NationStates Jolt Archive

I got a bit fed up with all the "Do you belive in god/Christianity/name-your-deity-here/evolution" kind of threads recently, so I thought I'd check for another kind of belief... how many people here do actually believe that homeopathy is effective medication?
In case you're not sure about what homeopathy is, and to avoid people confusing it with herbal or natural remedies, here's what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy says.

Personally, I think it's a big, big hoax. 200 years of existence haven't provided a shred of evidence for its acutaly efficiency, yet people still cling to it. The human mind is sometimes mind-boggling indeed.

it seems to me to be a huge scam that should have been outlawed years ago.

Lets make people feel better by making them sicker.. yeah sure why not.

It is a lot of nonsense that people waste money on.

It probably works like a placebo. If you believe it works, then it works, and if you don't then it don't. Tinkerbell magic FTW.

I'm not sure. It does has that hoax feel to it sometimes, but in my experience, one time, when using this ear drops from homeopathic medicine, the ache in my ears went away. Maybe it was suggestion, I don't know. When I'm sick I don't go to an homeopathic clinic, I go to my doctor.

It may or may not be effective. One can say it's like religion in that aspect. :tongue:

it seems to me to be a huge scam that should have been outlawed years ago.

Well, in some countries they are heavily regulated. There's clear laws as to how far they can go in a treatment, and when they actually have to refer people on to a normal doctor or hospital.
In such cases, I think it's mostly the placebo effect that people are paying for. Not exactly ethical, but not dangerous either.
It's only when such quacks can operate without restrictions that they become a danger.

Well, in some countries they are heavily regulated. There's clear laws as to how far they can go in a treatment, and when they actually have to refer people on to a normal doctor or hospital.
In such cases, I think it's mostly the placebo effect that people are paying for. Not exactly ethical, but not dangerous either.
It's only when such quacks can operate without restrictions that they become a danger.
im not happy with the idea that its OK to cheat people out of money as long as you dont kill them while you do it.

Bullshit.

im not happy with the idea that its OK to cheat people out of money as long as you dont kill them while you do it.

Neither am I, but a lot of businesses do in fact work that way. :(

People want to be cheated. They pay for it.

Let me see.

You make an extract of a substance A, that by itself may or may not do something to remedy ailments.
You put 1 drop of this extract in 5 litres of water. Shake well in a very special way. Call this B.
You put 1 drop of B in 5 litres of water. Shake well in a very special way. Call this C.
*Repeat until Z*

I would call the end result "water". A homeopathists calls it "amazing cure for (insert ailment here), $ 10 a bottle of 50 ml please"

Let me see.

You make an extract of a substance A, that by itself may or may not do something to remedy ailments.
You put 1 drop of this extract in 5 litres of water. Shake well in a very special way. Call this B.
You put 1 drop of B in 5 litres of water. Shake well in a very special way. Call this C.
*Repeat until Z*

I would call the end result "water". A homeopathists calls it "amazing cure for (insert ailment here), $ 10 a bottle of 50 ml please"

My thoughts exactly.
They claim that water "memorises" the substance it came into contact with... if that was the case, though, wouldn't that make drinking any kind of water rather hazardous? Considering what it came into contact with over time?

I call it and products like it, 'Moron Tax'. :p

It keeps the economy going. In fact, I very recently watched a news story about how business is really picking up for Telebrands and other 'As Seen on TV' companies and how recessions are usually when they do their best business. I rest my case. :)

It keeps the economy going. In fact, I very recently watched a news story about how business is really picking up for Telebrands and other 'As Seen on TV' companies and how recessions are usually when they do their best business. I rest my case. :)

Inferior Good (Economics) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_good)

It's a complete hoax - except that those silly little Arnica globules my sister gave me against bruises totally work...

Meaning that I don't believe homeopathy works, I don't see how it could work, I think it's a big scam, etc.

However, my sister uses some (or only one, maybe, I wouldn't know) homeopathic remedies and gave me those tiny little Arnica globules. She takes them herself and gives them to her kids against bruises and swears by them. When you, say, run into a door, you're supposed to take 6 or so of them and it says you won't get a bruise. They're about the size of a pin head and basically consist of sugar with the usual homeopathic trace amounts of Arnica.

She gave it to me because I bruise incredibly easily and badly. And they work. What can I say. I develop either no bruise at all or, when I hit myself really badly, a much fainter one than usually. And they sure as hell don't work because I "believed" that they would, because I didn't, I thought it was ridiculous. Still do, when looking at homeopathy as a whole. I'm a homeopathy hypocrite, I guess.
I took them because I figured it couldn't hurt and she swore they'd help, and so why not, who knows, maybe there's something to this whole homeopathy thing after all? They worked, but when I read up on homeopathy it still sounded it impossible and scammy, so I remained thoroughly unconvinced despite my experience with the Arnica pills.

The downside is that the area where the bruise would have been still hurts as usual, so it'd be nice if someone came up with a tiny sugar pill against that soon...

So basically: no, I don't think it works - but fucked if I know why those Arnica ones work. Which isn't exactly a consistent position.

It's a complete hoax - except that those silly little Arnica globules my sister gave me against bruises totally work...

Meaning that I don't believe homeopathy works, I don't see how it could work, I think it's a big scam, etc.

However, my sister uses some (or only one, maybe, I wouldn't know) homeopathic remedies and gave me those tiny little Arnica globules. She takes them herself and gives them to her kids against bruises and swears by them. When you, say, run into a door, you're supposed to take 6 or so of them and it says you won't get a bruise. They're about the size of a pin head and basically consist of sugar with the usual homeopathic trace amounts of Arnica.

She gave it to me because I bruise incredibly easily and badly. And they work. What can I say. I develop either no bruise at all or, when I hit myself really badly, a much fainter one than usually. And they sure as hell don't work because I "believed" that they would, because I didn't, I thought it was ridiculous. Still do, when looking at homeopathy as a whole. I'm a homeopathy hypocrite, I guess.
I took them because I figured it couldn't hurt and she swore they'd help, and so why not, who knows, maybe there's something to this whole homeopathy thing after all? They worked, but when I read up on homeopathy it still sounded it impossible and scammy, so I remained thoroughly unconvinced despite my experience with the Arnica pills.

The downside is that the area where the bruise would have been still hurts as usual, so it'd be nice if someone came up with a tiny sugar pill against that soon...

So basically: no, I don't think it works - but fucked if I know why those Arnica ones work. Which isn't exactly a consistent position.

I'm not too sure about this now, but one of the principles of homeopathy is that the substance they use to counter the particular problems is one that would, if taken undiluted, cause the exact same symptoms as the patient suffers.
So unless Arnica actually causes bruising, I don't think those globules are strictly speaking homeopathic. They might just be a normal herbal remedy disguised as homeopathy?

Not all homeopathic medicines are 1000C. 1X to 6X dilutions contain quite non-zero amounts of the original product (up to whole cells), and may actually work. There are things about the body we don't know, and it might actually have response to ultralow doses.

But I'd consider that as working more by a coincidence, rather than through the "potency" and "structure" principles.


As for these... let me put it this way, listing the statements with no proof, but circumstantial and subjective evidence, from the most probable to the least probable:

- God exists.
- Audio cables that measure the same can audibly change the sound.
- Lunar phase calendar works.
- Some homeopathic treatments work.
- Keynes was right.
- Plants can respond to our talking.
- God actually has human-like properties.
- Moonlight has a cooling effect.
- Homeopathy actually works as described.
- Astrology has some truth to it.
- Fancy power cables do audibly change the sound.
- These guys are right. (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=13876.0)

I'm not too sure about this now, but one of the principles of homeopathy is that the substance they use to counter the particular problems is one that would, if taken undiluted, cause the exact same symptoms as the patient suffers.
That's what I gathered.

So unless Arnica actually causes bruising, I don't think those globules are strictly speaking homeopathic.
Good point.

They might just be a normal herbal remedy disguised as homeopathy?
I was going to say you're probably right but then I went and got the little bottle and it says "Arnica D12", which is also what you see mentioned when you google for arnica and homeopathy (like e.g. this (http://www.nutzerfreundliche-webseiten.de/medikamente/arnika_d12.htm)site) and the (German) wiki for homeopathy says that a D12 dilution ratio equals 1: 1 trillion (= like 1 drop of Arnica to 25 Olympic-size pools).
So yeah, no idea.

*shrugs*

If people really think it works and are willing to try it, it will probably do fine with them. I'll stick with normal, tested medicines, thanks.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=13876.0

You know pretty much nobody on that site believes that shit? It's full of trolls and spammers.

You know pretty much nobody on that site believes that shit? It's full of trolls and spammers.

On what site? Wikipedia? :confused:

Lets make people feel better by making them sicker.. yeah sure why not.
This isn't necessarily wrong. However, the homeopathic interpretation is utter nonsense.
Not all homeopathic medicines are 1000C. 1X to 6X dilutions contain quite non-zero amounts of the original product (up to whole cells), and may actually work. There are things about the body we don't know, and it might actually have response to ultralow doses.

But I'd consider that as working more by a coincidence, rather than through the "potency" and "structure" principles.


As for these... let me put it this way, listing the statements with no proof, but circumstantial and subjective evidence, from the most probable to the least probable:

- God exists.
- Audio cables that measure the same can audibly change the sound.
- Lunar phase calendar works.
- Some homeopathic treatments work.
- Keynes was right.
- Plants can respond to our talking.
- God actually has human-like properties.
- Moonlight has a cooling effect.
- Homeopathy actually works as described.
- Astrology has some truth to it.
- Fancy power cables do audibly change the sound.
- These guys are right. (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=13876.0)

I applaud your sneaking in of economic/political beliefs into that list that is otherwise a fair list. =p

Maybe I can convince people that mud prevents cancer and that the fresher it is, the better it works so as to encourage people to jump into it. For all I know, that could even be true. Afterall, I don't have cancer. :D

Maybe I can convince people that mud prevents cancer and that the fresher it is, the better it works so as to encourage people to jump into it. For all I know, that could even be true. Afterall, I don't have cancer. :D

Aren't there supposed to be volcano mud baths or something that are some kind of amazing panacea? Honestly, though, the idea of covering myself in mud, if even to cure something, is just disgusting.

Maybe I can convince people that mud prevents cancer and that the fresher it is, the better it works so as to encourage people to jump into it. For all I know, that could even be true. Afterall, I don't have cancer. :D

Can't be. I don't have cancer either, and I've never jumped into the mud.

Can't be. I don't have cancer either, and I've never jumped into the mud.

Nah, that doesn't disprove it. Now, finding someone with cancer who jumped into mud would.

it seems to me to be a huge scam that should have been outlawed years ago.
Homeopathy is bullshit, but I'm not sure if that means government coercion should be used against it. What about religion, should that be outlawed as well?

As for homeopathy itself, I think James Randi put it best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U

Nah, that doesn't disprove it. Now, finding someone with cancer who jumped into mud would.

Hmmm. My grandmother has cancer. I'll see if I can convince her to do it.

<.<

how many people here do actually believe that homeopathy is effective medication?

Iirc here some weeks ago was published a study which proved that homeopathy works only through placebo effect - if I can find a translation, I'll link it here.

Btw, some years ago, famous science journalist Piero Angela was acquitted in a trial for libeling - he had been sued by the national homeopathists' association for having said in TV that homeopathy isn't scientifically valid. The homeopathists' association was also ordered to repay moral and image damages.

Put me into the "bogus" camp, with slight Wherethinkyougoingian touches.

I don't believe in the scientifically unsupported "heal with those things that'd make you sick in the same way you are if you weren't" principle, and to pull such a principle out of one's ass because of a single instance where a cure proved to have short, somewhat similar effects as the disease in healthy individuals is about of the same credibility as when I said "Oh, I just farted at 19:17 tonight, so I shall herewith postulate that every person on this planet shall henceforth fart at 19:17 GMT-1 everyday". Seriously, now.

I don't believe that you can "make the 'good' effects stronger and the 'bad' effects weaker" by indiscriminate mechanical dilution of the entire thing. I've had enough trouble teaching my dog that he may chew this but not that; I have quite some trouble believing that some people apparently can teach sugar or water molecules to target and annihilate some "effects" and leave alone/augment others.

I don't believe that tiny amounts of sugar/water/alcohol that do not contain any traceable amounts of original substance have any other effect on you than regular tiny amounts of sugar/water/alcohol would have on you.
I agree with the post that said that if hat were true, we'd have to be fucking scared of what our regular water/sugar might have passed by.. maybe we can do a Jesus-like fish-multiplying thing and all feel nicely full after just a spoonful of sugar due to the "memory" of fishes that it has after it's been refined with fish scales like some manufacturers do?
Reminds me of that one acquaintance of mine who believes in letting a glass of water stand on top of a slip of paper with, say, "aspirin" written on it, and after a while the water's supposed to have the same effect as aspirin would have.


Of course I too have heard the stories of people who've been "healed" "by homeopathy", many first-hand, but I'm deeply convinced that the human body&mind is terribly intricate and we don't know the half of its workings, and one day we'll find out what cured those people, and it sure ain't gonna be homeopathy. For right now, placebo effect, selective perception/memory, and self-healing properties of the body are my main friends in explaining certain events.

I'm not in favour of it being on the NHS I will put it that way

It probably works like a placebo. If you believe it works, then it works, and if you don't then it don't. Tinkerbell magic FTW.

this.

there's no proof that an orgasm will cure a headache effectively but I swear by it (there probably is evidence but let the crazy witchdoctor have his fun)

im not happy with the idea that its OK to cheat people out of money as long as you dont kill them while you do it.

heaven forbid people make informed decisions when it comes to their own bodies

- Plants can respond to our talking.

well they do respond to classical music don't they? (most likely trying to kill themselves)

and they have been shown to talk to one another-ish

Maybe I can convince people that mud prevents cancer and that the fresher it is, the better it works so as to encourage people to jump into it. For all I know, that could even be true. Afterall, I don't have cancer. :D

there's already mud at health spas :p

Homeopathy is bullshit, but I'm not sure if that means government coercion should be used against it. What about religion, should that be outlawed as well?

As for homeopathy itself, I think James Randi put it best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U
no but taking advantage of people's desperation should be. its why we have laws against other forms of quackery.

dont we?

Homeopathy is bullshit, but I'm not sure if that means government coercion should be used against it. What about religion, should that be outlawed as well?


1.prevent the public health services from administering homeopathy
2.forbid public universities to hold homeopathy courses and exams
3.cut any public funding going into homeopathy
4.forbid homeopathist to use the term "medicine" for that.

This is enough to deflate the whole thing.

well they do respond to classical music don't they? (most likely trying to kill themselves)
They do?
and they have been shown to talk to one another-ish

Come again?

no but taking advantage of people's desperation should be.
But religion takes advantage of people's desperation for an afterlife by bribing and threatening them at the same time with superstition.

1.prevent the public health services from administering homeopathy
2.forbid public universities to hold homeopathy courses and exams
3.cut any public funding going into homeopathy
4.forbid homeopathist to use the term "medicine" for that.

This is enough to deflate the whole thing.
1. You seem to be implying that public health services administer homeopathy now. Which public health services are you talking about, are they simply responding to patients' request for homeopathy, and do they explain what is wrong with it before administering it?

2. Again, which public universities are you talking about? And what kind of courses? Are they religious studies courses or chemistry courses? If the latter then obviously they should have to explain what's wrong with homeopathy, (a bit of solution stoichiometry should be a sufficient antidote) but if the former, aren't they allowed to tell homeopathy's story if they're allowed to tell the stories of Christianity, Islam, etc...?

3. Again, you seem to be implying that we're publicly funding this. What do you base this on?

4. Who are we to say what they get to call it? There's all kinds of things in our society people are allowed to call things they obviously aren't, why treat homeopathy any differently?

But religion takes advantage of people's desperation for an afterlife by bribing and threatening them at the same time with superstition.

I agree wholeheartedly, but if you say that you start religion wars, and one needs more than homeopathy to cure the wounds caused by religion wars.

So, again, the best thing to do is cutting any public funding going into religion. If you believe in homeopathy, pay for it; if you belive in religion, pay for it.

1. You seem to be implying that public health services administer homeopathy now. Which public health services are you talking about, are they simply responding to patients' request for homeopathy, and do they explain what is wrong with it before administering it?
I am. Here in Italy some doctors working for the public health services actually prescribed homeopathic "drugs" at the patients' request, and some guys are campaigning to have those prescriptions actually paid for by the State.


2. Again, which public universities are you talking about? And what kind of courses? Are they religious studies courses or chemistry courses? If the latter then obviously they should have to explain what's wrong with homeopathy, (a bit of solution stoichiometry should be a sufficient antidote) but if the former, aren't they allowed to tell homeopathy's story if they're allowed to tell the stories of Christianity, Islam, etc...?

Universities. Universities are public, or operate with the ok from the Ministry for Universities and Research.
No, medical studies courses. Some universities actually feature courses in homeopathy.
It's homeopathy courses, not story of homeopathy courses. There's a difference.



3. Again, you seem to be implying that we're publicly funding this. What do you base this on?

Direct access to regional health service documents of Regione Lombardia - that being where I work. And newspapers.

(It might be different where you live. I don't know why you use "we").

4. Who are we to say what they get to call it? There's all kinds of things in our society people are allowed to call things they obviously aren't, why treat homeopathy any differently?
Because the Ministry for Health has the duty to say what is "real, solid, valid, double checked and reliable medicine" and what is not, and what is "real working reliable tested drugs" and what is not. The public has to be informed correctly - expecially about health and possible health scams - and the Ministry has the duty to enforce that.

Nomina sunt consequentia rerum; but if you say "eating shit is good for you", there will always be some moron that will believe it. Then they come complaining to the public hospital and the health service (that is the taxpayer) has to pay for them.

But religion takes advantage of people's desperation for an afterlife by bribing and threatening them at the same time with superstition.
*shrug*

Hmmm. My grandmother has cancer. I'll see if I can convince her to do it.

<.<

It's a preventative. Doesn't mean it won't work, and it can't do any harm to try, but mud was really designed to prevent cancer, not cure it. :(

there's already mud at health spas :p

Which I approve of and encourage. But health spa mud is to mud as Taco Bell tacos are to tacos.

They do?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3305158/Beethoven-can-help-crops-grow-more-quickly.html

Come again?

http://www.aol.com.au/lifestyle/story/Plants-Talk-to-Each-Other-Really/134401/index.html

Which I approve of and encourage. But health spa mud is to mud as Taco Bell tacos are to tacos.

you make your own mud at home?!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3305158/Beethoven-can-help-crops-grow-more-quickly.html



http://www.aol.com.au/lifestyle/story/Plants-Talk-to-Each-Other-Really/134401/index.html



you make your own mud at home?!

In the back yard, due to several objections by the Mrs over the concept of indoor mudpits.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3305158/Beethoven-can-help-crops-grow-more-quickly.html
Nic Fleming! I'm loving it. Anybody else had to read Fludd in school?

http://www.aol.com.au/lifestyle/story/Plants-Talk-to-Each-Other-Really/134401/index.html

That's one of the coolest things I've read for a while.

Put one drop of X into thirty gallons of water. Bottle individually, and sell as a cure for *insert disease/ailment here*

Put one drop of X into thirty gallons of water. Bottle individually, and sell as a cure for *insert disease/ailment here*
Nah, that's way too strong. As mentioned previously, a drop in an ocean is much more reasonable, or actually even a low standard.

High-end dilution graphic demonstrations are fun.

Nah, that's way too strong. As mentioned previously, a drop in an ocean is much more reasonable, or actually even a low standard.

High-end dilution graphic demonstrations are fun.

I found a little Wiki article that explains it a bit better.
60X 30C 10-60 Dilution advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes: this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient.
Frightening. And to think there are even more diluted homeopathic 'Cures'.

there's no proof that an orgasm will cure a headache effectively but I swear by it (there probably is evidence but let the crazy witchdoctor have his fun)

http://www.healthcentral.com/migraine/triggers-161473-5.html

Apparently, orgasm can both relieve migraines and cause migraines, but it relieves the symptoms of migraine much more often than it causes them.

Put one drop of X into thirty gallons of water. Bottle individually, and sell as a cure for *insert disease/ailment here*

The first time I read this, I thought you meant "X" as ecstasy, instead of a variable. I think that might actually have some quite positive results! :P

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2785985155605802136&ei=NsuhSZ22MonK-gHlvdm8Bg&q=homeopathy++explained&hl=en

Yeah.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2785985155605802136&ei=NsuhSZ22MonK-gHlvdm8Bg&q=homeopathy++explained&hl=en

Yeah.

I <3 your sig beyond all reasonable measure.

they are freaking geniuses they are selling tap water and making money.

Nah, that's way too strong. As mentioned previously, a drop in an ocean is much more reasonable, or actually even a low standard.

High-end dilution graphic demonstrations are fun.

See, that's the weird thing. Homeopathy believes that the dose will become stronger the more you dilute it.
So a drop in the ocean would be far, far too strong. Better you drink that arsenic pure.

Question: where do the homeopathists GET all that water they need ? Surely they cannot "recycle" water that was already used in a shaking excercise...

Question: where do the homeopathists GET all that water they need ? Surely they cannot "recycle" water that was already used in a shaking excercise...

Very good question, actually... will the water they use lose its assumed potency once it passed through the body? Otherwise one would imagine they'd be really short on water after a while.

And an even more interesting question : How can a homeopath identify the original substance used in a dilution? Say he loses the lable of a few of the bottles... how will he ever know which was which?

Homeopathy sometimes works as a placebo effect. It's not all bad.

In absolute majority of cases homeopathy will not make you more ill than lack of any treatment. I cannot say such thing about allopathic medicine, so I wholeheartedly support homeopathy. :)

In absolute majority of cases homeopathy will not make you more ill than lack of any treatment. I cannot say such thing about allopathic medicine, so I wholeheartedly support homeopathy. :)

Yep, I can really see that working when you've got appendicitis, pneumonia, tooth ache, a slipped disk ... just about anything really that you could need a doctor for.


Unless of course you're one of those individuals running to a GP anytime you break a fingernail.

Very good question, actually... will the water they use lose its assumed potency once it passed through the body? Otherwise one would imagine they'd be really short on water after a while.

Hmm. After pondering it a bit, I imagine that they simply shake the water in a slightly different way and then proclaim it has been purefied.

And an even more interesting question : How can a homeopath identify the original substance used in a dilution? Say he loses the lable of a few of the bottles... how will he ever know which was which?

Maybe he uses bottles with different shapes ?
Or maybe he labels the bottles of "Suckrose and Akwa" (thank you granny) using his connection with the cosmos.

Yep, I can really see that working when you've got appendicitis, pneumonia, tooth ache, a slipped disk ... just about anything really that you could need a doctor for.


Unless of course you're one of those individuals running to a GP anytime you break a fingernail.
Actually I think that in the case of tooth ache homeopathy sometimes can be more adequate solution. In any case I do not advocate using homeopathy alone, but it will never harm you, so why not use it too?

Actually I think that in the case of tooth ache homeopathy sometimes can be more adequate solution. In any case I do not advocate using homeopathy alone, but it will never harm you, so why not use it too?

Because one can do other things with the money ? For instance donate it to an organisation that will give an African kid real medicine, saving a life. Or put it towards a new Wii. Or the absolute best one: just give it to ME ;)

In absolute majority of cases homeopathy will not make you more ill than lack of any treatment. I cannot say such thing about allopathic medicine, so I wholeheartedly support homeopathy. :)

Translation:
Most of the time homeopathy is absolutely uninfluential, though sometimes it can make you more ill. The same cannot be said about conventional medicine.
So homepathy wins.


Meh.

Actually I think that in the case of tooth ache homeopathy sometimes can be more adequate solution. In any case I do not advocate using homeopathy alone, but it will never harm you, so why not use it too?

I think you'll find that untreated tooth ache is actually going to hurt you.
In fact, if untreated properly for a longer period of time, it's quite capable of killing you via a blood infection.

Unless of course you're one of those individuals running to a GP anytime you break a fingernail.

A GP? Excuse me? With a broken fingernail, you're wasting your time there. Better go straight to a specialist, say, restorative surgery.

... restorative surgery.

Fully based on homeopathic principles, of course. :D

Because one can do other things with the money ? For instance donate it to an organisation that will give an African kid real medicine, saving a life. Or put it towards a new Wii. Or the absolute best one: just give it to ME ;)
Lets be realistic, in most cases people will spend their additional money on some useless consumerist junk like Wii and not on charity anyway. Homeopathy at least sometimes can be useful, and I cannot say the same about many other things that people consume.
Translation:
Most of the time homeopathy is absolutely uninfluential, though sometimes it can make you more ill. The same cannot be said about conventional medicine.
So homepathy wins.


Meh.
I do not know if this because of the placebo effect or because some of the creators of this stuff have latent supernatural abilities, but sometimes homeopathy helps, so it is not completely useless. It is also important to remember that many people actually become much more ill or even die because of the conventional medicine. I am not saying that conventional medicine cannot be very helpful, just that it is not ALWAYS beneficial.
I think you'll find that untreated tooth ache is actually going to hurt you.
In fact, if untreated properly for a longer period of time, it's quite capable of killing you via a blood infection.
If homeopathy is not cured you in some reasonable period of time you of course must try other methods, but sometimes it is good to try homeopathy first.

Fully based on homeopathic principles, of course. :D

Absolutely. "So I took some sawdust (that represents the table edge I broke the nail on - remember, what ails ya cures ya), ground it in some lactose, gave it a 60X dilution, and now I sprinkle some of that Magic Powder That's Totally Not Only Lactose over your finger and your nail should re-appear fully grown in no time at all".

I do not know if this because of the placebo effect or because some of the creators of this stuff have latent supernatural abilities, but sometimes homeopathy helps, so it is not completely useless. It is also important to remember that many people actually become much more ill or even die because of the conventional medicine. I am not saying that conventional medicine cannot be very helpful, just that it is not ALWAYS beneficial.

If homeopathy is not cured you in some reasonable period of time you of course must try other methods, but sometimes it is good to try homeopathy first.

It's called a "placebo effect".
Homeopathy has been tried and tested for 200+ years, and has so far been shown to be no more effective than any other placebo (i.e. sugar pills). So it's highly likely that it's not in fact the homeopathic remedy that actually cures, but rather the person's mind.
As such, it's highly unreliable, and treating any kind of severe disease with such methods is downright dangerous.

Conventional medicine, if administered properly, has been shown to actually cure a large number of diseases reliably and securely.

So, if you're sick, go to a doctor. If you are not sick, what are you doing with a homeopath in the first place?

Absolutely. "So I took some sawdust (that represents the table edge I broke the nail on - remember, what ails ya cures ya), ground it in some lactose, gave it a 60X dilution, and now I sprinkle some of that Magic Powder That's Totally Not Only Lactose over your finger and your nail should re-appear fully grown in no time at all".

*lol
You've pretty much nailed it there! ;)

It's called a "placebo effect".
Homeopathy has been tried and tested for 200+ years, and has so far been shown to be no more effective than any other placebo (i.e. sugar pills). So it's highly likely that it's not in fact the homeopathic remedy that actually cures, but rather the person's mind.

Nonono, you're looking at it wrong. It's not that the homeopathic thingamabobs are "just sugar pills", it's that the "sugar pills", who've been produced in med-drug labs, have just the right nano-trace amount of substance in them, or, at least, ya know, the right "med vibe - I mean, med memory", and are thus also med products.

*nods*

Nonono, you're looking at it wrong. It's not that the homeopathic thingamabobs are "just sugar pills", it's that the "sugar pills", who've been produced in med-drug labs, have just the right nano-trace amount of substance in them, or, at least, ya know, the right "med vibe - I mean, med memory", and are thus also med products.

*nods*

*scratches head* But wouldn't that mean that all the sugar pills should be effective all of the time? Or at least the majority of times? You know, like those "regular medication"-thingymajiggas?

It's called a "placebo effect".
Homeopathy has been tried and tested for 200+ years, and has so far been shown to be no more effective than any other placebo (i.e. sugar pills).....

I am not so sure about that. I was under the impression that homeopathy has never been shown to work, but it has never been shown not to work, either, and those studies that claim one way or the other have been shown to be flawed.

I am not so sure about that. I was under the impression that homeopathy has never been shown to work, but it has never been shown not to work, either, and those studies that claim one way or the other have been shown to be flawed.

Most studies done simply give group A the homeopathic agent & group B identical looking and tasting sugar pills (or potions/whatever).There is never any significant difference between the groups.
However, it is often noted that both groups do benefit from the pill - the placebo effect mentioned. Or possibly the word "homeopathic" itself has magical powers.

Most studies done simply give group A the homeopathic agent & group B identical looking and tasting sugar pills (or potions/whatever).There is never any significant difference between the groups.
However, it is often noted that both groups do benefit from the pill - the placebo effect mentioned. Or possibly the word "homeopathic" itself has magical powers.

I just looked it up. Apparently since 2005, the last time I checked, several good trials were done, and seem to support your claim above.

Conventional medicine, if administered properly, has been shown to actually cure a large number of diseases reliably and securely.

So, if you're sick, go to a doctor. If you are not sick, what are you doing with a homeopath in the first place?
It can be dangerous to not go to doctor because in some cases it very important to act fast, but it is also can be dangerous to go to doctor because their mistakes can be very harmful.

My approach to this is that when I cannot help myself (either because I do not know how or because my approach did not worked) and if I cannot just live with my sickness I of course will go to doctor, but in any other situation it just not worth it. I do not know what will be an ideal approach to this. I am pretty sure that my approach is not the best, but I think that running to doctors each time when you are sick is not very wise too.

It can be dangerous to not go to doctor because in some cases it very important to act fast, but it is also can be dangerous to go to doctor because their mistakes can be very harmful.

My approach to this is that when I cannot help myself (either because I do not know how or because my approach did not worked) and if I cannot just live with my sickness I of course will go to doctor, but in any other situation it just not worth it. I do not know what will be an ideal approach to this. I am pretty sure that my approach is not the best, but I think that running to doctors each time when you are sick is not very wise too.

Well, if you feel that you'll be ok without a doctor (like, say with a cold, or an upset stomach), why go to a homeopath instead?

Also, on average doctors still cure a hell of a lot more people than they kill. And they're getting better on a daily basis.

I just looked it up. Apparently since 2005, the last time I checked, several good trials were done, and seem to support your claim above.

Unfortunately I have never heard of a truly extensive test where they had:
1. A group that gets the real pill, and is told that.
2. A group that gets the fake pill, but is told they got the real thing
3. A group that gets the fake pill, and is told it is fake
4. A group that gets the fake pill, and is told nothing except that real and fake pills exist in the test.
5. A group that gets the real pill, and is told it is fake.
6. A group that gets the real pill, and is told nothing except that real and fake pills exist in the test.
7. A group that does not get a thing.
8. A group that gets an actual measurable (but safe) amount of the "healing" ingredient of the homeopathic cure.

I would be interested in the results.

Seeing that various homeopathic base substances can be harmful or disgusting, this is a bad idea!

Well, if you feel that you'll be ok without a doctor (like, say with a cold, or an upset stomach), why go to a homeopath instead?

Also, on average doctors still cure a hell of a lot more people than they kill. And they're getting better on a daily basis.
Even if chances to be harmed by the doctor are much lower than chances to be cured I do not want to play in this roulette without really strong necessity. And with the homeopath I am pretty sure that even if there will be mistake it will not harm me much. :)

Even if chances to be harmed by the doctor are much lower than chances to be cured I do not want to play in this roulette without really strong necessity. And with the homeopath I am pretty sure that even if there will be mistake it will not harm me much. :)

So you go to a homeopath when there's nothing wrong with you? Or what exactly are you trying to say here?

Even if chances to be harmed by the doctor are much lower than chances to be cured I do not want to play in this roulette without really strong necessity. And with the homeopath I am pretty sure that even if there will be mistake it will not harm me much. :)

Conventional medicine has risks associated with it. I agree with that. However, that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of homeopathy. Why bother with the homeopathy at all?

I do not know if this because of the placebo effect or because some of the creators of this stuff have latent supernatural abilities,
The latter being extremely unlikely.

but sometimes homeopathy helps, so it is not completely useless. It is also important to remember that many people actually become much more ill or even die because of the conventional medicine. I am not saying that conventional medicine cannot be very helpful, just that it is not ALWAYS beneficial.
And much more people die because of the lack of conventional medicine... the point is: placebo effect (that is homeopathy) can cure minor things (like light headaches), but for severe things (like pneumonia, severe headaches etc) you need conventional medicine, that works on principles more solid than plain placebo effect.

Nothing is always beneficial. Not even the main ingredient of homeopathy, that is DiHydrogen MonOxide. And sometimes losing time with ineffective medicines kills.

I don't see how it would work if just a few molecules of the active ingredient are present. Placebo effect aside.

My thoughts exactly.
They claim that water "memorises" the substance it came into contact with... if that was the case, though, wouldn't that make drinking any kind of water rather hazardous? Considering what it came into contact with over time?
Don't drink the water, fish have sex in it.
Maybe I can convince people that mud prevents cancer and that the fresher it is, the better it works so as to encourage people to jump into it. For all I know, that could even be true. Afterall, I don't have cancer. :D

I have this rock that keeps away tigers. I will trade it for some of your mud.

I don't see how it would work if just a few molecules of the active ingredient are present. Placebo effect aside.

In your average Homeopathy pill there are NO molecules of the active ingedient present. As mentioned, it gets diluted so much that it is similar to a drop in the ocean. The chance that that drop is in your pill is neglible.

So you go to a homeopath when there's nothing wrong with you? Or what exactly are you trying to say here?
I am trying to say that it is worth to try homeopathy when situation is moderately uncomfortable, but not critical.
It is also worthwhile to try homeopathy when doctors already lose any hope to cure you, of course.
Conventional medicine has risks associated with it. I agree with that. However, that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of homeopathy. Why bother with the homeopathy at all?
Because sometimes homeopathy will help you.

*scratches head* But wouldn't that mean that all the sugar pills should be effective all of the time? Or at least the majority of times? You know, like those "regular medication"-thingymajiggas?

No, I think the reason that those regular sugar pills aren't effective is because they're overdosed. For the correct dilution, i.e. making it sufficiently potent, one needs to set a whole big box of sugar pills next to a single "real" pill and slightly whisper the real pill's active ingredient's name, in the dark, once.

What happens with regular sugar pills is that they are usually sat in a container next to an equally big container of the real thing, in the broad light of the lab, for several hours or even days, and the ingredient's name gets carelessly mentioned, if not even shouted, all across the lab at irregular intervals. Thus, the "med memory" is way too overwhelming, no real dilution is achieved, and the effect can't unfold in the human body.

I have this rock that keeps away tigers. I will trade it for some of your mud.

I'm very interested in your rock, but my cat Evil won't let me do the trade. I think he is up to something. *eyes Evil suspiciously*

I am trying to say that it is worth to try homeopathy when situation is moderately uncomfortable, but not critical.
It is also worthwhile to try homeopathy when doctors already lose any hope to cure you, of course.

Because sometimes homeopathy will help you.

So, when you feel uncomfortable, you go for water and sugar, essentially?

How does that help?

I

Personally, I think it's a big, big hoax. 200 years of existence haven't provided a shred of evidence for its acutaly efficiency, yet people still cling to it.

Yep. Its about as useful for medical purposes as Astronomy. Ye'd be as well tying a feather to a bone and pointing it at yourself.

So, when you feel uncomfortable, you go for water and sugar, essentially?

How does that help?

Lemonade. It's nice comfort food, so to speak. *nods*

Lemonade. It's nice comfort food, so to speak. *nods*

*lol
But you'd have to dilute the lemon soooo much... oh, hang on, let me guess, that actually INCREASES the lemon-flavour, right?

*lol
But you'd have to dilute the lemon soooo much... oh, hang on, let me guess, that actually INCREASES the lemon-flavour, right?

Only if you shake it so that it discombobulates the water essences.

*lol
But you'd have to dilute the lemon soooo much... oh, hang on, let me guess, that actually INCREASES the lemon-flavour, right?

Smart girl. Well, as indicated above, all you take is water and sugar, so.. yes, the "lemon" part is, ahem, heavily diluted, which, of course, makes it that more potent.

... think about that next time you get pissy about diluted coke at Subway's.

I think that we should be tolerant of homeopathy - but only amongst consenting adults.

But seriously now, it may work for some things (fight fire with fire) but it ain't gonna cure AIDS.

But seriously now, it may work for some things (fight fire with fire)

You mean like

'XENU IS EATING MY BRAIN!!!!111!!!!!'

'Here, take this diluted concentrate of XenuBgone'

'Wow thanks, I can't even feel a nibble'

I think that we should be tolerant of homeopathy - but only amongst consenting adults.

But seriously now, it may work for some things (fight fire with fire) but it ain't gonna cure AIDS.

True, if you're on fire it might indeed help... if there's enough of it.

But seriously now, it may work for some things (fight fire with fire) but it ain't gonna cure AIDS.

I have acutely come up with a likely homepathic cure and have sold a million dollars in tapwater Errr cure. Mostly been exporting it to Africa on the Ad campaign don't trust the medicine missionaries are giving you that is evil whites trying to kill off Africa's native population.

So, when you feel uncomfortable, you go for water and sugar, essentially?

How does that help?

I do not know why and how homeopathy works. I just know that sometimes it helps more than plain sugar and water.

""You should take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort."
"Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap."


Also:

"I've got a degree in homeopathic medicine!"
"You've got a degree in baloney!"

""You should take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort."
"Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap."


Also:

"I've got a degree in homeopathic medicine!"
"You've got a degree in baloney!"

I think that counts as a degree in Political Science. ;)

it seems to me to be a huge scam that should have been outlawed years ago.
By that logic coke and alchohol were rightfully outlawed. I don't have a problem with other people wasting their time and money on worthless hippie crap so long as they don't bother me when their hair and teeth fall out or they end up broke on the street. Do what makes you happy as long as it doesn't hurt me. If that means being stupid with your money then fine.

I do not know why and how homeopathy works. I just know that sometimes it helps more than plain sugar and water.

Faith healing FTW, eh?

Faith healing FTW, eh?

Homeopathy works on placebo effect only.

I do not know why and how homeopathy works. I just know that sometimes it helps more than plain sugar and water.

Except when people actually test that claim. Which is a pity - why it would work would be a fascinating thing to study.

By that logic coke and alchohol were rightfully outlawed. I don't have a problem with other people wasting their time and money on worthless hippie crap so long as they don't bother me when their hair and teeth fall out or they end up broke on the street. Do what makes you happy as long as it doesn't hurt me. If that means being stupid with your money then fine.

True, to some extend.
But I would still call for legislation to label things clearly to allow people to make informed decisions.
I've met a few people who thought that homeopathic remedies were just herbal cures (some of them are based on herbs, but not all of them), and a lot of folks just plain didn't know that what a homeopath will give you is just plain water and sugar.

Absolute load of crap, I'm always surprised at just how gullible people can be.

""You should take some echinacea, or St. John's Wort."
"Or a big fat placebo. It's all the same crap."


Also:

"I've got a degree in homeopathic medicine!"
"You've got a degree in baloney!"

Most often, echinacea is taken as part of a botanical medicine regime, rather than as a homeopathic treatment. While there is debate to its effectiveness, studies seem to be suggesting (http://www.vitaminherbuniversity.com/topic.asp?categoryid=4&topicid=1054#subcatid36) that it does have effects that go beyond the placebo.

St. John's Wort has also been deemed effective (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/st-johns-wort/NS_patient-stjohnswort#68CECF9F-E7FF-0DBD-11B1D16662AE5F1E) for minor depression when taken as an extract.

But this is botanical medicine, aka herbalism, which is quite different from homeopathy, as you actually ingest something other than water or sugar.

Who are you calling a homo?

By that logic coke and alchohol were rightfully outlawed. I don't have a problem with other people wasting their time and money on worthless hippie crap so long as they don't bother me when their hair and teeth fall out or they end up broke on the street. Do what makes you happy as long as it doesn't hurt me. If that means being stupid with your money then fine.
no.

things that are sold as medicine should BE medicine. when they are not they are scams that take advantage of people's lack of understanding.

its not so different than bernie madoff's ponzi scheme....if people thought he was making them money then what is the problem?

True, to some extend.
But I would still call for legislation to label things clearly to allow people to make informed decisions.
I've met a few people who thought that homeopathic remedies were just herbal cures (some of them are based on herbs, but not all of them), and a lot of folks just plain didn't know that what a homeopath will give you is just plain water and sugar.

Unfortunately the Brits put it on their NHS, which has given it the 'cloak of respectability'.

Unfortunately the Brits put it on their NHS, which has given it the 'cloak of respectability'.
Aye, tis a shame.

If I was paying taxes, I'd be fuming.

I don't think most people who buy into Homeopathy actually listen to some of the 'explanations.'