ark is a problem. We'll have to call it early quantum state phenomenon. Only way to fit 5000 species of mammal on the same boat.

http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/air-carrier/aircraft-carrier-01.jpg

Oh god, you're right! Next you'll be saying that METAL can FLOAT!

There are actually scale model you can buy on the Internet of what it might have looked like. Noah and son would have to have been the best engineers this planet has ever seen. It would be an amazing feat to say the least. He did have about year to prepare but even still it would definitely have but all of his skills to the test.

They have some kind of okay working models of how he may have done it. With the tools he had from the day it would be very tough. It was basically a floating warehouse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark

According to Ark dimensions commonly accepted by Biblical literalists, the Ark would have had a gross volume of about 1.5 million cubic feet (40,000 m³), a displacement a little less than half that of the Titanic at about 22,000 tons, and total floor space of around 100,000 square feet (9,300 m²).[79] The question of whether it could have carried two (or more) specimens of the various species (including those now extinct), plus food and fresh water, is a matter of much debate, even bitter dispute, between Biblical literalists and their opponents. While some Biblical literalists hold that the Ark could have held all known species, a more common position today is that the Ark contained "kinds" rather than species—for instance, a male and female of the cat "kind" rather than representatives of tigers, lions, cougars, etc.[80] The many questions associated with a Biblical literalist interpretation include whether eight humans could have cared for the animals while also sailing the Ark, how the special dietary needs of some of the more exotic animals could have been catered for, how the creatures could have been prevented from preying on each other, questions of lighting, ventilation, and temperature control, hibernation, the survival and germination of seeds, the position of freshwater and saltwater fish, the question of what the animals would have eaten immediately after leaving the Ark, how they travelled (or were gathered) from all over the world to board the Ark and how they could have returned to their far-flung habitats across the Earth's bare, flood-devastated terrain, and how two or a few members of a species could have provided enough genetic variation to avoid inbreeding and reconstitute a healthy population. Numerous Biblical literalist websites, while claiming that none of these problems is insurmountable, give varying answers on how to resolve them.


Here is what it may have looked like.

http://www.ncgraphicarts.com/ryan/lego/ark.jpg

There are actually scale model you can buy on the Internet of what it might have looked like. Noah and son would have to have been the best engineers this planet has ever seen. It would be an amazing feat to say the least. He did have about year to prepare but even still it would definitely have but all of his skills to the test.

They have some kind of okay working models of how he may have done it. With the tools he had from the day it would be very tough. It was basically a floating warehouse.

He actually had about 120 years warning, the Bible doesn't say how long it took him to actually build it, but it was probably longer than a year. He gathered 7 of each of the clean animals and 2 of each of the unclean.

You people should actually read the story before spouting off about it.

For the record, no I never believed it to be a literal story and I don't now. I would be the same amount of annoyed if I was told on the internet that "Harry Potter went to Galaxy middle school".

If you haven't read a piece of literature you're barred from pointing out plot holes, end of story.

...If you haven't read a piece of literature you're barred from pointing out plot holes, end of story.

I have just gone and read it again. Can I pick holes in it now?

Plants - it doesn't mention that Noah carried a giant seed and cuttings bank aboard the ark. It does say that every living substance on the land was killed, so presumably this includes plants. Yet afterwards Noah plants a vineyard. Does this mean that the ark was even bigger?

I have just gone and read it again. Can I pick holes in it now?

Plants - it doesn't mention that Noah carried a giant seed and cuttings bank aboard the ark. It does say that every living substance on the land was killed, so presumably this includes plants. Yet afterwards Noah plants a vineyard. Does this mean that the ark was even bigger?

Did you read.......all of Genisis? Because the story isn't limited to one or two chapters...I mean like you totally missed the chapter where they moved seeds to a secret underground hideout guarded by intelligent molerats.

Would the penguins stand the temperature?

Did you read.......all of Genisis? Because the story isn't limited to one or two chapters...I mean like you totally missed the chapter where they moved seeds to a secret underground hideout guarded by intelligent molerats.

Is that the King James version, I am more Revised English Bible?

Would the penguins stand the temperature?

There are no penguins mentioned in the Bible, therefore they do not exist.

Reading the Noah story up until they rest on Ararat, it seems to me that first God tells Noah to gather 2 of every animal, then God tells him to gather 7 of every clean animal and 2 of every unclean animal, and then either Noah gathers 2 of every animal, or the 2 of each arrive by themselves.

He actually had about 120 years warning

Except, you know, the oldest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment) person in history only lives to be about 122 and a half years old. Are you suggesting that Noah was so precocious that he started work on it at the age of two and a half?

Except, you know, the oldest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment) person in history only lives to be about 122 and a half years old. Are you suggesting that Noah was so precocious that he started work on it at the age of two and a half?
According to the Bible Methuselah lived past 900.

Work within the story.