NationStates Jolt Archive

So after an extremely long argument with a person that I really really hate, and I wish would die in a tire fire, I got to thinking about all the platitudes I heard when I was younger regarding suicide and such. (My mind works in mysterious ways)

A few of the most common phrases are:

(1) Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
(2) Suicide is the coward's way out.
EDIT:
(3) Suicide is selfish.
ENDEDIT
I got to thinking about these two phrases in particular. If you were to give these phrases to a suicidal person, I feel nothing could be worse to say. Here is my take on it:

1) How do you convince the person that it is, in fact, a temporary problem? If the person is committing suicide, they probably feel that the problem is permanent. If they felt there was a light at the end of the tunnel, they probably wouldn't be committing suicide.

2) This one is even worse, as you are further demeaning the individual and making them feel even less than they already do. If they are committing suicide, they probably (although not certainly) are already suffering from extremely low self esteem. If you call them a coward, and they suffer from a negative self image, they will simply accept it as part of their being and continue.

EDIT:
3) This is very similar to the above "suicide is a cowardly act" platitude. It actually demonizes the person whom is in the state of being suicidal. This goes against any sort of help that might be given, as it only reinforces and galvanizes this negative self-esteem that's feeding the desire to die. In addition, it states something that is patently not true - that the person does not care about others. In many cases, the person does care about others, and feels they will be better off without him. This is not selfish.
ENDEDIT
So, now that I'm all done blogging, does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

So, now that I'm all done blogging, does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?It's a very permanent solution, that's for sure. I'm not sure about being a "coward". I'm sure it takes a lot of...I'm not sure courage is the right word, but it takes something to take your own life.

It's a very permanent solution, that's for sure. I'm not sure about being a "coward". I'm sure it takes a lot of...I'm not sure courage is the right word, but it takes something to take your own life.

I personally think it means that the person is out of options. It's neither morally good nor bad, neither courageous nor cowardly. It is morally neutral in every sense - the person just doesn't have any options left (that they can see).

Its probably better to be suicidal than homicidal. Some people would just open fire on the person they really really hated.

I don't know about you, but I believe in reincarnation. If someone kills themselves without a very good reason, their next life may very well have the same problems that cause dit the first time.

I don't know about you, but I believe in reincarnation. If someone kills themselves without a very good reason, their next life may very well have the same problems that cause dit the first time.

Wouldn't that just make them commit suicide again?

I personally think it means that the person is out of options. It's neither morally good nor bad, neither courageous nor cowardly. It is morally neutral in every sense - the person just doesn't have any options left (that they can see).Perhaps talking with them about the problem would help?
They could be stuck in a "I'm helpless to fix this" kind of circular logic. Maybe an outside perspective on the problem could help them find a solution.

Perhaps talking with them about the problem would help?
They could be stuck in a "I'm helpless to fix this" kind of circular logic. Maybe an outside perspective on the problem could help them find a solution.

Perhaps I misspoke. I meant that all the solutions are worse than suicide from that person's perspective. It may be true that someone could provide a new perspective on the problem, but it is usually more than one problem that bothers the person.

I don't think many people commit suicide over a single issue, but a conglomeration of many.

Perhaps I misspoke. I jsut didn't understand what you were saying.

I don't think many people commit suicide over a single issue, but a conglomeration of many.I don't have any good ideas that would help solve that.

So after an extremely long argument with a person that I really really hate, and I wish would die in a tire fire, I got to thinking about all the platitudes I heard when I was younger regarding suicide and such. (My mind works in mysterious ways)

A couple of the most common phrases are:

(1) Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
(2) Suicide is the coward's way out.

I got to thinking about these two phrases in particular. If you were to give these phrases to a suicidal person, I feel nothing could be worse to say. Here is my take on it:

1) How do you convince the person that it is, in fact, a temporary problem? If the person is committing suicide, they probably feel that the problem is permanent. If they felt there was a light at the end of the tunnel, they probably wouldn't be committing suicide.

2) This one is even worse, as you are further demeaning the individual and making them feel even less than they already do. If they are committing suicide, they probably (although not certainly) are already suffering from extremely low self esteem. If you call them a coward, and they suffer from a negative self image, they will simply accept it as part of their being and continue.

So, now that I'm all done blogging, does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

Coward is a very very wrong thing to say. I know from experience it takes A LOT of balls to kill yourself, since you're basically bypassing your inborn survival instincts.

Coward is a very very wrong thing to say. I know from experience it takes A LOT of balls to kill yourself, since you're basically bypassing your inborn survival instincts.

That is true, but it is also what people say all the time. This attitude that we have in the western world towards suicide is ultimately destructive in nature to the person that people are trying to help.

Not surprisingly, I doubt there's a "one-size-fits-all" way to talk someone out of suicide. That's a big part of the problem with the "platitudes" you've described; they're simple, general reactions to complex, personal problems.

So after an extremely long argument with a person that I really really hate, and I wish would die in a tire fire, I got to thinking about all the platitudes I heard when I was younger regarding suicide and such. (My mind works in mysterious ways)

A couple of the most common phrases are:

(1) Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
(2) Suicide is the coward's way out.

I got to thinking about these two phrases in particular. If you were to give these phrases to a suicidal person, I feel nothing could be worse to say. Here is my take on it:

1) How do you convince the person that it is, in fact, a temporary problem? If the person is committing suicide, they probably feel that the problem is permanent. If they felt there was a light at the end of the tunnel, they probably wouldn't be committing suicide.

2) This one is even worse, as you are further demeaning the individual and making them feel even less than they already do. If they are committing suicide, they probably (although not certainly) are already suffering from extremely low self esteem. If you call them a coward, and they suffer from a negative self image, they will simply accept it as part of their being and continue.

So, now that I'm all done blogging, does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

As to 1), you would convince them the way you would convince anyone of anything else -- examples, logic, appeals to authority, magic tricks, whatever you think will make your case.

My experience with internet discussions of suicide is that people tend to focus on the unlikely case of a suicidal person being completely rational and in a situation which, considered rationally, the person's best or only option is suicide. I won't argue that such a case doesn't exist, but in the real world most people consider suicide because of their state of mind, not the state of the world. States of mind are changeable. They often change simply with the passage of time, or a change in the weather, or because of something else that seems utterly trivial to an outside observer. Sometimes talking someone down off the ledge is a matter of getting them to believe that they may feel differently tomorrow.

Most people considering suicide are suffering from some form of depression, and depression is a bit like having a broken record in your head. Your brain keeps catching on something and can't move on from feeling miserable. Such a state can feel permanent, leading people to rationalize that it in fact is permanent, that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Convincing someone otherwise is a bit like jostling the needle of a record player to get it over the broken bit -- just a slightly different take on a situation will sometimes do the trick. That's where I think 2) comes from. I agree that it's actually not a good thing to say to someone in a moment of crisis, but it does jostle the rationalization that the suicidal person may have built up -- that suicide is an appropriate way of dealing with any real problems they may be facing, that everyone will be better able to handle said problems without them around, etc. -- so 2) may be a good statement just to have out there, generally, something to say to the pre-suicidal that they may remember later.

As to 1), you would convince them the way you would convince anyone of anything else -- examples, logic, appeals to authority, magic tricks, whatever you think will make your case.

I like magic tricks...

My experience with internet discussions of suicide is that people tend to focus on the unlikely case of a suicidal person being completely rational and in a situation which, considered rationally, the person's best or only option is suicide. I won't argue that such a case doesn't exist, but in the real world most people consider suicide because of their state of mind, not the state of the world. States of mind are changeable. They often change simply with the passage of time, or a change in the weather, or because of something else that seems utterly trivial to an outside observer. Sometimes talking someone down off the ledge is a matter of getting them to believe that they may feel differently tomorrow.

Most people considering suicide are suffering from some form of depression, and depression is a bit like having a broken record in your head. Your brain keeps catching on something and can't move on from feeling miserable. Such a state can feel permanent, leading people to rationalize that it in fact is permanent, that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Convincing someone otherwise is a bit like jostling the needle of a record player to get it over the broken bit -- just a slightly different take on a situation will sometimes do the trick.

How do we measure someone who commits suicide rationally versus someone who commits suicide irrationally?
That's where I think 2) comes from. I agree that it's actually not a good thing to say to someone in a moment of crisis, but it does jostle the rationalization that the suicidal person may have built up -- that suicide is an appropriate way of dealing with any real problems they may be facing, that everyone will be better able to handle said problems without them around, etc. -- so 2) may be a good statement just to have out there, generally, something to say to the pre-suicidal that they may remember later.

I disagree entirely with everything in this section of the paragraph. To start with, suicide could be an appropriate way to deal with certain problems, depending on the nature and severity of the problems. Having it "out there" also trivializes the problem and leaves the person considering it with no one to turn to - else they be considered cowardly.

Wouldn't that just make them commit suicide again?

Not if they change -- or someone helps them -- in their next life.

Creo que de esta me voy a mantener al margen. Tanto como que me niego a responder al hilo en ingles.

Y tu... Soc t'estimu multxisimu.

You nailed it when you called those statements platitudes. They're not insightful or particularly useful; they're just stuff people say when they haven't really thought about it. Of course suicide isn't inherently cowardly. Of course the problems to which it is a "solution" aren't always temporary. Anyone who thinks about the issue for more than half a second can recognize that.

I attempted suicide years ago during a truly awful time in my life, one of my friends credits me with saving her life during an awful time in hers, and I've helped run a support group for suicidal young people, so it's an issue and a mindset I've spent a lot of thought and energy on, and the simple fact is that there is no one-size-fits-all way to keep someone from taking that step. There are things that are almost always helpful (really working to make the unhappy person feel cared about, for example), and there are things that are almost always counterproductive (declaring that contemplating suicide in and of itself makes them bad or selfish, for example), but it's never an easy or straightforward task. Basically, the best universal advice I can give is to pay attention to the people you care about. Most suicides don't climb up on ledges in plain sight or shout to the world about how much they want to die, they retreat inside themselves and slowly tear away their own will to live. If someone you know seems badly depressed, make the effort to reach out to them and let them know you care. You might be saving a life without even knowing it.

You nailed it when you called those statements platitudes. They're not insightful or particularly useful; they're just stuff people say when they haven't really thought about it. Of course suicide isn't inherently cowardly. Of course the problems to which it is a "solution" aren't always temporary. Anyone who thinks about the issue for more than half a second can recognize that.

I attempted suicide years ago during a truly awful time in my life, one of my friends credits me with saving her life during an awful time in hers, and I've helped run a support group for suicidal young people, so it's an issue and a mindset I've spent a lot of thought and energy on, and the simple fact is that there is no one-size-fits-all way to keep someone from taking that step. There are things that are almost always helpful (really working to make the unhappy person feel cared about, for example), and there are things that are almost always counterproductive (declaring that contemplating suicide in and of itself makes them bad or selfish, for example), but it's never an easy or straightforward task. Basically, the best universal advice I can give is to pay attention to the people you care about. Most suicides don't climb up on ledges in plain sight or shout to the world about how much they want to die, they retreat inside themselves and slowly tear away their own will to live. If someone you know seems badly depressed, make the effort to reach out to them and let them know you care. You might be saving a life without even knowing it.

That's the other one I was trying to think of. I'm going to go back and edit the OP.

As far as the rest of your post, I think you said everything I said, except more eloquently, efficiently, and effectively. Thanks :fluffle:

Coward is a very very wrong thing to say. I know from experience it takes A LOT of balls to kill yourself, since you're basically bypassing your inborn survival instincts.

You know from experience? So you killed yourself a few times and it was pretty hard? Or maybe someone you know killed themselves, and turned out to have a huge number of balls?

[snip] If someone you know seems badly depressed, make the effort to reach out to them and let them know you care. You might be saving a life without even knowing it.

I was rather suicidal around the age of, oh, 15 or so. (Rather than gaining the will to live since then, I've mostly lost the will to die.) If, when I'd been that depressed, someone had tried reaching out to me, I'd probably have rejected them outright, and maybe gotten angry at them for it. Then sunk a little deeper with the knowledge that I'd lost control and hurt someone else's feelings, still more evidence that I was undeserving of life. Or something. Depression makes you act weird.

My personal suggestion is, if someone you know is harboring suicidal tendencies, point out the downsides of death (such as a permanent loss of consciousness, getting eaten by worms and maggots, and losing any ability to affect the world to their preference). The way you proceed with the rest of the conversation depends on your relationship with the person and what you know about them. But instilling in them the fear of death may help somewhat.

I think its ironic that religions condemn suicide, when the only way I can think suicide would make sense is if you had a belief in something "after" life. If what happens after life is absolutely nothing, then surely ending your life will always be worst than continuing it, no matter how much it sucks.

If someone is suicidal I just hand them a .22 rifle, and not the automatic. If they can kill themselves with that, then they deserve to die.

So after an extremely long argument with a person that I really really hate, and I wish would die in a tire fire, I got to thinking about all the platitudes I heard when I was younger regarding suicide and such. (My mind works in mysterious ways)

A few of the most common phrases are:

(1) Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
(2) Suicide is the coward's way out.
EDIT:
(3) Suicide is selfish.
ENDEDIT
I got to thinking about these two phrases in particular. If you were to give these phrases to a suicidal person, I feel nothing could be worse to say. Here is my take on it:

1) How do you convince the person that it is, in fact, a temporary problem? If the person is committing suicide, they probably feel that the problem is permanent. If they felt there was a light at the end of the tunnel, they probably wouldn't be committing suicide.

2) This one is even worse, as you are further demeaning the individual and making them feel even less than they already do. If they are committing suicide, they probably (although not certainly) are already suffering from extremely low self esteem. If you call them a coward, and they suffer from a negative self image, they will simply accept it as part of their being and continue.

EDIT:
3) This is very similar to the above "suicide is a cowardly act" platitude. It actually demonizes the person whom is in the state of being suicidal. This goes against any sort of help that might be given, as it only reinforces and galvanizes this negative self-esteem that's feeding the desire to die. In addition, it states something that is patently not true - that the person does not care about others. In many cases, the person does care about others, and feels they will be better off without him. This is not selfish.
ENDEDIT
So, now that I'm all done blogging, does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

Sure.

(1): So what?
(2): Suffering without reason is not brave; suicide is often the practical way out, or so says Seneca.
(3): Incorrect. We already inhabit an over-populated planet, and many starve as a result. Individual suicide, if anything, is better for society.

(2): Suffering without reason is not brave; suicide is often the practical way out, or so says Seneca.

I don't think Stoicism is the way to go. Even the Romans, after a while, knew that.

(3): Incorrect. We already inhabit an over-populated planet, and many starve as a result. Individual suicide, if anything, is better for society.

That, my friend, is the incorrect way to look at a problem. Suicide may be the immediate solution to an individual, but it's not a means to resolve a problem like overpopulation. It's rather callous to think in these terms.

You know from experience? So you killed yourself a few times and it was pretty hard? Or maybe someone you know killed themselves, and turned out to have a huge number of balls?

It is fairly hard; I've tried it a couple times.

That is true, but it is also what people say all the time. This attitude that we have in the western world towards suicide is ultimately destructive in nature to the person that people are trying to help.

Yeah. I guess what we should do is just sit and listen without being patronizing.

Lets not talk about something as depressing as suicide right now...

That, my friend, is the incorrect way to look at a problem. Suicide may be the immediate solution to an individual, but it's not a means to resolve a problem like overpopulation.

Correct. That's what war and disease are for.

In fact, a nuclear war sufficiently powerful to wipe out humanity would be good for the planet in the long run, as the environment would recover within five centuries or so, whereas humans might continue to exist and manipulate it to their own ends for a good deal longer than that.

My personal suggestion is, if someone you know is harboring suicidal tendencies, point out the downsides of death (such as a permanent loss of consciousness, getting eaten by worms and maggots, and losing any ability to affect the world to their preference). The way you proceed with the rest of the conversation depends on your relationship with the person and what you know about them. But instilling in them the fear of death may help somewhat.

1) When I tried to kill myself, I was looking for a permanent loss of consciousness.

2) Worms and maggots don't gross you out when you're dead.

3) When I'm very depressed, I believe my very presence affects the world negatively, even without me doing anything. So the idea that I could, by living, "affect the world to my preference" would be terrifying.

How do we measure someone who commits suicide rationally versus someone who commits suicide irrationally?

That question cannot be answered absolutely, because it requires a universal definition of rationality. That said, I think it's reasonable to try to determine whether the suicidal person's perception of his or her external situation is in line with the perceptions of other, non-suicidal, people. ("External" because pain is completely subjective, and so is pain alleviation to a certain extent, but other aspects of their situation -- for example, the suicidal person's prospects of accessing methods of lessening their pain -- can be observed by outsiders.)

I disagree entirely with everything in this section of the paragraph. To start with, suicide could be an appropriate way to deal with certain problems, depending on the nature and severity of the problems. Having it "out there" also trivializes the problem and leaves the person considering it with no one to turn to - else they be considered cowardly.

Fair enough. I'm not too fond of the statement myself. I don't see how it "trivializes" suicide, though. "Coward" is pretty strong language; it's an overly dramatic sentiment if it's anything. Misrepresents suicide, perhaps. Also, while it could have the effect you describe, it could also dissuade the would-be suicide who does not want to be thought of as a coward. As I alluded to earlier, I'm not terribly concerned with the theoretical cases who are rational and correct in their decision to commit suicide, in part because I don't think rational people are unduly influenced by empty aphorisms they may have overheard months or years ago, and in part because I believe they're the exception rather than the rule.

I don't think Stoicism is the way to go. Even the Romans, after a while, knew that.

Surely not for most, since it is ascetic doctrine. I simply believe that, unless and individual is mentally unstable, he should be allowed to kill himself if he so wishes. What is wrong with suicide?

That, my friend, is the incorrect way to look at a problem. Suicide may be the immediate solution to an individual,

And there is nothing wrong with that solution.

but it's not a means to resolve a problem like overpopulation. It's rather callous to think in these terms.

I am not recommending we launch a campaign to promote suicide; I believe that we should stress birth-control and adoption. As for callous: I was once truly suicidal, and at that stage, a person urging me on would not have hurt my feelings. When life is incredibly painful, death is benign. I am not so lustful for an end now, but I am honestly not offended by the thought of it.

Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
"Good-morning," and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich—yes, richer than a king,
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.

I've always been too narcissistic to contemplate suicide myself, but I did have a good friend who hung himself when we were in high school, and like Richard Cory in the poem, he was the last person you would have thought would do that. On the surface, he had everything going for him, and was a happy go lucky kind of guy, but underneath, he apparently couldn't deal with whatever it was that ate at him anymore.

Wouldn't that just make them commit suicide again?

haha.

that made me chuckle.

Surely not for most, since it is ascetic doctrine. I simply believe that, unless and individual is mentally unstable, he should be allowed to kill himself if he so wishes. What is wrong with suicide?

What do you think goes through the mind of someone suicidal? A person that decides that suicide is the way to go, is surely, mentally unstable. I don't see anything wrong with suicide. I tried it when I was 13, occasionally it seems like a romantic and good way to go. But despite all that, it's not a solution.

And there is nothing wrong with that solution.

But there's nothing right with it either.

I am not recommending we launch a campaign to promote suicide; I believe that we should stress birth-control and adoption. As for callous: I was once truly suicidal, and at that stage, a person urging me on would not have hurt my feelings. When life is incredibly painful, death is benign. I am not so lustful for an end now, but I am honestly not offended by the thought of it.

Neither am I. I often dream that I die Ophelia's death. I sometimes dream the one who loves me will end my life in a lethal embrace. There's nothing wrong with death or thoughts of it. It's about choice, true. But I don't condone urging people to commit suicide either.