NationStates Jolt Archive

I hestitate to even start this thread for the shitstorm it will cause but U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder's recent comments on race and the U.S. deserve some attention:

Remarks as Prepared for Delivery by Attorney General Eric Holder at the Department of Justice African American History Month Program (http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/speeches/2009/ag-speech-090218.html)

Wednesday, February 18, 2009

Every year, in February, we attempt to recognize and to appreciate black history. It is a worthwhile endeavor for the contributions of African Americans to this great nation are numerous and significant. Even as we fight a war against terrorism, deal with the reality of electing an African American as our President for the first time and deal with the other significant issues of the day, the need to confront our racial past, and our racial present, and to understand the history of African people in this country, endures. One cannot truly understand America without understanding the historical experience of black people in this nation. Simply put, to get to the heart of this country one must examine its racial soul.

Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards. Though race related issues continue to occupy a significant portion of our political discussion, and though there remain many unresolved racial issues in this nation, we, average Americans, simply do not talk enough with each other about race. It is an issue we have never been at ease with and given our nation’s history this is in some ways understandable. And yet, if we are to make progress in this area we must feel comfortable enough with one another, and tolerant enough of each other, to have frank conversations about the racial matters that continue to divide us. But we must do more- and we in this room bear a special responsibility. Through its work and through its example this Department of Justice, as long as I am here, must - and will - lead the nation to the "new birth of freedom" so long ago promised by our greatest President. This is our duty and our solemn obligation.

We commemorated five years ago, the 50th anniversary of the landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision. And though the world in which we now live is fundamentally different than that which existed then, this nation has still not come to grips with its racial past nor has it been willing to contemplate, in a truly meaningful way, the diverse future it is fated to have. To our detriment, this is typical of the way in which this nation deals with issues of race. And so I would suggest that we use February of every year to not only commemorate black history but also to foster a period of dialogue among the races. This is admittedly an artificial device to generate discussion that should come more naturally, but our history is such that we must find ways to force ourselves to confront that which we have become expert at avoiding.

As a nation we have done a pretty good job in melding the races in the workplace. We work with one another, lunch together and, when the event is at the workplace during work hours or shortly thereafter, we socialize with one another fairly well, irrespective of race. And yet even this interaction operates within certain limitations. We know, by "American instinct" and by learned behavior, that certain subjects are off limits and that to explore them risks, at best embarrassment, and, at worst, the questioning of one’s character. And outside the workplace the situation is even more bleak in that there is almost no significant interaction between us. On Saturdays and Sundays America in the year 2009 does not, in some ways, differ significantly from the country that existed some fifty years ago. This is truly sad. Given all that we as a nation went through during the civil rights struggle it is hard for me to accept that the result of those efforts was to create an America that is more prosperous, more positively race conscious and yet is voluntarily socially segregated.

As a nation we should use Black History month as a means to deal with this continuing problem. By creating what will admittedly be, at first, artificial opportunities to engage one another we can hasten the day when the dream of individual, character based, acceptance can actually be realized. To respect one another we must have a basic understanding of one another. And so we should use events such as this to not only learn more about the facts of black history but also to learn more about each other. This will be, at first, a process that is both awkward and painful but the rewards are potentially great. The alternative is to allow to continue the polite, restrained mixing that now passes as meaningful interaction but that accomplishes little. Imagine if you will situations where people- regardless of their skin color- could confront racial issues freely and without fear. The potential of this country, that is becoming increasingly diverse, would be greatly enhanced. I fear however, that we are taking steps that, rather than advancing us as a nation are actually dividing us even further. We still speak too much of "them" and not "us". There can, for instance, be very legitimate debate about the question of affirmative action. This debate can, and should, be nuanced, principled and spirited. But the conversation that we now engage in as a nation on this and other racial subjects is too often simplistic and left to those on the extremes who are not hesitant to use these issues to advance nothing more than their own, narrow self interest. Our history has demonstrated that the vast majority of Americans are uncomfortable with, and would like to not have to deal with, racial matters and that is why those, black or white, elected or self-appointed, who promise relief in easy, quick solutions, no matter how divisive, are embraced. We are then free to retreat to our race protected cocoons where much is comfortable and where progress is not really made. If we allow this attitude to persist in the face of the most significant demographic changes that this nation has ever confronted- and remember, there will be no majority race in America in about fifty years- the coming diversity that could be such a powerful, positive force will, instead, become a reason for stagnation and polarization. We cannot allow this to happen and one way to prevent such an unwelcome outcome is to engage one another more routinely- and to do so now.

As I indicated before, the artificial device that is Black History month is a perfect vehicle for the beginnings of such a dialogue. And so I urge all of you to use the opportunity of this month to talk with your friends and co-workers on the other side of the divide about racial matters. In this way we can hasten the day when we truly become one America.

It is also clear that if we are to better understand one another the study of black history is essential because the history of black America and the history of this nation are inextricably tied to each other. It is for this reason that the study of black history is important to everyone- black or white. For example, the history of the United States in the nineteenth century revolves around a resolution of the question of how America was going to deal with its black inhabitants. The great debates of that era and the war that was ultimately fought are all centered around the issue of, initially, slavery and then the reconstruction of the vanquished region. A dominant domestic issue throughout the twentieth century was, again, America's treatment of its black citizens. The civil rights movement of the 1950's and 1960's changed America in truly fundamental ways. Americans of all colors were forced to examine basic beliefs and long held views. Even so, most people, who are not conversant with history, still do not really comprehend the way in which that movement transformed America. In racial terms the country that existed before the civil rights struggle is almost unrecognizable to us today. Separate public facilities, separate entrances, poll taxes, legal discrimination, forced labor, in essence an American apartheid, all were part of an America that the movement destroyed. To attend her state’s taxpayer supported college in 1963 my late sister in law had to be escorted to class by United States Marshals and past the state’s governor, George Wallace. That frightening reality seems almost unthinkable to us now. The civil rights movement made America, if not perfect, better.

In addition, the other major social movements of the latter half of the twentieth century- feminism, the nation's treatment of other minority groups, even the anti-war effort- were all tied in some way to the spirit that was set free by the quest for African American equality. Those other movements may have occurred in the absence of the civil rights struggle but the fight for black equality came first and helped to shape the way in which other groups of people came to think of themselves and to raise their desire for equal treatment. Further, many of the tactics that were used by these other groups were developed in the civil rights movement.

And today the link between the black experience and this country is still evident. While the problems that continue to afflict the black community may be more severe, they are an indication of where the rest of the nation may be if corrective measures are not taken. Our inner cities are still too conversant with crime but the level of fear generated by that crime, now found in once quiet, and now electronically padlocked suburbs is alarming and further demonstrates that our past, present and future are linked. It is not safe for this nation to assume that the unaddressed social problems in the poorest parts of our country can be isolated and will not ultimately affect the larger society.

Black history is extremely important because it is American history. Given this, it is in some ways sad that there is a need for a black history month. Though we are all enlarged by our study and knowledge of the roles played by blacks in American history, and though there is a crying need for all of us to know and acknowledge the contributions of black America, a black history month is a testament to the problem that has afflicted blacks throughout our stay in this country. Black history is given a separate, and clearly not equal, treatment by our society in general and by our educational institutions in particular. As a former American history major I am struck by the fact that such a major part of our national story has been divorced from the whole. In law, culture, science, athletics, industry and other fields, knowledge of the roles played by blacks is critical to an understanding of the American experiment. For too long we have been too willing to segregate the study of black history. There is clearly a need at present for a device that focuses the attention of the country on the study of the history of its black citizens. But we must endeavor to integrate black history into our culture and into our curriculums in ways in which it has never occurred before so that the study of black history, and a recognition of the contributions of black Americans, become commonplace. Until that time, Black History Month must remain an important, vital concept. But we have to recognize that until black history is included in the standard curriculum in our schools and becomes a regular part of all our lives, it will be viewed as a novelty, relatively unimportant and not as weighty as so called "real" American history.

I, like many in my generation, have been fortunate in my life and have had a great number of wonderful opportunities. Some may consider me to be a part of black history. But we do a great disservice to the concept of black history recognition if we fail to understand that any success that I have had, cannot be viewed in isolation. I stood, and stand, on the shoulders of many other black Americans. Admittedly, the identities of some of these people, through the passage of time, have become lost to us- the men, and women, who labored long in fields, who were later legally and systemically discriminated against, who were lynched by the hundreds in the century just past and those others who have been too long denied the fruits of our great American culture. The names of too many of these people, these heroes and heroines, are lost to us. But the names of others of these people should strike a resonant chord in the historical ear of all in our nation: Frederick Douglass, W.E.B. DuBois, Walter White, Langston Hughes, Marcus Garvey, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson, Charles Drew, Paul Robeson, Ralph Ellison, James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Vivian Malone, Rosa Parks, Marion Anderson, Emmit Till. These are just some of the people who should be generally recognized and are just some of the people to whom all of us, black and white, owe such a debt of gratitude. It is on their broad shoulders that I stand as I hope that others will some day stand on my more narrow ones.

Black history is a subject worthy of study by all our nation's people. Blacks have played a unique, productive role in the development of America. Perhaps the greatest strength of the United States is the diversity of its people and to truly understand this country one must have knowledge of its constituent parts. But an unstudied, not discussed and ultimately misunderstood diversity can become a divisive force. An appreciation of the unique black past, acquired through the study of black history, will help lead to understanding and true compassion in the present, where it is still so sorely needed, and to a future where all of our people are truly valued.

Thank you.

###

EDIT: Perhaps the tl:dr will overshadow the outrage. ;)

Yeah, I heard that on the radio, at first I was like "Bullshit", cause me and my friends already do this....then about 20 or 30 old dumbass rednecks called in...

And then I was like, you know, he may have a point, lol...

Good for him.

Yeah, I heard that on the radio, at first I was like "Bullshit", cause me and my friends already do this....then about 20 or 30 old dumbass rednecks called in...

And then I was like, you know, he may have a point, lol...

Yep, he does. There's still far too many people who are trapped into a 'Equality means we're all the same" mentality and rage when that simply isn't true. Equality means our differences are what makes us equal.

Yep, he does. There's still far too many people who are trapped into a 'Equality means we're all the same" mentality and rage when that simply isn't true. Equality means our differences are what makes us equal.

its our differences in pay checks education access and job opportunities that make us equal. so don't change that.

I think he made some very salient points about race in America. I think he outlined many important conversations that need to be had.

And I know I'm not American, so you can take that with a dose of salt.

The same holds true in Australia, where we don't even have an Indigenous history month. There are allusions to such things in curricula, but the frequency with which this trickles down into our schools is rare, if ever. Teachers hate teaching it, and then complain when indigenous students don't turn up, or are disruptive, or don't engage with the curriculum.

Let's also fold that New York Post cartoon into this thread:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/19/chimp.cartoon.apology/index.html

How can anyone NOT see how that could be construed as racist? Maybe that wasn't the intent and maybe it was and they're trying to cover their cartoonist's dumb ass, but I'm stunned... Stunned that this actually made it out in the paper without at least one person going, "Whoa! Hold on a second, has anybody actually looked at this cartoon? DO you realize the shitstorm that's gonna hit?"

Yes. They DID realize the shitstorm that was gonna hit. That's what they wanted. Bad publicity is still publicity, isn't it?

Yeah, they totally wouldnt have known that chimp, and monkey were/are racial slurs,:rolleyes:...

Let's also fold that New York Post cartoon into this thread:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/19/chimp.cartoon.apology/index.html

How can anyone NOT see how that could be construed as racist? Maybe that wasn't the intent and maybe it was and they're trying to cover their cartoonist's dumb ass, but I'm stunned... Stunned that this actually made it out in the paper without at least one person going, "Whoa! Hold on a second, has anybody actually looked at this cartoon? DO you realize the shitstorm that's gonna hit?"

Yes. They DID realize the shitstorm that was gonna hit. That's what they wanted. Bad publicity is still publicity, isn't it?

In theory if this were being done about bush it would be okay.
it would be nice to insult someone with out it being considered racial.

However reality is compared to monkeys was a real racial thing and bring sup a lot of negative memories.

its our differences in pay checks education access and job opportunities that make us equal. so don't change that.

Everything changes. Let's hope equality is a little better understood when the demographics shift.

In theory if this were being done about bush it would be okay.
it would be nice to insult someone with out it being considered racial.

However reality is compared to monkeys was a real racial thing and bring sup a lot of negative memories.

Yes, it would be okay to correlate Bush with a monkey because there's no historical racism associated with that correlation. Correlating Obama with that same monkey makes people think of racism. Again, maybe that wasn't the intent, but I find it hard to believe nobody brought it up before publication.

it would be nice to insult someone with out it being considered racial.



You can insult someone without it being racial. Just don't tie it to slurs against that person that have been and are still used to belittle, villify and oppress people of the particular racial group that the person you're insulting belongs to. Unless your aim is to belittle, villify or oppress them.

Yes, it would be okay to correlate Bush with a monkey because there's no historical racism associated with that correlation. Correlating Obama with that same monkey makes people think of racism. Again, maybe that wasn't the intent, but I find it hard to believe nobody brought it up before publication.

then again he is the commander and chief and I would hope beyond terms of race. If someone wants to insult his bill as poorly thought out in a cartoon they should be able to do that. yeah perhaps a different cartoon would have been better, but then again we should be able to insult everyone equally.

then again he is the commander and chief and I would hope beyond terms of race. If someone wants to insult his bill as poorly thought out in a cartoon they should be able to do that. yeah perhaps a different cartoon would have been better, but then again we should be able to insult everyone equally.

I agree, but, The newspaper should be smart enough to realize how this will be perceived to a wider audience...

At best, its Gross Stupidity, at worst, they actually meant what they were implying...

I agree, but, The newspaper should be smart enough to realize how this will be perceived to a wider audience...

At best, its Gross Stupidity, at worst, they actually meant what they were implying...

There's a middle ground. Maybe they didn't intend racism, but knew the cartoon would be misconstrued and printed it anyway to cause this reaction.

There's a middle ground. Maybe they didn't intend racism, but knew the cartoon would be misconstrued and printed it anyway to cause this reaction.

That could be a possibility, maybe even likely considering the nature of Newspapers, however, I would still categorize that in the latter, cause they still wouldve meant it, just not in an overtly malign sense, instead in a "Im seeking sales and Attention" sense, which I would consider just as bad...

then again he is the commander and chief and I would hope beyond terms of race. If someone wants to insult his bill as poorly thought out in a cartoon they should be able to do that. yeah perhaps a different cartoon would have been better, but then again we should be able to insult everyone equally.

You can. But don't get upset if using a symbol that was traditionally and is still being used today to villify people is taken to mean that you are villifying someone by certain groups. Just take it and deal with the shitstorm you created.

That could be a possibility, maybe even likely considering the nature of Newspapers, however, I would still categorize that in the latter, cause they still wouldve meant it, just not in an overtly malign sense, instead in a "Im seeking sales and Attention" sense, which I would consider just as bad...

Is it? Businesses exploit everything else; sex, gender roles, fear, insecurity, etc. Is exploiting a (perfectly understandable) reaction to perceived racism any more disgusting a business practice than any other form of exploitation?

That's more a question for thought than one I expect the answer to because I'm still not sure of the answer myself.

You know something? For some reason these kind discussions put me into a quandary. It seems there is an effort to point out the fact people are black, brown, yellow and white. Then I wonder about King and the color blind society.

I am ever amazed how some people will say that things are as bad as they were 50+ years ago. Nothing has improved. I remember as a kid in "liberal" California where a mixed couple would be the object of jokes and or nasty remarks. People seem to be either not phased by it or it could be they are hiding it.

At my job, the two founders are Dutch and Chinese. Been friends and worked together for over 20 years. In my work area I am the minority being the white guy. There is one other. The rest are Chinese, Ghianan, Indian, Pakistani, Korean, Japanese, Hispanic and a few others I am not sure.

Probably the big thing that separates my job site and the plight of the black community is education. My work environment tends to be highly educated. So is education the answer? I hope so.

Now the question of the legacy of slavery. Times I wonder why this has to be an albatross? Why is it the reason people can't seem to advance(mind you I am over simplifying). What will be accomplished by an official apology for slavery? Is this all of a sudden going to turn peoples attitudes?

There will be racists no matter what. They even exist in the black community. I was a victim of racism in school. I was attracted to a black girl. We got along well and I eventually asked her out. She agreed but later had to decline because her father as she put it "didn't like me" I had never met him. I pressed her about it and she said he was not happy with the idea of her going out with me because I am white.

Damn shame because I thought she was enchanting.

So what do we do? I really don't have answer myself. It seems to be a vicious cycle for the black community. Affirmative action is supposed to open doors to get things like a better education for their children and yet it seems to increase derision. If they were qualified then they wouldn't need AA. But in order to be qualified you have to be able to get the right kind of education.

Education has to be valued. I wonder if it could be argued that Nike and Micheal Jordan hurt the African American community? Remember the old stereotypes of black and basketball?

Talking is nice but unless there is a goal will it accomplish much?

I yield the soap box and will end my mindless ramblings.....

You know something? For some reason these kind discussions put me into a quandary. It seems there is an effort to point out the fact people are black, brown, yellow and white. Then I wonder about King and the color blind society.

King might have had it right. But the people who hijacked his ideals screwed it up by focusing on symbols and ideas that are pretty, but empty from a practical standpoint. Too much focus on "I'm a skin color, respect me!" and not enough on "I'm a human being, treat me as you would yourself."

The current quandaries are basically a endless cycle of negative reinforcement. Stereotypes are held and expected, and they get fulfilled by both external and internal pressures to conform to the stereotypes with only a handful having the determination and luck to get out of it.

That guy did not say anything. A long speech devoid of substance. Just a bunch of psychobabble.

That guy did not say anything. A long speech devoid of substance. Just a bunch of psychobabble.

Perhaps your reading comprehension, and not Attorny General Holder, are to blame. The rest of us seem to have gotten something out of it.

That guy did not say anything. A long speech devoid of substance. Just a bunch of psychobabble.

You should have just said "too long; didn't read."

In theory if this were being done about bush it would be okay.
it would be nice to insult someone with out it being considered racial.

However reality is compared to monkeys was a real racial thing and bring sup a lot of negative memories.

Yes, it would be okay to correlate Bush with a monkey because there's no historical racism associated with that correlation. Correlating Obama with that same monkey makes people think of racism. Again, maybe that wasn't the intent, but I find it hard to believe nobody brought it up before publication.

You can insult someone without it being racial. Just don't tie it to slurs against that person that have been and are still used to belittle, villify and oppress people of the particular racial group that the person you're insulting belongs to. Unless your aim is to belittle, villify or oppress them.

then again he is the commander and chief and I would hope beyond terms of race. If someone wants to insult his bill as poorly thought out in a cartoon they should be able to do that. yeah perhaps a different cartoon would have been better, but then again we should be able to insult everyone equally.

TBH, I think the cartoon was stupid and, upon reflection, can see why some have objected to it as racist, but I must admit I didn't find it so as a matter of first impression.

As greed and death seems to be saying, it was common to compare Dubya to a chimp. (Clueless George Goes To War (http://www.amazon.com/Clueless-George-Goes-War-Bagley/dp/0974486051) is hilarious!)

The cartoon was clearly poorly thought out and does echo racial stereotypes, but I honestly don't care about it that much.

Its nice when everyone agrees.

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=ce688a73-1019-485c-886f-7bbbda916e11

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTY0YzM2Y2I5YzIyZDdkMGRjZjRiYjY1MmIyY2QxNTI=

Its nice when everyone agrees.

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=ce688a73-1019-485c-886f-7bbbda916e11

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTY0YzM2Y2I5YzIyZDdkMGRjZjRiYjY1MmIyY2QxNTI=

Two right wing blogs pretending that race isnt an issue anymore means everyone disagrees with Holder?

No. No it doesnt.

The New republic is a right wing blog? Hmmm....Not sure you mean that.... Or know what you're talking about......

You know something? For some reason these kind discussions put me into a quandary. It seems there is an effort to point out the fact people are black, brown, yellow and white. Then I wonder about King and the color blind society.

I am ever amazed how some people will say that things are as bad as they were 50+ years ago. Nothing has improved. I remember as a kid in "liberal" California where a mixed couple would be the object of jokes and or nasty remarks. People seem to be either not phased by it or it could be they are hiding it.

At my job, the two founders are Dutch and Chinese. Been friends and worked together for over 20 years. In my work area I am the minority being the white guy. There is one other. The rest are Chinese, Ghianan, Indian, Pakistani, Korean, Japanese, Hispanic and a few others I am not sure.

Probably the big thing that separates my job site and the plight of the black community is education. My work environment tends to be highly educated. So is education the answer? I hope so.

Now the question of the legacy of slavery. Times I wonder why this has to be an albatross? Why is it the reason people can't seem to advance(mind you I am over simplifying). What will be accomplished by an official apology for slavery? Is this all of a sudden going to turn peoples attitudes?

There will be racists no matter what. They even exist in the black community. I was a victim of racism in school. I was attracted to a black girl. We got along well and I eventually asked her out. She agreed but later had to decline because her father as she put it "didn't like me" I had never met him. I pressed her about it and she said he was not happy with the idea of her going out with me because I am white.

Damn shame because I thought she was enchanting.

So what do we do? I really don't have answer myself. It seems to be a vicious cycle for the black community. Affirmative action is supposed to open doors to get things like a better education for their children and yet it seems to increase derision. If they were qualified then they wouldn't need AA. But in order to be qualified you have to be able to get the right kind of education.

Education has to be valued. I wonder if it could be argued that Nike and Micheal Jordan hurt the African American community? Remember the old stereotypes of black and basketball?

Talking is nice but unless there is a goal will it accomplish much?

I yield the soap box and will end my mindless ramblings.....

I am glad you got on the soap box and shared your "ramblings." Part of Holder's point is that we need to have these discussions honestly and in the open.

A few specific comments:

1. Holder did not say "that things are as bad as they were 50+ years ago. Nothing has improved." His comments recognized we have come a long, long way and were much more nuanced (emphasis added):

We commemorated five years ago, the 50th anniversary of the landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision. And though the world in which we now live is fundamentally different than that which existed then, this nation has still not come to grips with its racial past nor has it been willing to contemplate, in a truly meaningful way, the diverse future it is fated to have. To our detriment, this is typical of the way in which this nation deals with issues of race....

As a nation we have done a pretty good job in melding the races in the workplace. We work with one another, lunch together and, when the event is at the workplace during work hours or shortly thereafter, we socialize with one another fairly well, irrespective of race. And yet even this interaction operates within certain limitations. We know, by "American instinct" and by learned behavior, that certain subjects are off limits and that to explore them risks, at best embarrassment, and, at worst, the questioning of one’s character. And outside the workplace the situation is even more bleak in that there is almost no significant interaction between us. On Saturdays and Sundays America in the year 2009 does not, in some ways, differ significantly from the country that existed some fifty years ago. This is truly sad. Given all that we as a nation went through during the civil rights struggle it is hard for me to accept that the result of those efforts was to create an America that is more prosperous, more positively race conscious and yet is voluntarily socially segregated.

2. Holder has a legitimate point about social segregation and segregation of schools, housing, etc. A recent report from The Civil Rights Project (http://www.civilrightsproject.ucla.edu/news/pressreleases/pressrelease20090114-report.html) has noted:

[I]t would be wrong to assume that our nation has now realized Dr. King's dream and created a society where race no longer matters. In fact, the report concludes the opposite: the U.S. continues to move backward toward increasing minority segregation in highly unequal schools; the job situation remains especially bleak for American blacks, and Latinos have a college completion rate that is shockingly low. At the same time, very little is being done to address large scale challenges such as continuing discrimination in the housing and home finance markets, among other differences across racial lines.


For example:

Very large progress was made during the civil rights era but it is slipping away year by year. Since the Supreme Court reversed course in 1991 and authorized return to segregated neighborhood schools, there has been an increase in segregation every year, particularly for black and Latino students. The report shows that 40% of Latinos and 39% of blacks now attend intensely segregated schools. The average black and Latino student is now in a school that has nearly 60% of students from families who are near or below the poverty line. These doubly segregated schools by race and poverty have weaker teaching forces, much more student instability, more students who come to school not speaking English and many other characteristics related to family and neighborhood poverty and isolation that make for challenging educational environments. These are the schools where much of the nation's dropout crisis is concentrated. More than 40 years after passage of the Fair Housing Act, there continues to be almost no serious enforcement against widespread housing discrimination, which impacts the segregation in districts with neighborhood school policies, and is making it difficult to maintain integration in suburbia.

Unfortunately, I can post a lot more about continuing segregation and even resegregation in the U.S. if needed.

3. FWIW, Holder specifically recognized that affirmative action is a legitimate subject for debate:

. We still speak too much of "them" and not "us". There can, for instance, be very legitimate debate about the question of affirmative action. This debate can, and should, be nuanced, principled and spirited. But the conversation that we now engage in as a nation on this and other racial subjects is too often simplistic and left to those on the extremes who are not hesitant to use these issues to advance nothing more than their own, narrow self interest.

The New republic is a right wing blog?

Arguably. Or at least that writer. And even if theyre not, your two sources doesnt indicate that everyone "disagrees" with Holder. Many do agree with him. Im one of them.

Hmmm....Not sure you mean that....

Wouldnt say it if I didnt mean it.

Or know what you're talking about......

This is cute considering your prior post.

As greed and death seems to be saying, it was common to compare Dubya to a chimp. (Clueless George Goes To War (http://www.amazon.com/Clueless-George-Goes-War-Bagley/dp/0974486051) is hilarious!)

True. But until there's a historical context for comparing white people to monkeys as a means of racist propaganda, then they're still not equivalent socially.

The cartoon was clearly poorly thought out and does echo racial stereotypes, but I honestly don't care about it that much.

Especially since it was apparently meant to be Congress in the picture, them being the ones who actually write the bills and all. But it still shows a lack of historical awareness and basic thinking skills.

But then again, it is the Post.

EDIT: Perhaps the tl:dr will overshadow the outrage. ;)

Yeah, a little. How come you didn't add bold and red bits to the important parts like you usually do?

Yeah, a little. How come you didn't add bold and red bits to the important parts like you usually do?

:D

I started to, but found myself highlighting practically the whole thing as "important." :wink:

Yeah, a little. How come you didn't add bold and red bits to the important parts like you usually do?

well naturally its so much work Cat-tribe will be paying us to read it hence why we don't have a summery thing at the bottom

The New republic is a right wing blog? Hmmm....Not sure you mean that.... Or know what you're talking about......

TNR alternates between being the left edge of the right wing and the right edge of the left wing depending on the issue. If you've defined the political spectrum with NRO at 10 and TNR at -10, then The Nation is at like i±3 and the political calculus gets wonky.

as to the OP, Holder just went up in my opinion. Clever man. I think Clarence Page said something similar but less sweeping a couple of years ago.

Of course we are. This isn't news, what's news is that a public figure has the balls to admit it.

Holder is right. And the fact that everybody in the media is screaming and stamping about how "He called white people a bad name!!!" :mad: instead of talking about race issues pretty much proves his point, imo.

Holder is right. And the fact that everybody in the media is screaming and stamping about how "He called white people a bad name!!!" :mad: instead of talking about race issues pretty much proves his point, imo.I can't wait for the day when people no longer use the "defense" that there are "certain words and topics" that I can't talk about because I'm a "whitey". :mad:

I'm going to start claiming my native American ancestry so people can't say it any more. "Oh, you think your people got screwed? I'm Native American:, you asshole, and we know all about being screwed by the "white man." :D :D

As an American Citizen (Currently, I am working on that flaw) I totally agree with what he said. We are cowards when it comes to race and equality. I take it further, we are cowards when it comes to sexual equality, between men and women and women and women and men and men and women and women that are men... and you get my point!

Black, white...what does it matter? We're all Americans, and more to the point, we're all PEOPLE. Skin colour makes no difference in who were are as people; it is our choices and behavior that defines us, not our physical attributes.

I am glad you got on the soap box and shared your "ramblings." Part of Holder's point is that we need to have these discussions honestly and in the open.

A few specific comments:

1. Holder did not say "that things are as bad as they were 50+ years ago. Nothing has improved." His comments recognized we have come a long, long way and were much more nuanced (emphasis added):


I could have wrote that better. I was speaking of other people and not him.


We commemorated five years ago, the 50th anniversary of the landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision. And though the world in which we now live is fundamentally different than that which existed then, this nation has still not come to grips with its racial past nor has it been willing to contemplate, in a truly meaningful way, the diverse future it is fated to have. To our detriment, this is typical of the way in which this nation deals with issues of race....


How exactly are we supposed to come to grips with the past? What exactly are we supposed to contemplate our diverse future? We are already living it. The rather large influx from central Asia continues and I haven't heard of many issues. One of the things I will grant the Indians is the way they throw themselves into the community. They get involved.

As a nation we have done a pretty good job in melding the races in the workplace. We work with one another, lunch together and, when the event is at the workplace during work hours or shortly thereafter, we socialize with one another fairly well, irrespective of race. And yet even this interaction operates within certain limitations. We know, by "American instinct" and by learned behavior, that certain subjects are off limits and that to explore them risks, at best embarrassment, and, at worst, the questioning of one’s character. And outside the workplace the situation is even more bleak in that there is almost no significant interaction between us.

I would not call that a racial issue. Many people don't interact outside of work. Many people have their mates and then their work mates.

On Saturdays and Sundays America in the year 2009 does not, in some ways, differ significantly from the country that existed some fifty years ago. This is truly sad. Given all that we as a nation went through during the civil rights struggle it is hard for me to accept that the result of those efforts was to create an America that is more prosperous, more positively race conscious and yet is voluntarily socially segregated.


I would argue in some cases that is motivated by the fact we try not to offend people. For example the question of language. We try to make sure that everybody has forms, etc in their own language. Remember Senator Hayakawa and his english as the offical language effort? I remember him saying that problems happen when people speak different languages. People don't communicate and tend to congregate in pockets of similar languages.

2. Holder has a legitimate point about social segregation and segregation of schools, housing, etc. A recent report from The Civil Rights Project (http://www.civilrightsproject.ucla.edu/news/pressreleases/pressrelease20090114-report.html) has noted:

[I]t would be wrong to assume that our nation has now realized Dr. King's dream and created a society where race no longer matters. In fact, the report concludes the opposite: the U.S. continues to move backward toward increasing minority segregation in highly unequal schools; the job situation remains especially bleak for American blacks, and Latinos have a college completion rate that is shockingly low. At the same time, very little is being done to address large scale challenges such as continuing discrimination in the housing and home finance markets, among other differences across racial lines.



but is that because there is an attitude of there are too many *insert race* over there or is it a case of people tend to be about their school and screw the rest. Over here we had to close a couple schools and it was open warfare. A top rated schools was actually closed. A case of there being a second good school near by made it happen. The thinking was that they could spred the "smart kids" around problem is the social economics of that school; the majority went to private. Probably different now since the economy is in free fall.

So what do you do with a school that is in a poor neighborhood? Unfortunately people bitch about taxes and there isn't a large amount of money in the school system(with California's economy, where did the money go? Speaking of before the collapse that is).

Part of the problem for poor schools is the fact they are in poor neighborhoods. Is this by design or due to the fact housing etc. is cheaper?

What do you do? Increase taxes?


For example:

Very large progress was made during the civil rights era but it is slipping away year by year. Since the Supreme Court reversed course in 1991 and authorized return to segregated neighborhood schools, there has been an increase in segregation every year, particularly for black and Latino students.


This is a mixed bag. There was one school that was discriminating again minorities(I can't think of the name right now but I can get it if its an issue). It was a good school so people rightfully raised hell. As a resolution it was decided there would be a breakdown by the races of the area. There would be a cap at one point if one particular races was large. Over time, Asians and Hispanics hit that cap and it was thrown out because it was discriminatory to deny them. Mind you it's only one case. I just happened to remember it so it's not an example of everything. Just sharing a story.

The report shows that 40% of Latinos and 39% of blacks now attend intensely segregated schools. The average black and Latino student is now in a school that has nearly 60% of students from families who are near or below the poverty line. These doubly segregated schools by race and poverty have weaker teaching forces, much more student instability, more students who come to school not speaking English and many other characteristics related to family and neighborhood poverty and isolation that make for challenging educational environments. These are the schools where much of the nation's dropout crisis is concentrated. More than 40 years after passage of the Fair Housing Act, there continues to be almost no serious enforcement against widespread housing discrimination, which impacts the segregation in districts with neighborhood school policies, and is making it difficult to maintain integration in suburbia.

Again is this because of economics or a design by race?

It takes taxes to bring up those schools. Are people against it because it's taxes or is it because that is money for "those people."

There are cases were work is being done. My kids school has a rather large Hispanic population. The school is rated in California(for whatever that is worth considering California's education levels compared to the rest of the US).

Part of the problem is the view of education and it's value. Some of my daughters friends are hispanic and I have seen not much value is placed on it. Mind you I am speaking of these cases and I don't have data to suggest they all do this. In the matter of her non-hispanic friends. The families push education rather hard. The kids are made to do their homework and one or both parents are involved. A Jfriend was involved in the PTA at one school once commented that the involvement of parents were noticiably different. Whites and Asians were readily involved be it homework or helping at the school. Only a small number of Hispanics would help out much less be involved with their childrens homework. Again. Only one observation for one school.

Again. I am only speaking for my local area and not for the whole.

Unfortunately, I can post a lot more about continuing segregation and even resegregation in the U.S. if needed.

Again I would ask is this by design or other factors?

3. FWIW, Holder specifically recognized that affirmative action is a legitimate subject for debate:

. We still speak too much of "them" and not "us". There can, for instance, be very legitimate debate about the question of affirmative action. This debate can, and should, be nuanced, principled and spirited. But the conversation that we now engage in as a nation on this and other racial subjects is too often simplistic and left to those on the extremes who are not hesitant to use these issues to advance nothing more than their own, narrow self interest.

Race is a double edged sword. Why do we speak about African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Asian-Americans, European-Americans....

Isn't that already a segmentation of the people? Why don't we simply talk about Americans? I guess that would not work because people then would classify them as poor and you know those poor people......

Sometimes I think the color blind society is impossible to achieve. It maybe never possible to achieve. People seem to have an "us versus them" mentality. For example, you see that in many issues. For example the younger generation thinking rationing of medical is a good idea as old people shouldn't be covered for much.

I will ask a question.

Can we integrate society with capitalism?

I think it is absolutely taboo to speak of anything even remotely related in the media. Does anything ever come out of those discussions.

The hater keep on hating

The people who don't care still don't care

The people who feel wronged still feel wronged

The people who say we made mistakes but let's get on with it same the same thing afterwords.

Generally I'd say yes, we're cowardly on racial matters. Especially the racists. From "Everyone is a little bit racist!" to "I don't hate their race, I hate their culture!" to "Racism isn't a big deal in this country," there's this atmosphere of obvious closet-racism, or bigotry in other forms. The "hating Muslims isn't racism!" argument is always rich, coming (just by coincidence) mostly from Muslim-haters trying to imply that their hatred is somehow not as bigoted or irrational.

I think it is absolutely taboo to speak of anything even remotely related in the media. Does anything ever come out of those discussions.

The hater keep on hating

The people who don't care still don't care

The people who feel wronged still feel wronged

The people who say we made mistakes but let's get on with it same the same thing afterwords.

Something about a candle and a curse comes to mind.

Trostia is that an attack an avenue q? Cause I'd be genuninely surprised by that.

Trostia is that an attack an avenue q? Cause I'd be genuninely surprised by that.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Resurrection!

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/24/wall.holder/

Does his position or his color give him the bravado to think that he can get away with calling us cowards? At least the author isn't slow to suggest that his color might give him some advantage over other people...of different colors.

...Right. I love this...what is it, anyway? Some sort of a failed refutation?

They (Democrats) point fingers, threaten and name-call without offering real solutions or substantive conversation.Lolwherez?!

Does this person have a persecution complex?
It is a challenge for each of us, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, to go outside our comfort zone and reach out to someone "different" from ourselves (though I've done it my whole life).That's nice. :rolleyes:

"It's a challenge to everybody else, but I've already been doing it!"
Holder offered more hate veiled in subtle anger.Calling Americans out as the cowards that we are in regards to the issues of race is "hate", now?
Oh noez, AG Holder is telling the truth about America, we gotta stop him, before people actually realize that he's telling the truth! :eek:

to be honest you want cowards on race look at the french they refuse to even count how many minorities they have.